14 ms·

Leaker reveals which Pixels are vulnerable to Cellebrite phone hacking

464 points by akyuu 1y ago

mugivarra69 1y ago
[dead]
gnabgib 1y ago
Source: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45765858 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45765858
derbOac 1y ago
They couldn't answer the question most on my mind: "We’ve reached out to Google to inquire about why a custom ROM created by volunteers is more resistant to industrial phone hacking than the official Pixel OS. We’ll update this article if Google has anything to say."
- bigyabai 1y ago
  Short answer: Google is a business that can be compelled by the federal government in ways that nonprofits are resistant to. Ron Wyden identified one of these weaknesses in 2023: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/12/apple-admits-to-secretly-giving-governments-push-notification-data/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/12/apple-admits-to-...
  - windexh8er 1y ago
    Let's be very clear: this is still Google's choice. Google could build a phone that they can't be compelled to do anything to after the phone is sold to their customer, but Google alone chooses to not invest in the security of the phones they're selling to their customers. Because: what is good for the government is now equally good for Google. Do we not remember how Google immediately enabled TLS everywhere, internally, post-Snowden [0]? Remember when Google was "outraged"? Where are those people now? They surely don't work at Google anymore. It's amazing how enshittified Google and Apple have become in a decade. [0] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-24751821 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-24751821
    - harambae 1y ago
      > how enshittified Google and Apple have become I don’t know about pop-ups or whatever, but as far as mobile security Apple appears to be running the table. Last cellebrite leak showed they couldn’t do anything in BFU, and you can tell Siri to put it back in BFU without hands while being arrested.
      - bigyabai 1y ago
        Cellebrite is like the Kmart Blue Light Special of Israeli spyware, when you compare it to Greykey and NSO Group offerings. I would not use their capabilities as the be-all end-all.
        dylan604 1y ago
        > the Kmart Blue Light Special Hello fellow old timer. Do kids today even get this reference other than possibly just on context? My other favorite old store was a place called Gibsons where their stores signage had each upper case letter as an individual square. After it went under, more than one location became SBINGOS joints where first/last squares were no longer lit.
        doodlebugging 1y ago
        Another old-timer here who grew up with Gibsons. It was the only grocery store in town back in the days before WalMart invaded. Ammunition, camping gear, dry goods, garden supplies, farm and ranch supplies, blue jeans, shirts, ties, overalls, etc. They sold everything under one roof in a town of 2500. I thought they had all been swallowed up and shut down until I moved up here to N Texas and was surprised to find a Gibsons here. It took me a while before curiosity took hold but several years later I visited the store, approx 2003-2004ish, and found they still used old-school cash registers, had no UPC scanning capability and every item had a price tag stuck to it. I think they have since moved into the more modern world locally but the store is still there and is a good source for items that you used to need to go to the town's original hardware stores to find. Some of the items on the shelves may have been in inventory here since the 1970's or 1980's. It's a bit like a time machine where you can get obsolete stuff in a pinch if it is still in stock. I worked slapping price tags on items in KMart back in the day so I too understand the reference. Glad I'm done with that.
  - GeekyBear 1y ago
    No American company has a choice when the Feds want data stored on a company's server. That doesn't stop Apple or any other company from designing devices that attempt to keep prying eyes out of the data stored on your device.
    - bitwize 1y ago
      The government has ways of twisting the arms of uncooperative people/organizations into providing all the backdoors they need. Everything from increased tax and regulatory scrutiny to "discovering" CSAM on executives' computers or phones. The government does what it wants because it's the government. Mere laws generally don't stand in its way for long.
      - gleenn 1y ago
        I think this is a very negative idea to promote: that laws should can be subverted. Everyone should believe that laws work and when they don't we should work to fix that, not assume that it can never be fixed.
        thisonetimeonly 1y ago
        It’s the truth, however. Blinding yourself to it won’t make governments any less inclined to bend (or outright break) any laws they deem necessary to achieve their goals. We should work to fix that, no question about it, but ignorance will not by itself improve the situation in imaginable any way.
        underlipton 1y ago
        I think it's healthy to imagine how authorities might abuse power and under what impetus, in order to head off those abuses. Laws have been subverted in the past, so it's rational to assume that they might be subverted in the future. This is actually a cornerstone of any effort to fix issues.
        clanky 1y ago
        It can be fixed, but not through the same protocols and institutions that have been compromised.
  - kangs 1y ago
    google even has specially signed fw that let you root the device and unlock anything that doesn't rely on the passcode. secureboot passing and all. i can't imagine that the nsa doesnt have them. after that you just gotta crack the usually very simple passcode. wouldny be surprised if thats what cellrite has lol.
- IncreasePosts 1y ago
  Is grapheheOS actually harder to hack or does cellebrite just not put a lot of effort into supporting it because the very low odds of LEs running into one in the wild?
  - markus_zhang 1y ago
    I read from an old HN post that three letter agencies hate graphen OS. The author heard it from defcon or some similar conference. I couldn’t find the post anyway :/ I think it is buried under one of the posts that discuss Defcon and Blackhat.
    - overfeed 1y ago
      Wouldn't it be a total mindfuck if it turns out that Graphene is less secure[1] than stock Pixel, and this is all part of an ANOM-style honeypot operation that has Feds hyping it up, to trick interesting targets into adopting a less-effective security posture. 1. Such as via slower 0-day responses, for instance. This is a thought experiment, I'm nor alleging that this is what it is.
      - hollerith 1y ago
        Anyone can build GrapheneOS from source code, which I doubt is true of any law-enforcement honeypot.
        embedding-shape 1y ago
        Exactly what someone who sets up a honeypot targeting nerds would want you to think.
        wakawaka28 1y ago
        You can actually build it. But who has time to audit all that stuff? Then you know, there could be firmware hacks that make all the system-level backdoors a moot point.
- LoganDark 1y ago
  GrapheneOS makes security trade-off that are inconvenient to the user. This results in a far more secure device, but nonetheless a device that the general public would find far more annoying. Google would lose a proportion of its user base by implementing the same protections. Example: https://old.reddit.com/r/GooglePixel/comments/ytk1ng/grapheneos_vs_stock_android https://old.reddit.com/r/GooglePixel/comments/ytk1ng/graphen... Also Google Pay is missing.
  - zb3 1y ago
    Which particular thing you consider inconvenient or even annoying? You can even install Google Play there. I see just one minor tradeoff - no face unlock.
    - MrDrMcCoy 1y ago
      That is a major feature. It prevents coerced unlocking.
      - tranq_cassowary 1y ago
        That's not the reasoning. The reasoning is lack of proper hardware support on supported devices for secure face unlock. Coerced unlocking also holds true for fingerprint in some instances and that's worked around by using 2FA (fingerprint + password/PIN).
    - LoganDark 1y ago
      Google OS-level integration is absent, and while Google Play Services can be installed, you're still missing things like Chromecast. Also, there's more manual configuration (although I don't remember exactly what, I've never used GrapheneOS). A lot of stuff you do get for free, but not all of it, and stuff that's been removed as a "feature" isn't always stuff that nobody wants.
      - _lyxd 1y ago
        > stuff that's been removed as a "feature" isn't always stuff that nobody wants. Graphene isn't made to cater to what everyone wants. Face ID and fingerprint unlocking so clearly have no place in a hardened OS. "Google OS-level integration is absent" should not be suprising. This said, you ought to be able to have BFU security with stock Android and it's embarrassing Google ships stock vulnerable.
- colordrops 1y ago
  I'd almost want to avoid GrapheneOS because it gets so much attention from law enforcement that it's probably a big target for various agencies to find vulnerabilities in.
  - giantg2 1y ago
    This doesn't make sense. If you're worried about the government targeting you, then what is the alternative... less hardened phones? At least Graphene will protect you better than the stock OS. If you're really that concerned then you shouldn't use anything going through cell tower (or take extreme precautions when doing so).
    - colordrops 1y ago
      I did say "almost". But as you mention there aren't many alternative. It would be a better world if there were several options besides just Graphene that prioritize security.
      - chasil 1y ago
        What they are doing is difficult and expensive. The talent pool that is willing to work in a nonprofit is not likely large.
      - subscribed 1y ago
        In reality you have iPhones (in lockdown mode meaning you mist throw some of the usability away) or GrapheneOS if you prefer android. No other hardware and software solutions come close. Cellebrite matrix shows it pretty well (and from late 2024 cellebrite cannot even extract entire phone form the unlocked GOS.
  - Xss3 1y ago
    More attention than stock android?
- tranq_cassowary 1y ago
  GrapheneOS isn't made by volunteers. They have a team of around 10 paid developers. They are a nonprofit foundation that receives donations and uses those to pay developers, infrastructure etc. Ars Technica has update its article to rectify that mistake. It doesn't mention that anymore.
  - isodev 1y ago
    It’s still a valid question. We have this huge corporation that’s doing so many things, constantly lobbying for policy, obscene revenue all while people are exploiting the apk out of their OS. In fact, looking at the news this week, the same question applies to Microsoft and Apple as well. Are they too big and distracted to care about security?
    - saagarjha 1y ago
      No, it's just that the user will not put up with a system like GrapheneOS.
      - Sanzig 1y ago
        How so? Graphene is perfectly useable for a non-technical user. And once you install Play Store, it's almost indistinguishable UX-wise from any other Android phone.
        udev4096 1y ago
        He's a fucking ignorant normie. He has never even tried to install GOS because if he did, he would know how almost identical the experience is with Android and there are no privileged google processes running on your phone which not only hog the resources but sends every single bit of information about your whole life
        saagarjha 11mo ago
        I have tried installing it, for your information
- FrequentLurker 1y ago
  So much for all the security posturing by Google lol.
  - subscribed 1y ago
    I mean, hardware is great, it's literally the only safe and secure hardware for AOSP. Samsung are mostly security theater, all the other brands are shockingly bad.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- lucasluitjes 1y ago
  GrapheneOS is basically the Android equivalent of iOS Lockdown mode. Considering how the threat landscape has changed, it would be nice if Google offered this itself. Or became a long-term sponsor of GrapheneOS, seeing how great a job they've been doing.
  - subscribed 1y ago
    Not really. iOS in lockdown mode has multiple features disabled (or crippled, depending on how you look at it), while GrapheneOS is just..... secure by design with secure defaults. https://support.apple.com/en-us/105120 https://support.apple.com/en-us/105120 In iPhone also you cannot just turn on/off/adjust these protections one by one, it's all or nothing.
    - mike_d 11mo ago
      > OS in lockdown mode has multiple features disabled [...] while GrapheneOS is just... ...disabling features. Android Auto, Google Pay, enhanced GPS, SafetyNet, push notifications, support for any apps requiring device integrity, etc. They aren't redesigning and re-implementing these features securely, they are reducing attack surface just like lockdown mode.
      - subscribed 11mo ago
        >> [...] while GrapheneOS is just... > ...disabling features. Android Auto, Google Pay, enhanced GPS, This is broadly false, not just misleading but false. - Android Auto: working wired or wireless without problems - Google Pay: app vendor choice to put it behind DEVICE_INTEGRITY check, not OS vendor. NFC payments work just fine with other vendors. - enhanced GPS: whatever that means, is most likely false. Users don't experience any issues with GPS > SafetyNet SafetyNet Attestation API is deprecated and no longer available so also not true. But from the context I think you meant Play Integrity API. This is Google Services feature, not AOSP feature. GrapheneOS is an AOSP-based system. GOS passes MEETS_BASIC_INTEGRITY. It doesn't pass DEVICE_INTEGRITY because it doesn't run privileged, unbound Google Surveillance Services (according to Google 10 year old phone not updated for 8 years is more secure as long as it allows Google Services sniff everywhere). It cannot pass MEETS_STRONG_INTEGRITY they way Google requires it because AFAIR that thing is signed by the TPM. It does provide an alternative STRONG_INTEGRITY assurance based on the AOSP Hardware Attestation API (which many developers in fact use). > push notifications, This is so false it should be called out as a lie, not just a falsehood. Reliable push notifications are supported both in the standard way (if user decides to do so), via GCM, or in one in the alternative ways, for example UP, exactly like on the standard Android phone. > support for any apps requiring device integrity, etc. This is also a lie or ignorance. See above. For example Starling Bank has explicitly implemented GOS Hardware Attestation API. > They aren't redesigning and re-implementing these features securely, What do you mean? hardened_malloc? Memory tagging for entire kernel? automatic switch to BFU after timeout? USB data blocked by default with the screen locked? Network permission toggle? Storage/contact scopes? Critical patches released seemingly _months_ before the major vendors? LOL. Half of your claims are either lies or misrepresentation. The other half (Google Pay and Play Integrity) are vendor functionality. They would have to spoof (fake) it - exactly like rooted phones do (and which can often be detected). Or allow Google in the privileged mode, which is not going to happen. That has been explained by the development team _so_ many times already. They cannot "re-implement" a feature that *GOOGLE* offers to the developers using *Google store*. That would for example require using leaked private key. They are challenging Google's stance on Play Integrity with EU commission, because there is no technical reason to bar the safe hardware+OS passing a standard AOSP hw attestation. This is an AOSP OS, not a hacked Google Pixel ROM. > they are reducing attack surface just like lockdown mode. They are reducing attack surfaces without locking down functionality. Google deciding to not support the competition is not GOS locking somehow down. Entirely different from Apple's lockdown mode. QED. I wouldn't mind listing _downsides_ of using GOS as a first/main device (because there are many), but I prefer facts over confabulations :)
- markstos 1y ago
  One idea is that the stock rom by Google may phone home even when locked. Perhaps with a malicious WiFi network, attackers can exploit the phone through a flaw in DNS or HTTP handling. If GrapheneOS skips contacting remote servers like that, they would not be vulnerable. It would be a story of Google prioritizing tracking over security.
- bitfilped 1y ago
  Googles goal as a company is to raise their stock price, graphenes goal is to make a secure phone OS. It really shouldn't be surprising to anyone that graphene is doing a better job.
aussieguy1234 1y ago
I've set up GrapheneOS on my Pixel with 2FA fingerprint + PIN unlock. No way will anyone be getting into it without my cooperation. My only issue was less compatibility with my local emergency services, since they can't see me on a map for some reason if I call from a GOS phone. My solution to that was a second Pixel as an emergency phone - one with the stock OS, that I'll swap sims with and take with me when hiking, stand up paddle bording and doing other activities that carry risk. This phone has no sensitive information in it. I also have a PLB for added protection.
- fluidcruft 1y ago
  Is there anything actually preventing Samsung or another vendor from adopting GrapheneOS's security innovations?
  - immibis 1y ago
    Probably their legal obligation to comply with secret government orders (FISA, NSL etc - the government probably already said don't make unhackable phones or else) and their informal wish to remain on the regime's good side.
    - astrange 11mo ago
      Samsung is not an American company and what you're claiming would conflict with other countries' laws, namely EU Cyber Resilience Act.
  - joemazerino 1y ago
    The hardware Samsung provides is not up to spec.
  - russianGuy83829 1y ago
    GrapheneOS is seemingly working with an OEM to make a GrapheneOS smartphone. Its probably not samsung, but would still be an established vendor
chaps 1y ago
Here's the full document without the blurriness: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/24833831-cellebrite-android-document-april-2024/ https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/24833831-cellebrite-... (it's been available since 2024 -- found by searching for "android os access support matrix" on documentcloud)
- Infernal 1y ago
  The point here is that the doc you linked is a year and a half old, this (if real) is much newer. Security is a constant arms race between attackers and defenders, nothing is static so updates of this nature are always welcome.
  - chaps 1y ago
    I'm not disputing that. :)
    - Infernal 1y ago
      Fair, I suppose I've misunderstood. I took "it's been available since 2024" as a dismissal of this new information.
      - chaps 1y ago
        Also fair! I think "leaker" is just bristly to me in this context, when there's a nearly identical version of it just hanging out for folk to find. But also just a hope that some folk might poke around documentcloud for similar documents lying around. Lots of newsworthy gems in there just waiting to be picked up and this's a good example.
- Squealer2642 1y ago
  This one doesn't have Pixel 9's so the image in the article has been updated a bit.
- sciencejerk 1y ago
  [flagged]
c420 1y ago
>However, rogueFed also called out the meeting organizer by name (the second screenshot, which we are not reposting). The FBI?
- driverdan 1y ago
  No, the Cellebrite rep Alex Rankmore. The screenshot is still in the thread farther down.
gnarlouse 1y ago
Wow. I was just thinking about jumping ship from iPhone to Pixel.
- dns_snek 1y ago
  All iPhones were vulnerable according to the last available iOS support matrix.
  - runlevel1 1y ago
    That's not quite correct, but you're not a million miles off: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/24833832-cellebrite-ios-document-april-2024/ https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/24833832-cellebrite-... To calibrate your sense of time, the iPhone 15 had been released in September 2023 and that doc is dated April 2024, so ~6 months. And just for completeness, here was the Android doc that leaked at the same time: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/24833831-cellebrite-android-document-april-2024/ https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/24833831-cellebrite-...
    - dns_snek 1y ago
      For iOS there's a slightly newer one released in July 2024 which indicated iPhone 15 support too: https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/14344-cellebrite-premium-july-2024-documentation https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/14344-cellebrite-premium-ju...
      - kotaKat 1y ago
        Honestly seems like if you just stay on the latest-and-greatest you'll stay ahead of Cellebrite long enough. I'll be amused when Apple finally drops a portless iPhone as the next step ahead. (Apple already has their Qi2/Magsafe setup, and they already have been using 60GHz wireless USB for quite some time now internally with the Apple Watch for diagnostics and service management since Series 7.)
        1y ago
zb3 1y ago
Another great thing about GrapheneOS (besides security) is that Google Play Services can be installed without elevated privileges and even in a separate profile which can't run in the background. This makes the phone suitable for both normal usage and for those cases where you need to use some "official" app. It passes Play Integrity "MEETS_BASIC_INTEGRITY" but of course doesn't pass higher levels but not because it's insecure - it's because it refuses to grant GMS elevated privileges. Good news is that banking apps can whitelist GrapheneOS using standard Android attestation mechanism (and some already did).
- ForHackernews 1y ago
  https://xkcd.com/1200/ https://xkcd.com/1200/
  - throawayonthe 1y ago
    this is actually not the case on modern android lol
    - ashirviskas 1y ago
      How?
    - ForHackernews 1y ago
      >Thanks to GrapheneOS, I keep my banking app, my gmail, my social media, my candy crush, and my nudes together with google play services monitoring it all safely sandboxed away from the private profile with my F-droid notes app and an SSH terminal.
- gilrim 1y ago
  My bank (largest local in my country) shipped a beta version of their app where my pixel8p with grapheneos was flagged as insecure this summer. Called them up, explained the issue and a couple days later a new build without the issue appeared for install.
j1elo 1y ago
> Notably, the Pixel 10 series is moving away from physical SIM cards. Is it? I hadn't followed news of the new Pixels. I don't like the idea of modernizing this and going full eSIM. It will introduce a lot of new friction, somehow I don't doubt it. Just now arrived to Mexico for a quick trip and grabbed a prepaid SIM from a 7-11 in the airport. All quick and simple. I doubt things would be so seamless when not having a SIM tray in the phone. Having to go through an official process to register a new card, ID oneself, hope to not have any incompatibility with the eSIM slots in your phone (admittedly I don't know how this works)... vs. just paying MXN100 and leave the store with a ready to use number.
- stackskipton 1y ago
  eSIM can be QR code so if they wanted, Mexican vendor just pay and show QR code for you to scan.
  - purpleidea 1y ago
    The unfortunate problem with eSIM is that you can't swap it between phones.
    - prima-facie 1y ago
      You absolutely can. But it does need an internet connection for that. Which actually makes eSIM more secure than regular SIM.
      - tavavex 1y ago
        It can be more secure, but it also feels like the kind of "improvement" that's ripe for exploitation. When you put in a step where you have to ask your service provider for permission to swap the SIM, buckle up for the inevitable development of them asking for a $5, $50 or $100 "service fee" so they consider allowing it.
        ziml77 1y ago
vdupras 1y ago
Oh, that's what you get by being unaware of the cellphone brands. I was all excited thinking "hey, they found a way to hack phones through, I guess, screen firmware by setting a special sequence of pixels? How frakking cool!". How disappointed I was...
BLKNSLVR 1y ago
Testament to GrapheneOS' competence and commitment to it's purpose that it's called out by name by Cellebrite.
jojobas 1y ago
How come not a single Cellebrite device got "lost" and thoroughly analyzed? Surely quite a few police depts are rather lax.
- runlevel1 1y ago
  One did "fall off a truck" and into Moxie Marlinspike's hands back in 2021: https://signal.org/blog/cellebrite-vulnerabilities/ https://signal.org/blog/cellebrite-vulnerabilities/ A bunch of their software was also leaked in a hack back in 2023: https://ddosecrets.com/article/cellebrite-and-msab https://ddosecrets.com/article/cellebrite-and-msab
  - temptemptemp111 1y ago
    [dead]
- commandersaki 1y ago
  I wonder why they haven't switched to a more lucrative model of remote unlock/forensic acquisition using something like WebUSB.
Lucasoato 1y ago
> https://signal.org/blog/cellebrite-vulnerabilities/ https://signal.org/blog/cellebrite-vulnerabilities/ There’s always the hope they are hit back: Cellebrite can develop solutions to automate the hacking of target phones, but in doing so their physical devices are exposed to being hacked as well.
- thenthenthen 1y ago
  “By a truly unbelievable coincidence, I was recently out for a walk when I saw a small package fall off a truck ahead of me” Hahahha. Also is this a common expression “fallen of the back of a truck”?
  - noutella 1y ago
    In France it is indeed a popular expression that means 'stolen' or 'acquired by non-disclosable means'
    - einsteinx2 1y ago
      Also the same in US English
  - throwup238 1y ago
    Yep: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fall_off_the_back_of_a_truck https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fall_off_the_back_of_a_truck
- ajr0 11mo ago
  ahhh what is this? > The completely unrelated > In completely unrelated news, upcoming versions of Signal will be periodically fetching files to place in app storage. These files are never used for anything inside Signal and never interact with Signal software or data, but they look nice, and aesthetics are important in software. Files will only be returned for accounts that have been active installs for some time already, and only probabilistically in low percentages based on phone number sharding. We have a few different versions of files that we think are aesthetically pleasing, and will iterate through those slowly over time. There is no other significance to these files.
kmeisthax 1y ago
If there's one thing I find the most galling about Cellebrite and the larger realm of state-sponsored hacking, it's that it's practically destroyed the ability to jailbreak devices. Pretty much everything on PPL/SPTM has no public jailbreaks to speak of anymore, at least not until way after the feds have thoroughly 0wned you first. While some of this comes down to "Apple increased their security posture", a lot of it is that these exploits are $$$ now... and also that nation state actors only really care about data exfiltration. It's https://xkcd.com/1200/ https://xkcd.com/1200/ all over again. The thing the nerds actually want is, well, not useless to the glowies, but it is definitely overkill.
- userbinator 1y ago
  One wonders if that was the goal all along.
ranger_danger 1y ago
Since nobody else has mentioned it... "vulnerable to hacking" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. It's "vulnerable" about as much as my LUKS desktop system is vulnerable. These charts have been available for years and don't tell us anything particularly scary IMO. This "hacking" especially for BFU/turned-off Pixel devices, at best would amount to brute-forcing your password, either on-device or after copying the flash elsewhere. Short of using top-secret multi-million dollar 0days or something, there is no inherent Pixel flaw that lets them bypass the device's encryption or anything crazy like people are thinking. They still have to get your password somehow, just like anyone else.
IlikeKitties 1y ago
Those slides have been in the GrapheneOS Forums for ages.
wshttp 1y ago
[dead]
cft 1y ago
BFU inside the table cells means: "BFU extraction can only pull the small amount of "Device Encrypted" (DE) data that is accessible. This is mostly system logs, some app settings, and other non-personal data. It does not get messages, photos, or detailed app data." It basically gets them the list of apps, when the phone has been powered on and off and perhaps some cell geo location history. FFS means Full Filesystem Search. What this implies in practice: All locked stock Android Pixels (including 10 I am almost sure) are vulnerable to FFS after the first unlock, even in the locked state. If you want to protect your data (crossing a border, or when you are about to be interrogated by Russian FSB), turn off your stock Android Pixel.
lazyfanatic42 1y ago
So I'm running Pixel 6a with GrapheneOS beta updates, I'm okay? Tho if law enforcement needs in my phone they just need to hold me until after lunch, I get pretty hungry. And those Doritos and coke they offered me sure looks tasty...
- andrepd 1y ago
  Hell, for another sandwich and a potato salad, I'll go a couple more.
- preisschild 1y ago
  Technically, the upgrade to the Pixel 8 (or higher) would be security-wise a lot better, because they offer more memory safety (MTE), but yeah you are probably good.
matheusmoreira 1y ago
Congratulations to the GrapheneOS team. Holding your ground against fucking government backed intelligence corporations is no easy feat. May fortune always smile upon them.
jcalvinowens 1y ago
A ~dozen programmers are shipping a demonstrably more secure version of a multi-billion-dollar corporation's own operating system on that company's own hardware. That's incredible.
- bagels 1y ago
  Or, it was lower priority for discovering exploits due to the number of users.
  - 1vuio0pswjnm7 1y ago
    Perhaps there is an argument to be made that this is a reason "computer security" should not be delegated to a third party, such as an advertising services company like the ones in Silicon Valley, Redmond or Seattle The reasoning is that the company, being concerned with online advertising and reach,^1 has the incentive to ensure that the software becomes popular with the largest possible number of users, perhaps even achieving monopoly power. According to traditional HN commentary, this makes the company and its software a preferred target for exploits by virtue of its popularity 1. Online surveillance practices to potentially support targeted advertising services, where the companies wantonly collect enormous quantities of data about millions of people, also makes them a target for exploits, e.g., "data breaches" Consider an alternative status quo where computer owners, i.e., software users, have many options to choose from, including many operating systems, browsers, "app stores", "platforms", and so on None of the options may be necessarily better choices for "security" for technical reasons^2 but the fact that those who target software from a small number of advertising services juggernauts with millions of users ("lucrative targets") are denied access to such lucrative targets, because the lucrative targets do not exist, is an improvement to "security" overall 2. But some may compete and attempt to distinguish themselves on this basis In this alternative status quo there would likely be requirements that software be compliant with open standards and interoperable, allowing computer users to write, edit, compile, install and choose whatever software they desire, from any source, including their own brain, i.e., they might choose to write, compile and install their own software on their own computers
  - landr0id 1y ago
tonydav 1y ago
<3 GrapheneOS, it does what I need without me spending the time. I only wished they'd add Automatic call recording.
- AlgebraFox 11mo ago
  I am sure that will cause a lot of trouble in many countries. How hard is it to click Record button for the important calls? I don't think a small project like GrapheneOS should spend time on every small request users want.
aftbit 1y ago
One super simple usability v. security tradeoff that Graphene made is that if you plug a new device into the USB while the screen is locked, it just won't work until you unlock the screen. This is kinda annoying the three times a year I want to use wired earbuds, but it's a major impediment for any kind of AFU hacking.
- Zak 1y ago
  Someone should invent a purely analog port for wired earbuds that's immune to that kind of attack.
  - mouse-5346 1y ago
    Maybe with a standardised size suitable for the thin phones we use nowadays, and to make the wires usable in any orientation they can also have one axis of symmetry, maybe along it's primary axis?

464 points by akyuu 1y ago

mugivarra69 1y ago

[dead]

gnabgib 1y ago

Source: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45765858 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45765858

derbOac 1y ago

They couldn't answer the question most on my mind: "We’ve reached out to Google to inquire about why a custom ROM created by volunteers is more resistant to industrial phone hacking than the official Pixel OS. We’ll update this article if Google has anything to say."

bigyabai 1y ago
Short answer: Google is a business that can be compelled by the federal government in ways that nonprofits are resistant to. Ron Wyden identified one of these weaknesses in 2023: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/12/apple-admits-to-secretly-giving-governments-push-notification-data/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/12/apple-admits-to-...
- windexh8er 1y ago
  Let's be very clear: this is still Google's choice. Google could build a phone that they can't be compelled to do anything to after the phone is sold to their customer, but Google alone chooses to not invest in the security of the phones they're selling to their customers. Because: what is good for the government is now equally good for Google. Do we not remember how Google immediately enabled TLS everywhere, internally, post-Snowden [0]? Remember when Google was "outraged"? Where are those people now? They surely don't work at Google anymore. It's amazing how enshittified Google and Apple have become in a decade. [0] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-24751821 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-24751821
  - harambae 1y ago
    > how enshittified Google and Apple have become I don’t know about pop-ups or whatever, but as far as mobile security Apple appears to be running the table. Last cellebrite leak showed they couldn’t do anything in BFU, and you can tell Siri to put it back in BFU without hands while being arrested.
    - bigyabai 1y ago
      Cellebrite is like the Kmart Blue Light Special of Israeli spyware, when you compare it to Greykey and NSO Group offerings. I would not use their capabilities as the be-all end-all.
      - dylan604 1y ago
        > the Kmart Blue Light Special Hello fellow old timer. Do kids today even get this reference other than possibly just on context? My other favorite old store was a place called Gibsons where their stores signage had each upper case letter as an individual square. After it went under, more than one location became SBINGOS joints where first/last squares were no longer lit.
        doodlebugging 1y ago
        Another old-timer here who grew up with Gibsons. It was the only grocery store in town back in the days before WalMart invaded. Ammunition, camping gear, dry goods, garden supplies, farm and ranch supplies, blue jeans, shirts, ties, overalls, etc. They sold everything under one roof in a town of 2500. I thought they had all been swallowed up and shut down until I moved up here to N Texas and was surprised to find a Gibsons here. It took me a while before curiosity took hold but several years later I visited the store, approx 2003-2004ish, and found they still used old-school cash registers, had no UPC scanning capability and every item had a price tag stuck to it. I think they have since moved into the more modern world locally but the store is still there and is a good source for items that you used to need to go to the town's original hardware stores to find. Some of the items on the shelves may have been in inventory here since the 1970's or 1980's. It's a bit like a time machine where you can get obsolete stuff in a pinch if it is still in stock. I worked slapping price tags on items in KMart back in the day so I too understand the reference. Glad I'm done with that.
- GeekyBear 1y ago
  No American company has a choice when the Feds want data stored on a company's server. That doesn't stop Apple or any other company from designing devices that attempt to keep prying eyes out of the data stored on your device.
  - bitwize 1y ago
    The government has ways of twisting the arms of uncooperative people/organizations into providing all the backdoors they need. Everything from increased tax and regulatory scrutiny to "discovering" CSAM on executives' computers or phones. The government does what it wants because it's the government. Mere laws generally don't stand in its way for long.
    - gleenn 1y ago
      I think this is a very negative idea to promote: that laws should can be subverted. Everyone should believe that laws work and when they don't we should work to fix that, not assume that it can never be fixed.
      - thisonetimeonly 1y ago
        It’s the truth, however. Blinding yourself to it won’t make governments any less inclined to bend (or outright break) any laws they deem necessary to achieve their goals. We should work to fix that, no question about it, but ignorance will not by itself improve the situation in imaginable any way.
      - underlipton 1y ago
        I think it's healthy to imagine how authorities might abuse power and under what impetus, in order to head off those abuses. Laws have been subverted in the past, so it's rational to assume that they might be subverted in the future. This is actually a cornerstone of any effort to fix issues.
      - clanky 1y ago
        It can be fixed, but not through the same protocols and institutions that have been compromised.
- kangs 1y ago
  google even has specially signed fw that let you root the device and unlock anything that doesn't rely on the passcode. secureboot passing and all. i can't imagine that the nsa doesnt have them. after that you just gotta crack the usually very simple passcode. wouldny be surprised if thats what cellrite has lol.
IncreasePosts 1y ago
Is grapheheOS actually harder to hack or does cellebrite just not put a lot of effort into supporting it because the very low odds of LEs running into one in the wild?
- markus_zhang 1y ago
  I read from an old HN post that three letter agencies hate graphen OS. The author heard it from defcon or some similar conference. I couldn’t find the post anyway :/ I think it is buried under one of the posts that discuss Defcon and Blackhat.
  - overfeed 1y ago
    Wouldn't it be a total mindfuck if it turns out that Graphene is less secure[1] than stock Pixel, and this is all part of an ANOM-style honeypot operation that has Feds hyping it up, to trick interesting targets into adopting a less-effective security posture. 1. Such as via slower 0-day responses, for instance. This is a thought experiment, I'm nor alleging that this is what it is.
    - hollerith 1y ago
      Anyone can build GrapheneOS from source code, which I doubt is true of any law-enforcement honeypot.
      - embedding-shape 1y ago
        Exactly what someone who sets up a honeypot targeting nerds would want you to think.
        wakawaka28 1y ago
        You can actually build it. But who has time to audit all that stuff? Then you know, there could be firmware hacks that make all the system-level backdoors a moot point.
LoganDark 1y ago
GrapheneOS makes security trade-off that are inconvenient to the user. This results in a far more secure device, but nonetheless a device that the general public would find far more annoying. Google would lose a proportion of its user base by implementing the same protections. Example: https://old.reddit.com/r/GooglePixel/comments/ytk1ng/grapheneos_vs_stock_android https://old.reddit.com/r/GooglePixel/comments/ytk1ng/graphen... Also Google Pay is missing.
- zb3 1y ago
  Which particular thing you consider inconvenient or even annoying? You can even install Google Play there. I see just one minor tradeoff - no face unlock.
  - MrDrMcCoy 1y ago
    That is a major feature. It prevents coerced unlocking.
    - tranq_cassowary 1y ago
      That's not the reasoning. The reasoning is lack of proper hardware support on supported devices for secure face unlock. Coerced unlocking also holds true for fingerprint in some instances and that's worked around by using 2FA (fingerprint + password/PIN).
  - LoganDark 1y ago
    Google OS-level integration is absent, and while Google Play Services can be installed, you're still missing things like Chromecast. Also, there's more manual configuration (although I don't remember exactly what, I've never used GrapheneOS). A lot of stuff you do get for free, but not all of it, and stuff that's been removed as a "feature" isn't always stuff that nobody wants.
    - _lyxd 1y ago
      > stuff that's been removed as a "feature" isn't always stuff that nobody wants. Graphene isn't made to cater to what everyone wants. Face ID and fingerprint unlocking so clearly have no place in a hardened OS. "Google OS-level integration is absent" should not be suprising. This said, you ought to be able to have BFU security with stock Android and it's embarrassing Google ships stock vulnerable.
colordrops 1y ago
I'd almost want to avoid GrapheneOS because it gets so much attention from law enforcement that it's probably a big target for various agencies to find vulnerabilities in.
- giantg2 1y ago
  This doesn't make sense. If you're worried about the government targeting you, then what is the alternative... less hardened phones? At least Graphene will protect you better than the stock OS. If you're really that concerned then you shouldn't use anything going through cell tower (or take extreme precautions when doing so).
  - colordrops 1y ago
    I did say "almost". But as you mention there aren't many alternative. It would be a better world if there were several options besides just Graphene that prioritize security.
    - chasil 1y ago
      What they are doing is difficult and expensive. The talent pool that is willing to work in a nonprofit is not likely large.
    - subscribed 1y ago
      In reality you have iPhones (in lockdown mode meaning you mist throw some of the usability away) or GrapheneOS if you prefer android. No other hardware and software solutions come close. Cellebrite matrix shows it pretty well (and from late 2024 cellebrite cannot even extract entire phone form the unlocked GOS.
- Xss3 1y ago
  More attention than stock android?
tranq_cassowary 1y ago
GrapheneOS isn't made by volunteers. They have a team of around 10 paid developers. They are a nonprofit foundation that receives donations and uses those to pay developers, infrastructure etc. Ars Technica has update its article to rectify that mistake. It doesn't mention that anymore.
- isodev 1y ago
  It’s still a valid question. We have this huge corporation that’s doing so many things, constantly lobbying for policy, obscene revenue all while people are exploiting the apk out of their OS. In fact, looking at the news this week, the same question applies to Microsoft and Apple as well. Are they too big and distracted to care about security?
  - saagarjha 1y ago
    No, it's just that the user will not put up with a system like GrapheneOS.
    - Sanzig 1y ago
      How so? Graphene is perfectly useable for a non-technical user. And once you install Play Store, it's almost indistinguishable UX-wise from any other Android phone.
      - udev4096 1y ago
        He's a fucking ignorant normie. He has never even tried to install GOS because if he did, he would know how almost identical the experience is with Android and there are no privileged google processes running on your phone which not only hog the resources but sends every single bit of information about your whole life
        saagarjha 11mo ago
        I have tried installing it, for your information
FrequentLurker 1y ago
So much for all the security posturing by Google lol.
- subscribed 1y ago
  I mean, hardware is great, it's literally the only safe and secure hardware for AOSP. Samsung are mostly security theater, all the other brands are shockingly bad.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
lucasluitjes 1y ago
GrapheneOS is basically the Android equivalent of iOS Lockdown mode. Considering how the threat landscape has changed, it would be nice if Google offered this itself. Or became a long-term sponsor of GrapheneOS, seeing how great a job they've been doing.
- subscribed 1y ago
  Not really. iOS in lockdown mode has multiple features disabled (or crippled, depending on how you look at it), while GrapheneOS is just..... secure by design with secure defaults. https://support.apple.com/en-us/105120 https://support.apple.com/en-us/105120 In iPhone also you cannot just turn on/off/adjust these protections one by one, it's all or nothing.
  - mike_d 11mo ago
    > OS in lockdown mode has multiple features disabled [...] while GrapheneOS is just... ...disabling features. Android Auto, Google Pay, enhanced GPS, SafetyNet, push notifications, support for any apps requiring device integrity, etc. They aren't redesigning and re-implementing these features securely, they are reducing attack surface just like lockdown mode.
    - subscribed 11mo ago
      >> [...] while GrapheneOS is just... > ...disabling features. Android Auto, Google Pay, enhanced GPS, This is broadly false, not just misleading but false. - Android Auto: working wired or wireless without problems - Google Pay: app vendor choice to put it behind DEVICE_INTEGRITY check, not OS vendor. NFC payments work just fine with other vendors. - enhanced GPS: whatever that means, is most likely false. Users don't experience any issues with GPS > SafetyNet SafetyNet Attestation API is deprecated and no longer available so also not true. But from the context I think you meant Play Integrity API. This is Google Services feature, not AOSP feature. GrapheneOS is an AOSP-based system. GOS passes MEETS_BASIC_INTEGRITY. It doesn't pass DEVICE_INTEGRITY because it doesn't run privileged, unbound Google Surveillance Services (according to Google 10 year old phone not updated for 8 years is more secure as long as it allows Google Services sniff everywhere). It cannot pass MEETS_STRONG_INTEGRITY they way Google requires it because AFAIR that thing is signed by the TPM. It does provide an alternative STRONG_INTEGRITY assurance based on the AOSP Hardware Attestation API (which many developers in fact use). > push notifications, This is so false it should be called out as a lie, not just a falsehood. Reliable push notifications are supported both in the standard way (if user decides to do so), via GCM, or in one in the alternative ways, for example UP, exactly like on the standard Android phone. > support for any apps requiring device integrity, etc. This is also a lie or ignorance. See above. For example Starling Bank has explicitly implemented GOS Hardware Attestation API. > They aren't redesigning and re-implementing these features securely, What do you mean? hardened_malloc? Memory tagging for entire kernel? automatic switch to BFU after timeout? USB data blocked by default with the screen locked? Network permission toggle? Storage/contact scopes? Critical patches released seemingly _months_ before the major vendors? LOL. Half of your claims are either lies or misrepresentation. The other half (Google Pay and Play Integrity) are vendor functionality. They would have to spoof (fake) it - exactly like rooted phones do (and which can often be detected). Or allow Google in the privileged mode, which is not going to happen. That has been explained by the development team _so_ many times already. They cannot "re-implement" a feature that *GOOGLE* offers to the developers using *Google store*. That would for example require using leaked private key. They are challenging Google's stance on Play Integrity with EU commission, because there is no technical reason to bar the safe hardware+OS passing a standard AOSP hw attestation. This is an AOSP OS, not a hacked Google Pixel ROM. > they are reducing attack surface just like lockdown mode. They are reducing attack surfaces without locking down functionality. Google deciding to not support the competition is not GOS locking somehow down. Entirely different from Apple's lockdown mode. QED. I wouldn't mind listing _downsides_ of using GOS as a first/main device (because there are many), but I prefer facts over confabulations :)
markstos 1y ago
One idea is that the stock rom by Google may phone home even when locked. Perhaps with a malicious WiFi network, attackers can exploit the phone through a flaw in DNS or HTTP handling. If GrapheneOS skips contacting remote servers like that, they would not be vulnerable. It would be a story of Google prioritizing tracking over security.
bitfilped 1y ago
Googles goal as a company is to raise their stock price, graphenes goal is to make a secure phone OS. It really shouldn't be surprising to anyone that graphene is doing a better job.

aussieguy1234 1y ago

I've set up GrapheneOS on my Pixel with 2FA fingerprint + PIN unlock. No way will anyone be getting into it without my cooperation. My only issue was less compatibility with my local emergency services, since they can't see me on a map for some reason if I call from a GOS phone. My solution to that was a second Pixel as an emergency phone - one with the stock OS, that I'll swap sims with and take with me when hiking, stand up paddle bording and doing other activities that carry risk. This phone has no sensitive information in it. I also have a PLB for added protection.

fluidcruft 1y ago
Is there anything actually preventing Samsung or another vendor from adopting GrapheneOS's security innovations?
- immibis 1y ago
  Probably their legal obligation to comply with secret government orders (FISA, NSL etc - the government probably already said don't make unhackable phones or else) and their informal wish to remain on the regime's good side.
  - astrange 11mo ago
    Samsung is not an American company and what you're claiming would conflict with other countries' laws, namely EU Cyber Resilience Act.
- joemazerino 1y ago
  The hardware Samsung provides is not up to spec.
- russianGuy83829 1y ago
  GrapheneOS is seemingly working with an OEM to make a GrapheneOS smartphone. Its probably not samsung, but would still be an established vendor

chaps 1y ago

Here's the full document without the blurriness: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/24833831-cellebrite-android-document-april-2024/ https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/24833831-cellebrite-... (it's been available since 2024 -- found by searching for "android os access support matrix" on documentcloud)

Infernal 1y ago
The point here is that the doc you linked is a year and a half old, this (if real) is much newer. Security is a constant arms race between attackers and defenders, nothing is static so updates of this nature are always welcome.
- chaps 1y ago
  I'm not disputing that. :)
  - Infernal 1y ago
    Fair, I suppose I've misunderstood. I took "it's been available since 2024" as a dismissal of this new information.
    - chaps 1y ago
      Also fair! I think "leaker" is just bristly to me in this context, when there's a nearly identical version of it just hanging out for folk to find. But also just a hope that some folk might poke around documentcloud for similar documents lying around. Lots of newsworthy gems in there just waiting to be picked up and this's a good example.
Squealer2642 1y ago
This one doesn't have Pixel 9's so the image in the article has been updated a bit.
sciencejerk 1y ago
[flagged]

c420 1y ago

>However, rogueFed also called out the meeting organizer by name (the second screenshot, which we are not reposting). The FBI?

driverdan 1y ago
No, the Cellebrite rep Alex Rankmore. The screenshot is still in the thread farther down.

gnarlouse 1y ago

Wow. I was just thinking about jumping ship from iPhone to Pixel.

dns_snek 1y ago
All iPhones were vulnerable according to the last available iOS support matrix.
- runlevel1 1y ago
  That's not quite correct, but you're not a million miles off: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/24833832-cellebrite-ios-document-april-2024/ https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/24833832-cellebrite-... To calibrate your sense of time, the iPhone 15 had been released in September 2023 and that doc is dated April 2024, so ~6 months. And just for completeness, here was the Android doc that leaked at the same time: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/24833831-cellebrite-android-document-april-2024/ https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/24833831-cellebrite-...
  - dns_snek 1y ago
    For iOS there's a slightly newer one released in July 2024 which indicated iPhone 15 support too: https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/14344-cellebrite-premium-july-2024-documentation https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/14344-cellebrite-premium-ju...
    - kotaKat 1y ago
      Honestly seems like if you just stay on the latest-and-greatest you'll stay ahead of Cellebrite long enough. I'll be amused when Apple finally drops a portless iPhone as the next step ahead. (Apple already has their Qi2/Magsafe setup, and they already have been using 60GHz wireless USB for quite some time now internally with the Apple Watch for diagnostics and service management since Series 7.)
      - 1y ago

zb3 1y ago

Another great thing about GrapheneOS (besides security) is that Google Play Services can be installed without elevated privileges and even in a separate profile which can't run in the background. This makes the phone suitable for both normal usage and for those cases where you need to use some "official" app. It passes Play Integrity "MEETS_BASIC_INTEGRITY" but of course doesn't pass higher levels but not because it's insecure - it's because it refuses to grant GMS elevated privileges. Good news is that banking apps can whitelist GrapheneOS using standard Android attestation mechanism (and some already did).

ForHackernews 1y ago
https://xkcd.com/1200/ https://xkcd.com/1200/
- throawayonthe 1y ago
  this is actually not the case on modern android lol
  - ashirviskas 1y ago
    How?
  - ForHackernews 1y ago
    >Thanks to GrapheneOS, I keep my banking app, my gmail, my social media, my candy crush, and my nudes together with google play services monitoring it all safely sandboxed away from the private profile with my F-droid notes app and an SSH terminal.
gilrim 1y ago
My bank (largest local in my country) shipped a beta version of their app where my pixel8p with grapheneos was flagged as insecure this summer. Called them up, explained the issue and a couple days later a new build without the issue appeared for install.

j1elo 1y ago

> Notably, the Pixel 10 series is moving away from physical SIM cards. Is it? I hadn't followed news of the new Pixels. I don't like the idea of modernizing this and going full eSIM. It will introduce a lot of new friction, somehow I don't doubt it. Just now arrived to Mexico for a quick trip and grabbed a prepaid SIM from a 7-11 in the airport. All quick and simple. I doubt things would be so seamless when not having a SIM tray in the phone. Having to go through an official process to register a new card, ID oneself, hope to not have any incompatibility with the eSIM slots in your phone (admittedly I don't know how this works)... vs. just paying MXN100 and leave the store with a ready to use number.

stackskipton 1y ago
eSIM can be QR code so if they wanted, Mexican vendor just pay and show QR code for you to scan.
- purpleidea 1y ago
  The unfortunate problem with eSIM is that you can't swap it between phones.
  - prima-facie 1y ago
    You absolutely can. But it does need an internet connection for that. Which actually makes eSIM more secure than regular SIM.
    - tavavex 1y ago
      It can be more secure, but it also feels like the kind of "improvement" that's ripe for exploitation. When you put in a step where you have to ask your service provider for permission to swap the SIM, buckle up for the inevitable development of them asking for a $5, $50 or $100 "service fee" so they consider allowing it.
      - ziml77 1y ago

vdupras 1y ago

Oh, that's what you get by being unaware of the cellphone brands. I was all excited thinking "hey, they found a way to hack phones through, I guess, screen firmware by setting a special sequence of pixels? How frakking cool!". How disappointed I was...

BLKNSLVR 1y ago

Testament to GrapheneOS' competence and commitment to it's purpose that it's called out by name by Cellebrite.

jojobas 1y ago

How come not a single Cellebrite device got "lost" and thoroughly analyzed? Surely quite a few police depts are rather lax.

runlevel1 1y ago
One did "fall off a truck" and into Moxie Marlinspike's hands back in 2021: https://signal.org/blog/cellebrite-vulnerabilities/ https://signal.org/blog/cellebrite-vulnerabilities/ A bunch of their software was also leaked in a hack back in 2023: https://ddosecrets.com/article/cellebrite-and-msab https://ddosecrets.com/article/cellebrite-and-msab
- temptemptemp111 1y ago
  [dead]
commandersaki 1y ago
I wonder why they haven't switched to a more lucrative model of remote unlock/forensic acquisition using something like WebUSB.

Lucasoato 1y ago

> https://signal.org/blog/cellebrite-vulnerabilities/ https://signal.org/blog/cellebrite-vulnerabilities/ There’s always the hope they are hit back: Cellebrite can develop solutions to automate the hacking of target phones, but in doing so their physical devices are exposed to being hacked as well.

thenthenthen 1y ago
“By a truly unbelievable coincidence, I was recently out for a walk when I saw a small package fall off a truck ahead of me” Hahahha. Also is this a common expression “fallen of the back of a truck”?
- noutella 1y ago
  In France it is indeed a popular expression that means 'stolen' or 'acquired by non-disclosable means'
  - einsteinx2 1y ago
    Also the same in US English
- throwup238 1y ago
  Yep: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fall_off_the_back_of_a_truck https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fall_off_the_back_of_a_truck
ajr0 11mo ago
ahhh what is this? > The completely unrelated > In completely unrelated news, upcoming versions of Signal will be periodically fetching files to place in app storage. These files are never used for anything inside Signal and never interact with Signal software or data, but they look nice, and aesthetics are important in software. Files will only be returned for accounts that have been active installs for some time already, and only probabilistically in low percentages based on phone number sharding. We have a few different versions of files that we think are aesthetically pleasing, and will iterate through those slowly over time. There is no other significance to these files.

kmeisthax 1y ago

If there's one thing I find the most galling about Cellebrite and the larger realm of state-sponsored hacking, it's that it's practically destroyed the ability to jailbreak devices. Pretty much everything on PPL/SPTM has no public jailbreaks to speak of anymore, at least not until way after the feds have thoroughly 0wned you first. While some of this comes down to "Apple increased their security posture", a lot of it is that these exploits are $$$ now... and also that nation state actors only really care about data exfiltration. It's https://xkcd.com/1200/ https://xkcd.com/1200/ all over again. The thing the nerds actually want is, well, not useless to the glowies, but it is definitely overkill.

userbinator 1y ago
One wonders if that was the goal all along.

ranger_danger 1y ago

Since nobody else has mentioned it... "vulnerable to hacking" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. It's "vulnerable" about as much as my LUKS desktop system is vulnerable. These charts have been available for years and don't tell us anything particularly scary IMO. This "hacking" especially for BFU/turned-off Pixel devices, at best would amount to brute-forcing your password, either on-device or after copying the flash elsewhere. Short of using top-secret multi-million dollar 0days or something, there is no inherent Pixel flaw that lets them bypass the device's encryption or anything crazy like people are thinking. They still have to get your password somehow, just like anyone else.

IlikeKitties 1y ago

Those slides have been in the GrapheneOS Forums for ages.

wshttp 1y ago

[dead]

cft 1y ago

BFU inside the table cells means: "BFU extraction can only pull the small amount of "Device Encrypted" (DE) data that is accessible. This is mostly system logs, some app settings, and other non-personal data. It does not get messages, photos, or detailed app data." It basically gets them the list of apps, when the phone has been powered on and off and perhaps some cell geo location history. FFS means Full Filesystem Search. What this implies in practice: All locked stock Android Pixels (including 10 I am almost sure) are vulnerable to FFS after the first unlock, even in the locked state. If you want to protect your data (crossing a border, or when you are about to be interrogated by Russian FSB), turn off your stock Android Pixel.

lazyfanatic42 1y ago

So I'm running Pixel 6a with GrapheneOS beta updates, I'm okay? Tho if law enforcement needs in my phone they just need to hold me until after lunch, I get pretty hungry. And those Doritos and coke they offered me sure looks tasty...

andrepd 1y ago
Hell, for another sandwich and a potato salad, I'll go a couple more.
preisschild 1y ago
Technically, the upgrade to the Pixel 8 (or higher) would be security-wise a lot better, because they offer more memory safety (MTE), but yeah you are probably good.

matheusmoreira 1y ago

Congratulations to the GrapheneOS team. Holding your ground against fucking government backed intelligence corporations is no easy feat. May fortune always smile upon them.

jcalvinowens 1y ago

A ~dozen programmers are shipping a demonstrably more secure version of a multi-billion-dollar corporation's own operating system on that company's own hardware. That's incredible.

bagels 1y ago
Or, it was lower priority for discovering exploits due to the number of users.
- 1vuio0pswjnm7 1y ago
  Perhaps there is an argument to be made that this is a reason "computer security" should not be delegated to a third party, such as an advertising services company like the ones in Silicon Valley, Redmond or Seattle The reasoning is that the company, being concerned with online advertising and reach,^1 has the incentive to ensure that the software becomes popular with the largest possible number of users, perhaps even achieving monopoly power. According to traditional HN commentary, this makes the company and its software a preferred target for exploits by virtue of its popularity 1. Online surveillance practices to potentially support targeted advertising services, where the companies wantonly collect enormous quantities of data about millions of people, also makes them a target for exploits, e.g., "data breaches" Consider an alternative status quo where computer owners, i.e., software users, have many options to choose from, including many operating systems, browsers, "app stores", "platforms", and so on None of the options may be necessarily better choices for "security" for technical reasons^2 but the fact that those who target software from a small number of advertising services juggernauts with millions of users ("lucrative targets") are denied access to such lucrative targets, because the lucrative targets do not exist, is an improvement to "security" overall 2. But some may compete and attempt to distinguish themselves on this basis In this alternative status quo there would likely be requirements that software be compliant with open standards and interoperable, allowing computer users to write, edit, compile, install and choose whatever software they desire, from any source, including their own brain, i.e., they might choose to write, compile and install their own software on their own computers
- landr0id 1y ago

tonydav 1y ago

<3 GrapheneOS, it does what I need without me spending the time. I only wished they'd add Automatic call recording.

AlgebraFox 11mo ago
I am sure that will cause a lot of trouble in many countries. How hard is it to click Record button for the important calls? I don't think a small project like GrapheneOS should spend time on every small request users want.

aftbit 1y ago

One super simple usability v. security tradeoff that Graphene made is that if you plug a new device into the USB while the screen is locked, it just won't work until you unlock the screen. This is kinda annoying the three times a year I want to use wired earbuds, but it's a major impediment for any kind of AFU hacking.

Zak 1y ago
Someone should invent a purely analog port for wired earbuds that's immune to that kind of attack.
- mouse-5346 1y ago
  Maybe with a standardised size suitable for the thin phones we use nowadays, and to make the wires usable in any orientation they can also have one axis of symmetry, maybe along it's primary axis?