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Installing any app I want outside the Play Store was the primary reason I decided to go with Android, despite most of the people I know using iPhones. If I can'

by itg 1y ago

Installing any app I want outside the Play Store was the primary reason I decided to go with Android, despite most of the people I know using iPhones. If I can't do this anymore, I may as well switch and be able to use iMessage and FaceTime with them.

63stack 1y ago
Same, I'm tempted to call android just a shittier iPhone now
- Aachen 1y ago
  What part of cheaper, better, and open source is shittier exactly?
  - pkulak 1y ago
    > What part of cheaper The iPhone 17 is the same price as the Pixel 10 > better But the iPhone 17 has better hardware features, like UWB, better cameras, and a _far_ faster CPU. > open source Only if you install Graphene, and then never install anything that requires Google Play Services, which is basically every commercial app.
    - blackbear_ 1y ago
      GOS allows you to install and use apps from the Play Store and the vast majority of them works flawlessly.
    - xigoi 1y ago
      > The iPhone 17 is the same price as the Pixel 10 Too bad there aren’t any other Android phones…
    - rangestransform 1y ago
      > and a _far_ faster CPU. No longer true with the newest chip that Mediatek cooked up, ARM licensed cores like C1 are catching up rapidly with Apple CPUs (or maybe Apple has hit the limit of their current design philosophy)
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
    - terminalshort 1y ago
      In terms of cameras, my pixel takes way better pictures than any iphone, and people I know with iphones (which is basically everyone) admit it.
      - krabizzwainch 1y ago
        Mine was better until Google kept forcing AI sharpening and making things look worse.
        terminalshort 1y ago
        Which pixel do you have? I have the 9, and I don't seem to have that problem.
      - jerojero 1y ago
        I have an 8 pro. A month or so ago I went to NYC, I visited some of the museums. Although I managed to get some great pictures, framing wise and sharpness wise. The color resolution was absolutely ridiculously bad. I couldn't figure out a way in that moment to fix the issue, but seriously, the colors were so far off it kinda ruined this phone for me. My friend had an iphone, we took the same pictures of the same paintings and his photos looked much closer to life than mine. Huge disappointment. In the iphone its very easy to shoot raw and the camera app has a lot of very good intuitive controls. Not to even begin talking about video. At some point I think Google did make really good photography phones but it seems to me like they've basically stopped trying to stay ahead of the competition whereas apple is always trying to improve. Thats my impression anyway.
    - brailsafe 1y ago
      > The iPhone 17 is the same price as the Pixel 10 I mean, flagship vs flagship idk if one has ever been significantly cheaper, but I've never been in the market for those either. It's very easy to get a higher priced, more interesting, highly specced Android phone. Both iPhones and flagship android phones are way too expensive for what they are capable of compared to any of their own prior generations of themselves, if you ignore tech specs and consider the tangible end-user functionality, but even still. I've always bought the phone that suits me in the moment, have never budgeted higher than $600CAD, and have simply never been interested in iPhones beyond what used to be nice industrial design. For that, last time I got a brand new Pixel 7 on sale, Pixel 4a, Nexus 5 etc.. and they've all done what I needed and usually came close to matching the fancier versions in some ways in the same year's lineup. Usually though I have breadth of options to pick from across a range of brands that I can choose between based on whatever the hell I prefer. iPhones are just iPhones, bigger or smaller, more expensive or cheaper, big camera plateau or small, and that's all fine too. The sideloading aspect for me and a better sense of control is absolutely a component in that preference, and I'll have to consider that going forward, but I'd sooner just dial back my dependence on phones in general than switch to an iPhone.
    - akimbostrawman 1y ago
      >requires Google Play Services, which is basically every commercial app. Not my experience at all. Only some banking apps or apps that otherwise hard depend on play services feature like google pay. GrapheneOS offer isolated unprivileged sandboxed Google play services for those.
  - array_key_first 1y ago
    1. Not cheaper. 2. I think it's better, I like the UX but that's subjective. 3. Not open source. AOSP is open source. Android is not open source.
    - stronglikedan 1y ago
      It's certainly cheaper when you compare phones with like specs.
      - dangus 1y ago
        Not by much these days. The Pixel 10 actually gives you half the storage as the iPhone 17 at the same price. The only Android phones that are significantly cheaper than equivalent iPhone tend to come with some kind of compromise (and don’t forget that Apple’s phones start at $600 - the iPhone 16e exists).
        vbezhenar 1y ago
        Try Xiaomi.
        all2 1y ago
        I did. I cannot recommend it. There is no real way to unlock bootloaders on these. They've locked it down so much that you can't really do anything but run what they give you.
        dangus 1y ago
        Not sold in the US officially, no warranty service.
        gkbrk 1y ago
        Xiaomi phones have built-in ads, that's one of the reasons it gets to be cheaper.
        dangus 1y ago
  - realusername 1y ago
    Cheaper for sure, better maybe but open source certainly not, AOSP doesn't run on a single device on earth, not even the emulators.
    - floxy 1y ago
      I'm out of the loop on this. What is Graphene doing? https://grapheneos.org/features https://grapheneos.org/features >GrapheneOS is a private and secure mobile operating system with great functionality and usability. It starts from the strong baseline of the Android Open Source Project (AOSP) and takes great care to avoid increasing attack surface or hurting the strong security model.
      - realusername 1y ago
        They are doing it like everybody else, they have their own system apps (because they got kind of unmaintainted by Google in AOSP since Android 12), they add drivers from the pixel device tree and then they add their security patches. If you would put AOSP on a Pixel, it wouldn't even boot and if you managed to get it to boot, the apps would be unusable.
  - constantcrying 1y ago
    Over the last years Android has gotten increasingly worse, which is something you just have to expect from a Google product. It is still unbelievable to me that Google is shipping a product which takes 10 seconds to show anything when I search through my phones settings. What are they doing? >open source Sure. If you buy the right phone you get some open source components. Of course half the Android companies are trying to funnel you into their proprietary ecosystem as well. The rest just wants you to use Google's proprietary ecosystem.
    - surajrmal 1y ago
      Everything in settings loads near instantly for me including search. What exactly has gotten worse with Android recently?
    - xp84 1y ago
      > takes 10 seconds to show anything when I search through my phones settings Ah, I see ol' Google's been shamelessly copying Apple again. Unrelated but related to embarrassingly-bad search: On my iPhone, I have a Hacker News reader app called Octal. Now when I search the phone itself for "octal" (like I do to launch most apps), sometimes the only result found is... the Octal entry under Settings (where iOS sticks the permission-granting interface for notifications, location, etc.) Can't find the app itself. Just the settings for it.
brazukadev 1y ago
> Installing any app I want outside the Play Store was the primary reason I decided to go with Android You still can do that with PWAs in Android. Let's see for how long.
- _imnothere 1y ago
  > PWAs And I wonder when can we stop lying to ourselves pretending "web"-apps are real (native) apps?
  - llbbdd 1y ago
    Why?
    - pooyamo 1y ago
      Can you create and run a service that starts when phone is turned on, with a PWA app? Usecase is a backup daemon.
      - claytongulick 1y ago
        Does every app need to do this? I make lots of "real" healthcare apps that are PWAs. Much better installation and user experience, no dev cert nonsense, brain dead simple updates, no app store, etc...
        01HNNWZ0MV43FF 1y ago
        Backup, file sync, and chat... very common and important use cases. Not everything can start with a user request.
        Rohansi 1y ago
        You shouldn't need a service running all the time for chat. Just use push notifications.
- 1y ago
jadbox 1y ago
You can still install apps outside the play store, but the developer does need to verify their signing information. Effectively this means that any app you install must have a paper trail to the originating developer, even if its not on the app store. On one hand, I can see the need for this to track down virus creators, but on the other, it provides Google transparency and control over side loaded app. It IS a concerning move, but currently this is far from 'killing' non-appstore apps for most of the market.
- detectivestory 1y ago
  From a quick glance at /r/GooglePlayDeveloper/ it looks like Google is just as interested in killing playstore apps! It seems that they only want to support the existing larger apps now. I think they are giving a clear message to developers that its not really worth developing for that platform anymore. I think we will all agree that the playstore needed a purge but they seem to be making it impossible for any new solo devs at this point.
  - jadbox 1y ago
    I have no idea what this means. How does this change "kill playstore apps"?
    - andrewl-hn 1y ago
      Not related to this particular news item, but several high-profile App developers are either killing their apps on Android entirely (like iA Writer) or removing features due to Google tightening submission requirements and increasing costs for apps that integrate with their services.
    - detectivestory 1y ago
      not the change mentioned in the news link. I was referring to what people are discussing over on the reddit play store sub. Google are terminating dev accounts without giving any reasons or warnings. I'm sure most, if not all terminations have have some element of justification but ultimately it means that Google seem pretty happy to terminate any dev account without letting the developer know why. And to make things worse, that developer is forever banned from ever publishing any content on the playstore for life. They cannot make a new account. Their career in android app development can be destroyed in an instant. Most terminations seem to be handled by bots... and to rub salt in the wound, Google only responds to appeals... using more bots. That is according to what the community has been saying at least. I'm sure they know what they are doing and one thing we all know is that Google actually IS big enough not to fail. But it does seem like the right thing to at least make new developers more aware of the risks. And it is obviously a very stressful time for anyone who is actually making a living off an android app.
wiether 1y ago
And in the EU you can install apps outside of the AppStore on your iPhone!
- gumby271 1y ago
  But not outside of Apple's control, they have a very similar mechanism to this verification process with 3rd party app stores.
- Croak 1y ago
  Thats a recent addition; hope consumer protection laws around the world become better.
gdulli 1y ago
Then you'd be rewarding the company that pioneered and normalized taking away these rights. The next rights you'll lose will probably originate on Apple again years before Google takes them away too.
- rs186 1y ago
  It doesn't make any difference anyway, does it? Then I might as well treat myself with better hardware & ecosystem.
  - ethbr1 1y ago
    Better hardware, yes. But you'll be reminded quickly how comparatively shit Apple's software is. Aka the litany of "Oh, yeah, everyone knows that's broken but just deals with it, because there's no way to fix issues on a closed platform other than {wait for Apple}."
    - blibble 1y ago
      my iphone doesn't reboot every time I try to take a picture or make a phone call (on every pixel I've had) android sucks, but it was open now it just sucks
      - BenjiWiebe 1y ago
        How many pixels have you had that reboot when you take a picture or make a phone call? My pixels haven't done that (yet anyways).
        blibble 1y ago
        4
    - rs186 1y ago
      I will take Apple's software over Samsung's ad infested, buggy & ugly software any day.
JohnTHaller 1y ago
You can still side-load signed apps. It's a similar limitation to macOS which won't let you run apps that Apple hasn't signed without command line or control panel shenanigans. Compared to iOS, Android still has the advantage of installing your own full browser (like Firefox) with full-fat ad blocking (uBlock Origin, not Lite). iOS is Safari-only right now though, in theory, some alternative engines may be available in Europe later.
- TuringTest 1y ago
  If they need to be signed by Google, that's not side loading by definition; it's using an alternate Google channel.
- koolala 1y ago
  What your describing isn't "side-loading". Doing that means the apps go through Google's chain of control. Please don't let them redefine the word.
- ptrl600 1y ago
  With macOS you run "sudo spctl --master disable", and then you can run whatever you want without sending PII to Apple. Is that the case with the new Android stuff?
  - flawn 1y ago
    No, the closest would be rooting your phone but then you can't use banking apps properly (there are loopholes to spoof integrity but they are slowly coming to an end as verification runs on TEE)
    - jhasse 1y ago
      Couldn't you install with adb without rooting?
  - jhasse 1y ago
    We don't know yet. At the moment side-loading still works without restrictions.
jamesnorden 1y ago
>I may as well switch and be able to use iMessage and FaceTime with them I, too, love vendor lockin.
- vivalahn 1y ago
  Another road that leads to BBM it seems. It’s utterly bizarre how BBM could have been the iMessage and WhatsApp and who knows what else. But rich out-of-touch people thinking exclusivity is a perk in a commodities market just shows how business savvy and wealth are in reality disconnected from eachother.
  - stackskipton 1y ago
    BBM could have been great lock in IF OS and Hardware experience was not so bad. For vast majority, Android vs iPhone is not massively different so iMessage availability is a draw for some people.
    - vivalahn 1y ago
      BBM itself should not have been a lock-in. It would have taken incredibly little effort to open it as a desktop messenger that can seamlessly interact with people who have BBM numbers for example. I doubt they learned their lessons. Apple walked all over them in so many ways and, if memory serves me right, they even mocked Steve Jobs over the iPhone. Edit: just so I’m clear I’m discussing it from the perspective of early to mid 2000s. iPhone hadn’t yet come out, but iPods were popular. Trillian and Pidgin were dominating the online landscape of software that could support multiple chat protocols - seamless ICQ, AIM, IRC, Yahoo, MSN Messenger, all in one program. If there was a time for RIM to corner the market here it was right then and there because BBM was the real deal, being available on phones and they could have signed agreements with others to bring it to, for example, Nokia and Motorola and whoever else. But no. They’d rather be arrogant and stupid.
      - vanviegen 1y ago
        > they even mocked Steve Jobs over the iPhone. Isn't that just doing their jobs as executives for a competitor? Though internally, one would hope they were sounding some alarm bells. Though at the time, it wasn't at all obvious that people could get used to doing relatively serious typing on a small (even tiny back then) virtual keyboard.
xandrius 1y ago
Check UbuntuTouch, it's really a nice third option. The OS is refreshing and the dev community active. We do not have to choose the lesser of two evils this time.
- cons0le 1y ago
  I wonder if banking and messaging apps will work on it in the future
  - jolmg 1y ago
    Re: banking, not until adoption of non-Android and non-iOS devices grows. To break this chicken and egg problem, one can get an Android phone and use it exclusively for the banking app, treating it like one of those hardware security keys the banks used to give out in the early 2010s. One used to just leave it at home; maybe take it to work occasionally. Another option is to live like the early 2000s and go to an ATM/bank for all bank things, including account consultation.
    - WD-42 1y ago
      Or use the banks website from a computer? Which banks do not allow this?
      - londons_explore 1y ago
        Many banks in Europe are app-only and don't allow you to log in with a web browser.
        WD-42 1y ago
        Yikes. That sounds tough.
        ahartmetz 1y ago
        In Germany at least, that's only the ones that advertise being an "app bank". It's the last thing that I want, but they exist.
FranzFerdiNaN 1y ago
Maybe it’s because I’m European but I’ve never understood what iMessage even is or what it offers above either sms or WhatsApp/signal. And I’ve used an iPhone for the past 15 years.
- rkomorn 1y ago
  For me, mainly: no international cost, no metered cost (other than data), no extra app like WhatsApp to install (but other party needs iOS). Edit: that said, nowadays, maybe because I'm back in the EU, I use WhatsApp way more often than iMessage.
  - BenjiWiebe 1y ago
    It is easier, however, to install WhatsApp then to switch from Android to iOS.
    - rkomorn 1y ago
      Of course. iMessage is just a convenience when someone else has an iPhone.
treyd 1y ago
You could also use a thirdparty ROM.
- colordrops 1y ago
  How long until AOSP deviates so much from features in 3rd party ROMs that it becomes infeasible to for amateur developers to maintain them?
  - treyd 1y ago
    AOSP is used in many contexts like embedded devices where somehow enshackling it would screw up Google's self-interest in other market areas (like ensuring there is a wider population of Android developers). But regardless, thirdparty ROMs will continue to exist regardless of how much effort it takes because the demand exists and will not merely dissipate.
    - colordrops 1y ago
      Demand exists for a lot of things that don't exist. There's no technical reason that the internet couldn't have stayed mostly decentralized, with everyone hosting a node at their house, controlling their own data and feeds, with an experience not much different from current services and social media, and people would absolutely want this if the experience was reliable and had good UX. But so much effort has been shunted to centralized services that it never materialized. The demand is there, I've asked many people. Just one counterexample. I'm working on a project myself but it's taking forever considering the large scope. Getting close to having it ready for technical individuals to try it out. https://homefree.host https://homefree.host
XorNot 1y ago
F-droid routinely delivers me higher quality, more reliable apps that do exactly what I need then to do too. It's become my go-to for "I need a utility for X task".
- Grimblewald 1y ago
  Same here. F droid gives clean functional and reliable apps while playstore is a dumpsterfire.
observationist 1y ago
Refuse to participate in either walled garden. There are no good reasons left to use either platform - you're basically paying an arm and a leg to rent a device whose primary purpose is to usurp your attention and plunder your wallet at every possible opportunity. Use and encourage your circle to use Signal, so you're not limited to any given platform, or the political or ideological whims of the gardenmeisters. Google has gone full enshittified with this move, might as well move as far and as fast away from all the shit if you're technically capable, introduce whatever pressure you can to signal that there's a desperate need in the smartphone market for something clean and honest.
- musictubes 1y ago
  “There are no good reasons” really? One of my favorite things about iOS/ipados is the incredible selection of music creation apps. My iPad is loaded with synths, sequencers, and effects. AUM in particular is an amazing program for live performances mixing both software and hardware using a touch interface. Many, but not all, of the programs I use on iPad are also available on Mac and Windows at much higher prices. That alone is reason enough to use a iPad. Most of these apps can be run on the least expensive iPad and/or older ones. Like it or not, computing appliances have led to really good software markets. The “clean and honest” software markets are either much more expensive or don’t exist at all. The optimist in me is hoping that Android losing some freedom might lead to higher quality software and some actual competition to Apple.
Fergusonb 1y ago
I just switched to the iPhone with the new cycle, explicitly because of this news. Sideloading was the killer feature for me as well.
- drnick1 1y ago
  > I just switched to the iPhone with the new cycle, explicitly because of this news. And guess what, sideloading has never been allowed on iPhones. So you just went from bad to worse. The only rational option for tech-minded people nowadays is to buy a device that supports Lineage or Graphene (ironically Pixels are good for this) and to replace the stock OS.
  - strix_varius 1y ago
    Well no, the iPhone has niceties that Android lacks (as evidenced by its total market dominance for markets who can afford Apple devices). Lots of engineers use Android phones, but the C-suite invariably uses iPhones. So if the reason you're choosing Android over iOS is freedom and flexibility, once that's gone, why not choose slickness, speed, battery-life, photo quality, and an integrated experience?
    - drnick1 1y ago
      > the C-suite invariably uses iPhones. Hard to see that as a plus. I have owned iPhones in the past (and still have a couple of old models collecting dust in a drawer), and I don't think they are in any way more refined than my Pixel 9 running Graphene. Most importantly, it is immune to arbitrary restrictions like sideloading bans or government-mandated spyware (aka Chat Control in Europe).
    - disgruntledphd2 1y ago
      > (as evidenced by its total market dominance for markets who can afford Apple devices) This is only true in English speaking markets, the rich countries of Western Europe are much more Android heavy.
    - porridgeraisin 1y ago
AnonymousPlanet 1y ago
Android is losing a unique selling point. This will have an impact on what a techie may recommend to a non-techie in the future, because everything is beige now. I have the feeling Google has given up on using nerds as beachheads. The market is saturated enough and they don't need us anymore to do grass roots spreading of their products. It's the same with Youtube. As long as there were enough people who were unencumbered by ads because of their ad block and kept spreading links, the importance of Youtube was growing. After market saturation that vehicle isn't necessary anymore and they can squeeze them out.
- echelon 1y ago
  This is unacceptable. Google needs to be broken up. Apple too. The lack of antitrust enforcement is a clown show. We have no choice in the most important computing category in the world. It's a duopoly and they have everyone in straightjackets - consumers, companies, competitors, governments, ... A huge percentage of the world's thoughts and economy flow through mobile. And two companies own it. Ma Bell was nothing compared to this.
  - gizmo686 1y ago
    Breaking up Google will not help in this particular case. The problem is entirely within the Android unit; and would still be present even if Android were to be split off into it's own company. It certainly seems like there is problematic behavior in the restrictions Google puts on OEMs that want to use Android (or, more specifically, play services) on their devices. However, I think it would take a different enforcement mechanism to address that.
    - Palmik 1y ago
      Disabling the ability to install arbitrary apps, like ReVanced, etc. benefits other parts of Alphabet. In general, making anti consumer decisions is also easier when you know you can fall back on income from other units.
      - 1y ago
colordrops 1y ago
It's ironic that they pull this bullshit while at the same time putting out their "Vanilla Pro" ad mocking Apple's ecosystem. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnWykPvftfg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnWykPvftfg
hahn-kev 1y ago
Probably the only real benefit now is Firefox/alt browsers
- WD-42 1y ago
  Firefox with UBO is still a huge win. But Orion browser is making progress. At this point I just don’t see a reason to go android anymore. If I have to be part of a walled garden I may as well choose the nicer one.
  - drnick1 1y ago
    For me the main reason to stick to FOSS Android ROMs (over a Linux phone) is that you retain compatibility with thousands of very good FOSS and non-FOSS apps. There is Waydroid, and it works very well, but if you are primarily running Android apps, an Android device makes more sense.
    - WD-42 1y ago
      Isn't the Android rom scene in shambles? What phone would you have to buy now to be able to even run decent a decent custom ROM?
      - drnick1 1y ago
        Graphene and Lineage work great on Pixel 9s.
      - jhasse 1y ago
        No. One of these: https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/ https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/
blurbleblurble 1y ago
I might as well get a landline/dumbphone and a small linux tablet.
Buttons840 1y ago
Switching to iPhone will make it even more obvious there is an unhealthy monopoly, so that's nice. If there's no good reason to choose Android, why not?
- goku12 1y ago
  What we really need is a fair alternative to both these abuse platforms. Choosing an unfamiliar abuse over a familiar abuse isn't exactly the smartest move. The switch over to a free(dom) platform like plain Linux must happen even if we have to make some temporary sacrifices like the loss of mobile banking facilities. It can't be worse than using a feature phone, can it? The app ecosystem will eventually attain parity if the platform achieves popularity.
  - jhasse 1y ago
    Multiple alternatives already exists. Or how do you define "fair"?
    - goku12 1y ago
      Fair as in fairness. An alternative that plays fairly with me by respecting my rights as a consumer. And yes, I agree that there are multiple alternatives. The problem is that they are not viable yet. Most of them are buggy and missing crucial features. Even if those were resolved, we'll still have holdouts like banking apps, transportation apps, shopping apps, etc that rely on platform attestation and geolocking (worthless and harmful features, IMO). The question is, how do we take them mainstream? Their situation is like those of the Linux and the BSDs of the late 90s till 2010. The platforms are not popular enough to garner attention and support from service providers. The only solution to this market share problem is for a bunch of us to just dive right in by adopting them, put up with all the inconveniences for a while (a long while), convince everyone we can to adopt it by pretending that it's the cool new trend and then complain to every organization, agency and government that they are discriminating against us by not supporting our platform. At some point, everyone will take it up. Hopefully!
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
1vuio0pswjnm7 1y ago
"If I can't do this anymore..." How will Google force Android users to "update" so sideloadinng can be prevented Non-updated versions of Android running non-updated versions of sideloaded apps will not have the restriction Another example of how not every "update" is for "security" and "updates" should be optional The computer owner chooses one version of an operating system, e.g., "I chose Android because I can sideload any app", but by allowing automatic updates, without reviewing them first, the computer owner agrees to let the operating system vendor change the software remotely to anything the vendor chooses. The computer owner goes along with whatever the vendor decides, letting the vendor take them for a ride If the operating system gets _worse_ in the opinion of the computer owner, if it fails to meet their needs, e.g., "sideloading", then that's too bad. The computer owner chose one version of Android, but by subscribing to "automatic updates" they effectively chose all future versions as well This is why I prefer BSD UNIX-like operating system projects where I can choose to update or not to update. Unlike the hypothetical Android user, the project does not decide for me HN replies may try to draw attention to "security" and away from "sideloading restriction". However there is no option to accept "security updates" while rejecting "sideloading restriction updates". According to the so-called "tech" companies that conduct data collection and surveillance as a "business model" through free, auto-updated software, every update, no matter what it contains, is deemed essential and critical for "security" Online commentators seem to agree that the computer owner should have the choice to install or not install _any_ software outside the "app store", so-called "sideloading". Perhaps this freedom to choose whether to install or not install software should also apply to operating system "updates"
- alex23478 1y ago
  > How will Google force Android users to "update" so sideloadinng can be prevented Google has the Google Play Services, which can be remotely updated via the Play Store, as has been done for the COVID exposure notification system [0]. Google's Play Protect already hooks into the installation process and could be updated to enforce the signatures. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exposure_Notification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exposure_Notification
- SpaceNugget 1y ago

by itg 1y ago

63stack 1y ago

Same, I'm tempted to call android just a shittier iPhone now

Aachen 1y ago
What part of cheaper, better, and open source is shittier exactly?
- pkulak 1y ago
  > What part of cheaper The iPhone 17 is the same price as the Pixel 10 > better But the iPhone 17 has better hardware features, like UWB, better cameras, and a _far_ faster CPU. > open source Only if you install Graphene, and then never install anything that requires Google Play Services, which is basically every commercial app.
  - blackbear_ 1y ago
    GOS allows you to install and use apps from the Play Store and the vast majority of them works flawlessly.
  - xigoi 1y ago
    > The iPhone 17 is the same price as the Pixel 10 Too bad there aren’t any other Android phones…
  - rangestransform 1y ago
    > and a _far_ faster CPU. No longer true with the newest chip that Mediatek cooked up, ARM licensed cores like C1 are catching up rapidly with Apple CPUs (or maybe Apple has hit the limit of their current design philosophy)
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - terminalshort 1y ago
    In terms of cameras, my pixel takes way better pictures than any iphone, and people I know with iphones (which is basically everyone) admit it.
    - krabizzwainch 1y ago
      Mine was better until Google kept forcing AI sharpening and making things look worse.
      - terminalshort 1y ago
        Which pixel do you have? I have the 9, and I don't seem to have that problem.
    - jerojero 1y ago
      I have an 8 pro. A month or so ago I went to NYC, I visited some of the museums. Although I managed to get some great pictures, framing wise and sharpness wise. The color resolution was absolutely ridiculously bad. I couldn't figure out a way in that moment to fix the issue, but seriously, the colors were so far off it kinda ruined this phone for me. My friend had an iphone, we took the same pictures of the same paintings and his photos looked much closer to life than mine. Huge disappointment. In the iphone its very easy to shoot raw and the camera app has a lot of very good intuitive controls. Not to even begin talking about video. At some point I think Google did make really good photography phones but it seems to me like they've basically stopped trying to stay ahead of the competition whereas apple is always trying to improve. Thats my impression anyway.
  - brailsafe 1y ago
    > The iPhone 17 is the same price as the Pixel 10 I mean, flagship vs flagship idk if one has ever been significantly cheaper, but I've never been in the market for those either. It's very easy to get a higher priced, more interesting, highly specced Android phone. Both iPhones and flagship android phones are way too expensive for what they are capable of compared to any of their own prior generations of themselves, if you ignore tech specs and consider the tangible end-user functionality, but even still. I've always bought the phone that suits me in the moment, have never budgeted higher than $600CAD, and have simply never been interested in iPhones beyond what used to be nice industrial design. For that, last time I got a brand new Pixel 7 on sale, Pixel 4a, Nexus 5 etc.. and they've all done what I needed and usually came close to matching the fancier versions in some ways in the same year's lineup. Usually though I have breadth of options to pick from across a range of brands that I can choose between based on whatever the hell I prefer. iPhones are just iPhones, bigger or smaller, more expensive or cheaper, big camera plateau or small, and that's all fine too. The sideloading aspect for me and a better sense of control is absolutely a component in that preference, and I'll have to consider that going forward, but I'd sooner just dial back my dependence on phones in general than switch to an iPhone.
  - akimbostrawman 1y ago
    >requires Google Play Services, which is basically every commercial app. Not my experience at all. Only some banking apps or apps that otherwise hard depend on play services feature like google pay. GrapheneOS offer isolated unprivileged sandboxed Google play services for those.
- array_key_first 1y ago
  1. Not cheaper. 2. I think it's better, I like the UX but that's subjective. 3. Not open source. AOSP is open source. Android is not open source.
  - stronglikedan 1y ago
    It's certainly cheaper when you compare phones with like specs.
    - dangus 1y ago
      Not by much these days. The Pixel 10 actually gives you half the storage as the iPhone 17 at the same price. The only Android phones that are significantly cheaper than equivalent iPhone tend to come with some kind of compromise (and don’t forget that Apple’s phones start at $600 - the iPhone 16e exists).
      - vbezhenar 1y ago
        Try Xiaomi.
        all2 1y ago
        I did. I cannot recommend it. There is no real way to unlock bootloaders on these. They've locked it down so much that you can't really do anything but run what they give you.
        dangus 1y ago
        Not sold in the US officially, no warranty service.
        gkbrk 1y ago
        Xiaomi phones have built-in ads, that's one of the reasons it gets to be cheaper.
        dangus 1y ago
- realusername 1y ago
  Cheaper for sure, better maybe but open source certainly not, AOSP doesn't run on a single device on earth, not even the emulators.
  - floxy 1y ago
    I'm out of the loop on this. What is Graphene doing? https://grapheneos.org/features https://grapheneos.org/features >GrapheneOS is a private and secure mobile operating system with great functionality and usability. It starts from the strong baseline of the Android Open Source Project (AOSP) and takes great care to avoid increasing attack surface or hurting the strong security model.
    - realusername 1y ago
      They are doing it like everybody else, they have their own system apps (because they got kind of unmaintainted by Google in AOSP since Android 12), they add drivers from the pixel device tree and then they add their security patches. If you would put AOSP on a Pixel, it wouldn't even boot and if you managed to get it to boot, the apps would be unusable.
- constantcrying 1y ago
  Over the last years Android has gotten increasingly worse, which is something you just have to expect from a Google product. It is still unbelievable to me that Google is shipping a product which takes 10 seconds to show anything when I search through my phones settings. What are they doing? >open source Sure. If you buy the right phone you get some open source components. Of course half the Android companies are trying to funnel you into their proprietary ecosystem as well. The rest just wants you to use Google's proprietary ecosystem.
  - surajrmal 1y ago
    Everything in settings loads near instantly for me including search. What exactly has gotten worse with Android recently?
  - xp84 1y ago
    > takes 10 seconds to show anything when I search through my phones settings Ah, I see ol' Google's been shamelessly copying Apple again. Unrelated but related to embarrassingly-bad search: On my iPhone, I have a Hacker News reader app called Octal. Now when I search the phone itself for "octal" (like I do to launch most apps), sometimes the only result found is... the Octal entry under Settings (where iOS sticks the permission-granting interface for notifications, location, etc.) Can't find the app itself. Just the settings for it.

brazukadev 1y ago

> Installing any app I want outside the Play Store was the primary reason I decided to go with Android You still can do that with PWAs in Android. Let's see for how long.

_imnothere 1y ago
> PWAs And I wonder when can we stop lying to ourselves pretending "web"-apps are real (native) apps?
- llbbdd 1y ago
  Why?
  - pooyamo 1y ago
    Can you create and run a service that starts when phone is turned on, with a PWA app? Usecase is a backup daemon.
    - claytongulick 1y ago
      Does every app need to do this? I make lots of "real" healthcare apps that are PWAs. Much better installation and user experience, no dev cert nonsense, brain dead simple updates, no app store, etc...
      - 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 1y ago
        Backup, file sync, and chat... very common and important use cases. Not everything can start with a user request.
        Rohansi 1y ago
        You shouldn't need a service running all the time for chat. Just use push notifications.
1y ago

jadbox 1y ago

You can still install apps outside the play store, but the developer does need to verify their signing information. Effectively this means that any app you install must have a paper trail to the originating developer, even if its not on the app store. On one hand, I can see the need for this to track down virus creators, but on the other, it provides Google transparency and control over side loaded app. It IS a concerning move, but currently this is far from 'killing' non-appstore apps for most of the market.

detectivestory 1y ago
From a quick glance at /r/GooglePlayDeveloper/ it looks like Google is just as interested in killing playstore apps! It seems that they only want to support the existing larger apps now. I think they are giving a clear message to developers that its not really worth developing for that platform anymore. I think we will all agree that the playstore needed a purge but they seem to be making it impossible for any new solo devs at this point.
- jadbox 1y ago
  I have no idea what this means. How does this change "kill playstore apps"?
  - andrewl-hn 1y ago
    Not related to this particular news item, but several high-profile App developers are either killing their apps on Android entirely (like iA Writer) or removing features due to Google tightening submission requirements and increasing costs for apps that integrate with their services.
  - detectivestory 1y ago
    not the change mentioned in the news link. I was referring to what people are discussing over on the reddit play store sub. Google are terminating dev accounts without giving any reasons or warnings. I'm sure most, if not all terminations have have some element of justification but ultimately it means that Google seem pretty happy to terminate any dev account without letting the developer know why. And to make things worse, that developer is forever banned from ever publishing any content on the playstore for life. They cannot make a new account. Their career in android app development can be destroyed in an instant. Most terminations seem to be handled by bots... and to rub salt in the wound, Google only responds to appeals... using more bots. That is according to what the community has been saying at least. I'm sure they know what they are doing and one thing we all know is that Google actually IS big enough not to fail. But it does seem like the right thing to at least make new developers more aware of the risks. And it is obviously a very stressful time for anyone who is actually making a living off an android app.

wiether 1y ago

And in the EU you can install apps outside of the AppStore on your iPhone!

gumby271 1y ago
But not outside of Apple's control, they have a very similar mechanism to this verification process with 3rd party app stores.
Croak 1y ago
Thats a recent addition; hope consumer protection laws around the world become better.

gdulli 1y ago

Then you'd be rewarding the company that pioneered and normalized taking away these rights. The next rights you'll lose will probably originate on Apple again years before Google takes them away too.

rs186 1y ago
It doesn't make any difference anyway, does it? Then I might as well treat myself with better hardware & ecosystem.
- ethbr1 1y ago
  Better hardware, yes. But you'll be reminded quickly how comparatively shit Apple's software is. Aka the litany of "Oh, yeah, everyone knows that's broken but just deals with it, because there's no way to fix issues on a closed platform other than {wait for Apple}."
  - blibble 1y ago
    my iphone doesn't reboot every time I try to take a picture or make a phone call (on every pixel I've had) android sucks, but it was open now it just sucks
    - BenjiWiebe 1y ago
      How many pixels have you had that reboot when you take a picture or make a phone call? My pixels haven't done that (yet anyways).
      - blibble 1y ago
        4
  - rs186 1y ago
    I will take Apple's software over Samsung's ad infested, buggy & ugly software any day.

JohnTHaller 1y ago

You can still side-load signed apps. It's a similar limitation to macOS which won't let you run apps that Apple hasn't signed without command line or control panel shenanigans. Compared to iOS, Android still has the advantage of installing your own full browser (like Firefox) with full-fat ad blocking (uBlock Origin, not Lite). iOS is Safari-only right now though, in theory, some alternative engines may be available in Europe later.

TuringTest 1y ago
If they need to be signed by Google, that's not side loading by definition; it's using an alternate Google channel.
koolala 1y ago
What your describing isn't "side-loading". Doing that means the apps go through Google's chain of control. Please don't let them redefine the word.
ptrl600 1y ago
With macOS you run "sudo spctl --master disable", and then you can run whatever you want without sending PII to Apple. Is that the case with the new Android stuff?
- flawn 1y ago
  No, the closest would be rooting your phone but then you can't use banking apps properly (there are loopholes to spoof integrity but they are slowly coming to an end as verification runs on TEE)
  - jhasse 1y ago
    Couldn't you install with adb without rooting?
- jhasse 1y ago
  We don't know yet. At the moment side-loading still works without restrictions.

jamesnorden 1y ago

>I may as well switch and be able to use iMessage and FaceTime with them I, too, love vendor lockin.

vivalahn 1y ago
Another road that leads to BBM it seems. It’s utterly bizarre how BBM could have been the iMessage and WhatsApp and who knows what else. But rich out-of-touch people thinking exclusivity is a perk in a commodities market just shows how business savvy and wealth are in reality disconnected from eachother.
- stackskipton 1y ago
  BBM could have been great lock in IF OS and Hardware experience was not so bad. For vast majority, Android vs iPhone is not massively different so iMessage availability is a draw for some people.
  - vivalahn 1y ago
    BBM itself should not have been a lock-in. It would have taken incredibly little effort to open it as a desktop messenger that can seamlessly interact with people who have BBM numbers for example. I doubt they learned their lessons. Apple walked all over them in so many ways and, if memory serves me right, they even mocked Steve Jobs over the iPhone. Edit: just so I’m clear I’m discussing it from the perspective of early to mid 2000s. iPhone hadn’t yet come out, but iPods were popular. Trillian and Pidgin were dominating the online landscape of software that could support multiple chat protocols - seamless ICQ, AIM, IRC, Yahoo, MSN Messenger, all in one program. If there was a time for RIM to corner the market here it was right then and there because BBM was the real deal, being available on phones and they could have signed agreements with others to bring it to, for example, Nokia and Motorola and whoever else. But no. They’d rather be arrogant and stupid.
    - vanviegen 1y ago
      > they even mocked Steve Jobs over the iPhone. Isn't that just doing their jobs as executives for a competitor? Though internally, one would hope they were sounding some alarm bells. Though at the time, it wasn't at all obvious that people could get used to doing relatively serious typing on a small (even tiny back then) virtual keyboard.

xandrius 1y ago

Check UbuntuTouch, it's really a nice third option. The OS is refreshing and the dev community active. We do not have to choose the lesser of two evils this time.

cons0le 1y ago
I wonder if banking and messaging apps will work on it in the future
- jolmg 1y ago
  Re: banking, not until adoption of non-Android and non-iOS devices grows. To break this chicken and egg problem, one can get an Android phone and use it exclusively for the banking app, treating it like one of those hardware security keys the banks used to give out in the early 2010s. One used to just leave it at home; maybe take it to work occasionally. Another option is to live like the early 2000s and go to an ATM/bank for all bank things, including account consultation.
  - WD-42 1y ago
    Or use the banks website from a computer? Which banks do not allow this?
    - londons_explore 1y ago
      Many banks in Europe are app-only and don't allow you to log in with a web browser.
      - WD-42 1y ago
        Yikes. That sounds tough.
      - ahartmetz 1y ago
        In Germany at least, that's only the ones that advertise being an "app bank". It's the last thing that I want, but they exist.

FranzFerdiNaN 1y ago

Maybe it’s because I’m European but I’ve never understood what iMessage even is or what it offers above either sms or WhatsApp/signal. And I’ve used an iPhone for the past 15 years.

rkomorn 1y ago
For me, mainly: no international cost, no metered cost (other than data), no extra app like WhatsApp to install (but other party needs iOS). Edit: that said, nowadays, maybe because I'm back in the EU, I use WhatsApp way more often than iMessage.
- BenjiWiebe 1y ago
  It is easier, however, to install WhatsApp then to switch from Android to iOS.
  - rkomorn 1y ago
    Of course. iMessage is just a convenience when someone else has an iPhone.

treyd 1y ago

You could also use a thirdparty ROM.

colordrops 1y ago
How long until AOSP deviates so much from features in 3rd party ROMs that it becomes infeasible to for amateur developers to maintain them?
- treyd 1y ago
  AOSP is used in many contexts like embedded devices where somehow enshackling it would screw up Google's self-interest in other market areas (like ensuring there is a wider population of Android developers). But regardless, thirdparty ROMs will continue to exist regardless of how much effort it takes because the demand exists and will not merely dissipate.
  - colordrops 1y ago
    Demand exists for a lot of things that don't exist. There's no technical reason that the internet couldn't have stayed mostly decentralized, with everyone hosting a node at their house, controlling their own data and feeds, with an experience not much different from current services and social media, and people would absolutely want this if the experience was reliable and had good UX. But so much effort has been shunted to centralized services that it never materialized. The demand is there, I've asked many people. Just one counterexample. I'm working on a project myself but it's taking forever considering the large scope. Getting close to having it ready for technical individuals to try it out. https://homefree.host https://homefree.host

XorNot 1y ago

F-droid routinely delivers me higher quality, more reliable apps that do exactly what I need then to do too. It's become my go-to for "I need a utility for X task".

Grimblewald 1y ago
Same here. F droid gives clean functional and reliable apps while playstore is a dumpsterfire.

observationist 1y ago

Refuse to participate in either walled garden. There are no good reasons left to use either platform - you're basically paying an arm and a leg to rent a device whose primary purpose is to usurp your attention and plunder your wallet at every possible opportunity. Use and encourage your circle to use Signal, so you're not limited to any given platform, or the political or ideological whims of the gardenmeisters. Google has gone full enshittified with this move, might as well move as far and as fast away from all the shit if you're technically capable, introduce whatever pressure you can to signal that there's a desperate need in the smartphone market for something clean and honest.

musictubes 1y ago
“There are no good reasons” really? One of my favorite things about iOS/ipados is the incredible selection of music creation apps. My iPad is loaded with synths, sequencers, and effects. AUM in particular is an amazing program for live performances mixing both software and hardware using a touch interface. Many, but not all, of the programs I use on iPad are also available on Mac and Windows at much higher prices. That alone is reason enough to use a iPad. Most of these apps can be run on the least expensive iPad and/or older ones. Like it or not, computing appliances have led to really good software markets. The “clean and honest” software markets are either much more expensive or don’t exist at all. The optimist in me is hoping that Android losing some freedom might lead to higher quality software and some actual competition to Apple.

Fergusonb 1y ago

I just switched to the iPhone with the new cycle, explicitly because of this news. Sideloading was the killer feature for me as well.

drnick1 1y ago
> I just switched to the iPhone with the new cycle, explicitly because of this news. And guess what, sideloading has never been allowed on iPhones. So you just went from bad to worse. The only rational option for tech-minded people nowadays is to buy a device that supports Lineage or Graphene (ironically Pixels are good for this) and to replace the stock OS.
- strix_varius 1y ago
  Well no, the iPhone has niceties that Android lacks (as evidenced by its total market dominance for markets who can afford Apple devices). Lots of engineers use Android phones, but the C-suite invariably uses iPhones. So if the reason you're choosing Android over iOS is freedom and flexibility, once that's gone, why not choose slickness, speed, battery-life, photo quality, and an integrated experience?
  - drnick1 1y ago
    > the C-suite invariably uses iPhones. Hard to see that as a plus. I have owned iPhones in the past (and still have a couple of old models collecting dust in a drawer), and I don't think they are in any way more refined than my Pixel 9 running Graphene. Most importantly, it is immune to arbitrary restrictions like sideloading bans or government-mandated spyware (aka Chat Control in Europe).
  - disgruntledphd2 1y ago
    > (as evidenced by its total market dominance for markets who can afford Apple devices) This is only true in English speaking markets, the rich countries of Western Europe are much more Android heavy.
  - porridgeraisin 1y ago

AnonymousPlanet 1y ago

Android is losing a unique selling point. This will have an impact on what a techie may recommend to a non-techie in the future, because everything is beige now. I have the feeling Google has given up on using nerds as beachheads. The market is saturated enough and they don't need us anymore to do grass roots spreading of their products. It's the same with Youtube. As long as there were enough people who were unencumbered by ads because of their ad block and kept spreading links, the importance of Youtube was growing. After market saturation that vehicle isn't necessary anymore and they can squeeze them out.

echelon 1y ago
This is unacceptable. Google needs to be broken up. Apple too. The lack of antitrust enforcement is a clown show. We have no choice in the most important computing category in the world. It's a duopoly and they have everyone in straightjackets - consumers, companies, competitors, governments, ... A huge percentage of the world's thoughts and economy flow through mobile. And two companies own it. Ma Bell was nothing compared to this.
- gizmo686 1y ago
  Breaking up Google will not help in this particular case. The problem is entirely within the Android unit; and would still be present even if Android were to be split off into it's own company. It certainly seems like there is problematic behavior in the restrictions Google puts on OEMs that want to use Android (or, more specifically, play services) on their devices. However, I think it would take a different enforcement mechanism to address that.
  - Palmik 1y ago
    Disabling the ability to install arbitrary apps, like ReVanced, etc. benefits other parts of Alphabet. In general, making anti consumer decisions is also easier when you know you can fall back on income from other units.
    - 1y ago

colordrops 1y ago

It's ironic that they pull this bullshit while at the same time putting out their "Vanilla Pro" ad mocking Apple's ecosystem. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnWykPvftfg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnWykPvftfg

hahn-kev 1y ago

Probably the only real benefit now is Firefox/alt browsers

WD-42 1y ago
Firefox with UBO is still a huge win. But Orion browser is making progress. At this point I just don’t see a reason to go android anymore. If I have to be part of a walled garden I may as well choose the nicer one.
- drnick1 1y ago
  For me the main reason to stick to FOSS Android ROMs (over a Linux phone) is that you retain compatibility with thousands of very good FOSS and non-FOSS apps. There is Waydroid, and it works very well, but if you are primarily running Android apps, an Android device makes more sense.
  - WD-42 1y ago
    Isn't the Android rom scene in shambles? What phone would you have to buy now to be able to even run decent a decent custom ROM?
    - drnick1 1y ago
      Graphene and Lineage work great on Pixel 9s.
    - jhasse 1y ago
      No. One of these: https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/ https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/

blurbleblurble 1y ago

I might as well get a landline/dumbphone and a small linux tablet.

Buttons840 1y ago

Switching to iPhone will make it even more obvious there is an unhealthy monopoly, so that's nice. If there's no good reason to choose Android, why not?

goku12 1y ago
What we really need is a fair alternative to both these abuse platforms. Choosing an unfamiliar abuse over a familiar abuse isn't exactly the smartest move. The switch over to a free(dom) platform like plain Linux must happen even if we have to make some temporary sacrifices like the loss of mobile banking facilities. It can't be worse than using a feature phone, can it? The app ecosystem will eventually attain parity if the platform achieves popularity.
- jhasse 1y ago
  Multiple alternatives already exists. Or how do you define "fair"?
  - goku12 1y ago
    Fair as in fairness. An alternative that plays fairly with me by respecting my rights as a consumer. And yes, I agree that there are multiple alternatives. The problem is that they are not viable yet. Most of them are buggy and missing crucial features. Even if those were resolved, we'll still have holdouts like banking apps, transportation apps, shopping apps, etc that rely on platform attestation and geolocking (worthless and harmful features, IMO). The question is, how do we take them mainstream? Their situation is like those of the Linux and the BSDs of the late 90s till 2010. The platforms are not popular enough to garner attention and support from service providers. The only solution to this market share problem is for a bunch of us to just dive right in by adopting them, put up with all the inconveniences for a while (a long while), convince everyone we can to adopt it by pretending that it's the cool new trend and then complain to every organization, agency and government that they are discriminating against us by not supporting our platform. At some point, everyone will take it up. Hopefully!

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

1vuio0pswjnm7 1y ago

"If I can't do this anymore..." How will Google force Android users to "update" so sideloadinng can be prevented Non-updated versions of Android running non-updated versions of sideloaded apps will not have the restriction Another example of how not every "update" is for "security" and "updates" should be optional The computer owner chooses one version of an operating system, e.g., "I chose Android because I can sideload any app", but by allowing automatic updates, without reviewing them first, the computer owner agrees to let the operating system vendor change the software remotely to anything the vendor chooses. The computer owner goes along with whatever the vendor decides, letting the vendor take them for a ride If the operating system gets _worse_ in the opinion of the computer owner, if it fails to meet their needs, e.g., "sideloading", then that's too bad. The computer owner chose one version of Android, but by subscribing to "automatic updates" they effectively chose all future versions as well This is why I prefer BSD UNIX-like operating system projects where I can choose to update or not to update. Unlike the hypothetical Android user, the project does not decide for me HN replies may try to draw attention to "security" and away from "sideloading restriction". However there is no option to accept "security updates" while rejecting "sideloading restriction updates". According to the so-called "tech" companies that conduct data collection and surveillance as a "business model" through free, auto-updated software, every update, no matter what it contains, is deemed essential and critical for "security" Online commentators seem to agree that the computer owner should have the choice to install or not install _any_ software outside the "app store", so-called "sideloading". Perhaps this freedom to choose whether to install or not install software should also apply to operating system "updates"

alex23478 1y ago
> How will Google force Android users to "update" so sideloadinng can be prevented Google has the Google Play Services, which can be remotely updated via the Play Store, as has been done for the COVID exposure notification system [0]. Google's Play Protect already hooks into the installation process and could be updated to enforce the signatures. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exposure_Notification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exposure_Notification
SpaceNugget 1y ago