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Heroin addicts often seem normal

165 points by surprisetalk 1y ago

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
Waterluvian 1y ago
I think anecdotes about addiction by individuals rather than organizations are an important source for growing trustful understanding of addiction. Whether we like it or not we’re in a world where every org is perceived to have a self-serving agenda.
hk1337 1y ago
This is anecdotal but I think heroin, or any drug, addicts often seem normal to those who have never taken drugs or been addicted. I remember my step brother mentioning that my cousin, now dead from an overdose, was high once when he seemed perfectly normal to me.
- justonceokay 1y ago
  It’s not necessarily that you’ve done it. It’s that you’ve spent time around addicts. Often these are overlapping life circumstances though..
  - etempleton 1y ago
    Once you know the signs, either because you’ve done drugs or been around people who have done a lot of drugs, you see that a lot of people everywhere are high on something. People always think all opioid addicts are slumped over passed out all the time. And that is usually only when their addiction is really far gone. Early on heroin addicts take moderate doses and keep on functioning. They watch a movie or play video games. You hear people talk about how “clean” the high is, because unlike alcohol they wake up the next day feeling great with no hangover. And they aren’t physically dependent at first, so they think, hey, this is nothing like all of the scary PSAs said it was.
- bravetraveler 1y ago
  At a certain point one is "maintaining 0". High is "not on the floor writhing or worse." That said, there can be signs. You may find them normalized from exposure. Or, perhaps: hidden, your cousin maintained appearances. With time and circumstance, everyone slips. Sometimes it's seen. My (much older) brother managed his addiction, and appearances, well at work for decades. Now clean, thank goodness.
- frumplestlatz 1y ago
  I have my own addictions, and to be honest, I expect everyone to notice and no one ever says anything. Sometimes I wonder if it’s that they don’t notice, or everyone is just too polite, or a mixture of both.
an0malous 1y ago
Between all the coffee, nicotine, CBD, pain killers, psychiatric meds, hormones, nootropics, and micro dosing who’s even normal anymore?
- rurban 1y ago
  Don't forgot sugar, which is stronger than cocaine
  - tayo42 1y ago
    I never sold possessions to buy more sugar...
    - t-3 1y ago
      ... because sugar is extremely cheap. Even if it was legal, cocaine would be impossible to get that cheap, unless some DNA editing is done to make yeast shit it out maybe. If sugar cost $100/gram I could see crime happening to be able to taste some candy or non-sour bread.
      - lblume 1y ago
        The cheapness is due to the prevalence, and the prevalence of sugar caused sweetness receptors to be evolutionarily advantageous. There is no world in which sugar is extremely expensive, markets still function basically in the way they do now and humans experience the sensation of sweetness the way they typically do now. Cocaine and other types of "hard" drugs are qualitatively different in that regard. Your example also doesn't really hold up because people typically don't process cocaine in the way they do with sugar and other carbohydrates. In your hypothetical scenario, we might see people consuming large amounts of pure sugar (or artificial sweeteners), but they wouldn't go to lengths of baking bread using it.
      - badpun 1y ago
        Back when sugar first appeared in Europe, it was only affordable to upper-middle classes and above. And yet, I haven't heard about any addicts robbing people so that they can afford sugar. I don't think it's holding quite the same grasp on people as some narcotics do.
buildsjets 1y ago
Article should be titled “Heroin Addicts Who Can Afford To Support Their Habit Often Seem Normal.” His roommate’s klepto friend sure seemed abnormal. Also, my understanding from folk who do use is that heroin doesn’t exist in meaningful quantity in today’s market. It’s all fent. Even the stuff that claims to be h is cut with fent, and maybe xylazine if you are especially unlucky.
- mattmaroon 1y ago
  This is actually why I think all recreational drugs should be legal. I know of approximately 0 people who have had the thought “I’d try heroin if it were legal”. All making it illegal does is make the supply deadly. I truly believe that there would be fewer addicts and fewer overdoses if you could buy regulated heroin.
  - ofrzeta 1y ago
    It's certainly true and in civilized countries (like the Swiss I think) the state offers the possibility to have your drugs screened and you can get clean syringes. Makes so much more sense than to criminialize addicted humans.
    - Nursie 1y ago
      In Switzerland, at the appropriate facilities, the state provides heroin to addicts. This has a dual effect - addicts get clean drugs and take them under medical supervision, reducing deaths, helping funnel some towards programs that will eventually get them clean etc. With this sort of support it turns out that people no longer steal to get their fix either, and can usually even hold down employment pretty well. But also the young folk get to see these tired, worn out, older people queuing outside the clinic in the morning to get their fix and realise hey, maybe that isn't so cool and edgy after all... Seems like a good plan to me, the problem is (as ever) puritans and their politicians, it's an easy thing to screech about. All it would take to kill it dead in a lot of countries would be someone standing up to shout "The opposition party want to spend YOUR tax money giving DRUGS to filthy JUNKIES!"
  - 1y ago
ipnon 1y ago
Normal is totally context dependent. It’s normal when you’re a young adult to have lots of transient friendships, sleep in, live with people you aren’t close to. Our behaviors are consequences of our environment more often than not. This idea raises many questions about the reproducibility of certain cultures outside of specific locales, Silicon Valley being an obvious example.
itsme0000 1y ago
I was an “alcoholic” for many years. It ruined my life and alienated me from many people I love. Then I met a wonderful woman who wouldn’t give up on me. We went to the doctor over and over again until I was diagnosed with dystonia, a disease which alcohol relieves the painful symptoms of. Once I knew that I wasn’t simply cured, but I had the hope and the knowledge to see though my pain. Many other drugs are the same way. It’s easier to get these classes of drug illegally rather than legally. People who do these drugs know there’s something wrong with them, but they remain defiant and strong in the face of a society projecting its own decadence onto them. If you do drugs or alcohol and you know it hurts you and want to stop, there is always hope for you as long as you can accept help. I know from experience. And to all you who need drugs, but reject a diagnosis. As Big L said “If that’s what you need to maintain, go ahead and do your thang.”
- zeroq 1y ago
  This. Most people do drugs or alcohol for kicks or to put the pain away, as in general, but there are a lot of people who are self medicating symptoms they are well aware and they know this "medicine" works for them. Breaking out of that habit is extremly hard. At the beginning of covid I found myself in a really dark place and opted to seek help with psychotherapy. I had a long story of health and legal issues and I often told my peers that second opinion is key, no one is omnipotent and with hard legal or medical case it's worth seeking out opinion of at least two professionals (and if their opinions are contradicting - keep seeking). I met eleven certified experts. At the beginning of my journey one of them, guy with stellar reviews, upon hearing that I haven't been properly diagnosed, but I suspect I might be on the spectrum looked at me and said "no... I'm looking at you look perfectly healthy". One after five sessions when I said I'm not getting any feedback, like anything, I was the only one talking during the sessions, told me it take years to get to the core. Long story short - just before someone advertise as an expert doesn't mean they know anything, or they care. Even in highly regulated circuit.
  - Our_Benefactors 1y ago
    > told me it take years to get to the That’s the grift — healing sold as a subscription. The incentive for therapists to behave this way can’t be regulated away because the regulation itself acts as a cover for this behavior: credentials, ethics boards, continuing-ed checkboxes — all window dressing to sanctify creating a dependency in the patient. The system launders manipulation through professionalism and calls it care.
monster_truck 1y ago
[flagged]
analog8374 1y ago
If they seem normal then what's the problem? (other than the stigma and associated difficulties)
- mbac32768 1y ago
  ... half of them die very young?
- achierius 1y ago
  The massive monetary outflows necessary to maintain a baseline level of enjoyment that non-addicts get for fre?
  - analog8374 1y ago
    That would be one of those stigma-associated difficulties to which I referred.
  - anal_reactor 1y ago
    Functional addiction is indistinguishable from having an expensive hobby.
- heavyset_go 1y ago
  Persecution from the state
twodave 1y ago
FWIW opiate addicts in particular (and probably others as well) often do seem normal. That’s the addiction. They need the drugs to not go into withdrawal. By the time they’re addicted they either aren’t feeling the high anymore or they’re inching closer to a deadly OD or both.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
bitwize 1y ago
A girl I knew in high school died of a heroin OD. She was the sweetest kindest girl as I knew her, and was a teacher at the time of her death.
- markus_zhang 1y ago
  This feels so sad. What happened to her?
  - squigz 1y ago
    She died of a heroin overdose?
    - jtbaker 1y ago
      This seems a little disingenuous. I read it as more "what led to her addiction, given the other outwardly positive parts of her life?"
  - bitwize 1y ago
    I don't know what it was exactly, but I think it was some combination of chronic pain and the stress of her profession.
    - markus_zhang 1y ago
      Oh that was really sad. Chronic pain is really bad.
s5300 1y ago
[dead]
edgineer 1y ago
This is just one facet of communities that stays opaque. I mean scientific literature, statistics, and demographics only go so far. Things done privately stay secret unless something severely breaks, or someone speaks up. Slice of life bits like this are good; if only we could have them come in large sample sizes, uniformly distributed.
charcircuit 1y ago
Functional or not it is illegal. Both functional and non functional heroine users can be put into prison for life with no parole and it will fix both the problems of dysfunctional people roaming around and people dying from it. With real consequences people will actively avoid such substances. It will clean up society and disincentivize new people from trying as they will bot want to give up their life and family for something so petty. It needs to be overwhelmingly obvious that it will mess up your life for good if you try or distribite even a little bit.
- hsbauauvhabzb 1y ago
  You’re right, we should also shoot the left handed and start persecuting religions we don’t like by sending them to death camps.
  - charcircuit 1y ago
    In the US is not illegal to be left handed, nor does being left handed ruin anyone's life. It is in no way comparable.
    - dragonmost 1y ago
      Why help people when you can just get rid of them instead /s
      - charcircuit 1y ago
        The goal is to improve life for law abiding citizens. Removing these from society is helping all the people in society. 2 birds with 1 stone.
        vidarh 1y ago
        It's not helping the addicts. Nor is it helping the people who don't want to live under a brutally oppressive and cruel regime.
lazyasciiart 1y ago
This is an important topic, because people spend time and money pushing for social policies based on their belief that all opioid users are the homeless, dysfunctional people they see living on the street. Washington state has had republicans pushing for laws that would allow CPS to remove kids from a parent based entirely on the information that the parent uses illegal opioids [0]. If you think all of those parents are living in tents and motels and begging for food while spending the day high, this might sound reasonable. Putting kids in foster care is better than letting them die, is the argument. But it isn’t reasonable, partly because there are so many opioid addicts that don’t show up in measures of homelessness etc. These laws would involve putting 10,000 kids into foster care so that maybe 10 deaths are prevented - and this would overwhelm the foster system entirely, tripling the size in an instant, so you’d almost certainly see ten children die because they were put into the system. [0] As an example of the level of thought and knowledge going into these attempts, one legislator wrote a bill that said any opioid use meant CPS should remove your child. Don’t know if they didn’t know it could be a prescribed medication or what.
- aniviacat 1y ago
  I would assume CPS in the context of drug addicts are not just worried about basic living conditions, but also about neglect by the parents. I would be worried about the child of an alcohol addict, let alone an opioid addict. But this is just an assumption; I don't actually know of any statistics correlating addiction with neglect.
  - reorder9695 1y ago
    I would wonder though how many opioid addicts are more addicted for literal pain relief reasons, to give a bad comparison someone like House on the TV show. In that case I could see it working out fine, that's much more like buying pain medication illegally because you can't afford or can't see a doctor for some reason.
  - throwaway173738 1y ago
    CPS doesn’t draw a distinction between living conditions and neglect. They are only supposed to look for neglect and abuse, including placing children in unsafe situations. Their guidance documents are full of statements like “it is not neglect for children to share a bedroom.”
hoppp 1y ago
Maybe the problem is not really the drugs but mental illness and some people are just miserable. Those folks become the stereotype drug addict, not because of the drug but other things in life
ijidak 1y ago
Heroin is a name brand drug designed for pain by Bayer. Later it became the illegal substance it is today. I imagine patients seemed perfectly normal at the time it was released, otherwise it would never have been released for widespread medical use. But, like fentanyl, a subset of the population exhibits the extreme behaviors that become stereotypical.
- renewiltord 1y ago
  It is the same for fentanyl. I was administered many of these drugs in the ICU and never felt like taking any more after I healed months later. Some fraction of the population has chronic pain and uses this to manage and some other fraction uses it for the euphoric feeling.
- vidarh 1y ago
  Diamorphine - heroins generic name - is still prescribed for pain in many countries, including the UK.
  - narcotraffico1 1y ago
    diacetylmorphine
    - vidarh 1y ago
      Same thing. Diamorphine is the name used by the NHS in the UK at least, as well as the European Union Drugs Agency.
  - projectazorian 1y ago
    Ironically the US uses fentanyl for palliative care instead due to prohibition.
everyone 1y ago
In 19th century England, a lot of people were opium addicts, even a prime minister apparently; but it wasnt much of a problem as habituees could buy high quality opium at a reasonable price, get their fix, and otherwise live normal lives. Interesting book on the topic https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/158925.The_Pursuit_of_Oblivion https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/158925.The_Pursuit_of_Ob...
jacquesm 1y ago
I've spent the first 25 years of my life around addicts of all sorts, you name it, they did it. A short list: smoking, coke, H, alcohol, cannabis, hash etc. Some didn't make it (mostly, the heroin and alcohol addicts, as well as a substantial number of the smokers), some lost their mental faculties (alcohol, cannabis, hash, coke), some kicked their habits (very, very few) and some managed to keep it going for years up to and including today. I've seen more than I really care for in that sense, including what these substances do to people that once upon a time were nice and functioning adults, both friends and family. If there is anything I'm grateful for it is that they cured me once and for all from even trying any of this stuff. If they were as smart and capable as they seemed and all but a very rare exception ended up much, much worse than they started out (ostracized, poor, extremely ill or dead) then it seemed like a very simple decision not to partake. And this is where it gets annoying: but the people who do all these things also excel in peer pressure, they'll try anything to get you to join them in their misery. In the end I just came to the conclusion it isn't worth it, and stopped interacting with people that don't have their habits under control. This is also a hard decision but I really don't have the energy. As the article writes: heroin addicts often seem normal, but that's mostly compared to other people around them, rarely compared to the person that they were before they became addicts, the differences for those cases that I knew were stark and that's before we get into all of the side effects.
- louwrentius 1y ago
  Is this really about the impact of drugs on people or about the impact of how drugs users are vilified and ostracized, the impact of living on the streets?
  - jacquesm 1y ago
    That's just the end stage, and it can take a long time before you get there. And none of these people were 'vilified' unless they gave direct cause for that.
    - louwrentius 1y ago
      Drug use in and of itself is heavily stigmatized, causing people to be “discarded” and ostracized as deeply ingrained in - for example- USA culture. Their drug use wasn’t a problem in and of itself until other people decided to treat them differently.
TrackerFF 1y ago
I grew up in rural nowhere, and so, so many of my HS peers ended up as addicts. From my observation, I'd usually group the addicts in two types: Those predisposition to addiction, often combined with deeply traumatic events in life, and those that get addicted by accident or just with time. The first group were the visible ones. The kids that came from broken homes, and had experienced abuse or similar traumatic events. They'd start acting out young, be introduced to alcohol, weed, and pills at age 12-15. By the time they were 18, they'd be full-blown addicts to anything the could get their hands on. Since they had no income, they'd supply their drug use by crime. Burglaries, robberies, theft, scams, everything. Eventually they'd move away, and become homeless junkies in a larger town - or extremely rarely, they'd become sober. The other group of people, those that became addicts by accident or just over time, would be "stealth" addicts - at least until it all boiled over. Some of these people would become addicts after injuries/operations and serious painkillers. Others would escalate their weekend drinking to trying various drugs, and then become weekend users. Until it spilled over to their weekdays. Some could quit/become sober. Others could stick to weekend usage, and many would just slowly circle their drain. How "functional" one can be, really depends on whether you have the means to support your habit, and how it affects your work + private life. You only need to be caught once, really. With heroin, your biggest risk is that there's really not many dealers that are pushing heroin. And if you're a full-blown addict, you likely won't say no to whatever replacement they're selling. That's the time old slipper slope: Become addicted to oxys after surgery or injury -> purchase oxy from dealers when your prescription is used up -> start shooting whatever junk the dealers are selling -> OD
mettamage 1y ago
We don't live in times where we can have a normal conversation about drugs. Long story short: drugs have different effects on people. If one decides to try drugs, they are throwing the dice what random effects (positive or negative) they get bestowed upon them. There are functional people that use drugs, there are dysfunctional people that use drugs. Some people stay functional because of drugs, some people stay functional despite the drugs counteracting it. Dysfunctional people were perhaps already dysfunctional or they became dysfunctional because of the drugs. There are probably a few more categories, I don't know about percentages. It differs per type of drug how these percentages shift. Anything hitting dopamine hard that also works the next day or so, will have a strong addictive tendency to it. So it shifts towards being dysfunctional. I've met people of all kinds. I haven't met functional heroin users though. I've only met functional alcoholics or functional psychedelic users that dabbled in the dopaminergic side of drugs but never actually used (the "I used <famous addictive drug> once" crowd). I've met dysfunctional drug users for all classes of drugs, including psychedelics. It's hard to say if it was the drugs that made them dysfunctional or if it was an apriori case. Though in some cases it was easy. Here's a pro tip: don't use drugs at 14. Some people that were teenagers in the 60s and 70s had it rough. We had no clue what we were doing. I'm Dutch. People living in Amsterdam were definitely more affected than most cities during those times. Weed was the gateway drug, working in a coffeeshop opened up a world to more drugs (since wholesaling weed is still illegal, so you meet people that have access to drugs other than weed). The people that heal from drugs certainly have it rough. Here's a thing that can heal them but everyone stutters and stammers at the illegality of it. It's such fucking bullshit. The politics of it is bullshit. Can't we just be scientific about this already? There are enough users out there to perform natural experiments. Enough countries have actual testing stations and testing labs. It's time to actually study this thing. And I know, there are studies, but the science on it is slow due to the illegality. It's bullshit really. Just study the damn things already, especially psychedelic drugs. They don't seem to be physically addictive. I guess given the current political climate, this is a tough ask perhaps. Forgive me for that, my perspective is inherently European. Also, an interesting TED talk that I saw a while back about morphine addicts [1]. [1] https://www.ted.com/talks/johann_hari_everything_you_think_you_know_about_addiction_is_wrong https://www.ted.com/talks/johann_hari_everything_you_think_y...
- 1y ago
roughly 1y ago
As a good general starting point, assuming other people are broadly similar to you is a pretty good starting point. It helps avoid cartoonish assumptions and provides a fairly good lens for understanding behavior - instead of seeing someone do something and thinking “I would never,” going through the process of figuring out under what conditions you would, in fact, do the thing you’re seeing that other person is doing can be a great way to enrich your understanding of the world.
burnt-resistor 1y ago
Anecdotal evidence: I used to know a colorful and awesome ex heroin addict who was in his 70's and was a journalist and lived the counterculture hippie zeitgeist. His mind was perfectly sharp, sharper than mine, but his bones and teeth were totally destroyed. He couldn't sit up or stand straight and was in constant pain. But he kept his sense of humor.
mpalmer 1y ago
The Point I’m not sure I have one. Amen, not everything needs a Big Clear Lesson. Thanks for sharing your perspective
cwmoore 1y ago
Why are drugs illegal? It’s the law.
johnnienaked 1y ago
I predict in the near future right-wingers will use drug hysteria as a pretext to set up an international police apparatus.” — William S. Burroughs
robocat 1y ago
I too have had serious drug using friends that were no trouble to me personally. However, people in their social circle were seriously problematic. People users. One in particular was a sociopath (he proudly talked about the diagnosis and the whole story is frightening).
syndacks 1y ago
I recommend the books Cherry or Wasting Talent for two semi-autobiographical novels that show heavy/gnarly addiction. As a non addict, it wasn’t until I read a book like these until I was able gain more empathy for the spiral. Unlike news articles or stats, these offer much more human (perhaps mildly fabricated) anecdotes of how seemingly impossible it is for addicts to get clean. I’m aware my consumption of these stories borders on “poverty porn”, while also helping me empathize with that side of the human condition.
baerrie 1y ago
The existing state of society, economics, and governance in the US has led to many people and communities being left behind. Rather than support our people, we call them addicts and jail them for mental health issues. The US is an experiment in replacing true deep community bonds enjoyed by older nations with our purely fiscal bonds. A side-effect of this is that problems without lucrative solutions remain unsolved.
phaser 1y ago
This reminds me of the heartbreaking story of “The Lawyer, the Addict”, which was a reality check for me. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/15/business/lawyers-addiction-mental-health.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/15/business/lawyers-addictio...

165 points by surprisetalk 1y ago

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

I think anecdotes about addiction by individuals rather than organizations are an important source for growing trustful understanding of addiction. Whether we like it or not we’re in a world where every org is perceived to have a self-serving agenda.

hk1337 1y ago

This is anecdotal but I think heroin, or any drug, addicts often seem normal to those who have never taken drugs or been addicted. I remember my step brother mentioning that my cousin, now dead from an overdose, was high once when he seemed perfectly normal to me.

justonceokay 1y ago
It’s not necessarily that you’ve done it. It’s that you’ve spent time around addicts. Often these are overlapping life circumstances though..
- etempleton 1y ago
  Once you know the signs, either because you’ve done drugs or been around people who have done a lot of drugs, you see that a lot of people everywhere are high on something. People always think all opioid addicts are slumped over passed out all the time. And that is usually only when their addiction is really far gone. Early on heroin addicts take moderate doses and keep on functioning. They watch a movie or play video games. You hear people talk about how “clean” the high is, because unlike alcohol they wake up the next day feeling great with no hangover. And they aren’t physically dependent at first, so they think, hey, this is nothing like all of the scary PSAs said it was.
bravetraveler 1y ago
At a certain point one is "maintaining 0". High is "not on the floor writhing or worse." That said, there can be signs. You may find them normalized from exposure. Or, perhaps: hidden, your cousin maintained appearances. With time and circumstance, everyone slips. Sometimes it's seen. My (much older) brother managed his addiction, and appearances, well at work for decades. Now clean, thank goodness.
frumplestlatz 1y ago
I have my own addictions, and to be honest, I expect everyone to notice and no one ever says anything. Sometimes I wonder if it’s that they don’t notice, or everyone is just too polite, or a mixture of both.

an0malous 1y ago

Between all the coffee, nicotine, CBD, pain killers, psychiatric meds, hormones, nootropics, and micro dosing who’s even normal anymore?

rurban 1y ago
Don't forgot sugar, which is stronger than cocaine
- tayo42 1y ago
  I never sold possessions to buy more sugar...
  - t-3 1y ago
    ... because sugar is extremely cheap. Even if it was legal, cocaine would be impossible to get that cheap, unless some DNA editing is done to make yeast shit it out maybe. If sugar cost $100/gram I could see crime happening to be able to taste some candy or non-sour bread.
    - lblume 1y ago
      The cheapness is due to the prevalence, and the prevalence of sugar caused sweetness receptors to be evolutionarily advantageous. There is no world in which sugar is extremely expensive, markets still function basically in the way they do now and humans experience the sensation of sweetness the way they typically do now. Cocaine and other types of "hard" drugs are qualitatively different in that regard. Your example also doesn't really hold up because people typically don't process cocaine in the way they do with sugar and other carbohydrates. In your hypothetical scenario, we might see people consuming large amounts of pure sugar (or artificial sweeteners), but they wouldn't go to lengths of baking bread using it.
    - badpun 1y ago
      Back when sugar first appeared in Europe, it was only affordable to upper-middle classes and above. And yet, I haven't heard about any addicts robbing people so that they can afford sugar. I don't think it's holding quite the same grasp on people as some narcotics do.

buildsjets 1y ago

Article should be titled “Heroin Addicts Who Can Afford To Support Their Habit Often Seem Normal.” His roommate’s klepto friend sure seemed abnormal. Also, my understanding from folk who do use is that heroin doesn’t exist in meaningful quantity in today’s market. It’s all fent. Even the stuff that claims to be h is cut with fent, and maybe xylazine if you are especially unlucky.

mattmaroon 1y ago
This is actually why I think all recreational drugs should be legal. I know of approximately 0 people who have had the thought “I’d try heroin if it were legal”. All making it illegal does is make the supply deadly. I truly believe that there would be fewer addicts and fewer overdoses if you could buy regulated heroin.
- ofrzeta 1y ago
  It's certainly true and in civilized countries (like the Swiss I think) the state offers the possibility to have your drugs screened and you can get clean syringes. Makes so much more sense than to criminialize addicted humans.
  - Nursie 1y ago
    In Switzerland, at the appropriate facilities, the state provides heroin to addicts. This has a dual effect - addicts get clean drugs and take them under medical supervision, reducing deaths, helping funnel some towards programs that will eventually get them clean etc. With this sort of support it turns out that people no longer steal to get their fix either, and can usually even hold down employment pretty well. But also the young folk get to see these tired, worn out, older people queuing outside the clinic in the morning to get their fix and realise hey, maybe that isn't so cool and edgy after all... Seems like a good plan to me, the problem is (as ever) puritans and their politicians, it's an easy thing to screech about. All it would take to kill it dead in a lot of countries would be someone standing up to shout "The opposition party want to spend YOUR tax money giving DRUGS to filthy JUNKIES!"
- 1y ago

ipnon 1y ago

Normal is totally context dependent. It’s normal when you’re a young adult to have lots of transient friendships, sleep in, live with people you aren’t close to. Our behaviors are consequences of our environment more often than not. This idea raises many questions about the reproducibility of certain cultures outside of specific locales, Silicon Valley being an obvious example.

itsme0000 1y ago

I was an “alcoholic” for many years. It ruined my life and alienated me from many people I love. Then I met a wonderful woman who wouldn’t give up on me. We went to the doctor over and over again until I was diagnosed with dystonia, a disease which alcohol relieves the painful symptoms of. Once I knew that I wasn’t simply cured, but I had the hope and the knowledge to see though my pain. Many other drugs are the same way. It’s easier to get these classes of drug illegally rather than legally. People who do these drugs know there’s something wrong with them, but they remain defiant and strong in the face of a society projecting its own decadence onto them. If you do drugs or alcohol and you know it hurts you and want to stop, there is always hope for you as long as you can accept help. I know from experience. And to all you who need drugs, but reject a diagnosis. As Big L said “If that’s what you need to maintain, go ahead and do your thang.”

zeroq 1y ago
This. Most people do drugs or alcohol for kicks or to put the pain away, as in general, but there are a lot of people who are self medicating symptoms they are well aware and they know this "medicine" works for them. Breaking out of that habit is extremly hard. At the beginning of covid I found myself in a really dark place and opted to seek help with psychotherapy. I had a long story of health and legal issues and I often told my peers that second opinion is key, no one is omnipotent and with hard legal or medical case it's worth seeking out opinion of at least two professionals (and if their opinions are contradicting - keep seeking). I met eleven certified experts. At the beginning of my journey one of them, guy with stellar reviews, upon hearing that I haven't been properly diagnosed, but I suspect I might be on the spectrum looked at me and said "no... I'm looking at you look perfectly healthy". One after five sessions when I said I'm not getting any feedback, like anything, I was the only one talking during the sessions, told me it take years to get to the core. Long story short - just before someone advertise as an expert doesn't mean they know anything, or they care. Even in highly regulated circuit.
- Our_Benefactors 1y ago
  > told me it take years to get to the That’s the grift — healing sold as a subscription. The incentive for therapists to behave this way can’t be regulated away because the regulation itself acts as a cover for this behavior: credentials, ethics boards, continuing-ed checkboxes — all window dressing to sanctify creating a dependency in the patient. The system launders manipulation through professionalism and calls it care.

monster_truck 1y ago

[flagged]

analog8374 1y ago

If they seem normal then what's the problem? (other than the stigma and associated difficulties)

mbac32768 1y ago
... half of them die very young?
achierius 1y ago
The massive monetary outflows necessary to maintain a baseline level of enjoyment that non-addicts get for fre?
- analog8374 1y ago
  That would be one of those stigma-associated difficulties to which I referred.
- anal_reactor 1y ago
  Functional addiction is indistinguishable from having an expensive hobby.
heavyset_go 1y ago
Persecution from the state

twodave 1y ago

FWIW opiate addicts in particular (and probably others as well) often do seem normal. That’s the addiction. They need the drugs to not go into withdrawal. By the time they’re addicted they either aren’t feeling the high anymore or they’re inching closer to a deadly OD or both.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

bitwize 1y ago

A girl I knew in high school died of a heroin OD. She was the sweetest kindest girl as I knew her, and was a teacher at the time of her death.

markus_zhang 1y ago
This feels so sad. What happened to her?
- squigz 1y ago
  She died of a heroin overdose?
  - jtbaker 1y ago
    This seems a little disingenuous. I read it as more "what led to her addiction, given the other outwardly positive parts of her life?"
- bitwize 1y ago
  I don't know what it was exactly, but I think it was some combination of chronic pain and the stress of her profession.
  - markus_zhang 1y ago
    Oh that was really sad. Chronic pain is really bad.

s5300 1y ago

[dead]

edgineer 1y ago

This is just one facet of communities that stays opaque. I mean scientific literature, statistics, and demographics only go so far. Things done privately stay secret unless something severely breaks, or someone speaks up. Slice of life bits like this are good; if only we could have them come in large sample sizes, uniformly distributed.

charcircuit 1y ago

Functional or not it is illegal. Both functional and non functional heroine users can be put into prison for life with no parole and it will fix both the problems of dysfunctional people roaming around and people dying from it. With real consequences people will actively avoid such substances. It will clean up society and disincentivize new people from trying as they will bot want to give up their life and family for something so petty. It needs to be overwhelmingly obvious that it will mess up your life for good if you try or distribite even a little bit.

hsbauauvhabzb 1y ago
You’re right, we should also shoot the left handed and start persecuting religions we don’t like by sending them to death camps.
- charcircuit 1y ago
  In the US is not illegal to be left handed, nor does being left handed ruin anyone's life. It is in no way comparable.
  - dragonmost 1y ago
    Why help people when you can just get rid of them instead /s
    - charcircuit 1y ago
      The goal is to improve life for law abiding citizens. Removing these from society is helping all the people in society. 2 birds with 1 stone.
      - vidarh 1y ago
        It's not helping the addicts. Nor is it helping the people who don't want to live under a brutally oppressive and cruel regime.

lazyasciiart 1y ago

This is an important topic, because people spend time and money pushing for social policies based on their belief that all opioid users are the homeless, dysfunctional people they see living on the street. Washington state has had republicans pushing for laws that would allow CPS to remove kids from a parent based entirely on the information that the parent uses illegal opioids [0]. If you think all of those parents are living in tents and motels and begging for food while spending the day high, this might sound reasonable. Putting kids in foster care is better than letting them die, is the argument. But it isn’t reasonable, partly because there are so many opioid addicts that don’t show up in measures of homelessness etc. These laws would involve putting 10,000 kids into foster care so that maybe 10 deaths are prevented - and this would overwhelm the foster system entirely, tripling the size in an instant, so you’d almost certainly see ten children die because they were put into the system. [0] As an example of the level of thought and knowledge going into these attempts, one legislator wrote a bill that said any opioid use meant CPS should remove your child. Don’t know if they didn’t know it could be a prescribed medication or what.

aniviacat 1y ago
I would assume CPS in the context of drug addicts are not just worried about basic living conditions, but also about neglect by the parents. I would be worried about the child of an alcohol addict, let alone an opioid addict. But this is just an assumption; I don't actually know of any statistics correlating addiction with neglect.
- reorder9695 1y ago
  I would wonder though how many opioid addicts are more addicted for literal pain relief reasons, to give a bad comparison someone like House on the TV show. In that case I could see it working out fine, that's much more like buying pain medication illegally because you can't afford or can't see a doctor for some reason.
- throwaway173738 1y ago
  CPS doesn’t draw a distinction between living conditions and neglect. They are only supposed to look for neglect and abuse, including placing children in unsafe situations. Their guidance documents are full of statements like “it is not neglect for children to share a bedroom.”

hoppp 1y ago

Maybe the problem is not really the drugs but mental illness and some people are just miserable. Those folks become the stereotype drug addict, not because of the drug but other things in life

ijidak 1y ago

Heroin is a name brand drug designed for pain by Bayer. Later it became the illegal substance it is today. I imagine patients seemed perfectly normal at the time it was released, otherwise it would never have been released for widespread medical use. But, like fentanyl, a subset of the population exhibits the extreme behaviors that become stereotypical.

renewiltord 1y ago
It is the same for fentanyl. I was administered many of these drugs in the ICU and never felt like taking any more after I healed months later. Some fraction of the population has chronic pain and uses this to manage and some other fraction uses it for the euphoric feeling.
vidarh 1y ago
Diamorphine - heroins generic name - is still prescribed for pain in many countries, including the UK.
- narcotraffico1 1y ago
  diacetylmorphine
  - vidarh 1y ago
    Same thing. Diamorphine is the name used by the NHS in the UK at least, as well as the European Union Drugs Agency.
- projectazorian 1y ago
  Ironically the US uses fentanyl for palliative care instead due to prohibition.

everyone 1y ago

In 19th century England, a lot of people were opium addicts, even a prime minister apparently; but it wasnt much of a problem as habituees could buy high quality opium at a reasonable price, get their fix, and otherwise live normal lives. Interesting book on the topic https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/158925.The_Pursuit_of_Oblivion https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/158925.The_Pursuit_of_Ob...

jacquesm 1y ago

I've spent the first 25 years of my life around addicts of all sorts, you name it, they did it. A short list: smoking, coke, H, alcohol, cannabis, hash etc. Some didn't make it (mostly, the heroin and alcohol addicts, as well as a substantial number of the smokers), some lost their mental faculties (alcohol, cannabis, hash, coke), some kicked their habits (very, very few) and some managed to keep it going for years up to and including today. I've seen more than I really care for in that sense, including what these substances do to people that once upon a time were nice and functioning adults, both friends and family. If there is anything I'm grateful for it is that they cured me once and for all from even trying any of this stuff. If they were as smart and capable as they seemed and all but a very rare exception ended up much, much worse than they started out (ostracized, poor, extremely ill or dead) then it seemed like a very simple decision not to partake. And this is where it gets annoying: but the people who do all these things also excel in peer pressure, they'll try anything to get you to join them in their misery. In the end I just came to the conclusion it isn't worth it, and stopped interacting with people that don't have their habits under control. This is also a hard decision but I really don't have the energy. As the article writes: heroin addicts often seem normal, but that's mostly compared to other people around them, rarely compared to the person that they were before they became addicts, the differences for those cases that I knew were stark and that's before we get into all of the side effects.

louwrentius 1y ago
Is this really about the impact of drugs on people or about the impact of how drugs users are vilified and ostracized, the impact of living on the streets?
- jacquesm 1y ago
  That's just the end stage, and it can take a long time before you get there. And none of these people were 'vilified' unless they gave direct cause for that.
  - louwrentius 1y ago
    Drug use in and of itself is heavily stigmatized, causing people to be “discarded” and ostracized as deeply ingrained in - for example- USA culture. Their drug use wasn’t a problem in and of itself until other people decided to treat them differently.

TrackerFF 1y ago

I grew up in rural nowhere, and so, so many of my HS peers ended up as addicts. From my observation, I'd usually group the addicts in two types: Those predisposition to addiction, often combined with deeply traumatic events in life, and those that get addicted by accident or just with time. The first group were the visible ones. The kids that came from broken homes, and had experienced abuse or similar traumatic events. They'd start acting out young, be introduced to alcohol, weed, and pills at age 12-15. By the time they were 18, they'd be full-blown addicts to anything the could get their hands on. Since they had no income, they'd supply their drug use by crime. Burglaries, robberies, theft, scams, everything. Eventually they'd move away, and become homeless junkies in a larger town - or extremely rarely, they'd become sober. The other group of people, those that became addicts by accident or just over time, would be "stealth" addicts - at least until it all boiled over. Some of these people would become addicts after injuries/operations and serious painkillers. Others would escalate their weekend drinking to trying various drugs, and then become weekend users. Until it spilled over to their weekdays. Some could quit/become sober. Others could stick to weekend usage, and many would just slowly circle their drain. How "functional" one can be, really depends on whether you have the means to support your habit, and how it affects your work + private life. You only need to be caught once, really. With heroin, your biggest risk is that there's really not many dealers that are pushing heroin. And if you're a full-blown addict, you likely won't say no to whatever replacement they're selling. That's the time old slipper slope: Become addicted to oxys after surgery or injury -> purchase oxy from dealers when your prescription is used up -> start shooting whatever junk the dealers are selling -> OD

mettamage 1y ago

We don't live in times where we can have a normal conversation about drugs. Long story short: drugs have different effects on people. If one decides to try drugs, they are throwing the dice what random effects (positive or negative) they get bestowed upon them. There are functional people that use drugs, there are dysfunctional people that use drugs. Some people stay functional because of drugs, some people stay functional despite the drugs counteracting it. Dysfunctional people were perhaps already dysfunctional or they became dysfunctional because of the drugs. There are probably a few more categories, I don't know about percentages. It differs per type of drug how these percentages shift. Anything hitting dopamine hard that also works the next day or so, will have a strong addictive tendency to it. So it shifts towards being dysfunctional. I've met people of all kinds. I haven't met functional heroin users though. I've only met functional alcoholics or functional psychedelic users that dabbled in the dopaminergic side of drugs but never actually used (the "I used <famous addictive drug> once" crowd). I've met dysfunctional drug users for all classes of drugs, including psychedelics. It's hard to say if it was the drugs that made them dysfunctional or if it was an apriori case. Though in some cases it was easy. Here's a pro tip: don't use drugs at 14. Some people that were teenagers in the 60s and 70s had it rough. We had no clue what we were doing. I'm Dutch. People living in Amsterdam were definitely more affected than most cities during those times. Weed was the gateway drug, working in a coffeeshop opened up a world to more drugs (since wholesaling weed is still illegal, so you meet people that have access to drugs other than weed). The people that heal from drugs certainly have it rough. Here's a thing that can heal them but everyone stutters and stammers at the illegality of it. It's such fucking bullshit. The politics of it is bullshit. Can't we just be scientific about this already? There are enough users out there to perform natural experiments. Enough countries have actual testing stations and testing labs. It's time to actually study this thing. And I know, there are studies, but the science on it is slow due to the illegality. It's bullshit really. Just study the damn things already, especially psychedelic drugs. They don't seem to be physically addictive. I guess given the current political climate, this is a tough ask perhaps. Forgive me for that, my perspective is inherently European. Also, an interesting TED talk that I saw a while back about morphine addicts [1]. [1] https://www.ted.com/talks/johann_hari_everything_you_think_you_know_about_addiction_is_wrong https://www.ted.com/talks/johann_hari_everything_you_think_y...

1y ago

roughly 1y ago

As a good general starting point, assuming other people are broadly similar to you is a pretty good starting point. It helps avoid cartoonish assumptions and provides a fairly good lens for understanding behavior - instead of seeing someone do something and thinking “I would never,” going through the process of figuring out under what conditions you would, in fact, do the thing you’re seeing that other person is doing can be a great way to enrich your understanding of the world.

burnt-resistor 1y ago

Anecdotal evidence: I used to know a colorful and awesome ex heroin addict who was in his 70's and was a journalist and lived the counterculture hippie zeitgeist. His mind was perfectly sharp, sharper than mine, but his bones and teeth were totally destroyed. He couldn't sit up or stand straight and was in constant pain. But he kept his sense of humor.

mpalmer 1y ago

The Point I’m not sure I have one. Amen, not everything needs a Big Clear Lesson. Thanks for sharing your perspective

cwmoore 1y ago

Why are drugs illegal? It’s the law.

johnnienaked 1y ago

I predict in the near future right-wingers will use drug hysteria as a pretext to set up an international police apparatus.” — William S. Burroughs

robocat 1y ago

I too have had serious drug using friends that were no trouble to me personally. However, people in their social circle were seriously problematic. People users. One in particular was a sociopath (he proudly talked about the diagnosis and the whole story is frightening).

syndacks 1y ago

I recommend the books Cherry or Wasting Talent for two semi-autobiographical novels that show heavy/gnarly addiction. As a non addict, it wasn’t until I read a book like these until I was able gain more empathy for the spiral. Unlike news articles or stats, these offer much more human (perhaps mildly fabricated) anecdotes of how seemingly impossible it is for addicts to get clean. I’m aware my consumption of these stories borders on “poverty porn”, while also helping me empathize with that side of the human condition.

baerrie 1y ago

The existing state of society, economics, and governance in the US has led to many people and communities being left behind. Rather than support our people, we call them addicts and jail them for mental health issues. The US is an experiment in replacing true deep community bonds enjoyed by older nations with our purely fiscal bonds. A side-effect of this is that problems without lucrative solutions remain unsolved.

phaser 1y ago

This reminds me of the heartbreaking story of “The Lawyer, the Addict”, which was a reality check for me. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/15/business/lawyers-addiction-mental-health.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/15/business/lawyers-addictio...