9 ms·

Also, even AfD agrees with them on this.

by miohtama 1y ago

zahlman 1y ago
I don't understand why AfD would be expected to disagree here. What, just on principle, because it's CDU/CSU?
- razemio 1y ago
  AfD has f'd up views on many things. I wouldn't even be surprised if they would vote for it, as soon as they are in a position of power. However in its current state, they would hurt themselfs with a chat control law. So yes, your a right. I would also not expect them to vote for it.
  - camillomiller 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
    - bzzzt 1y ago
      While you can force law abiding people to give up their encryption because it's against the law there's no way to prevent encryption from being used by people that are already violating several laws...
    - wizzwizz4 1y ago
      However, for the same reason, it's in everybody else's best interest that an organisation that might be taken over by fascists not have access to a panopticon.
      - numpad0 1y ago
        I think that "everybody else" include literal fascists. Nazi's Gestapo had serious issues with Wernher von Braun to the point Hitler had to be bothered. East Germany's Stasi had more personnel per capita than Russian KGB had. They would know that a secret police in a German state isn't a great idea regardless of ideology. Had Hitler not able to stop Gestapo from sending von Braun to a death camp, not only history of spaceflight would have been delayed by decades, but the associated reputational bonuses to postwar Germany as "genius tech nerds that made a gross mistake" had been way lower. Not having the panopticon and just keeping freedom of speech and privacy as they are removes that type of risk. No way that serious neo-Nazis wouldn't think about that.
        KPGv2 1y ago
        > No way that serious neo-Nazis wouldn't think about that. Unless Germany's serious neo-Nazis are especially wiser than America's equivalent far-right groups (which have played the political game well enough to achieve significant power already), I am not sure current evidence supports this supposition.
    - croon 1y ago
      I wouldn't assume this to be their position were they already in power. They however need votes to get into power to implement that takeover. Parties like this inherently need to run on a (deceptive) populist platform for the plan to work.
    - lmf4lol 1y ago
      [flagged]
      - Asmod4n 1y ago
        The Verfassungsschutz disagrees with you.
        lmf4lol 1y ago
        The Verfassungsschutz is anything but objective. And even if: They don't at all claim that the AfD plans a "fascist takeover". I've read the whole report. Did you?
        lukan 1y ago
        Sure. That is why the former boss had to step down. But by now they surely weeded out all the nazi sympathisers? Are you aware of the NSU case? "They don't at all claim that the AfD plans a "fascist takeover"" But no, they don't claim that. They claim parts of the AfD plan a fascist takeover.
        lmf4lol 1y ago
        they also don’t claim the last thing.
        lukan 1y ago
        "https://netzpolitik.org/2025/verdachtsfall-rechtsextremismus-wir-veroeffentlichen-das-1-000-seitige-verfassungsschutz-gutachten-zur-afd/ https://netzpolitik.org/2025/verdachtsfall-rechtsextremismus..." Then maybe read again. "Der Verfassungsschutz belegt Bestrebungen gegen das Demokratieprinzip in der AfD. Auf allen Ebenen der Partei wird demnach die demokratische Nachkriegsentwicklung der Bundesrepublik diffamiert sowie der Staat und die Parteien verunglimpft. „Gewichtigen Teilen der Partei“ geht es „nicht mehr um eine scharfe kritische Auseinandersetzung in der Sache“. Stattdessen soll das Vertrauen in die verfassungsmäßige Ordnung „von Grund auf erschüttert“ werden, damit „die freiheitliche demokratische Grundordnung als Ganzes fragwürdig erscheine“. Der Verfassungsschutz belegt Bestrebungen gegen das Rechtsstaatsprinzip in der AfD. In der Partei wird demnach die Gewaltenteilung abgelehnt, das staatliche Gewaltmonopol infrage gestellt und sich auf ein vermeintlich legitimes Widerstandsrecht berufen. Einerseits ergeben diese Aussagen laut Gutachten „kein verfestigtes Bild innerhalb der Gesamtpartei“. Andererseits wäre die Verwirklichung der „menschenwürdewidrigen und diskriminierenden Vorstellungen letztlich nicht ohne eine Verletzung des Rechtsstaatsprinzips umsetzbar“." "Bei einer Kundgebung in Merseburg (ST) am 25. Mai 2020 konstatierte Daniel Wald (MdL, ST), dass im Zuge der Corona-Maßnahmen eine „Gesundheitsdiktatur“ errichtet worden sei, gegen die er zum Widerstand aufrief: „Die Not unseres Volkes fordert nicht mehr nur Worte, sondern endlich Taten. Wir sind deshalb keine Verschwörungstheoretiker. Im Gegenteil: Wir sind Verschwörer. Wir verschwören uns als Bürger, als echte Opposition, als ganzes Volk gegen den Komplex aus Systemmedien, Gewerkschaften und Altparteienfilz, die sich unseren Staat schon längst zur Beute gemacht haben. Wir, die AfD, stehen dabei an der Spitze des Widerstands, bis in diesem Volk wieder eine Politik gemacht wird, die im Dienste unseres Volkes steht.“" There are hundreds of statement verifying their goals of a violent takeover. They don't respect any of the democratic institution. They refer positiv to Nazi germany. They are connected to the literal Nazis of today. That is called preparing for a fascist takeover.
  - miroljub 1y ago
    AfD is consistently the pro-choice and pro-personal-freedom party in Germany. They are the only party advocating for an unrestricted American-style free speech and against all kinds of government mandates that other mainstream political parties are pushing. You may disagree (or agree) with many of their other views, but as an opposition party, they are precisely the corrective Germany and Europe need to keep the power-hungry elites in check.
    - FinnKuhn 1y ago
      They voted to ban the terms vegan sausage and vegan burger just earlier today. So much about being pro free speech. Votes by party affiliation and name to verify this can be accessed here: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/PV-10-2025-10-08-RCV_EN.html https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/PV-10-2025-10-...
      - janderson215 1y ago
        As an American currently in Germany, the food situation is soooo much better here and they would do well to not allow incorrect or misleading labels on consumer products. I understand what you’re saying about censorship, but this is a pretty weak example, IMO. We had something similar in the US with attempts to ban the word “milk” from “almond milk” [0]. Are there other examples that are more egregious? [0] https://arstechnica.com/science/2023/02/almond-milk-can-keep-its-name-despite-lack-of-lactation-fda-says/ https://arstechnica.com/science/2023/02/almond-milk-can-keep...
        aziaziazi 1y ago
        I dont understand that view : peanut butter, coconut milk, cacao butter and plenty, plenty others exemples exist probably since languages apparition. A vegetal burger shouldn’t be called beef burger obviously but we all know what almond milk means. The misleading argument isn’t serious but an attempt to block a cultural changes some don’t like or profit from.
        1y ago
- egeozcan 1y ago
  AfD is classified as extreme-right not only in the eyes of the public, but also by German intelligence. Therefore I'd personally expect them to support potential tools that authoritarian governments would find useful.
  - PKop 1y ago
    Open communication online about the problems of mass migration is what has fueled the rise of right wing parties across the west, so no they would not support suppressing communication (which is aimed primarily at stopping this very rise).
    - egeozcan 1y ago
      But this is not about suppressing all communication, this is ultimately about giving the ability to steer the conversation to avoid what people in power would find problematic.
  - SebKba 1y ago
    It's the classical playbook. Capture the media, declare the opposition illegal, bye bye democracy. The public was sold this Nazi story about the AfD by the established powers to keep them down. Looking at what has been going on it's wild to me to call the AfD authoritarian compared the the Altparteien...
    - camillomiller 1y ago
      [flagged]
    - angry_octet 1y ago
      The AfD are ultra right and leading figures have openly admitted that they contemplate killing migrants, de-islamification of Europe by expelling all muslims, breaking the EU, etc. They also scatter their speech with fascist dog whistles, and even Nazi slogans from the man in charge, Björn Höcke [1]. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/29/the-trial-of-bjorn-hocke-the-real-boss-of-germany-far-right https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/29/the-tr...
- slightwinder 1y ago
  AFDs operation-mode is to be always against the government and most others, so usually they are always debating against it, just because.. And in their case its far more than the usual playing opposition, they often switch even on their own stances. Additionally, this is something that would be in their ideological background. I guess they just fear to become victims themselves.
  - xt84 1y ago
    How can you write this when the other parties have a cordon sanitaire (Brandmauer)[0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cordon_sanitaire_(politics) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cordon_sanitaire_(politics)
    - slightwinder 1y ago
      How is that related? The other parties are not defining their opinions based on AFDs stance. Brandmauer only means they are not working with them, if it can be avoided, not they have to be different on everything. And most parties will have a different stance from the AFD naturally, simply by the fact that AFD are far right fascists.
- bayindirh 1y ago
  Conservatives sometimes have an interesting habit of using the freedoms to come into power and then take these freedoms away.
- quotemstr 1y ago
  Giving credit where it's due, even (or especially) to someone you find distasteful, is a mark of maturity and good character.
jagermo 1y ago
with their history of questionable chats and leaks i don't doubt it.
- lukan 1y ago
  But so far the only german politician convicted of posession of pedophile material comes from the SPD as far as I remember? (And the russia and china connections of the AfD should be a case for the secret services anyway. Unfortunately the former boss of one service is a fan of the party, so not sure if they are really looking now)

Also, even AfD agrees with them on this.

zahlman 1y ago

I don't understand why AfD would be expected to disagree here. What, just on principle, because it's CDU/CSU?

razemio 1y ago
AfD has f'd up views on many things. I wouldn't even be surprised if they would vote for it, as soon as they are in a position of power. However in its current state, they would hurt themselfs with a chat control law. So yes, your a right. I would also not expect them to vote for it.
- camillomiller 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - bzzzt 1y ago
    While you can force law abiding people to give up their encryption because it's against the law there's no way to prevent encryption from being used by people that are already violating several laws...
  - wizzwizz4 1y ago
    However, for the same reason, it's in everybody else's best interest that an organisation that might be taken over by fascists not have access to a panopticon.
    - numpad0 1y ago
      I think that "everybody else" include literal fascists. Nazi's Gestapo had serious issues with Wernher von Braun to the point Hitler had to be bothered. East Germany's Stasi had more personnel per capita than Russian KGB had. They would know that a secret police in a German state isn't a great idea regardless of ideology. Had Hitler not able to stop Gestapo from sending von Braun to a death camp, not only history of spaceflight would have been delayed by decades, but the associated reputational bonuses to postwar Germany as "genius tech nerds that made a gross mistake" had been way lower. Not having the panopticon and just keeping freedom of speech and privacy as they are removes that type of risk. No way that serious neo-Nazis wouldn't think about that.
      - KPGv2 1y ago
        > No way that serious neo-Nazis wouldn't think about that. Unless Germany's serious neo-Nazis are especially wiser than America's equivalent far-right groups (which have played the political game well enough to achieve significant power already), I am not sure current evidence supports this supposition.
  - croon 1y ago
    I wouldn't assume this to be their position were they already in power. They however need votes to get into power to implement that takeover. Parties like this inherently need to run on a (deceptive) populist platform for the plan to work.
  - lmf4lol 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - Asmod4n 1y ago
      The Verfassungsschutz disagrees with you.
      - lmf4lol 1y ago
        The Verfassungsschutz is anything but objective. And even if: They don't at all claim that the AfD plans a "fascist takeover". I've read the whole report. Did you?
        lukan 1y ago
        Sure. That is why the former boss had to step down. But by now they surely weeded out all the nazi sympathisers? Are you aware of the NSU case? "They don't at all claim that the AfD plans a "fascist takeover"" But no, they don't claim that. They claim parts of the AfD plan a fascist takeover.
        lmf4lol 1y ago
        they also don’t claim the last thing.
        lukan 1y ago
        "https://netzpolitik.org/2025/verdachtsfall-rechtsextremismus-wir-veroeffentlichen-das-1-000-seitige-verfassungsschutz-gutachten-zur-afd/ https://netzpolitik.org/2025/verdachtsfall-rechtsextremismus..." Then maybe read again. "Der Verfassungsschutz belegt Bestrebungen gegen das Demokratieprinzip in der AfD. Auf allen Ebenen der Partei wird demnach die demokratische Nachkriegsentwicklung der Bundesrepublik diffamiert sowie der Staat und die Parteien verunglimpft. „Gewichtigen Teilen der Partei“ geht es „nicht mehr um eine scharfe kritische Auseinandersetzung in der Sache“. Stattdessen soll das Vertrauen in die verfassungsmäßige Ordnung „von Grund auf erschüttert“ werden, damit „die freiheitliche demokratische Grundordnung als Ganzes fragwürdig erscheine“. Der Verfassungsschutz belegt Bestrebungen gegen das Rechtsstaatsprinzip in der AfD. In der Partei wird demnach die Gewaltenteilung abgelehnt, das staatliche Gewaltmonopol infrage gestellt und sich auf ein vermeintlich legitimes Widerstandsrecht berufen. Einerseits ergeben diese Aussagen laut Gutachten „kein verfestigtes Bild innerhalb der Gesamtpartei“. Andererseits wäre die Verwirklichung der „menschenwürdewidrigen und diskriminierenden Vorstellungen letztlich nicht ohne eine Verletzung des Rechtsstaatsprinzips umsetzbar“." "Bei einer Kundgebung in Merseburg (ST) am 25. Mai 2020 konstatierte Daniel Wald (MdL, ST), dass im Zuge der Corona-Maßnahmen eine „Gesundheitsdiktatur“ errichtet worden sei, gegen die er zum Widerstand aufrief: „Die Not unseres Volkes fordert nicht mehr nur Worte, sondern endlich Taten. Wir sind deshalb keine Verschwörungstheoretiker. Im Gegenteil: Wir sind Verschwörer. Wir verschwören uns als Bürger, als echte Opposition, als ganzes Volk gegen den Komplex aus Systemmedien, Gewerkschaften und Altparteienfilz, die sich unseren Staat schon längst zur Beute gemacht haben. Wir, die AfD, stehen dabei an der Spitze des Widerstands, bis in diesem Volk wieder eine Politik gemacht wird, die im Dienste unseres Volkes steht.“" There are hundreds of statement verifying their goals of a violent takeover. They don't respect any of the democratic institution. They refer positiv to Nazi germany. They are connected to the literal Nazis of today. That is called preparing for a fascist takeover.
- miroljub 1y ago
  AfD is consistently the pro-choice and pro-personal-freedom party in Germany. They are the only party advocating for an unrestricted American-style free speech and against all kinds of government mandates that other mainstream political parties are pushing. You may disagree (or agree) with many of their other views, but as an opposition party, they are precisely the corrective Germany and Europe need to keep the power-hungry elites in check.
  - FinnKuhn 1y ago
    They voted to ban the terms vegan sausage and vegan burger just earlier today. So much about being pro free speech. Votes by party affiliation and name to verify this can be accessed here: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/PV-10-2025-10-08-RCV_EN.html https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/PV-10-2025-10-...
    - janderson215 1y ago
      As an American currently in Germany, the food situation is soooo much better here and they would do well to not allow incorrect or misleading labels on consumer products. I understand what you’re saying about censorship, but this is a pretty weak example, IMO. We had something similar in the US with attempts to ban the word “milk” from “almond milk” [0]. Are there other examples that are more egregious? [0] https://arstechnica.com/science/2023/02/almond-milk-can-keep-its-name-despite-lack-of-lactation-fda-says/ https://arstechnica.com/science/2023/02/almond-milk-can-keep...
      - aziaziazi 1y ago
        I dont understand that view : peanut butter, coconut milk, cacao butter and plenty, plenty others exemples exist probably since languages apparition. A vegetal burger shouldn’t be called beef burger obviously but we all know what almond milk means. The misleading argument isn’t serious but an attempt to block a cultural changes some don’t like or profit from.
        1y ago
egeozcan 1y ago
AfD is classified as extreme-right not only in the eyes of the public, but also by German intelligence. Therefore I'd personally expect them to support potential tools that authoritarian governments would find useful.
- PKop 1y ago
  Open communication online about the problems of mass migration is what has fueled the rise of right wing parties across the west, so no they would not support suppressing communication (which is aimed primarily at stopping this very rise).
  - egeozcan 1y ago
    But this is not about suppressing all communication, this is ultimately about giving the ability to steer the conversation to avoid what people in power would find problematic.
- SebKba 1y ago
  It's the classical playbook. Capture the media, declare the opposition illegal, bye bye democracy. The public was sold this Nazi story about the AfD by the established powers to keep them down. Looking at what has been going on it's wild to me to call the AfD authoritarian compared the the Altparteien...
  - camillomiller 1y ago
    [flagged]
  - angry_octet 1y ago
    The AfD are ultra right and leading figures have openly admitted that they contemplate killing migrants, de-islamification of Europe by expelling all muslims, breaking the EU, etc. They also scatter their speech with fascist dog whistles, and even Nazi slogans from the man in charge, Björn Höcke [1]. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/29/the-trial-of-bjorn-hocke-the-real-boss-of-germany-far-right https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/29/the-tr...
slightwinder 1y ago
AFDs operation-mode is to be always against the government and most others, so usually they are always debating against it, just because.. And in their case its far more than the usual playing opposition, they often switch even on their own stances. Additionally, this is something that would be in their ideological background. I guess they just fear to become victims themselves.
- xt84 1y ago
  How can you write this when the other parties have a cordon sanitaire (Brandmauer)[0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cordon_sanitaire_(politics) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cordon_sanitaire_(politics)
  - slightwinder 1y ago
    How is that related? The other parties are not defining their opinions based on AFDs stance. Brandmauer only means they are not working with them, if it can be avoided, not they have to be different on everything. And most parties will have a different stance from the AFD naturally, simply by the fact that AFD are far right fascists.
bayindirh 1y ago
Conservatives sometimes have an interesting habit of using the freedoms to come into power and then take these freedoms away.
quotemstr 1y ago
Giving credit where it's due, even (or especially) to someone you find distasteful, is a mark of maturity and good character.

jagermo 1y ago

with their history of questionable chats and leaks i don't doubt it.

lukan 1y ago
But so far the only german politician convicted of posession of pedophile material comes from the SPD as far as I remember? (And the russia and china connections of the AfD should be a case for the secret services anyway. Unfortunately the former boss of one service is a fan of the party, so not sure if they are really looking now)