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US airlines are pushing to remove protections for passengers and add more fees
- duxup 1y agoOriginal title did not fit on HN so I had to edit it, origional: >American Joins Delta, Southwest, United and Other US Airlines Push to Strip Away Travelers’ Rights and Add More Fees by Rolling Back Key Protections in New Deregulation Move
- jt2190 1y ago[flagged]
- duxup 1y agoI do not know. If I knew ahead of time I wouldn't post.
- grafmax 1y agoDeregulation once again helping business at the expense of consumers.
- SoftTalker 1y agoLook at what flying cost before deregulation and then decide if you want to go back.
- grafmax 1y agoBecause hidden costs like ‘no refunds for cancellations’ is the same as transparent price competition - what the deregulation you’re referring to ushered in. Not all deregulation benefits the consumer.
- bunnyfoofoo 1y agoGet a 403 from EU. Is there a better source?
- unwind 1y agoData point: it worked for me, also in the EU.
- willvarfar 1y agoThese are the main points listed in the article: * Automatic Refunds for Cancellations: Airlines want to remove the requirement to provide automatic refunds when flights are cancelled or significantly altered. Passengers may instead receive only vouchers or no compensation at all, leaving them without recourse in the event of a major flight disruption. * Transparency of Fees: The airlines also aim to strip away rules that require them to disclose all fees (like baggage, seat assignments, and service charges) upfront. Instead of the clear, itemized pricing system that passengers currently rely on, airlines could hide fees until later in the booking process, making the true cost of a ticket much higher than expected. * Family Seating Guarantees: Under current regulations, airlines must ensure that families with young children are seated together without additional charges. This would no longer be guaranteed under the new proposal, meaning families could face extra costs just to sit next to one another. * Accessibility Protections for Disabled Passengers: The deregulation proposal also targets protections for disabled passengers, weakening their access to support and assistance during air travel. Nasty site full of a gazillion trackers etc.
- cft 1y agoI am in the EU and I get 200
- rancar2 1y ago“The U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT) encourages all airlines to guarantee that young children are seated adjacent to an accompanying adult without charging any additional fee.” https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/airline-family-seating-dashboard https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/airline-family-se... There is not coverage beyond one adult already in the US. With an additional adult and one child, the airlines already adds in fees. It’s also non-transparent when booking that they have made sure the easy path is the charged path, especially now that airlines make you pay to guarantee being seated together prior to flight checkin 24 hours in advance of takeoff.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- MangoToupe 1y agoInteresting. The deregulation of airlines is already a case study of how deregulation tends to reduce competition and hurt consumers. I suppose we’ve just given up on the concept of trying to do anything but nakedly extract profit at any cost. You’d think shareholders would be pro-competition in the end, though—I certainly would prefer that. Edit: I mean short-term profits. As a shareholder I would prefer long-term profits via competition and diversification.
- rjbwork 1y ago>You’d think shareholders would be pro-competition in the end, though—I certainly would prefer that. The end game of capitalism is monopoly. Why would shareholders want competition that prevents them from extracting maximum profit?
- panick21_ 1y agoWhat are you talking about overall, deregulation of routes has not been bad for consumers. The opposite actually.
- hedora 1y agoIt’s been a disaster. There are fewer routes, and flying is miserable, and getting worse every year. Crashes are way up this year. Airlines profits are basically zero per ticket. Adding $10 per trip would be some sort of fantasy land windfall for the shareholders. Deregulation badly broke this industry.
- pfdietz 1y agoSafety is massively improved since the days of regulation. Fares are way down in real terms. Flying might be miserable, but that's because people realize they'd rather pay less than pay more for luxuries they don't actually value very much. Your comments remind me of the arguments Ma Bell gave to justify their monopoly. Oh noez, quality will suffer if there's telecom competition. Well, people ended up being willing to make the tradeoff. You did score a hit with airline profits being low. The whole purpose of regulation was to artificially inflate prices to ensure profits for airlines.
- pluc 1y agoIn Canada, we've already learned to always fly a European airline when possible. We have some legal protections but Canadian airlines are happy to put people on a complaint waiting list instead of doing anything - it's pretty laughable. As of August, there's 85k complaints waiting. It's a 1.5-2 years wait. https://otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/air-travel-complaints-resolution-process https://otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/air-travel-complaints-resolution-p...
- bthrn 1y agoThere is a 90 day decision timeframe starting from the time of submitting a complaint. But note: > Due to a high volume of complaints, there will be a delay between when a complaint is submitted and waits in the queue and when the complaint process will start. wat
- FireBeyond 1y agoLike Amazon, "Two day shipping!"... "Two days from when we actually ship it, which might be today, but might be tomorrow, or in three days from now..."
- sib 1y agoSo... it's kinda like healthcare?
- doodaddy 1y ago> Instead of the clear, itemized pricing system that passengers currently rely on, airlines could hide fees until later in the booking process… They call what we have now “clear”? Where when looking at a page of flights I don’t know how much the multitude of economy/economy+/economy++/premium economy/business/business++ seats will cost until I click on each flight? Where every carrier offers slightly different variations of these seats such that I can’t cross-shop on Google Flights? Is that the clear and transparent system the airlines are complaining about?
- code_for_monkey 1y agoyeah, now imagine when its even worse
- Mistletoe 1y agoI’ve seen the movie Brazil and I wish more people had so they would have voted better.
- nyc_data_geek1 1y agoIs your form stamped? There's no stamp on it.
- thombat 1y agoThis is your receipt for your husband. And this is my receipt for your receipt.
- nyc_data_geek1 1y agoWe're all in this together, kid.
- smt88 1y agoI'm not sure why you think that would've helped. A lot of the people who won't shut up about 1984 and Ayn Rand still vote for the closest thing to monarchy they can find on their ballots.
- eadmund 1y ago> [Elimination of] Automatic Refunds for Cancellations Does this mean when the passenger cancels or when the airline cancels? If it’s when the passenger chooses to cancel, this seems fine and fair: he paid for a flight; he chose not to take it. If it’s the latter, then it seems very unfair. > Transparency of Fees This seems patently unfair. Folks should know what they’re going to be paying ahead of time. > Family Seating Guarantees On the one hand, this seems fair. If you want to sit together, pay for that privilege. It doesn’t make sense to tax every other passenger for it. OTOH, families are a net benefit to society, so maybe it’s right for everyone else to pitch in a bit. Also, nothing is worse than the folks who didn’t pay up ahead of time who bug one, ‘may we switch seats so we can sit together?’ So perhaps free family seating makes life easier for everyone. > [Elimination of] Accessibility Protections for Disabled Passengers I wonder what that actually means. It could be fair (for example, folks too large for one seat purchasing two) or unfair.
- cdrini 1y ago> [Elimination of] Automatic Refunds for Cancellations Airline cancellations. Seeing as they're talking about making a change, I assume it's airline cancellations, since no airline will currently refund you for a passenger cancellation.
- cyral 1y agoIf the flight is delayed by 3 hours, you will get a refund if you cancel. This is great if the delay is long and there is a flight on a competing airline that would let you get out sooner.
- tarentel 1y agoSome will, you just have to pay an extra fee when you buy the ticket. It is ridiculous.
- ghaff 1y agoIt will typically be in the form of a credit but United, for example, does allow cancellations (not sure how far in advance) for no charge.
- camillomiller 1y ago[flagged]
- throaway5445454 1y ago[flagged]
- jdiff 1y agoThe rest of the world's already discovered an easy out: negotiate by promising to do what you've already been doing for the past decade. As long as he hasn't been fed some idea to fixate on, he's an easy mark that can be placated by literally anything.
- throaway5445454 1y agoCanada just allowed the USA to have control over their nuclear plants and waste for 20 years. South Korea had to publicly come out and say they wanted to accept Trump's deal, but it had to have some concessions or else they would go into economic collapse! And the EU just allowed something like 30% more access from USA food which was previously considered not fit for human consumption under their health laws right? Please correct my figures if they're wrong.
- warkdarrior 1y agoI found your comment insightful and informative, until I saw this: > Please correct my figures if they're wrong. I guess the numbers could be wrong, and the comment completely unreliable.
- throaway5445454 1y agoWell if you have knowledge that proves my comment wrong, please present it.
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- hiphipjorge 1y agoI honestly think it's pretty amazing how cheap air travel already is in the USA and Europe. It explains why we're seeing all time highs for air travel. The air industry seems like a good example of just the right level of regulation: There's tons of competition, different pricing tiers with their corresponding levels of quality, and a lot of dynamism combined with a good set of consumer base regulations (24 hour cancellation period, for example).
- handwarmers 1y agoThis might be the case if all your travel boils down to off season direct flights between major airports. In my experience, it has been rapidly going up in price and down in quality since the end of the pandemic. You have very few protections as a passenger, and while you may have some rights on paper, they have been made excruciatingly difficult to pursue with the way support lines work with airlines. To add insult to the injury, look up the history of bailouts airlines have received.
- ragazzina 1y ago> while you may have some rights on paper, they have been made excruciatingly difficult to pursue Are you in the US? In the EU there are many websites that help you get a cancellation/delay refund, they require little more than your boarding pass, and they work very well for a small (sometimes none) fee. The fee is taken from your refund so if you don't get one, you don't have to pay anything.
- vonneumannstan 1y ago[flagged]
- panick21_ 1y agoIronically in Europe we have some decent regulation for airlines, but the public train operating companies refuse to do the same for trains. We need to have some of those same protection and transparency requirements for train companies as well. But the governments of the big operating companies have vetoed this so far. Sometimes deregulation actually makes it easier to implement regulation.
- hannasanarion 1y agoTrain operators aren't as strictly regulated because they can't do as much harm, both in terms of the inherent catastraophic consequences of air travel disasters for passengers and bystanders, and in terms of the financial risk that passengers take on by purchasing a ticket. A no-refunds-for-cancellations policy on a $100 intercity train ticket that rarely ever cancels hits different from a $400 flight itinerary that cancels multiple times a week because of normal weather.
- jen20 1y agoHave you compared the cost of a train to a flight in Europe? Often the flight is _substantially_ cheaper, especially in the UK.
- panick21_ 1y agoI don't think that's true. If you book a connection that involves multiple high speed trains across multiple country you can easily pay 1000s of $. Its actually more then many direct flights in Europe. And for example if you take TGV from Paris to the German border, and you have to get on an ICE. If the TGV is late, you miss the connection to the ICE, and have to sleep in the border town, TGV doesn't have to pay. And missing connection is quite common, specially because Germany is ... not very German. In terms of safety, a train accident can kill 100s of people. They just don't happen very often.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
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- whatsupdog 1y ago[flagged]
- philipwhiuk 1y agoIs that your personal blog? Bit crass. I was expecting an actual industry source rather than a screed.
- whatsupdog 1y agoNo... I just came across it and it seems heavily researched. You can just google "obama air traffic controllers test", there are other sources as well.
- hedora 1y agoThe downtick in air traffic control safety started post covid (labor shortage due to layoffs in 2020), and accelerated in 2025 (labor shortage due to layoffs and funding cuts because DOGE or something).
- whatsupdog 1y agoThat's not true. In 2013, the FAA sought to diversify the air traffic controller workforce by introducing a biographical questionnaire, which replaced the proven AT-SAT test and deprioritized job-relevant skills in favor of arbitrary factors like LOW grades in science or history. This abrupt change ostracized graduates of the FAA-endorsed CTI programs, which had successfully cultivated highly qualified candidates for years. The process was further marred by reports of corruption, including an FAA official coaching select candidates on how to cheat the questionnaire, undermining fairness and trust in the system. These actions disrupted the training pipeline, reduced applicant quality, and caused lasting staffing shortages and safety concerns in aviation.
- dboreham 1y agoQuick note (after doing some digging) that this is close to disinformation. The 2013 change cited above was rolled back in 2016 per: https://www.congress.gov/114/plaws/publ190/PLAW-114publ190.pdf https://www.congress.gov/114/plaws/publ190/PLAW-114publ190.p...
- charrondev 1y agoIs it just me or is this an awful “article”? It mention deregulation but doesn’t point to what specific regulations have been removed. I took a Delta flight 2 weeks ago (one that supposedly had implemented all of these draconian rollbacks) and had the same experience I’ve had for the past 10 years: - price of the ticket was as advertised - a checked bag was an option at the same price it has always been. - I was able to assign a seat next to my husband without additional fees. Now while this flight was not cancelled, I’ve had to reschedule some flights with Delta due to illness previously and they just gave me a 100% credit for the cost of the flight that was easy to use. The only contrast for cancellation I know is the nightmare of Air Canada. In the past I’ve had flights get cancelled and only got “vouchers” that could only be used by calling a specific number that took 1 hour+ and were not applicable for taxes (you know half the cost of a Canadian Airline Ticket), and would be lost of not fully used in one purchases
- whatsupdog 1y agoAir Canada vouchers also expire in one year. I had the misfortune of having a flight cancelled at the beginning of COVID. They never refunded me, because apparently you had to go fill a form to apply for a refund within a few days of cancellation. Air Canada is the worst.
- bsimpson 1y agoI'd be curious to see how the all-in price of airline tickets has evolved in recent decades. It feels like it's now commonplace to have hundreds of dollars in additional fees for things like legroom. That means a cheap ticket is a midrange ticket and a midrange ticket can end up being quite expensive unless you fall for the "we get to strap you behind the bathroom with only the clothes on your back" Saver ticket. It also means that you're often still out actual money if you use award miles.
- izacus 1y agoHundreds of dollars for legroom? Are you... sure? For what kind of flights?
- ghaff 1y agoI'm most familiar with United. Economy Plus (which is mostly about a bit more legroom) does have a modest premium absent sufficient status that gets you it for free. But Premium Economy that gives you somewhat wider seats as well as legroom gets into the hundreds of dollars. International business has lots of benefits including legroom and lie flat seating but that usually gets into the thousands.
- makeitdouble 1y agoNothing should be allowed to be called "Premium Economy"
- ghaff 1y agoEh, they already had economy plus. Premium economy is basically traditional domestic business class on widebody international flights that have lie-flat business (Polaris) seating as well. Honestly, putting it in the economy bucket in contrast to Polaris seems pretty honest in the scheme of things.
- whatshisface 1y agoPremium doesn't have to mean "elite," it might also refer to a risk premium or any situation where a buyer has to pay extra. ;)
- philjackson 1y agoTrump really has enabled grifting en mass. Any semblance of corporate responsibility out of the window.
- tehjoker 1y agoDon't forget that it was Delta airlines that lobbied the Biden administration that got CDC to reduce isolation duration. Both administrations are deadly liars. When it comes to the airlines, the last administration's deregulation killed people, a lot of them. Not that if Trump was in power he would have done anything different.
- clcaev 1y agoAs more legislators (and supreme court judges) use their donors' private airplanes, how much will they think about the typical flight experience?
- WaitWaitWha 1y agoI echo what some already stated. I think this topic if real needs to be known. Problem is that I cannot find any reference where this information is coming from. Give me a link, document, reference, or something to back up the claims. Otherwise it comes across as FUD.
- egonschiele 1y ago> Family Seating Guarantees: Under current regulations, airlines must ensure that families with young children are seated together without additional charges. This would no longer be guaranteed under the new proposal, meaning families could face extra costs just to sit next to one another. This one is wild. You want to sit next to somebody's crying 2 year old? Go nuts. Change their diaper while you're at it.
- AtlanticThird 1y agoI don't think that's what anyone wants. I think they just want families with young children to pay to sit together, like everyone else has to
- rimunroe 1y agoFlying with babies (and other young children) presents challenges which "everyone else" doesn't have to deal with. Babies and children need much more attention. Babies are much more likely to throw tantrums, to feel pain from pressure changes, to be sick, etc. They often need a LOT of soothing. Many also need to be breast fed (some babies don't take bottles), which depending on the baby's length and the side they're nursing on may involve their legs sticking into the aisle or their neighbor's space. They also like to fling solid foods, spit up or vomit with no warning, and are generally fantastic at making messes. My spouse and I just finished our first two flights with our 11 month old this weekend which were about 3.5 and 4 hours apiece. Even with an extra seat reserved for them and an overall extremely well tempered baby, I cannot imagine how much harder the flight would have been if the gate agent hadn't been able to rearrange our seats so all three of us were sitting together. If that hadn't been guaranteed, we would have had to ask one of the neighbors to swap seats with us. They'd have been highly motivated to do so, but it wouldn't have been a sure thing. They may have their own needs. Impromptu swaps during boarding seems not great for making the process go smoothly. Having to get an extra seat to fit a car seat for an infant isn't required, but flying with the infant in a car seat is strongly recommended by the American Academy of Pediatrics. Having somewhere to put the baby or their various toys/bottles temporarily helps a whole lot over a four hour flight. This already added $500 onto the price of our trip. The cost of raising children is already very high in the US, so it will really suck if flying becomes yet more expensive and stressful. In my opinion, this (and many others) are a cost which we should spread out if we actually want people to have kids.
- LightBug1 1y agoOne of my biggest regrets is not travelling the length and breadth of the US two decades ago when I had an opportunity. What with orange two-chins in charge, MAGA, ICE, deregulation across the board, and the general shit-housery that seems to be going on over there, I'm not sure I'll ever be able to attempt it again in my lifetime ... it's not the actual travel that is the issue, it would be the non-stop gag-reflex on landing ... RIP USA ...
- bikemike026 1y agoA large chunk of the population voted for this. Good going losers.
- cats_4_freedom 1y ago[flagged]
- clarkmoody 1y agoI would pay more for an announcement-free flight. I watch the safety briefing ahead of time, and nobody speaks over the insanely-loud PA system the entire time I'm on the airplane.
- lunias 1y agoFlying has become such a terrible experience that I avoid it all costs. I'd love to take more trips, but the service is so poor that I can't justify supporting it more than absolutely necessary. I doubt anything will change though, the majority of other people seem to not really care.
- ghaff 1y agoEither it's a business necessity or it's a "tax" on recreational vacations once or twice a year. In semi-retirement I've told many people my goal is to keep traveling but arrange things so I spend less time in airports and planes. Of course, I can spend more money to make longer flights less onerous.
- xoxxala 1y agoI'm with you. If I can't drive there, I don't go. Between the TSA, cramped seats, fees, unhelpful staff, angry passengers, angry staff, turbulence, the lousy food and dealing with carry-ons/luggage -- it's not worth it (for me, personally). My last flight was 2019 and I don't miss it at all. We take fewer, but longer, vacations, and use the extra time to drive to our destination. We try to avoid freeways as much as possible so we can see smaller places. We make vague plans and stop when we get tired or hungry. I know it won't work for everybody, but it works for us and I love it.
- asdff 1y agoAs annoying as it is to be nickel and dimed I really can't complain when thinking about what is actually on offer. If I told my ancestors I was unhappy about traveling 2000 miles in 5 hours for $250 they'd rightfully slap me over the head. What a historically unprecedented capability for our species to end up on the opposite side of the planet in about a half a day.
- octo888 1y ago> What a historically unprecedented capability for our species to end up on the opposite side of the planet in about a half a day. For a mere 40 hours of unskilled labour! Compared to months to years of labour, travelling on ships, 1-3 centuries ago
- bilekas 1y agoThese two in particular : > Automatic Refunds for Cancellations > Transparency of Fees How does a lawmaker justify this being in the publics interest ? I'm not even joking, I know "well lobbyist going to lobby", but this is a legitimate question. How does a regulatory body say "Yup, that's okay with us to remove" ?
- mushroomba 1y ago[flagged]
- bilekas 1y ago> First, realize that there is no such thing as the 'public interest'. The public is composed of different subdivisions of people, from everyone everywhere down to the individual. I don't buy that at all, that's what regulations are for. There is no public interest in still having lead in our fuel [0], or arsenic in green wall paint [1]. To say regulations are not for public interest is to say why have any oversight of anything. Should we say "well fuel companies can make fuel cheaper with lead so lets just remove those regulations. [0] https://www.unep.org/news-and-stories/story/inside-20-year-campaign-rid-world-leaded-fuel https://www.unep.org/news-and-stories/story/inside-20-year-c... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_green#:~:text=Because%20of%20its%20arsenic%20content,react%20with%20other%20manufactured%20paints. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_green#:~:text=Because%20...
- mushroomba 1y ago[flagged]
- lxgr 1y agoPlaying devil's advocate for a moment: I could imagine airlines wanting to not allow for a full refund if passengers can be booked on a "reasonably similar" connection. (I've done this myself in the past, as far as I remember; changes of a few minutes in either direction often make an entire booking refundable.) The problem here of course would be the definition of "reasonably similar". Arriving a few hours later can be entirely fine or completely ruin a trip, depending on the circumstances.
- geff82 1y agoBook trips from European websites in the future. Prices here need to include everything upfront. Which might lead to situations where you reserve a hotel room in the USA for 1500, but then only pay 1200 at checkout because the remaining 300 are the "resort fee" that will be paid at the hotel. Or take car rental: the cheaper, more complete packages for the USA are often booked in the EU at at better price.
- lxgr 1y ago+1 for hotels, but I'd be careful with car rentals. Often, these bookings are tied to the country of residence of the driver, which could at least theoretically have insurance implications.
- octo888 1y ago> Prices here need to include everything upfront How are you defining "everything" and "upfront"? Upfront as in the first page shown after searching? Because many, many airlines/car rental sites have a complex muti-step process of different fares, extras etc until you get to the final stage
- hn8726 1y agoCan you give an example? I just checked a random rental website for France and I got a very clear `From $xx` price and I could — in one step — go to checkout with that exact price by simply not selecting any other options. Sure you will have upsells but if a price for a service is presented, that should be a final price. You can't tack on "resort fees", the price presented must be inclusive of all the required charges. For example as much as I dislike Booking.com, the price they show for a room includes everything — tax, mandatory cleaning fee and city tax if applicable.
- terminalshort 1y agoBut it works that way too when I book in the US.
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- alberth 1y agoI'm surprised the world isn't moving more towards "Nutrition" labels for pricing.
- Beestie 1y agoTLDR version: The Airlines are turning into TicketMaster.
- hahajk 1y agoMan, I hate headlines like this. It may be true that what they're doing is evil but I feel like I'm not allowed to have my own opinion.
- Zak 1y agoI've had four overnight delays on three transatlantic trips this year. Fortunately, EU passenger compensation rules applied to three of them; the airline must pay each delayed passenger 600€ or convince them to take a more compelling non-cash offer. I'm not for heavily regulating non-safety details of how most industries do business, but I do think it's fair to demand the true price up front and compensation when the airline doesn't provide the service it sold for reasons within its control.
- tialaramex 1y agoRight, I've had train companies put me in a taxi, and just eat the price of a taxi to wherever because if you want to sell tickets to travel to X, and then oops you can't get me to X well, I didn't buy your "regret" that you can't do that - I bought travel to X, so if that's still possible you'd better make it happen and too bad if that's not profitable.
- Yeul 1y agoI got an email from the train company that according to their records I had a delay and they put a link in it to a online form to get my money back. I was positively surprised at their proactive communication. The money was on my account within the week!
- jakub_g 1y agoIn Italy, for regional trains, since 2025 Trenitalia gives the reimboursement automatically to your credit card if you purchased the ticket electronically. [1] [1] https://www.firstonline.info/en/trenitalia-rimborsi-automatici-dal-2025-indennizzi-diretti-sulla-carta-per-i-ritardi/ https://www.firstonline.info/en/trenitalia-rimborsi-automati...
- decafninja 1y agoGood news I guess? I was in this situation in 2024 and asked a fellow traveler who was Italian what recourse we had. He laughed and replied “none, we’re fucked”.
- JustExAWS 1y agoI fly a lot and let me put in context one of the “protections” as far as parents being seated with children or at least how it works on Delta. If you buy their lowest fare - which they try their best to steer you away from and they say prominently in big bold type avive where you order your ticket that you will not be able to choose your seat - you cannot in fact choose your seat. Then parents complain and people who did pay to choose their seat are forced to move so kids can sit with their parents. The rest of the items that the airline wants to roll back are foot guns for infrequent travelers.
- kumarsw 1y agoI was hoping that the pendulum would swing the other way with the scandal over too many passengers bringing out their bags on a recent AA evacuation caused by a burning tire. The push to eliminate checked bags has created a chaotic cabin environment that probably exacerbated the situation. There's no sign of it getting better either. The overcrowding of overhead bins creates a prisoners dilemma where flight attendants pressure passengers to put smaller bags under their seats, disincentivizing bringing anything but a big roller bag. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8l2n-di3hJE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8l2n-di3hJE
- ghaff 1y agoAs someone who has traveled for a long time, I find two things to be true: 1. People like business travelers or those with even minimal levels of status/benefits (who don't pay for checked luggage) don't usually preferentially check bags because luggage gets delayed, it's harder to switch flights when there's a weather etc. problem, and they have to wait at the luggage carousel. 2. Hard and hard-ish roll-aboards are a menace. Especially in a world of generally more casual dress, soft-side luggage would make overheads a lot more manageable--understanding that some people really can't use shoulder bags or backpacks.
- raw_anon_1111 1y agoMy wife and I are both Delta Platinum and it’s half and half. Since we always get upgraded to C+ with dedicated overhead and we board early, for non stop flights, we won’t check our bags for short getaways. We hate lugging luggage around the airport for layovers and now that we don’t live in ATL any more, we almost always have layovers.
- terminalshort 1y agoFor me it's not having to wait at the carousel at the end, it's having to wait in that enormous line at the beginning. I really don't understand why they make it so much work just to drop off your checked bag before the flight.
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- o_1 1y agoThe airlines and the FAA have been reducing seat size and weight for "safety reasons". 21" width minimum required in 1995 only 18" width in 2025. These seat requirements directly corrolate to fuel cost savings, and passenger density. Simple statistical manipulation with the increase in passengers shrinks the fatality and accident rate because the sample is larger. The airlines are to the FAA as what wall street is to the SEC.
- swasheck 1y agoi’m hard-pressed to think of an industry whose financial principles i’m more skeptical of than the airline industry. post-9/11 the industry cratered and they said they needed to add fees to keep from going bankrupt. united created ted, their own low-cost no-frills carrier which was actually decent. once air travel recovered, they (airlines, in general) kept the fees and have been turning record profits ever since. united dumped ted so that they could return to focus on squeezing customers there. i love travel but i hate dealing with airlines. their executives rank up there with health insurance as some of my least favorite personalities. and one last thing, other than (eventually) telecom way back in the 80s, has there ever been an industry whose deregulation has been a net win for consumers? i’m genuinely curious and not asking sarcastically
- chrisbolt 1y agoLooking at the numbers, for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines#Business_trends https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines#Business_trend... United had their highest revenue in 2024, and their profit margin was... 5.5%. Would reducing your ticket price by 5.5% make any difference?
- lurking_swe 1y agoalso, don’t forget (well known fact) that passengers paying for premium economy and business class seats are the most profitable for the airlines - by far. Aside from profits from credit card rewards programs. so the profit margin on economy tickets is likely even smaller than 5.5%!
- Yeul 1y agoI have no doubt that if they could fill the plane with 200 business class travelers they would. But that group simply isn't big enough outside of routes to New York or Shanghai. The 747 became the queen of the skies because it carried 400 tourists to Málaga, Okinawa and Ft Lauderdale.
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- DrNosferatu 1y agoPleasant prospect indeed!
- bradley13 1y agoI agree that transparency is important. All charges known up front. That said, I think a fundamental problem is that sir travel is too cheap. That's the motivation behind all the nutty fees. Surely there would be a market for an airline (or a class of seating) where you get a decent seat, with no gimmicks and up-charges? And not for triple the price like business class?
- ahmeneeroe-v2 1y agoIsn't this just regular seating (of any class) on one of the non-discount airlines? I fly a couple times a month with Alaska or Delta, economy tickets only, and this is always my experience. No weird fees, price known up front, the seat is fine, etc.
- havaloc 1y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midwest_Airlines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midwest_Airlines "For many years, all flights featured 2-by-2 leather seating (in aircraft usually fitted with 3-2 seating), ample legroom, complimentary gourmet meals, and warm chocolate chip cookies. This made the airline popular with business travelers. In addition, Midwest Express operated a sizable executive charter operation with a specially configured DC-9."
- dangus 1y agoI think the airlines don’t realize that all the rules in place now make flying more tolerable and even enjoyable. If the airlines jerk me around I’m more likely to just not buy a ticket and stay home. If they make it a great experience it’s something I’m going to look forward to.
- Lio 1y ago> Airlines want to remove the requirement to provide automatic refunds when flights are cancelled or significantly altered. This is wild. Are they really asking to be able to take money for a flight, then cacel it and keep the money? That's crazy.
- toomuchtodo 1y agoThe purpose is economic extraction of the customer base. They really are asking, because they can, and that aligns with this administration's low regulation and anti consumer stance. Edit: Comment of comment value removed. Updated to increase value. Thanks indoordin0saur, I am occasionally in the wrong gear until the psychotropics kick in.
- indoordin0saur 1y agoIf you know it's a low value post then don't post it.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- wahnfrieden 1y agoWhy not celebrate the acceleration achieved by deregulation instead?
- realusername 1y agoI mean, why even bother to run flights at all in this scenario? They could cancel 80% of flights and keep the rest to pretend they are still an airline. Cancelations would be more profitable than the flights themselves.
- delfinom 1y agoI imagine the class action lawsuits at that point would bankrupt them
- gr1zzlybe4r 1y agoThe airline industry is a good example of an "open" market that is really anything but. It is effectively an state-supported oligopoly. Airlines have split up every major market, usually with very little competition amongst themselves, and then have a government bailout backstop if things go wrong (this include things like favorable bankruptcy laws that let them get out of wage commitments). This is without even getting into the unholy public-private airport situation. The answer is actual competition with some reasonable passenger protections. Let foreign carriers compete here (9th freedom rights). No bailouts for failed operations or even unusual circumstances like covid.
- nerdponx 1y agoThe bailouts for unusual circumstances are a really interesting case. The "unusual circumstances" tend to be perfect for industry consolidation, which is normally (and rightly) viewed with at least some skepticism, but tends to get a pass during unusual circumstances as a matter of survival. In no small part this is driven by the desire not to cause thousands of people to be laid off with no equivalent pay opportunities in sight. The PPP program turned out to be a widely abused transfer of wealth from taxpayers to capitalists, yes. But I actually think in general that bailouts, especially for smaller industry players, are an important tool for preventing industry consolidation, which causes generational-scale harm that is difficult to reverse or even remediate. I think what need to happen is that it should be much easier to pierce the corporate veil in cases of obvious negligence in planning that leads to being unprepared for a predictable event. And of course putting an end to PE-style "corporate raiding" behavior that really just amounts to embezzlement. Imagine an economy in which the owners, directors, and chief executives of corporation are, as individuals, required to uphold some level of fiduciary duty to their customers. The economy might look very different in that case.
- intalentive 1y ago>The answer is actual competition It's hard to see how that can happen when politicians take money from the rent-seekers who benefit from the status quo. "Competition is for losers", says Peter Thiel, so buy yourself a state-sanctioned monopoly (like Palantir).
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- hamonrye 1y agothe pink elephant is whether a triple-bogey on a par-five hole acctounts for the disappearance of the airport terminus pass.
- onlypassingthru 1y agoIt seems like the smart play here is a three step process: 1) Deregulate claiming that competition will lower costs 2) Further consolidate carriers so that there is even less competition 3) Profit! With the corporate buyout of government, it won't be long until we see the announcement for the new AmDelTed.
- terminalshort 1y agoThis has worked so far, though. Prices are down ~50% after inflation since the airlines were deregulated.
- cosmicgadget 1y agoThere might be other factors to consider, such as seat density and maintenance costs. Plus that deregulation was a massive change compared to whether or not they can use the AirBnB price quote model.
- onlypassingthru 1y agoThe cost savings has also come from efficiency gains like winglets & jet bridges, and service reductions like going from meal service to snacks to nothing, the removal of amenities (remember playing cards and wing pins for kids?), little or no in-flight entertainment, etc.
- mrguyorama 1y agoNo, service is down 50% after inflation. Regulated tickets included things like sufficient leg room and snacks and luggage. Now all that costs extra.
- octo888 1y ago> Prices are down ~50% after inflation since the airlines were deregulated On a like-for-like basis? Seat pitch, seat comfort, customer service, meals, drinks, included baggage, ticket flexibility/conditions etc? EDIT: found some example historical fares from Flyertalk: 1. A 1972 BA flight to JFK in economy. I imagine economy in 1972 was more like Premium Economy today. It was ~£80 then (£944 in 2025), whereas a Premium Economy ticket sells for more like ~£800 today, which is cheaper (but still not 100% like-for-like if you consider BA is a very different company now). Also that's an extremely competitive route and an unusually cheap PE fare. A less competitive route, LHR-SFO, you're looking at £1,700-£3,000 for PE ! 2. BA, LHR-BRU, economy, non-refundable fare, £40 in 1976, which is £268 now. I'd wager BA european business class is similar to economy back then, and that usually sells for £200-400 on that route (~£600 last minute...), so taking an average, we're not close to it being 50% cheaper
- jmull 1y agoMaking flying even crappier doesn't seem like a good idea to me. Regulations that put a floor on how crappy airlines can be should be pretty neutral on competition since all the airlines would have the same rules. That's not to say all rules are a good idea, even rules that raise quality -- raising the floor raises prices, and if the floor is raised higher than necessary, prices are higher than necessary too, making flying less affordable. Set the floor too low and people fly less because it's too crappy. Set the floor too high and people fly less because it's too expensive. You're looking for the balance point. IMO, the floor is too low right now. I think it's a mistake to try to lower it.
- cosmicgadget 1y agoThat is the beauty of the floor, everyone stands on it so it becomes acceptable even if it shouldn't be. Deregulation and disassembly of consumer protections is what Americans voted for.
- pavel_lishin 1y ago> Making flying even crappier doesn't seem like a good idea to me. Ah, but do you own an airline?
- Ajedi32 1y ago> Set the floor too low and people fly less because it's too crappy. Seems like a great opportunity for an airline to be less crappy and make a lot of money selling tickets to all those people who are "flying less" on other airlines, no? So the question then becomes why hasn't someone done that already, if the floor really is "too low"?
- smcg 1y agoHigh barrier to entry, consolidation, and collusion. Look at how many airline mergers have happened over the past decades.
- sershe 1y agoThat wouldn't explain why the reverse happened. Everyone introduced the crappier economy tier; even the airlines initially saying they wouldn't eventually caved and now there's a crappy economy tier default. Moreover, gradually these crappy tiers converged, including some (united iirc) getting slightly less crappy following user demand. Most people want cheaper tickets and don't shop on quality. In the rare cases that they do airlines readily adjust. But the airlines trying to offer quality as the default would go out of business
- penguin_booze 1y agoLet what happens in America, stay in America. All of it.
- altspace 1y agoOpportunity for AI agents to deep dive into all the options and provide user friendly view?
- exabrial 1y ago> Under current regulations, airlines must ensure that families with young children are seated together without additional charges. I'm against rolling back all of the other ones mentioned, but this one, I don't have a problem with charging a fee to be seated together. Most airlines let you pay to pick seats anyway.
- OhMeadhbh 1y agoThis is part of the reason I don't fly so much anymore. In the last 10 flights I flew, only 2 arrived on time. For one flight I was delayed in D/FW for 72 hours. I haven't had a flight on United that wasn't canceled or rescheduled or I was bumped in about 10 years. And the behaviour of the airlines has been getting MUCH worse over time. The Alaska flight from DFW to SEA that was delayed 72 hours... They originally weren't going to refund me for canceling it. I had to get a lawyer involved. I should not have to get a lawyer and a local TV news crew involved to reschedule a canceled flight. I drive a lot more these days and if Amtrak was better I would take the train more often. I get to catch up on podcasts while driving and usually do it over the weekend so I can stop and see out-of-the-way roadside attractions. Before driving I-80 between Reno and Salt Lake, I never realized how empty some sections of the country are. I'd be curious to hear if this is happening in Europe or Asia.
- jermaustin1 1y agoI flew a LOT pre-covid, and still more than average post-covid (2-4 times a year), and primarily via United (thanks to racked-up miles from the Continental days) out of Houston/NYC/London, and I have never had any issues with delays or cancellations - In 2009, a Continental flight did have me circling IAH for 2 hours while they troubleshot a landing gear malfunction before landing again and switching planes, though, but that is the only issue I remember, and I was flying 2-5 flights/week at that point between HOU/NYC/LAX/DEN. The handful of times I've flown Southwest have been slightly less than perfect, but some of that was user error not understanding how Southwest worked compared to normal carriers. I don't want to discount yours, or the thousands upon thousands of reports about United or Southwest, but in my experience, it has been pretty solid on both counts.
- OhMeadhbh 1y agoI'm flying out of the west and have to go through SLC or DEN when flying United. It's ALWAYS a PITA. Now that I think about it... I had a segment a couple years ago on United from JAX to ORD that was delayed only 5 minutes and wound up arriving 5 minutes early, so maybe east of the Rockies things are better. And my brother tells me international flights on Untied through SFO to Asia are generally pretty stable. I bet if I looked at where flights originated, United is doing a East to West pattern and there are just fewer opportunities for cascading delays to impact people getting on the plane in the east. Comparing with Alaska, which has other problems, but hasn't canceled too many flights on me, I bet most of the flights I take originate out of SEA going south or east, so you don't have that same pattern. Also... Southwest... I remember when it was a good airline. Just another example of what hedge funds can do to you. FWIW, they have a train at DFW now that will take you to either downtown Ft. Worth or downtown Dallas (or even Las Colinas. Or DENTON. I took a train from DFW to "downtown" DENTON once!!! The wonders never cease.) I would love to see LUV field step up it's mass trans game.
- hereme888 1y agoThe entire industry generates money by means of dark patterns. Per my interactions with people, almost 100% of consumers are constantly pissed off at the unending deception. Given this is their modus operandi, I don't trust a word the industry tells me. I'm in favor of stronger regulation, actually.
- JKCalhoun 1y agoHigh speed rail can't come soon enough.
- throwmeaway222 1y agoI haven't flown anywhere since 2013ish, maybe more people should stop supporting it. Convert airports into space for housing.
- darkamaul 1y agoWhile US airlines are lobbying to roll back passenger protections and add fees, the EU is moving the opposite way - now pushing rules to standardize free carry-on and checked baggage sizes across all airlines[0] [0] https://www.bbc.com/travel/article/20250627-the-big-change-affecting-european-travel https://www.bbc.com/travel/article/20250627-the-big-change-a...
- nitwit005 1y agoThe fees will only bring in extra revenue if they're a surprise, or some sort of impulse buy. I'm not sure that'll keep happening. We're already at the point where people don't trust the listed price of flights and hotel bookings (Vegas has made hotel resort fees globally famous). It just seems the long term result is everyone will use some app to calculate the real cost of their trip, and what those apps display will be the real list price.
- imchillyb 1y agoUS airlines discovered, during and after covid, that shipping prices were astronomical for some materials and some destinations. The airlines began taking on more packages, and less people. Now the airlines are allowing passengers to compete with these new package-pound-per-dollar rates. It's not unexpected. Now the safety measures are getting in the way of the package-pound-per-dollar and the airlines are seeking a way to scurry out from under these safety measures. This is undesirable behavior, but how can a meat-package compete with a rare-metals, rare-earths, or even small aluminum shipment? The cost of shipping goods has risen astronomically since covid. Meat-packages now must compete. We're losing the competition.
- fuckinpuppers 1y agoJust a few short months ago we had an administration that pushed and got some fair rules created. It is crazy to me that people can’t see how transparently anti-consumer the current administration is.
- jaybrendansmith 1y agoEurope is looking better and better every day.
- gitpusher 1y agoI don't know much about running an airline. But whenever an industry lobbies to de-regulate itself, you know it will be bad for consumers.