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That was my first interpretation, and I was very surprised and kind of afraid. Glad to know they aren't trying for autonomous flight yet.

amelius 1y ago
"Autopilot" already exists when it comes to flying.
- bdcravens 1y ago
  Sure but it's not autonomous in the sense of Waymo (ie, driverless)
  - ckastner 1y ago
    Landing can be: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoland https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoland In fact, it's pretty routine. Don't have the source at hand, but somewhere around 1% of all landings (at airports with ILS) are autolands. I think it was Boeing that even requires at least 1 autoland per plane every 30 days or so. You can find videos of this on YouTube. Completely hands-off.
    - amelius 1y ago
      I'm curious, what is harder to implement: autoland for airplanes, or autoland for rockets (spaceX)?
      - ckastner 1y ago
        I don't know if these are comparable. But two interesting data points from the Wikipedia article I linked are that the first aircraft certification for ILS Cat III was in 1968, and Cat IIIB in 1975. And IIRC by the 1980s, autoland was already a pretty common feature.
    - themafia 1y ago
      Most carriers have a rule that on clear days you always hand fly the landing. This is a competence you do not want to lose. It's also the case that you can have a whole approach setup in your flight computer and at the last minute the controller gives you a runway change. You could drop your head down and start typing a bunch info the FMC but you're generally better off just disabling auto pilot and manually making the adjustment.
- seanmcdirmid 1y ago
  Yes, but autopilot usually just keeps the plane flying in a straight line at some specified altitude, which have been around since 1912. It isn't full self-flying (although we definitely have drones that can fly themselves already, so that tech already exists).
  - dawnerd 1y ago
    That's an oversimplification of autopilot systems. They can follow flight routes, avoid traffic (TCAS), even auto land to name a few.
    - seanmcdirmid 1y ago
      Auto-landers are not simply classified with autopilots. An autoland system is an advanced function that is part of a modern aircraft's overall autopilot capabilities. A basic autopilot can control an aircraft's attitude and heading, but an autoland system can automatically execute the full landing procedure.
- danielvaughn 1y ago
  Yes but it should have been obvious that in the context of Waymo + SFO, the implication was autonomous flying of commercial airlines.
bdcravens 1y ago
I have zero expertise for my claim, but I feel like autonomous flight is easier than autonomous driving.
- snickerdoodle14 1y ago
  I also feel like the demand is way, way lower. A pilot can't be that large a % of the cost of a flight. Maybe if we lived in the jetsons era.
  - rkomorn 1y ago
    Depends on the size of the plane, really. One of the reasons a few companies were investing in fully autonomous air taxis is because the math on a small piloted aircraft wasn't realistic for a low enough price point to be competitive.
  - seanmcdirmid 1y ago
    The problem is actually safety. As automated systems get better, the pilot is left with not much to do, and has to maintain vigilance while being really really bored. It is almost better to have fewer automated systems and give the pilot more things to do during the flight so it is easier to keep them paying attention, or all automated with no human pilot to mess things up.
- 0_____0 1y ago
  In the abstract yes but in practice the economic (ratio of cost of pilot to pax miles) and safety context of aviation mean fully autonomous flying has to be extremely robust before it has actual utility in industry.
  - rkomorn 1y ago
    In practice, you're also currently very reliant on infrastructure that is definitely not as solid as you want (eg: ILS and GPS can be interfered with quite nastily). ILS being under maintenance and unavailable for certain runways is also far from unusual.
deleted 1y ago
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Fomite 1y ago
Mine as well, and I was crossing SFO off the list of airports I'd connect through.
onetokeoverthe 1y ago
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amelius 1y ago

"Autopilot" already exists when it comes to flying.

bdcravens 1y ago
Sure but it's not autonomous in the sense of Waymo (ie, driverless)
- ckastner 1y ago
  Landing can be: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoland https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoland In fact, it's pretty routine. Don't have the source at hand, but somewhere around 1% of all landings (at airports with ILS) are autolands. I think it was Boeing that even requires at least 1 autoland per plane every 30 days or so. You can find videos of this on YouTube. Completely hands-off.
  - amelius 1y ago
    I'm curious, what is harder to implement: autoland for airplanes, or autoland for rockets (spaceX)?
    - ckastner 1y ago
      I don't know if these are comparable. But two interesting data points from the Wikipedia article I linked are that the first aircraft certification for ILS Cat III was in 1968, and Cat IIIB in 1975. And IIRC by the 1980s, autoland was already a pretty common feature.
  - themafia 1y ago
    Most carriers have a rule that on clear days you always hand fly the landing. This is a competence you do not want to lose. It's also the case that you can have a whole approach setup in your flight computer and at the last minute the controller gives you a runway change. You could drop your head down and start typing a bunch info the FMC but you're generally better off just disabling auto pilot and manually making the adjustment.
seanmcdirmid 1y ago
Yes, but autopilot usually just keeps the plane flying in a straight line at some specified altitude, which have been around since 1912. It isn't full self-flying (although we definitely have drones that can fly themselves already, so that tech already exists).
- dawnerd 1y ago
  That's an oversimplification of autopilot systems. They can follow flight routes, avoid traffic (TCAS), even auto land to name a few.
  - seanmcdirmid 1y ago
    Auto-landers are not simply classified with autopilots. An autoland system is an advanced function that is part of a modern aircraft's overall autopilot capabilities. A basic autopilot can control an aircraft's attitude and heading, but an autoland system can automatically execute the full landing procedure.
danielvaughn 1y ago
Yes but it should have been obvious that in the context of Waymo + SFO, the implication was autonomous flying of commercial airlines.

bdcravens 1y ago

I have zero expertise for my claim, but I feel like autonomous flight is easier than autonomous driving.

snickerdoodle14 1y ago
I also feel like the demand is way, way lower. A pilot can't be that large a % of the cost of a flight. Maybe if we lived in the jetsons era.
- rkomorn 1y ago
  Depends on the size of the plane, really. One of the reasons a few companies were investing in fully autonomous air taxis is because the math on a small piloted aircraft wasn't realistic for a low enough price point to be competitive.
- seanmcdirmid 1y ago
  The problem is actually safety. As automated systems get better, the pilot is left with not much to do, and has to maintain vigilance while being really really bored. It is almost better to have fewer automated systems and give the pilot more things to do during the flight so it is easier to keep them paying attention, or all automated with no human pilot to mess things up.
0_____0 1y ago
In the abstract yes but in practice the economic (ratio of cost of pilot to pax miles) and safety context of aviation mean fully autonomous flying has to be extremely robust before it has actual utility in industry.
- rkomorn 1y ago
  In practice, you're also currently very reliant on infrastructure that is definitely not as solid as you want (eg: ILS and GPS can be interfered with quite nastily). ILS being under maintenance and unavailable for certain runways is also far from unusual.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

Fomite 1y ago

Mine as well, and I was crossing SFO off the list of airports I'd connect through.

onetokeoverthe 1y ago

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