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Nintendo Switch 2 Dock USB-C Compatibility

298 points by croes 1y ago

qwertytyyuu 1y ago
Woah, Lttlabs on hacker news front page!
spartanatreyu 1y ago
Didn't know LTT's labs was already running. I'll be curious to see how their testing and data compares to gamersnexus testing and what their first catching a manufacturer's lies event will be.
- gregoryl 1y ago
  I'm surprised it continues to exist at all. The main content ltt puts out these days is purely mass market entertainment. Physical products are still pretty good!
  - viraptor 1y ago
    You're surprised they still exist... because they target wider audiences?
    - ffsm8 1y ago
      No, his point was that the lab isn't necessary for the content ltt is producing, so he expected them to stop the lab project to keep the profits higher
      - linotype 1y ago
        I’ve been out of the loop, what happened?
      - Foorack 1y ago
        Linus is no longer CEO but he and Ivonne still own 100% of shares. They seem to have enough money, so can burn on projects they feel passionate about like Badminton Center or LTTLabs.
        rcxdude 1y ago
        This, Linus has stated he doesn't expect either to be particularly good business decisions, though they will hopefully sustain themselves, and it seems to mostly be because it's something he wants to exist.
      - ZenoArrow 1y ago
        Other than LTT continuing with LTT Labs just because they enjoy deeper dives into tech, I'd imagine it also serves a practical purpose, in that if it's a slow tech news day, and they can't think of a video concept they want to try, they have a ready-made set of labs content they can base a video on.
      - iamtedd 1y ago
        What? Labs is the source of all benchmark and performance data they show on the main channel productions. Labs is necessary for their content.
        alpaca128 1y ago
        They had benchmarks before Labs as well and almost 100% of tech reviewers don't have this kind of equipment, so no, it's not necessary. But it definitely helps.
        viraptor 1y ago
        Now they have automated benchmarks across more test configs. This is something almost no reviewers have available. That's partially from labs investment. They also have destructive benchmarks like they did with the power supplies - again almost nobody does those in public.
        alpaca128 1y ago
        That's true and I agree this is valuable for the audience, but still it is not necessary. Most successful tech reviewers put out good content without these resources.
        avianlyric 1y ago
        I would assume LTT does this to build and retain a clear competitive advantage over their competitors in the same space. I don’t think LTT goal is just be another commodity YouTube review site whose entire appeal is dependent on a single personality. That not really a scalable or long term sustainable approach. Large journalist organisations of any kind aren’t built by aiming to be mediocre.
        iamtedd 1y ago
        "Good" content without data is unsubstantiated content. Data to provide evidence of performance objectively evaluates products, benefiting everyone. For example, show me who has been verifying the quality and performance claims of computer power supplies without equipment such as LTT labs. If you want to be reductive about it - technology and their gadgets are valuable for the audience, but not strictly necessary.
      - chippiewill 1y ago
        That's always been the case though, even when labs started. The reason labs was started was to be able to produce different kinds of content, and to have a moat on technical data and quality of reviews that no one else can pull off.
  - Dennip 1y ago
    They still regularly reference labs sourced findings & data in the current videos.
  - theshrike79 1y ago
    https://www.lttlabs.com https://www.lttlabs.com They have their own site and all
- mosquitobiten 1y ago
  yeah, they catch lies pretty regularly but they don't act like "OMFG THIS IS SOO BAAAD!!!". it's one of the things I like about LTT, they are more neutral or positive in their content. they try to be viral but usually don't ride the negativity/toxic viral wave.
  - akimbostrawman 1y ago
    Its better for business and sponsor relationships to be that way. That's why I prefer gamersnexus since they only serve the viewer and consumer, they can afford to tread on companies toes freely. Without a bit of sensationalism people and companies would never care.
ls612 1y ago
They put up a video the other day with the summary of this testing, but it’s cool that the full table is now available.
franky47 1y ago
I own a Switch 1, and the other day I wanted to play on the train, but the battery was low. I figured "no problem, I can connect it to my laptop and let it charge off is battery". Nope. The MacBook Pro started charging off the Switch instead.
- parhamn 1y ago
  I've wondered how this works (and who wins).
  - scottapotamas 1y ago
    For two DRP (dual role) devices connected to each other, I believe in a default case the one that happens to advertise as a source first just becomes one. The standard allows for a role swap at any point while connected, and if that’s triggered will be dependent on the firmware/config on one or both ends. There’s probably more nuance hiding in the real world hardware too.
    - unsnap_biceps 1y ago
      According to https://superuser.com/a/1773195 https://superuser.com/a/1773195 > Any DRP port must have pull-down 5k1 resistors on CC wires (as a sink), AND 10-22-56k pull-ups (as provider), but not at the same time. The DRP then alternates the sink advertising (5k1 pull-downs) with pull-ups (source advertising) about 10 to 20 times per second. > If another DRP is connected, they both will toggle their advertising until a correct (pull-up - pull-down) combination occurs. Then CC controller(s) will stop toggling, and the end that happens to be in provider mode will provide +5VSAFE VBUS. The process will end in one or other direction, which will happen at random (since frequencies of toggling are independent).
      - franky47 1y ago
        A protocol designed on who wins an race condition? That's wild.
snailmailman 1y ago
Interesting. I saw some of their video about this the other day. The video gives the impression that Nintendo is intentionally not supporting external monitors that aren’t the official switch dock. But the conclusion on this article seems to lean more towards that it could be a mistake or bug. I guess that might be the case - didn’t they screw up USB-C on the switch 1? I know it’s an incredibly complex standard. I guess the only way to know if it’s intentional or a bug, is if Nintendo updates the switch to fix it. As Linus said in his video, the Nintendo USB isn’t very “universal”.
- hsbauauvhabzb 1y ago
  The ltt video didn’t suggest it was intentional, it was careful not to. But Nintendo were certainly aware of it before release.
  - snailmailman 1y ago
    It was certainly heavily implied to be intentional. With the title referencing "Nintendo’s greed"[0] and in the first minute they call it “locking down a product, not for a good reason, but just because [nintendo] can, or […] because <bleep> you” It’s not until much further in the video that they backtrack a bit and call it “tactical laziness” by Nintendo. Honestly, I did not get that far on my first watch. [0] YouTube now confusingly shows different titles randomly. I’m seeing “Nintendo’s Greed could Change the Tech Industry” but that may not be its real title for all I know.
    - Barbing 1y ago
      re: [0], that’ll likely be the uploader modifying the title - they test titles and thumbnails until one grabs attention See Tom Scott video, “this video has 74 million views“ (quantity subject to change in future)
    - Gigachad 1y ago
      Modern youtube has uploaders submit multiple thumbnails and headlines, then it AB tests them and selects the one that performed best. Pretty much every news website seems to do the same thing these days too.
viraptor 1y ago
Some labels/descriptions could use a bit more polish. For example in test 8 "Averages 15 W delivered to the Switch at maximum." - I kinda see what they mean, but that's a very awkward way to phrase it. The maximum is over 20W. There's a few spikes that go over. I guess that's the maximum for a moving average? For their labs, they could be more precise.
- mystifyingpoi 1y ago
  Agreed. Also I'm curious about "measured before AC adapter" - what? Does it mean that this data includes the losses from the AC adapter?
alex_f_k 1y ago
From lttlabs: > The inability for most docks to support the Switch 2 may not be malicious from Nintendo. It might just be a poor or lazy implementation of the USB-C specification From the verge [0], 2 months ago: > When I analyze the conversation between the Nintendo Switch 2 and its dock, I can see the two devices begin speaking in Nintendo’s own flavor of “vendor defined” language early in the conversation, before they sign off on any video output. And then, seemingly before the dock confirms that it’s engaged video-out, they send over 30 proprietary “unstructured” messages to one another. > […] > According to Antank, which says it checked with its chip supplier, that hexadecimal string “is indeed the current key being used by Nintendo.” My other sources are less sure. I'm pretty sure lttl's conclusion is plain wrong. It is not JUST lazy USB-C implementation, but a purposefully designed special proprietary protocol on top of USB-C [0] https://www.theverge.com/report/695915/switch-2-usb-c-third-party-docks-dont-work-authentication-encryption https://www.theverge.com/report/695915/switch-2-usb-c-third-...
- notrealyme123 1y ago
  At least on the video they made it quite clear that they assumed thant Nintendo did it on purpose, but they did not have enough proof to actually say it. So instead they sad "Nintendo stopped early with developing compatibility"
  - whatevaa 1y ago
    They had to tip toe around this to avoid lawsuits. In practice, they made it quite clear they think this is on purpose.
    - ChrisGreenHeur 1y ago
      I'm not so sure nintendo would sue someone over wrong details on specifics of usb-c implementations.
      - machomaster 1y ago
        Nintendo is well-known for suing for all kinds of incredible reasons.
causality0 1y ago
I don't think it's a coincidence that both Switch 1 and Switch 2's usb-c compliance is a shambling wreck. It's pretty clear to me it's a good way to sow doubt and disability in the industry of third-party docks while maintaining perfect plausible deniability.
xahrepap 1y ago
I tried to use a USB-C HDMI dongle I had. But I assumed it was because the switch 2 was looking for something that could deliver enough power and actively cool it, like the first party dock does.
bubblebeard 1y ago
Just one more reason not to buy a Switch 2. Seriously, Nintendo has become worse than Apple when it comes to treating their customers. I own hundreds of Nintendo games and every console they ever made, sometimes in multiples. But when I saw of all the shit they were trying to pull with the Switch 2 I decided I was done with that company for good.
- bzzzt 1y ago
  Nintendo was and is primarily a toy company. The deal is if you buy their stuff you get entertainment. You're pretending it's a general purpose computer to make a point about interoperability, but it's neither. What kind of 'shit' do they pull with Switch 2 they already didn't with Switch 1? Both are expensive DRM locked game devices, Switch 2 is just a bit faster.
  - alpaca128 1y ago
    > What kind of 'shit' do they pull with Switch 2 they already didn't with Switch 1? The shit that the linked article is about, for one.
    - bzzzt 1y ago
      The Switch 1 was worse and could even be bricked by a third party dock. So nothing new there.
  - bubblebeard 1y ago
    For example, they retain the right now to brick your console remotely if you go against their usage policies. Which they retain the right to change at will. So, effectively you really do not own that console in any way shape or form. Shame really, used to like Nintendo once.
raldi 1y ago
I was hoping this site was going to be a list of common chargers that worked with the Switch 2.
- Cthulhu_ 1y ago
  ?? It's USB-C, "all" would be the answer. Unless I'm misinterpreting your hopes.
  - ansgri 1y ago
    It's USB-C, "you'll never know" is the answer, often it's "kinda working, but extra slow". I consider having a cheap USB power meter a necessity at this point.
    - alpaca128 1y ago
      I also found out the hard way that many modern powerbanks will shut themselves off if the charged device doesn't draw enough power, which means many smartwatches will simply not get charged by default. Supposedly that behaviour can be turned off by pressing/holding the power button the right way, but telling non-tech people "with this specific device you just have to remember to first do this arcane ritual before it works" is usually not received well.
  - raldi 1y ago
    Oh my sweet summer child
yuiegi 1y ago
Back in COVID times, when I had all the time in the world, my Switch got bricked after I charged it using my laptop charger. Nintendo refused to honor its warranty, citing some mumbo jumbo about proprietary USB-C hardware. Fortunately, we have pretty good consumer protection laws here in Australia By the end of an entire two month saga, they sent me a brand new Switch. I always did think it was odd that a USB-C cable that wasnt Nintendo could break my Switch.
- wickedsight 1y ago
  It's not that strange. USB-C is a plug, not everyone who implements the plug also implements it correctly. Some chargers with a USB-C Plug might just send a fixed voltage over the cable, rather then implementing the protocols. I'm not saying that's the case for you, but USB-C is a minefield and I've seen some weird things happen with USB-C plugs.
  - stephen_g 1y ago
    Usually a competently designed USB-C input should have over-voltage protection and short-to-VBUS protection for over 20V (25-28V). Putting out any voltage before detecting a sink is breaking the standard, but a charger putting out over 20V without any PD negotiation would be absurdly wrong and dangerous... So there are non-compliant plugs, but if your device breaks just because it sees a regular PD VBUS voltage (5-20V) then it means that it was designed badly - either through ineptitude or foolish cost saving.
    - cesarb 1y ago
      > Putting out any voltage before detecting a sink is breaking the standard To be pedantic, I believe that only applies to USB-C sockets; AFAIK, a USB-C plug (like on a USB-A to USB-C cable) can in some cases put out 5V (but only 5V) before detecting a sink. > but if your device breaks just because it sees a regular PD VBUS voltage (5-20V) then it means that it was designed badly The standard was designed so that devices never see anything over 5V unless they ask for it, so why should a non-PD device (for instance, a mouse) care about it? In some cases (like a USB-A mouse plugged into a USB-A to USB-C adapter), the device might even have been designed and built when USB was 5V only.
reactordev 1y ago
They did this to micro sd cards on the first switch. Looks like they found another way. Nintendo isn’t customer friendly. Gone are the days of the N64 and gone are the days of Nintendo pushing the boundaries of fun and entertainment. Now, they make underpowered handhelds for kids with proprietary dongles like Apple in hopes of trapping their customers to their platform. No thanks.
- whateveracct 1y ago
  They also threaten to sue grassroots scenes playing their >20yo games. Scenes that spend on their own dime to host 1000+ entrant tournaments and use skilled time to push the old game to the limit. (Melee). They have the scene currently in a legal stranglehold. It's partially gagged, but people who host Melee events are beholden to Nintendo so they can't run even lightly modded gameplay. Melee runs on mods always nowadays (input processing patches for fairness and bugfixes), but they mod it in a way that doesn't have any visible difference so they get away with it.
- Podrod 1y ago
  Nintendo have always been a company making toys for kids. Kid toys that are also fun for adults but still primarily for kids. It's the same company as when you were a kid playing N64 or SNES or NES or whatever, just now you're older and jaded.
  - reactordev 1y ago
    Nope, the old guard has passed away. It’s not the same.
- divingdragon 1y ago
  > They did this to micro sd cards on the first switch. What do you mean? From what I know it was bog-standard microSD(HC/XC) with the maximum supported speed being UHS-I with nothing proprietary.
  - ninjatendo 1y ago
rowanG077 1y ago
At such times I wish the USB consortium would flex their muscles. A high profile case that maliciously breaks interoperability.
- ACCount37 1y ago
  USB consortium itself has written a standard for implementing DRM to restrict third party accessories. Which isn't even what Nintendo used there. Still, don't expect anything good to come from them on that front.
- rs186 1y ago
  If USB consortium cared about being consumer friendly, they would have mandated that USB cables clearly mark their capabilities, and require that every cable must transmit data. Instead we have this mess where you don't know whether a cable is good for laptop charging, and whether that same cable can be used for data in addition to charging. (skipping that data wire saves a few cents, that sounds like a great idea!) So nothing will come out of them regarding Nintendo's behavior.
  - ronsor 1y ago
    People often buy USB cables without data wires for security reasons, so personally I would like to keep them around.
5350-uiop-1130 1y ago
for me buying switch 2 is like giving a key to my front door to nintendos lawyers
masfoobar 1y ago
With the behaviour Nintendo has been 'in the last few years' - I no longer will purchase Nintendo consoles. We purchased a Switch and the kids have enjoyed many games on it. After reading other comments on here, I am surprised my Switch has not been bricked - and I am not doing anything dodgy at all. As for the Switch 2. I was showing the announcement videos with the kids - they did not look excited for it. As for me, I was smirking when they were not revealing the price of the console and games. I knew something was up. Within hours there were angry youtube channels blasting their prices. I am not even getting into Nintendo's legal behaviours over ROMs, youtube channels, or games like Palworld. "Oh.. that thing you do in this game... Yeah... we have a patent for that!" Of course, every game Nintendo creates are completely new ideas. Sure, I give Nintendo credit with their involvement in video game history - but I am sure "new features" in Mario Kart World are inspired from other games..... but if you do something Nintendo consider is their idea (especially patented) - they will throw money at you *towards their legal department* Nintendo are not a family-based games company. They lost that title some time, now. Unless they really change their ways, I wont buy Nintendo again. I do not support their practices. Sure we might not have Mario Kart World or Zelda or other Nintendo specific titles - but a decent PC have many, many great games of the last 30 years - and they will run faster, smoother, etc. This Dock <--> USB-C drama is just laughable.
- GuB-42 1y ago
  > Sure we might not have Mario Kart World or Zelda or other Nintendo specific titles Well, that's why people buy Nintendo consoles. You don't buy a Switch 2, you buy the device needed to play Mario Kart and Zelda, whatever it is. In general, consoles are defined by their games, they are not general purpose machines and everything is to be seen from this angle. Hardwares specs don't matter, what matter is how well the games you want to play run. It is even more so with Nintendo as they have generally less powerful hardware with some of the best games as exclusive licenses.
  - masfoobar 1y ago
    If people want to spend £400 on a console, as well as £40-£100 on Nintendo games is their choice. I am sure there are many people who purchased a Switch 2 on launch day and now regret it, likely due to Nintendo's practices. If anything, it likely has made more people aware of Nintendo's behaviour in the last number of years. With this, despite the fact Switch 2 might sell well this generation - I think Nintendo need to be very cautious next time. We shall see. Personally, and I am not poor, but I think it's expensive to purchase Switch 2 + games when I legally do not own them. You are getting what seems to be known as a Revocable License. This means many things. Its not just Nintendo cancelling or bricking your Switch 2 when you do (or presumably) something naughty... it means Nitendo can officially push for end of life to the console itself. While Nintendo may not do this to the Switch 2, servers for games eventually will. Paying nearly £100 for a game that might stop working in 7 years... unless you pay another £500 for their next console and move it over. LOL!!!!! It does not make sense to pay this sort of money when it blurs the lines of ownership. We can go back-and-forth on this all day, but if people have no issues and still want to buy a Switch 2 is up to them. Again.. It's is their choice and I respect that. I have explained this issue to my kids and they understand my point of view and why I wont buy a Switch 2. Of course, if they want to buy one with their own money - they can. The type of model Nintendo are pushing works better like a Netflix monthly subscription.. or... perhaps more comparable to XBox Game pass. They will likely do this next time. I am just interested what their monthly price will be. I am sure it will be laughable! The older generation can see past all the BS.. but the younger generation will blindly accept it. When they get older and see the differences to their first purchase.. then they can moan like I am now. It wont matter.. as the next younger gen will rinse and repeat. The cycle continue. To me, like many things, the best way to make a statement is with your wallet. That's all I am doing. If I am the minority then so be it. I might be pointed or laughed at - but atleast I stood by my principles. (Its similar with Microsoft Windows license going back to the 90s. I dont own it. I purchase the right to use it. I dont agree with it, so I use Linux.)
rickdeckard 1y ago
> "The Nintendo Switch 2 only ever charges at a maximum of 15 W(as far as I can tell)." This is already higher than stated in legal EU-compliance documents [0], where the PD-charger is required to not provide more than 12W "in order to achieve the maximum charging speed" Also interesting[0]: "TV mode requires output power of 54 watts. This is higher than the power requirements for charging given above. This product supports USB PD fast charging and is capable of being recharged by means of wired charging at voltages up to 15 volts" According to this, the device will obviously only use the 20V/3A mode (=60 watts) for TV mode, and will not utilize it for charging. Whereas the provided charger (NGN-01) also supports a 15V USB-PD mode which MAY be used for charging. I assume the device will request max. 15V/1A for charging then, adding up to 15W (not sure why they state the charger should not support "more than 12W"). However, I guess at 15V the majority of power in this state is going to the device and not the battery (they only have a single battery-cell which should be charged with 5V. If they want to charge the battery, they could also request 5V/3A from the charger)... [0] https://www.nintendo.com/eu/media/downloads/support_1/nintendoswitch2/NSwitch2_ImportantInformation_UK.pdf https://www.nintendo.com/eu/media/downloads/support_1/ninten...
blueflow 1y ago
I mean, we are already at the point where you have to put a colored tape on all your usb plugs and sockets to know which ones are compatible and which ones will brick your devices. Maybe its time to drop the "universal" aspect and go back to propietary ports?
- Kurtz79 1y ago
  That makes no sense. No one sane wants to go back to a time where all mobile electronics had separate chargers, especially since the number of mobile devices we use on a daily basis is higher than ever before. If anything, manufacturers that are able to provide working, compatible solutions should be preferred by consumers to those that don't, and the laws of economics will take care of the rest. But some of those manufacturers have large loyal customer bases that will find ways to justify them even if they were to employ child labor, so there is that.
- vel0city 1y ago
  If I have a cable that sucks, I don't bother tagging it. It just goes in the bin. If it doesn't list what its ratings are, I don't buy it. Why bother keeping cables that don't do what you need it to do? Why bother buying cables that don't fit your needs? I'm far happier that I only have one charger in my backpack that works for practically all my portable electronics. I'm far happier I've got an extra power bank in my bag that works with one cable to charge practically all my portable electronics and can be charged by that one wall adapter. I'm far happier I have one dock cable on my desk that provides power/kvm/network to my work laptop, my personal laptop, my spouse's tablet, etc. Far better than having a dozen different cables for a dozen different devices.
lxgr 1y ago
> EPR even supports up to 240 W! Plenty of power for any device you'd reasonably power with USB-C. I feel (or rather hope) we'll see more than that at some point. Being able to replace device-specific wall adapters would be a huge win. This has largely already happened for everything that needs 10 watts or less, but between that and things that actually need a lot of power (i.e. kilowatts, not watts) and/or benefit from AC (mostly motors), there's still an annoying valley of power bricks. I especially hate the type that's hard-wired to the power plug that blocks 1-2 other outlets due to its bulk and inevitably gets lost during a move or trip to storage and back.
- mathis 1y ago
  The situation with chargers isn’t ideal. With a single USB-C port, everything works fine. The problem starts when multiple ports are involved. Plugging in a second device can trigger unpredictable behavior, which is usually acceptable for battery-powered devices. But for devices that need a continuous power supply (e.g., a Raspberry Pi), multi-port chargers aren’t reliable –– connecting another device may briefly interrupt power. Using a traditional power strip with one dedicated adapter per device avoids this issue. For now, I’m sticking with individual USB-C adapters for non-battery-powered devices.
  - avianlyric 1y ago
    It’s a limitation of the early versions of the PD spec. The PD spec now includes features that allow a device to express its needed power draw, and wanted power draw, along with info like the fact they’re a battery pack. In addition the spec now has messages that allow a charger to renegotiate the PD contract with a device with resetting the entire USB-C connection. So if you have chargers and devices that support these elements, you can connect and disconnect devices with interrupting the power to anything else connected. The charger just does a live renegotiation and redistribution of its available power envelope. Also means that when a phone and battery pack get plugged in, the charger can pull power allocation from the battery pack to send to the phone so the phone charges first. Then once the phone is charged, reallocate the power budget to the battery packs again.
L_226 1y ago
Hmm - I use a switch pro controller USB C -C cable to charge my Pixel 8 sometimes, and I notice that the phone often starts and stops charging while plugged in. Maybe there's some extra hardware in that cable...
captainmuon 1y ago
So, as there are a couple of docks coming out that work with Switch 2 and have apparently reverse engineered the protocol... I wonder if some company could make a small dongle that just sits between the switch and my monitor, or my USB-C docking station, and fixes the communication. For a DIY solution, protocol wise it doesn't seem too complicated, but electronically USB-C or HDMI is out of reach for most hobbyists. And I assume most USB-C interface chips you can get aren't programmable to the degree neccessary...
joshstrange 1y ago
I have a different random 5-letter company name version of this one [0] (the one I bought [1]) that LTT tested. I was nervous after remembering stories about Switch 1 “USB-C” shenanigans but at $28 (vs $124 for the original dock) I decided to roll the dice. As far as working as a replacement dock for the original, it does the job very nicely while being smaller and easier to use overall (IMHO). At $28/ea I can afford to have a dock on every TV I would even consider playing my Switch on at less than the cost of 1 official dock. [0] https://antank.net/products/s3-max https://antank.net/products/s3-max [1] https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0FCF8PV2H https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0FCF8PV2H
martini333 1y ago
The LTT video was painful to watch. I don’t know much about USB or USB-PD, but it was clear they didn’t either. It felt like they were just rambling with some vaguely technical jargon, with no actual understanding.
- prism56 1y ago
  It seemed more like the technical guy wrote the post and 'they' made it into a video format without really explaining it. I think they did a bad job. They struck a poor balance between not explaining it and trying to explain it. They should have gone full technical or not at all and stayed very high level regarding the issue of bespoke protocols.
  - aejtaetj 1y ago
    The bespoke protocol was the issue.
fxtentacle 1y ago
"Test 5: DR_SWAP always rejected" That means the monitor tries to change its own role from USB host (which it defaulted to because it's the power source) to USB gadget. And the Switch rejects the request because it sees itself as the USB gadget (for example to exchange data when you connect it to a PC). The article itself also says "Our monitoring of the interactions with the USB-C monitor shows that the negotiation does not even get to the point of the Vendor Defined Messages(VDM)" so I see no hint of foul play by Nintendo. (And why would they? They are not in the business of selling USB monitors.) My guess would be that the connection failure is due to a firmware bug in the monitor. But I am also heavily biased here because my last Asus screen had A LOT of firmware issues.
- cma 1y ago
  > And why would they? They are not in the business of selling USB monitors Not true, they block nreal to make them pay the store fee for an enabling app to make their usbc mini monitors work with the switch.
  - fxtentacle 1y ago
    Assuming that you are referring to the Nreal Air VR goggles, those cannot accept a regular video signal over USB-C. They are NOT monitors. For making them work, they need to do pre-processing of the video stream on the host device, thereby degrading gaming performance. That's why they need an app, because they lack an integrated CPU/GPU and that makes them not compliant with the USB-C monitor spec. And I believe that's also the real reason why Nintendo would block them: They make otherwise fluent games stutter, which will reflect badly on Nintendo and the game developers. Because people in general won't know that their Nreal Air is stealing some of the Switch's GPU performance and that they are creating performance issues themselves.
    - cma 1y ago
      Oh I didn't realize that, I thought they were blacklisting the EDID or something. I thought the projection for them would be simple enough to do on the device, but maybe the unwarping and chromatic aberration correction was too expensive for that or something.
jokoon 1y ago
I guess hardware vendors are allowed to make USBC devices that goes outside the USBC specs? Although this seems to be within the USBC spec? Would be interesting if future hardware standards would not allow to be licensed as "within standard" if they break a few rules. I could see some hardware vendors using their own implementation of a standard just to fool customers into believing it supports a standard while there are exceptions. Isn't that what happened to bluetooth? I am not an apple user, but isn't apple also abusing hardware standards to encourage clients to buy its products?
ziml77 1y ago
Interestingly, there don't seem to be limitations the other way around. I saw a video of someone running a USB-C extension cable into the dock and using that to hook up a Steam Deck to it. It seemed to be fully capable and interestingly even exposed VRR, something that the Switch 2 itself gives you no option for when docked.
aejtaetj 1y ago
For consoles, it was actually the original Xbox that started this trend, using a proprietary physical connector, but with a mostly standard usb protocol, for no other purpose than to be consumer hostile. Physical hacks was of course rapidly found in this case to adapt it to be standard compliant. Then again, with xbox360/kinect, the camera was using the usb procotol, but microsoft prevented it from working with pcs in windows. Instead you had to buy a several times more expensive "pc" version, that had the same specs, except for having the malicious compliance tech was removed. I guess nintendo learned from this.
- extraduder_ire 1y ago
  There was no standard USB connector that the original xbox could have used that still had magnetic attachment.
  - goosedragons 1y ago
    The Xbox breakaway controller cables weren't magnetic. They also could have easily put those on normal USB cables because they were a couple inches from the port anyways.
nocoiner 1y ago
“* The Nintendo Switch 2 dock will request 3 A at 20 V from the point of connection, whether it is planning to use that power or not. * This is in contrast to the Antank dock which will request additional power only when the Switch 2 is turned on and requires additional power. Arguably a better 'citizen' of the USB-C PD specification, potentially bringing your electricity bill down by a few cents” Why would this bring your power bill down? Isn’t that always going to be calculated on the basis of kWh actually drawn?
b0dhimind 1y ago
So what's the best portable emulation device that connects to HDMI too?

298 points by croes 1y ago

Woah, Lttlabs on hacker news front page!

Didn't know LTT's labs was already running. I'll be curious to see how their testing and data compares to gamersnexus testing and what their first catching a manufacturer's lies event will be.

gregoryl 1y ago
I'm surprised it continues to exist at all. The main content ltt puts out these days is purely mass market entertainment. Physical products are still pretty good!
- viraptor 1y ago
  You're surprised they still exist... because they target wider audiences?
  - ffsm8 1y ago
    No, his point was that the lab isn't necessary for the content ltt is producing, so he expected them to stop the lab project to keep the profits higher
    - linotype 1y ago
      I’ve been out of the loop, what happened?
    - Foorack 1y ago
      Linus is no longer CEO but he and Ivonne still own 100% of shares. They seem to have enough money, so can burn on projects they feel passionate about like Badminton Center or LTTLabs.
      - rcxdude 1y ago
        This, Linus has stated he doesn't expect either to be particularly good business decisions, though they will hopefully sustain themselves, and it seems to mostly be because it's something he wants to exist.
    - ZenoArrow 1y ago
      Other than LTT continuing with LTT Labs just because they enjoy deeper dives into tech, I'd imagine it also serves a practical purpose, in that if it's a slow tech news day, and they can't think of a video concept they want to try, they have a ready-made set of labs content they can base a video on.
    - iamtedd 1y ago
      What? Labs is the source of all benchmark and performance data they show on the main channel productions. Labs is necessary for their content.
      - alpaca128 1y ago
        They had benchmarks before Labs as well and almost 100% of tech reviewers don't have this kind of equipment, so no, it's not necessary. But it definitely helps.
        viraptor 1y ago
        Now they have automated benchmarks across more test configs. This is something almost no reviewers have available. That's partially from labs investment. They also have destructive benchmarks like they did with the power supplies - again almost nobody does those in public.
        alpaca128 1y ago
        That's true and I agree this is valuable for the audience, but still it is not necessary. Most successful tech reviewers put out good content without these resources.
        avianlyric 1y ago
        I would assume LTT does this to build and retain a clear competitive advantage over their competitors in the same space. I don’t think LTT goal is just be another commodity YouTube review site whose entire appeal is dependent on a single personality. That not really a scalable or long term sustainable approach. Large journalist organisations of any kind aren’t built by aiming to be mediocre.
        iamtedd 1y ago
        "Good" content without data is unsubstantiated content. Data to provide evidence of performance objectively evaluates products, benefiting everyone. For example, show me who has been verifying the quality and performance claims of computer power supplies without equipment such as LTT labs. If you want to be reductive about it - technology and their gadgets are valuable for the audience, but not strictly necessary.
    - chippiewill 1y ago
      That's always been the case though, even when labs started. The reason labs was started was to be able to produce different kinds of content, and to have a moat on technical data and quality of reviews that no one else can pull off.
- Dennip 1y ago
  They still regularly reference labs sourced findings & data in the current videos.
- theshrike79 1y ago
  https://www.lttlabs.com https://www.lttlabs.com They have their own site and all
mosquitobiten 1y ago
yeah, they catch lies pretty regularly but they don't act like "OMFG THIS IS SOO BAAAD!!!". it's one of the things I like about LTT, they are more neutral or positive in their content. they try to be viral but usually don't ride the negativity/toxic viral wave.
- akimbostrawman 1y ago
  Its better for business and sponsor relationships to be that way. That's why I prefer gamersnexus since they only serve the viewer and consumer, they can afford to tread on companies toes freely. Without a bit of sensationalism people and companies would never care.

ls612 1y ago

They put up a video the other day with the summary of this testing, but it’s cool that the full table is now available.

franky47 1y ago

I own a Switch 1, and the other day I wanted to play on the train, but the battery was low. I figured "no problem, I can connect it to my laptop and let it charge off is battery". Nope. The MacBook Pro started charging off the Switch instead.

parhamn 1y ago
I've wondered how this works (and who wins).
- scottapotamas 1y ago
  For two DRP (dual role) devices connected to each other, I believe in a default case the one that happens to advertise as a source first just becomes one. The standard allows for a role swap at any point while connected, and if that’s triggered will be dependent on the firmware/config on one or both ends. There’s probably more nuance hiding in the real world hardware too.
  - unsnap_biceps 1y ago
    According to https://superuser.com/a/1773195 https://superuser.com/a/1773195 > Any DRP port must have pull-down 5k1 resistors on CC wires (as a sink), AND 10-22-56k pull-ups (as provider), but not at the same time. The DRP then alternates the sink advertising (5k1 pull-downs) with pull-ups (source advertising) about 10 to 20 times per second. > If another DRP is connected, they both will toggle their advertising until a correct (pull-up - pull-down) combination occurs. Then CC controller(s) will stop toggling, and the end that happens to be in provider mode will provide +5VSAFE VBUS. The process will end in one or other direction, which will happen at random (since frequencies of toggling are independent).
    - franky47 1y ago
      A protocol designed on who wins an race condition? That's wild.

snailmailman 1y ago

Interesting. I saw some of their video about this the other day. The video gives the impression that Nintendo is intentionally not supporting external monitors that aren’t the official switch dock. But the conclusion on this article seems to lean more towards that it could be a mistake or bug. I guess that might be the case - didn’t they screw up USB-C on the switch 1? I know it’s an incredibly complex standard. I guess the only way to know if it’s intentional or a bug, is if Nintendo updates the switch to fix it. As Linus said in his video, the Nintendo USB isn’t very “universal”.

hsbauauvhabzb 1y ago
The ltt video didn’t suggest it was intentional, it was careful not to. But Nintendo were certainly aware of it before release.
- snailmailman 1y ago
  It was certainly heavily implied to be intentional. With the title referencing "Nintendo’s greed"[0] and in the first minute they call it “locking down a product, not for a good reason, but just because [nintendo] can, or […] because <bleep> you” It’s not until much further in the video that they backtrack a bit and call it “tactical laziness” by Nintendo. Honestly, I did not get that far on my first watch. [0] YouTube now confusingly shows different titles randomly. I’m seeing “Nintendo’s Greed could Change the Tech Industry” but that may not be its real title for all I know.
  - Barbing 1y ago
    re: [0], that’ll likely be the uploader modifying the title - they test titles and thumbnails until one grabs attention See Tom Scott video, “this video has 74 million views“ (quantity subject to change in future)
  - Gigachad 1y ago
    Modern youtube has uploaders submit multiple thumbnails and headlines, then it AB tests them and selects the one that performed best. Pretty much every news website seems to do the same thing these days too.

viraptor 1y ago

Some labels/descriptions could use a bit more polish. For example in test 8 "Averages 15 W delivered to the Switch at maximum." - I kinda see what they mean, but that's a very awkward way to phrase it. The maximum is over 20W. There's a few spikes that go over. I guess that's the maximum for a moving average? For their labs, they could be more precise.

mystifyingpoi 1y ago
Agreed. Also I'm curious about "measured before AC adapter" - what? Does it mean that this data includes the losses from the AC adapter?

alex_f_k 1y ago

From lttlabs: > The inability for most docks to support the Switch 2 may not be malicious from Nintendo. It might just be a poor or lazy implementation of the USB-C specification From the verge [0], 2 months ago: > When I analyze the conversation between the Nintendo Switch 2 and its dock, I can see the two devices begin speaking in Nintendo’s own flavor of “vendor defined” language early in the conversation, before they sign off on any video output. And then, seemingly before the dock confirms that it’s engaged video-out, they send over 30 proprietary “unstructured” messages to one another. > […] > According to Antank, which says it checked with its chip supplier, that hexadecimal string “is indeed the current key being used by Nintendo.” My other sources are less sure. I'm pretty sure lttl's conclusion is plain wrong. It is not JUST lazy USB-C implementation, but a purposefully designed special proprietary protocol on top of USB-C [0] https://www.theverge.com/report/695915/switch-2-usb-c-third-party-docks-dont-work-authentication-encryption https://www.theverge.com/report/695915/switch-2-usb-c-third-...

notrealyme123 1y ago
At least on the video they made it quite clear that they assumed thant Nintendo did it on purpose, but they did not have enough proof to actually say it. So instead they sad "Nintendo stopped early with developing compatibility"
- whatevaa 1y ago
  They had to tip toe around this to avoid lawsuits. In practice, they made it quite clear they think this is on purpose.
  - ChrisGreenHeur 1y ago
    I'm not so sure nintendo would sue someone over wrong details on specifics of usb-c implementations.
    - machomaster 1y ago
      Nintendo is well-known for suing for all kinds of incredible reasons.

causality0 1y ago

I don't think it's a coincidence that both Switch 1 and Switch 2's usb-c compliance is a shambling wreck. It's pretty clear to me it's a good way to sow doubt and disability in the industry of third-party docks while maintaining perfect plausible deniability.

xahrepap 1y ago

I tried to use a USB-C HDMI dongle I had. But I assumed it was because the switch 2 was looking for something that could deliver enough power and actively cool it, like the first party dock does.

bubblebeard 1y ago

Just one more reason not to buy a Switch 2. Seriously, Nintendo has become worse than Apple when it comes to treating their customers. I own hundreds of Nintendo games and every console they ever made, sometimes in multiples. But when I saw of all the shit they were trying to pull with the Switch 2 I decided I was done with that company for good.

bzzzt 1y ago
Nintendo was and is primarily a toy company. The deal is if you buy their stuff you get entertainment. You're pretending it's a general purpose computer to make a point about interoperability, but it's neither. What kind of 'shit' do they pull with Switch 2 they already didn't with Switch 1? Both are expensive DRM locked game devices, Switch 2 is just a bit faster.
- alpaca128 1y ago
  > What kind of 'shit' do they pull with Switch 2 they already didn't with Switch 1? The shit that the linked article is about, for one.
  - bzzzt 1y ago
    The Switch 1 was worse and could even be bricked by a third party dock. So nothing new there.
- bubblebeard 1y ago
  For example, they retain the right now to brick your console remotely if you go against their usage policies. Which they retain the right to change at will. So, effectively you really do not own that console in any way shape or form. Shame really, used to like Nintendo once.

raldi 1y ago

I was hoping this site was going to be a list of common chargers that worked with the Switch 2.

Cthulhu_ 1y ago
?? It's USB-C, "all" would be the answer. Unless I'm misinterpreting your hopes.
- ansgri 1y ago
  It's USB-C, "you'll never know" is the answer, often it's "kinda working, but extra slow". I consider having a cheap USB power meter a necessity at this point.
  - alpaca128 1y ago
    I also found out the hard way that many modern powerbanks will shut themselves off if the charged device doesn't draw enough power, which means many smartwatches will simply not get charged by default. Supposedly that behaviour can be turned off by pressing/holding the power button the right way, but telling non-tech people "with this specific device you just have to remember to first do this arcane ritual before it works" is usually not received well.
- raldi 1y ago
  Oh my sweet summer child

yuiegi 1y ago

Back in COVID times, when I had all the time in the world, my Switch got bricked after I charged it using my laptop charger. Nintendo refused to honor its warranty, citing some mumbo jumbo about proprietary USB-C hardware. Fortunately, we have pretty good consumer protection laws here in Australia By the end of an entire two month saga, they sent me a brand new Switch. I always did think it was odd that a USB-C cable that wasnt Nintendo could break my Switch.

wickedsight 1y ago
It's not that strange. USB-C is a plug, not everyone who implements the plug also implements it correctly. Some chargers with a USB-C Plug might just send a fixed voltage over the cable, rather then implementing the protocols. I'm not saying that's the case for you, but USB-C is a minefield and I've seen some weird things happen with USB-C plugs.
- stephen_g 1y ago
  Usually a competently designed USB-C input should have over-voltage protection and short-to-VBUS protection for over 20V (25-28V). Putting out any voltage before detecting a sink is breaking the standard, but a charger putting out over 20V without any PD negotiation would be absurdly wrong and dangerous... So there are non-compliant plugs, but if your device breaks just because it sees a regular PD VBUS voltage (5-20V) then it means that it was designed badly - either through ineptitude or foolish cost saving.
  - cesarb 1y ago
    > Putting out any voltage before detecting a sink is breaking the standard To be pedantic, I believe that only applies to USB-C sockets; AFAIK, a USB-C plug (like on a USB-A to USB-C cable) can in some cases put out 5V (but only 5V) before detecting a sink. > but if your device breaks just because it sees a regular PD VBUS voltage (5-20V) then it means that it was designed badly The standard was designed so that devices never see anything over 5V unless they ask for it, so why should a non-PD device (for instance, a mouse) care about it? In some cases (like a USB-A mouse plugged into a USB-A to USB-C adapter), the device might even have been designed and built when USB was 5V only.

reactordev 1y ago

They did this to micro sd cards on the first switch. Looks like they found another way. Nintendo isn’t customer friendly. Gone are the days of the N64 and gone are the days of Nintendo pushing the boundaries of fun and entertainment. Now, they make underpowered handhelds for kids with proprietary dongles like Apple in hopes of trapping their customers to their platform. No thanks.

whateveracct 1y ago
They also threaten to sue grassroots scenes playing their >20yo games. Scenes that spend on their own dime to host 1000+ entrant tournaments and use skilled time to push the old game to the limit. (Melee). They have the scene currently in a legal stranglehold. It's partially gagged, but people who host Melee events are beholden to Nintendo so they can't run even lightly modded gameplay. Melee runs on mods always nowadays (input processing patches for fairness and bugfixes), but they mod it in a way that doesn't have any visible difference so they get away with it.
Podrod 1y ago
Nintendo have always been a company making toys for kids. Kid toys that are also fun for adults but still primarily for kids. It's the same company as when you were a kid playing N64 or SNES or NES or whatever, just now you're older and jaded.
- reactordev 1y ago
  Nope, the old guard has passed away. It’s not the same.
divingdragon 1y ago
> They did this to micro sd cards on the first switch. What do you mean? From what I know it was bog-standard microSD(HC/XC) with the maximum supported speed being UHS-I with nothing proprietary.
- ninjatendo 1y ago

rowanG077 1y ago

At such times I wish the USB consortium would flex their muscles. A high profile case that maliciously breaks interoperability.

ACCount37 1y ago
USB consortium itself has written a standard for implementing DRM to restrict third party accessories. Which isn't even what Nintendo used there. Still, don't expect anything good to come from them on that front.
rs186 1y ago
If USB consortium cared about being consumer friendly, they would have mandated that USB cables clearly mark their capabilities, and require that every cable must transmit data. Instead we have this mess where you don't know whether a cable is good for laptop charging, and whether that same cable can be used for data in addition to charging. (skipping that data wire saves a few cents, that sounds like a great idea!) So nothing will come out of them regarding Nintendo's behavior.
- ronsor 1y ago
  People often buy USB cables without data wires for security reasons, so personally I would like to keep them around.

5350-uiop-1130 1y ago

for me buying switch 2 is like giving a key to my front door to nintendos lawyers

masfoobar 1y ago

With the behaviour Nintendo has been 'in the last few years' - I no longer will purchase Nintendo consoles. We purchased a Switch and the kids have enjoyed many games on it. After reading other comments on here, I am surprised my Switch has not been bricked - and I am not doing anything dodgy at all. As for the Switch 2. I was showing the announcement videos with the kids - they did not look excited for it. As for me, I was smirking when they were not revealing the price of the console and games. I knew something was up. Within hours there were angry youtube channels blasting their prices. I am not even getting into Nintendo's legal behaviours over ROMs, youtube channels, or games like Palworld. "Oh.. that thing you do in this game... Yeah... we have a patent for that!" Of course, every game Nintendo creates are completely new ideas. Sure, I give Nintendo credit with their involvement in video game history - but I am sure "new features" in Mario Kart World are inspired from other games..... but if you do something Nintendo consider is their idea (especially patented) - they will throw money at you *towards their legal department* Nintendo are not a family-based games company. They lost that title some time, now. Unless they really change their ways, I wont buy Nintendo again. I do not support their practices. Sure we might not have Mario Kart World or Zelda or other Nintendo specific titles - but a decent PC have many, many great games of the last 30 years - and they will run faster, smoother, etc. This Dock <--> USB-C drama is just laughable.

GuB-42 1y ago
> Sure we might not have Mario Kart World or Zelda or other Nintendo specific titles Well, that's why people buy Nintendo consoles. You don't buy a Switch 2, you buy the device needed to play Mario Kart and Zelda, whatever it is. In general, consoles are defined by their games, they are not general purpose machines and everything is to be seen from this angle. Hardwares specs don't matter, what matter is how well the games you want to play run. It is even more so with Nintendo as they have generally less powerful hardware with some of the best games as exclusive licenses.
- masfoobar 1y ago
  If people want to spend £400 on a console, as well as £40-£100 on Nintendo games is their choice. I am sure there are many people who purchased a Switch 2 on launch day and now regret it, likely due to Nintendo's practices. If anything, it likely has made more people aware of Nintendo's behaviour in the last number of years. With this, despite the fact Switch 2 might sell well this generation - I think Nintendo need to be very cautious next time. We shall see. Personally, and I am not poor, but I think it's expensive to purchase Switch 2 + games when I legally do not own them. You are getting what seems to be known as a Revocable License. This means many things. Its not just Nintendo cancelling or bricking your Switch 2 when you do (or presumably) something naughty... it means Nitendo can officially push for end of life to the console itself. While Nintendo may not do this to the Switch 2, servers for games eventually will. Paying nearly £100 for a game that might stop working in 7 years... unless you pay another £500 for their next console and move it over. LOL!!!!! It does not make sense to pay this sort of money when it blurs the lines of ownership. We can go back-and-forth on this all day, but if people have no issues and still want to buy a Switch 2 is up to them. Again.. It's is their choice and I respect that. I have explained this issue to my kids and they understand my point of view and why I wont buy a Switch 2. Of course, if they want to buy one with their own money - they can. The type of model Nintendo are pushing works better like a Netflix monthly subscription.. or... perhaps more comparable to XBox Game pass. They will likely do this next time. I am just interested what their monthly price will be. I am sure it will be laughable! The older generation can see past all the BS.. but the younger generation will blindly accept it. When they get older and see the differences to their first purchase.. then they can moan like I am now. It wont matter.. as the next younger gen will rinse and repeat. The cycle continue. To me, like many things, the best way to make a statement is with your wallet. That's all I am doing. If I am the minority then so be it. I might be pointed or laughed at - but atleast I stood by my principles. (Its similar with Microsoft Windows license going back to the 90s. I dont own it. I purchase the right to use it. I dont agree with it, so I use Linux.)

rickdeckard 1y ago

> "The Nintendo Switch 2 only ever charges at a maximum of 15 W(as far as I can tell)." This is already higher than stated in legal EU-compliance documents [0], where the PD-charger is required to not provide more than 12W "in order to achieve the maximum charging speed" Also interesting[0]: "TV mode requires output power of 54 watts. This is higher than the power requirements for charging given above. This product supports USB PD fast charging and is capable of being recharged by means of wired charging at voltages up to 15 volts" According to this, the device will obviously only use the 20V/3A mode (=60 watts) for TV mode, and will not utilize it for charging. Whereas the provided charger (NGN-01) also supports a 15V USB-PD mode which MAY be used for charging. I assume the device will request max. 15V/1A for charging then, adding up to 15W (not sure why they state the charger should not support "more than 12W"). However, I guess at 15V the majority of power in this state is going to the device and not the battery (they only have a single battery-cell which should be charged with 5V. If they want to charge the battery, they could also request 5V/3A from the charger)... [0] https://www.nintendo.com/eu/media/downloads/support_1/nintendoswitch2/NSwitch2_ImportantInformation_UK.pdf https://www.nintendo.com/eu/media/downloads/support_1/ninten...

blueflow 1y ago

I mean, we are already at the point where you have to put a colored tape on all your usb plugs and sockets to know which ones are compatible and which ones will brick your devices. Maybe its time to drop the "universal" aspect and go back to propietary ports?

Kurtz79 1y ago
That makes no sense. No one sane wants to go back to a time where all mobile electronics had separate chargers, especially since the number of mobile devices we use on a daily basis is higher than ever before. If anything, manufacturers that are able to provide working, compatible solutions should be preferred by consumers to those that don't, and the laws of economics will take care of the rest. But some of those manufacturers have large loyal customer bases that will find ways to justify them even if they were to employ child labor, so there is that.
vel0city 1y ago
If I have a cable that sucks, I don't bother tagging it. It just goes in the bin. If it doesn't list what its ratings are, I don't buy it. Why bother keeping cables that don't do what you need it to do? Why bother buying cables that don't fit your needs? I'm far happier that I only have one charger in my backpack that works for practically all my portable electronics. I'm far happier I've got an extra power bank in my bag that works with one cable to charge practically all my portable electronics and can be charged by that one wall adapter. I'm far happier I have one dock cable on my desk that provides power/kvm/network to my work laptop, my personal laptop, my spouse's tablet, etc. Far better than having a dozen different cables for a dozen different devices.

lxgr 1y ago

> EPR even supports up to 240 W! Plenty of power for any device you'd reasonably power with USB-C. I feel (or rather hope) we'll see more than that at some point. Being able to replace device-specific wall adapters would be a huge win. This has largely already happened for everything that needs 10 watts or less, but between that and things that actually need a lot of power (i.e. kilowatts, not watts) and/or benefit from AC (mostly motors), there's still an annoying valley of power bricks. I especially hate the type that's hard-wired to the power plug that blocks 1-2 other outlets due to its bulk and inevitably gets lost during a move or trip to storage and back.

mathis 1y ago
The situation with chargers isn’t ideal. With a single USB-C port, everything works fine. The problem starts when multiple ports are involved. Plugging in a second device can trigger unpredictable behavior, which is usually acceptable for battery-powered devices. But for devices that need a continuous power supply (e.g., a Raspberry Pi), multi-port chargers aren’t reliable –– connecting another device may briefly interrupt power. Using a traditional power strip with one dedicated adapter per device avoids this issue. For now, I’m sticking with individual USB-C adapters for non-battery-powered devices.
- avianlyric 1y ago
  It’s a limitation of the early versions of the PD spec. The PD spec now includes features that allow a device to express its needed power draw, and wanted power draw, along with info like the fact they’re a battery pack. In addition the spec now has messages that allow a charger to renegotiate the PD contract with a device with resetting the entire USB-C connection. So if you have chargers and devices that support these elements, you can connect and disconnect devices with interrupting the power to anything else connected. The charger just does a live renegotiation and redistribution of its available power envelope. Also means that when a phone and battery pack get plugged in, the charger can pull power allocation from the battery pack to send to the phone so the phone charges first. Then once the phone is charged, reallocate the power budget to the battery packs again.

L_226 1y ago

Hmm - I use a switch pro controller USB C -C cable to charge my Pixel 8 sometimes, and I notice that the phone often starts and stops charging while plugged in. Maybe there's some extra hardware in that cable...

captainmuon 1y ago

So, as there are a couple of docks coming out that work with Switch 2 and have apparently reverse engineered the protocol... I wonder if some company could make a small dongle that just sits between the switch and my monitor, or my USB-C docking station, and fixes the communication. For a DIY solution, protocol wise it doesn't seem too complicated, but electronically USB-C or HDMI is out of reach for most hobbyists. And I assume most USB-C interface chips you can get aren't programmable to the degree neccessary...

joshstrange 1y ago

I have a different random 5-letter company name version of this one [0] (the one I bought [1]) that LTT tested. I was nervous after remembering stories about Switch 1 “USB-C” shenanigans but at $28 (vs $124 for the original dock) I decided to roll the dice. As far as working as a replacement dock for the original, it does the job very nicely while being smaller and easier to use overall (IMHO). At $28/ea I can afford to have a dock on every TV I would even consider playing my Switch on at less than the cost of 1 official dock. [0] https://antank.net/products/s3-max https://antank.net/products/s3-max [1] https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0FCF8PV2H https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0FCF8PV2H

martini333 1y ago

The LTT video was painful to watch. I don’t know much about USB or USB-PD, but it was clear they didn’t either. It felt like they were just rambling with some vaguely technical jargon, with no actual understanding.

prism56 1y ago
It seemed more like the technical guy wrote the post and 'they' made it into a video format without really explaining it. I think they did a bad job. They struck a poor balance between not explaining it and trying to explain it. They should have gone full technical or not at all and stayed very high level regarding the issue of bespoke protocols.
- aejtaetj 1y ago
  The bespoke protocol was the issue.

fxtentacle 1y ago

"Test 5: DR_SWAP always rejected" That means the monitor tries to change its own role from USB host (which it defaulted to because it's the power source) to USB gadget. And the Switch rejects the request because it sees itself as the USB gadget (for example to exchange data when you connect it to a PC). The article itself also says "Our monitoring of the interactions with the USB-C monitor shows that the negotiation does not even get to the point of the Vendor Defined Messages(VDM)" so I see no hint of foul play by Nintendo. (And why would they? They are not in the business of selling USB monitors.) My guess would be that the connection failure is due to a firmware bug in the monitor. But I am also heavily biased here because my last Asus screen had A LOT of firmware issues.

cma 1y ago
> And why would they? They are not in the business of selling USB monitors Not true, they block nreal to make them pay the store fee for an enabling app to make their usbc mini monitors work with the switch.
- fxtentacle 1y ago
  Assuming that you are referring to the Nreal Air VR goggles, those cannot accept a regular video signal over USB-C. They are NOT monitors. For making them work, they need to do pre-processing of the video stream on the host device, thereby degrading gaming performance. That's why they need an app, because they lack an integrated CPU/GPU and that makes them not compliant with the USB-C monitor spec. And I believe that's also the real reason why Nintendo would block them: They make otherwise fluent games stutter, which will reflect badly on Nintendo and the game developers. Because people in general won't know that their Nreal Air is stealing some of the Switch's GPU performance and that they are creating performance issues themselves.
  - cma 1y ago
    Oh I didn't realize that, I thought they were blacklisting the EDID or something. I thought the projection for them would be simple enough to do on the device, but maybe the unwarping and chromatic aberration correction was too expensive for that or something.

jokoon 1y ago

I guess hardware vendors are allowed to make USBC devices that goes outside the USBC specs? Although this seems to be within the USBC spec? Would be interesting if future hardware standards would not allow to be licensed as "within standard" if they break a few rules. I could see some hardware vendors using their own implementation of a standard just to fool customers into believing it supports a standard while there are exceptions. Isn't that what happened to bluetooth? I am not an apple user, but isn't apple also abusing hardware standards to encourage clients to buy its products?

ziml77 1y ago

Interestingly, there don't seem to be limitations the other way around. I saw a video of someone running a USB-C extension cable into the dock and using that to hook up a Steam Deck to it. It seemed to be fully capable and interestingly even exposed VRR, something that the Switch 2 itself gives you no option for when docked.

aejtaetj 1y ago

For consoles, it was actually the original Xbox that started this trend, using a proprietary physical connector, but with a mostly standard usb protocol, for no other purpose than to be consumer hostile. Physical hacks was of course rapidly found in this case to adapt it to be standard compliant. Then again, with xbox360/kinect, the camera was using the usb procotol, but microsoft prevented it from working with pcs in windows. Instead you had to buy a several times more expensive "pc" version, that had the same specs, except for having the malicious compliance tech was removed. I guess nintendo learned from this.

extraduder_ire 1y ago
There was no standard USB connector that the original xbox could have used that still had magnetic attachment.
- goosedragons 1y ago
  The Xbox breakaway controller cables weren't magnetic. They also could have easily put those on normal USB cables because they were a couple inches from the port anyways.

nocoiner 1y ago

“* The Nintendo Switch 2 dock will request 3 A at 20 V from the point of connection, whether it is planning to use that power or not. * This is in contrast to the Antank dock which will request additional power only when the Switch 2 is turned on and requires additional power. Arguably a better 'citizen' of the USB-C PD specification, potentially bringing your electricity bill down by a few cents” Why would this bring your power bill down? Isn’t that always going to be calculated on the basis of kWh actually drawn?

b0dhimind 1y ago

So what's the best portable emulation device that connects to HDMI too?