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Apple revokes EU distribution rights for an app on the Alt Store

249 points by net01 1y ago

StopDisinfo910 1y ago
The EU already told Apple in April 25 that the preliminary findings regarding the conditions they impose on alt stores and developers distributing through alt stores are in violation of the DMA. Apple fully knows they are looking forward to a huge fine. I guess they are banning a torrent app here to be able to tell: look the EU is sponsoring piracy. They are also trying to get Trump to intervene on their behalf obviously. Given how spineless the current European Commission is, that might even work. To my fellow European, my advice remains the same: boycott American companies, stop voting for parties affiliated with the EPP.
- net01 1y ago
  This is not a piracy app; it's a torrent client app. It's just used to share files. I use it to share my videos & photos of my cat. it would be nice if someone had a backbone and fought Apple like Epic's Tim Sweeney.
  - freedomben 1y ago
    You are of course correct, but you misunderstand the PR machine. Apple can easily claim they are combatting piracy, and 99.5% of all people will accept that as doctrine. The truth doesn't matter.
    - dkiebd 1y ago
      But people benefit from piracy, so I doubt people will support Apple here. Media companies on the other hand…
      - nicce 1y ago
        People benefit from robbery too. Words have still a meaning and we should at least try to word it in a way which sounds legal.
      - chii 1y ago
        > But people benefit from piracy the benefit is private. Nobody would publicly claim they support piracy, because it's too politically incorrect. So the PR machine doesn't have a hard job at all convincing law makers of a non-truth, despite privately that people would generally not agree with said non-truth.
        Jensson 1y ago
        > Nobody would publicly claim they support piracy, because it's too politically incorrect. Many in Europe do, there are even political parties for that.
  - bsimpson 1y ago
    Tim Sweeney's backbone is in whatever shape makes him the most money. He's an opportunist (and probably a narcissist), not a freedom fighter.
    - benoau 1y ago
      Banning apps like Kindle and Patreon from linking to their own payments should never have happened. Especially Patreon - Apple wrote a rule commandeering 30% of a then-five-year old app's revenue and coerced them into using IAP to get it, nobody should be supportive of this whatever Sweeney's shortcomings or motivations.
      - freejazz 1y ago
        Seems like you are having a different conversation: "it would be nice if someone had a backbone and fought Apple like Epic's Tim Sweeney."
        benoau 1y ago
        No I disagree that we need a "better" person to disrupt what Apple is doing, that's just shifting the goal posts to favor Apple doing it longer. The best person to do it is the one who did it.
        freejazz 1y ago
        Once again, not the proposition that was being offered. It's not that he's better. It was claimed he has a spine and it was pointed out that he doesn't. It's not a comment on if Apple is good or not. It's not a comment on whether or not there is someone better. It is a comment on Tim's motivations.
    - cmcaleer 1y ago
      Here's a question on expected value. Do you think Epic makes more money if: (a) they agree to Apple's demands and have Fortnite on the App Store during its peak of popularity for years and eat the junk fees on mtx or (b) they fight an extremely costly lawsuit, which they have no guarantee of winning, for years, during which time Fortnite could leave the cultural zeitgeist (which it to some extent has) and maybe eventually one day get closer to 95% of mtx money? If you think it's not (a), I would love to know why. Sweeney seems not that motivated by money, he's already filthy rich.
  - immibis 1y ago
    Everyone and their dog knows that torrents are exclusively used for piracy. It's not true, of course, but everyone and their dog still knows it.
  - skwirl 1y ago
    Surely we all know that when we post or upvote comments like this that we are being incredibly disingenuous.
- bobajeff 1y ago
  As an American I would advise people to, when practical, boycott these companies, regardless of their country of origin, when they do things anti-consumer/anti-ownership. But more importantly we should demand our communities/governments to break these companies up and take more measures to reduce their power to do these things.
- stockresearcher 1y ago
  > The EU already told Apple in April 25 that the preliminary findings regarding the conditions they impose on alt stores and developers distributing through alt stores are in violation of the DMA. Preliminary findings from the European Commission are legally meaningless. The EU court of justice has annulled fines against tech companies before, ruling that the EC has not done enough of an investigation. For example, here is a ruling that confirms that the one billion Euro fine against Intel should have been annulled because the EC did not do a satisfactory investigation: https://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/2024-10/cp240185en.pdf https://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/202...
  - StopDisinfo910 1y ago
    It’s not meaningless at all. It means a fine is likely to come unless Apple has a very good answer. I understand your confusion but the EU is still a liberal democracy. Obviously we have appeal courts and some judgements are overturned. One being overturned concerning Intel has absolutely no bearing on what will happen in the Apple case. It’s the General Court which cancelled the Intel fine by the way. The Court of Justice is the next in line jurisdiction and confirmed the court decision after the Commission appealed.
ktallett 1y ago
I mean it has already been shown that needing a license to sell apps in an alternate store is in violation. I feel we need to be moving to non-punative fines for every day Apple violate.
- net01 1y ago
  This would be a perfect example to show to an EU politician.
  - spacebanana7 1y ago
    Sadly not - the lobbyists of the media industry would very much support Apple in this case. That carries a lot of weight for EU politicians.
    - lokar 1y ago
      There is a fair chance apple blocked the app in response to legal or political pressure from the EU.
      - agos 1y ago
        I would say the chance is very, very slim.
        lokar 1y ago
        I had the impression that many governments have a very pro-IP stance and little concern about blocking access to
        agos 1y ago
        oh, they absolutely do. But in my experience when they block access to something, they do it very publicly, not by backdoor deals with gatekeepers
bitpush 1y ago
Two days, two app store news. Yesterday it was Google and there was a large discussion. And today it is Apple, and I'm curious to see whether HN folks feel the similar passion. Historically, people pick up pitch forks for Google but give Apple a pass - so looking forward to the conversation here.
- net01 1y ago
  the developer had his app distribution rights removed in mid-July. TorrentFreak are the first to respond to our emails, Getting the news out is hard. (i am the one who alerted Ernesto, but i had no input in the article.)
- mijoharas 1y ago
  What was the other app store news?
  - net01 1y ago
    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45017028 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45017028
- politelemon 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - techjamie 1y ago
    I would love to see iOS be unchained for users to do what they want with it. But in realistic terms, buying an iPhone comes with the baggage that you are basically opting into Apple owning your device for you. So when stuff like this happens, it's kind of the expected outcome. Cue the lawnmower analogy.
  - jchw 1y ago
    For as long as I've been on Hacker News (2015?) there has been an obvious Apple bias. I don't really think that has changed that much. I always thought a lot of developers who were big Apple fans would fall off as Apple started pushing stuff like the Mac App Store and Gatekeeper on macOS, but no. At this point I am unsure there is much Apple could do to lose support of its biggest supporters. All Apple needs is some plausible excuse for why something is a good idea and people take it largely at face value. (At least, Apple never really seems to lose much supporters in the long run.) I pay too much attention to comment votes and replies on this website, probably mainly because all of the other discussion forums I used to go on are dead. But in threads about Apple, I kind of get the idea of what the votes really represent.
thedevilslawyer 1y ago
This fuckery needs to stop. Apply the 10 percent revenue penalty and slap a 38B fine.
- guywithahat 1y ago
  You do realize this is for a torrent app, right? Do you think the EU will slap a 38B fine on Apple because it's not allowing users to access movies illegally or download malware?
  - borski 1y ago
    Torrents are used legally all the time; it’s not always piracy.
    - guywithahat 1y ago
      Then I'm sure the developer of the app would be happy to screen for copyrighted content or malware, and attempt to remove it. It wouldn't even be hard, they could just poke a lightweight LLM at it and have the llm make the call, and maybe add a submission field to report illegal content.
      - microtonal 1y ago
        Why? Should ISPs start MITM traffic? Internet connections can be used for downloading illegal content after all.
        guywithahat 1y ago
        That’s what we’re preventing here. The agreement is ISP’s/infrastructure gets the clear, and applications need to regulate the content they host. If they stop regulating content, ISP’s will
        akimbostrawman 1y ago
andrewmcwatters 1y ago
I have been collecting stories like these at https://github.com/andrewmcwattersandco/app-store-rejections https://github.com/andrewmcwattersandco/app-store-rejections and will probably add this one, too. However, this is beyond Apple’s own App Store, which is sort of interesting. I think it still highlights the dangers of App stores, though.
- net01 1y ago
  The dream would be Apple letting https://github.com/ImranR98/Obtainium https://github.com/ImranR98/Obtainium (a decentralized app store 4 Android) on IOS
- varispeed 1y ago
  It highlights the fact that regulators are scamming the tax payers. They take money to protect us from such predatory behaviour and then sit on their hands and maybe do a token "fine" from time to time. Appaling.
dns_snek 1y ago
Exactly as predicted [0] and ahead of schedule. I didn't think they would be so bold while the EU investigations are still pending. Can we now revisit the arguments that people were making in those threads to defend this? [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39137090 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39137090
- mmastrac 1y ago
  They aren't going to listen unless execs start going to jail.
  - betaby 1y ago
    Who precisely should go to jail in this particular case?
    - Perz1val 1y ago
      Well, pick any of them, it'll work
      - geodel 1y ago
        Nah, just shoot them dead in encounters. Commercial cases, criminal cases all the same. EU need to learn from HN law experts. One can see world wide where jail time or extra judicial punishments has made business people most upstanding citizens.
      - betaby 1y ago
        I would start with EU citizens first. Couple of telecom CEOs come to mind, notably ones from the ISP implementing censorship even without court orders and threatening security researchers for (responsibly) disclosing vulnerabilities in their networks. EU folks should start looking around first, where they clearly have power to do so.
        dvfjsdhgfv 1y ago
kmeisthax 1y ago
Between this and Google announcing their move to a similar system for controlling third-party Android developers, I feel like FAANG is declaring itself above the law. Apple's prior approach to DMA compliance was to loudly grumble about it, but do the absolute bare minimum to kinda sorta comply if you squint at it. The whole idea with iOS notarization was that Apple was ceding control over iOS apps for editorial but not technical reasons; i.e. that they'd only ever refuse to sign an app because it broke iOS, used private APIs, or was literal malware. Not because they didn't like it. This scheme is already kind of dubious, if OAMA had passed it would definitely be illegal in the US, but I'm told EU regulators enforce the law differently than in the US[0]. Now Google wants to adopt the same system Apple has just proven doesn't work. I hope the EU regulators are not only listening, but willing to actually fight this. The related debacle of digital services taxes would indicate that the EU is spineless enough that Apple thinks the DMA is already unenforceable enough to start killing apps they don't like. [0] US regulation is something like "if we say jump, each foot must leave the ground for at least 0.8 seconds and clear at least 20cm off the ground", and then people figure out you can just lift one foot at a time and still comply. EU regulation is more like "if we say jump, you must jump", and then the regulators decide whether or not you made a good-faith attempt at jumping. So no stupid loopholes like lifting one foot at a time, but the regulators can be very subjective as to if you jumped high enough or not.
net01 1y ago
Consider donating to the developer ( he is a solo dev ) https://github.com/XITRIX/iTorrent#donate-for-donuts https://github.com/XITRIX/iTorrent#donate-for-donuts The developer had his app distribution rights removed in mid-July. i am the one who reached out to TorrentFreak; they were the first to respond. (The Verge /MacRumors/9to5Mac ignored me) (i had no input in the article.)
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
hk1337 1y ago
> This app using Firebase Analytics and so it collects next information from your device: I wonder how the data compares to the data Apple could send and do they respect when user's have opted to NOT send app developers data? I know when you first sign on to the App Store it prompts you about 2 things, sending Apple data, and sending app developers data. *EDIT* I know it's not fair and doesn't mean they're all bad but given the current circumstances in the world, I am going to be quite skeptical of developers with .ru in their email or anything else.
reorder9695 1y ago
We need a law saying users can run exactly what software they want on their own devices. If people are worried about malware or whatever, have the apps be optionally notarised and big warning's if they aren't. I do not want any company or government telling me what software can run on my devices that I paid for and I own. This is clearly against the spirit of the DMA.
- betaby 1y ago
  > We need a law saying users can run exactly what software they want on their own devices. That's absolutely the opposite of how most of EU operates. See every single EU banking application. You can't run on rooted Android. Yes, EU absolutely should focus of their own tech first and foremost.
  - lawlessone 1y ago
    Banking isn't the same as everything else.
    - MaxikCZ 1y ago
      you could argue about anything that it isn't the same as everything else.
  - hdra 1y ago
    is that because of a regulation? coz where I live there is no such regulation, but banks still checks for root because of the support load concern
    - NewJazz 1y ago
      There's a difference between checking for root and checking for non default operating systems.
    - 2rsf 1y ago
      I suppose the regulation will not mention "rooted devices" but will talk about the bank's obligation for risks and mitigations
evanjrowley 1y ago
Every time I am tempted to switch to iPhone, it does not take long for me to remember that Apple is a hostile enemy. FWIW, I get tempted to switch when my Android starts feeling like it works for Google and not for me. The advantage of the iPhone is that it works for nobody.
- preisschild 1y ago
  You can always install a de-googled version of Android, such as GrapheneOS.
  - betaby 1y ago
    And then you won't be able run your bank app.
    - Zak 1y ago
      Depending on what your bank's app actually does, that might not be a big problem. If it is, there's a good chance LineageOS with root and Play Integrity Fix will work, at least it's been working for me for years.
      - patrakov 1y ago
        It does not matter whether it works. It is a contract violation and, for some banks, a reason to debank you if found - check the bank app's usage terms and conditions.
    - miloignis 1y ago
      I mentioned this yesterday on the Google only allowing verified developers story, but my banking app works fine on GrapheneOS, as do many others. There is a crowd sourced list of their status here: https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compatibility-with-grapheneos/ https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compa...
    - theandrewbailey 1y ago
CharlesW 1y ago
It’s surprising that anyone would think EU politicians might punish Apple for deplatforming a single BitTorrent app. Surely those politicians aren’t dense enough to believe users are relying on their phones to distribute Linux ISOs. iTorrent's ability to play while "sharing" was the bridge too far. There are plenty of players for personal media in the App Store (Plex, Jellyfin, etc.), but as a BitTorrent client it's clear that its primary purpose was to play media that was vanishingly unlikely to be the user's. It also didn’t help that AltStore PAL regularly spotlighted these apps, basically taunting corpos and eurocrats alike. On the bright side, qBitControl won’t be affected, since it isn’t a BitTorrent client itself but merely a remote for qBittorrent.
- net01 1y ago
  i use it to share pictures from my NAS to my phone. And play video from it. Also, in Belgium, it's completely legal to rip and share ( within family circle ) copyrighted content.
  - CharlesW 1y ago
    This is an unusual (and risky) choice for most people, since BitTorrent is designed for swarm distribution, and ISPs generally don't look kindly on subscribers seeding torrents on their networks. I think it's safe to say that 99.99% of people use options like DLNA/UPnP, Plex, Jellyfin, or simple SMB/NFS shares for personal media sharing.
- dns_snek 1y ago
  The fact that they retain the technical capability to deplatform apps outside their app store is a violation of the DMA. It would be surprising if the EU they didn't hit Apple with billions in fines for the most obvious form of malicious non-compliance after going through all that effort of passing the regulations.
  - CharlesW 1y ago
    > The fact that they retain the technical capability to deplatform apps outside their app store is a violation of the DMA. Not in general, and courts would have to decide whether it's a violation in this specific case. The DMA doesn't force Apple to platform apps used primarily for piracy, it just requires that they be able to justify restrictions and keep them as narrow as possible. De-platforming a specific app is about as narrow as it gets. Also, it's arguable that the DSA (Digital Services Act), which is just as applicable, actually compels Apple to de-platform this app. The DMA is a competition law, and allowing an app whose primary purpose is distribution of infringing content undermines fair competition among legitimate content providers.
theyinwhy 1y ago
Next on the bucket list: ban all LLM apps for violating copyrights, including respective iOS functionality.
guywithahat 1y ago
> This allows for easier access to software that's typically prohibited by Apple, including the popular iTorrent BitTorrent client. Just as the regulators planned, I'm sure. I really doubt anyone will have luck getting apple to approve an app which is so often used to distribute copyright content and malware, and I doubt the EU is going to fight for people to be allowed to download movies illegally
devinprater 1y ago
I play video games through emulation and using vision LLM's and OCR to tell me what's going on in a particular moment. Only Google employees get to use Astra right now. But I can't play anything passed PS1 and PSP with the most accessible mobile OS, iOS, because Apple needs Safari to win so no JIT for other apps. But at least on Android I can play PS2 and get TalkBack to describe the screen. https://photos.app.goo.gl/QPJmj2HmRTy7Zv3L8 https://photos.app.goo.gl/QPJmj2HmRTy7Zv3L8
rs186 1y ago
Coming to an Android phone near you next year. Yay!
h4kunamata 1y ago
To be honest, I am tired of seeing people complaining and yet using, buying Apple's goods. So why are even complaining for?? We all know that the current Apple will go until the last consequence before reverting anything. If you continue using their devices, you are agreeing with their practices. Apple business model is no longer based on the sales of hardware as it tanked, but 30% cut from the Apple Store. Thanks to Epic, that income has been severely affected making it very easy to hit Apple where it hurts: Their pocket. Apple will never listen while folks keep using their services, buying new iPhone that is just the same crappy year after year.
gman83 1y ago
Wait, there are no torrent applications available for iOS? That's crazy. I use LibreTorrent on Android all the time.
tempodox 1y ago
This seems to be another case of malicious compliance. What’s the point of an alternative app store when Apple can block every single app?
net01 1y ago
UPDATE Update August 28: A day after publication, Apple informed us that the distribution rights (notarization) were revoked due to sanctions-related rules. “Notarization for this app was removed in order to comply with government sanctions-related rules in various jurisdictions. We have communicated this to the developer,” Apple told us. No further context was provided, but the developer purportedly had a Russian developer account, despite living in Malta.
- NotPractical 1y ago
  Pitiful response with no specifics, as usual.
selinkocalar 1y ago
This is exactly why alternative app stores matter. Apple's control over iOS app distribution has always been too centralized. The EU's Digital Markets Act is forcing some competition, but Apple is clearly going to make alternative distribution as difficult as possible within the legal boundaries. Developers need options. A single company shouldn't control access to billions of users' devices.

249 points by net01 1y ago

The EU already told Apple in April 25 that the preliminary findings regarding the conditions they impose on alt stores and developers distributing through alt stores are in violation of the DMA. Apple fully knows they are looking forward to a huge fine. I guess they are banning a torrent app here to be able to tell: look the EU is sponsoring piracy. They are also trying to get Trump to intervene on their behalf obviously. Given how spineless the current European Commission is, that might even work. To my fellow European, my advice remains the same: boycott American companies, stop voting for parties affiliated with the EPP.

net01 1y ago
This is not a piracy app; it's a torrent client app. It's just used to share files. I use it to share my videos & photos of my cat. it would be nice if someone had a backbone and fought Apple like Epic's Tim Sweeney.
- freedomben 1y ago
  You are of course correct, but you misunderstand the PR machine. Apple can easily claim they are combatting piracy, and 99.5% of all people will accept that as doctrine. The truth doesn't matter.
  - dkiebd 1y ago
    But people benefit from piracy, so I doubt people will support Apple here. Media companies on the other hand…
    - nicce 1y ago
      People benefit from robbery too. Words have still a meaning and we should at least try to word it in a way which sounds legal.
    - chii 1y ago
      > But people benefit from piracy the benefit is private. Nobody would publicly claim they support piracy, because it's too politically incorrect. So the PR machine doesn't have a hard job at all convincing law makers of a non-truth, despite privately that people would generally not agree with said non-truth.
      - Jensson 1y ago
        > Nobody would publicly claim they support piracy, because it's too politically incorrect. Many in Europe do, there are even political parties for that.
- bsimpson 1y ago
  Tim Sweeney's backbone is in whatever shape makes him the most money. He's an opportunist (and probably a narcissist), not a freedom fighter.
  - benoau 1y ago
    Banning apps like Kindle and Patreon from linking to their own payments should never have happened. Especially Patreon - Apple wrote a rule commandeering 30% of a then-five-year old app's revenue and coerced them into using IAP to get it, nobody should be supportive of this whatever Sweeney's shortcomings or motivations.
    - freejazz 1y ago
      Seems like you are having a different conversation: "it would be nice if someone had a backbone and fought Apple like Epic's Tim Sweeney."
      - benoau 1y ago
        No I disagree that we need a "better" person to disrupt what Apple is doing, that's just shifting the goal posts to favor Apple doing it longer. The best person to do it is the one who did it.
        freejazz 1y ago
        Once again, not the proposition that was being offered. It's not that he's better. It was claimed he has a spine and it was pointed out that he doesn't. It's not a comment on if Apple is good or not. It's not a comment on whether or not there is someone better. It is a comment on Tim's motivations.
  - cmcaleer 1y ago
    Here's a question on expected value. Do you think Epic makes more money if: (a) they agree to Apple's demands and have Fortnite on the App Store during its peak of popularity for years and eat the junk fees on mtx or (b) they fight an extremely costly lawsuit, which they have no guarantee of winning, for years, during which time Fortnite could leave the cultural zeitgeist (which it to some extent has) and maybe eventually one day get closer to 95% of mtx money? If you think it's not (a), I would love to know why. Sweeney seems not that motivated by money, he's already filthy rich.
- immibis 1y ago
  Everyone and their dog knows that torrents are exclusively used for piracy. It's not true, of course, but everyone and their dog still knows it.
- skwirl 1y ago
  Surely we all know that when we post or upvote comments like this that we are being incredibly disingenuous.
bobajeff 1y ago
As an American I would advise people to, when practical, boycott these companies, regardless of their country of origin, when they do things anti-consumer/anti-ownership. But more importantly we should demand our communities/governments to break these companies up and take more measures to reduce their power to do these things.
stockresearcher 1y ago
> The EU already told Apple in April 25 that the preliminary findings regarding the conditions they impose on alt stores and developers distributing through alt stores are in violation of the DMA. Preliminary findings from the European Commission are legally meaningless. The EU court of justice has annulled fines against tech companies before, ruling that the EC has not done enough of an investigation. For example, here is a ruling that confirms that the one billion Euro fine against Intel should have been annulled because the EC did not do a satisfactory investigation: https://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/2024-10/cp240185en.pdf https://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/202...
- StopDisinfo910 1y ago
  It’s not meaningless at all. It means a fine is likely to come unless Apple has a very good answer. I understand your confusion but the EU is still a liberal democracy. Obviously we have appeal courts and some judgements are overturned. One being overturned concerning Intel has absolutely no bearing on what will happen in the Apple case. It’s the General Court which cancelled the Intel fine by the way. The Court of Justice is the next in line jurisdiction and confirmed the court decision after the Commission appealed.

ktallett 1y ago

I mean it has already been shown that needing a license to sell apps in an alternate store is in violation. I feel we need to be moving to non-punative fines for every day Apple violate.

net01 1y ago
This would be a perfect example to show to an EU politician.
- spacebanana7 1y ago
  Sadly not - the lobbyists of the media industry would very much support Apple in this case. That carries a lot of weight for EU politicians.
  - lokar 1y ago
    There is a fair chance apple blocked the app in response to legal or political pressure from the EU.
    - agos 1y ago
      I would say the chance is very, very slim.
      - lokar 1y ago
        I had the impression that many governments have a very pro-IP stance and little concern about blocking access to
        agos 1y ago
        oh, they absolutely do. But in my experience when they block access to something, they do it very publicly, not by backdoor deals with gatekeepers

bitpush 1y ago

Two days, two app store news. Yesterday it was Google and there was a large discussion. And today it is Apple, and I'm curious to see whether HN folks feel the similar passion. Historically, people pick up pitch forks for Google but give Apple a pass - so looking forward to the conversation here.

net01 1y ago
the developer had his app distribution rights removed in mid-July. TorrentFreak are the first to respond to our emails, Getting the news out is hard. (i am the one who alerted Ernesto, but i had no input in the article.)
mijoharas 1y ago
What was the other app store news?
- net01 1y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45017028 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45017028
politelemon 1y ago
[flagged]
- techjamie 1y ago
  I would love to see iOS be unchained for users to do what they want with it. But in realistic terms, buying an iPhone comes with the baggage that you are basically opting into Apple owning your device for you. So when stuff like this happens, it's kind of the expected outcome. Cue the lawnmower analogy.
- jchw 1y ago
  For as long as I've been on Hacker News (2015?) there has been an obvious Apple bias. I don't really think that has changed that much. I always thought a lot of developers who were big Apple fans would fall off as Apple started pushing stuff like the Mac App Store and Gatekeeper on macOS, but no. At this point I am unsure there is much Apple could do to lose support of its biggest supporters. All Apple needs is some plausible excuse for why something is a good idea and people take it largely at face value. (At least, Apple never really seems to lose much supporters in the long run.) I pay too much attention to comment votes and replies on this website, probably mainly because all of the other discussion forums I used to go on are dead. But in threads about Apple, I kind of get the idea of what the votes really represent.

thedevilslawyer 1y ago

This fuckery needs to stop. Apply the 10 percent revenue penalty and slap a 38B fine.

guywithahat 1y ago
You do realize this is for a torrent app, right? Do you think the EU will slap a 38B fine on Apple because it's not allowing users to access movies illegally or download malware?
- borski 1y ago
  Torrents are used legally all the time; it’s not always piracy.
  - guywithahat 1y ago
    Then I'm sure the developer of the app would be happy to screen for copyrighted content or malware, and attempt to remove it. It wouldn't even be hard, they could just poke a lightweight LLM at it and have the llm make the call, and maybe add a submission field to report illegal content.
    - microtonal 1y ago
      Why? Should ISPs start MITM traffic? Internet connections can be used for downloading illegal content after all.
      - guywithahat 1y ago
        That’s what we’re preventing here. The agreement is ISP’s/infrastructure gets the clear, and applications need to regulate the content they host. If they stop regulating content, ISP’s will
        akimbostrawman 1y ago

andrewmcwatters 1y ago

I have been collecting stories like these at https://github.com/andrewmcwattersandco/app-store-rejections https://github.com/andrewmcwattersandco/app-store-rejections and will probably add this one, too. However, this is beyond Apple’s own App Store, which is sort of interesting. I think it still highlights the dangers of App stores, though.

net01 1y ago
The dream would be Apple letting https://github.com/ImranR98/Obtainium https://github.com/ImranR98/Obtainium (a decentralized app store 4 Android) on IOS
varispeed 1y ago
It highlights the fact that regulators are scamming the tax payers. They take money to protect us from such predatory behaviour and then sit on their hands and maybe do a token "fine" from time to time. Appaling.

dns_snek 1y ago

Exactly as predicted [0] and ahead of schedule. I didn't think they would be so bold while the EU investigations are still pending. Can we now revisit the arguments that people were making in those threads to defend this? [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39137090 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39137090

mmastrac 1y ago
They aren't going to listen unless execs start going to jail.
- betaby 1y ago
  Who precisely should go to jail in this particular case?
  - Perz1val 1y ago
    Well, pick any of them, it'll work
    - geodel 1y ago
      Nah, just shoot them dead in encounters. Commercial cases, criminal cases all the same. EU need to learn from HN law experts. One can see world wide where jail time or extra judicial punishments has made business people most upstanding citizens.
    - betaby 1y ago
      I would start with EU citizens first. Couple of telecom CEOs come to mind, notably ones from the ISP implementing censorship even without court orders and threatening security researchers for (responsibly) disclosing vulnerabilities in their networks. EU folks should start looking around first, where they clearly have power to do so.
      - dvfjsdhgfv 1y ago

kmeisthax 1y ago

Between this and Google announcing their move to a similar system for controlling third-party Android developers, I feel like FAANG is declaring itself above the law. Apple's prior approach to DMA compliance was to loudly grumble about it, but do the absolute bare minimum to kinda sorta comply if you squint at it. The whole idea with iOS notarization was that Apple was ceding control over iOS apps for editorial but not technical reasons; i.e. that they'd only ever refuse to sign an app because it broke iOS, used private APIs, or was literal malware. Not because they didn't like it. This scheme is already kind of dubious, if OAMA had passed it would definitely be illegal in the US, but I'm told EU regulators enforce the law differently than in the US[0]. Now Google wants to adopt the same system Apple has just proven doesn't work. I hope the EU regulators are not only listening, but willing to actually fight this. The related debacle of digital services taxes would indicate that the EU is spineless enough that Apple thinks the DMA is already unenforceable enough to start killing apps they don't like. [0] US regulation is something like "if we say jump, each foot must leave the ground for at least 0.8 seconds and clear at least 20cm off the ground", and then people figure out you can just lift one foot at a time and still comply. EU regulation is more like "if we say jump, you must jump", and then the regulators decide whether or not you made a good-faith attempt at jumping. So no stupid loopholes like lifting one foot at a time, but the regulators can be very subjective as to if you jumped high enough or not.

net01 1y ago

Consider donating to the developer ( he is a solo dev ) https://github.com/XITRIX/iTorrent#donate-for-donuts https://github.com/XITRIX/iTorrent#donate-for-donuts The developer had his app distribution rights removed in mid-July. i am the one who reached out to TorrentFreak; they were the first to respond. (The Verge /MacRumors/9to5Mac ignored me) (i had no input in the article.)

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

hk1337 1y ago

> This app using Firebase Analytics and so it collects next information from your device: I wonder how the data compares to the data Apple could send and do they respect when user's have opted to NOT send app developers data? I know when you first sign on to the App Store it prompts you about 2 things, sending Apple data, and sending app developers data. *EDIT* I know it's not fair and doesn't mean they're all bad but given the current circumstances in the world, I am going to be quite skeptical of developers with .ru in their email or anything else.

reorder9695 1y ago

We need a law saying users can run exactly what software they want on their own devices. If people are worried about malware or whatever, have the apps be optionally notarised and big warning's if they aren't. I do not want any company or government telling me what software can run on my devices that I paid for and I own. This is clearly against the spirit of the DMA.

betaby 1y ago
> We need a law saying users can run exactly what software they want on their own devices. That's absolutely the opposite of how most of EU operates. See every single EU banking application. You can't run on rooted Android. Yes, EU absolutely should focus of their own tech first and foremost.
- lawlessone 1y ago
  Banking isn't the same as everything else.
  - MaxikCZ 1y ago
    you could argue about anything that it isn't the same as everything else.
- hdra 1y ago
  is that because of a regulation? coz where I live there is no such regulation, but banks still checks for root because of the support load concern
  - NewJazz 1y ago
    There's a difference between checking for root and checking for non default operating systems.
  - 2rsf 1y ago
    I suppose the regulation will not mention "rooted devices" but will talk about the bank's obligation for risks and mitigations

evanjrowley 1y ago

Every time I am tempted to switch to iPhone, it does not take long for me to remember that Apple is a hostile enemy. FWIW, I get tempted to switch when my Android starts feeling like it works for Google and not for me. The advantage of the iPhone is that it works for nobody.

preisschild 1y ago
You can always install a de-googled version of Android, such as GrapheneOS.
- betaby 1y ago
  And then you won't be able run your bank app.
  - Zak 1y ago
    Depending on what your bank's app actually does, that might not be a big problem. If it is, there's a good chance LineageOS with root and Play Integrity Fix will work, at least it's been working for me for years.
    - patrakov 1y ago
      It does not matter whether it works. It is a contract violation and, for some banks, a reason to debank you if found - check the bank app's usage terms and conditions.
  - miloignis 1y ago
    I mentioned this yesterday on the Google only allowing verified developers story, but my banking app works fine on GrapheneOS, as do many others. There is a crowd sourced list of their status here: https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compatibility-with-grapheneos/ https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compa...
  - theandrewbailey 1y ago

CharlesW 1y ago

It’s surprising that anyone would think EU politicians might punish Apple for deplatforming a single BitTorrent app. Surely those politicians aren’t dense enough to believe users are relying on their phones to distribute Linux ISOs. iTorrent's ability to play while "sharing" was the bridge too far. There are plenty of players for personal media in the App Store (Plex, Jellyfin, etc.), but as a BitTorrent client it's clear that its primary purpose was to play media that was vanishingly unlikely to be the user's. It also didn’t help that AltStore PAL regularly spotlighted these apps, basically taunting corpos and eurocrats alike. On the bright side, qBitControl won’t be affected, since it isn’t a BitTorrent client itself but merely a remote for qBittorrent.

net01 1y ago
i use it to share pictures from my NAS to my phone. And play video from it. Also, in Belgium, it's completely legal to rip and share ( within family circle ) copyrighted content.
- CharlesW 1y ago
  This is an unusual (and risky) choice for most people, since BitTorrent is designed for swarm distribution, and ISPs generally don't look kindly on subscribers seeding torrents on their networks. I think it's safe to say that 99.99% of people use options like DLNA/UPnP, Plex, Jellyfin, or simple SMB/NFS shares for personal media sharing.
dns_snek 1y ago
The fact that they retain the technical capability to deplatform apps outside their app store is a violation of the DMA. It would be surprising if the EU they didn't hit Apple with billions in fines for the most obvious form of malicious non-compliance after going through all that effort of passing the regulations.
- CharlesW 1y ago
  > The fact that they retain the technical capability to deplatform apps outside their app store is a violation of the DMA. Not in general, and courts would have to decide whether it's a violation in this specific case. The DMA doesn't force Apple to platform apps used primarily for piracy, it just requires that they be able to justify restrictions and keep them as narrow as possible. De-platforming a specific app is about as narrow as it gets. Also, it's arguable that the DSA (Digital Services Act), which is just as applicable, actually compels Apple to de-platform this app. The DMA is a competition law, and allowing an app whose primary purpose is distribution of infringing content undermines fair competition among legitimate content providers.

theyinwhy 1y ago

Next on the bucket list: ban all LLM apps for violating copyrights, including respective iOS functionality.

guywithahat 1y ago

> This allows for easier access to software that's typically prohibited by Apple, including the popular iTorrent BitTorrent client. Just as the regulators planned, I'm sure. I really doubt anyone will have luck getting apple to approve an app which is so often used to distribute copyright content and malware, and I doubt the EU is going to fight for people to be allowed to download movies illegally

devinprater 1y ago

I play video games through emulation and using vision LLM's and OCR to tell me what's going on in a particular moment. Only Google employees get to use Astra right now. But I can't play anything passed PS1 and PSP with the most accessible mobile OS, iOS, because Apple needs Safari to win so no JIT for other apps. But at least on Android I can play PS2 and get TalkBack to describe the screen. https://photos.app.goo.gl/QPJmj2HmRTy7Zv3L8 https://photos.app.goo.gl/QPJmj2HmRTy7Zv3L8

rs186 1y ago

Coming to an Android phone near you next year. Yay!

h4kunamata 1y ago

To be honest, I am tired of seeing people complaining and yet using, buying Apple's goods. So why are even complaining for?? We all know that the current Apple will go until the last consequence before reverting anything. If you continue using their devices, you are agreeing with their practices. Apple business model is no longer based on the sales of hardware as it tanked, but 30% cut from the Apple Store. Thanks to Epic, that income has been severely affected making it very easy to hit Apple where it hurts: Their pocket. Apple will never listen while folks keep using their services, buying new iPhone that is just the same crappy year after year.

gman83 1y ago

Wait, there are no torrent applications available for iOS? That's crazy. I use LibreTorrent on Android all the time.

tempodox 1y ago

This seems to be another case of malicious compliance. What’s the point of an alternative app store when Apple can block every single app?

net01 1y ago

UPDATE Update August 28: A day after publication, Apple informed us that the distribution rights (notarization) were revoked due to sanctions-related rules. “Notarization for this app was removed in order to comply with government sanctions-related rules in various jurisdictions. We have communicated this to the developer,” Apple told us. No further context was provided, but the developer purportedly had a Russian developer account, despite living in Malta.

NotPractical 1y ago
Pitiful response with no specifics, as usual.

selinkocalar 1y ago

This is exactly why alternative app stores matter. Apple's control over iOS app distribution has always been too centralized. The EU's Digital Markets Act is forcing some competition, but Apple is clearly going to make alternative distribution as difficult as possible within the legal boundaries. Developers need options. A single company shouldn't control access to billions of users' devices.