8 ms·

Edit to add: according to Sam Altman in the reddit AMA they un-deprecated it based on popular demand. https://old.reddit.com/r/ChatGPT/comments/1mkae1l/gpt5_ama

by andy99 1y ago

Edit to add: according to Sam Altman in the reddit AMA they un-deprecated it based on popular demand. https://old.reddit.com/r/ChatGPT/comments/1mkae1l/gpt5_ama_with_openais_sam_altman_and_some_of_the/n7nelhh/ https://old.reddit.com/r/ChatGPT/comments/1mkae1l/gpt5_ama_w... I wonder how much of the '5 release was about cutting costs vs making it outwardly better. I'm speculating that one reason they'd deprecate older models is because 5 materially cheaper to run? Would have been better to just jack up the price on the others. For companies that extensively test the apps they're building (which should be everyone) swapping out a model is a lot of work.

sebzim4500 1y ago
Are they deprecating the older models in the API? I don't see any indication of that in the docs.
dbreunig 1y ago
I’m wondering that too. I think better routers will allow for more efficiency (a good thing!) at the cost of giving up control. I think OpenAI attempted to mitigate this shift with the modes and tones they introduced, but there’s always going to be a slice that’s unaddressed. (For example, I’d still use dalle 2 if I could.)
waldrews 1y ago
Doesn't look like they blew up the API use cases, just the consumer UI access. I wouldn't be surprised if they allow it again, hidden behind a setting (along with allowing the different routed GPT5 levels to be in the selector).
- andy99 1y ago
  Ah ok, that's an important distinction. Seems much less a big deal then - or at least a consumer issue rather than a business one. Having never really used chatgpt (but used the apis a lot), I'm actually surprised that chat users would care. There are cost tradeoffs for the different models when building on them, but for chatgpt, it's less clear to me why one would move between selecting different models.
  - svachalek 1y ago
    Not everyone is an engineer. There's a substantial population that were selecting for maximum sycophancy.
  - dragonwriter 1y ago
    > There are cost tradeoffs for the different models when building on them, but for chatgpt, it's less clear to me why one would move between selecting different models. The same tradeoffs (except cost, because that's roled into the plan not a factor when selecting on the interface) exist on ChatGPT, which is an app built on the underlying model like any other. So getting rid of models that are stronger in some areas when adding a new one that is cheaper (presuming API costs also reflect cost to provide) has the same kinds of impacts on existing ChatGPT users established usages as it would have on a businesses established apps except that the ChatGPT users don't see a cost savings along with any disruption in how they were used to things working.
  - cgriswald 1y ago
    Lower tiers have limited uses for some models.
  - Espressosaurus 1y ago
    Different models have different (daily/weekly) limits and are better at different things. o3 was for a self-contained problem I wanted to have chewed on for 15 minutes and then spit out a plausible solution (small weekly limit I think?) o4-mini for general coding (daily limits) o4-mini-high for coding when o4-mini isn't doing the job (weekly limits) 4o for pooping on (unlimited, but IMO only marginally useful)
- waynesonfire 1y ago
  I have a feeling that the chatgpt ui does some behind-the scenes tuning as well--hidden prompt engineering if you will. I migrated to the api and 4o still seems different. Most obvious, I don't get the acks that make me feel like I should run for president. Even ChatGPT 5 confirmed this, why does the gpt-4o api not do this? ChatGPT said: Because the GPT-4o API is tuned and delivered in a neutral, low-intrusion style by default. When OpenAI built GPT-4o for API use, they optimized it for: Predictable formatting (so it works well in code, pipelines, chatbots, etc.) Minimal unsolicited chatter (no “Nice!” or “Great job!” unless explicitly prompted) Deterministic tone — so that two API calls with the same input produce consistent, professional output without extra filler. That’s different from the ChatGPT product experience, which has its own “assistant personality” layer that sometimes adds those rapport-building acknowledgements in casual conversation. In API mode, you’re the one defining the personality, so if you want that “Good! Looks like you’re digging in” style, you have to bake it into the system prompt, for example:
  - AlecSchueler 1y ago
    But it always gives answers like that for questions where it doesn't know the actual reason.
  - simonw 1y ago
    The GPT-4o you talk to through ChatGPT and the GPT-4o you access via the API are different models... but they're actually both available via the API. https://platform.openai.com/docs/models/gpt-4o https://platform.openai.com/docs/models/gpt-4o is gpt-4o in the API, also available as three date-stamped snapshots: gpt-4o-2024-11-20 and gpt-4o-2024-08-06 and gpt-4o-2024-05-13 - priced at $2.50/million input and $10.00/million output. https://platform.openai.com/docs/models/chatgpt-4o-latest https://platform.openai.com/docs/models/chatgpt-4o-latest is chatgpt-4o-latest in the API. This is the model used by ChatGPT 4o, and it doesn't provide date-stamped snapshots: the model is updated on a regular basis without warning. It costs $5/million input and $15/million output. If you use the same system prompt as ChatGPT (from one of the system prompt leaks) with that chatgpt-4o-latest alias you should theoretically get the same experience.
  - grues-dinner 1y ago
hinkley 1y ago
Margins are weird. You have a system that’s cheaper to maintain or sells for a little bit more and it cannibalizes its siblings due to concerns of opportunity cost and net profit. You can also go pretty far in the world before your pool of potential future customers is muddied up with disgruntled former customers. And there are more potential future customers overseas than there are pissed off exes at home so let’s expand into South America! Which of their other models can run well on the same gen of hardware?
corysama 1y ago
The vibe I'm getting from the Reddit community is that 5 is much less "Let's have a nice conversation for hours and hours" and much more "Let's get you a curt, targeted answer quickly." So, good for professionals who want to spend lots of money on AI to be more efficient at their jobs. And, bad for casuals who want to spend as little money as possible to use lots of datacenter time as their artificial buddy/therapist.
- mvieira38 1y ago
  Great for the environment as well and the financial future of the company. I can't see how this is a bad thing, some people really were just suffering from Proompt Disorder
- tonyhart7 1y ago
  seems like the machine is winning next war
- jelder 1y ago
  Well, good, because these things make bad friends and worse therapists.
  - moralestapia 1y ago
    I kind of agree with you as I wouldn't use LLMs for that. But also, one cannot speak for everybody, if it's useful for someone on that context, why's that an issue?
    - chowells 1y ago
      The issue is that people in general are very easy to fool into believing something harmful is helping them. If it was actually useful, it's not an issue. But just because someone believes it's useful doesn't mean it actually is.
    - saubeidl 1y ago
      Because it's probably not great for one's mental health to pretend a statistical model is ones friend?
jimbokun 1y ago
> For companies that extensively test the apps they're building (which should be everyone) swapping out a model is a lot of work. Yet another lesson in building your business on someone else's API.
dragonwriter 1y ago
> I wonder how much of the '5 release was about cutting costs vs making it outwardly better. I'm speculating that one reason they'd deprecate older models is because 5 materially cheaper to run? I mean, assuming the API pricing has some relation to OpenAI cost to provide (which is somewhat speculative, sure), that seems pretty well supported as a truth, if not necessarily the reason for the model being introduced: the models discontinued (“deprecated” implies entering a notice period for future discontinuation) from the ChatGPT interface are priced significantly higher than GPT-5 on the API. > For companies that extensively test the apps they're building (which should be everyone) swapping out a model is a lot of work. Who is building apps relying on the ChatGPT frontend as a model provider? Apps would normally depend on the OpenAI API, where the models are still available, but GPT-5 is added and cheaper.
- nickthegreek 1y ago
  > Who is building apps relying on the ChatGPT frontend as a model provider? Apps would normally depend on the OpenAI API, where the models are still available, but GPT-5 is added and cheaper. Always enjoy your comments dw, but on this one I disagree. Many non-technical people at my org use custom gpt's as "apps" to do some re-occuring tasks. Some of them have spent absurd time tweaking instructions and knowledge over and over. Also, when you create a custom gpt, you can specifically set the preferred model. This will no doubt change the behavior of those gpts. Ideally at the enterprise level, our admins would have a longer sunset on these models via web/app interface to ensure no hiccups.
- trashface 1y ago
  Maybe the true cost of GPT-5 is hidden, I tried to use the GPT-5 API and openai wanted me to do a biometric scan with my camera, yikes.
scarface_74 1y ago
Companies testing their apps would be using the API not the ChatGPT app. The models are still available via the API.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
kazinator 1y ago
> For companies that extensively test the apps they're building Test meaning what? Observe whatever surprise comes out the first time you run something and then write it down, to check that the same thing comes out tomorrow and the day after.
augergine 1y ago
[flagged]
- flappyeagle 1y ago
  What are you on about? What has dang done to hurt you
- speedylight 1y ago
  Man people would beg to differ, HN wields a lot of influence in the tech community!
- MatejKafka 1y ago
  Uh, what? Dang is an incredible moderator. I sure hope HN won't get any closer to Reddit, the discussions here tend to be much more interesting - if anything, mediocrity is the result of influx of Reddit users to HN.
  - LexiMax 1y ago
    There is a lot more groupthink and echo chamber behavior on HN compared to Reddit due to the way flagging works. For me, HN is unusable without using showdead and using the active front page so I can see what stories its userbase tried to flag off the normal front page. You can also say some pretty horrendous things on this site as long as you couch it in modest proposed-esque soft language. If I want to have a non-technical conversation with other human beings, Tildes blows the doors off of HN in the empathy department.
- iammrpayments 1y ago
  Bro thought he was posting on 4chan
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

by andy99 1y ago

sebzim4500 1y ago

Are they deprecating the older models in the API? I don't see any indication of that in the docs.

dbreunig 1y ago

I’m wondering that too. I think better routers will allow for more efficiency (a good thing!) at the cost of giving up control. I think OpenAI attempted to mitigate this shift with the modes and tones they introduced, but there’s always going to be a slice that’s unaddressed. (For example, I’d still use dalle 2 if I could.)

waldrews 1y ago

Doesn't look like they blew up the API use cases, just the consumer UI access. I wouldn't be surprised if they allow it again, hidden behind a setting (along with allowing the different routed GPT5 levels to be in the selector).

andy99 1y ago
Ah ok, that's an important distinction. Seems much less a big deal then - or at least a consumer issue rather than a business one. Having never really used chatgpt (but used the apis a lot), I'm actually surprised that chat users would care. There are cost tradeoffs for the different models when building on them, but for chatgpt, it's less clear to me why one would move between selecting different models.
- svachalek 1y ago
  Not everyone is an engineer. There's a substantial population that were selecting for maximum sycophancy.
- dragonwriter 1y ago
  > There are cost tradeoffs for the different models when building on them, but for chatgpt, it's less clear to me why one would move between selecting different models. The same tradeoffs (except cost, because that's roled into the plan not a factor when selecting on the interface) exist on ChatGPT, which is an app built on the underlying model like any other. So getting rid of models that are stronger in some areas when adding a new one that is cheaper (presuming API costs also reflect cost to provide) has the same kinds of impacts on existing ChatGPT users established usages as it would have on a businesses established apps except that the ChatGPT users don't see a cost savings along with any disruption in how they were used to things working.
- cgriswald 1y ago
  Lower tiers have limited uses for some models.
- Espressosaurus 1y ago
  Different models have different (daily/weekly) limits and are better at different things. o3 was for a self-contained problem I wanted to have chewed on for 15 minutes and then spit out a plausible solution (small weekly limit I think?) o4-mini for general coding (daily limits) o4-mini-high for coding when o4-mini isn't doing the job (weekly limits) 4o for pooping on (unlimited, but IMO only marginally useful)
waynesonfire 1y ago
I have a feeling that the chatgpt ui does some behind-the scenes tuning as well--hidden prompt engineering if you will. I migrated to the api and 4o still seems different. Most obvious, I don't get the acks that make me feel like I should run for president. Even ChatGPT 5 confirmed this, why does the gpt-4o api not do this? ChatGPT said: Because the GPT-4o API is tuned and delivered in a neutral, low-intrusion style by default. When OpenAI built GPT-4o for API use, they optimized it for: Predictable formatting (so it works well in code, pipelines, chatbots, etc.) Minimal unsolicited chatter (no “Nice!” or “Great job!” unless explicitly prompted) Deterministic tone — so that two API calls with the same input produce consistent, professional output without extra filler. That’s different from the ChatGPT product experience, which has its own “assistant personality” layer that sometimes adds those rapport-building acknowledgements in casual conversation. In API mode, you’re the one defining the personality, so if you want that “Good! Looks like you’re digging in” style, you have to bake it into the system prompt, for example:
- AlecSchueler 1y ago
  But it always gives answers like that for questions where it doesn't know the actual reason.
- simonw 1y ago
  The GPT-4o you talk to through ChatGPT and the GPT-4o you access via the API are different models... but they're actually both available via the API. https://platform.openai.com/docs/models/gpt-4o https://platform.openai.com/docs/models/gpt-4o is gpt-4o in the API, also available as three date-stamped snapshots: gpt-4o-2024-11-20 and gpt-4o-2024-08-06 and gpt-4o-2024-05-13 - priced at $2.50/million input and $10.00/million output. https://platform.openai.com/docs/models/chatgpt-4o-latest https://platform.openai.com/docs/models/chatgpt-4o-latest is chatgpt-4o-latest in the API. This is the model used by ChatGPT 4o, and it doesn't provide date-stamped snapshots: the model is updated on a regular basis without warning. It costs $5/million input and $15/million output. If you use the same system prompt as ChatGPT (from one of the system prompt leaks) with that chatgpt-4o-latest alias you should theoretically get the same experience.
- grues-dinner 1y ago

hinkley 1y ago

Margins are weird. You have a system that’s cheaper to maintain or sells for a little bit more and it cannibalizes its siblings due to concerns of opportunity cost and net profit. You can also go pretty far in the world before your pool of potential future customers is muddied up with disgruntled former customers. And there are more potential future customers overseas than there are pissed off exes at home so let’s expand into South America! Which of their other models can run well on the same gen of hardware?

corysama 1y ago

The vibe I'm getting from the Reddit community is that 5 is much less "Let's have a nice conversation for hours and hours" and much more "Let's get you a curt, targeted answer quickly." So, good for professionals who want to spend lots of money on AI to be more efficient at their jobs. And, bad for casuals who want to spend as little money as possible to use lots of datacenter time as their artificial buddy/therapist.

mvieira38 1y ago
Great for the environment as well and the financial future of the company. I can't see how this is a bad thing, some people really were just suffering from Proompt Disorder
tonyhart7 1y ago
seems like the machine is winning next war
jelder 1y ago
Well, good, because these things make bad friends and worse therapists.
- moralestapia 1y ago
  I kind of agree with you as I wouldn't use LLMs for that. But also, one cannot speak for everybody, if it's useful for someone on that context, why's that an issue?
  - chowells 1y ago
    The issue is that people in general are very easy to fool into believing something harmful is helping them. If it was actually useful, it's not an issue. But just because someone believes it's useful doesn't mean it actually is.
  - saubeidl 1y ago
    Because it's probably not great for one's mental health to pretend a statistical model is ones friend?

jimbokun 1y ago

> For companies that extensively test the apps they're building (which should be everyone) swapping out a model is a lot of work. Yet another lesson in building your business on someone else's API.

dragonwriter 1y ago

> I wonder how much of the '5 release was about cutting costs vs making it outwardly better. I'm speculating that one reason they'd deprecate older models is because 5 materially cheaper to run? I mean, assuming the API pricing has some relation to OpenAI cost to provide (which is somewhat speculative, sure), that seems pretty well supported as a truth, if not necessarily the reason for the model being introduced: the models discontinued (“deprecated” implies entering a notice period for future discontinuation) from the ChatGPT interface are priced significantly higher than GPT-5 on the API. > For companies that extensively test the apps they're building (which should be everyone) swapping out a model is a lot of work. Who is building apps relying on the ChatGPT frontend as a model provider? Apps would normally depend on the OpenAI API, where the models are still available, but GPT-5 is added and cheaper.

nickthegreek 1y ago
> Who is building apps relying on the ChatGPT frontend as a model provider? Apps would normally depend on the OpenAI API, where the models are still available, but GPT-5 is added and cheaper. Always enjoy your comments dw, but on this one I disagree. Many non-technical people at my org use custom gpt's as "apps" to do some re-occuring tasks. Some of them have spent absurd time tweaking instructions and knowledge over and over. Also, when you create a custom gpt, you can specifically set the preferred model. This will no doubt change the behavior of those gpts. Ideally at the enterprise level, our admins would have a longer sunset on these models via web/app interface to ensure no hiccups.
trashface 1y ago
Maybe the true cost of GPT-5 is hidden, I tried to use the GPT-5 API and openai wanted me to do a biometric scan with my camera, yikes.

scarface_74 1y ago

Companies testing their apps would be using the API not the ChatGPT app. The models are still available via the API.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

kazinator 1y ago

> For companies that extensively test the apps they're building Test meaning what? Observe whatever surprise comes out the first time you run something and then write it down, to check that the same thing comes out tomorrow and the day after.

augergine 1y ago

[flagged]

flappyeagle 1y ago
What are you on about? What has dang done to hurt you
speedylight 1y ago
Man people would beg to differ, HN wields a lot of influence in the tech community!
MatejKafka 1y ago
Uh, what? Dang is an incredible moderator. I sure hope HN won't get any closer to Reddit, the discussions here tend to be much more interesting - if anything, mediocrity is the result of influx of Reddit users to HN.
- LexiMax 1y ago
  There is a lot more groupthink and echo chamber behavior on HN compared to Reddit due to the way flagging works. For me, HN is unusable without using showdead and using the active front page so I can see what stories its userbase tried to flag off the normal front page. You can also say some pretty horrendous things on this site as long as you couch it in modest proposed-esque soft language. If I want to have a non-technical conversation with other human beings, Tildes blows the doors off of HN in the empathy department.
iammrpayments 1y ago
Bro thought he was posting on 4chan

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]