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The EU could be scanning your chats by October 2025
- iwontberude 1y agoNo thanks
- jeffhuys 1y agoI mean, you can say that, but the unelected will decide for us. Oh when it was just for "easier international trade". What a good one.
- saubeidl 1y agoWhile I also strongly disagree with this plan, everyone involved is elected. The whole "unelected" angle is europhobic propaganda.
- iwontberude 1y agoWe will just keep not using platforms they control and moving whenever they do.
- asyx 1y agoThey are not unelected. They might be appointed but the parliament is elected and can block this. Go vote in EU elections. A parliament that is not full of conservatives can block this.
- PeterStuer 1y agoThe EU is not some US from 30 years ago. It is not "conservatives" that push these totalitarian proposals over here. Look at the DSA voting record. Digital Services Act: https://howtheyvote.eu/votes/139040 https://howtheyvote.eu/votes/139040
- saubeidl 1y agoThe DSA is not totalitarian, has nothing to do with this proposal and is generally a good thing. Please don't muddy the waters.
- input_sh 1y agoDigital Services Act is totalitarian? The one that specifically doesn't do anything to anyone that has under 10% of all EU citizens as monthly active users? I swear this website never ceases to amaze me.
- NekkoDroid 1y agoDo explain how the DSA is even remotely related to this, I am really interested in the rational behind this entire statement.
- frequentmiler 1y ago[dead]
- raron 1y ago> Go vote in EU elections. EP elections can be fairly useless, because you don't vote for parties of the EP, just some local parties who may all sit in the side of the EP you don't like.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- mvdwoord 1y agoMaybe they can lead by example and show us the chats from Ursula first...
- collyw 1y agoIncredible how many politicians whatsapp messages disappeared after the so called pandemic.
- Orange1688 1y agoBetter still, the chats between Danish PM Mette Frederiksen and other members of government concerning the (possibly illegal) culling of all mink in Denmark. The chats were coincidentally deleted for security reasons as the press were catching on - security reasons that apparently do not apply to regular people simply texting their dad, girlfriend or anyone
- arghwhat 1y agoI mean, it's not like you, your dad, girlfriend or anyone would be planning to perform possibly illegal culling of some species, now would you...??? There's lots of little privileges like this that only seem to apply to politicians. Like, lifelong retirement after just one year of work in parliament and government provided tax-free apartments in central Copenhagen. The argument for the latter is that it is needed for them to be near the work, but if a private company provides the same to their employees the employee will be taxed by its full value. Granted, it's less corruption than other places, but definitely still corruption.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- busssard 1y agoit seems it is the general Zeitgeist in Europe. Also in Switzerland and generally erosions of Privacy laws all across the continent. The governments are scared of insurgencies from the right, from the left, from immigrants, from foreign nations. Paranoia and fear are quite prominent.
- clarionbell 1y agoThe way you described it, Europe sounds almost like Imperium from 40k.
- freilanzer 1y agoIf only.
- collyw 1y ago[flagged]
- wobfan 1y agoWhat does this have to do with chat scanning? Theyre not scanning the chats of the ones complaining, nor any multicultural people? It's about child abuse and it has been a thing for like always. Also, weakening or prohibiting encryption has been discussed before this multicultural thing that you describe happened, and it will continue to. Like, literally since the start of the Internet the governments are fighting encryption hard.
- shafyy 1y ago[flagged]
- robk 1y agoHow is that xenophobic? Poor form for you.
- 1y ago
- 44za12 1y agoHonestly, the fact that “scan everyone’s encrypted messages” keeps coming back like a bad sequel says a lot about how governments see privacy, as a speed bump, not a right. Every time this proposal pops up, it’s wrapped in “think of the children” language, but the end result is always the same: less security for everyone, more power for people who already have too much. At some point, you have to wonder if the real goal is to make everyone so paranoid they just stop communicating altogether. Here’s hoping enough people still care to push back—otherwise, we’ll all be talking in code again, and not the fun kind.
- Kim_Bruning 1y agoMaybe constitutional amendments in the member states/ ECHR amendment might help? Article 8 [1] goes some of the way , but has some clear weaknesses. We do have a right to secrecy of correspondence in most member nations, it's kind of silly that we don't have a strict equivalent for phones or computers yet, despite the fact that most people hardly send letters anymore. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_8_of_the_European_Convention_on_Human_Rights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_8_of_the_European_Conv...
- Ekaros 1y agoIn some member state secrecy of correspondence also covers phone calls and any other communication. So the rules are already there. It is just that totalitarians do not want to respect them.
- IlikeKitties 1y ago> Fast-forward to February 2025, Poland tried to find a better compromise by making the scanning of encrypted chats voluntary instead of mandatory and classified as "prevention." Okay hear me out, for public or semi public chats, having a tool to force content scans to prevent people randomly posting csam into the channel might be an idea worth considering. Ask any Matrix Admin about that issue...
- squigz 1y agoYou know, I've been on the Internet 20+ years and have been to some shady corners of it... but nowhere seems to have such a CSAM problem as Matrix and its friends apparently do. Why would that be?
- IlikeKitties 1y agoDue to the design of the protocol and to a degree the audience. Here's a bit more info in form of a video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8KEuAEYjQ4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8KEuAEYjQ4 > but nowhere seems to have such a CSAM problem as Matrix Well Tor, i2p, freenet etc. are mostly csam anyway
- jeroenhd 1y agoI've seen it on the fediverse. Thanks to fediverse servers copying images to a local cache the moment something gets posted, hundreds or even thousands of servers started mirroring child porn because one dickhead liked to see the world burn. My guess is that the source of the problem is that you can easily sign up for a service if it doesn't validate your phone number like every other messenger with a decent following does. If XMPP gained popularity again outside of corporate networks that use it without knowing, we'd also see it there, probably. Matrix also seems to have gathered a following in the particularly unsavoury parts of a few *chan websites which probably doesn't help.
- squigz 1y ago> My guess is that the source of the problem is that you can easily sign up for a service if it doesn't validate your phone number like every other messenger with a decent following does. This is still relatively new and it's not as ubiquitous as say email verification. So I don't see that as being a primary cause of whatever the underlying issue is. Not to mention, I have to imagine it's never been easier to acquire phone numbers to abuse.
- tobyhinloopen 1y agoI just don't get it - criminals will just continue to use "real" encryption. Why are some of these people so obsessed with reading everyone's chats?
- edejong 1y agoCrowd control, psyops, trend analysis. EU is quickly becoming authoritarian and the change is instigated by the sitting parties.
- jeroenhd 1y agoBy banning real encryption, the police can arrest anyone using chat apps they can't control. Them not being able to spy on you automatically makes you guilty. Also something something children something terrorism something something safety, whatever makes the uninformed public feel like this is something that'll benefit them.
- chedabob 1y agoThe criminals will just use something that hides in plain sight. I think it was Encrochat devices that booted into a fairly vanilla looking OS, and there was another platform where it was hidden in something like a calculator app.
- thyristan 1y agoIt isn't about criminals. It is about population control. Keeping the plebs in their place, lest they vote unsavoury opposition parties, or get ideas about real democratic participation.
- pjerem 1y agoYou mean, EncroChat, the company that was infiltrated by cops which led to 4500 arrests ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EncroChat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EncroChat
- 1y ago
- westpfelia 1y ago"the EU wants to scan your messages" implies its every member state and not one freak from Denmark putting this forward where it will die. The EU has always been 90 days from passing mass surveliance for the last decade. Until member states start actually backing this these articles are nothing but click bait.
- clarionbell 1y agoThey haven't passed this yet, because every time people make noise and write their representatives. It's "clickbait" like this that makes any sort of privacy still possible.
- westpfelia 1y agoSure, but this is the same thing as saying "America is going to paint all birds orange" just because one person in the Iowa General House Assembly said we should do it. Awareness is good but there is a fine line between awareness of specific politicians that suck and just misrepresenting the facts.
- jb1991 1y agoOK, I’ll bite. What reason would there be to paint every bird orange?
- squigz 1y agoEasier hunting.
- thyristan 1y agoMaking the surveilance drones (they aren't really birds) more obvious and more conforming to the prison states of america branding. ;)
- westpfelia 1y agoThere isnt. Its a crazy example of what is happening here. To use a real world example take this "EU deal" that Trump did. Everyone is talking like its already taken effect. But the reality is the EU just handshake agreed to this, but at the end of the day all of the member states have to rattify it. And if states dont or if there are arguements made the whole thing gets tossed. I just wish people would say that they dont understand how the EU works. At some point some Dutch mayor is going to say that the inernet should be free, and "tech journalists" are going to write articles talking about how all EU citizens will have Fibre cables connected to them at all times.
- dinfinity 1y agoI am ambivalent about news like this. On one hand it is a terrible proposal that deserves exposure to generate pushback. On the other hand it is still just a proposal, of which there are many (stupid ones) which never see the light of day. This still needs to pass the European Parliament (which is generally opposed to this, not in the least because it is very unpopular under EU citizens). Even then the chances of it surviving a challenge in the courts (of which there will be many) are tiny.
- procaryote 1y agoIf you don't fight proposals because they're "just proposals" you pretty much give up
- dinfinity 1y agoFalse. If the Commission accepts it, there is still time and room to fight it. Furthermore, your logic would also apply if some random person on the street proposed this. My point is that legislation can exist in a variety of stages. In the extreme case where we get stressed and angry at every proposal that any politician comes up with, we waste our energy instead of letting the specific systems introduced and thought up to mitigate issues with such proposals do the job efficiently. Said otherwise: In some cases it effectively becomes crying wolf and makes people numb to and averse to hearing about it. As said, though: I am ambivalent towards news like this. In some cases we need to 'tell, tell, tell' to get the point through. It's a fine line, I think.
- procaryote 1y agoThis is hardly a random person on the street or some single politician. It's a concerted effort by several countries that has been narrowly defeated several times because they keep pushing for it. Besides, getting people up to speed with the idea that backdoored encryption is no encryption is pretty useful in itself, as similar proposals will keep popping up in member countries. But sure, it's not the very last chance.
- zelphirkalt 1y ago
- an_ko 1y agoWhy does this stupid idea have to be killed so many times? Being watched constantly means living in fear, but seeing it almost become legally mandated practice over and over again is itself a form of living in fear. I'm so tired.
- amelius 1y agoOpen source will find a way around it; there's no reason to be afraid. Unless one day their spyware is installed at the hardware level but that would be the equivalent of raiding our homes, so that's not very likely.
- ekianjo 1y agoopen source wont save you. if they make encryption without backdoor illegal they will just throw you in jail
- wobfan 1y agoIt'll definitely save the criminals. Selling drugs on the Internet is also illegal. Selling them in real life too. How many people are doing it still? Doesn't seem very effective, this solution.
- amelius 1y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steganography https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steganography
- ghusto 1y agoThey will once they catch you doing it, yes. The people who this _won't_ stop however, are criminals.
- morkalork 1y agoSeeing that carve out for Google with non-licensed androids being banned from the age verification app., it looks like there's going to be a heavy swing towards trusted devices and apps. in general. Perhaps untrusted ones will be blocked from carrier networks. And then what? You'll be able to have phones with your own custom apps/chat installed that's useless, or phones that are useful but you're stuck with only official, compromised apps.
- rckt 1y agoWith this topic constantly emerging from the authorities, it feels like in the end they will succeed. Money and power always win, to some extent. At least on the official level. But this will lead to those who don't agree to form their own places to communicate securely. The people in power obviously don't want THEIR chats to be scanned, so there will be a safe haven. Just like with tax evaders. But I guess those who care about privacy and security will be considered as potential criminals.
- mortarion 1y agoNothing will come of this. Germany, for some reason, really doesn't like the idea of monitoring citizens messages. Anything that eventually passes will be extremely toothless.
- freilanzer 1y agoGerman politicians love surveillance. I guarantee the CDU and AfD would immediately support this.
- collyw 1y agoThe AfD would support it? They seem like one of the more freedom focused parties in Germany.
- fwn 1y agoThe AfD came out against chat control in a 2023 press release via one of their MPs. Their 2025 platform reads well at first glance (against surveillance, pro open source, against censorship, in favor of individual data sovereignty), but it is relatively vague and feels a bit buzzwordy. In addition to that, the AfD is not known for being predictable. The party lacks a strong institutional core. It is shaped by competing factions, with a weak internal agenda-setting process and a tendency to align with whatever the decision maker closest to making a statement currently perceives as fitting their brand. Positions often shift as a result. For example, they made a strong commitment to protecting cash, then later pushed for a mandatory payment card system for refugees, explicitly to tighten financial control over that group. In practice, that dramatically helps to normalize financial control through payment systems. So, TL;DR: no one really knows. They’re inconsistent and hard to forecast.
- lifestyleguru 1y agoThey equally don't like their private messages being scanned as they like to peek at others'. Personally don't look at mine but my job is looking at yours, nothing personal.
- ricardobeat 1y agoMisleading clickbait in that headline. There will be a deliberation on the proposal, scheduled for October, they even acknowledge this in the article.
- sharpshadow 1y agoScanning revealed there is potentially forbidden material on your phone what then?
- lifeinthevoid 1y agoI don't know how it will go in practice, but next to the obvious mass surveillance by the EU itself, the EU also has a couple of Russian vasal states in its ranks. Great idea you guys!
- ingohelpinger 1y agothe fact these eurocrats come back over and over, even though its clear the majority is against it, just proves that it doesn't matter what the bulk of the population wants. funny how this works.
- Dev6345789 1y agoThe problem is that citizens cannot start referendums, and MPs cannot propose laws to prohibit these privacy violations. So the commission will bring this up again and again and again, until it eventually passes.
- julkali 1y agoThis kind of legislation has been proposed so many times at EU and national level, and will fail like always, at the lates at the European Court of Justice for violating human rights.
- Havoc 1y ago> The Danish Parliament has not yet disclosed the contents of the new compromises. This combination of mass surveillance and secrecy is downright toxic
- ath3nd 1y agoGood luck, I am using Signal.
- sunshine-o 1y agoI was reflecting on the whole chat apps and protocols the other day and felt we might just have trapped ourselves artificially. If I want to casually keep in touch with a friend, I am supposed to have the following options: - SMS/RCS: no need for an app but is controlled - WhatsApp: no good to many reasons - Signal: how can you believe it is not controlled once it becomes the mandatory app in the US Gov. - Matrix: great but you need to self host a server, create accounts, etc. - SimpleX: very interesting, but centralised and I feel it might just be the next Signal. Might be a solution since you can exit at some point by self hosting a server and I guess have alternative implementations. - Delta chat: great but I guess email fall into the mass surveillance target. Now most people do not have crazy security requirements and just want to be able to send a simple text message to a friend and be notified instantly without participating in mass surveillance. So why even using a formal Chat app that will be target by a regulation like Chat Control or kicked out of the App store? Something like Gotify [0] or ntfy [1] are almost enough for most users. It has the whole free from Google and Apple push notification system figured out. You would just need to modify a bit the app to exchange keys with a QR code for individual topics (that you would use as contact or groups). In a way we just need MQTT servers, a client with reliable push notifications and a manual key exchange mechanism. That would be really hard for govs to target. - [0] https://gotify.net/ https://gotify.net/ - [1] https://ntfy.sh/ https://ntfy.sh/
- heavensteeth 1y ago> - Signal: how can you believe it is not controlled once it becomes the mandatory app in the US Gov. cryptography?
- denismenace 1y ago> - Signal: how can you believe it is not controlled once it becomes the mandatory app in the US Gov. Isn't this a good sign? When the US Gov has enough trust to use it internally and officials are already using it for their communications, would this not mean that the service is truly encrypted. They could have some sort of switch for it, but the frontend is open-source and that's where the encryption happens.
- pimterry 1y ago
- Roark66 1y agoMy country for sure will veto it. Last time when they tried it there were massive demonstrations. While the current gov is led by someone that for sure has no backbone to stand up to his good friends in the EU People's party(the name says it all). It is also a minority one that is held up by a coalition that will break instantly if they tried to push this through.
- vaylian 1y agoWhich country is that, if you don't mind sharing. Are there some articles about the demonstrations that you can share?
- qwertox 1y agoI've believed for a long time that if they want to do this shit, they should do it first on the civil servants, politicians included. They, their spouses and their kids. For a timespan of 5 years. And allow any citizen to try to hack their 100% secure backdoors without any fear of consequences. It after 5 years everything is OK, that is, no data has been leaked, no information access abuse has occurred, the test group has not been affected psychologically in a negative way by this potential surveillance, they should present the results, including how many criminals and deranged people have been caught and imprisoned through the direct help of this technology. Then set it up for a direct vote by the people. Else they should just fuck off with their ideas.
- Grumbledour 1y agoIt's quite interesting, that while this topic comes up from time to time (it has been going on a long time after all already), people on here seem to seldom talk about the organizations that lobby for this proposal for years, with big ties to the US and intelligence agencies. So this is by no means just an European phenomenon but there seems to be a much bigger agenda behind it all. Now, at the moment, I don't have a good english language source, but I am sure someone else could provide one? Here is a german language one[0], from netzpolitik.org, who follow chat control for years now an have many articles going in depth about this. I am sure you could use translation software to read it until someone provides a better source. (And if you have not heard of this, you should!) And while someone already linked to patrick breyers website[1] which has a good overview, I do so again so maybe more people will see it. This thing is not new, but it is also not easily ignored and everyone should be informed whats going on here. They will try to pass this again and again since they have done for years now and it's mostly been close calls until now. [0] https://netzpolitik.org/2023/anlasslose-massenueberwachung-recherchen-decken-netzwerk-der-chatkontrolle-lobby-auf/ https://netzpolitik.org/2023/anlasslose-massenueberwachung-r... [1] https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/posts/chat-control/ https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/posts/chat-control/
- autin 1y agoThanks to 77cyberspy@gmail.com, I gained access to my daughter's device. Now I can monitor everything on her phone without her knowledge.
- ryanstanley0147 1y ago[dead]