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Why Koreans ask what year you were born

219 points by bryanhogan 1y ago

johngossman 1y ago
As far as I can tell, everything in this article applies to Japan as well.
- lmm 1y ago
  It does not. Japan a hundred years ago maybe. Some of my Japanese colleagues were surprised when I mentioned this style of age counting in an old novel I was reading.
  - johngossman 1y ago
    You're right and I think I got my misinformation from reading older novels too. Apparently, the law changed in 1902 and it broadly phased out in the 50s.
- ang_cire 1y ago
  That used to be true about Japan using the "1 the day you're born" system, but now it's mostly only referenced to joke about kids trying to claim they're older than they really are.
- dumb1224 1y ago
  In my hometown in China, same practice. However I find it not consistent for people from all over of China. When I get into a causal conversation about childhood with people from everywhere I had to do the conversion in my head (which school year what game came out e.g).
gnabgib 1y ago
(2024) But also: South Koreans become younger overnight after country scraps ‘Korean age’ (2 years ago) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36502797 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36502797 The end of the tricky 'Korean age' (3 years ago) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33907571 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33907571
9dev 1y ago
Those Korean kids born on December 31st must be the kings and queens of their peer group when they become eligible to buy alcohol two years ahead of the others!
- benediktwerner 1y ago
  As far as I understand, they would primarily be in the same peer group as all other people with their Korean age.
- eloisant 1y ago
  Not really because everyone starts at one, so at most it's one year younger those born on Jan 1st. Also their peer group usually being people born the same year, everyone gets to drink at the exact same time (unlike in other countries where everyone reach drinking age at their birthday).
netsharc 1y ago
A friend (not Korean) said on his 29th birthday that he's starting his 30th year of life. It was an interesting perspective, because in general we celebrate our nth birthday after completing n years of life.
- setopt 1y ago
  Personally I prefer to round 29 years 6 months up to «I’m now 30 years old». As you would expect to happen if you run round(29.5). For some reason, most cultures settled on either floor(age) or ceil(age).
  - alexey-salmin 1y ago
    Which cultures settled on ceil(age)?
    - thaumasiotes 1y ago
      The traditional system in China and its surroundings, 虛歲, is that you're born at the age of 1 and your age increases on the new year.
    - setopt 1y ago
      As the sibling comment mentioned, I was thinking of East Asian countries. There's another difference in that age++ there happens on Chinese New Year and not your own birthday, but that's an orthogonal point to the rounding, I think.
- bravesoul2 1y ago
  Funny how your birth day is not a birthday
  - whstl 1y ago
    You wouldn't remember the party anyway
    - 1y ago
bambax 1y ago
> The younger person also addresses the older person, usually with a title or another word that fits their relationship, but not their name. Only the older person addresses the younger one with their name. (There can be more nuance.) I love this. I'm an old French guy and still can't quite accept when srangers in an email (or a machine, a system, a web form) adress me using my first name. Being "on a first name basis" still has meaning for me -- or it would, if it had for anyone else, which clearly is absolutely not the case anymore.
- allendoerfer 1y ago
  Cultural imperialism.
- myst 1y ago
  The meaning was never there in the first place, you just were taught that it is there. Adapt.
  - lmm 1y ago
    All language is socially constructed. It's still annoying when people try to change the meanings of words.
  - BDPW 1y ago
    That's literally all language.
- benediktwerner 1y ago
  Interesting, as a German (which also has a similar system), I am the complete opposite, I find it super irritating when people address me by my last name. And the worst part is having to figure out how to address others, especially people you've known for a while but aren't really close to, e.g. say long-time neighbors I rarely meet. Luckily, in the IT industry, it's common to just use first names with everybody.
  - mytailorisrich 1y ago
    It's quite common, even the norm these days, to address people by their first names in professional settings, among colleagues. The thing is that this is also becoming/has become the norm when you get correspondance from strangers when the standard etiquette is to use title + surname, as in all European countries, I suppose. Now, I think when people address you by your surname only, either orally or in writing, it is irritating.
null_deref 1y ago
The fact that all Koreans that were born in the same year become of a legal age to drink on the same day, probably creates some cool memories if you drink responsibly
- klntsky 1y ago
  Drinking responsibly is uncool by definition when you are that age.
  - apt-apt-apt-apt 1y ago
    'Oh, no thanks! I am good with one beer!'
  - null_deref 1y ago
    Yeah yeah I agree, it’s sometimes fun to go crazy in that age. I meant drinking responsibly in the broadest way possible
- Tarq0n 1y ago
  Korea has a binge drinking culture where adolescents frequently peer pressure each other to drink more.
  - jjani 1y ago
    Alcohol consumption in Korea among young adults has cratered over the last 10 years.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
- jjani 1y ago
  It does, on NYE there's huge groups of kids around going out for the first time.
anhldbk 1y ago
Most Vietnamese do the same things too.
- politelemon 1y ago
  Does the January 1st thing apply as well?
Cyphase 1y ago
Sort of like horses. https://horseracingsense.com/why-thoroughbred-racehorses-same-birthday/ https://horseracingsense.com/why-thoroughbred-racehorses-sam...
- bryanhogan 1y ago
  Thanks for sharing, never knew how much Koreans and horses have in common.
bravesoul2 1y ago
Good job the Matrix wasn't set in Korea
- gschizas 1y ago
  Why?
  - xxs 1y ago
    'Mr. Anderson', c'mon (when the big bad referring 'The one', 'Neo')
    - Yizahi 1y ago
      Movie with agent Smith as a good guy and a protagonist would be very amusing :)
  - ang_cire 1y ago
    I'm guessing because of "neo" being rude
    - bryanhogan 1y ago
      This reminds me, it's actually very interesting how English movies get translated into Korean and vice versa, since the nuances mentioned in the article are hard to translate / convey in the other language.
      - thaumasiotes 1y ago
        In Tamatoa's musical number in Moana, he spontaneously breaks into French for a single line of his song, "c'est la vie, mon ami". This is not expected to cause problems for English-speaking audiences. I thought it was interesting to see how foreign language dubs handled that line. Sometimes they translate the French into the dub language as if it had just been English like the rest of the song. Sometimes they leave it as French. I don't remember any that translate it into a language that isn't the language of the dub, but also isn't French. (Of particular note, the French dub leaves the line as "untranslated" French.) Something that feels similar to me is the treatment of the Italian brothers in Lady and the Tramp. In the English original, they are jovial immigrants from Italy who operate an Italian restaurant and speak English in a very thick Italian accent. This cultural concept translated better into some foreign languages than others. In the French dub, the brothers are jovial immigrants from Italy who operate an Italian restaurant and speak French in a very thick Italian accent.
kinleyd 1y ago
As a young man many years ago I happened to be in Seoul, in a shoe store. I was casually asking prices in English and noticed the salesman or owner was getting visibly angry with me. So much so that as I went around the corner of the store I clearly saw that he had begun advancing toward me, with every intention of physically attacking me. I put my hand forward to stop him and as I did, I shouted loudly, again in English, "Stop. Let me outta here!" To which he suddenly hesitated, stepped aside and let me go. I wondered for years what I might have done to upset the bloke - he was a well built man and I did not want to fight him! It was only after the KAL crash and the coverage it gave the Korean focus on seniority and age that the penny dropped. He thought I was Korean - I do look very Korean (and Japanese and Chinese) - and was clearly offended by my not respecting his age. At least that is what I would like to think. The alternative is that I was somehow very offensive anyway and I'd like not to think that.
- whstl 1y ago
  In Germany I never had someone go to those lengths, but I've once made someone visible irritated when I used "du" instead of the more formal "Sie". Of course I didn't notice but a friend just clued me into it right after. Thing is, in Berlin nobody really cares I guess, but this time I was in the country... oooooops...
  - ffsm8 1y ago
    That must've been quite some time ago. With multiple areas with >50% migrants you can count yourself lucky if ppl even speak German fluently enough to hold a conversation. And the last holdouts that are still mostly natives are usually in the countryside... And the du/Sie rule has always been an urban convention. Personally, I think your friend just noticed the phrasing and made an issue out of nothing
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
  - Melonai 1y ago
    Interesting. In Germany I've always had the opposite issue of my superiors vastly preferring I used "du" for them instead of "sie". I've always had some trouble with that since in Russia you usually try to address senior employees, your teachers and professors formally, although tech companies are as usual a big exception. Many people were quite unhappy when I kept slipping up and being too formal with them afterwards... :)
GreyMolecules 1y ago
This article does not address another layer that makes the Korean age system complicated: the "빠른" system. It refers to people born in January or February who, due to the school cutoff being in March, often enter school a year early and socially identify with those born in the previous calendar year. For example, if I'm "빠른95", which indicates that I was born in 1995 between January and the end of February, I get to befriend and hang out with the ones born in 1994. (Please note that Koreans typically make friends within the same narrow age band.)
- bryanhogan 1y ago
  That's very interesting, thanks for mentioning it! I didn't know about that, hence I didn't include it. But it makes sense, I have sometimes noticed people asking whether the other was born early or late into the year, and change their standing based on that, but didn't know that that could have been because of the "빠른" system.
  - GreyMolecules 1y ago
    Being a 빠른 can put you in a slightly sticky situation, especially when combined with the strict hierarchy rules regarding honorifics (존댓말). Typically, throughout middle school to university days, a South Korean individual is expected to use the honorific version of the language when speaking to someone older. This version involves a completely different set of vocabulary and grammar, used to show "respect to others" and sound "polite," effectively preventing one from being casual with others. Whereas a 빠른 is allowed to befriend people one year above their age and gets to use "반말" (the casual version of the language) with those peers. A social complication can arise when two groups with a monotonic increase in age meet. Say, friend group A comprises a regular 95 and a 빠른 95. They became friends in high school and talk casually. Then there's group B, which consists of a regular 95 and a 빠른 96, who also became friends in high school. Now, when groups A and B start hanging out together at university, the 빠른 95 has to decide whether to use honorific or casual speech with the regular 95 and the 빠른 96. The ones stuck in the middle, in this case the 빠른95, gets called "족보 브레이커", which roughly translates to "pedigree breaker".
- 1y ago
socalgal2 1y ago
This "high power distance" culture contributed to several airline crashes in the 80s and 90s because people under the captain wouldn't dare to question the captain's decisions. One in particular: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Flight_801 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Flight_801
- decimalenough 1y ago
  Malcolm Campbell popularized this theory. It's not entirely without merit but as ever the reality is more nuanced. NTSB: > The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of this accident was the captain's failure to adequately brief and execute the non-precision approach and the first officer's and flight engineer's failure to effectively monitor and cross-check the captain's execution of the approach. Contributing to these failures were the captain's fatigue and Korean Air's inadequate flight crew training. Contributing to the accident was the Federal Aviation Administration's intentional inhibition of the minimum safe altitude warning system at Guam and the agency's failure to adequately manage the system.
  - elSidCampeador 1y ago
    *Gladwell - Malcolm Campbell died long ago
- contrarian1234 1y ago
  Assuming the "power distance" is pre-existing - I find honorifics make it much easier to challenge someone in authority. If you start with a Mr/Mrs Blah or Professor Blah and then present critcism.. it typically comes off better. B/c you are showing you're not too chummy and you're strongly implying you respect them (at least somewhat). Ex: You're in a lecture and you tell your professor "Professor X, I think on slide 10 there is a mistake". This comes off much better than "Hey Bob, I think there is a mistake on slide 10" So at least personally, if appropriate, I default to using honorifics b/c it makes people feel better. (Unless they for some reason want to be seen as your peer - which does happen rarely)
  - 1y ago
beardyw 1y ago
'Using “you” in Korean is quite interesting since the direct translation 너 / neo is often too rude' This is most likely an equivalent to thee/thou which was considered rude to use for one's superiors or elders as in: "Don't tha "thee" me!" - it's ok for me to use for you but not t'other way round. Now many believe thou/thee to be respectful because of the bible, where in fact it is used as familiarity.
kijin 1y ago
Korean age is a hack that helps ease the friction that all those rules of seniority and different speech levels impose on us. It gives you an age bracket within which everyone is equal, once and for all, regardless of their exact date of birth. Your friend isn't suddenly going to speak down to you when he turns 7 and you're still 6, except perhaps as a joke. Both of you are 8 in Korean age, and will turn 9 at the exact same moment. This age bracket produces a stable peer group who can remain friends for life, regardless of when or where individuals went to school, got a job, or enlisted in the army -- all the other places where hierarchy can be imposed. Of course, the year is also important for reasons of superstition. There are still some elderly people who ask for the (Chinese zodiac) animal associated with your year of birth, instead of the year itself.
thaumasiotes 1y ago
I'm surprised they ask for the year directly. My impression is that in China, if you want to know someone's age, you ask for the animal of their birth year. That gives you the year mod 12, which you're expected to be able to resolve to a particular year yourself.
- tdeck 1y ago
  I've read that it's considered perfectly OK to ask someone's salary in China, so it's interesting that asking a person's birth year would be sensitive.
whensean 1y ago
From the perspective of national and social development, this is definitely a dross culture. This system similar to hierarchy seemingly increases the courtesy among people. However, it more often leads to age bullying, blind obedience to the elders, and hinders resistance and innovation. Influenced by Confucian culture, China doesn't have such a perverted etiquette system at all.
- 4gotunameagain 1y ago
  Typical cultural superiority bias. Every way has its pros and cons. Having an age related hierarchy might have benefits like societal coherence or stability. I am not a proponent of it, I just acknowledge my inability to fully grasp the impact and ramifications as to label one as superior and the other as "perverted".
  - cess11 1y ago
    If you think hierarchy is natural and good you're a conservative or some other kind of reactionary. Hierarchies invite revolt and need a lot of force to keep in place.
    - 4gotunameagain 1y ago
      I did not talk about natural, I did not talk about good. If you think there are no hierarchies everywhere, then we have a completely different worldview.
      - mock-possum 1y ago
        It’s sounds like we’re running into the is/ought problem - just because there is hierarchy doesn’t mean that’s the way it ought to be.
  - skyscraperman 1y ago
    [flagged]
Noelia- 1y ago
I find it really interesting how much weight that simple question "What year were you born?" carries in Korean social life. A Korean friend once told me that it’s not about prying into your private life, it’s about figuring out how to talk to you and what to call you. It also made me realize that a lot of the small social details we take for granted might seem really jarring or even rude in another culture.
Leftium 1y ago
Koreans have some "hacks" to get around this (age-based) social hierarchy: 1. Some workplaces use English names (and even English language) so co-workers can speak/refer to each other without using the social hierarchy constructs built into the Korean language. 2. Social (partnered) dance clubs go by nicknames for the same reason. Even though I dance with them on a regular basis, I don't know most of my dance friends' real names. I'm not aware of any other country where dancers do this.
- rafram 1y ago
  > Some workplaces use English names (and even English language) so co-workers can speak/refer to each other without using the social hierarchy constructs built into the Korean language. That's so interesting. It reminds me very vaguely of Indians escaping the caste hierarchy by converting to Islam or Buddhism. Sometimes the easiest way out of a restrictive system in your culture is just to switch cultural contexts entirely.
- kwillets 1y ago
  Kakao ended the English names a year or so ago due to inevitable confusion, but now people are supposed to add the "nim" (dear) suffix to each other's Korean names instead, which sounds creepy. The funny part of the Kakao CEO asking to be called Brian is that there was a K-drama (Search WWW) with a fictional tech company, but they also made the CEO name Brian. I suspect if this idea had gone on every CEO would be called Brian.
  - donkeylazy456 1y ago
    yeah i agree with being even with coworkers but calling them with english name sounds seriously cringe. I do not prefer.
  - jjani 1y ago
    Never heard someone saying 님 sounds creepy, it's very commonplace in tech companies, Kakao was far from the first to introduce this. I've worked at a place where everyone was ..님 and no one cared.
- 1y ago
Leftium 1y ago
It can also be considered rude to use the more formal style of speech when the social hierarchy dictates the informal style should be used. The book Using Korean[1] gives a detailed explanation of how formal speech indicates social distance more than simple politeness: > [존댓말] indicates a psychological distance between the speaker and the hearer... a couple in a romantic relationship who normally use an intimate casual style with each other will suddenly switch to a formal style after they fight, to demonstrate the distance they feel from each other. From a related discussion: https://www.reddit.com/r/Korean/comments/vcusut/comment/icj2zje/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Korean/comments/vcusut/comment/icj2... [1]: https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=2ggVsnUCbiAC&lpg=PA17&pg=PA4#v=onepage&q=Distance%20versus%20politeness&f=false https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=2ggVsnUCbiAC&lpg=PA17&pg...
- blissofbeing 1y ago
  It's interesting that someone like a boss would be further away from you and not a friend, how would you talk to your boss that is also your friend?
  - Leftium 1y ago
    I suppose it would depend on the exact people and circumstances: the "social distance" can be very subjective. - The same situation with different people or the same people in a different situation may result in different speech levels. - If an older person feels really close to a junior, they may even ask them to "lower their speech." There was a documentary about a much older Korean working for a very young boss. This resulted in a conflict: age hierarchy vs role hierarchy. They both spoke to each other in the formal style. And think about addressing a mix of people who are both above and below you in the hierarchy...
- jjani 1y ago
  That isn't about the social hierarchy, it's about the switch. If the couple would always use 존댓말 - which is not the norm nowadays but still a large enough minority that it's not weird - then obviously it'd be a switch to 반말 that would be shocking; in fact it would sound even worse to suddenly do so during a fight.
bitbasher 1y ago
Japanese also has a number of social systems and expectations that can be tricky to navigate as an outsider. When I was younger and studying Japanese I used to play a popular Japanese MMORPG. It was popular among middle aged individuals (25-50). I was lucky enough to meet a Japanese clan leader that invited me into one of the largest clans in the game. Fast forward a year or so-- and a new player joined the clan. One day the new player flipped out on me in our clan chat. Our clan leaders told her I wasn't Japanese and to cut me some slack. She refused to believe I was a foreigner. On the one hand I was proud. My Japanese was good enough for someone to think I wasn't a foreigner. On the other hand I was sad, I clearly did something wrong. The clan leader spoke to me in a 1:1 fashion and tried to explain. It wasn't the language I used, but more or less how I interacted with the more senior clan members. I would often suggest things we could do or ask if they wanted to do something. In reality, it was expected to do small talk and wait for senior clan members to suggest something to do. I was crossing some social boundary...
- Llamamoe 1y ago
  > I would often suggest things we could do or ask if they wanted to do something. In reality, it was expected to do small talk and wait for senior clan members to suggest something to do. I was crossing some social boundary... I know that this sort of shit happens in corporations and the government, but the idea that it crosses over into even multiplayer games makes me reconsider if I really want to ever visit Japan...
  - neurostimulant 1y ago
    Big clans are basically companies with hierarchical power structure.
  - thaumasiotes 1y ago
    Social structures still exist in social situations. I don't really see what the alternative would be. I found an interesting interview on youtube of someone who grew up in Japan and moved to Korea: > What is your favorite thing about Korea? > I find it comfortable that Koreans are honest about their thoughts. > In the beginning I was hurt a lot and it was hard because of how honest Koreans are > What do you think is the difference between Korea and Japan? > First of all I think there is a difference in personality > Since I was living in Japan, up until I was 18 years old, I had a typical Japanese personality > Back then I couldn't speak my mind [...] and dancing was the only way I could express myself > [...] and I also couldn't reject [someone/something] > when my friends said we should do something, I always said yes > after living in Korea, I felt a lot that I need to say what I want and don't want to do Given that it's unacceptable to reject what a peer wants to do in Japan, I can see where making suggestions to a superior would cause problems. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPqqwrZqjK8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPqqwrZqjK8
readthenotes1 1y ago
'Using “you” in Korean is quite interesting since the direct translation 너 / neo is often too rude.' That makes me wonder how the preferred third person pronoun movement works in Korea...
- Leftium 1y ago
  It doesn't really exist because Korean pronouns don't have any gender attached to them.
  - readthenotes1 1y ago
    That's the best solution, of course. Almost never does it clarify...
JohnFen 1y ago
What would be the polite way to decline to answer the question? Is that even possible?
- aspenmayer 1y ago
  “I don’t give out that information (as a matter of principle/because my mother told me not to/because people close to me have been victims of identity theft/because I’m old enough to know better).” Or some variation thereof. It’s enough to say that you don’t because you choose not to, but some people will belabor the point until you give an answer that has the ring of finality and can communicate that it isn't a matter of debate, but a matter of conscience, or rationale, or whatever principle(s) guide you. Or you could provide a joke answer that is absurdly high or low or wrong, like saying that you weren’t born yesterday, or that you were born at night, but not last night, or in the day, but not yesterday. This might work for those who you are closer with personally, but some may find this kind of answer dismissive and will persist or get upset. If in doubt, use the principle-based approach I mentioned above instead or in addition to the joke one, as a way of showing that you’re answering in good faith and take their question seriously as asked.
daft_pink 1y ago
I've been told the one reason why Japanese is so hard to learn is because there is an underlying etiquette and social hierarchy built into the language and it is not simply being able to understand and speak the words. Native speakers tolerate errors when it's obvious someone is non-native, but become offended when they speak it perfectly, but screw up the social heirarchy, so it's extremely hard to progress beyond a certain point.
- gyomu 1y ago
  Heh that’s overstated. As a non Asian foreigner*, you get a lot of leeway for making mistakes when speaking Japanese, as it is somehow ingrained in the subconscious here that Japanese is very special and very complicated and a foreigner trying to speak it is already doing something near impossible. If your Japanese is near flawless except for the honorific register that would strike people as weird, but then what did you do to end up speaking flawless Japanese without ever properly internalizing honorific Japanese? *(If you are an Asian foreigner, you are subject to many other layers of prejudice unrelated to your language ability)
  - thaumasiotes 1y ago
    My grandmother spent a lot of time in Japan, and she reported that everyone was very accommodating initially, but that over time the expectation developed that after being there for so long she should have learned the correct way to behave.
    - gyomu 1y ago
      Yes, but that’s more about manners and being part of a community than language skills. You can speak shit Japanese and still be involved with your local community and be accepted and appreciated, for sure.
lvl155 1y ago
Koreans from Korea often do not follow this rule outside of the country. They basically use it whenever it benefits them. So in essence this aspect of the culture is pretty much…BS.
dkga 1y ago
I find it surprising actually how much these seniority rules are well-defined in many cultures, but in Brazil there is strong variation - even in the same geography. For example, a colleague who is learning Brazilian Portuguese was under the impression that "você" and "tu" were the equivalent of "vous/tu" or "Sie/du". In reality, they are just different regional ways of saying the informal you. In Brazilian Portuguese is to call someone "o Senhor/a Senhora" based on their gender, with a singular third person declination. And in the countryside, it is common to hear people use "Doutor/Doutora" the same way they would use the normal formal language when addressing educated people or land-owners. Another example many people outside Brazil find interesting: in my family we were taught to never use the formal towards anyone. The rationale is that everyone is equal and that using the formal language was disrespectful because it created an artificial distance between us and the other person. We were also taught never to use the formal language when praying for the same reason. However, other people are taught to use the formal language towards bosses and elders, also with a respect rationale, and some other folks in Brazil (even from big cities) actually require that their children address them with formal language. So now when in doubt I use the formal language with people that are much older than I am although that feels utterly unnatural to me, but I always make people comfortable to use the informal with me as I personally find this to be more respectful. Just one more comment: in Brazil it is unfortunately the case that some offices have a standard treatment like "your excellency", etc, which are nominally meant to respect the office but in reality become a kind of test of compliance and obedience. I recall in particular one incident where an attorney presenting in front of the Supreme Court was severely reprimanded for not address justices with the proper term. Personally, I am not sure that required compliance with a style - by regulation or by societal expectations - is indeed "respect" if it is not matched with actions and posture that really reflect due consideration towards the other person.
- inerte 1y ago
  Or the judge who sued his condominium demanding its employees call him "doutor" (Your Honor)... As a Brazilian raised to not care about this stuff, I would say even rebelled a bit, it was weird to basically be required to do so once I reached adulthood. I remember getting in front of a sheriff and having to address him as "doutor". I remember talking to an intern in law firms and he corrected me when I addressed him by name saying, "No, it's DOUTOR Adriano". Gee, let's not even mention the medical field... veterinarians and nutritionists want to be called "doutor"...
OJFord 1y ago
A not dissimilar age thing I've found interesting is from India: it is (or can be? Big country) typical to age yourself by the year of life you're in, i.e. 1-based rather than 0-based, basically. On his birthday my grandfather in law said 'I am x years old! [...] Oh, no, x-1 complete.' It's funny these kinds of arbitrary systems for things we have, and never question, until you suddenly stumble into one that's slightly different.
xenadu02 1y ago
In the USA as a low-level employee address the company CEO as "heya phil, hows it going?". Then address your friend with "Hello Mr. Smith". In most cases you won't get a positive reaction out of either one of those (yes exceptions exist). How about this: address your husband/wife as "Mr/Mrs <lastname>", especially after a fight. Similarly when the kids have been doing something or you are frustrated with your partner say "your son did X". Every language has explicit and implicit rules for expressing honor, respect, and closeness. Informal systems can vary more often and be more fluid but they always exist.
- drchickensalad 1y ago
  Gotta love when you're in a 2,000 person public company, and you can still "heya Phil" despite not being a personal friend at all, and he even prefers it
- losvedir 1y ago
  I actually think "heya phil" is more the norm than not. Certainly in tech that's the case. For example, we address the CEO of the company I work at (small but public) by her first name. From tuning into investor calls from my days in finance it's even common at non-tech companies.
  - DiggyJohnson 1y ago
    Small tech firms are notorious outliers when it comes to this though
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
  - j-bos 1y ago
    Can attest, I work at a fortune 500 and have addressed c-suite-2 by their first names, also seen the CEO adressed by his first name in Q&As by commom employees.
- 90s_dev 1y ago
deadbabe 1y ago
Is it more or less beneficial to birth a Korean child on December 31 so they can be two years in Korean Age ASAP? Thinking about their career prospects, certain legal requirements etc. if older is better, it seems like you’d want to hit that December 31st birth date.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
joshdavham 1y ago
How does this generally work with romantic relationships? Do people usually only start relationships if they are of the same age?
- fxtentacle 1y ago
  Typically the girl will pretend the guy to be older, if that isn't the case. That's why girls in movies and K-Pop groups always shout "Oppa!". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwmSjveL3Lc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwmSjveL3Lc And you might remember the Oppa that is Gangnam Style: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bZkp7q19f0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bZkp7q19f0
  - quesera 1y ago
    > And you might remember the Oppa that is Gangnam Style: My cultural awareness, which is distinctly non-Asian, assumed that this "Oppa" had something to do with horses.
    - fxtentacle 1y ago
      What a brilliant comment :) I'm not sure if you're joking, but it certainly brightened up my day. That Gangnam Style song is about riding and the associated up and down motion, just not related to horses. In that scene where he's watching the horses, he's singing: "A true lady who is warm and human during the day, who is classy and knows how to enjoy a cup of coffee. But when night comes, her heart gets hot..." and then you see the horse moving its head up and down and he sings: "A lady who is kinky in that way" And then you see him with 2 girls in his arms and he's using rather suggestive language: "A man who one-shots ... his coffee. A man who won't let things cool down ... A man who bursts when night comes ... his heart. A man with few muscles and he is bulging ... with ideas." Also, if you pay attention to it, you can hear that both gangnam songs are littered with audio samples of him and her moaning, e.g: https://youtu.be/9bZkp7q19f0?feature=shared&t=151 https://youtu.be/9bZkp7q19f0?feature=shared&t=151 https://youtu.be/wcLNteez3c4?feature=shared&t=68 https://youtu.be/wcLNteez3c4?feature=shared&t=68 And then there's the famous elevator scene where his lyrics are: "A good woman appears calm, but knows how to have fun. She's reasonable and when it's the right time, she will let her hair down ..." https://youtu.be/9bZkp7q19f0?feature=shared&t=114 https://youtu.be/9bZkp7q19f0?feature=shared&t=114
unsignedint 1y ago
I despise the social construct that ties respect to age. As someone who’s biologically Japanese—and coming from a culture that shares similar values with Korean society in this regard—I often find it frustrating when dealing with other Japanese people. Some individuals will ask your age just so they can justify talking down to you. I’ve even had cases where someone was polite at first, but the moment they realized they were older, their behavior shifted entirely. That kind of attitude is a major pet peeve of mine—it honestly makes me want to pull my hair out. While the younger generation tends to care less about age differences among peers (and thankfully avoids this behavior), there are still far too many people who believe age alone gives them the right to act superior or pretend they know better. I strongly believe respect should be earned based on character, not age. I make a point to be polite to everyone, regardless of how old they are—and that’s why I don’t even bother asking.
- haarolean 1y ago
  Nowadays it seems more of a coping mechanism for fading relevance rather than respecting the actual competence.
sandworm101 1y ago
I did some work (military) with a couple asian nations during a multinational exercise. It was all done in english. What blew them away was how our honorifics changes not just according to the established hierarchies but according to location, dress and who else was within earshot. I had a junior guy from an asian nation shadowing me. He was shocked when my officer and I addressed each other by first names/callsigns. What stressed my shadow was how twenty minutes later, in a different room with different people, we switched to formal ranks. What further blew his mind was my explanation that breaks from these casual informalities would be a silent message. For instance, if a friend addressed me in private by my formal rank, I would know that I was in trouble ... or that someone was listening. He thought our culture was the more complicated. His culture had rules that everyone knew and followed. Our culture had rules that everyone knew but nobody seemed to follow.
pre2w 1y ago
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unstppbl 1y ago
I met a Korean classmate while studying Chinese together in China. We really hit it off, and on our first date she unexpectedly asked how old I was. When I told her I was a couple of years older, she gently explained that we couldn’t be together. Well.. I couldn’t understand it, feelings were mutual, it was like we were meant for each other, and all that was thrown because of age difference, how stupid.
OfficeChad 1y ago
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darkhorn 1y ago
This exists in all Uralic-Altaic languages; Turkish, Mongolian, Korean, Japanese, Finnish, Hungarian and Tungus. It is build in the language/culure.
RyanOD 1y ago
I'm a person of European descent married to a person of Korean descent. Her mother's age has always been a question mark. As she aged and her memory became less reliable, it became even moreso. Nevermind not being entirely certain of her actual birthday...
Drunkfoowl 1y ago
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219 points by bryanhogan 1y ago

johngossman 1y ago

As far as I can tell, everything in this article applies to Japan as well.

lmm 1y ago
It does not. Japan a hundred years ago maybe. Some of my Japanese colleagues were surprised when I mentioned this style of age counting in an old novel I was reading.
- johngossman 1y ago
  You're right and I think I got my misinformation from reading older novels too. Apparently, the law changed in 1902 and it broadly phased out in the 50s.
ang_cire 1y ago
That used to be true about Japan using the "1 the day you're born" system, but now it's mostly only referenced to joke about kids trying to claim they're older than they really are.
dumb1224 1y ago
In my hometown in China, same practice. However I find it not consistent for people from all over of China. When I get into a causal conversation about childhood with people from everywhere I had to do the conversion in my head (which school year what game came out e.g).

gnabgib 1y ago

(2024) But also: South Koreans become younger overnight after country scraps ‘Korean age’ (2 years ago) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36502797 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36502797 The end of the tricky 'Korean age' (3 years ago) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33907571 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33907571

9dev 1y ago

Those Korean kids born on December 31st must be the kings and queens of their peer group when they become eligible to buy alcohol two years ahead of the others!

benediktwerner 1y ago
As far as I understand, they would primarily be in the same peer group as all other people with their Korean age.
eloisant 1y ago
Not really because everyone starts at one, so at most it's one year younger those born on Jan 1st. Also their peer group usually being people born the same year, everyone gets to drink at the exact same time (unlike in other countries where everyone reach drinking age at their birthday).

netsharc 1y ago

A friend (not Korean) said on his 29th birthday that he's starting his 30th year of life. It was an interesting perspective, because in general we celebrate our nth birthday after completing n years of life.

setopt 1y ago
Personally I prefer to round 29 years 6 months up to «I’m now 30 years old». As you would expect to happen if you run round(29.5). For some reason, most cultures settled on either floor(age) or ceil(age).
- alexey-salmin 1y ago
  Which cultures settled on ceil(age)?
  - thaumasiotes 1y ago
    The traditional system in China and its surroundings, 虛歲, is that you're born at the age of 1 and your age increases on the new year.
  - setopt 1y ago
    As the sibling comment mentioned, I was thinking of East Asian countries. There's another difference in that age++ there happens on Chinese New Year and not your own birthday, but that's an orthogonal point to the rounding, I think.
bravesoul2 1y ago
Funny how your birth day is not a birthday
- whstl 1y ago
  You wouldn't remember the party anyway
  - 1y ago

bambax 1y ago

> The younger person also addresses the older person, usually with a title or another word that fits their relationship, but not their name. Only the older person addresses the younger one with their name. (There can be more nuance.) I love this. I'm an old French guy and still can't quite accept when srangers in an email (or a machine, a system, a web form) adress me using my first name. Being "on a first name basis" still has meaning for me -- or it would, if it had for anyone else, which clearly is absolutely not the case anymore.

allendoerfer 1y ago
Cultural imperialism.
myst 1y ago
The meaning was never there in the first place, you just were taught that it is there. Adapt.
- lmm 1y ago
  All language is socially constructed. It's still annoying when people try to change the meanings of words.
- BDPW 1y ago
  That's literally all language.
benediktwerner 1y ago
Interesting, as a German (which also has a similar system), I am the complete opposite, I find it super irritating when people address me by my last name. And the worst part is having to figure out how to address others, especially people you've known for a while but aren't really close to, e.g. say long-time neighbors I rarely meet. Luckily, in the IT industry, it's common to just use first names with everybody.
- mytailorisrich 1y ago
  It's quite common, even the norm these days, to address people by their first names in professional settings, among colleagues. The thing is that this is also becoming/has become the norm when you get correspondance from strangers when the standard etiquette is to use title + surname, as in all European countries, I suppose. Now, I think when people address you by your surname only, either orally or in writing, it is irritating.

null_deref 1y ago

The fact that all Koreans that were born in the same year become of a legal age to drink on the same day, probably creates some cool memories if you drink responsibly

klntsky 1y ago
Drinking responsibly is uncool by definition when you are that age.
- apt-apt-apt-apt 1y ago
  'Oh, no thanks! I am good with one beer!'
- null_deref 1y ago
  Yeah yeah I agree, it’s sometimes fun to go crazy in that age. I meant drinking responsibly in the broadest way possible
Tarq0n 1y ago
Korea has a binge drinking culture where adolescents frequently peer pressure each other to drink more.
- jjani 1y ago
  Alcohol consumption in Korea among young adults has cratered over the last 10 years.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
jjani 1y ago
It does, on NYE there's huge groups of kids around going out for the first time.

anhldbk 1y ago

Most Vietnamese do the same things too.

politelemon 1y ago
Does the January 1st thing apply as well?

Cyphase 1y ago

Sort of like horses. https://horseracingsense.com/why-thoroughbred-racehorses-same-birthday/ https://horseracingsense.com/why-thoroughbred-racehorses-sam...

bryanhogan 1y ago
Thanks for sharing, never knew how much Koreans and horses have in common.

bravesoul2 1y ago

Good job the Matrix wasn't set in Korea

gschizas 1y ago
Why?
- xxs 1y ago
  'Mr. Anderson', c'mon (when the big bad referring 'The one', 'Neo')
  - Yizahi 1y ago
    Movie with agent Smith as a good guy and a protagonist would be very amusing :)
- ang_cire 1y ago
  I'm guessing because of "neo" being rude
  - bryanhogan 1y ago
    This reminds me, it's actually very interesting how English movies get translated into Korean and vice versa, since the nuances mentioned in the article are hard to translate / convey in the other language.
    - thaumasiotes 1y ago
      In Tamatoa's musical number in Moana, he spontaneously breaks into French for a single line of his song, "c'est la vie, mon ami". This is not expected to cause problems for English-speaking audiences. I thought it was interesting to see how foreign language dubs handled that line. Sometimes they translate the French into the dub language as if it had just been English like the rest of the song. Sometimes they leave it as French. I don't remember any that translate it into a language that isn't the language of the dub, but also isn't French. (Of particular note, the French dub leaves the line as "untranslated" French.) Something that feels similar to me is the treatment of the Italian brothers in Lady and the Tramp. In the English original, they are jovial immigrants from Italy who operate an Italian restaurant and speak English in a very thick Italian accent. This cultural concept translated better into some foreign languages than others. In the French dub, the brothers are jovial immigrants from Italy who operate an Italian restaurant and speak French in a very thick Italian accent.

kinleyd 1y ago

As a young man many years ago I happened to be in Seoul, in a shoe store. I was casually asking prices in English and noticed the salesman or owner was getting visibly angry with me. So much so that as I went around the corner of the store I clearly saw that he had begun advancing toward me, with every intention of physically attacking me. I put my hand forward to stop him and as I did, I shouted loudly, again in English, "Stop. Let me outta here!" To which he suddenly hesitated, stepped aside and let me go. I wondered for years what I might have done to upset the bloke - he was a well built man and I did not want to fight him! It was only after the KAL crash and the coverage it gave the Korean focus on seniority and age that the penny dropped. He thought I was Korean - I do look very Korean (and Japanese and Chinese) - and was clearly offended by my not respecting his age. At least that is what I would like to think. The alternative is that I was somehow very offensive anyway and I'd like not to think that.

whstl 1y ago
In Germany I never had someone go to those lengths, but I've once made someone visible irritated when I used "du" instead of the more formal "Sie". Of course I didn't notice but a friend just clued me into it right after. Thing is, in Berlin nobody really cares I guess, but this time I was in the country... oooooops...
- ffsm8 1y ago
  That must've been quite some time ago. With multiple areas with >50% migrants you can count yourself lucky if ppl even speak German fluently enough to hold a conversation. And the last holdouts that are still mostly natives are usually in the countryside... And the du/Sie rule has always been an urban convention. Personally, I think your friend just noticed the phrasing and made an issue out of nothing
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
- Melonai 1y ago
  Interesting. In Germany I've always had the opposite issue of my superiors vastly preferring I used "du" for them instead of "sie". I've always had some trouble with that since in Russia you usually try to address senior employees, your teachers and professors formally, although tech companies are as usual a big exception. Many people were quite unhappy when I kept slipping up and being too formal with them afterwards... :)

GreyMolecules 1y ago

This article does not address another layer that makes the Korean age system complicated: the "빠른" system. It refers to people born in January or February who, due to the school cutoff being in March, often enter school a year early and socially identify with those born in the previous calendar year. For example, if I'm "빠른95", which indicates that I was born in 1995 between January and the end of February, I get to befriend and hang out with the ones born in 1994. (Please note that Koreans typically make friends within the same narrow age band.)

bryanhogan 1y ago
That's very interesting, thanks for mentioning it! I didn't know about that, hence I didn't include it. But it makes sense, I have sometimes noticed people asking whether the other was born early or late into the year, and change their standing based on that, but didn't know that that could have been because of the "빠른" system.
- GreyMolecules 1y ago
  Being a 빠른 can put you in a slightly sticky situation, especially when combined with the strict hierarchy rules regarding honorifics (존댓말). Typically, throughout middle school to university days, a South Korean individual is expected to use the honorific version of the language when speaking to someone older. This version involves a completely different set of vocabulary and grammar, used to show "respect to others" and sound "polite," effectively preventing one from being casual with others. Whereas a 빠른 is allowed to befriend people one year above their age and gets to use "반말" (the casual version of the language) with those peers. A social complication can arise when two groups with a monotonic increase in age meet. Say, friend group A comprises a regular 95 and a 빠른 95. They became friends in high school and talk casually. Then there's group B, which consists of a regular 95 and a 빠른 96, who also became friends in high school. Now, when groups A and B start hanging out together at university, the 빠른 95 has to decide whether to use honorific or casual speech with the regular 95 and the 빠른 96. The ones stuck in the middle, in this case the 빠른95, gets called "족보 브레이커", which roughly translates to "pedigree breaker".
1y ago

socalgal2 1y ago

This "high power distance" culture contributed to several airline crashes in the 80s and 90s because people under the captain wouldn't dare to question the captain's decisions. One in particular: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Flight_801 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Flight_801

decimalenough 1y ago
Malcolm Campbell popularized this theory. It's not entirely without merit but as ever the reality is more nuanced. NTSB: > The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of this accident was the captain's failure to adequately brief and execute the non-precision approach and the first officer's and flight engineer's failure to effectively monitor and cross-check the captain's execution of the approach. Contributing to these failures were the captain's fatigue and Korean Air's inadequate flight crew training. Contributing to the accident was the Federal Aviation Administration's intentional inhibition of the minimum safe altitude warning system at Guam and the agency's failure to adequately manage the system.
- elSidCampeador 1y ago
  *Gladwell - Malcolm Campbell died long ago
contrarian1234 1y ago
Assuming the "power distance" is pre-existing - I find honorifics make it much easier to challenge someone in authority. If you start with a Mr/Mrs Blah or Professor Blah and then present critcism.. it typically comes off better. B/c you are showing you're not too chummy and you're strongly implying you respect them (at least somewhat). Ex: You're in a lecture and you tell your professor "Professor X, I think on slide 10 there is a mistake". This comes off much better than "Hey Bob, I think there is a mistake on slide 10" So at least personally, if appropriate, I default to using honorifics b/c it makes people feel better. (Unless they for some reason want to be seen as your peer - which does happen rarely)
- 1y ago

beardyw 1y ago

'Using “you” in Korean is quite interesting since the direct translation 너 / neo is often too rude' This is most likely an equivalent to thee/thou which was considered rude to use for one's superiors or elders as in: "Don't tha "thee" me!" - it's ok for me to use for you but not t'other way round. Now many believe thou/thee to be respectful because of the bible, where in fact it is used as familiarity.

kijin 1y ago

Korean age is a hack that helps ease the friction that all those rules of seniority and different speech levels impose on us. It gives you an age bracket within which everyone is equal, once and for all, regardless of their exact date of birth. Your friend isn't suddenly going to speak down to you when he turns 7 and you're still 6, except perhaps as a joke. Both of you are 8 in Korean age, and will turn 9 at the exact same moment. This age bracket produces a stable peer group who can remain friends for life, regardless of when or where individuals went to school, got a job, or enlisted in the army -- all the other places where hierarchy can be imposed. Of course, the year is also important for reasons of superstition. There are still some elderly people who ask for the (Chinese zodiac) animal associated with your year of birth, instead of the year itself.

thaumasiotes 1y ago

I'm surprised they ask for the year directly. My impression is that in China, if you want to know someone's age, you ask for the animal of their birth year. That gives you the year mod 12, which you're expected to be able to resolve to a particular year yourself.

tdeck 1y ago
I've read that it's considered perfectly OK to ask someone's salary in China, so it's interesting that asking a person's birth year would be sensitive.

whensean 1y ago

From the perspective of national and social development, this is definitely a dross culture. This system similar to hierarchy seemingly increases the courtesy among people. However, it more often leads to age bullying, blind obedience to the elders, and hinders resistance and innovation. Influenced by Confucian culture, China doesn't have such a perverted etiquette system at all.

4gotunameagain 1y ago
Typical cultural superiority bias. Every way has its pros and cons. Having an age related hierarchy might have benefits like societal coherence or stability. I am not a proponent of it, I just acknowledge my inability to fully grasp the impact and ramifications as to label one as superior and the other as "perverted".
- cess11 1y ago
  If you think hierarchy is natural and good you're a conservative or some other kind of reactionary. Hierarchies invite revolt and need a lot of force to keep in place.
  - 4gotunameagain 1y ago
    I did not talk about natural, I did not talk about good. If you think there are no hierarchies everywhere, then we have a completely different worldview.
    - mock-possum 1y ago
      It’s sounds like we’re running into the is/ought problem - just because there is hierarchy doesn’t mean that’s the way it ought to be.
- skyscraperman 1y ago
  [flagged]

Noelia- 1y ago

I find it really interesting how much weight that simple question "What year were you born?" carries in Korean social life. A Korean friend once told me that it’s not about prying into your private life, it’s about figuring out how to talk to you and what to call you. It also made me realize that a lot of the small social details we take for granted might seem really jarring or even rude in another culture.

Leftium 1y ago

Koreans have some "hacks" to get around this (age-based) social hierarchy: 1. Some workplaces use English names (and even English language) so co-workers can speak/refer to each other without using the social hierarchy constructs built into the Korean language. 2. Social (partnered) dance clubs go by nicknames for the same reason. Even though I dance with them on a regular basis, I don't know most of my dance friends' real names. I'm not aware of any other country where dancers do this.

rafram 1y ago
> Some workplaces use English names (and even English language) so co-workers can speak/refer to each other without using the social hierarchy constructs built into the Korean language. That's so interesting. It reminds me very vaguely of Indians escaping the caste hierarchy by converting to Islam or Buddhism. Sometimes the easiest way out of a restrictive system in your culture is just to switch cultural contexts entirely.
kwillets 1y ago
Kakao ended the English names a year or so ago due to inevitable confusion, but now people are supposed to add the "nim" (dear) suffix to each other's Korean names instead, which sounds creepy. The funny part of the Kakao CEO asking to be called Brian is that there was a K-drama (Search WWW) with a fictional tech company, but they also made the CEO name Brian. I suspect if this idea had gone on every CEO would be called Brian.
- donkeylazy456 1y ago
  yeah i agree with being even with coworkers but calling them with english name sounds seriously cringe. I do not prefer.
- jjani 1y ago
  Never heard someone saying 님 sounds creepy, it's very commonplace in tech companies, Kakao was far from the first to introduce this. I've worked at a place where everyone was ..님 and no one cared.
1y ago

Leftium 1y ago

It can also be considered rude to use the more formal style of speech when the social hierarchy dictates the informal style should be used. The book Using Korean[1] gives a detailed explanation of how formal speech indicates social distance more than simple politeness: > [존댓말] indicates a psychological distance between the speaker and the hearer... a couple in a romantic relationship who normally use an intimate casual style with each other will suddenly switch to a formal style after they fight, to demonstrate the distance they feel from each other. From a related discussion: https://www.reddit.com/r/Korean/comments/vcusut/comment/icj2zje/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Korean/comments/vcusut/comment/icj2... [1]: https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=2ggVsnUCbiAC&lpg=PA17&pg=PA4#v=onepage&q=Distance%20versus%20politeness&f=false https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=2ggVsnUCbiAC&lpg=PA17&pg...

blissofbeing 1y ago
It's interesting that someone like a boss would be further away from you and not a friend, how would you talk to your boss that is also your friend?
- Leftium 1y ago
  I suppose it would depend on the exact people and circumstances: the "social distance" can be very subjective. - The same situation with different people or the same people in a different situation may result in different speech levels. - If an older person feels really close to a junior, they may even ask them to "lower their speech." There was a documentary about a much older Korean working for a very young boss. This resulted in a conflict: age hierarchy vs role hierarchy. They both spoke to each other in the formal style. And think about addressing a mix of people who are both above and below you in the hierarchy...
jjani 1y ago
That isn't about the social hierarchy, it's about the switch. If the couple would always use 존댓말 - which is not the norm nowadays but still a large enough minority that it's not weird - then obviously it'd be a switch to 반말 that would be shocking; in fact it would sound even worse to suddenly do so during a fight.

bitbasher 1y ago

Japanese also has a number of social systems and expectations that can be tricky to navigate as an outsider. When I was younger and studying Japanese I used to play a popular Japanese MMORPG. It was popular among middle aged individuals (25-50). I was lucky enough to meet a Japanese clan leader that invited me into one of the largest clans in the game. Fast forward a year or so-- and a new player joined the clan. One day the new player flipped out on me in our clan chat. Our clan leaders told her I wasn't Japanese and to cut me some slack. She refused to believe I was a foreigner. On the one hand I was proud. My Japanese was good enough for someone to think I wasn't a foreigner. On the other hand I was sad, I clearly did something wrong. The clan leader spoke to me in a 1:1 fashion and tried to explain. It wasn't the language I used, but more or less how I interacted with the more senior clan members. I would often suggest things we could do or ask if they wanted to do something. In reality, it was expected to do small talk and wait for senior clan members to suggest something to do. I was crossing some social boundary...

Llamamoe 1y ago
> I would often suggest things we could do or ask if they wanted to do something. In reality, it was expected to do small talk and wait for senior clan members to suggest something to do. I was crossing some social boundary... I know that this sort of shit happens in corporations and the government, but the idea that it crosses over into even multiplayer games makes me reconsider if I really want to ever visit Japan...
- neurostimulant 1y ago
  Big clans are basically companies with hierarchical power structure.
- thaumasiotes 1y ago
  Social structures still exist in social situations. I don't really see what the alternative would be. I found an interesting interview on youtube of someone who grew up in Japan and moved to Korea: > What is your favorite thing about Korea? > I find it comfortable that Koreans are honest about their thoughts. > In the beginning I was hurt a lot and it was hard because of how honest Koreans are > What do you think is the difference between Korea and Japan? > First of all I think there is a difference in personality > Since I was living in Japan, up until I was 18 years old, I had a typical Japanese personality > Back then I couldn't speak my mind [...] and dancing was the only way I could express myself > [...] and I also couldn't reject [someone/something] > when my friends said we should do something, I always said yes > after living in Korea, I felt a lot that I need to say what I want and don't want to do Given that it's unacceptable to reject what a peer wants to do in Japan, I can see where making suggestions to a superior would cause problems. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPqqwrZqjK8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPqqwrZqjK8

readthenotes1 1y ago

'Using “you” in Korean is quite interesting since the direct translation 너 / neo is often too rude.' That makes me wonder how the preferred third person pronoun movement works in Korea...

Leftium 1y ago
It doesn't really exist because Korean pronouns don't have any gender attached to them.
- readthenotes1 1y ago
  That's the best solution, of course. Almost never does it clarify...

JohnFen 1y ago

What would be the polite way to decline to answer the question? Is that even possible?

aspenmayer 1y ago
“I don’t give out that information (as a matter of principle/because my mother told me not to/because people close to me have been victims of identity theft/because I’m old enough to know better).” Or some variation thereof. It’s enough to say that you don’t because you choose not to, but some people will belabor the point until you give an answer that has the ring of finality and can communicate that it isn't a matter of debate, but a matter of conscience, or rationale, or whatever principle(s) guide you. Or you could provide a joke answer that is absurdly high or low or wrong, like saying that you weren’t born yesterday, or that you were born at night, but not last night, or in the day, but not yesterday. This might work for those who you are closer with personally, but some may find this kind of answer dismissive and will persist or get upset. If in doubt, use the principle-based approach I mentioned above instead or in addition to the joke one, as a way of showing that you’re answering in good faith and take their question seriously as asked.

daft_pink 1y ago

I've been told the one reason why Japanese is so hard to learn is because there is an underlying etiquette and social hierarchy built into the language and it is not simply being able to understand and speak the words. Native speakers tolerate errors when it's obvious someone is non-native, but become offended when they speak it perfectly, but screw up the social heirarchy, so it's extremely hard to progress beyond a certain point.

gyomu 1y ago
Heh that’s overstated. As a non Asian foreigner*, you get a lot of leeway for making mistakes when speaking Japanese, as it is somehow ingrained in the subconscious here that Japanese is very special and very complicated and a foreigner trying to speak it is already doing something near impossible. If your Japanese is near flawless except for the honorific register that would strike people as weird, but then what did you do to end up speaking flawless Japanese without ever properly internalizing honorific Japanese? *(If you are an Asian foreigner, you are subject to many other layers of prejudice unrelated to your language ability)
- thaumasiotes 1y ago
  My grandmother spent a lot of time in Japan, and she reported that everyone was very accommodating initially, but that over time the expectation developed that after being there for so long she should have learned the correct way to behave.
  - gyomu 1y ago
    Yes, but that’s more about manners and being part of a community than language skills. You can speak shit Japanese and still be involved with your local community and be accepted and appreciated, for sure.

lvl155 1y ago

Koreans from Korea often do not follow this rule outside of the country. They basically use it whenever it benefits them. So in essence this aspect of the culture is pretty much…BS.

dkga 1y ago

I find it surprising actually how much these seniority rules are well-defined in many cultures, but in Brazil there is strong variation - even in the same geography. For example, a colleague who is learning Brazilian Portuguese was under the impression that "você" and "tu" were the equivalent of "vous/tu" or "Sie/du". In reality, they are just different regional ways of saying the informal you. In Brazilian Portuguese is to call someone "o Senhor/a Senhora" based on their gender, with a singular third person declination. And in the countryside, it is common to hear people use "Doutor/Doutora" the same way they would use the normal formal language when addressing educated people or land-owners. Another example many people outside Brazil find interesting: in my family we were taught to never use the formal towards anyone. The rationale is that everyone is equal and that using the formal language was disrespectful because it created an artificial distance between us and the other person. We were also taught never to use the formal language when praying for the same reason. However, other people are taught to use the formal language towards bosses and elders, also with a respect rationale, and some other folks in Brazil (even from big cities) actually require that their children address them with formal language. So now when in doubt I use the formal language with people that are much older than I am although that feels utterly unnatural to me, but I always make people comfortable to use the informal with me as I personally find this to be more respectful. Just one more comment: in Brazil it is unfortunately the case that some offices have a standard treatment like "your excellency", etc, which are nominally meant to respect the office but in reality become a kind of test of compliance and obedience. I recall in particular one incident where an attorney presenting in front of the Supreme Court was severely reprimanded for not address justices with the proper term. Personally, I am not sure that required compliance with a style - by regulation or by societal expectations - is indeed "respect" if it is not matched with actions and posture that really reflect due consideration towards the other person.

inerte 1y ago
Or the judge who sued his condominium demanding its employees call him "doutor" (Your Honor)... As a Brazilian raised to not care about this stuff, I would say even rebelled a bit, it was weird to basically be required to do so once I reached adulthood. I remember getting in front of a sheriff and having to address him as "doutor". I remember talking to an intern in law firms and he corrected me when I addressed him by name saying, "No, it's DOUTOR Adriano". Gee, let's not even mention the medical field... veterinarians and nutritionists want to be called "doutor"...

OJFord 1y ago

A not dissimilar age thing I've found interesting is from India: it is (or can be? Big country) typical to age yourself by the year of life you're in, i.e. 1-based rather than 0-based, basically. On his birthday my grandfather in law said 'I am x years old! [...] Oh, no, x-1 complete.' It's funny these kinds of arbitrary systems for things we have, and never question, until you suddenly stumble into one that's slightly different.

xenadu02 1y ago

In the USA as a low-level employee address the company CEO as "heya phil, hows it going?". Then address your friend with "Hello Mr. Smith". In most cases you won't get a positive reaction out of either one of those (yes exceptions exist). How about this: address your husband/wife as "Mr/Mrs <lastname>", especially after a fight. Similarly when the kids have been doing something or you are frustrated with your partner say "your son did X". Every language has explicit and implicit rules for expressing honor, respect, and closeness. Informal systems can vary more often and be more fluid but they always exist.

drchickensalad 1y ago
Gotta love when you're in a 2,000 person public company, and you can still "heya Phil" despite not being a personal friend at all, and he even prefers it
losvedir 1y ago
I actually think "heya phil" is more the norm than not. Certainly in tech that's the case. For example, we address the CEO of the company I work at (small but public) by her first name. From tuning into investor calls from my days in finance it's even common at non-tech companies.
- DiggyJohnson 1y ago
  Small tech firms are notorious outliers when it comes to this though
  - deleted 1y ago
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- j-bos 1y ago
  Can attest, I work at a fortune 500 and have addressed c-suite-2 by their first names, also seen the CEO adressed by his first name in Q&As by commom employees.
90s_dev 1y ago

deadbabe 1y ago

Is it more or less beneficial to birth a Korean child on December 31 so they can be two years in Korean Age ASAP? Thinking about their career prospects, certain legal requirements etc. if older is better, it seems like you’d want to hit that December 31st birth date.

deleted 1y ago
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joshdavham 1y ago

How does this generally work with romantic relationships? Do people usually only start relationships if they are of the same age?

fxtentacle 1y ago
Typically the girl will pretend the guy to be older, if that isn't the case. That's why girls in movies and K-Pop groups always shout "Oppa!". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwmSjveL3Lc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwmSjveL3Lc And you might remember the Oppa that is Gangnam Style: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bZkp7q19f0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bZkp7q19f0
- quesera 1y ago
  > And you might remember the Oppa that is Gangnam Style: My cultural awareness, which is distinctly non-Asian, assumed that this "Oppa" had something to do with horses.
  - fxtentacle 1y ago
    What a brilliant comment :) I'm not sure if you're joking, but it certainly brightened up my day. That Gangnam Style song is about riding and the associated up and down motion, just not related to horses. In that scene where he's watching the horses, he's singing: "A true lady who is warm and human during the day, who is classy and knows how to enjoy a cup of coffee. But when night comes, her heart gets hot..." and then you see the horse moving its head up and down and he sings: "A lady who is kinky in that way" And then you see him with 2 girls in his arms and he's using rather suggestive language: "A man who one-shots ... his coffee. A man who won't let things cool down ... A man who bursts when night comes ... his heart. A man with few muscles and he is bulging ... with ideas." Also, if you pay attention to it, you can hear that both gangnam songs are littered with audio samples of him and her moaning, e.g: https://youtu.be/9bZkp7q19f0?feature=shared&t=151 https://youtu.be/9bZkp7q19f0?feature=shared&t=151 https://youtu.be/wcLNteez3c4?feature=shared&t=68 https://youtu.be/wcLNteez3c4?feature=shared&t=68 And then there's the famous elevator scene where his lyrics are: "A good woman appears calm, but knows how to have fun. She's reasonable and when it's the right time, she will let her hair down ..." https://youtu.be/9bZkp7q19f0?feature=shared&t=114 https://youtu.be/9bZkp7q19f0?feature=shared&t=114

unsignedint 1y ago

I despise the social construct that ties respect to age. As someone who’s biologically Japanese—and coming from a culture that shares similar values with Korean society in this regard—I often find it frustrating when dealing with other Japanese people. Some individuals will ask your age just so they can justify talking down to you. I’ve even had cases where someone was polite at first, but the moment they realized they were older, their behavior shifted entirely. That kind of attitude is a major pet peeve of mine—it honestly makes me want to pull my hair out. While the younger generation tends to care less about age differences among peers (and thankfully avoids this behavior), there are still far too many people who believe age alone gives them the right to act superior or pretend they know better. I strongly believe respect should be earned based on character, not age. I make a point to be polite to everyone, regardless of how old they are—and that’s why I don’t even bother asking.

haarolean 1y ago
Nowadays it seems more of a coping mechanism for fading relevance rather than respecting the actual competence.

sandworm101 1y ago

I did some work (military) with a couple asian nations during a multinational exercise. It was all done in english. What blew them away was how our honorifics changes not just according to the established hierarchies but according to location, dress and who else was within earshot. I had a junior guy from an asian nation shadowing me. He was shocked when my officer and I addressed each other by first names/callsigns. What stressed my shadow was how twenty minutes later, in a different room with different people, we switched to formal ranks. What further blew his mind was my explanation that breaks from these casual informalities would be a silent message. For instance, if a friend addressed me in private by my formal rank, I would know that I was in trouble ... or that someone was listening. He thought our culture was the more complicated. His culture had rules that everyone knew and followed. Our culture had rules that everyone knew but nobody seemed to follow.

pre2w 1y ago

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unstppbl 1y ago

I met a Korean classmate while studying Chinese together in China. We really hit it off, and on our first date she unexpectedly asked how old I was. When I told her I was a couple of years older, she gently explained that we couldn’t be together. Well.. I couldn’t understand it, feelings were mutual, it was like we were meant for each other, and all that was thrown because of age difference, how stupid.

OfficeChad 1y ago

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darkhorn 1y ago

This exists in all Uralic-Altaic languages; Turkish, Mongolian, Korean, Japanese, Finnish, Hungarian and Tungus. It is build in the language/culure.

RyanOD 1y ago

I'm a person of European descent married to a person of Korean descent. Her mother's age has always been a question mark. As she aged and her memory became less reliable, it became even moreso. Nevermind not being entirely certain of her actual birthday...

Drunkfoowl 1y ago

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