8 ms·

Rules for Negotiating a Job Offer (2016)

449 points by rzk 2y ago

neilv 2y ago
Dated 2016. I think the 2025 rules will be different, for most US tech job-seekers.
- CharlieDigital 2y ago
  Author's points are all still valid and worth the read.
- soneca 2y ago
  Which rules would be different in particular, you think?
  - Cerium 2y ago
    The information landscape has changed a bit - several large states now require posting clear salary bands, which many companies comply with in good faith. Some like Netflix post something useless (eg: "The range for this role is $100,000 - $720,000").
    - lotsofpulp 2y ago
      That isn’t useless, the $100k bottom number provides a lot of information to labor sellers.
    - packetslave 2y ago
      Netflix is a weird case, in that they let new hires pick the mix of stock vs. cash in their total compensation. Since the CA law requires posting the cash salary in the job offer, it really can be that wide of a range.
    - zerr 2y ago
      When given the range, overshoot the max so they can negotiate you down close to the max.
      - ZoomZoomZoom 2y ago
        "Why do we need a candidate that can't read or do basic math?" Also, usually the high bound is set to catch desperate overqualifieds into the job competing process, not to be actually paid. YMMV, speaking from experience in non-US job market culture.
        zerr 2y ago
        It's not about the basic math but negotiating if they can do better, also saying that they shouldn't even bother proposing you something in the lower part of the range. I deal with non-US shops as well, it is surprising how many of them can and do pay US rates when asked.
  - neilv 2y ago
    Sorry, that was a confusing choice of term by me, when the article already used the term "rule". I mean the courtship dynamics. When it's a buyer's market -- or the buyers think it is -- some of the candidate tactics are going to play differently. Even the old advice that, once the company decides they want you, that changes the dynamics, and now opens up negotiation. The dynamics maybe don't change as much as they used to. If candidate A doesn't take the offer, B, C, D, etc., are lined up and waiting, and probably not going anywhere. I suspect that a lot of techbros who only know/remember the sellers market of a few years ago are going to be hit by the pendulum swing, when a lot of employers will be similarly cocky and fickle.
    - reset0684 2y ago
      Midwest, not Silicon Valley, but that's my current experience. I've already got a job and just got an offer which would be a small pay cut. So, I told them I'm excited about the work, etc but I just can't take a pay cut. They remained firm that they couldn't budge on salary even a little. Then remained firm as I asked for a signing bonus (denied) and reduced hours (denied). This company doesn't do stock at all and they've already got unlimited PTO so no room to negotiate there. Meanwhile, their interview feedback indicated I did very well. They unanimously wanted me, and I slightly exceeded their technical expectations for the role. Seems tougher than I remember from before covid. (Throwaway since I don't want this tied to my name for my current or future employer to find.)
      - ryandrake 2y ago
        Yea, this has been pretty much my experience through years of job searching. Very rare to find a company willing to negotiate.
      - angra_mainyu 2y ago
        Can agree that right now the market is tough. Some years ago there were job posts left and right, salaries were high and hiring was smooth - now there are comparatively fewer jobs posted, salaries are almost half of what it was before, and many don't even write back. Many companies are even turning away from remote work. It used to be very doable to find a job in the US from Europe, now everyone is demanding you have work authorization and can be in the US.
- reactordev 2y ago
  This has been true since 216, let alone in 2016 or now in 2025. It will still be true in 20,216.
  - ivanmontillam 2y ago
    I agree, if you extract the "timeless fundamentals" from each one of these paragraphs, it will remain relevant anytime, anywhere. As long as human nature remains, the advice will still be valid.
- nmd 2y ago
  I just went through the job hunting (labour selling!) process for a tech role in a HCOL city in US and every point in the article matched with my experience. As another commenter mentioned, the difference is these days you have bands on job listings and then levels.fyi and blind (for larger tech companies) balances out some of the information asymmetry.
CharlieDigital 2y ago
Lots of good gems > And yet, when people talk about the labor market, they think “oh, a company wants to give me a job! What a relief!” As though having a job were in itself some special privilege for which a company is the gatekeeper. > > Dispel yourself of this mindset. > > A job is just a deal. It is a deal between you and a company to exchange labor for money (and other things you value). > > Negotiating is a natural and expected part of the process of trying to make a deal. It’s also a signal of competence and seriousness. Companies generally respect candidates who negotiate, and most highly attractive candidates negotiate (if for no other reason, because they often have too many options to choose from). I'm far from a great negotiator, but there are definitely lots of good lessons from here that I've learned the hard way over time and through experience.
- ivanmontillam 2y ago
  One of the greatest gems I got from a blog post once posted back in HN (I can't find it anymore, unfortunately) was about a guy getting a job at Google (or ex-Googler), and he dropped the following (I'm paraphrasing, of course): > Treat yourself as a business and every job offer as a business deal. Every job offer is a deal, a business deal that must remain carefully balanced win-win. If you let it slip, by getting too much work and not the required promotion or salary bump, it will become a win-lose deal (you on the losing end). It was a short post, but that piece of advice has been with me for more than 10 years now.
- davely 2y ago
  > Companies generally respect candidates who negotiate Is this really the case? If a company is giving you an offer, presumably they want to hire you. At that point, does the recruiter, your hiring manager, your skip level, the CTO, the CEO even care at that point? Does this respect ever come into play in future performance reviews? I personally don’t think so, but I’ve only ever worked for larger companies. I’ve always thought you should negotiate because you’re potentially leaving money on the table, since companies will often try to lowball your offer.
  - bdangubic 2y ago
ivanmontillam 2y ago
One of the sentences at the very start caught my eye: > I thought to myself: why is there so little actionable advice out there about negotiation? There's a wealth of actionable negotiation advice if you know where to look, like Harvard Business Review and Harvard Law, First Round Review, among others. One of the big pieces on negotiation I got from Harvard[0], from their Program on Negotiation. I did not attend Harvard, but reading two or three of their articles a week goes a long way. -- [0]: https://www.pon.harvard.edu/uncategorized/what-is-anchoring-in-negotiation/ https://www.pon.harvard.edu/uncategorized/what-is-anchoring-...
- steele 2y ago
  Getting to Yes and Bargaining for Advantage are also good reads related to this topic
  - ghaff 2y ago
    Getting to Yes is a good very short book that has some gems in it. We used it in some business school class or other I took.
stared 2y ago
I have been recommending this post over and over - in a blog post from 2016 on going from academia to data science (https://p.migdal.pl/blog/2016/03/data-science-intro-for-math-phys-background https://p.migdal.pl/blog/2016/03/data-science-intro-for-math...), via email, in person. It helped quite a lot of people - especially women, who had a mindset that they should accept they should accept the offer. A thought that one can (and should) negotiate was a game-changer. Sometimes they were shocked that an ask for 25% more was accepted with no questions.
1a527dd5 2y ago
The best advice I found was in 'Never Split the Difference'. The rest is me being honest and direct.
- mizzao 2y ago
  Yep, I've read a lot of negotiation books and that's the one that explains all the other ones. Everything else (including this article) is a specific case of the models described in that book.
  - 3eb7988a1663 2y ago
    I bounced on that book pretty quickly, so maybe I need to give it another attempt. It started off so generic and, "Here are my expert qualifications and anecdotes".
    - Seattle3503 2y ago
      Yeah I rolled my eyes at that, but publishers basically require the front 10% of non-fiction be like that. It's for the people walking through book stores and picking up books to browse.
      - ilrwbwrkhv 2y ago
        Thats why we need disruption in the books publishing industry
        ghaff 2y ago
        You have it. You can self-publish. Publishers are not actually idiots. By and large, they know what sells.
        ilrwbwrkhv 2y ago
        Self publishing doesn't work because there is no filter for quality or editing.
andrewstuart 2y ago
I've negotiated hundreds of salaries for developers and tech people. The key to negotiating is to get to a deal that both parties feel happy with - if you “win” a negotiation through power then you will likely find later you lost when you get paid back for winning through strength. Here is what I know about negotiating: 1: know in advance the salary that you want 2: aim for a salary that is not at the high end, not at the low end 3: your target salary should be one that you will feel satisfied with if you get the job - you do not want to get the job and then be unhappy and feeling like you undersold yourself an looking over your shoulder for the next job. 4: it is a good idea to ask for a salary range - typically $5K to $10K. you can say "I'm looking for $150K to $160K but it depends on what the role is" - this gives you some room to negotiate and helps avoid overpricing yourself. 5: if you feel that your salary target is fair, then stick to that - when the time comes that they ask you how much you want - state what you want and explain why you think it is fair. 6: if you get negotiated down, explain again that you think your target number is fair and explain why. explain that given that the number is a fair market rate then you're not moving down. 7: be willing to accept that you do not get the job as an outcome of asking for a fair salary - at that point shrug and move on. 8: if you are the start of your career then money should not matter at all - find a job that will allow you to hone your craft and learn key skills - this is the attitude you should have for your first five years. After that, you will be able to negotiate on the strength of your skills and experience. Remember negotiation of salary should not be about a win/lose attitude - if either party feels that someone won and someone lost, then that will be a bad start to the relationship. Negotiating salary is about finding a salary that both employer and employee feel happy at. If you are an employer, remember that every dollar you pay ABOVE the requested salary buys you good will and enthusiasm. Every dollar you offer BELOW the requested salary does the inverse. Also avoid the "If you do well we will pay you more in 3 months" - just pay straight up front that amount.
- ivanmontillam 2y ago
  > if you “win” a negotiation through power then you will likely find later you lost when you get paid back for winning through strength. Could you please provide an example of said scenario? > if either party feels that someone won and someone lost, then that will be a bad start to the relationship. Negotiating salary is about finding a salary that both employer and employee feel happy at. Yes, I second this. It once happened to me that I "won" by getting an over-budgeted salary, but had to quit 3 days later because one of the bosses leaked in a meeting that they intended to overwork me since they felt hustled by me during the salary negotiation. Said and done, they assigned me more work than initially scoped, as to adjust the "bang for the buck" balance (and had to quit shortly after that).
taklimakan 2y ago
This is all very interesting, but is complete fiction for most readers. 99% of job seekers aren’t going to receive competing offers from multiple companies conveniently at the same time.
- mixmastamyk 2y ago
  Right, I've received one job offer in the last decade. One. Took me a year and a half of searching to get it. Don't skip the degree or get older. ;-)
  - hobs 2y ago
    3 companies in a row I got recruited by folks from other companies - skipped the degree and about to turn 40, so older is relative - the biggest diff I have had is I am obvious and honest that I am always looking and actively build the network, especially the youngins - I have gotten 4 jobs (and its accelerating given the last 3) from folks I helped teach or train in the past who went on to do something interesting.
    - mixmastamyk 2y ago
      Hmmm, the nugget about focusing on younger folks you've trained sounds interesting, I hadn't previously thought of that. However, there have been very few juniors around in my last few jobs. Maybe because they were contracts.
- jckahn 2y ago
  Seriously. Getting even one underwhelming offer is beating the odds these days.
  - echelon 2y ago
    This article must've been written in Spring 2022. Tech hiring is now like 2008 or post-dotcom. The question is whether it will return to what it once was. The big tech companies are monopolies, no longer afraid that they have to employ "all the engineers" to prevent competition. ZIRP isn't there to give rise to startups, or to give the tech companies unlimited leeway in development. If interest rates drop or big tech is broken up, we might see a sharp rise in salaries. But now there's also more competition from overseas, both in terms of great talent and competition from large international players. edit: the article was from 2016, and can confirm. I was making bank then and getting free at-work massages, boba, and towel service.
xyst 2y ago
Very old advice (2016). Definitely very good in that period of time though. I suppose it’s relevant today for some job posts. But thanks to transparency in pay regulations from states such as Colorado. Pay is advertised up front. You know what you are worth. Find jobs/companies that fit that ideal number. Then pop off in interview(s).
neilv 2y ago
> Rule #5 of negotiation: don’t be the decision-maker. Even if you don’t particularly care what your friends/family/husband/mother thinks, by mentioning them, you’re no longer the only person the recruiter needs to win over. There’s no point in them trying to bully and intimidate you; the “true decision-maker” is beyond their reach. It's a very old thing in general, not just in job-hunting. And sometimes "I have to discuss it with my spouse" is literally for real. But if someone says it, but the listener doesn't think it's for real, then the speaker sounds like either: * from a culture in which it's mutually understood as a nicety, not to be taken literally; or * a bullshitter. The former is very Californian stereotype, incidentally.
- crazygringo 2y ago
  I don't know why a listener wouldn't think it's for real? A new job can involve relocation, or if it's in the same city, prevent the spouse from a desired relocation. Not to mention people do tend to evaluate major life decisions with trusted friends etc. Discuss whether to job-hop now or wait to see if something better shows up in six months. I'm intrigued by your perspective that someone would assume this was non-literal or a bullshitter? I mean yes, it might be buying time, but as a recruiter why would you even care? The person wants extra time, they've given a valid reason for it, so you give it to them within reason unless it's an emergency and the position needs someone in the chair on Monday and there's another candidate who can take it. I don't think they would bother to think about it any more deeply than that.
  - neilv 2y ago
    Of course most married people considering a job offer would discuss it, but that doesn't mean the person making the claim isn't actually just using a delaying tactic. (For example, maybe they already discussed it with their spouse. Or they're going to discuss it in the next hour, but they are saying this when their goal is to effectively delay for a week.) That's just one example of commonplace lying. A lot of people will openly lie, and think that's normal. Even most of these advice articles for job-hunting are full of habitual corporate-standard lying. But not all people are like that, and don't want to hire corporate-standard liars.
semiquaver 2y ago
in [2016]
__turbobrew__ 2y ago
Here is my negotiation tactic: “I see on levels.fyi that people of my level make X dollars, I want the top of that range” And magically I got 25% more TC. Only works for big enough companies with salary datapoints online. It is kind of crazy how there is a bifurcation of TC between those who bothered to negotiate and those who didn’t. Being on the inside I know there are ranges for positions and if you push you can pretty much always get to the max for your range, obviously the recruiters will not give you a max TC offer right away.
- jghn 2y ago
  Don't even need to make an argument. "I'll work for you if you give me X" "Here is X-Y" "No thanks"
dangus 2y ago
> If you must divulge what you’re making Never do that. > Companies will ask about your current compensation at different stages in the process This is not legal in many states, 44% of the US population lives in states where companies asking your salary is not legl. Also, the exploding offer advice is terrible. It won't work. The company will just drop the offer. The actual advice is to decide quickly. I also think that gaining some chump change during the negotiation is somewhat pointless as companies will just equalize salary bands over time. Let's say you win $5-10k additional salary during negotiation. Great, now your second year's salary increase is only going to be 2% instead of 5%. I think the real advice in the age of states having salary transparency laws is to not apply to jobs that don't have a salary range listed in the job description.
- ryandrake 2y ago
  I've had a company actually halt the recruiting process because I wouldn't share my current salary. They asked (as they all do), and I did a standard polite "I'd rather not share my current compensation, please make an offer you feel is a good starting point." They then said, well we'd rather not make an offer without knowing this baseline. And that was that. Sure, I guess I could have just made up a fake (high) number, but I wasn't too thrilled about what I saw about the company during the interviews, so it didn't bother me at all. If a company is being shitty during the interview process, they're probably going to be shitty to work for.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- wrs 2y ago
  The equalization thing may be theoretically true, but in a cumulative 25 years of managing at big companies, I’ve never seen anyone get equalized down, just get slower raises. You’re definitely better off getting overpaid at the beginning. If the offer is 25% high, it might take five years to equalize. And the present-value premium of money isn’t zero anymore!
  - dangus 2y ago
    Slower raises is exactly what I mean. Perhaps it’s better to start high but I think the impact is moot. In reality every company has a budget range and it’s quite narrow.
palata 2y ago
I looked for resources a few years ago and found a post by a software engineer talking about "Fearless Salary Negotiation" [1]. The engineer said: "it's a small book, cost me around 40 bucks which were immediately compensated by the fact that I managed to negotiate a higher salary". I wanted to ask for a raise: I had been working in that startup for 4 years and had never had a raise. I thought "if that book helps me get a raise of a few bucks per month, that will pay for it". It didn't go as planned: I followed the instructions in the book, my boss spent an hour bullshitting me and I didn't get a raise. So I sent my resignation the next day. The boss called me back, and I got a substantial raise and a bonus (to compensate for the shitty salary I had been having before, it was not a miracle). All that to say that this book did not make me a pro negotiator. But it made me understand how salary negotiation works (reading it, I felt like a child: it only says common sense stuff, but I had been doing everything wrong my whole life). And it gave me the confidence to actually ask for a raise. Totally worth it. [1]: https://www.amazon.com/Fearless-Salary-Negotiation-step-step/dp/0692568689 https://www.amazon.com/Fearless-Salary-Negotiation-step-step...
- stonecharioteer 2y ago
  While that has worked for me too, I find that negotiating by resignation isn't going to address other issues such as those that bolster the unfair salary. Yes. You got what you wanted, but now they know you played a wildcard and they want you gone on their terms. Or they want to extract the maximum work from you.
  - palata 2y ago
    Just to be clear: my point is not that the book taught me to negotiate by resignation :-). The book gave me confidence to negotiate, and I did not even mention resigning as part of the negotiation. Only after the negotiation (a few days later), I chose to resign because of the result of the negotiation (which was therefore a failure). What the book brought to me confidence: I would have resigned without asking for a raise, saying "well it's time for me to move on" and not "I'm leaving because of the salary". Hence my boss would not have made an offer. The book also helped me understand how salary negotiation works, and how it is "normal": the recruiter does it all the time, they are used to it, and you may actually look more professional if you know how to talk about compensation than if you just accept whatever they say like a junior. > but now they know you played a wildcard and they want you gone on their terms. Or they want to extract the maximum work from you. Not at all, in my case :-).
bongodongobob 2y ago
Unless you're in like the top 1% in your field, there is no negotiation. Must be nice I guess.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- ryandrake 2y ago
  Yea, I kind of think a lot of these "Just negotiate, bro" posts are from people who are extremely strong candidates already, like they invented the entire field that the company plays in. Or their PhD thesis was on the exact thing the company is trying to do. For the rest of us, companies can take us or leave us--they aren't going to get into some bidding war for some generic, but strong senior skilled candidate.
  - ornornor 2y ago
    That’s scarcity mindset and it decimates your potential for negotiation. If you really truly believe you are a commodity and have nothing at all to offer compared to any other candidate, it’s worth either learning something new to get out of that commodity category and/or look at your experience + knowledge outside your core specialty and market that better. It sounds cliché but there is nobody like you. We all have unique experiences (life + professional), hobbies, knowledge no one else has or at least not in that particular combination. That’s your « unfair advantage » as some call it and you absolutely can use it to your advantage. The choice is yours.
    - bongodongobob 2y ago
      The one time I tried to negotiate for a director position they responded along the lines of "Oh we're sorry if we implied that this was a negotiation. You can accept or decline the offer by the end of the week."
      - ornornor 2y ago
        I’m an average software engineer and I can’t remember a time where I took a job I didn’t negotiate the salary on. Companies that refused to negotiate were the last offers I’d consider and I end up not taking their offers. I was often better paid than my peers. And my professional accomplishments are far from exceptional, I’ve never worked for any companies you’d know, I have gaps in my CV.
waltbosz 2y ago
I read some advice that suggested asking the salary band during salary negotiations and that many HR departments won't hesitate to share. I tried this while interviewing for my current job and sure enough they shared. Lesson learned: you can ask and the worst they will probably do is say no, but it's very valuable knowledge if they share.
- staticautomatic 2y ago
  Important questions most reasonable people can answer: Can you share the salary range? Are you targeting the mid-point? Are you able to make an offer at the top of the range if you want to?
foresto 2y ago
Related: How to sabotage your salary negotiations efforts before you even start https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37239747 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37239747
parpfish 2y ago
I wish I could take this advice, but my imposter syndrome is just too strong and you cant just turn it off with logical explanations. By the time I get an offer, I already feel like I’m already uncomfortable about all the bragging I’ve had to do to hype myself up. Asking for more in a negotiation is just a recipe for even worse guilt during the onboarding process (which is already a fraught time for feeling like an idiot).
- sgustard 2y ago
  Imagine meeting co-workers on your first day: "This is parpfish, a rock star who is making twice what all of you make. He is one of those 10x engineers you all hear about. Just stay out of his way while he re-architects all our systems!" I think I should have taken the lower offer?
  - parpfish 2y ago
    The hope would be to get an intro like “This is parish, a normal 1x coder that makes a normal amount of money so please be forgiving when he doesn’t understand something”.
- jaggederest 2y ago
  The simple thing I tell people to do who are uncomfortable with more complex negotiation is, just before you're about to accept the offer, just ask if they can increase it any. Just straight up say "Is there any room to increase this offer?" If they say no, just accept it. If not, let them increase it, then accept that increased offer. I've gotten an increase at a significant majority of companies doing this and it's essentially zero cost.
  - dockerd 2y ago
    How many different companies have you worked for?
    - jaggederest 2y ago
whall6 2y ago
Having worked in investment banking (a job where your only true value add is your network and ability to negotiate) I would like to say two things: 1. I second everything in the article. 2. You would be surprised to learn how important rule #7 is. We would build entire presentations that we would provide to the other side of the table in negotiations just to reinforce our points. Basically putting ourselves in the position of “hey we’re on your side, but look at the numbers; our hands are tied!”. Having a non-confrontational attitude and providing specific reasons for why you are asking for things makes a big difference in negotiations. (Definitely don’t need to be building presentations for potential employers though… unless it’s for contracts large enough that you’d need a lawyer and wouldn’t need OP’s advice anyways!)
- madebylaw 2y ago
  Classic banker tactic, I love it. “Overwhelm them with data”
refurb 2y ago
This is quality advice. It approaches the process with the other party in mind. I’ve put a few of these into practice and they work quite well. Once you’ve made it to the offer stage most companies want to close. You have more ability to push back on offers than you think.
iamleppert 2y ago
When negotiating with a startup, especially a founder, always ask for two offers: one with a higher equity offer and another with a higher cash offer. This allows the other party to still feel in control of the negotiation process but tells you two important pieces of information: the first is what the “top” number is for both equity and cash. The second is how much they really are valuing the equity portion. Depending on the response, you can argue for both higher cash or equity, or both. I often ask what is preventing from giving both higher cash and higher equity? Often times I’ve gotten both.
- madebylaw 2y ago
  This is good advice. As a technical founder I have been through many offer ceremonies and I would always make 2 versions of an offer, one equity weighted and the other base salary weighted. The math should be easy if you’ve already had a priced round and you should be telling the candidate the price and fma of your equity anyway. I would say 90% took the higher base. And I wouldn’t up both unless they were a truly great candidate.
renewiltord 2y ago
For startups, I'm pretty upfront about the fact that I don't negotiate but if they go under my activation price I will simply decline. It's a one and done deal and we can revisit months later. The range of cost I'll accept is quite large (though this part I don't communicate). I don't mind working for $200k annualized on things I really enjoy and I don't mind working on things I enjoy less for $800k annualized and so on. I have an internal sliding scale and I'm quite clear that I don't really need to work on any specific thing. Then I just take the gig if it meets my internal criteria. In my experience, it isn't about making a $20k more now or whatever. It's about making a million more because you're invested in something worthwhile etc. etc.
casey2 2y ago
If the people spent half as much time building skills as they spent creating, reading and following random "rules" then the climate change, homelessness, tech employment crisis etc would all be solved problems.
- pythonguython 2y ago
  We’re talking about spending a couple of hours learning the basics of negotiation for a likely 10-20% increase in salary/equity. That’s certainly not making the difference in solving the world’s problems. If you’re speaking more broadly than just salary negotiation - I’d just say that humans aren’t perfect machines. We care about solving problems but we also have desire for money, power, status and following random rules.
drekipus 2y ago
I had a simple formula: "I feel like I am contributing at least $X value to the company. If I am then it makes sense to pay me that, and if not I'd like to know how we can get there." It starts a discussion and it's more honest: if I am not worth that much then tell me how I can be more valuable. I have had a pay rise every year from this conversation but my company is very flexible and successful, so mileage may vary. I find all other approaches to me gimmicky and tricks, and somewhat dishonest in some way.
hardwaregeek 2y ago
With most tech career advice on the internet, I would check to see if it was written before 2022. If so, I'd take it with a grain of salt. I wrote tech advice in the ZIRP times. It was a very different market. Negotiation is still a valid tactic but there's a lot more to lose and a lot fewer offers than in 2021.
- whatshisface 2y ago
  Negotiation isn't a tactic, it's the basic thing you are doing.
  - ghaff 2y ago
    Depends on your position. I was employed but the company was going down the tubes when I got my last job through a connection. I didn't really negotiate and the one thing I would have liked to have negotiated (paid time off) was made clear was not on the table even before I said anything. And the offer was not FAANG levels but was incredibly good relative to what I was making.
aclimatt 2y ago
This is all great advice especially at the 101 level. At the 201 level, you can start to skip a lot of these formalities by straightening out the information asymmetry and really having a crisp position on the value exchange. - Your #1 goal should actually be knowing the top of the range of what this role is worth in the market. Once you figure that out, the whole "don't say the first number" rule is BS. Set expectations at the high water mark and then your job isn't to negotiate on salary; it's to negotiate if you're worth it - Now that you know the maximum price this role (or product, or service -- it's all the same!) can be set to, you need to convince the other side that you deliver the requisite amount of value to justify the price. Like the article said, talk about your impact. Your BATNA. Your opportunity cost. All of these things are real and support why you are worth it Once you transition from negotiating on price alone to negotiating ROI, everything changes. Try your best to solve the asymmetry, set the price and move on, find your leverage, and then make a compelling case. That's how you win
iamiamiam 2y ago
Companies should offer the best offer in the first place. If the candidates still negotiates, either he is not a fit or you will not make him/her happy/loyal either, the best option is pass.
ein0p 2y ago
Rule #1 is: have leverage, and understand your leverage. Rule #2: be prepared to walk away There are no other rules.
0xbadcafebee 2y ago
> A company’s goal is to hire someone who will become an effective employee and produce more value than their cost. This isn't true. They have no clue how to measure your value output. A company's goal is to make sure it has the staff to get its work done so it can sell its thing. A hiring manager's goal is to find someone to do the thing they don't have time/staff for. They will pay somewhere in the realm of whatever the market pays, depending on the "philosophy" of the hiring manager, engineering director, finance people, etc. I recently interviewed for two jobs in different locations. Both remote, both companies in mid-tier locations in terms of salary. Same type of job, same kind & size of company, same tech, same problems to solve. One was offering 40K more than the other. I wasn't going to produce 40K more value for one than the other. Hiring and salary is just not a very smart process. They have the budget they have, and the market is what it is.
- msteffen 2y ago
  Yes! I wrote my own response, but your post made me realize the most important piece of missing advice: if you want a great offer, interview at a company with lots and lots of money
  - 0xbadcafebee 2y ago
    Generally speaking, yes, companies with more money can pay more. But there's plenty of companies with lots of money, yet their teams have no budget. And it depends if you came in through a recruiter or not, or are a contractor or not, or if it's a startup throwing around cash or being thrifty. Start by applying to the ones that list a high range, and then the companies with lots of money, and then the rest. I've found that if they're a startup based out of a high-income city, they're most likely to throw money at you. Larger companies based out of high-income cities have to be more stingy and will limit based on your location, but you can push for more. A corporate hiring structure will often enforce salary caps based on title, so if you ask for too much, they may have to invent a new title for you and get it justified to their executive leadership, which is politically fraught. So if you get to the top of the salary band, don't push hard, or they will be in a corner and have to choose between you (a near-impossible candidate) and a candidate they can actually hire.
msteffen 2y ago
It’s funny, I switched from engineering to management a few years ago, and as part of learning to be a manager I really had to learn to negotiate (Avery Pennarun, founder of Tailscale, describes Eng managers as professional negotiators, which I think is at least partly true). I loved this article. There’s a book on negotiation called “Getting to Yes” that uses a different framework, which became my preferred way to think about negotiation: The goal of a negotiation is to strike an agreement that both parties are happy about. The stereotypical negotiation, “I won’t go a cent below $10,” “well I won’t go a cent above $8” is bad negotiation because even if they meet at $9, neither is happy about it. Instead, the effective negotiator thinks creatively about what would make them happy and asks if it’s available. As much as I basically agree with it, I would cast the advice in this article differently. Here’s my take, for what it’s worth: - Re. all the author’s advice about withholding information: you may not be happy if one day you find out that you’re being paid 30% below market (though maybe you won’t care—know what you care about! It will help you negotiate more effectively). The ideal solution here, though, is to know about the market! Consult levels.fyi, talk to your friends, maybe interview from time to time before you’re really looking. - Re. Don’t be the decision-maker: this is a useful rhetorical tactic, often also called “bad cop,” and it’s not really negotiation-specific but you can bring it into a negotiation if it helps you (at one startup, our co-founder would say on sales calls, “let me check with my sales team” when he was definitely the whole sales team). Honestly, IMO it’s only really useful if you’re trying to placate someone, which you hopefully shouldn’t be when you’re weighing their offer, but you’re welcome to use it if you have social anxiety about pissing off the recruiter (you probably won’t, but I understand the worry) - Re. stay positive: …yes? The goal is to get to a deal you’re both happy with. If you’re already not happy, then the negotiation is already over. The effective negotiator walks away before getting mad—why burn a bridge over one deal not panning out? - Have alternatives: honestly this is the main thing. I don’t know how much there is to say but anyone will understand you not being happy with a deal that’s already not your best option.
ericrallen 2y ago
Based on the website, was this published in 2016? The job market in 2016 is unrecognizable to anyone who has had to look for a job recently. It is absolutely brutal out there right now, and this feels a bit detached from reality.
- ptero 2y ago
  Conditions change. Sometimes you have to tread very carefully, but even then a soft negotiation check is usually worth it. My 2c.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
agold97 2y ago
I just skimmed, so not sure if this was mentioned. It's pretty basic, but BE FAIR. It goes a LONG way and is (sometimes) hard to clock. I was offered something in my contract, and I misread the offer (not because it wasn't clear, I literally just skipped over a couple of words). Subsequently, I continued on with negotiations and never mentioned it as a concern. It wasn't detrimental to my offer, and I knew I'd be fine with accepting that term, but it was sort of an annoying term. I knew if I went back to it after the 3rd round of negotiations and negotiated it, then it just wasn't fair. I later told my boss about it and he appreciated it a lot. I have an amazing and fair relationship with my boss.
Pooge 2y ago
For a company I've interviewed with, I've been asked twice a salary range and declined both times. I was even transparent for the 2nd time (which happened months later) and answered that it's not in my interest to give a number first. Well, I received an offer from them and I would have undercut myself by 30%. This is perhaps—or perhaps not—an extreme example, but I only applied what I was told in the negotiation articles and books I've read. When you read a book, you're going to think "It's just fantasy; no way this is going to happen to me" but if you actually apply that knowledge it can truly work in your favor. I also declined an offer 2 months beforehand because the salary was ridiculously low, despite being unemployed at the time. Want is fine, need is not.
- hummingn3rd 2y ago
  I am a bit confused by not talking about the salary right away, I have seen advice like yours and in this article about not giving the number fisrt but the opposite in other articles saying to leverage the anchoring bias by giving a high number first. That would help raising the following offers. Both approaches seem to make sense so I am not sure what to choose.
  - ornornor 2y ago
    I’m also ambivalent because you risk investing in a time consuming interview process only to find out they’re offering .5 of what you deemed the minimum you’d take.
  - 1oooqooq 2y ago
    are you a vc level with visibility of salaries in all the company orgs? if not, just stay silent or you will undercut yourself. working class never knows their value, by design.
    - therealdrag0 2y ago
      You can get a lot of data points online though from levelsfyi or blind.
coopykins 2y ago
I found this article at a time where I had the opportunity to accept two job offers, so I had nothing to lose by pushing for more salary. The negotiation went well and got a substantial increase in the final offer on company A. On the other hand, company B dropped their offer. So watch out, if company B had been my only option I would have lost my opportunity. I was clear from the beginning that I had another offer at hand, to use as leverage.
jeffrallen 2y ago
Just a data point: I once avoided giving the first number, and when pushed into it, gave a ridiculously high number for a job I really wanted. The HR guy said, "no that's too high". Well duh, idiot. You make a big story about how you can't possibly move forward until I tell you something, I'm going to tell you something, and you're not going to like it. I waited a day to cool off and think hard, and called the guy back to say, "Your colleagues have selected me, I've proven I'll be able to do this job, and they told you they want me to. I told you, make me an offer. You instead required me to make an offer, and look where it got us? Now do as I asked, make me an offer, and we'll see. I won't be offended, this is a hard post to fill, and we both want this to work, so just try, will you?" Hardest phone call I ever made, but worth it. I saved my colleagues from having to go find another candidate, and got myself a job I wanted for the right price.
pkdpic 2y ago
He's not a perfect figure but I always really valued Haseebs perspective and energy. I used to have access to an old lecture of his explaining memory management through whiteboard sketches of original mario that I really loved in addition to dozens of energetic insightful lectures on foundational computer science concepts that he basically did for free before his AirBnB position. I think he played a big role for a lot of pre-pandemic bootcamp imposters like me. But seeing this pop back up on HN I'm wondering how radically the tech world / job market has changed. I've been hiding in kushy underpaid remote jobs basically since the pandemic so I have no real idea whats going on out there. How applicable is this perspective to the present day market for software engineers? How much have things fundamentally changed?
1970-01-01 2y ago
>oh, a company wants to give me a job! What a relief!” As though having a job were in itself some special privilege for which a company is the gatekeeper. A global recession is happening. Let's see if this advice will withstand the times or will age like milk. I predict the latter; the Great Depression wasn't fake news.
KronisLV 2y ago
Oh hey, this uses PT fonts, I quite like them: https://fonts.google.com/specimen/PT+Sans https://fonts.google.com/specimen/PT+Sans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PT_Fonts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PT_Fonts I'd actually use them as my main programming font if the dot (.) character wasn't a bit too small at smaller font sizes.
pjdemers 2y ago
I've always asked for better non-monetary things in writing: title, spot on the org chart, automatic promotion soon, which parts of the product and stack I will work on, even as trivial as whether my desk will have a window. I state with constant certainty that those things are more important to me than a bigger paycheck. Most of the time I was offered far more money (in one case, 2 years pay signing bonus) in return for my agreeing to accept an offer with none of those things in writing.
Tainnor 2y ago
This was written in 2016. The job market in 2016 was basically "you can throw a stone and find somebody looking for a developer". These days, the market is so different that I'm not sure if the same advice is still relevant. In addition, some of this kind of advice has always struck me as particularly US-centric and I doubt it all applies equally well in e.g. Europe. You don't get very far here by not sharing your initial salary expectations early on, I think.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
hellisothers 2y ago
I clicked through to buy this book for future reference and discovered it was the guy I paid as a negotiation coach for my last job. It was expensive but extremely worth it, I’d do it again at 2x the price. Strong recommendation for Josh.
- JoshDoody 2y ago
  :waves: Reading through the thread and saw your comment. Just wanted to say hi, I'm glad you had a good experience, and say thanks for the kind words. Hope you are doing well!
adamjoan512 2y ago
[flagged]

449 points by rzk 2y ago

neilv 2y ago

Dated 2016. I think the 2025 rules will be different, for most US tech job-seekers.

CharlieDigital 2y ago
Author's points are all still valid and worth the read.
soneca 2y ago
Which rules would be different in particular, you think?
- Cerium 2y ago
  The information landscape has changed a bit - several large states now require posting clear salary bands, which many companies comply with in good faith. Some like Netflix post something useless (eg: "The range for this role is $100,000 - $720,000").
  - lotsofpulp 2y ago
    That isn’t useless, the $100k bottom number provides a lot of information to labor sellers.
  - packetslave 2y ago
    Netflix is a weird case, in that they let new hires pick the mix of stock vs. cash in their total compensation. Since the CA law requires posting the cash salary in the job offer, it really can be that wide of a range.
  - zerr 2y ago
    When given the range, overshoot the max so they can negotiate you down close to the max.
    - ZoomZoomZoom 2y ago
      "Why do we need a candidate that can't read or do basic math?" Also, usually the high bound is set to catch desperate overqualifieds into the job competing process, not to be actually paid. YMMV, speaking from experience in non-US job market culture.
      - zerr 2y ago
        It's not about the basic math but negotiating if they can do better, also saying that they shouldn't even bother proposing you something in the lower part of the range. I deal with non-US shops as well, it is surprising how many of them can and do pay US rates when asked.
- neilv 2y ago
  Sorry, that was a confusing choice of term by me, when the article already used the term "rule". I mean the courtship dynamics. When it's a buyer's market -- or the buyers think it is -- some of the candidate tactics are going to play differently. Even the old advice that, once the company decides they want you, that changes the dynamics, and now opens up negotiation. The dynamics maybe don't change as much as they used to. If candidate A doesn't take the offer, B, C, D, etc., are lined up and waiting, and probably not going anywhere. I suspect that a lot of techbros who only know/remember the sellers market of a few years ago are going to be hit by the pendulum swing, when a lot of employers will be similarly cocky and fickle.
  - reset0684 2y ago
    Midwest, not Silicon Valley, but that's my current experience. I've already got a job and just got an offer which would be a small pay cut. So, I told them I'm excited about the work, etc but I just can't take a pay cut. They remained firm that they couldn't budge on salary even a little. Then remained firm as I asked for a signing bonus (denied) and reduced hours (denied). This company doesn't do stock at all and they've already got unlimited PTO so no room to negotiate there. Meanwhile, their interview feedback indicated I did very well. They unanimously wanted me, and I slightly exceeded their technical expectations for the role. Seems tougher than I remember from before covid. (Throwaway since I don't want this tied to my name for my current or future employer to find.)
    - ryandrake 2y ago
      Yea, this has been pretty much my experience through years of job searching. Very rare to find a company willing to negotiate.
    - angra_mainyu 2y ago
      Can agree that right now the market is tough. Some years ago there were job posts left and right, salaries were high and hiring was smooth - now there are comparatively fewer jobs posted, salaries are almost half of what it was before, and many don't even write back. Many companies are even turning away from remote work. It used to be very doable to find a job in the US from Europe, now everyone is demanding you have work authorization and can be in the US.
reactordev 2y ago
This has been true since 216, let alone in 2016 or now in 2025. It will still be true in 20,216.
- ivanmontillam 2y ago
  I agree, if you extract the "timeless fundamentals" from each one of these paragraphs, it will remain relevant anytime, anywhere. As long as human nature remains, the advice will still be valid.
nmd 2y ago
I just went through the job hunting (labour selling!) process for a tech role in a HCOL city in US and every point in the article matched with my experience. As another commenter mentioned, the difference is these days you have bands on job listings and then levels.fyi and blind (for larger tech companies) balances out some of the information asymmetry.

CharlieDigital 2y ago

Lots of good gems > And yet, when people talk about the labor market, they think “oh, a company wants to give me a job! What a relief!” As though having a job were in itself some special privilege for which a company is the gatekeeper. > > Dispel yourself of this mindset. > > A job is just a deal. It is a deal between you and a company to exchange labor for money (and other things you value). > > Negotiating is a natural and expected part of the process of trying to make a deal. It’s also a signal of competence and seriousness. Companies generally respect candidates who negotiate, and most highly attractive candidates negotiate (if for no other reason, because they often have too many options to choose from). I'm far from a great negotiator, but there are definitely lots of good lessons from here that I've learned the hard way over time and through experience.

ivanmontillam 2y ago
One of the greatest gems I got from a blog post once posted back in HN (I can't find it anymore, unfortunately) was about a guy getting a job at Google (or ex-Googler), and he dropped the following (I'm paraphrasing, of course): > Treat yourself as a business and every job offer as a business deal. Every job offer is a deal, a business deal that must remain carefully balanced win-win. If you let it slip, by getting too much work and not the required promotion or salary bump, it will become a win-lose deal (you on the losing end). It was a short post, but that piece of advice has been with me for more than 10 years now.
davely 2y ago
> Companies generally respect candidates who negotiate Is this really the case? If a company is giving you an offer, presumably they want to hire you. At that point, does the recruiter, your hiring manager, your skip level, the CTO, the CEO even care at that point? Does this respect ever come into play in future performance reviews? I personally don’t think so, but I’ve only ever worked for larger companies. I’ve always thought you should negotiate because you’re potentially leaving money on the table, since companies will often try to lowball your offer.
- bdangubic 2y ago

ivanmontillam 2y ago

One of the sentences at the very start caught my eye: > I thought to myself: why is there so little actionable advice out there about negotiation? There's a wealth of actionable negotiation advice if you know where to look, like Harvard Business Review and Harvard Law, First Round Review, among others. One of the big pieces on negotiation I got from Harvard[0], from their Program on Negotiation. I did not attend Harvard, but reading two or three of their articles a week goes a long way. -- [0]: https://www.pon.harvard.edu/uncategorized/what-is-anchoring-in-negotiation/ https://www.pon.harvard.edu/uncategorized/what-is-anchoring-...

steele 2y ago
Getting to Yes and Bargaining for Advantage are also good reads related to this topic
- ghaff 2y ago
  Getting to Yes is a good very short book that has some gems in it. We used it in some business school class or other I took.

stared 2y ago

I have been recommending this post over and over - in a blog post from 2016 on going from academia to data science (https://p.migdal.pl/blog/2016/03/data-science-intro-for-math-phys-background https://p.migdal.pl/blog/2016/03/data-science-intro-for-math...), via email, in person. It helped quite a lot of people - especially women, who had a mindset that they should accept they should accept the offer. A thought that one can (and should) negotiate was a game-changer. Sometimes they were shocked that an ask for 25% more was accepted with no questions.

1a527dd5 2y ago

The best advice I found was in 'Never Split the Difference'. The rest is me being honest and direct.

mizzao 2y ago
Yep, I've read a lot of negotiation books and that's the one that explains all the other ones. Everything else (including this article) is a specific case of the models described in that book.
- 3eb7988a1663 2y ago
  I bounced on that book pretty quickly, so maybe I need to give it another attempt. It started off so generic and, "Here are my expert qualifications and anecdotes".
  - Seattle3503 2y ago
    Yeah I rolled my eyes at that, but publishers basically require the front 10% of non-fiction be like that. It's for the people walking through book stores and picking up books to browse.
    - ilrwbwrkhv 2y ago
      Thats why we need disruption in the books publishing industry
      - ghaff 2y ago
        You have it. You can self-publish. Publishers are not actually idiots. By and large, they know what sells.
        ilrwbwrkhv 2y ago
        Self publishing doesn't work because there is no filter for quality or editing.

andrewstuart 2y ago

I've negotiated hundreds of salaries for developers and tech people. The key to negotiating is to get to a deal that both parties feel happy with - if you “win” a negotiation through power then you will likely find later you lost when you get paid back for winning through strength. Here is what I know about negotiating: 1: know in advance the salary that you want 2: aim for a salary that is not at the high end, not at the low end 3: your target salary should be one that you will feel satisfied with if you get the job - you do not want to get the job and then be unhappy and feeling like you undersold yourself an looking over your shoulder for the next job. 4: it is a good idea to ask for a salary range - typically $5K to $10K. you can say "I'm looking for $150K to $160K but it depends on what the role is" - this gives you some room to negotiate and helps avoid overpricing yourself. 5: if you feel that your salary target is fair, then stick to that - when the time comes that they ask you how much you want - state what you want and explain why you think it is fair. 6: if you get negotiated down, explain again that you think your target number is fair and explain why. explain that given that the number is a fair market rate then you're not moving down. 7: be willing to accept that you do not get the job as an outcome of asking for a fair salary - at that point shrug and move on. 8: if you are the start of your career then money should not matter at all - find a job that will allow you to hone your craft and learn key skills - this is the attitude you should have for your first five years. After that, you will be able to negotiate on the strength of your skills and experience. Remember negotiation of salary should not be about a win/lose attitude - if either party feels that someone won and someone lost, then that will be a bad start to the relationship. Negotiating salary is about finding a salary that both employer and employee feel happy at. If you are an employer, remember that every dollar you pay ABOVE the requested salary buys you good will and enthusiasm. Every dollar you offer BELOW the requested salary does the inverse. Also avoid the "If you do well we will pay you more in 3 months" - just pay straight up front that amount.

ivanmontillam 2y ago
> if you “win” a negotiation through power then you will likely find later you lost when you get paid back for winning through strength. Could you please provide an example of said scenario? > if either party feels that someone won and someone lost, then that will be a bad start to the relationship. Negotiating salary is about finding a salary that both employer and employee feel happy at. Yes, I second this. It once happened to me that I "won" by getting an over-budgeted salary, but had to quit 3 days later because one of the bosses leaked in a meeting that they intended to overwork me since they felt hustled by me during the salary negotiation. Said and done, they assigned me more work than initially scoped, as to adjust the "bang for the buck" balance (and had to quit shortly after that).

taklimakan 2y ago

This is all very interesting, but is complete fiction for most readers. 99% of job seekers aren’t going to receive competing offers from multiple companies conveniently at the same time.

mixmastamyk 2y ago
Right, I've received one job offer in the last decade. One. Took me a year and a half of searching to get it. Don't skip the degree or get older. ;-)
- hobs 2y ago
  3 companies in a row I got recruited by folks from other companies - skipped the degree and about to turn 40, so older is relative - the biggest diff I have had is I am obvious and honest that I am always looking and actively build the network, especially the youngins - I have gotten 4 jobs (and its accelerating given the last 3) from folks I helped teach or train in the past who went on to do something interesting.
  - mixmastamyk 2y ago
    Hmmm, the nugget about focusing on younger folks you've trained sounds interesting, I hadn't previously thought of that. However, there have been very few juniors around in my last few jobs. Maybe because they were contracts.
jckahn 2y ago
Seriously. Getting even one underwhelming offer is beating the odds these days.
- echelon 2y ago
  This article must've been written in Spring 2022. Tech hiring is now like 2008 or post-dotcom. The question is whether it will return to what it once was. The big tech companies are monopolies, no longer afraid that they have to employ "all the engineers" to prevent competition. ZIRP isn't there to give rise to startups, or to give the tech companies unlimited leeway in development. If interest rates drop or big tech is broken up, we might see a sharp rise in salaries. But now there's also more competition from overseas, both in terms of great talent and competition from large international players. edit: the article was from 2016, and can confirm. I was making bank then and getting free at-work massages, boba, and towel service.

xyst 2y ago

Very old advice (2016). Definitely very good in that period of time though. I suppose it’s relevant today for some job posts. But thanks to transparency in pay regulations from states such as Colorado. Pay is advertised up front. You know what you are worth. Find jobs/companies that fit that ideal number. Then pop off in interview(s).

neilv 2y ago

> Rule #5 of negotiation: don’t be the decision-maker. Even if you don’t particularly care what your friends/family/husband/mother thinks, by mentioning them, you’re no longer the only person the recruiter needs to win over. There’s no point in them trying to bully and intimidate you; the “true decision-maker” is beyond their reach. It's a very old thing in general, not just in job-hunting. And sometimes "I have to discuss it with my spouse" is literally for real. But if someone says it, but the listener doesn't think it's for real, then the speaker sounds like either: * from a culture in which it's mutually understood as a nicety, not to be taken literally; or * a bullshitter. The former is very Californian stereotype, incidentally.

crazygringo 2y ago
I don't know why a listener wouldn't think it's for real? A new job can involve relocation, or if it's in the same city, prevent the spouse from a desired relocation. Not to mention people do tend to evaluate major life decisions with trusted friends etc. Discuss whether to job-hop now or wait to see if something better shows up in six months. I'm intrigued by your perspective that someone would assume this was non-literal or a bullshitter? I mean yes, it might be buying time, but as a recruiter why would you even care? The person wants extra time, they've given a valid reason for it, so you give it to them within reason unless it's an emergency and the position needs someone in the chair on Monday and there's another candidate who can take it. I don't think they would bother to think about it any more deeply than that.
- neilv 2y ago
  Of course most married people considering a job offer would discuss it, but that doesn't mean the person making the claim isn't actually just using a delaying tactic. (For example, maybe they already discussed it with their spouse. Or they're going to discuss it in the next hour, but they are saying this when their goal is to effectively delay for a week.) That's just one example of commonplace lying. A lot of people will openly lie, and think that's normal. Even most of these advice articles for job-hunting are full of habitual corporate-standard lying. But not all people are like that, and don't want to hire corporate-standard liars.

semiquaver 2y ago

in [2016]

__turbobrew__ 2y ago

Here is my negotiation tactic: “I see on levels.fyi that people of my level make X dollars, I want the top of that range” And magically I got 25% more TC. Only works for big enough companies with salary datapoints online. It is kind of crazy how there is a bifurcation of TC between those who bothered to negotiate and those who didn’t. Being on the inside I know there are ranges for positions and if you push you can pretty much always get to the max for your range, obviously the recruiters will not give you a max TC offer right away.

jghn 2y ago
Don't even need to make an argument. "I'll work for you if you give me X" "Here is X-Y" "No thanks"

dangus 2y ago

> If you must divulge what you’re making Never do that. > Companies will ask about your current compensation at different stages in the process This is not legal in many states, 44% of the US population lives in states where companies asking your salary is not legl. Also, the exploding offer advice is terrible. It won't work. The company will just drop the offer. The actual advice is to decide quickly. I also think that gaining some chump change during the negotiation is somewhat pointless as companies will just equalize salary bands over time. Let's say you win $5-10k additional salary during negotiation. Great, now your second year's salary increase is only going to be 2% instead of 5%. I think the real advice in the age of states having salary transparency laws is to not apply to jobs that don't have a salary range listed in the job description.

ryandrake 2y ago
I've had a company actually halt the recruiting process because I wouldn't share my current salary. They asked (as they all do), and I did a standard polite "I'd rather not share my current compensation, please make an offer you feel is a good starting point." They then said, well we'd rather not make an offer without knowing this baseline. And that was that. Sure, I guess I could have just made up a fake (high) number, but I wasn't too thrilled about what I saw about the company during the interviews, so it didn't bother me at all. If a company is being shitty during the interview process, they're probably going to be shitty to work for.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
wrs 2y ago
The equalization thing may be theoretically true, but in a cumulative 25 years of managing at big companies, I’ve never seen anyone get equalized down, just get slower raises. You’re definitely better off getting overpaid at the beginning. If the offer is 25% high, it might take five years to equalize. And the present-value premium of money isn’t zero anymore!
- dangus 2y ago
  Slower raises is exactly what I mean. Perhaps it’s better to start high but I think the impact is moot. In reality every company has a budget range and it’s quite narrow.

palata 2y ago

I looked for resources a few years ago and found a post by a software engineer talking about "Fearless Salary Negotiation" [1]. The engineer said: "it's a small book, cost me around 40 bucks which were immediately compensated by the fact that I managed to negotiate a higher salary". I wanted to ask for a raise: I had been working in that startup for 4 years and had never had a raise. I thought "if that book helps me get a raise of a few bucks per month, that will pay for it". It didn't go as planned: I followed the instructions in the book, my boss spent an hour bullshitting me and I didn't get a raise. So I sent my resignation the next day. The boss called me back, and I got a substantial raise and a bonus (to compensate for the shitty salary I had been having before, it was not a miracle). All that to say that this book did not make me a pro negotiator. But it made me understand how salary negotiation works (reading it, I felt like a child: it only says common sense stuff, but I had been doing everything wrong my whole life). And it gave me the confidence to actually ask for a raise. Totally worth it. [1]: https://www.amazon.com/Fearless-Salary-Negotiation-step-step/dp/0692568689 https://www.amazon.com/Fearless-Salary-Negotiation-step-step...

stonecharioteer 2y ago
While that has worked for me too, I find that negotiating by resignation isn't going to address other issues such as those that bolster the unfair salary. Yes. You got what you wanted, but now they know you played a wildcard and they want you gone on their terms. Or they want to extract the maximum work from you.
- palata 2y ago
  Just to be clear: my point is not that the book taught me to negotiate by resignation :-). The book gave me confidence to negotiate, and I did not even mention resigning as part of the negotiation. Only after the negotiation (a few days later), I chose to resign because of the result of the negotiation (which was therefore a failure). What the book brought to me confidence: I would have resigned without asking for a raise, saying "well it's time for me to move on" and not "I'm leaving because of the salary". Hence my boss would not have made an offer. The book also helped me understand how salary negotiation works, and how it is "normal": the recruiter does it all the time, they are used to it, and you may actually look more professional if you know how to talk about compensation than if you just accept whatever they say like a junior. > but now they know you played a wildcard and they want you gone on their terms. Or they want to extract the maximum work from you. Not at all, in my case :-).

bongodongobob 2y ago

Unless you're in like the top 1% in your field, there is no negotiation. Must be nice I guess.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
ryandrake 2y ago
Yea, I kind of think a lot of these "Just negotiate, bro" posts are from people who are extremely strong candidates already, like they invented the entire field that the company plays in. Or their PhD thesis was on the exact thing the company is trying to do. For the rest of us, companies can take us or leave us--they aren't going to get into some bidding war for some generic, but strong senior skilled candidate.
- ornornor 2y ago
  That’s scarcity mindset and it decimates your potential for negotiation. If you really truly believe you are a commodity and have nothing at all to offer compared to any other candidate, it’s worth either learning something new to get out of that commodity category and/or look at your experience + knowledge outside your core specialty and market that better. It sounds cliché but there is nobody like you. We all have unique experiences (life + professional), hobbies, knowledge no one else has or at least not in that particular combination. That’s your « unfair advantage » as some call it and you absolutely can use it to your advantage. The choice is yours.
  - bongodongobob 2y ago
    The one time I tried to negotiate for a director position they responded along the lines of "Oh we're sorry if we implied that this was a negotiation. You can accept or decline the offer by the end of the week."
    - ornornor 2y ago
      I’m an average software engineer and I can’t remember a time where I took a job I didn’t negotiate the salary on. Companies that refused to negotiate were the last offers I’d consider and I end up not taking their offers. I was often better paid than my peers. And my professional accomplishments are far from exceptional, I’ve never worked for any companies you’d know, I have gaps in my CV.

waltbosz 2y ago

I read some advice that suggested asking the salary band during salary negotiations and that many HR departments won't hesitate to share. I tried this while interviewing for my current job and sure enough they shared. Lesson learned: you can ask and the worst they will probably do is say no, but it's very valuable knowledge if they share.

staticautomatic 2y ago
Important questions most reasonable people can answer: Can you share the salary range? Are you targeting the mid-point? Are you able to make an offer at the top of the range if you want to?

foresto 2y ago

Related: How to sabotage your salary negotiations efforts before you even start https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37239747 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37239747

parpfish 2y ago

I wish I could take this advice, but my imposter syndrome is just too strong and you cant just turn it off with logical explanations. By the time I get an offer, I already feel like I’m already uncomfortable about all the bragging I’ve had to do to hype myself up. Asking for more in a negotiation is just a recipe for even worse guilt during the onboarding process (which is already a fraught time for feeling like an idiot).

sgustard 2y ago
Imagine meeting co-workers on your first day: "This is parpfish, a rock star who is making twice what all of you make. He is one of those 10x engineers you all hear about. Just stay out of his way while he re-architects all our systems!" I think I should have taken the lower offer?
- parpfish 2y ago
  The hope would be to get an intro like “This is parish, a normal 1x coder that makes a normal amount of money so please be forgiving when he doesn’t understand something”.
jaggederest 2y ago
The simple thing I tell people to do who are uncomfortable with more complex negotiation is, just before you're about to accept the offer, just ask if they can increase it any. Just straight up say "Is there any room to increase this offer?" If they say no, just accept it. If not, let them increase it, then accept that increased offer. I've gotten an increase at a significant majority of companies doing this and it's essentially zero cost.
- dockerd 2y ago
  How many different companies have you worked for?
  - jaggederest 2y ago

whall6 2y ago

Having worked in investment banking (a job where your only true value add is your network and ability to negotiate) I would like to say two things: 1. I second everything in the article. 2. You would be surprised to learn how important rule #7 is. We would build entire presentations that we would provide to the other side of the table in negotiations just to reinforce our points. Basically putting ourselves in the position of “hey we’re on your side, but look at the numbers; our hands are tied!”. Having a non-confrontational attitude and providing specific reasons for why you are asking for things makes a big difference in negotiations. (Definitely don’t need to be building presentations for potential employers though… unless it’s for contracts large enough that you’d need a lawyer and wouldn’t need OP’s advice anyways!)

madebylaw 2y ago
Classic banker tactic, I love it. “Overwhelm them with data”

refurb 2y ago

This is quality advice. It approaches the process with the other party in mind. I’ve put a few of these into practice and they work quite well. Once you’ve made it to the offer stage most companies want to close. You have more ability to push back on offers than you think.

iamleppert 2y ago

When negotiating with a startup, especially a founder, always ask for two offers: one with a higher equity offer and another with a higher cash offer. This allows the other party to still feel in control of the negotiation process but tells you two important pieces of information: the first is what the “top” number is for both equity and cash. The second is how much they really are valuing the equity portion. Depending on the response, you can argue for both higher cash or equity, or both. I often ask what is preventing from giving both higher cash and higher equity? Often times I’ve gotten both.

madebylaw 2y ago
This is good advice. As a technical founder I have been through many offer ceremonies and I would always make 2 versions of an offer, one equity weighted and the other base salary weighted. The math should be easy if you’ve already had a priced round and you should be telling the candidate the price and fma of your equity anyway. I would say 90% took the higher base. And I wouldn’t up both unless they were a truly great candidate.

renewiltord 2y ago

For startups, I'm pretty upfront about the fact that I don't negotiate but if they go under my activation price I will simply decline. It's a one and done deal and we can revisit months later. The range of cost I'll accept is quite large (though this part I don't communicate). I don't mind working for $200k annualized on things I really enjoy and I don't mind working on things I enjoy less for $800k annualized and so on. I have an internal sliding scale and I'm quite clear that I don't really need to work on any specific thing. Then I just take the gig if it meets my internal criteria. In my experience, it isn't about making a $20k more now or whatever. It's about making a million more because you're invested in something worthwhile etc. etc.

casey2 2y ago

If the people spent half as much time building skills as they spent creating, reading and following random "rules" then the climate change, homelessness, tech employment crisis etc would all be solved problems.

pythonguython 2y ago
We’re talking about spending a couple of hours learning the basics of negotiation for a likely 10-20% increase in salary/equity. That’s certainly not making the difference in solving the world’s problems. If you’re speaking more broadly than just salary negotiation - I’d just say that humans aren’t perfect machines. We care about solving problems but we also have desire for money, power, status and following random rules.

drekipus 2y ago

I had a simple formula: "I feel like I am contributing at least $X value to the company. If I am then it makes sense to pay me that, and if not I'd like to know how we can get there." It starts a discussion and it's more honest: if I am not worth that much then tell me how I can be more valuable. I have had a pay rise every year from this conversation but my company is very flexible and successful, so mileage may vary. I find all other approaches to me gimmicky and tricks, and somewhat dishonest in some way.

hardwaregeek 2y ago

With most tech career advice on the internet, I would check to see if it was written before 2022. If so, I'd take it with a grain of salt. I wrote tech advice in the ZIRP times. It was a very different market. Negotiation is still a valid tactic but there's a lot more to lose and a lot fewer offers than in 2021.

whatshisface 2y ago
Negotiation isn't a tactic, it's the basic thing you are doing.
- ghaff 2y ago
  Depends on your position. I was employed but the company was going down the tubes when I got my last job through a connection. I didn't really negotiate and the one thing I would have liked to have negotiated (paid time off) was made clear was not on the table even before I said anything. And the offer was not FAANG levels but was incredibly good relative to what I was making.

aclimatt 2y ago

This is all great advice especially at the 101 level. At the 201 level, you can start to skip a lot of these formalities by straightening out the information asymmetry and really having a crisp position on the value exchange. - Your #1 goal should actually be knowing the top of the range of what this role is worth in the market. Once you figure that out, the whole "don't say the first number" rule is BS. Set expectations at the high water mark and then your job isn't to negotiate on salary; it's to negotiate if you're worth it - Now that you know the maximum price this role (or product, or service -- it's all the same!) can be set to, you need to convince the other side that you deliver the requisite amount of value to justify the price. Like the article said, talk about your impact. Your BATNA. Your opportunity cost. All of these things are real and support why you are worth it Once you transition from negotiating on price alone to negotiating ROI, everything changes. Try your best to solve the asymmetry, set the price and move on, find your leverage, and then make a compelling case. That's how you win

iamiamiam 2y ago

Companies should offer the best offer in the first place. If the candidates still negotiates, either he is not a fit or you will not make him/her happy/loyal either, the best option is pass.

ein0p 2y ago

Rule #1 is: have leverage, and understand your leverage. Rule #2: be prepared to walk away There are no other rules.

0xbadcafebee 2y ago

> A company’s goal is to hire someone who will become an effective employee and produce more value than their cost. This isn't true. They have no clue how to measure your value output. A company's goal is to make sure it has the staff to get its work done so it can sell its thing. A hiring manager's goal is to find someone to do the thing they don't have time/staff for. They will pay somewhere in the realm of whatever the market pays, depending on the "philosophy" of the hiring manager, engineering director, finance people, etc. I recently interviewed for two jobs in different locations. Both remote, both companies in mid-tier locations in terms of salary. Same type of job, same kind & size of company, same tech, same problems to solve. One was offering 40K more than the other. I wasn't going to produce 40K more value for one than the other. Hiring and salary is just not a very smart process. They have the budget they have, and the market is what it is.

msteffen 2y ago
Yes! I wrote my own response, but your post made me realize the most important piece of missing advice: if you want a great offer, interview at a company with lots and lots of money
- 0xbadcafebee 2y ago
  Generally speaking, yes, companies with more money can pay more. But there's plenty of companies with lots of money, yet their teams have no budget. And it depends if you came in through a recruiter or not, or are a contractor or not, or if it's a startup throwing around cash or being thrifty. Start by applying to the ones that list a high range, and then the companies with lots of money, and then the rest. I've found that if they're a startup based out of a high-income city, they're most likely to throw money at you. Larger companies based out of high-income cities have to be more stingy and will limit based on your location, but you can push for more. A corporate hiring structure will often enforce salary caps based on title, so if you ask for too much, they may have to invent a new title for you and get it justified to their executive leadership, which is politically fraught. So if you get to the top of the salary band, don't push hard, or they will be in a corner and have to choose between you (a near-impossible candidate) and a candidate they can actually hire.

msteffen 2y ago

It’s funny, I switched from engineering to management a few years ago, and as part of learning to be a manager I really had to learn to negotiate (Avery Pennarun, founder of Tailscale, describes Eng managers as professional negotiators, which I think is at least partly true). I loved this article. There’s a book on negotiation called “Getting to Yes” that uses a different framework, which became my preferred way to think about negotiation: The goal of a negotiation is to strike an agreement that both parties are happy about. The stereotypical negotiation, “I won’t go a cent below $10,” “well I won’t go a cent above $8” is bad negotiation because even if they meet at $9, neither is happy about it. Instead, the effective negotiator thinks creatively about what would make them happy and asks if it’s available. As much as I basically agree with it, I would cast the advice in this article differently. Here’s my take, for what it’s worth: - Re. all the author’s advice about withholding information: you may not be happy if one day you find out that you’re being paid 30% below market (though maybe you won’t care—know what you care about! It will help you negotiate more effectively). The ideal solution here, though, is to know about the market! Consult levels.fyi, talk to your friends, maybe interview from time to time before you’re really looking. - Re. Don’t be the decision-maker: this is a useful rhetorical tactic, often also called “bad cop,” and it’s not really negotiation-specific but you can bring it into a negotiation if it helps you (at one startup, our co-founder would say on sales calls, “let me check with my sales team” when he was definitely the whole sales team). Honestly, IMO it’s only really useful if you’re trying to placate someone, which you hopefully shouldn’t be when you’re weighing their offer, but you’re welcome to use it if you have social anxiety about pissing off the recruiter (you probably won’t, but I understand the worry) - Re. stay positive: …yes? The goal is to get to a deal you’re both happy with. If you’re already not happy, then the negotiation is already over. The effective negotiator walks away before getting mad—why burn a bridge over one deal not panning out? - Have alternatives: honestly this is the main thing. I don’t know how much there is to say but anyone will understand you not being happy with a deal that’s already not your best option.

ericrallen 2y ago

Based on the website, was this published in 2016? The job market in 2016 is unrecognizable to anyone who has had to look for a job recently. It is absolutely brutal out there right now, and this feels a bit detached from reality.

ptero 2y ago
Conditions change. Sometimes you have to tread very carefully, but even then a soft negotiation check is usually worth it. My 2c.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

agold97 2y ago

I just skimmed, so not sure if this was mentioned. It's pretty basic, but BE FAIR. It goes a LONG way and is (sometimes) hard to clock. I was offered something in my contract, and I misread the offer (not because it wasn't clear, I literally just skipped over a couple of words). Subsequently, I continued on with negotiations and never mentioned it as a concern. It wasn't detrimental to my offer, and I knew I'd be fine with accepting that term, but it was sort of an annoying term. I knew if I went back to it after the 3rd round of negotiations and negotiated it, then it just wasn't fair. I later told my boss about it and he appreciated it a lot. I have an amazing and fair relationship with my boss.

Pooge 2y ago

For a company I've interviewed with, I've been asked twice a salary range and declined both times. I was even transparent for the 2nd time (which happened months later) and answered that it's not in my interest to give a number first. Well, I received an offer from them and I would have undercut myself by 30%. This is perhaps—or perhaps not—an extreme example, but I only applied what I was told in the negotiation articles and books I've read. When you read a book, you're going to think "It's just fantasy; no way this is going to happen to me" but if you actually apply that knowledge it can truly work in your favor. I also declined an offer 2 months beforehand because the salary was ridiculously low, despite being unemployed at the time. Want is fine, need is not.

hummingn3rd 2y ago
I am a bit confused by not talking about the salary right away, I have seen advice like yours and in this article about not giving the number fisrt but the opposite in other articles saying to leverage the anchoring bias by giving a high number first. That would help raising the following offers. Both approaches seem to make sense so I am not sure what to choose.
- ornornor 2y ago
  I’m also ambivalent because you risk investing in a time consuming interview process only to find out they’re offering .5 of what you deemed the minimum you’d take.
- 1oooqooq 2y ago
  are you a vc level with visibility of salaries in all the company orgs? if not, just stay silent or you will undercut yourself. working class never knows their value, by design.
  - therealdrag0 2y ago
    You can get a lot of data points online though from levelsfyi or blind.

coopykins 2y ago

I found this article at a time where I had the opportunity to accept two job offers, so I had nothing to lose by pushing for more salary. The negotiation went well and got a substantial increase in the final offer on company A. On the other hand, company B dropped their offer. So watch out, if company B had been my only option I would have lost my opportunity. I was clear from the beginning that I had another offer at hand, to use as leverage.

jeffrallen 2y ago

Just a data point: I once avoided giving the first number, and when pushed into it, gave a ridiculously high number for a job I really wanted. The HR guy said, "no that's too high". Well duh, idiot. You make a big story about how you can't possibly move forward until I tell you something, I'm going to tell you something, and you're not going to like it. I waited a day to cool off and think hard, and called the guy back to say, "Your colleagues have selected me, I've proven I'll be able to do this job, and they told you they want me to. I told you, make me an offer. You instead required me to make an offer, and look where it got us? Now do as I asked, make me an offer, and we'll see. I won't be offended, this is a hard post to fill, and we both want this to work, so just try, will you?" Hardest phone call I ever made, but worth it. I saved my colleagues from having to go find another candidate, and got myself a job I wanted for the right price.

pkdpic 2y ago

He's not a perfect figure but I always really valued Haseebs perspective and energy. I used to have access to an old lecture of his explaining memory management through whiteboard sketches of original mario that I really loved in addition to dozens of energetic insightful lectures on foundational computer science concepts that he basically did for free before his AirBnB position. I think he played a big role for a lot of pre-pandemic bootcamp imposters like me. But seeing this pop back up on HN I'm wondering how radically the tech world / job market has changed. I've been hiding in kushy underpaid remote jobs basically since the pandemic so I have no real idea whats going on out there. How applicable is this perspective to the present day market for software engineers? How much have things fundamentally changed?

1970-01-01 2y ago

>oh, a company wants to give me a job! What a relief!” As though having a job were in itself some special privilege for which a company is the gatekeeper. A global recession is happening. Let's see if this advice will withstand the times or will age like milk. I predict the latter; the Great Depression wasn't fake news.

KronisLV 2y ago

Oh hey, this uses PT fonts, I quite like them: https://fonts.google.com/specimen/PT+Sans https://fonts.google.com/specimen/PT+Sans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PT_Fonts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PT_Fonts I'd actually use them as my main programming font if the dot (.) character wasn't a bit too small at smaller font sizes.

pjdemers 2y ago

I've always asked for better non-monetary things in writing: title, spot on the org chart, automatic promotion soon, which parts of the product and stack I will work on, even as trivial as whether my desk will have a window. I state with constant certainty that those things are more important to me than a bigger paycheck. Most of the time I was offered far more money (in one case, 2 years pay signing bonus) in return for my agreeing to accept an offer with none of those things in writing.

Tainnor 2y ago

This was written in 2016. The job market in 2016 was basically "you can throw a stone and find somebody looking for a developer". These days, the market is so different that I'm not sure if the same advice is still relevant. In addition, some of this kind of advice has always struck me as particularly US-centric and I doubt it all applies equally well in e.g. Europe. You don't get very far here by not sharing your initial salary expectations early on, I think.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

hellisothers 2y ago

I clicked through to buy this book for future reference and discovered it was the guy I paid as a negotiation coach for my last job. It was expensive but extremely worth it, I’d do it again at 2x the price. Strong recommendation for Josh.

JoshDoody 2y ago
:waves: Reading through the thread and saw your comment. Just wanted to say hi, I'm glad you had a good experience, and say thanks for the kind words. Hope you are doing well!

adamjoan512 2y ago

[flagged]