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Software engineering is one of the ways of playing life in "easy mode" (I moved from academia over a decade ago, and I know the difference). This blog post trie

• goodpoint 2y ago
  > Software engineering is one of the ways of playing life in "easy mode" ...if you are born in US, maybe, but "somebody else has it worse" is pure whataboutism.
• legitster 2y ago
  > This blog post tries to paint it differently - and it feels it lacks perspective with virtually any other occupations. On one hand, misery and happiness are relative. On the other hand, try telling a construction worker how hard our lives are sitting in chairs clicking buttons. My dad used to have to do things like hot tar roofing to pay the bills. So I still consider it a blessing to get to work in software. I think one thing that needs to be understood better is the concept of "burnout". I think it's wrong to equate it with "working hard". I've known farmers and restaurateurs who work insane hours for decades and never think about burning out. On the other hand, I have felt burned out 3 weeks into a job where I did nothing. I think it has little to do with how hard we work and everything to do with our perception of progress.
  • jimbokun 2y ago
    I think burnout is Cool Hand Luke being forced to dig a ditch and fill it back up again, for days. It’s putting in effort without seeing anything concrete to show for it. If you tar a roof, you can see a roof that will keep out the rain. If you cook a meal, you see someone who was hungry but now full. A lot of jobs don’t have that feedback loop.
    • dxxth 2y ago
      I think too, is the cost of taking work home. Many jobs, including construction, service jobs, even many medical jobs, do not require even the thought of work outside of working hours. Anecdotally many in these positions that I am friends with will attest that it's great to get off work and pretend work didn't happen and go on with their real life, because they don't have deadlines or projects to stress over, arduous performance reviews, or extensive office politicking and empire-building.
  • ActorNightly 2y ago
    >I think one thing that needs to be understood better is the concept of "burnout". I can explain it pretty well. You can classify pretty much all jobs into 2 categories - map lookups and reasoning. A map lookup job is something where you learn to associate a specific problem with a solution. Most jobs are like this. You go work in construction, its pretty much map lookup - supervisor tells you to go prep the concrete, you know the procedure to do it, you go do it. Even high end jobs like VPs are often map lookups, you aren't really thinking about solving any problems, just following the standard procedure of what works and are essentially relying on the actual work of lower ranked people to give you data. Reasoning jobs are those where you don't have the solution for a particular problem in memory, so you figure it out. For example, business strategy, despite being non technical, is a reasoning problem - there are a lot of variables you have to consider, and success in this regard often involves things like figuring out what you have to do, which is a separate task than actually doing it. Software engineering is interesting because it can be both. Setting up standard service stacks is often a map lookup job. The interviews themselves test on map lookup really, as most of the problems fall within the scope of pointer manipulation or n-linked lists, with memorizing specific hard ones in case you get asked those. But fundamentally, software development is a reasoning type job. The burnout happens when someone in software engineering is good at map lookup, but is actually needed to do reasoning, and has no education or training on how to do the latter. For example, I worked at Amazon. Id estimate that if I asked a random sample of 100 engineers to give me http traffic from a service, 1 out of 100 of them would know how to do it, and only about 10 or so would be able to actually go figure it out on their own. This is why people who are good at reasoning can really do any job well. If you take a software engineer who is extremely competent and can build complex solutions, and make them in charge of optimizing things like delivery, shipping and warehouse storage, or finance management of a company (excluding the emotional response to those jobs), they would be able to do it well. Whereas people who are good at map lookups tend to be only good at certain jobs in certain quantities.
• cyrnel 2y ago
  There's no reason why tech unions can't have solidarity with other unionization efforts (and there are thousands of reason why we should have that solidarity). Us tech workers could be leveraging the privilege we have to get better conditions for everyone. A perfect example is non-compete clauses. Tech workers enjoy high job mobility, which is only hindered by non-competes. It's no accident that major tech hubs were some of the first states to ban them, helping all workers.
  • stared 2y ago
    > Us tech workers could be leveraging the privilege we have to get better conditions for everyone. Yes. A bit of context here: I am European and take for granted many things related to social safety (healthcare, benefits, parental leave, or various sorts) and equal opportunity (free education, public transportation, etc.). Many views of Bernie Sanders are mainstream by European standards (vide https://www.quora.com/How-far-to-the-left-is-Bernie-Sanders-by-European-Union-standards https://www.quora.com/How-far-to-the-left-is-Bernie-Sanders-...). Yet, in Poland, there are various lower taxes for software engineers (and some other similar professionals). I don't consider it fair. Yes, many people feel that they work hard (and they do!) or that their friends earn even more. But at the same time, it takes talking with anyone in education, retail, or care to see that what is considered unacceptable pay for any IT job is, for many, a dream salary. While inequality is not nearly as enormous as in the US, it is still. So yes, if these are system changes that benefit all workers - wonderful! > A perfect example is non-compete clauses. Yes. In Europe, you are often paid by the previous employer if you have such a clause. So, it only makes sense in a reasonable case where you could directly pass know-how on to the competitors. But not as a leash.
• __loam 2y ago
  Incredible that people like you will watch the industry lay off hundreds of thousands of workers then turn around and make this argument. It's like devs are allergic to any semblance of labor solidarity.
  • nosefurhairdo 2y ago
    Would you rather have layoffs at your company or have your company go out of business due to excessive labor costs? Should poor performers be immune from layoffs? When is a layoff justifiable? I'm free to leave my job at any time, so why shouldn't my employer be free to leave me?
    • __loam 2y ago
      Should the most profitable companies on the planet be free to lay off good performers in a country where healthcare is tied to employment? You can invent strawmen like poor performers and failing companies all day long but the facts differ quite a lot from your perception.
      • gnarlynarwhal42 2y ago
        What motivation would a company have to lay off a good performer? Seems counter-productive, but I'm not a CEO
    • brian-armstrong 2y ago
      > Would you rather have layoffs at your company or have your company go out of business due to excessive labor costs? I invite you to read earnings reports from any of the FAANG companies in the last 5 years. Go ahead, I'll wait.
      • daedrdev 2y ago
        Most people actually don't work at immensely profitable FAANG companies.
• floriannn 2y ago
  I have a sub-40 week at one of the big tech companies, idk why this article is being so confident that we are all pushing 80 hours? We are tech workers, we need time to go to the bouldering gym and to take our Patagonia hoodies to see the outdoors.
• spudnik 2y ago
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• lll-o-lll 2y ago
  > In some (e.g., medical careers), grind is not optional Not disagreeing with your post in general, but the grind for medical specialists is only until 30 something. Once you are “consultant” (in Australia), it’s basically huge money with a job for life at whatever hours you want to work; almost anywhere in the world. Don’t get me wrong, the grind until then is extreme, but it’s a weird comparison to make. Overall, I agree that we are super privileged in the world of software.
• achierius 2y ago
  This applies to some people (it certainly applies to me!) but not to everyone. Insofar as any white collar worker can be exploited, which they can, plenty of SWEs are making <$100k, work long hours, have poor healthcare, etc. etc. And even for those who are doing well -- isn't it better to stand alongside those who aren't? Why is the "proper" thing to do just going your own way and being happy that you got yours?
• jacobgkau 2y ago
  My initial reaction to this whole thing was the same as yours (not that I have any love lost for academics). Software engineers do basically no physical labor and usually get paid better than many people who physically work way harder. On the whole, software engineers are not "the victim," as you said. However, your examples made me think. > In other places, you can have a typical 40h/week job at a salary way better than the average 9-5 job. Can you? Can everyone? I've job hunted before and known many more people who've taken way longer than me to find a position at all, in several different locations throughout the country (not coastal metropolises). You're kind of suggesting that unemployment isn't an issue in the industry, which is a pretty blanketed take. > Or you can freelance a dozen hours a week and live in a remote cottage. Can you meet friends while living in a remote cottage? Can you raise kids well in a remote cottage? (Does the remote cottage even have internet?) This one is technically true, but ignores many of the reasons most people work/live in the first place. I say that as someone who's considered going that route. So while I agree software engineers aren't a "victim class" as compared to other industries, I also think using the "it could be worse" excuse to avoid working for better conditions that are totally feasible isn't a great thing to do. The majority of software engineers are middle-class, and when the middle-class is under attack, they're going down with the rest of the ship, not up. Perhaps it'd be better to foster a little more solidarity instead of inviting us vs. them mentality.
  • echelon 2y ago
    > I also think using the "it could be worse" excuse to avoid working for better conditions that are totally feasible isn't a great thing to do. Unions fuck up the incentives. Tenured positions are coveted and come with privileges that make the job easier and the position more cushy. New hires want those perks and will rest once they attain them. This is the opposite of what you want in a workforce: you want the top 50% to work hard and fight for raises and promotions. In our industry, when we don't get the promotions or raises we want, we switch jobs. Job switching has been an incredible means of advancing our careers and being exposed to new tech and new problems. Because of tenure and different jobs using different unions, unions will lead to fewer job changes and more "lifers" that stick around at a single job for a long time. That ossifies code, stops the influx of new ideas and talent, and causes super weird code / business unit ownership drama. It's also super boring. Tech companies aren't afraid of high salaries (evidently so!) as much as they are of non-fungibility and ossification of the workforce. Unions make slow businesses even slower. Because of this, unions lead to offshoring. Unions have ground so many industries to a halt in the US. Manufacturing, automotive. Most recently, the film industry (particularly crew) have been offshored -- in the last several years productions have moved to Eastern Europe and Asia sans any US workforce. They fly the cast (without crew) out for the shoots. It's all because of unions. If we wish this upon ourselves -- in one of the cushiest careers in the world -- we'll soon find all of our jobs moving overseas.
• roxolotl 2y ago
  Both you and this post can be correct. It is the case that being a software dev is a position of relative privilege. It is also the case that many people feel burnt out, the system doesn't support them, and labor solidarity is important. This is a classic trap. Just because your body isn't being abused by the system to the extent that others are doesn't mean that you can't argue and fight against the abuse you are suffering from.
• bawolff 2y ago
  > Software engineering is one of the ways of playing life in "easy mode" Is it though? People in software seem to be constantly talking about burnout/mental health issues. Like we need some explanation as to why software has such high pay, flexibility, limited education requirements, and yet not everyone in the world is doing it. High pay is usually a sign the job is compensating for being shitty in other ways.
  • chasd00 2y ago
    One thing about software dev is it’s hard to do very well but pretty easy to do good enough. It’s when good enough becomes no longer acceptable all of a sudden that the job gets very hard and people get burned. That’s not always fair though. Another interesting part of software dev is expectations change radically. I’m not in construction but I don’t think a developer can ask a construction team to build a skyscraper in 6 months vs a year or be fired and be taken serious but in software dev that happens all the time.
    • YZF 2y ago
      You're under-estimating how easy it is to do good enough. During the dot com boom many people with academic degrees in various fields tried to move over to software development with very limited success. That's like the top few % of the population to start with. Only some tiny fraction of those were in the good enough to successful range and many were ejected from the market when it crashed to never come back.
      • achenet 2y ago
        Being good at acquiring fancy academic degrees != Being good at programming. If you ask the top 1% of FAANG engineers, the Jeff Dean's and Ken Thompsons to try to make it as professional ballet dancers, they're probably going to fail pretty hard too. Granted "academic degrees" and "programming" are probably more similar than "programming" and ballet, but still. The metaphor "ballet dancer" and "basketball player" or "basketball player" and "gymnast" might be more apt. You can be good at one thing and not good at a related thing, even if both require 'using your brain a lot' or 'using your body a lot'
• mistrial9 2y ago
  > one of the ways of playing life in "easy mode" you have never done 80 hour weeks in software?
• blinded 2y ago
  1000% this. My partner is in the medical field, the absurd schedule they put up with and the amount they are required to work when tired is the worst. Some close friends do contracting / construction, it takes a tole on their bodies. People that take above senior level roles or "FANG" jobs should expect to grind.
  • gonzo41 2y ago
    Just because doctors have internalized the propaganda that they need to work that hard doesn't make it true or correct. People who take senior roles are paid for the things they are accountable for. They don't have to do 80 hours in front of a screen, they need to drive outcomes and be accountable.
    • borgdefenser 2y ago
      [flagged]
  • hirvi74 2y ago
    I feel like being a dev has taken a toll on my body in the opposite direction ---- "use it or lose it." Perhaps it's because my brain is full of software issues itself, but I don't have enough energy nor motivation before/after work to do anything else. Luckily, I am somehow healthy-ish in terms of medical metrics, but I know at my current trajectory, I won't be able to sustain it for many more years.
    • nradov 2y ago
      Energy and motivation are irrelevant. Discipline is all that matters. Go out and do a hard workout every day no matter how tired you are or how miserable it makes you. Eventually it will just become a habit.
      • noduerme 2y ago
        I think about doing this sometimes, and then I think how ironic it would be if I died next week and my last thought was I wish I'd spent those hours sleeping late, eating, drinking and fucking.
• aylmao 2y ago
  IMO, this is a bad take. I've been in this industry long enough to have heard all the arguments presented here before— it's the classic ones: "pay is good", "not all jobs are bad", "others have it worse", etc. We're in a strategic industry with lots of investment, and a lot of us who check Hacker News have good enough resumes to be in demand, but this doesn't change the fact we —software engineers as a whole— are workers. We might be well-paid, but we're still working class. If you go outside the top-school bubble, or the usa-tech bubble, this is more evident. Take the money and generous stock grants away and the job is basically indistinguishable from any other white-collar job. Most software developers around the world can't work from Thailand when it's winter. Or take a gap year to reinvent themselves. Or find freelance work that'd allow them to live comfortably with only a dozen hours of work a week. The incentive of companies is always to have their workers produce more, for less. Thankfully in the USA especially the stars are aligned to give "top software engineering talent" enough leverage to enjoy career mobility and cushy pay. We're at the right place at the right time. The incentive of companies is always to have their workers produce more for less, and trust me, they're trying. It might be AI, it might be a growing supply of developers, it might be a change in investment strategies— that "top software engineering talent" pool will shrink and a lot of developers will be hit with the realization they weren't some permanent exception in the system. We might feel like we're part of the bourgeoisie because we get big cheques from the companies we work for, but we're much closer factory-line work than a lot of people realize.
  • Izkata 2y ago
    Being a worker doesn't mean "working class". That phrase pretty specifically is for people who do some sort of physical work. We fall under "professional class", people who mostly do knowledge work, traditionally at a desk in an office. They're both generally considered part of the middle class.
    • bdangubic 2y ago
      you can put a lipstick on a pig with some linkedin lingo like “professional class” or “working professional” but that is just for bars to impress boys/girls. end of the day you are worker and working class. the fact that you might be in the office while someone is out enjoying the sun at the construction site is just geography
• ohgr 2y ago
  We're definitely not victims. It's impossible to rationalise what we do. Use this to your advantage.
• guelo 2y ago
  I've notice that many engineers that have been inside cushy corporations for a while don't realize the bloodbath that is happening outside their corporate walls in the job markets. But your CEO definitely realizes it and they are tightening the screws because they haven't had this much power over employees in a long time. They're coming for you too sooner or later.
  • 000ooo000 2y ago
    Yeah, GP is shortsighted. "No need for unions - things are good right now!"
• sheepscreek 2y ago
  Okay. Reality check mate. It was like that till before COVID. Don’t be under the wrong assumption that it’s anything like that now, or ever will be. Maybe your experience was different? I can sure as hell relate to this and I’m not even in the valley.
• Minor49er 2y ago
  > Or take a gap year to regenerate, or reinvent, yourself. I'm curious about people who have done this and how they've handled things like insurance, taxes, and getting back into the workforce after such a long gap. It seems like a big risk since there's no guarantee of employment. I'd also imagine having a long break would be looked on unfavorably by interviewers and make it harder to get back in
  • astroalex 2y ago
    I took 2 years off where I made 0 income. Insurance was covered by the government and my healthcare was quite good. I didn't pay taxes because I didn't make any income. Getting back into the workforce happened literally within a single day (this was ~4 years ago when the market was different, not sure the same thing would happen now). I had no trouble switching jobs multiple times afterwards, either—recruiters and interviewers have never seemed to care that I took a break. I was able to take some much needed time off to focus on personal projects and I'm extremely grateful I was able to do it. My friends who didn't take time off were able to advance more in their careers, but I think it is a fair trade.
  • samiv 2y ago
    I can only speak for myself but I took 4 times a year or more off. Three of those times I spent backpacking and traveling in Australia, NZ and South-East Asia, and I spent time doing something else such as fruit-picking and working as a Dive Master and scuba diving for half a year. (Best times really) Getting back to work was as simple as making a few phone calls essentially and exploring my network. Granted, it was a different time (decades ago) and I didn't look for a mega corp job that requires arduous interview process. Since then when changing jobs and interviewing I've only ever been asked once about those "gaps" in my resume and I said that I took time off to travel and explore and was greeted with enthusiasm only.
    • azemetre 2y ago
      You do realize that this is immensely privileged and something that 99% of working devs can't do right? Especially the bit about making calls and instantly getting a job, that's something even famous engineers can't get too.
• roncesvalles 2y ago
  In my experience as a software engineer rounding out 6 years now, what I have observed in myself and others is that the work pressure that leads to burnout in SWEs is largely self-imposed. I have some conjectures as to why that may be: 1. High variability of pay, not only between companies but within companies. As a SWE your total compensation can be expected to double every two promotions, and promotions can be pretty fast. Promotions are also not purely a function of tenure like other professions with steep comp growth such as pilots. 2. "This is too good to be true" syndrome. You show up at your comfy 250k job with catered lunch, dinner, and maxed out benefits. After the first month, your workload is about 3-4 hours a day. Everything is flexible - the time you show up, the time you leave, the days you choose to come in to the office, what you wear. Everyone is smart and nice. Free snacks. Imposter syndrome and paranoia set in. Am I doing enough? Should I look at this P2 prod bug on a Satuday? I guess I only worked 20 hours last week so it's fair to work a couple of hours on the weekend. Everything I do needs to be perfect or they could've just hired someone in India for 1/10th my pay, right? etc. Then it snowballs. (I'm probably just describing imposter syndrome.) In reality nothing really happens if you slow down and do things at a comfortable pace. Most managers want to cultivate reliable people who take long-term deep ownership, not productivity machines that just bang out features. If they needed more output, they'd just hire one more person.
  • mojomark 2y ago
    This is an interesting take, but I have a slightly different take. My ding dong company pays everyone including myself, salaries that are way too high. They gave ne a 30% raise I didn't even ask for or expect. We get a contract to do X, which say should take a team of 5 folks. However, we can only staff the contract with 3 folks because our salaries are too high. Now, we're all working 80hr weeks and stressed to the max because we really need more fresh minds on the challenge. Now, we're in a contract lull, so some of us are only charging part time (75%), while actually working overtime. It's bananas. The solution seems obvious. Decrease salaries and increase company stock offerings. Then, if you and your colleagues care to work harder and deliver outstanding product, your stock value will rise over time and you'll be a.) more wealthy than taking 'dumb' money, and b.) more physically and mentally healthy.
• amritsahoo 2y ago
  --redacted--
  • spacemadness 2y ago
    It's not. OP is living in the past or in a total bubble.
• biophysboy 2y ago
  You can have the most privileged occupation and bargain to make it better. Its not different from living in the USA, the wealthiest country in the world, and bargaining to make it better. Generally, you change something you are a part of, not because its the most important thing in the world, but because you have a stake in it and understand it.
• conqrr 2y ago
  I can't relate to "easy mode" past the layoffs. Everything has turned into a nightmare with employer expectations. Everyone I speak to feels the same. Things are not the way they are. Absurd Schedules - Yes Unrealistic Deadlines - Yes Competing Colleageues -Yes Toxic environment - Yes Hard to switch - Yes Outsourcing - Yes Training your replacements -Yes How is this easy mode? Mental labor can be as bad or even worse than Physical labor. Atleast you hit a brick wall with physical. Your enemy is inivisible when its mental.
  • dismalaf 2y ago
    > How is this easy mode There's jobs where you work 80 hours per week to maybe make $50-60k, and are so physical your body will be shot by 40 or 50... Devs get compensated extremely well.
    • malfist 2y ago
      So what? Because somebody has it worse means billionaires can exploit us without recourse? Because that's the alternative. Either we advocate or they take more and more
      • dismalaf 2y ago
        It's fine to demand more. I'm a believer in market power. But have some perspective, there's a ton of far worse jobs...
        • achenet 2y ago
          The problem with the "it could be worse" line of thinking is it ignores that it could also be better. Yes, there are far worse jobs. Yes, being a slave is infinitely worse than being a software engineer. But that's like saying "oh, using 3G isn't that bad, dial-up is worse." Sure, but if you can get fiber-optic, that's better. A lot better. And you'll do better work that way (assuming you use the internet in your work, which, if you're a dev, you probably do). "Oh, running our entire infrastructure on a 10 year old ThinkPad isn't that bad, it could be worse, we could have a PDP-11". Sure, and you could also rent a beast of a server from OVH/Hetzner/etc for relatively cheap, and that might make life a little nicer, for you, and for your customers. If you've got half your workforce burning out, that's a fucking issue, and while yes, compared to 99% of jobs that ever existed (medival peasant, prostitute, garbage man, street musician, cashier) this is quite nice, if people keep developing mental health issues as a result of it, that's an issue. And in that case, if the "market solution" is basically unionize to demand better conditions...
• vvpan 2y ago
  I recommend this reading about where the valley heading. If you are not squeezed for work, you will be. Developers are becoming more disposable. Maybe you are not feeling but it's happening. https://www.businessinsider.com/tech-industry-amazon-microsoft-meta-google-companies-intensity-hardcore-2025-3 https://www.businessinsider.com/tech-industry-amazon-microso...
• nyarlathotep_ 2y ago
  I don't think this rings true anymore for a lot of people, even those with "good experience." It's a lot harder to even get interviews now--I'm one of several people in my social circle that are having difficulty even getting interviews with referrals. Projecting forward, things looks worse than the present and far worse than the past.
  • hirvi74 2y ago
    Nothing good last forever. Not saying things won't eventually improve, but hey, maybe they won't? Still, I think a lot of people treat being a dev as more of an identity than a career. Those with such identities will have a harder time adjusting. Personally, I like to create and build things. I will try to continue to do so, if not as a dev, then as some other profession.
• niederman 2y ago
  It is possible to simultaneously be a victim of the system and for other people to be worse off victims of the system. All workers can and should unite to protect themselves from the capitalist class. Tech professionals should not feel guilty merely because they are less oppressed than the other workers.
• AndyKelley 2y ago
  This is the kicker: > How many of us have been forced to work on projects that make us sick to our stomachs - surveillance tech, data mining tools, algorithms that reinforce social biases - because we don’t have the power to say no? Those unprivileged people that you're trying to compare tech workers to, in order to undermine this manifesto, are exactly those who are harmed by dark patterns. Anyway that's besides the point. Your profile says "Co-founder and CTO" which means you are biased against unions. Your comments cannot be taken at face value, because you are incentivized to come up with any reason to side against this movement.
  • stared 2y ago
    > How many of us have been forced to work on projects that make us sick to our stomachs - surveillance tech, data mining tools, algorithms that reinforce social biases - because we don’t have the power to say no? This is also a point that is not only in the range of "lack of perspective" but actively dishonest. Yes, you can say "no," - which is not true for occupations with codified career paths (medicine, academia, law, military) and all jobs in which you literally cannot afford 2 months to search for a job. I turned down quite a few offers in markets that (according to my beliefs) I feel are harming the world. Yes, it means turning down offers with 2x salary. Just because there is a temptation does not mean we must follow it. > Your profile says "Co-founder and CTO" which means you are biased against unions Bolt to assume that. I had a start-up for 2.5 years. Before that (and now), I worked freelance consulting and contract work. In any case, I am based in Europe and believe in the European approach to social security, healthcare, free education, and minimal wage. I vote for parties that opt for higher taxes to support such.
• deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
• archsurface 2y ago
  Not all dev jobs are like that. There is only one country called the USA.
  • SoftTalker 2y ago
    And even in the USA they are not. I never work more than 40 hours, have ample time off, and am never under very much stress at work. If things don't get done today, well they will be there tomorrow. Now granted, I don't make the money that I used to make at a 60+ hour a week startup with weekends and all-nighters not uncommon. But it's worth it, and it's still enough to live on comfortably.
• whoknowsidont 2y ago
  Some of you are outing yourselves as not having any real world, let's just call them... issues. >as victims of the global system. You know if I were to be REALLY generous and take your statements in good-faith, that still wouldn't change the fact that injustice is injustice. Being murdered is not the same thing as having your wallet stolen, but that doesn't mean you should throw up your hands with a thought-terminating cliche and go "well it could have been worse! Guess I should just let them have it and not do any follow up!" Really, really confused take to be quite honest.
• medhir 2y ago
  two things can be true: - tech work is relatively privileged - we, as tech workers, are losing out immensely due to a lack of collective bargaining I look at the recent SAG-AFTRA strike as a reference: these are jobs with similarly privileged work conditions. However, there being a union meant they could inflict significant pain on industry players until their demands around AI training were met. Meanwhile, we’re all just keeping our heads down hoping the market improves at the same time the biggest players are using our inputs to train even better models. Just because our work conditions are better than other professions doesn’t negate the notion that we are being actively exploited to our own detriment.
  • noduerme 2y ago
    This is true, but it's also true that any 12 year old kid with an ancient laptop on a random island in Indonesia will be proficient enough at writing code 4 years from now to take my job. There's no job security in big tech because it's a global marketplace. And it always will be.
• rapjr9 2y ago
  If your boss is constantly pressuring you to take on more work, then burnout is not a career choice. Ever have a coworker leave and get all their work dumped on you? Do your deadlines no longer allow time to relax and explore new ideas inbetween them? Managers all read the same magazines/blogs on how to get more out of their employees and it always seems to come down to beating the employees until they die, same as in the slave days. If you're not being pushed to do more, consider yourself lucky and stay there!
• advael 2y ago
  Some people got a career path like this, and in fact I either personally have or know someone who has experienced all of the things you're listing here as perks. I'd even say you likely get all that if you're in the 95th percentile of seniority and job stability among devs, or if we're talkin' about ten or fifteen years ago. Sounds like you're in one of those categories? Congrats. I'm not doing terribly myself either, albeit not quite that well. This always seems to be the argument. "How very privileged we are! Devs have so much going for us, we ought to be grateful! Clearly there is no reason we should collectively bargain." I dunno. I'm not into doing oppression olympics about my working conditions? There are still things that suck about how labor arrangements are in this profession, and this has become especially apparent during the recent multiple-year enormous layoff cycles in tech, and this is also indicative that we are, as a profession, perhaps losing some of the very scarcity-driven leverage that creates these conditions. Also, this kind of view really seems almost explicitly designed to buck solidarity with people who, in the same career path, don't have as many options as us, possibly because they are more junior or have nontraditional backgrounds or whatever. In fact, working conditions having high variance between devs for various reasons is one of the problems unions try to solve
• bryanrasmussen 2y ago
  >Software engineering is one of the ways of playing life in "easy mode" (I moved from academia over a decade ago, and I know the difference). well I have worked all sorts of physically demanding jobs, digging ditches, building offices, tearing down offices... So yes Software Engineering is easy - except when it's not. When it's easy it is real easy. When it's not it is significantly worse than most of the time at these other jobs. It is hard to explain the stress that a computer can give you when it is refusing for hours to do what you tell it to, but that stress is a lot worse than the stresses of landscaping in my experience.
• fjfaase 2y ago
  This is true and not at all. Last year, I quit my job, because I was in the process of getting a burn-out. It was primarily because management refused to give me recognition for my efforts. (I dreamed about it last night.) While I was unemployed, I did voluntairy work at a farming coop, physical labour, often simple weeding. Working there for just one morning per week felt more rewarding than working as a SWE. You could always see the results of your work with your own eyes.
  • joquarky 2y ago
    I quit a 24-year SWE job after reaching KPI-induced burnout. Volunteering three hours at the food bank makes me feel better than any day I spent at that job.
• DeathArrow 2y ago
  >In many professions, quitting means the end of a career - or at least a serious setback; in tech, it means getting many messages on LinkedIn. That was the case a few years ago, when interest rates were 0 or below 0 and during the pandemics when IT experienced a boom. I was layed off a the start of the year and it took two months to get some offers. It was much harder to find employment than 3 years ago. I went through more than 150 applications and tens of interviews.
• ForTheKidz 2y ago
  Eh, most of the benefits are offset by the stress of having to care about the needs of corporate america and all the ensuing implications of making a living by destroying society. Just because it's not a physical job doesn't mean this stress won't kill you. It's also worth noting that developers remain some of the most proportionately under-compensated jobs compared to the revenue we drive and we're all aware of it. It's the shareholders that need to justify their existence.
• KronisLV 2y ago
  > But let's not paint ourselves, members of one of the most privileged occupations, as victims of the global system. Everyone can be victims of the "global system" at the same time, even if not to equal degrees. I live in Latvia. Teachers here are underpaid. So are firefighters. So are nurses. So are software developers, compared to most other countries, or even with what people could historically afford on a single salary. The economy could be worse, but it also kinda sucks for everyone. Using housing prices as a quick example: > U.S. home prices are rising significantly faster than incomes. After accounting for inflation, home prices jumped 118% from 1965 to 2021, while income had only increased by 15%. from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeownership_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeownership_in_the_United_St... > Between 2010 and the third quarter of 2023, house prices increased by 48% and rents by 22%. When comparing the third quarter of 2023 with 2010, house prices increased more than rents in 18 out of the 27 EU countries. > Over this period, house prices more than tripled in Estonia (+210%) and more than doubled in Hungary (+185%), Lithuania (+158%), Latvia (+141%), Austria (+123%), Czechia (+122%) and Luxembourg (+107%). Decreases were observed in Greece (-14%, see methodological notes), Italy (-8%) and Cyprus (-2%). > Rents increased in 26 EU countries with the highest rises in Estonia (+218%), Lithuania (+170%) and Ireland (+100%). The only decrease in rent prices was recorded in Greece (-20%). Latvia's rent increase was more modest than its house price increase at around 50%. from https://eng.lsm.lv/article/economy/economy/11.01.2024-latvia-among-europes-long-term-house-price-growth-leaders.a538055 https://eng.lsm.lv/article/economy/economy/11.01.2024-latvia... (more recent data, but the trend is pretty clear) > According to Money.com.au, house prices have skyrocketed nationally by 3435 per cent since 1975 compared with just 1183 per cent growth in full-time wages. from https://www.news.com.au/finance/economy/interest-rates/proof-its-never-been-tougher-to-buy-a-home-in-australia/news-story/8c514f10d6d0b6d6e79b53ad5bf328d8 https://www.news.com.au/finance/economy/interest-rates/proof... Seems pretty global, same with the prices of various goods being more or less out of control, education costs, healthcare costs, everything. It doesn't mean that my profession isn't privileged in many ways, I still try to help my friends when I can.
• PeterStuer 2y ago
  "I moved from academia over a decade ago, and I know the difference" Pressures are different indeed, but let's not pretend academia of all places is any less "priviledged" Btw, most professors age well into retirement. Trying to find a software engineer over 55 is looking for a needle in a haystack that definitely will not make it past the next boom/bust cycle. Agism in this field is endemic, probably the worst of any in knowledge work.
• hnbad 2y ago
  > Don't get me wrong - I am all for criticism of grind and exploitation. But let's not paint ourselves, members of one of the most privileged occupations, as victims of the global system. Not having it as bad as others is not the same as not being a victim. We really need to drop this attitude because it misaligns our loyalties with those who have no reason to be loyal to us in return. It's a false consciousness. Wealth and income are widely pushed as "class" distinctors in culture and media for a reason. They blur the lines and mislead us about our place in the system. Yes, many software jobs pay handsome salaries for now. But as soon as they can, companies will drop those salaries and cut those jobs because we're a cost center, even if the "assets" we create pad out the balance sheet more than a cleaner or receptionist could. Wealth can enable you to become an enterpreneur which in turn can enable you to become part of the billionaire class if you make it through all of the filters against all the odds. But even small business owners are only a few bad months (or in the US maybe even just one bad health event) away from the rest of us plebs, unless they are so tightly integrated (which almost always means family, i.e. something outside their control) that they can get the support to recover. We're all suffering from grind and exploitation. Some of us suffer more directly but just having lucked into a position so far ahead from the bulldozer chasing us that you can't see it, doesn't mean it won't run you over if you have to stop or fall and can't get up in time. That bulldozer exists by choice. You didn't get a say in it, nor did I, but that doesn't mean its existence is inevitable or unchangeable. Capitalism isn't a law of nature any more than feudalism was. Nor does capitalism have to evolve (and it has evolved, likely even within your lifetime) into something better, especially if those at the receiving end of it are placated by being told that others having it worse.
• CrispyKerosene 2y ago
  Hows that boot taste?
• noduerme 2y ago
  I'm not a fan of the original post, but this is absurd and offensive. You're taking the creme-de-la-creme of tech workers and comparing them to medical interns. "Playing life in easy mode"? Would you say that an MD who chooses to specialize in, say, dermatology, and ends up the head of a department, and spends a lot of their 50s golfing, has lived life in easy mode? Probably not, because as you explained, grind is not optional to get to an optimal point in one's career. Is it privileged to be able to live in a society where you can develop your career and not, like, have to go pick crops for three months? Yeah. Does the geographical freedom of SWEs (in a minority of cases) exceed that of a higher-paid traveling nurse? Sure, but that's a trade-off; the engineer takes less money than the nurse, but gets to travel further. I'm not asserting that your comment was offensive because I'm whining about global systems of grind and exploitation. It's offensive because you seem to think that no one in the tech industry outside AAA game dev has come up from the mines. I started my career as an unpaid intern, then made $7.50/hr and freelanced on the side. I worked 12-16 hour days coding, and/or 8 hour days while doing 8 hour shifts as a waiter and taxi driver. So now, 30 years later, I can bill $300/hr and work a few hours a day. Is that easy mode? And if you're referring to the people half my age who are trying to make it in this industry, they have it much harder than I did. They're living after the time when they can specialize and be adopted in as part of the technical debt for clients or companies. They have virtually no chance at job security. They have to constantly scrape and invent in order to stay relevant. So yes, people like me may appear to have easy lives compared with 24 year old medical students, but you seem to be taking for granted the lateral shift in your career - I suppose it's probably easier mucking with python than writing academic papers - but you're taking for granted your status, age, job security, etc. And missing the fact that other people do not get into this industry because it's easy, but rather because they are up for a challenge. And how many people have said that working in academia is playing life in easy mode? That's the joke of the century.
• rhubarbtree 2y ago
  Academia is a much easier, low productivity, self-interested career than engineering in my experience. Most academics claim they work hard but have very poor time management and work intensely in short periods whilst taking huge amounts of holiday and flexible time off. Most universities are empty during the summer months. Even at top tier universities in the UK I was shocked how absent people were around anything remotely close to a holiday period. In the commercial world you have to sing for your supper, as PG put it, and that is much much harder.