10 ms·

Moving away from US cloud services

• thisdougb 2y ago
  I moved from GitHub to self-hosted gitolite. I use a (standard) Makefile in each repo, which my deploy job runs (make test, make build, etc). I use githooks to do various automation. It's really not that much different to GH Actions, and not more work. But it's much faster, and easier to work with. If you're working in a team, then PRs are hard to replace.
  • Lyngbakr 2y ago
    What drew you to gitolite over alternatives (e.g., Forgejo)?
  • fhd2 2y ago
    My company is looking into a move from GitLab to https://forgejo.org https://forgejo.org (Codeberg, essentially). Seems way easier to self host. Seems fine so much for all my team's needs.
    • archerx 2y ago
      This looks interesting, I have self hosted gitlab but it is so slow and I don't need most of the features it offers. Thanks for sharing!
    • homebrewer 2y ago
      Yeah, we've been using gitea for five years, and from administrator's point of view it's one of the easiest things to self host. Updates can happen automatically and require very little downtime, and it's light on server resources. In comparison, Gitlab was a massive pain and became close to unusable on that same server before we migrated to gitea, even though Gitlab was used just for code hosting, and gitea is used for everything it supports (container image and package repositories, issues, etc).
  • sirolimus 2y ago
    Why not gitea?
  • baq 2y ago
    For code review and merge workflow gerrit used to be good a decade ago, it's probably good today, too. Github PRs are strictly worse today than what I remember from gerrit back then.
    • Jolter 2y ago
      Gerrit is great if your team is willing to work in a rebase based workflow! We handled huge repos on Gerrit (and a huge number of them) at my previous employer with very few problems. It does take a certain effort to self-host it, but then what doesn't.
  • greensh 2y ago
    what advantage does gitlolite over gitea? If i wanted to replace GitHub my intuition would be to replace it with gitea. It seems to have similar interface, pull requests, workers etc to gh.
    • oefrha 2y ago
      Gitolite is a bare bones git server. Gitea is a forge. They’re not remotely in the same class of software. Gitolite doesn’t even have a web view for the repos, you need a separate package like cgit for that; never mind project management features.
  • MathMonkeyMan 2y ago
    On my first team in 2011 we used Phabricator before the company sprung for github enterprise. Phabricator was fine; you could even just copy/paste the output of `git diff` into a form on the UI as an alternative to pushing to a monitored branch.
• datadeft 2y ago
  My problem is that I do not want to replace one centralilzed service with another. I do not see any difference between the US and the EU (or Australia) in handling privacy. Most politicians are super keen on destroying privacy for people, for the "good cause". There are so many examples of this I lost count. We need strong encryption and true peer-to-peer networks where the connection is going through random routes (impossible to predict) and there is no government controll of any of the nodes it touches.
  • Sander_Marechal 2y ago
    Perfect is the enemy of good. The EU has it's flaws, but if you can't see the difference between the US privacy climate and the EU privacy climate then you need a reality check.
    • piokoch 2y ago
      Yup, in the USA you can still have VPN server that is not storing logs, something that is simply illegal in European Union countries. In the USA you can purchase prepaid SIM card in Wallmart with cash, put it in your phone and you have anonymous phone number, again, this is illegal in Europe in a typical stupid European way, as any criminal who needs an anonymous card would pull in to the retailer some drunk or homeless person and get that SIM anyway. But "normals" can forget about privacy, unless they want to play with something like silent.link.
      • jve 2y ago
        True regarding logs. False regarding SIM cards. European.
        • chgs 2y ago
          Not true regarding logs given mullvad is the only half-trustworthy vpn provider out there.
      • cbg0 2y ago
        Mullvad is based in Sweden which is part of the EU: https://mullvad.net/en/help/no-logging-data-policy https://mullvad.net/en/help/no-logging-data-policy Obviously, it goes without saying you should never trust something you can't verify, regardless of which country the VPN operator is based in.
• teekert 2y ago
  I find the Proton tools to be a joy to use and I use them for my business. For clients, I can't do that to them. Microsoft completely dominates and people just expect to be able to video call, chat, work on docs, etc. MS365 remains incredible value for money and pretty optimal for normies.
  • fldskfjdslkfj 2y ago
    I recently had to use MS365 for a short time and I hated every moment.
    • wkat4242 2y ago
      Absolutely. Microsoft stuff is so mediocre and incompetent. They get away with it because they're pretty much the only game in town for enterprise. So there is no drive for them to improve in any way. But really, companies choose Microsoft because it's all connected (easy to manage for them) and fairly cheap if you take the whole package and because "nobody ever got fired for picking Microsoft". But AAA third-party solutions are always way better in terms of UX and features. Picking Microsoft tools always feels like you're settling for less. I manage a lot of the microsoft 365 stuff at work and I really hate my job. Also the condescending attitude of their employees and 'consultants'.
    • nunez 2y ago
      I found O365 to be much better suited for Windows admins on large teams, IMO.
  • CER10TY 2y ago
    Would you recommend moving from Google Workspace to Proton? Including emails and so on.
    • teekert 2y ago
      Well, there are no (classical) office tools. There is a text editor, but no spreadsheet. Their "Drive" solution is very mvp, you can collaborate on text docs, but it's very minimal. Email is great, looks great, fast, nice feature set. Calendar is mvp-ish, I can accept invites and they go into the calendar and they have nice links to Teams or Meet etc, pretty seamless. They also have widget for a iPhone now, but it's early days. ProtonPass is great, at least as great as BitWarden, sharing credentials with family and colleagues is a lot easier (not that "organizations" stuff, just click, share, done). My iPhone syncs pictures to Proton Drive, but the app needs to be opened to do that, which is annoying. Other than that, works well, pics are safe. I really want a Linux client and an API (or rsync endpoint?) so I can push backups there (I have 3 TB drive for the family/business combined). Their Bitcoin wallet was wasted effort if you ask me, would have preferred video chat or something. Make it more like NextCloud with a dashboard perhaps. But when they make a new product, it's mvp but generally immediately works very well. I have a lot of trust in their solutions to just work. But you can use almost everything on the free tier, so just try it out! The migration tool also works really well.
• ramonverse 2y ago
  Since you are switching anyways you could try to adopt local first and that way you make sure you don't have yet another cloud dependency ie political dependency.
• drstewart 2y ago
  >At the very least, think twice before signing up for new US services. Consider European services instead. To be clear, this Europe? https://www.europol.europa.eu/media-press/newsroom/news/european-police-chiefs-call-for-industry-and-governments-to-take-action-against-end-to-end-encryption-roll-out https://www.europol.europa.eu/media-press/newsroom/news/euro...
  • cbg0 2y ago
    Pretty much every country has interests groups trying to push backdoors into end-to-end encrypted services, what's your point?
    • nickslaughter02 2y ago
      Not everybody's chief has a nickname "Zensursula" (German word for censorship ("Zensur") and her given name ("Ursula")).
      • cbg0 2y ago
        This is such a forced pun.
      • hnbad 2y ago
        She got that nickname for her push to mandate provider-level blocking of requests to foreign servers distributing CSAM while working as the German minister for family affairs, which critics argued would create a slippery slope by establishing a practice of forcing ISPs to implement network request blocking (IP bans). This push materialised in the Zugangserschwerungsgesetz, which while being passed in 2010 was never actually applied and eventually repealed. Around the same time the German minister for the interior argued for police powers to use trojans (computer viruses) for investigations, which likewise passed and seemingly has been used with very mixed success - it's worth noting that the use of this practice by US federal law enforcement was already well-documented at the time. The USA PATRIOT Act on the other existed and had been used extensively (as far as we know) before expiring in 2020. But even without the USA PATRIOT Act, the US is well-documented in using warrantless surveillance: https://proton.me/blog/us-warrantless-surveillance https://proton.me/blog/us-warrantless-surveillance The existence of nicknames is a weird metric to judge a jurisdiction's attitude to privacy by when you have actual evidence of behavior you can compare directly. EU governments trying to push for special powers for law enforcement to sabotage encryption and failing (remember: the UK is not in the EU anymore) is very different from what US federal agencies and law enforcement are not only permitted to do but also are doing and have been doing for decades. It's probably not necessary to point out the limits corporations face under EU privacy laws compared to the US.
• m00dy 2y ago
  I wonder if shifting to cloud providers in the EU will lead to the rise of giant European cloud companies in both technology and infrastructure, or if this is just a short-term trend.
  • drstewart 2y ago
    There isn't even a short-term trend. We saw posts like this a few years ago (in the blog post even admits he tried this before) and they went nowhere, just like this "movement" will.
    • m00dy 2y ago
      I mean, let’s divide it into before and after the Trump era. Will we see the same trend once the new sheriff in town steps down for peace?
      • perks_12 2y ago
        From a tech standpoint, nothing changed with Trump. The NSA had all the backdoors before Trump.
        • m00dy 2y ago
          It's not just about backdoors; on a broader level, we're shifting toward a protectionist economic model, which contrasts sharply with globalism.
      • ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
        Bold of you to assume that the new sheriff in town (or any successors) will ever step down.
        • timeon 2y ago
          From perspective outside of US it is not that relevant (in this context) if there is change after this. Because as we have seen in 2016 and now - there is no stability.
• ethan_smith 2y ago
  I moved my side project websites off of US VPS providers to an old MacBook Air 2015 I had lying around.
  • submeta 2y ago
    Side projects? What critical data did you have in them? Honestly curious. I am all in to move away from google, dropbox, etc.
  • pyinstallwoes 2y ago
    How do you manage it?
    • ethan_smith 2y ago
      Simple docker compose and cloudflare tunnel
• chgs 2y ago
  When I started in tech, Freedom was key. You put a value in your freedom to run and modify your code. Over time that has not only regressed to just free to run, but not even that - you have to have permission to run your stuff It’s easier to be a vassal. I won’t say good luck though. Live in favour of the king and you’ll be fine. Until the king does something and you get to kiss his ring.
• INTPenis 2y ago
  One relatively simple thing we're missing on the Swedish cloud market is someone offering OIDC SSO, Chat, Video meetings, e-mail, calendar and file sharing. I can't even say which European company offers this, Proton maybe? Being a long time open source advocate I think it can be done, but system integration would never be as good as MS or Google. But this simple platform would get a lot of SMB's to migrate.
  • fbn79 2y ago
    Legally Proton is not based in European Union nor European Economic Area. Switzerland is extra EU just like USA, China or Russia
    • tonyhart7 2y ago
      You cant compare switzerland to china or russia lol its more like EU is 10, switzerland is 11 or 12
      • rrr_oh_man 2y ago
        Then compare it to Singapore.
        • tonyhart7 2y ago
          it is still better than russia or china, comparable to switzerland I might argue it is better than switzerland, most asia pacific data center is in singapore for southern hemisphere
        • jampekka 2y ago
          Some comparisons: Singapore is a de-facto single party state with widespread government censorship, heavily limited civil rights, government/ruling party controlled media and heavy ethnic discrimination. Switzerland OTOH is almost a model country for such metrics. https://freedomhouse.org/country/singapore/freedom-world/2024 https://freedomhouse.org/country/singapore/freedom-world/202... https://freedomhouse.org/country/switzerland/freedom-world/2024 https://freedomhouse.org/country/switzerland/freedom-world/2...
• october8140 2y ago
  I get decentralized is a thing but maybe "being able to easily migrate my stuff to another service" could be a thing too.
• Dzidas 2y ago
  The biggest elephants in the room are cloud providers, but I didn't find an easy alternative yet (hetzner, ovhcloud). ATM, the idea to the business is sold, that data resides somewhere near by in a datacenter, EU proximity. However, the EU businesses are realising that, well, whole region is at a mercy of one person.
  • system2 2y ago
    OVH and Hetzner are excellent companies. I doubt there would be any problem with them in the future.
    • mrweasel 2y ago
      Both companies are excellent, and I'd absolutely trust them with my business, but neither can replace something like AWS. The friends I have at companies who are actively using AWS are all relying on a fairly large number of AWS only services. Either they'd need to stand up their own replacements and host those services on VMs, or in some cases rewrite parts of their stack. E.g. if you're using AWS Cognito then you're not going anywhere.
      • n3storm 2y ago
        IMHO Aws is designed for totally embracing their philosophy and language. You don't understand two Aws Devs talking to each other. Even organizations are internally structured for Aws operations. This create something even stronger than a dependency.
        • chgs 2y ago
          Making yourself a subsided of Amazon was never wise. You exist as long as Amazon allows you to. It’s modern feudalism.
          • mrweasel 2y ago
            > Making yourself a subsided of Amazon was never wise True, but the AWS pricing doesn't make sense otherwise. If you're not using the managed services, then the value proposition is no longer there. Using those services is what allows you to build massive systems for relatively cheap, with much less staff. We had a project that was to be moved from on-prem to Azure (same deal), it went from thousands of Euros per month to fitting into the a free-tier, but only because we could use managed services. Spinning up the same VMs would cost more than hosting it ourselves.
• aucisson_masque 2y ago
  About Bitwarden, i have a setting to use European server when I connect to and register a new account. Wouldn’t it have been easier to just migrate from Bitwarden us server to European server ? Proton pass free tier lack feature compared to Bitwarden. Beside id argue that no cloud is better than European cloud. There is keepass for instance, with syncthing it works pretty well.
  • usrnm 2y ago
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CLOUD_Act https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CLOUD_Act It doesn't matter where the servers are located physically
  • MartijnHols 2y ago
    Even on European servers, it’s still controlled by a US organisation, so if Bitwarden is required to shut down access, they will. For an example where this happens, this court verdict from The Netherlands shows Microsoft's Dutch branch refusing to grant access to data (on its EU servers) of a Dutch company, to a Dutch curator who by law must be given access, because of trade sanctions on the majority owner: https://uitspraken.rechtspraak.nl/details?id=ECLI:NL:RBAMS:2022:4452 https://uitspraken.rechtspraak.nl/details?id=ECLI:NL:RBAMS:2...
  • chgs 2y ago
    You can run vault warden just fine. Open source Beats Closed source Beats Managed service from Europe Beats Managed service from America
• thrance 2y ago
  Anyone knows a good github/lab alternative that is hosted in Europe? That article scared me of the potential loss of my code.
  • ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
    It's pretty easy to self-host a gitlab instance using docker.
  • GardenLetter27 2y ago
    Codeberg? Self-hosted Forgejo?
  • SSLy 2y ago
    codeberg? git as remote repo also works just with a remote host over SSH.
  • ddon 2y ago
    We switched to self hosted gitea, so far so good.
• iagooar 2y ago
  [flagged]
  • pyinstallwoes 2y ago
    [flagged]
  • cinntaile 2y ago
    Something important to keep in mind... It's the current US leadership blowing up relationships, not the other way around.
    • mlindner 2y ago
      That's arguable. If you're in an unequal relationship the best way to go about them is to reset them to a base equal state and then build the relationship again.
      • cbg0 2y ago
        "Equal" is a very relative concept, and trying to move from unequal to that in a month or two after decades of having a reputation of being a stable partner is only going to make it more difficult.
    • iagooar 2y ago
      The US has been vocal about Europe having to spend more on defense as part of NATO. Yet most countries didn't, preferring to spend the money on other things. Governments of the largest European economies have been so full of themselves, yet now their strongest ally is asking them to actually deliver. I understand that for Europeans this might cause a negative reaction, but the reaction is pure emotion, not an attempt to understand both sides of the partnership. The current administration has been pushing things very fast, that is true. Maybe too fast. But it is also refreshing to see that you can get rid of bureaucracy if there is a strong will. And let's not forget that the change in the US administration has had a direct impact on the debate around de-regulation and making the business environment in the EU more friendly for entrepreneurs and new business. But it came only as a reaction to what Trump is doing, not as part of a clear strategy or execution plan.
• systemf_omega 2y ago
  Privacy rights in the EU are being eroded as we speak. Unless people there get off their high horse, they'll succumb to the same level of authoritarianism and surveillance as in the states. Also, sorry, but the idea that EU countries are in any position to build a serious hyperscaler is pure fiction. Growth, funding, risk, innovation - those are alien concepts to European entrepreneurs.
  • leftcenterright 2y ago
    counterpoint: not everyone needs a hyperscaler. Especially with open source like Kubernetes out there. Of course the more experience companies have managing it, better the service becomes. But I don't see why it can't happen within EU.
    • systemf_omega 2y ago
      K8s is an orchestration tool. You still need someone managing the physical hardware, and do it realiably at scale. That's what a hyperscaler does.
      • leftcenterright 2y ago
        I do understand that, my point was that the pieces needed to provide it as a managed service are much easier to come up with in comparison to what AWS had to do with Fargate. - https://www.scaleway.com/en/kubernetes-kapsule/ https://www.scaleway.com/en/kubernetes-kapsule/ - https://www.exoscale.com/syslog/introducing-scalable-kubernetes-service/ https://www.exoscale.com/syslog/introducing-scalable-kuberne...
    • m00dy 2y ago
      dude, EU is home for around 500 million people. (correct me if I'm wrong). EU definitely needs a hyperscaler. Every single one of these people will need a digital identity along with their compute rights.
      • leftcenterright 2y ago
• noirscape 2y ago
  A shame that OP recommends Proton. The fact they don't support open email protocols like IMAP/SMTP without an extremely frustrating proxy setup is what ultimately turned me away from their service. Being able to "just" use a native mail client is pretty much a must. The vendor lock-in from something like Proton feels way worse as a result. Can't speak to Proton Pass, but it strikes me as a replacement that seems unnecessary: if Bitwarden is a problem, the server can be selfhosted, something which the OP seems to be familiar with. Some of the others feel of more... questionable issues to have with US cloud services; it's hard to find problems with Dockerhub and NPM that aren't just general problems with these services/the company behind them (mainly NPM). Maybe that's just because the public/private concern for both of those services is pretty different than the others mentioned here.
  • wkat4242 2y ago
    Yes I'm not a fan of Proton either. Especially because they hammer so much on their "Encryption" thing while 95% of the mails you get will come unencrypted from one of the big tech parties, Google, Microsoft, Amazon. So what is the point, really? And because of this indeed it is very hard to connect to it. Email is just dead as a tech. It's no surprise nobody uses it for sensitive content anymore but instead just uses it as a notification service ("Please log in to our portal to read your message"). I don't personally like bitwarden either because it uses a master password, I prefer "pass" which encrypts each password with your GPG key (which can be stored on a yubikey for hardware security). But yeah self hosted bitwarden is a good option too and very popular.
    • cassianoleal 2y ago
      > It's no surprise nobody uses it for sensitive content anymore I get password reset links for pretty much every website on email. Few things as sensitive as that. I also receive and send documents, signed or for signing, with pretty sensitive information, over email. I agree it shouldn't be used for those but it certainly still is.
      • wkat4242 2y ago
• zaggynl 2y ago
  Regarding Startpage: https://www.startpage.com/privacy-please/startpage-articles/startpage-and-privacy-one-group https://www.startpage.com/privacy-please/startpage-articles/... https://web.archive.org/web/20210729190016/https://support.startpage.com/index.php?/Knowledgebase/Article/View/1275/0/what-is-startpages-relationship-with-privacy-onesystem1-and-what-does-this-mean-for-my-privacy-protections https://web.archive.org/web/20210729190016/https://support.s... The original link is dead for some reason: https://support.startpage.com/index.php?/Knowledgebase/Article/View/1275/0/what-is-startpages-relationship-with-privacy-onesystem1-and-what-does-this-mean-for-my-privacy-protections https://support.startpage.com/index.php?/Knowledgebase/Artic... TL;DR: Startpage appears owned by an ad company? https://web.archive.org/web/https://www.bizjournals.com/losangeles/news/2017/09/20/system1-raises-270-million-for-consumer-intent.html https://web.archive.org/web/https://www.bizjournals.com/losa... Could someone explain to me how an ad company and a privacy company work together? Seems like opposing interests? Maybe Ecosia will be a good alternative later on: https://blog.ecosia.org/eusp/ https://blog.ecosia.org/eusp/ Another suggestion would be https://searx.space/ https://searx.space/
  • wkat4242 2y ago
    Searx is great (I use SearXNG personally) but be aware that it's something that lifts along on the main search engines. It's not a search engine, just a meta one. It still depends on the big US ones for its results. Just like Kagi for that matter (though they do have a small crawler themselves, their main results are metasourced from various large engines)
• wkat4242 2y ago
  I don't like all of his suggestions, like startpage. But I have very good experience with Scaleway, much more so than OVH or Hetzner. Hetzner demanded ID photos for everything. And OVH is a chaos. Scaleway is more like an Amazon type cloud and their support is really good and direct. Also cheaper than Amazon (and without the whole ratmaze of fee structures!)
• BLKNSLVR 2y ago
  Man, I bet it feels clean and fresh like stepping out of the shower after playing sport in the sun for hours.
• frereubu 2y ago
  > Wrapping up - Migrating away from US cloud services was easier than I expected. This is absolutely not the main takeaway and I find it difficult to see how he could write this - there are gaping holes. Git repos (it's too difficult). NPM (ditto). Startpage uses Google's index. The only meaningful switch he mentions is Proton, but as other comments have pointed out they have vendor lock-in problems. The real takeaway from this is that it's currently impossible in any meaningful sense. It feels like there's a real opportunity here for European companies to step up and make a big play, but will they? I really, really hope so. I'd jump ship in a heartbeat if I could. Edit: To be clear, the reasons in brackets were the author's, not mine.
  • Skinney 2y ago
    > Git repos (it's too difficult) Sourcehut > Startpage uses Google's index. If they have enough users/make enough money, they'll make their own. Ecosia and Qwant (both european search engines) are working together to make their own index. In any case, even if a european is a proxy for an american service, you need to prove that there is a market for an european equivalent for change to happen.
    • arthurmorgan 2y ago
      TIL that Sourcehut is or has been moving to the EU/Netherlands, thanks!
      • bayindirh 2y ago
        They have moved to Netherlands. They were planning, but Murphy knocked (kicked?) on the door as a massive DDOS, so they expedited the move, a lot.
    • deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    • palotasb 2y ago
      > Sourcehut Is it there yet? > Notice: sr.ht is currently in alpha, and the quality of the service may reflect that. As such, payment is currently optional for most features, and only encouraged for users who want to support the ongoing development of the site. For a summary of the guarantees and limitations that the alpha entails, see this reference. – https://sourcehut.org/pricing https://sourcehut.org/pricing
• aetherspawn 2y ago
  Hey so I’m pretty sure you can host your own business mail for free these days without a static IP. This is basically how it would go: Cloudflare Tunnel installed on your box (free) Cloudflare Email Worker connected to your domain which writes emails to a KV store (generous free tiers) Cloudflare Worker that downloads the emails from the KV store and uses Worker TCP sockets to send it to your mail server over the tunnel via a TCP port ie 25000 (CF blocks 25) For sending mail in blue, local mail server uses smtp2go or Azure Communication Services. I’ve pretty much convinced that a cheap Synology rack is the best way to do this because it replaces Azure ID (Synology SSO) and Exchange (Synology Mail) which self hosted non-SaaS in the one appliance, it gets security updates, and it has a easy web interface for setting everything up. Haven’t managed to write the Cloudflare worker code yet, but found this guys repo and he’s done pretty much all the heavy lifting: https://github.com/Sh4yy/cloudflare-email https://github.com/Sh4yy/cloudflare-email
  • mwinatschek 2y ago
    I thought the whole point of this post is to get away from US clouds. So why should I choose Cloudflare and Azure in the end?
    • aetherspawn 2y ago
      I think it’s better to have all your mail data on prem. You’d only be using US companies as a transit. Yeah there’s some lock-in with all the free Cloudflare stuff but you could probably get it running again without CF pretty fast if you needed to. If you have a static IP, skip the CF stuff! OP suggested Proton but I’m not sure I’d want to go from one mail host to another. That’s just shifting trust and what I’m taking away from happenings of US at the moment is that being insulated from the events of the world is a good thing.
  • ddalex 2y ago
    isn't cloudflare a US corp ?
    • fiatjaf 2y ago
• rwieruch 2y ago
  Didn't see Coolify [0] combined with Hetzner mentioned in the article! [0] https://coolify.io/ https://coolify.io/
• lifeline82 2y ago
  [dead]
• rambambram 2y ago
  > Startpage is owned by a Dutch company which is operated from its headquarters in The Hague, the Netherlands, and is a part of System1, a publicly traded company based in the United States. I was hoping Startpage was the successor of startpagina.nl, which I used as a kid in 1995 to 'browse' the web. One of the oldest Dutch websites that I can remember. Fond memories!
  • yread 2y ago
    Still pretty cool. It has an "View anonymously" button that basically proxies your requests through them
• weatherlite 2y ago
  Looks unrealistic to me. Sure, for one guy with lots of energy and know how its possible. Try migrating academia, industry, entire government branches etc. That's not gonna be easy.
  • marpar20 2y ago
    I agree, but on the other hand: it's just software. We just need to build easy few-clicks transitions for the most popular usages. Like Azure, didn't catch up with AWS on day one. They first added the most used features. The US software moat is large, but I bet the most used features of the most used services are easier to replicate.
    • weatherlite 2y ago
      It's a 2 step process, first you have to rebuild the thing (or most of the thing) yourself, which is already a huge undertaking. Then you need to migrate everyone from their current stack to the new one (or new ones. You probably want to give more than one option). The migrating might even take longer than the building. I'm betting it mostly doesn't happen but we'll see.
  • Lutger 2y ago
    It isn't easy or realistic, yet. But these things always start with the guys and girls with energy and skills. They write blogposts, it gets picked up. Somebody starts making improvements, convinces their manager to do it. Slowly things start to improve, people start building tools, sharing knowledge. Some of these people also work in, or for academia, industry, government branches. Once enough people are ready to pay real euros, there will be entrepreneurs ready to provide solutions on the market, also in Europe. I don't buy the idea that Europa has lost all the big tech so we're doomed or something. No, maybe we won't have an aws/azure/google cloud competitor any time soon. But it has never been easier to start a software product, the thousands and thousands of SaaS services we rely on can easily be build from the ground up by devs from all over the world.
    • weatherlite 2y ago
• favflam 2y ago
  Is anyone migrating away from microservice architecture back to just big box single monolith blob like back in the 1990s/2000s? I really liked using Hetzner and pure metal. The only real hold-back I have from switching from Google is email and doing backups.
  • lagrange77 2y ago
    That would be HN, i guess.
• rambambram 2y ago
  Maybe one really needs 'the cloud' (whatever that is) or the accompanying services, I don't know, but I do know that good old webhosting is still around. At least here in The Netherlands. Good for email, good for websites and webapps, good for data storage. There are enough options to choose from the decentralized menu of hosting offerings. Most are cheap enough also, but watch out for the slightly bigger webhosting companies that are taken over one-by-one by some group of investors wanting to play AWS (and upping the prices by 400% or so).
  • 9dev 2y ago
    The cloud, speaking for small-to-medium companies, is two things; a directory server with file storage, email, and an attached suite of productivity tools (e.g. Microsoft 365 or Google Workspace), and virtual, distributed infrastructure (e.g. AWS, Google Cloud, or Azure). You can build the offerings commonly sold as "cloud" yourself, but it requires a ludicrously unreasonable amount of engineering work to reinvent the wheel and end up with a shitty solution that gets your users frustrated, guaranteed. We need a European contender (or multiple!) that can actually compete in one or both of these disciplines. There is going to be a huge market for this very soon.
    • rambambram 2y ago
      I did not necessarily need an explanation of what 'the cloud' is or isn't. I came to believe it's definition is vague on purpose. I found out it's (almost) the same old internet with new shiny marketing labels on it (I say 'almost' because clubs like Netflix probably need their movies stored near the end user for seamless HD streaming). With the end goal of getting everyone's data on someone else's server (so they can control it, eventually without your permission). It works because programmers who might understand technically what it is, usually don't call the shots when some Big Tech salesperson offers shiny new apps from the US. Luckily, I don't need a cloud. Not someone else's cloud, not even building my own cloud. Why? Because the technical progress required for me to save, work, share and publish stuff online (or locally on my computer) was already there from the '90s. And luckily, it's not standing still. Although every exec and marketing boy wants you to believe the only good stuff is the next hyped up stuff. We see the same thing happening with LLMs and AI. It's marketing fluff all around, by people who so fully believe in it that it becomes scary. And it's hard to argue against it, because it is impressive what LLMs can do. It's also bullshite and has nothing to do with reasoning, or thinking, or whatever human capabilities are projected onto a digital parrot (I don't want to ruffle some feathers, pun intended, a lot of people probably have good use for LLMs and it's still interesting that people work on these systems). A computer, an internet connection and some webhosting get's you more than far enough for most use cases. Without vendor lock-in. There's more to technology than only technology.
• nickslaughter02 2y ago
  I would like to see a movement more along the lines of "Moving away from cloud services", not just US services. Our computers are faster than ever, internet bandwidth is not a problem, public IPs affordable. Why not self host when possible?
  • fullstackwife 2y ago
    It is important to not lock yourself into any cloud provider. For example using services like Firebase, which are very good, means you cannot *easily* move to self host once your business idea turns out to be a success.
  • cbg0 2y ago
    For hobby projects this has always been an option, but a business will prefer the reliability and value add offered by cloud services.
  • falleng0d 2y ago
    Why move away though? The cloud subsidizes for "free" a lot of powerful services that the average user can only dream of self-hosting. And the price is what? Your browsing history? Personalized Ad's? Provided you don't AdBlock that is! I like the symbiotic relationship. I do believe in safeguarding yourself from getting locked out of your life due to your Google acc getting banned but outside of that I see no harm in getting free service in exchange for data. It's a fair deal.
    • microtonal 2y ago
      And the price is what? Your browsing history? Personalized Ad's? Provided you don't AdBlock that is! Regardless of what you think of using your private data in exchange for free services, the problem with the cloud owned by US companies is that to us outside the US it seems like any kind of blackmail now seems fair game. Since Vance threatened to drop NATO support if the EU regulates Musk's platforms [1], temporarily holding hostage our data to 'win' a trade war does not seem that far-fetched anymore. Also, if the US ends up trying to make good on their threat to annex Canada or Greenland, then we are strongly dependent on a hostile state. We learned some lessons from being dependent on Russian gas. [1] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/jd-vance-elon-musk-x-twitter-donald-trump-b2614525.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politic...
• mrtksn 2y ago
  I'm not sure how all this is going to play out but sooner than later local solutions will be enforced politically. >Migrating away from US cloud services was easier than I expected. So if the AI hype is worth its salt, the transition should at some point become trivial. "Hi Mistral, can you please build a OneDrive replacement? I will host in on my Linux server at OVH. Here is the documentation for OneDrive, make sure that the software works as described in the documentation. Then install it into my server using these credentials and put the client side apps in my Apps folder" I can't keep myself but thinking, what will happen when the mighty US tech companies that used to serve the planet get limited to 340M people in the half of the North American continent. So far it was just convenient to have your tech thingies in the USA even if you are just providing a niche service somewhere in south Italy from Montenegro. For years this created a positive feedback loop that fed into the centralization of capital and talent in USA, particularly in the Silicon Valley. It wasn't that Americans were writing better for loops than Europeans, it was that the global nature of the tech positioned itself at the place with least resistance and largest resources. Unfortunately this is coming to an end as a political choice by the USA itself, so what's next then? The moat of social networks and financial networks can indeed be broken by force if politicians choose to. This brings so much opportunity to non-Americans, it is sad for those who feel like global citizen and integrated with the whole humanity and its pretty much the dream of ant-globalists.
• stanislavb 2y ago
  It’s amazing how much damage two persons (Trump & Musk) can cause to the whole of the US. It’s damage for generations ahead.
  • RGamma 2y ago
    More like the frustrated Christians from the Heritage Foundation...
• dapf 2y ago
  [dead]
• hans_castorp 2y ago
  I don't know if it migrates CI pipelines as well (which is apparently what prevents the OP from leaving github), but Codeberg has a migration tool to automate the switch from Github (and others) to Codeberg. https://docs.codeberg.org/advanced/migrating-repos/ https://docs.codeberg.org/advanced/migrating-repos/
  • Lutger 2y ago
    Codeberg looks really nice, almost a copy of github, and is hosted in Germany while you can also self-host.
• justmarc 2y ago
  Very well written and justified. At the end almost everything in life is about interests. It's clearly in the best interests of one country, or union of countries, to do their thing and reduce reliance on others.
  • Lutger 2y ago
    Reducing reliance on others is primarily risk mitigation, which is increasingly perceived as necessary due to the rise of authoritarianism and wars, in western democracies at least. However, it is quite a sub-optimal solution, and in some cases very costly or close to impossible. It will almost always reduce economic growth, sometimes quite severely. It would be in the best interests of any one country or group of countries to not have the threats which we think we must de-risk in the first place. Free trade was the primary way we thought we could do that, or at least Europeans thought that was the way. We were wrong all these years. I admit I was one of them. I thought at some point in the near future we would collectively move past this thing called warfare. How naive.
  • adamc 2y ago
    It's striking how little discussion there is of the underlying risks that now make the US cloud less attractive. Trump is doing a lot of damage to the US as a services provider.
• wizzard0 2y ago
  > git repos: too hard I've found OneDev (selfhosted) to be an excellent alternative, unlike others which feel either half-baked or require a lot of configuration/maintenance
  • internet_points 2y ago
    You'd think git repos were the easiest to migrate, just `git remote set-url ` and go. But people get locked in with Issues and CI I guess.
• pbiggar 2y ago
  At Tech for Palestine, we've been investigating moving off many US based cloud services, with the intent of providing training, guidance, etc, for the broad population on how to do it and where to go. Our main conclusion so far is that many of the platforms that we look at, such as Signal or Protonmail, need serious UX improvements before they can be used by any serious chunk of the population (though for a HN audience, they can mostly put up with it).
• pmlnr 2y ago
  Interesting how for a (junior) dinosaur, like me, this was never a problem: I still run my mail, web, nextcloud, xmpp, forgejo, etc server on a former thin client under a cupboard. With a symmetrical fiber 1G connection it's been surprisingly reliable. FAQ: Yes, you can run self hosted mail. Yes, it's complex. No, it's not hard, but it takes time, as it is complex - if you want to understand it. If not, go for something like https://maddy.email/ https://maddy.email/ Yes, I have a fixed IP address with a reverse DNS entry configured. My ISP is zen.co.uk. Yes, I have reverse DNS, DKIM, DMARC, SPF, even mta-sts. No, I'm not switching from XMPP to Matrix - it's too server heavy, XMPP is more client oriented, which is my preference. I know about the UK's online safecty act, I used https://onlinesafetyact.co.uk/ra_my_self_hosted_single_user_mastodon_instance/ https://onlinesafetyact.co.uk/ra_my_self_hosted_single_user_... as a template to create mine. I think the act itself is basically useless and just paperwork, but something along it's ideas is actually needed. I block many AI crawlers from accessing code and photos, as eg. Claude is so aggressive that it's code crawlers makes my system sluggish, and I have no will to let anyone use my photos beyond printing them for their wall as decoration.
  • bsafta 2y ago
    Can you please write more details about "I block many AI crawlers from accessing code and photos"? The bots are trying to access your nextcloud instance? I'm also self hosting a few services, including nextcloud.
    • pmlnr 2y ago
      No, not nextcloud, it's the photos on my website. They are CC-BY-NC-ND-4.0 licensed, which genAI doesn't respect in any form. I added these in nginx.conf: map $http_user_agent $blocked_user_agent { default 0; "~*AI2Bot" 1; "~*AI2Bot-Dolma" 1; "~*Amazonbot" 1; "~*anthropic-ai" 1; "~*anthropic.com" 1; "~*Applebot" 1; "~*Applebot-Extended" 1; "~*AwarioBot" 1; "~*AwarioRssBot" 1; "~*AwarioSmartBot" 1; "~*Bytespider" 1; "~*CCBot" 1; "~*ChatGPT-User" 1; "~*ClaudeBot" 1; "~*Claude-Web" 1; "~*cohere-ai" 1; "~*cohere-training-data-crawler" 1; "~*DataForSeoBot" 1; "~*Diffbot" 1; "~*DuckAssistBot" 1; "~*FacebookBot" 1; "~*FriendlyCrawler" 1; "~*Googlebot-Extended" 1; "~*Google-CloudVertexBot" 1; "~*Google-Extended" 1; "~*GoogleOther" 1; "~*GoogleOther-Image" 1; "~*GoogleOther-Video" 1; "~*GPTBot" 1; "~*iaskspider/2.0" 1; "~*ICC-Crawler" 1; "~*ImagesiftBot" 1; "~*img2dataset" 1; "~*ISSCyberRiskCrawler" 1; "~*Kangaroo Bot" 1; "~*Meltwater" 1; "~*Meta-ExternalAgent" 1; "~*Meta-ExternalFetcher" 1; "~*OAI-SearchBot" 1; "~*Omgili" 1; "~*Omgilibot" 1; "~*openai.com" 1; "~*PanguBot" 1; "~*peer39_crawler" 1; "~*PerplexityBot" 1; "~*PetalBot" 1; "~*Scrapy" 1; "~*Seekr" 1; "~*SemrushBot" 1; "~*SemrushBot-OCOB" 1; "~*Sentibot" 1; "~*Sidetrade indexer bot" 1; "~*Timpibot" 1; "~*TurnitinBot" 1; "~*VelenPublicWebCrawler" 1; "~*webmeup-crawler.com" 1; "~*Webzio-Extended" 1; "~*YouBot" 1; } and then in each site's config: location / { if ($blocked_user_agent) { access_log /var/log/nginx/blockedbot.log ncsa; return 401; } But it's far from perfect. For better results, https://github.com/mitchellkrogza/nginx-ultimate-bad-bot-blocker https://github.com/mitchellkrogza/nginx-ultimate-bad-bot-blo... is probably better, but it was a tad too much for my needs.
• hnbad 2y ago
  The formatting actively prevented me from processing more than half the article's content but I agree with the premise as far as I was able to get it: if you're a EU-based company or individual it's a good idea to move away from US cloud services unless you're a subsidiary/employee of a US company. The legal concern for EU businesses should be self-evident given that EU-US data sharing provisions have been struck down again and again with every replacement inheriting the exact same issues of the one before it. There simply is no way for US-based companies to comply with EU data protection laws while still complying with US laws granting law enforcement and federal agencies warrantless surveillance powers - they'd actively have to break US laws to comply with the EU laws. That said, this is much more difficult for some things than others. If you're building on AWS, there's simply no drop-in replacement. Yes, there are EU equivalents in the same category but it's very different from "simply" switching between AWS, GCP and Azure. For package registries like NPM, moving away also means abandoning the standard ecosystem. For private packages this may be an option but for public packages at some point you will likely need to involve a US service. GitHub is kinda in the same boat - although alternatives to GitHub exist functionally, GitHub is also a platform for discoverability and ease of access. These platforms act somewhat as monopolies for these purposes simply through the network effect of so many people using them. Even Microsoft 365 (or Google Workspace) can be somewhat difficult to avoid given that so many things simply integrate easily with it compared to whatever company-wide "productivity suite" alternative you might want to use. That's without even getting into the quality and compatibility of the tools themselves. What seems far easier and often overlooked are the infinite number of dime-a-dozen SaaS providers: emails, monitoring, realtime, messaging, payments, etc etc. These provide an easy first step for most companies and by adopting these incrementally you can also more easily wean yourself off bulk service offerings like AWS. Of course this comes with the cost of a diverse stack: you can't simply hire an AWS certified devops guy and expect him to know how every single service works, on the contrary none of your folks might know how a given new service they need to add works. Another consideration that's becoming increasingly relevant is the (un-?)intentional vendor lock-in imposed by AI assistants: the LLM your devs or management is using might be able to generate a SOA app built on AWS or Azure but it will likely be less helpful integrating with a EU-based specialized service provider with a fraction of the userbase. Not to mention the AI assistant itself probably runs on US-owned infrastructure and is likely provided by a US-based company.
• reacharavindh 2y ago
  I was thinking about it today, I could think of an equivalent for EC2, S3, Software defined networking, archival, load balancers etc. But, one thing I could not easily come up with a replacement for is IAM. What would be an equivalent to IAM that a smallish cloud provider could use without building it from scratch? A system that provides roles, policies and granular permissions that can be attached to specific resources like the equivalent of S3 buckets, equivalent of EC3 VMs etc.
  • Hikikomori 2y ago
    For hetzner object storage probably generate keys for VM's and store them in Vault or similar tool to manage credentials, which you'll likely want anyway.
  • everfrustrated 2y ago
    You're right IAM is the major missing piece that is often forgotten. The closest I've seen is (ironically) this opensouce project from AWS https://www.cedarpolicy.com/ https://www.cedarpolicy.com/
• karanveer 2y ago
  i dont think its that easy as others pointed out but yes I think it would help to have some strict startups around EU maybe that force companies to comply...but then again, from indie hackers/indei makers sides, europe hasnt been too incentivized/friendly for/to start ups either compared to other parts of the world...I think this is one of the major reasons.
• ruicraveiro 2y ago
  Infomaniak is Swiss company and is a very nice alternative to 365. It covers emails, cloud storage and office editors (via OnlyOffice editors), and plenty more services. For source code, BitBucket is provided by Atlassian, which while not European is Australian, so also from a trustworthy country.
• Netcob 2y ago
  Even if you try to look at the situation from a detached POV I think you can't help but be baffled at how much influence the US is giving up for no apparent reason. It always felt like a house of cards here in Europe - we rely on defense from the US, we store so much of our data there, and almost all of our stuff comes from China or its area of influence. Now there's a guy at the top of the US who doesn't understand human interactions beyond anger, disgust and mindless loyalty. Or diplomacy beyond simple monetary transactions. He and his rich friend are getting rid of anything they don't understand (or that they don't understand to be of value to them right now), and apparently that's almost everything. We're living in interesting times. I wonder what game theorists are doing right now. All I know is that old joke about economists can't be true, about blindly assuming that everyone acts in their own best interest. People do factor in stupidity, right? But there must have been limits, and we're clearly far beyond those.
  • alfor 2y ago
    There is no countries in Europe, it's the Europe union, the WEF. Just look at your immigration policy and birth rate. Europe is commiting suicide. The US is waking up from that strange nightmare, going back to self gouvernance. Don't be afraid of Trump, look instead at what is happening at home. (all big US monopolies are trojan horses, same is true for China)
• wg0 2y ago
  I know this going to offend many but as an outsider, it is heart wrenching to see a foolish, greedy and extremely corrupt property dealer dismantling the greatest empire in the human history, piece by piece from its soft power (VOA, USAID) to its core functions (tempering with science and education) and there's no political force in sight that can be of any significance.
• scientism 2y ago
  Hetzner might get a lot of love here but it's another service that treats protonmail users as second class citizens since they ask for ID. I would avoid them just because of this.
  • SSLy 2y ago
    hetzner asks for ID if you use your own domain too
• philjohn 2y ago
  Surprised the author didn't realise that the dropdown by login boxes has been supported for some time by BitWarden, and more importantly, the backend is open source so you can run it yourself (there's also a third party implementation that's even simpler to run yourself).
• wiether 2y ago
  Self-hosted Gitea instance to replace GitHub Their "Gitea Actions" are based on "GitHub Actions", you don't even need to rewrite your CI Yaml
• flanked-evergl 2y ago
  [flagged]
• Brosper 2y ago
  Europe needs a separate ecosystem to not relay only on US technology.
• staticelf 2y ago
  I think it's good that people finally does this but people in EU should've been doing this many years ago when all the news of the surveillance broke out.
• Havoc 2y ago
  Yeah the last couple weeks has made me wary of anything US based too. Not just privacy but also just overall risk. They’ve suddenly become very erratic in their decision making. Quite hard to untangle it though. So much of the internet is US centric unfortunately. And even if you figure out the first layer of vendors they in turn are likely US reliant too
• deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
• mwinatschek 2y ago
  Hot take: If the US and EU secret services stop sharing any intel with each other, wouldn’t it be smarter for Europeans to use American services now more than ever? Because even if they’ll get their hands on your nudes, tax docs, or pirated movies, what could they even do with it? If you use an European company on the other hand and some local government wants to fuck you up, it’s much more easier to get their dirty hands onto you, your family, and your friends.
• specproc 2y ago
  For the Americans in the room with European customers, this all should be taken very seriously. From our perspective, the US has just declared itself hostile. No organisation their right mind would use a stack dominated by Russian companies, any organisation not considering the risks of having their tech US-based right now is being careless in the extreme. Even if Trump goes away tomorrow, this is a long term issue. America has demonstrated that it's an unreliable partner twice now. We can't make our planning on the basis of a dice roll for the Whitehouse.
• fransje26 2y ago
  The problem I see with this article, is that 3 of his chosen options rely on Swiss companies. And Switzerland is most definitely not the EU. For the time being their interest are very much aligned with the EU (and logically so, from a geographical and economic standpoint), but Switzerland also has a history of happily changing sides when their "neutrality" or their financial interests are at stake. Their historical dependency on finance (and their shady practices), combined with a high dependence on US trade, and high financial investments in the US make them particularly vulnerable to economical and financial blackmailing by the US. For a case-in-point, see the particularly weak response (or "diplomatic" response, staying charitable..) of Karin Keller-Sutter to the Trump developments, in a bid to hopefully avoid tariffs. Therefore, companies obeying Swiss laws simply do not offer the same "privacy" guarantee as companies obeying EU law. Secondarily, putting your trust in a company who's CEO openly supports the Republican party is, in the current context, very questionable. No matter the Proton PR denials and clean-up attempts after the facts.
• sylware 2y ago
  I am self-hosted, then I don't mind clouds, US or not, but... I am fed up with those "clouds" which are closing their eyes on the fact that they are weaponized by hackers, to point I started to think they actually want that, aka wrecking small hosting namely more business for them. Nearly everyday I get a scans/hack attempts(script kiddy grade for what I can see...) from some of them, this is seriously annoying and those 'scans/hack attempts' have been usually referenced by security communities, OFTEN FOR MONTHS IF NOT YEARS. No "cloud" is spared: aws, microsoft, google, ucloud.cn (the worst), ovh, etc... On top of that, they are "protecting" 'scanners' (onyphe/stretchoid/cyberresilience/etc), you know those guys who are scanning(when it is not some kind of script kiddy look-alike hack attempt) the whole internet, that 'for your own good' with the second line of their website being 'pricing (ahem... scan data)'. We all know that you do not scan any system without being explicitely asked for unless... military/police.... or mob.
• bad_user 2y ago
  On Bitwarden, at least for now, it's mostly Open Source … for techies, for the server-side, there's Vaultwarden which is easy to self-host and with self-hosting of FOSS software you achieve true data sovereignty. https://github.com/dani-garcia/vaultwarden https://github.com/dani-garcia/vaultwarden I'm an EU citizen and I worry about the US as well, but we need to be careful about this migration to EU services, as in some areas the European alternatives aren't good enough and people will go back to Big Tech, instead of preferring a FOSS solution that happens to have US dependencies.
• squarefoot 2y ago
  The big problem with non-Google mail services is Google itself that tends to flag mail coming from their domains as spam.
  • benrutter 2y ago
    Yeah - I think this is a huge problem for people wanting to self-host email as well. It's a pretty feasible thing to do technically speaking, but you'll likely end up being filtered into a whole lot of spam folders.
• sebazzz 2y ago
  What about using data encryption in the cloud and the US spying laws? How is that even compatible?
• moogly 2y ago
  Proton? Really?[1] Expressing personal opinions without thinking beforehand how they would land, when you're a CEO, is one thing, but the hamfisted attempts at clarification and then the PR team's scrambling afterwards to delete everything was a questionable look at best. Not inspiring confidence. [1]: https://theintercept.com/2025/01/28/proton-mail-andy-yen-trump-republicans/ https://theintercept.com/2025/01/28/proton-mail-andy-yen-tru...
• derangedHorse 2y ago
  > there's just no legal compatibility between EU privacy rights and US spying laws. “EU privacy rights” is bold framing considering what’s been going on with Apple: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2025/02/uks-demands-apple-break-encryption-emergency-us-all https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2025/02/uks-demands-apple-brea... Honestly the whole article except the “Wrapping up” section can be skipped and you’ll still end up with mostly the same technical takeaways.
  • svth 2y ago
    Britain is not in the EU.
• mindcrash 2y ago
  As a Github alternative you could consider self-hosting Forgejo (https://forgejo.org/ https://forgejo.org/) which is the underlying system powering codeberg (mentioned earlier) and some other public instances (https://codeberg.org/forgejo-contrib/delightful-forgejo#public-instances https://codeberg.org/forgejo-contrib/delightful-forgejo#publ...). As a plus they provide Forgejo Actions (https://forgejo.org/docs/latest/admin/actions/ https://forgejo.org/docs/latest/admin/actions/) which is pretty much similar to that other Actions, and which should make migrating that much easier. (you could replace the Alpha state Forgejo runner with the Gitea forked act runner -- as they are both essentially act runner forks); or you could run any of the CI/CD tools mentioned here: https://codeberg.org/forgejo-contrib/delightful-forgejo#ci-cd https://codeberg.org/forgejo-contrib/delightful-forgejo#ci-c...
• blacklight 2y ago
  I'd assume that self-hosting is not an option for this user? Otherwise the alternatives would be pretty much a nobrainer for me: Microsoft Office 365 -> Nextcloud Bitwarden -> self-hosted Bitwarden/Vaultwarden GitHub -> Sourcehut/Codeberg/Gitea/Forgejo Google search -> Searxng Reddit -> Lemmy Hackernews -> Lobsters Twitter/LinkedIn -> Mastodon / any Fediverse software
• edwinjm 2y ago
  Another interesting European hosting company is Hostinger https://www.hostinger.com/ https://www.hostinger.com/
• BrawnyBadger53 2y ago
  For search, Yep by ahrefs is hosted in Singapore, which isn't EU but if the goal is just to get out of the US then it could be a good alternative