20 ms·

GSA Eliminates 18F

529 points by patcon 2y ago

afavour 2y ago
They were doing the one of efficient, cost saving work DOGE claims to be doing and isn’t. Of course they had to go.
encomiast 2y ago
There's been a lot of stupid things over the last few weeks, but this one is close to the top. 18F did really important, good work. But they also stood for equality and diversity, they were proud of their inclusive culture, and outspoken about the importance of representing the entire country. The new administration put a 28-year old tech-bro in charge of the parent service named Thomas Shedd from Tesla who started demanding root access to systems, firing probationary employees, and generally making the place worse (to say nothing of the partner projects that were abandoned with no notice). All in a few weeks. Somebody needs to be taken out to Chesterton's fence and whipped a few times. They have no idea about the value of what they just threw away.
- beardyw 2y ago
  > they also stood for equality and diversity, they were proud of their inclusive culture, and outspoken about the importance of representing the entire country That's so 2024.
k310 2y ago
Recent posts https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=18f&sort=byDate&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu... Anil Dash - understanding DOGE as Procurement Capture https://www.anildash.com//2025/01/04/DOGE-procurement-capture/ https://www.anildash.com//2025/01/04/DOGE-procurement-captur...
lmeyerov 2y ago
https://bsky.app/profile/rmac.bsky.social/post/3ljcgsken3c2x https://bsky.app/profile/rmac.bsky.social/post/3ljcgsken3c2x : """18F, a digital services unit inside the General Services Administration, has been completely laid off, according to an email I’ve seen. The email says that 18F was deemed “non-critical” and the decision was made with the “explicit” direction of the administration and GSA leadership.""" 18f creates shared and open source government resources for technology efficiency, quality, and streamlining such as login.gov, cloud.gov, design packages, and free IRS tax filing Previously, Elon Musk stated it has been "deleted": https://www.nextgov.com/digital-government/2025/02/musk-takes-aim-gsa-tech-shop/402720/ https://www.nextgov.com/digital-government/2025/02/musk-take...
oldpersonintx 2y ago
[dead]
dralley 2y ago
Stupid, pointless destruction. No part of this is efficient. 18F and the USDS were effective tools for modernization.
- xyst 2y ago
  Got to make room for the trillion dollar tax cuts. Trickle down economics, right? Can’t wait for the pitchforks to rise up against the billionaires that created this mess.
  - yongjik 2y ago
    This isn't caused by some nebulous alliance of "billionaires," this is caused by one particular billionaire, Elon Musk, and his friends. These days I'm getting skeptical of these anti-billionaire quips. Sounds like a great segue to "all politicians are the same because they're in the billionaire's pocket," and now look at what that led us into.
    - hackyhacky 2y ago
      > This isn't caused by some nebulous alliance of "billionaires," this is caused by one particular billionaire, Elon Musk, and his friends. I am waiting for all the "good billionaires" to step up and do something about it.
      - retzkek 2y ago
        There’s at least one, although as a governor he may not count. > From the Department of Education, Medicaid, the CDC, and more - Trump and Elon Musk are gutting the agencies and programs that protect Americans every single day. https://bsky.app/profile/jbpritzker.bsky.social/post/3lisgh4bpzc2w https://bsky.app/profile/jbpritzker.bsky.social/post/3lisgh4...
      - EasyMark 2y ago
        they won't even say something, let alone do something. The only thing that could hurt Musk is the collapse of Tesla stock. Best thing you can do is not buy a Tesla and suggest to others not to buy on either. As the DOGE team like to say. starve the beast, where Leon is the beast.
pclmulqdq 2y ago
USDS has been co-opted and they don't want competition. I would expect nothing less. 18F and USDS used to have some very smart, dedicated people, and it's sad to see these agencies go this way.
Freak_NL 2y ago
Isn't this the agency that gradually allowed Americans to file their taxes without paying some commercial third party for the privilege? Like the rest of the world? We Europeans used to be able to gleefully report that we could file our taxes in minutes (which, in fact, it being 1 March, I did today), but you almost had it fixed. Look, I know we Dutch aren't perfect. After all, that twat Rutte (our teflon coated former prime minister, currently secretary general of NATO) just told Zelenskyy, essentially, to apologize to the big kid bullying him, so there's that. Sorry about that (didn't vote for him though). But still, could you guys, like, stop your government from being run by ironically fascist muppets?
- wruza 2y ago
  But what can they do? It’s easy in a bloody dictatorship to just raise and take it in your hands, simply unionizing against oppression forces and ignoring personal grave danger. But they are in the US, it’s completely safe there, so it doesn’t work like that. You speak, get angry and wait for some big corporation or bureaucracy to sort it out for you. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43148889 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43148889 It’s funny to watch (probably) the same people in a tutorial-level situation who thought that if I’m a man/human/etc I should stand by their principles and just go and overthrow the dictator of the place I happen to live in.
- preisschild 2y ago
  > We Europeans used to be able to gleefully report that we could file our taxes in minutes (which, in fact, it being 1 March, I did today), but you almost had it fixed. Its even done automatically here in Austria for you. You just have to use a simple to use webapp if you want a tax refund for stuff like donations or tax-writoffable expanses.
- janeerie 2y ago
  They were part of the effort, but not the main component. Direct File is still alive and functioning, for this tax season at least.
ein0p 2y ago
Seems like it was mostly already dead. Cursory search shows its headcount went down from 250 in 2018 to 91 in 2024 (before Trump; all remote).
- miltonlost 2y ago
  Remote work doesn't mean it's dead. 91 employees also doesn't mean it's dead. 18F still was a large active team. You are redefining dead to excuse the inexcusable.
OutOfHere 2y ago
Pro tip to 18F workers: get rehired as consultants for 2x the wages.
- jordanb 2y ago
  Unfortunately for 18F's workers, the projects they were working on improved the lives of ordinary Americans (like direct-file). There is no appetite in the current administration for such projects.
- rgovostes 2y ago
  The original formula for 18F was to hire elite tech workers coming from highly paid corporate jobs to do term-limited stints in public service at lower wages.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
fancyfredbot 2y ago
TIL that in America, if you work on a free tax filing system you are considered by some to be part of the "far left".
- moomin 2y ago
  Heaven forbid if the US catches up with the U.K. in the 1990s.
  - AnotherGoodName 2y ago
    Hell any country except the USA. I've lived in both the USA and Australia. In Australia it's been digital for a long time. As in you go to file and the equivalent of all your W2 information is pre-filed by the employer, retirement and investment systems. You're just running through a government provided site to check off any special exemptions and you're done. It's a huge efficiency win. Think of the hours you spent dealing with Turbotax and the like, re-importing information from other systems manually when your employer and bank already added filed that information under your name into the tax system on their side. I hear outright wrong arguments for why the USA has not moved to a modern filing system. The US tax system is NOT more complex than other countries. It's pretty middle of the road in complexity. Yes other countries are made up of states too. Yes there's a ton of exemptions in other countries. It's yet another example of people taking an absurd "government is always less efficient than private" viewpoint that isn't even founded in any academic sense. It's a line broadcast by very rich people that want to siphon off profit and it's hard to do that when it's tax payer funded.
    - zzgo 2y ago
      > very rich people that want to siphon off profit Tax preparation is a huge industry in the US, they're going to fight tooth and nail to make sure the government doesn't cut into their business.
    - Kamq 2y ago
      > I hear outright wrong arguments for why the USA has not moved to a modern filing system. The argument I always hear from the right about this is that they worry that making taxes more efficient will allow them (and government action in general) to increase. The right is explicitly committed to reducing that, so it's not in their interest. Same reason I've heard from people on the right about ending withholding. They think that if people had to cut an actual check to the government every year (or quarter) that people would realize how much it's costing them and be more amenable to reducing it.
ixtli 2y ago
The dismantling of the American government is going as planned I see?
trts 2y ago
a couple pages that describe the agency and their projects, for those who were not familiar. the agency was created in 2014. https://18f.gsa.gov/our-work/ https://18f.gsa.gov/our-work/ https://www.govtech.com/civic/what-is-18f.html https://www.govtech.com/civic/what-is-18f.html Key Projects: Beta.FEC.gov: Revamped the Federal Election Commission's website for easier record access. MyUSCIS: Simplified the immigration process for U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS). USCIS ICAM Development: Developed a login and identity verification system for USCIS users. eRegulations Platform: Made regulations more accessible and understandable. College Scorecard: Provided clear data on college costs, graduation rates, debt, and post-college earnings. Cloud.gov: Offers a platform for government teams to develop and manage web applications efficiently. U.S. Web Design Standards: Created open-source UI components for consistent federal website experiences16.
- adamisom 2y ago
  yeah this agency is kinda what I imagined DOGE was created to be. alas now I am just confused
  - jasonpbecker 2y ago
    The people in charge are intentionally ignorant of things that _already exist in government_, like the OIG, 18F/USDS, etc. And since their actual goal is to slash and burn the government so that it's literally unable to function, thus justifying its total collapse since it no longer has capacity, they have to take out the people who actually look for corruption, look into social security fraud, improve government technology systems, etc who would see through and call this shit out. It's never been about making government more effect or efficient-- it's the managerial equivalent of the "starve the beast" mentality.
  - micromacrofoot 2y ago
    it's because DOGE is full of sycophants and 18F wasn't, that's the whole thing
    - fellowniusmonk 2y ago
FollowingTheDao 2y ago
Just another obvious sign of the drive to privatizing everything. I find it pretty amazing that conservatives would be against Direct File since the government is forcing people to pay taxes shouldn't the way to pay those taxes not be another tax?
- acdha 2y ago
  The current Republican budget proposal incurs roughly five trillion dollars in additional debt and service cuts, all to allow tax cuts which mostly go to the top 10%: https://budgetmodel.wharton.upenn.edu/issues/2025/2/27/fy2025-house-budget-reconciliation-and-trump-tax-proposals-effects https://budgetmodel.wharton.upenn.edu/issues/2025/2/27/fy202... If you went to the average person and asked whether they’d like to have services like Medicaid and SNAP cut so their senior management can pay less in taxes, they’d say no. If you demonize the concept of tax collection, however, then they might go for it because they’re reacting out of fear rather than thinking analytically.
- gs17 2y ago
  They're okay with it when it's a "tax" paid to corporations.
Reason077 2y ago
Amazing how the idea of being able to file tax returns online, without paying for a commercial service to do it, is considered far-left extremism in the US. You’d think that simplifying tax returns and reducing costs in the taxation system would be something the right could get behind?
- kadoban 2y ago
  The right in America does not believe in a federal government. Anything that helps a federal government exist is to be destroyed.
  - vkou 2y ago
    It absolutely believes in a federal government. It just does not believe in a federal government that it is not in control of.
    - dingnuts 2y ago
      who, exactly, is in control of independent agencies if Congress never corrects their power and the Executive isn't in charge? For example: the perennial fight over "net neutrality" was because Congress absconded their duty to write regulation and handed it off to the Executive to figure out in a vague way that allowed for flip flopping policies with the force of law every time the administration changed. You know what would stop the Executive power grab currently happening? If Congress would do their damn jobs. The Republicans in Congress are more to blame for this mess than the White House. This is supposed to be their power that they are just sitting and watching get taken away. But the Democrats aren't guiltless either. People who care about this sort of thing have been complaining for decades, right through Democrat majorities and administrations. They had plenty of chances. The whole beltway fucking sucks and we are so cooked.
      - hackyhacky 2y ago
        > The Republicans in Congress are more to blame for this mess than the White House. The fact that Congress is ineffective in no way absolves the executive branch of irresponsible or illegal behavior. The president took an oath.
nsxwolf 2y ago
What on earth is the GSA
- philipwhiuk 2y ago
  If OPM is the HR department, GSA is the office manager.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
mixmastamyk 2y ago
Anyone interested in helping organize a boycott of filing federal taxes until a direct-file system, that serves everyone, is instituted? I’d like to join, but don’t have the influence to start one on my own.
- efnx 2y ago
  I think a tax strike could be incredibly effective, but also have really bad failure scenarios.
  - mixmastamyk 2y ago
    Yes and no. Needs to be big to be effective, I agree. But, I saw on a documentary of FIFA corruption that one guy making millions in (I think NY) didn’t file taxes for over ten years, maybe twenty. I didn’t know it was possible until then. Someone actually downvoted my comment above, can you believe? :-D
- euroderf 2y ago
  You probably just broke a RICO statute or something...
- vvpan 2y ago
  I think it is actually a good idea, in theory, but the penalties for failure to file are hefty.
breadwinner 2y ago
Here's the big picture: Only around 3% of total spending is federal payroll. Dismantling of essential services like free tax filing saves very little money. Total annual spending is around $6.75 trillion, of which only around $210 Billion is spent on federal payroll (not including military and postal workers). All these cuts are intended to pay for tax cuts for Elon Musk and his fellow billionaires.
- zerocrates 2y ago
  18F went around improving tech for other agencies and the government as a whole; shutting them down almost certainly costs money. Just as cutting from the IRS tends to cost money.
- alabastervlog 2y ago
  They didn’t bother to cut spending to pay for the last two fiscally-disastrous rounds of big Republican tax cuts. Why do it this time? No, they’re just trying to wreck the government. They were pretty open about it during the election.
araes 2y ago
Bad result for America, as at least the two that I've been familiar with have both been dramatically better website implementations than much of the federal government. GSA, Digital Analytics Program: https://analytics.usa.gov/ https://analytics.usa.gov/ Huge amounts of data about how government websites are used including: locations (cities, countries), languages, referral sources, media sources, devices, browsers, OS, website destination, and top file accesses. Treasury, Government Spending Explorer: https://www.usaspending.gov/explorer/budget_function https://www.usaspending.gov/explorer/budget_function Really thorough breakdown of government spending from 2017 onward, with per month, per quarter, and year spending totals by budget function and agency. Divable categories so you can look at the $1,400,000,000,000 in National Defense spending, and actually find out a little about where it all goes to each year. Edit: Here's their Github and 1200 repositories: https://github.com/orgs/18F/repositories https://github.com/orgs/18F/repositories If I had enough money to hire them, I'd snap their employees up quickly.
- onlyrealcuzzo 2y ago
  The goal is to make government as dysfunctional as possible (beside the part that enforces corruption [for your side]), so people want it to get smaller and smaller (except for the corrupt parts that benefit exclusively them), so that it costs less, so that they pay less taxes, so that they have even more money (that they don't need). They definitely do not care if this "makes things worse". Often, it's intended.
  - xyst 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - onlyrealcuzzo 2y ago
      No, absolutely wrong. Neoliberalism is about a big, functional government that is utopian and takes care of everything for you. "You own nothing, and you'll be happy." You can argue in practice it's terrible (subjective, no one really cares about your opinion). But it's hard to argue its GOAL is to be small.
aprilthird2021 2y ago
If what I'm reading is correct and this was a cost-recoverable function, then it's possible this work will be contracted out to private companies in the future. Already Trump has said the government will sell federal buildings and rent them instead. If this continues, it will be very similar to how the kleptocrats took over Russia when the Soviet Union fell...
nashashmi 2y ago
I always thought that 18F would be the inspiration behind DOGE. Instead it seems to have become the opposite
- acdha 2y ago
  DOGE excuses the laws they’re breaking and the cost increases they’re incurring by claiming that there’s a crisis they have to respond to and that they’re so smart nobody else can do it. The last thing they need are smarter, more experienced people around who can show that none of those assertions are true and all of the costs being racked up are pure waste.
- ronbenton 2y ago
  The problem here is assuming DOGE’s stated goal is their real goal.
- throwawaygovie 2y ago
  18F, when it started, was viewed with suspicion by other federal agencies—here were these Silicon Valley know-it-alls, coming in to tell us how to do our jobs. So, basically DOGE. Except: 18F spent 10 years building trust in the government. As consultants, they met their clients where they were, and acted with empathy and understanding. This is pretty much the opposite of DOGE coming into an agency and seizing control. 18F’s model was geared toward continual improvement over time (“Move slowly and fix things”). It was, I think, a model with a more long term mindset than what is going on with DOGE.
- roughly 2y ago
  May I offer a proposal here? A great many people would've told you beforehand what DOGE was going to be and do (although I think most of us are a bit shocked about the speed and violence of the thing). I expect you heard some of it ahead of time, too. It may be worth updating your priors on the intents, beliefs, and capabilities of the people involved in this to match this new experience, and to apply those new priors as you hear new proposals and ideas from those same groups in the future.
  - 2y ago
xyst 2y ago
The result of trickle down economics and neoliberalism to its core. Elimination of these “non-critical” agencies are nothing but a drop in the bucket compared to military spending and amounts tax cuts for billionaire parasites.
- heisenbit 2y ago
  Having conflict free in-house counsel is critical for major buy decisions. The last thing the buyer wants is the seller to write the spec and contract unsupervised. Eliminating technical and legal counsel is an enabling move for corruption.
rgovostes 2y ago
A good article from (2015) about the formation of 18F is “Inside Obama’s Stealth Startup”, https://www.fastcompany.com/3046756/obama-and-his-geeks https://www.fastcompany.com/3046756/obama-and-his-geeks. I can’t access an archived version at the moment but if someone finds a link, it is an insightful read.
- vetrom 2y ago
  (edit: first archive link was not complete) https://archive.is/vEExp https://archive.is/vEExp
heisenbit 2y ago
It is even nicer to get paid for consulting work (or does anyone believe Musk's drones are doing it for free) when it allows you to eliminate competition from lower paid staff. Tax dollars working on establishing new high watermarks for conflicts of interest.
- aprilthird2021 2y ago
  There was a guy who posted here in HN about to go work for Doge but he decided to learn physics in Hawaii instead. He sold a company and didn't need to work anymore. I imagine those are the types attracted to this work to potentially do it for free or cheap
skepticATX 2y ago
Sad that 18F is gone and that USDS is effectively gone. I’d long had in the back of my mind that I’d take take a short sabbatical at some point and work for one of these organizations - looks like that’s not happening.
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  Worry not, if we get to vote again, I expect a hard swing back to the other side after these events. Lots of rebuilding to do from the ashes. Steady as she goes as we sail through the storm.
  - labster 2y ago
    We’re not going to get to vote again. There is no future, America’s dreaming.
    - jwkpiano1 2y ago
      We sure as shit are or there will be civil conflict. Period.
      - mrtesthah 2y ago
        They’ll try to do elections Putin-style where the votes magically all end up being in favor of the incumbent and the opposition party becomes increasingly criminalized.
        joshuahedlund 2y ago
        Elections are run by states, not the federal government. “They” will not be able to control them in this way.
        mrtesthah 2y ago
        The federal government can do a lot to support state actions to disenfranchise people, especially when the courts go along with it. And then there’s the threat of state legislatures to override the popular vote in national elections on the basis of “fraud”.
omnivore 2y ago
This thing was always underutilized even by the last 2 administrations. For all of the purported DOGE savings, these folks actually legitimately saved money from agencies, which is why big contractor shops were so opposed. They didn't take Congressional appropriations and charged agencies for work, but couldn't just go to agencies and pitch business, they had to be reached out to. Can't imagine how much better the thing had been if it'd been allowed to fully blossom, but given all the stuff they deal with it, it wasn't perfect but it was a really good experiment.
- cushychicken 2y ago
  Why couldn’t they go out and pitch their services to agencies?
gigatexal 2y ago
[flagged]
- jcgrillo 2y ago
  > I wonder if Trump is a KGB asset. It's easy to read into his parroting of putin's talking points as deliberate, but I think it might just be "wannabe mobster" talk. If anything it's probably a little more nuanced than uncle vlad pulling the puppet strings, but they sure do seem awful friendly.. I think it's risky to ascribe any real agency or planning to trump. He's a very simple creature, and he wears his cravings and impulses on his sleeve. I'm much more worried about the thinking people operating in his chaotic wake.
  - gigatexal 2y ago
    There’s more and more speculation among the political punditry that Trump and company might be seeing Vlad as an ally to counter China at the expense of Europe. But given what little we know about Putin and his cunning as an ex KGB officer and likely one of the richest men on the planet — I’m Willing to go into conspiracy land and speculate that he has the ability to puppet master folks and I wouldn’t be surprised that he got his hooks into Trump.
  - retzkek 2y ago
    There are many conspiracy theories related to his trip to Moscow in 1987, which I don’t ascribe much to, but the connections are there, if only for some “assistance” to be rendered quid pro quo. I’m a firm believer in Hanlon’s Razor, and like you ascribe most of his and his followers’ actions to stupidity, but there’s clearly also some maliciousness.
- mindslight 2y ago
  Decades of so-called conservatives' eagerness to rage against whatever other groups of Americans their mainstream media directs them at is the cancer. Krasnov and Muskow are just the metastasization that will finish killing our society. I don't know where their actual motives fall on the spectrum from being useful idiots stage-managed by social media bots and foreign agent handlers, to deliberately working for personal rewards in a new Chinese world order. But does it really matter?
gigatexal 2y ago
We need to help our 18F friends find work and get back on their feet. Open up your teams, your HR hiring processes, and let’s help these folks.
- gigatexal 2y ago
  Who would downvote this?
  - hypothesis 2y ago
    Same brigade who flags all those topics above hostile government takeover?
  - recursive 2y ago
    Someone who thinks it's off topic or doesn't contribute I guess.
    - gigatexal 2y ago
      Which is odd — all the YC startups likely have another talented pool of eager engineers to likely hire. Or they probably think they’ll just be replacing engineers with angentic ones (sic).
      - zemvpferreira 2y ago
        I didn't downvote you but hovered over the button. Your comment came across as empty virtue signalling. I'm not friends with anyone in 18F and while I'd be keen to read a blog post of your describing how you staffed two entire departments from their layoffs, I don't make hiring processes easier for people because they were fired for political purposes. Everyone gets treated equally well regardless where they come from. I also don't take kindly to people telling me what to do with my money. No offence intended, no intention of arguing, and you seem like a lovely person, but you did ask and I'm feeling grumpy.
        2y ago
cushychicken 2y ago
Is there any meaningful reason that states couldn’t start their own equivalent 18F at the state level? I live in Massachusetts and I know a bunch of socially conscious techies who’d love to help out in this manner. I have no idea if there is need for 18F at the state level, but I could see something like this working OK in MA, CA, and maybe NY.
- tmm 2y ago
  Many states do have something like 18F. Massachusetts has Mass Digital[1], Washington has WaTech[2], Maryland has announced[3] the formation of one. [1] https://www.mass.gov/orgs/massachusetts-digital-service https://www.mass.gov/orgs/massachusetts-digital-service [2] https://watech.wa.gov/services https://watech.wa.gov/services [3] https://governor.maryland.gov/news/press/pages/governor-moore-announces-action-to-transform-maryland-executive-branch-digital-services.aspx https://governor.maryland.gov/news/press/pages/governor-moor...
  - janeerie 2y ago
    Colorado also has one: https://oit.colorado.gov/colorado-digital-service https://oit.colorado.gov/colorado-digital-service
  - vitorsr 2y ago
    California Department of Technology: https://cdt.ca.gov/ https://cdt.ca.gov/ Texas Department of Information Resources: https://dir.texas.gov/ https://dir.texas.gov/ New York State Office of Information Technology Services: https://its.ny.gov/ https://its.ny.gov/
- rcpt 2y ago
  > Massachusetts
EfficientDude 2y ago
Not a problem - they can learn to mine coal.
fitsumbelay 2y ago
This feels like another designed distraction -- designed to impact real human lives, as humans are only cannon fodder to Trump and co -- that'll either be clawed back or wallow in legal limbo throughout Trump's presidency. I'd like to think there's an enormous backlash coming in the form of mid terms and maybe other things but it's hard to set realistic expectations these days when it comes to American politics The author's adoption of Elon Musks's irritating "deleted" lingo is quite a vibe though. Not.
vvpan 2y ago
New York Times wrote [1] a pretty extensive expose on how the government takeover has happened. Basically Musk started infiltrating the government with his agents a couple of years ago so by the time inauguration happened he had access to all the passwords. I am not sure which laws were broken but if they were I hope the administration that comes in 2029 will not overlook these people's contribution. [1] https://archive.ph/oJRrI https://archive.ph/oJRrI
- physhster 2y ago
  It's somewhat interesting that the NYT acts all outraged while the refused to report on the orange guy's numerous conflicts of interest/crimes/dubious connections, and all out penchant for fascism before the election...
  - faitswulff 2y ago
    Can’t shill outrage without something to be outraged about
    - alabastervlog 2y ago
      I do wonder just how large a revenue boost a lot of news outlets saw during the first Trump administration, and how much that played into how weirdly favorably they treated him in this campaign.
  - khazhoux 2y ago
    How do you figure? I saw plenty of coverage. What did they miss?
    - bbor 2y ago
      Yeah I’m plenty critical of the NYT myself (esp. in their last month of coverage), but they do ostensibly cover any big news story, including the ones about Trump. Re:fascism, I specifically remember them covering the “I need generals like Hitler had” comment, to pick a memorable example. While we’re at it, they even endorsed Harris as an institution, writing; “This unequivocal, dispiriting truth — Donald Trump is not fit to be president — should be enough for any voter who cares about the health of our country and the stability of our democracy to deny him re-election,”
jcgrillo 2y ago
IIRC these organizations were originally formed in reaction to how badly contractors screwed up the original healthcare.gov rollout? So if the idea is to replace them with a private sector contract who gets it? Palantir?
- ronbenton 2y ago
  Probably one of Elon’s companies
stefankuehnel 2y ago
Is it possible that the 18F website is no longer available? It doesn't seem to work anymore: https://18f.gsa.gov https://18f.gsa.gov
- ronbenton 2y ago
  Yes they tore it down.
- throwawaygovie 2y ago
  It was taken down. In general, 18F’s open source work was in the public domain, though, and I know there have been efforts to archive it recently. Additionally, it looks like some of 18F’s public guides are still available (e.g. the “Derisking” guide, which is all about how to structure your IT projects to be less likely to fail spectacularly: https://guides.18f.gov/derisking/ https://guides.18f.gov/derisking/)
dylanz 2y ago
This sucks for accessibility.
ein0p 2y ago
Lots of people are hyperventilating about DirectFile, but: 1. IRS itself created DirectFile. 18F merely provided some unquantifiable "support" 2. DirectFile is not shut down.
- nxobject 2y ago
  Don’t worry - I’m sure that if Scott Bessent’s ever worried about his job he won’t hesitate to get rid of Direct File.
- boroboro4 2y ago
  Lets bet DirectFile is going to be shutdown in the next one year?
- janeerie 2y ago
  I don't know why you're getting downvoted, but you are correct. It's essential that as many people as possible know about and use Direct File this year, to provide evidence that it ought to be continued.
  - ein0p 2y ago
    +1. I agree. The government should not shut down a way to collect revenues.
    - nxobject 2y ago
      What are you talking about? Direct File completes tax return forms for types of income that already have taxes withheld.
cwdegidio 2y ago
I've worked closely with 18F staff. They are/were some of the most dedicated folks I've ever had the pleasure to work beside. Based on my interactions, they were very dedicated to web standards that made the web open and easy for all people to use. Some of the best a11y researchers & advisors who had real empathy and compassion. Anyone who picks these folks up for their org is going to be the real winner here.
dang 2y ago
Related ongoing threads: A Letter to the American People - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43224350 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43224350 - March 2025 (298 comments) 18F GitHub Repositories - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43222842 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43222842
hayst4ck 2y ago
Everyone should watch the director of the Office of Management and Budget, Russell Vought, speak on government workers: We want the bureaucrats to be traumatically affected. When they wake up in the morning, we want them to not want to go to work because they are increasingly viewed as the villains. We want their funding to be shut down so that the EPA can’t do all of the rules against our energy industry because they have no bandwidth financially to do so. We want to put them in trauma. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBH9TmeJN_M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBH9TmeJN_M 18F are the bureaucrats they want to traumatize.
- Modified3019 2y ago
  “The cruelty is the point”
  - khazhoux 2y ago
    Incorrect. Their goal is to dissolve these agencies, to reduce regulation that burden certain industries.
    - genter 2y ago
      How is that incorrect? They're deliberately being cruel to government employees so they quit and the agencies are de facto dissolved.
      - khazhoux 2y ago
        [flagged]
        fragmede 2y ago
        Why would you assume either? Do you have access to brain scanning technology that would let you know what goes on in the minds of these men? If they think that the federal government is all waste, why wouldn't being cruel to them be more important than this idea about efficiency that idiots are absolutely eating up.
tac19 2y ago
[flagged]
- djur 2y ago
  You've been "told" that? Who's been telling you that? I've seen some people on the Internet say it, sure. Why do they matter to you?
  - tac19 2y ago
    If you think the people who support Trump haven't heard this message, then I don't know what to tell you. They have also failed to hear what sounds to them like love-for-country, from the opposite side. We can argue til the cows come home how true it is or not, but it has played a role in what we're seeing unfold.
    - djur 2y ago
      Many people who support Trump also think that people like me and my friends are child-abusing Satanists, that there are secret underground military bases containing millions of abducted children, that there's hidden "med-bed" technology that cures all disease that They have suppressed, that JFK Jr. is still alive, etc. The people who have promoted these ideas have been boosted by the President and his allies, invited to the White House, given positions of power in his administration, etc. I don't know why the genuinely irrational, harmful things these people believe somehow means that I shouldn't be angry about immensely worthwhile and beneficial programs being shut down on the whim of an unelected billionaire.
- antonvs 2y ago
  > We've been told for a long time that the USA is a racist, sexist, illegitimate nation, founded on slavery and stolen land. Would it have helped to instead be told that you have poor comprehension skills and limited understanding of nuance? Because that’s clearly the case if the above quote describes a conclusion that you reached.
  - 2y ago
arthurgibson 2y ago
18f.gsa.gov - https://web.archive.org/web/20250301115820/https://18f.gsa.gov/ https://web.archive.org/web/20250301115820/https://18f.gsa.g...
19g-1 2y ago
[dead]
ramoz 2y ago
Good riddance. There are better factions within the government doing truly remarkable things. Largely in DoD and integrated well with industry service providers; all of whom have ample gov't experience. If you can flip bureaucracy in DoD, you can flip it in the rest of gov. Beyond that, every agency should how it's own _18F_
foobar876345 2y ago
This is a good program that should be retained. But theres a nagging thing bothering me about the whole dynamic going on with DOGE critics. You get mad at the waste this represents, the unfairness. Ask your average middle class worker how they feel about the taxes taken out of their paycheck being wasted in the massive amount of waste fraud and abuse we all know happens in government. That is massively unfair. It one thing to lose a job because of a policy change. It’s quite another to have every paycheck docked at threat of state violence to fund the kind of stuff we are hearing about. Budget cuts and shutdowns are normal in business and all too rare in government. The argument that this or that program is good isn’t enough. But we see all these concerns and complaints based on basically that. This ignores the scale and gravity and historical incalcalitrant nature of the problem we actually have to deal with now. It’s not an option anymore. So can we please stop the wailing and gnashing of teeth and absolutely give feedback on what programs are good and why they deserve to be reinstated. I have a feeling they want to wait a year or two to find out what actually mattered.
- rqtwteye 2y ago
  I think the main criticism of DOGE is that there seems no deliberation at all. They cut whatever Musk and friends don't personally like or what they don't understand after 10 minutes looking at it. Such an effort should be a long careful process, not a hit and run job.
- acdha 2y ago
  The average worker doesn’t appreciate all of the different things the government does, and we’ve had decades of polls showing that people wildly misunderstand where money is spent. For example, people think we spend a lot more on foreign aid than we actually do – and also think that we should spend more than we do: https://www.usglc.org/blog/americans-vastly-overestimate-u-s-foreign-assistance/ https://www.usglc.org/blog/americans-vastly-overestimate-u-s... I mention this because there’s another side of this: taxes have been cut massively over the last half century, but a lot of people have not internalized what that means and simply assume that most of the money is going to something they don’t like. Cutting expenditures in any meaningful way means cutting the military, and the big social programs like Medicaid, SNAP, etc. People talk like we’re spending trillions on foreign and buying Reagan’s welfare queens new Cybertrucks but it’s really coming down to whether we want to spend less on the military, deal with our world-leading medical costs, or have rich people pay taxes at the same rates they paid around the turn of the century. The DOGE cuts work out to a few dollars per person total, and that’s before you factor in the significant new costs those cuts have incurred. It’s like looking at your personal budget and saying that the place to cut is your monthly movie date while ignoring rent, food, and car payments.
jordanpg 2y ago
All of this lament is great, but if you don’t like this, please pick up the phone and call your reps. Every day. Please. It’s an emergency. No one is coming to save us.
everybodyknows 2y ago
The veterans now have their own website: https://18f.org/ https://18f.org/
giardini 2y ago
This topic should be shut down. Many people are presenting outlandish ideas here. Especially common is the idea that organizations act (and even think) the same as individuals.
- EasyMark 2y ago
  It's not outlandish because the tail wagging the dog in this case is only a few billionaires, Dump and Husk and a couple of others. So I think we should allow it.
esbranson 2y ago
Login.gov for example. No matter how much 18F built, the other agencies like the IRS were never going to implement them. You know, because of Trump. Tens of thousands of millions (ie billions) meant nothing. My biggest fear is that they stop firing people, leaving us with the worst of the worst.

529 points by patcon 2y ago

They were doing the one of efficient, cost saving work DOGE claims to be doing and isn’t. Of course they had to go.

There's been a lot of stupid things over the last few weeks, but this one is close to the top. 18F did really important, good work. But they also stood for equality and diversity, they were proud of their inclusive culture, and outspoken about the importance of representing the entire country. The new administration put a 28-year old tech-bro in charge of the parent service named Thomas Shedd from Tesla who started demanding root access to systems, firing probationary employees, and generally making the place worse (to say nothing of the partner projects that were abandoned with no notice). All in a few weeks. Somebody needs to be taken out to Chesterton's fence and whipped a few times. They have no idea about the value of what they just threw away.

beardyw 2y ago
> they also stood for equality and diversity, they were proud of their inclusive culture, and outspoken about the importance of representing the entire country That's so 2024.

k310 2y ago

Recent posts https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=18f&sort=byDate&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu... Anil Dash - understanding DOGE as Procurement Capture https://www.anildash.com//2025/01/04/DOGE-procurement-capture/ https://www.anildash.com//2025/01/04/DOGE-procurement-captur...

lmeyerov 2y ago

https://bsky.app/profile/rmac.bsky.social/post/3ljcgsken3c2x https://bsky.app/profile/rmac.bsky.social/post/3ljcgsken3c2x : """18F, a digital services unit inside the General Services Administration, has been completely laid off, according to an email I’ve seen. The email says that 18F was deemed “non-critical” and the decision was made with the “explicit” direction of the administration and GSA leadership.""" 18f creates shared and open source government resources for technology efficiency, quality, and streamlining such as login.gov, cloud.gov, design packages, and free IRS tax filing Previously, Elon Musk stated it has been "deleted": https://www.nextgov.com/digital-government/2025/02/musk-takes-aim-gsa-tech-shop/402720/ https://www.nextgov.com/digital-government/2025/02/musk-take...

oldpersonintx 2y ago

[dead]

dralley 2y ago

Stupid, pointless destruction. No part of this is efficient. 18F and the USDS were effective tools for modernization.

xyst 2y ago
Got to make room for the trillion dollar tax cuts. Trickle down economics, right? Can’t wait for the pitchforks to rise up against the billionaires that created this mess.
- yongjik 2y ago
  This isn't caused by some nebulous alliance of "billionaires," this is caused by one particular billionaire, Elon Musk, and his friends. These days I'm getting skeptical of these anti-billionaire quips. Sounds like a great segue to "all politicians are the same because they're in the billionaire's pocket," and now look at what that led us into.
  - hackyhacky 2y ago
    > This isn't caused by some nebulous alliance of "billionaires," this is caused by one particular billionaire, Elon Musk, and his friends. I am waiting for all the "good billionaires" to step up and do something about it.
    - retzkek 2y ago
      There’s at least one, although as a governor he may not count. > From the Department of Education, Medicaid, the CDC, and more - Trump and Elon Musk are gutting the agencies and programs that protect Americans every single day. https://bsky.app/profile/jbpritzker.bsky.social/post/3lisgh4bpzc2w https://bsky.app/profile/jbpritzker.bsky.social/post/3lisgh4...
    - EasyMark 2y ago
      they won't even say something, let alone do something. The only thing that could hurt Musk is the collapse of Tesla stock. Best thing you can do is not buy a Tesla and suggest to others not to buy on either. As the DOGE team like to say. starve the beast, where Leon is the beast.

pclmulqdq 2y ago

USDS has been co-opted and they don't want competition. I would expect nothing less. 18F and USDS used to have some very smart, dedicated people, and it's sad to see these agencies go this way.

Freak_NL 2y ago

Isn't this the agency that gradually allowed Americans to file their taxes without paying some commercial third party for the privilege? Like the rest of the world? We Europeans used to be able to gleefully report that we could file our taxes in minutes (which, in fact, it being 1 March, I did today), but you almost had it fixed. Look, I know we Dutch aren't perfect. After all, that twat Rutte (our teflon coated former prime minister, currently secretary general of NATO) just told Zelenskyy, essentially, to apologize to the big kid bullying him, so there's that. Sorry about that (didn't vote for him though). But still, could you guys, like, stop your government from being run by ironically fascist muppets?

wruza 2y ago
But what can they do? It’s easy in a bloody dictatorship to just raise and take it in your hands, simply unionizing against oppression forces and ignoring personal grave danger. But they are in the US, it’s completely safe there, so it doesn’t work like that. You speak, get angry and wait for some big corporation or bureaucracy to sort it out for you. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43148889 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43148889 It’s funny to watch (probably) the same people in a tutorial-level situation who thought that if I’m a man/human/etc I should stand by their principles and just go and overthrow the dictator of the place I happen to live in.
preisschild 2y ago
> We Europeans used to be able to gleefully report that we could file our taxes in minutes (which, in fact, it being 1 March, I did today), but you almost had it fixed. Its even done automatically here in Austria for you. You just have to use a simple to use webapp if you want a tax refund for stuff like donations or tax-writoffable expanses.
janeerie 2y ago
They were part of the effort, but not the main component. Direct File is still alive and functioning, for this tax season at least.

ein0p 2y ago

Seems like it was mostly already dead. Cursory search shows its headcount went down from 250 in 2018 to 91 in 2024 (before Trump; all remote).

miltonlost 2y ago
Remote work doesn't mean it's dead. 91 employees also doesn't mean it's dead. 18F still was a large active team. You are redefining dead to excuse the inexcusable.

OutOfHere 2y ago

Pro tip to 18F workers: get rehired as consultants for 2x the wages.

jordanb 2y ago
Unfortunately for 18F's workers, the projects they were working on improved the lives of ordinary Americans (like direct-file). There is no appetite in the current administration for such projects.
rgovostes 2y ago
The original formula for 18F was to hire elite tech workers coming from highly paid corporate jobs to do term-limited stints in public service at lower wages.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]

fancyfredbot 2y ago

TIL that in America, if you work on a free tax filing system you are considered by some to be part of the "far left".

moomin 2y ago
Heaven forbid if the US catches up with the U.K. in the 1990s.
- AnotherGoodName 2y ago
  Hell any country except the USA. I've lived in both the USA and Australia. In Australia it's been digital for a long time. As in you go to file and the equivalent of all your W2 information is pre-filed by the employer, retirement and investment systems. You're just running through a government provided site to check off any special exemptions and you're done. It's a huge efficiency win. Think of the hours you spent dealing with Turbotax and the like, re-importing information from other systems manually when your employer and bank already added filed that information under your name into the tax system on their side. I hear outright wrong arguments for why the USA has not moved to a modern filing system. The US tax system is NOT more complex than other countries. It's pretty middle of the road in complexity. Yes other countries are made up of states too. Yes there's a ton of exemptions in other countries. It's yet another example of people taking an absurd "government is always less efficient than private" viewpoint that isn't even founded in any academic sense. It's a line broadcast by very rich people that want to siphon off profit and it's hard to do that when it's tax payer funded.
  - zzgo 2y ago
    > very rich people that want to siphon off profit Tax preparation is a huge industry in the US, they're going to fight tooth and nail to make sure the government doesn't cut into their business.
  - Kamq 2y ago
    > I hear outright wrong arguments for why the USA has not moved to a modern filing system. The argument I always hear from the right about this is that they worry that making taxes more efficient will allow them (and government action in general) to increase. The right is explicitly committed to reducing that, so it's not in their interest. Same reason I've heard from people on the right about ending withholding. They think that if people had to cut an actual check to the government every year (or quarter) that people would realize how much it's costing them and be more amenable to reducing it.

ixtli 2y ago

The dismantling of the American government is going as planned I see?

trts 2y ago

a couple pages that describe the agency and their projects, for those who were not familiar. the agency was created in 2014. https://18f.gsa.gov/our-work/ https://18f.gsa.gov/our-work/ https://www.govtech.com/civic/what-is-18f.html https://www.govtech.com/civic/what-is-18f.html Key Projects: Beta.FEC.gov: Revamped the Federal Election Commission's website for easier record access. MyUSCIS: Simplified the immigration process for U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS). USCIS ICAM Development: Developed a login and identity verification system for USCIS users. eRegulations Platform: Made regulations more accessible and understandable. College Scorecard: Provided clear data on college costs, graduation rates, debt, and post-college earnings. Cloud.gov: Offers a platform for government teams to develop and manage web applications efficiently. U.S. Web Design Standards: Created open-source UI components for consistent federal website experiences16.

adamisom 2y ago
yeah this agency is kinda what I imagined DOGE was created to be. alas now I am just confused
- jasonpbecker 2y ago
  The people in charge are intentionally ignorant of things that _already exist in government_, like the OIG, 18F/USDS, etc. And since their actual goal is to slash and burn the government so that it's literally unable to function, thus justifying its total collapse since it no longer has capacity, they have to take out the people who actually look for corruption, look into social security fraud, improve government technology systems, etc who would see through and call this shit out. It's never been about making government more effect or efficient-- it's the managerial equivalent of the "starve the beast" mentality.
- micromacrofoot 2y ago
  it's because DOGE is full of sycophants and 18F wasn't, that's the whole thing
  - fellowniusmonk 2y ago

FollowingTheDao 2y ago

Just another obvious sign of the drive to privatizing everything. I find it pretty amazing that conservatives would be against Direct File since the government is forcing people to pay taxes shouldn't the way to pay those taxes not be another tax?

acdha 2y ago
The current Republican budget proposal incurs roughly five trillion dollars in additional debt and service cuts, all to allow tax cuts which mostly go to the top 10%: https://budgetmodel.wharton.upenn.edu/issues/2025/2/27/fy2025-house-budget-reconciliation-and-trump-tax-proposals-effects https://budgetmodel.wharton.upenn.edu/issues/2025/2/27/fy202... If you went to the average person and asked whether they’d like to have services like Medicaid and SNAP cut so their senior management can pay less in taxes, they’d say no. If you demonize the concept of tax collection, however, then they might go for it because they’re reacting out of fear rather than thinking analytically.
gs17 2y ago
They're okay with it when it's a "tax" paid to corporations.

Reason077 2y ago

Amazing how the idea of being able to file tax returns online, without paying for a commercial service to do it, is considered far-left extremism in the US. You’d think that simplifying tax returns and reducing costs in the taxation system would be something the right could get behind?

kadoban 2y ago
The right in America does not believe in a federal government. Anything that helps a federal government exist is to be destroyed.
- vkou 2y ago
  It absolutely believes in a federal government. It just does not believe in a federal government that it is not in control of.
  - dingnuts 2y ago
    who, exactly, is in control of independent agencies if Congress never corrects their power and the Executive isn't in charge? For example: the perennial fight over "net neutrality" was because Congress absconded their duty to write regulation and handed it off to the Executive to figure out in a vague way that allowed for flip flopping policies with the force of law every time the administration changed. You know what would stop the Executive power grab currently happening? If Congress would do their damn jobs. The Republicans in Congress are more to blame for this mess than the White House. This is supposed to be their power that they are just sitting and watching get taken away. But the Democrats aren't guiltless either. People who care about this sort of thing have been complaining for decades, right through Democrat majorities and administrations. They had plenty of chances. The whole beltway fucking sucks and we are so cooked.
    - hackyhacky 2y ago
      > The Republicans in Congress are more to blame for this mess than the White House. The fact that Congress is ineffective in no way absolves the executive branch of irresponsible or illegal behavior. The president took an oath.

nsxwolf 2y ago

What on earth is the GSA

philipwhiuk 2y ago
If OPM is the HR department, GSA is the office manager.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

mixmastamyk 2y ago

Anyone interested in helping organize a boycott of filing federal taxes until a direct-file system, that serves everyone, is instituted? I’d like to join, but don’t have the influence to start one on my own.

efnx 2y ago
I think a tax strike could be incredibly effective, but also have really bad failure scenarios.
- mixmastamyk 2y ago
  Yes and no. Needs to be big to be effective, I agree. But, I saw on a documentary of FIFA corruption that one guy making millions in (I think NY) didn’t file taxes for over ten years, maybe twenty. I didn’t know it was possible until then. Someone actually downvoted my comment above, can you believe? :-D
euroderf 2y ago
You probably just broke a RICO statute or something...
vvpan 2y ago
I think it is actually a good idea, in theory, but the penalties for failure to file are hefty.

breadwinner 2y ago

Here's the big picture: Only around 3% of total spending is federal payroll. Dismantling of essential services like free tax filing saves very little money. Total annual spending is around $6.75 trillion, of which only around $210 Billion is spent on federal payroll (not including military and postal workers). All these cuts are intended to pay for tax cuts for Elon Musk and his fellow billionaires.

zerocrates 2y ago
18F went around improving tech for other agencies and the government as a whole; shutting them down almost certainly costs money. Just as cutting from the IRS tends to cost money.
alabastervlog 2y ago
They didn’t bother to cut spending to pay for the last two fiscally-disastrous rounds of big Republican tax cuts. Why do it this time? No, they’re just trying to wreck the government. They were pretty open about it during the election.

araes 2y ago

Bad result for America, as at least the two that I've been familiar with have both been dramatically better website implementations than much of the federal government. GSA, Digital Analytics Program: https://analytics.usa.gov/ https://analytics.usa.gov/ Huge amounts of data about how government websites are used including: locations (cities, countries), languages, referral sources, media sources, devices, browsers, OS, website destination, and top file accesses. Treasury, Government Spending Explorer: https://www.usaspending.gov/explorer/budget_function https://www.usaspending.gov/explorer/budget_function Really thorough breakdown of government spending from 2017 onward, with per month, per quarter, and year spending totals by budget function and agency. Divable categories so you can look at the $1,400,000,000,000 in National Defense spending, and actually find out a little about where it all goes to each year. Edit: Here's their Github and 1200 repositories: https://github.com/orgs/18F/repositories https://github.com/orgs/18F/repositories If I had enough money to hire them, I'd snap their employees up quickly.

onlyrealcuzzo 2y ago
The goal is to make government as dysfunctional as possible (beside the part that enforces corruption [for your side]), so people want it to get smaller and smaller (except for the corrupt parts that benefit exclusively them), so that it costs less, so that they pay less taxes, so that they have even more money (that they don't need). They definitely do not care if this "makes things worse". Often, it's intended.
- xyst 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - onlyrealcuzzo 2y ago
    No, absolutely wrong. Neoliberalism is about a big, functional government that is utopian and takes care of everything for you. "You own nothing, and you'll be happy." You can argue in practice it's terrible (subjective, no one really cares about your opinion). But it's hard to argue its GOAL is to be small.

aprilthird2021 2y ago

If what I'm reading is correct and this was a cost-recoverable function, then it's possible this work will be contracted out to private companies in the future. Already Trump has said the government will sell federal buildings and rent them instead. If this continues, it will be very similar to how the kleptocrats took over Russia when the Soviet Union fell...

nashashmi 2y ago

I always thought that 18F would be the inspiration behind DOGE. Instead it seems to have become the opposite

acdha 2y ago
DOGE excuses the laws they’re breaking and the cost increases they’re incurring by claiming that there’s a crisis they have to respond to and that they’re so smart nobody else can do it. The last thing they need are smarter, more experienced people around who can show that none of those assertions are true and all of the costs being racked up are pure waste.
ronbenton 2y ago
The problem here is assuming DOGE’s stated goal is their real goal.
throwawaygovie 2y ago
18F, when it started, was viewed with suspicion by other federal agencies—here were these Silicon Valley know-it-alls, coming in to tell us how to do our jobs. So, basically DOGE. Except: 18F spent 10 years building trust in the government. As consultants, they met their clients where they were, and acted with empathy and understanding. This is pretty much the opposite of DOGE coming into an agency and seizing control. 18F’s model was geared toward continual improvement over time (“Move slowly and fix things”). It was, I think, a model with a more long term mindset than what is going on with DOGE.
roughly 2y ago
May I offer a proposal here? A great many people would've told you beforehand what DOGE was going to be and do (although I think most of us are a bit shocked about the speed and violence of the thing). I expect you heard some of it ahead of time, too. It may be worth updating your priors on the intents, beliefs, and capabilities of the people involved in this to match this new experience, and to apply those new priors as you hear new proposals and ideas from those same groups in the future.
- 2y ago

xyst 2y ago

The result of trickle down economics and neoliberalism to its core. Elimination of these “non-critical” agencies are nothing but a drop in the bucket compared to military spending and amounts tax cuts for billionaire parasites.

heisenbit 2y ago
Having conflict free in-house counsel is critical for major buy decisions. The last thing the buyer wants is the seller to write the spec and contract unsupervised. Eliminating technical and legal counsel is an enabling move for corruption.

rgovostes 2y ago

A good article from (2015) about the formation of 18F is “Inside Obama’s Stealth Startup”, https://www.fastcompany.com/3046756/obama-and-his-geeks https://www.fastcompany.com/3046756/obama-and-his-geeks. I can’t access an archived version at the moment but if someone finds a link, it is an insightful read.

vetrom 2y ago
(edit: first archive link was not complete) https://archive.is/vEExp https://archive.is/vEExp

heisenbit 2y ago

It is even nicer to get paid for consulting work (or does anyone believe Musk's drones are doing it for free) when it allows you to eliminate competition from lower paid staff. Tax dollars working on establishing new high watermarks for conflicts of interest.

aprilthird2021 2y ago
There was a guy who posted here in HN about to go work for Doge but he decided to learn physics in Hawaii instead. He sold a company and didn't need to work anymore. I imagine those are the types attracted to this work to potentially do it for free or cheap

skepticATX 2y ago

Sad that 18F is gone and that USDS is effectively gone. I’d long had in the back of my mind that I’d take take a short sabbatical at some point and work for one of these organizations - looks like that’s not happening.

toomuchtodo 2y ago
Worry not, if we get to vote again, I expect a hard swing back to the other side after these events. Lots of rebuilding to do from the ashes. Steady as she goes as we sail through the storm.
- labster 2y ago
  We’re not going to get to vote again. There is no future, America’s dreaming.
  - jwkpiano1 2y ago
    We sure as shit are or there will be civil conflict. Period.
    - mrtesthah 2y ago
      They’ll try to do elections Putin-style where the votes magically all end up being in favor of the incumbent and the opposition party becomes increasingly criminalized.
      - joshuahedlund 2y ago
        Elections are run by states, not the federal government. “They” will not be able to control them in this way.
        mrtesthah 2y ago
        The federal government can do a lot to support state actions to disenfranchise people, especially when the courts go along with it. And then there’s the threat of state legislatures to override the popular vote in national elections on the basis of “fraud”.

omnivore 2y ago

This thing was always underutilized even by the last 2 administrations. For all of the purported DOGE savings, these folks actually legitimately saved money from agencies, which is why big contractor shops were so opposed. They didn't take Congressional appropriations and charged agencies for work, but couldn't just go to agencies and pitch business, they had to be reached out to. Can't imagine how much better the thing had been if it'd been allowed to fully blossom, but given all the stuff they deal with it, it wasn't perfect but it was a really good experiment.

cushychicken 2y ago
Why couldn’t they go out and pitch their services to agencies?

gigatexal 2y ago

[flagged]

jcgrillo 2y ago
> I wonder if Trump is a KGB asset. It's easy to read into his parroting of putin's talking points as deliberate, but I think it might just be "wannabe mobster" talk. If anything it's probably a little more nuanced than uncle vlad pulling the puppet strings, but they sure do seem awful friendly.. I think it's risky to ascribe any real agency or planning to trump. He's a very simple creature, and he wears his cravings and impulses on his sleeve. I'm much more worried about the thinking people operating in his chaotic wake.
- gigatexal 2y ago
  There’s more and more speculation among the political punditry that Trump and company might be seeing Vlad as an ally to counter China at the expense of Europe. But given what little we know about Putin and his cunning as an ex KGB officer and likely one of the richest men on the planet — I’m Willing to go into conspiracy land and speculate that he has the ability to puppet master folks and I wouldn’t be surprised that he got his hooks into Trump.
- retzkek 2y ago
  There are many conspiracy theories related to his trip to Moscow in 1987, which I don’t ascribe much to, but the connections are there, if only for some “assistance” to be rendered quid pro quo. I’m a firm believer in Hanlon’s Razor, and like you ascribe most of his and his followers’ actions to stupidity, but there’s clearly also some maliciousness.
mindslight 2y ago
Decades of so-called conservatives' eagerness to rage against whatever other groups of Americans their mainstream media directs them at is the cancer. Krasnov and Muskow are just the metastasization that will finish killing our society. I don't know where their actual motives fall on the spectrum from being useful idiots stage-managed by social media bots and foreign agent handlers, to deliberately working for personal rewards in a new Chinese world order. But does it really matter?

gigatexal 2y ago

We need to help our 18F friends find work and get back on their feet. Open up your teams, your HR hiring processes, and let’s help these folks.

gigatexal 2y ago
Who would downvote this?
- hypothesis 2y ago
  Same brigade who flags all those topics above hostile government takeover?
- recursive 2y ago
  Someone who thinks it's off topic or doesn't contribute I guess.
  - gigatexal 2y ago
    Which is odd — all the YC startups likely have another talented pool of eager engineers to likely hire. Or they probably think they’ll just be replacing engineers with angentic ones (sic).
    - zemvpferreira 2y ago
      I didn't downvote you but hovered over the button. Your comment came across as empty virtue signalling. I'm not friends with anyone in 18F and while I'd be keen to read a blog post of your describing how you staffed two entire departments from their layoffs, I don't make hiring processes easier for people because they were fired for political purposes. Everyone gets treated equally well regardless where they come from. I also don't take kindly to people telling me what to do with my money. No offence intended, no intention of arguing, and you seem like a lovely person, but you did ask and I'm feeling grumpy.
      - 2y ago

cushychicken 2y ago

Is there any meaningful reason that states couldn’t start their own equivalent 18F at the state level? I live in Massachusetts and I know a bunch of socially conscious techies who’d love to help out in this manner. I have no idea if there is need for 18F at the state level, but I could see something like this working OK in MA, CA, and maybe NY.

tmm 2y ago
Many states do have something like 18F. Massachusetts has Mass Digital[1], Washington has WaTech[2], Maryland has announced[3] the formation of one. [1] https://www.mass.gov/orgs/massachusetts-digital-service https://www.mass.gov/orgs/massachusetts-digital-service [2] https://watech.wa.gov/services https://watech.wa.gov/services [3] https://governor.maryland.gov/news/press/pages/governor-moore-announces-action-to-transform-maryland-executive-branch-digital-services.aspx https://governor.maryland.gov/news/press/pages/governor-moor...
- janeerie 2y ago
  Colorado also has one: https://oit.colorado.gov/colorado-digital-service https://oit.colorado.gov/colorado-digital-service
- vitorsr 2y ago
  California Department of Technology: https://cdt.ca.gov/ https://cdt.ca.gov/ Texas Department of Information Resources: https://dir.texas.gov/ https://dir.texas.gov/ New York State Office of Information Technology Services: https://its.ny.gov/ https://its.ny.gov/
rcpt 2y ago
> Massachusetts

EfficientDude 2y ago

Not a problem - they can learn to mine coal.

fitsumbelay 2y ago

This feels like another designed distraction -- designed to impact real human lives, as humans are only cannon fodder to Trump and co -- that'll either be clawed back or wallow in legal limbo throughout Trump's presidency. I'd like to think there's an enormous backlash coming in the form of mid terms and maybe other things but it's hard to set realistic expectations these days when it comes to American politics The author's adoption of Elon Musks's irritating "deleted" lingo is quite a vibe though. Not.

vvpan 2y ago

New York Times wrote [1] a pretty extensive expose on how the government takeover has happened. Basically Musk started infiltrating the government with his agents a couple of years ago so by the time inauguration happened he had access to all the passwords. I am not sure which laws were broken but if they were I hope the administration that comes in 2029 will not overlook these people's contribution. [1] https://archive.ph/oJRrI https://archive.ph/oJRrI

physhster 2y ago
It's somewhat interesting that the NYT acts all outraged while the refused to report on the orange guy's numerous conflicts of interest/crimes/dubious connections, and all out penchant for fascism before the election...
- faitswulff 2y ago
  Can’t shill outrage without something to be outraged about
  - alabastervlog 2y ago
    I do wonder just how large a revenue boost a lot of news outlets saw during the first Trump administration, and how much that played into how weirdly favorably they treated him in this campaign.
- khazhoux 2y ago
  How do you figure? I saw plenty of coverage. What did they miss?
  - bbor 2y ago
    Yeah I’m plenty critical of the NYT myself (esp. in their last month of coverage), but they do ostensibly cover any big news story, including the ones about Trump. Re:fascism, I specifically remember them covering the “I need generals like Hitler had” comment, to pick a memorable example. While we’re at it, they even endorsed Harris as an institution, writing; “This unequivocal, dispiriting truth — Donald Trump is not fit to be president — should be enough for any voter who cares about the health of our country and the stability of our democracy to deny him re-election,”

jcgrillo 2y ago

IIRC these organizations were originally formed in reaction to how badly contractors screwed up the original healthcare.gov rollout? So if the idea is to replace them with a private sector contract who gets it? Palantir?

ronbenton 2y ago
Probably one of Elon’s companies

stefankuehnel 2y ago

Is it possible that the 18F website is no longer available? It doesn't seem to work anymore: https://18f.gsa.gov https://18f.gsa.gov

ronbenton 2y ago
Yes they tore it down.
throwawaygovie 2y ago
It was taken down. In general, 18F’s open source work was in the public domain, though, and I know there have been efforts to archive it recently. Additionally, it looks like some of 18F’s public guides are still available (e.g. the “Derisking” guide, which is all about how to structure your IT projects to be less likely to fail spectacularly: https://guides.18f.gov/derisking/ https://guides.18f.gov/derisking/)

dylanz 2y ago

This sucks for accessibility.

ein0p 2y ago

Lots of people are hyperventilating about DirectFile, but: 1. IRS itself created DirectFile. 18F merely provided some unquantifiable "support" 2. DirectFile is not shut down.

nxobject 2y ago
Don’t worry - I’m sure that if Scott Bessent’s ever worried about his job he won’t hesitate to get rid of Direct File.
boroboro4 2y ago
Lets bet DirectFile is going to be shutdown in the next one year?
janeerie 2y ago
I don't know why you're getting downvoted, but you are correct. It's essential that as many people as possible know about and use Direct File this year, to provide evidence that it ought to be continued.
- ein0p 2y ago
  +1. I agree. The government should not shut down a way to collect revenues.
  - nxobject 2y ago
    What are you talking about? Direct File completes tax return forms for types of income that already have taxes withheld.

cwdegidio 2y ago

I've worked closely with 18F staff. They are/were some of the most dedicated folks I've ever had the pleasure to work beside. Based on my interactions, they were very dedicated to web standards that made the web open and easy for all people to use. Some of the best a11y researchers & advisors who had real empathy and compassion. Anyone who picks these folks up for their org is going to be the real winner here.

dang 2y ago

Related ongoing threads: A Letter to the American People - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43224350 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43224350 - March 2025 (298 comments) 18F GitHub Repositories - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43222842 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43222842

hayst4ck 2y ago

Everyone should watch the director of the Office of Management and Budget, Russell Vought, speak on government workers: We want the bureaucrats to be traumatically affected. When they wake up in the morning, we want them to not want to go to work because they are increasingly viewed as the villains. We want their funding to be shut down so that the EPA can’t do all of the rules against our energy industry because they have no bandwidth financially to do so. We want to put them in trauma. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBH9TmeJN_M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBH9TmeJN_M 18F are the bureaucrats they want to traumatize.

Modified3019 2y ago
“The cruelty is the point”
- khazhoux 2y ago
  Incorrect. Their goal is to dissolve these agencies, to reduce regulation that burden certain industries.
  - genter 2y ago
    How is that incorrect? They're deliberately being cruel to government employees so they quit and the agencies are de facto dissolved.
    - khazhoux 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - fragmede 2y ago
        Why would you assume either? Do you have access to brain scanning technology that would let you know what goes on in the minds of these men? If they think that the federal government is all waste, why wouldn't being cruel to them be more important than this idea about efficiency that idiots are absolutely eating up.

tac19 2y ago

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djur 2y ago
You've been "told" that? Who's been telling you that? I've seen some people on the Internet say it, sure. Why do they matter to you?
- tac19 2y ago
  If you think the people who support Trump haven't heard this message, then I don't know what to tell you. They have also failed to hear what sounds to them like love-for-country, from the opposite side. We can argue til the cows come home how true it is or not, but it has played a role in what we're seeing unfold.
  - djur 2y ago
    Many people who support Trump also think that people like me and my friends are child-abusing Satanists, that there are secret underground military bases containing millions of abducted children, that there's hidden "med-bed" technology that cures all disease that They have suppressed, that JFK Jr. is still alive, etc. The people who have promoted these ideas have been boosted by the President and his allies, invited to the White House, given positions of power in his administration, etc. I don't know why the genuinely irrational, harmful things these people believe somehow means that I shouldn't be angry about immensely worthwhile and beneficial programs being shut down on the whim of an unelected billionaire.
antonvs 2y ago
> We've been told for a long time that the USA is a racist, sexist, illegitimate nation, founded on slavery and stolen land. Would it have helped to instead be told that you have poor comprehension skills and limited understanding of nuance? Because that’s clearly the case if the above quote describes a conclusion that you reached.
- 2y ago

arthurgibson 2y ago

18f.gsa.gov - https://web.archive.org/web/20250301115820/https://18f.gsa.gov/ https://web.archive.org/web/20250301115820/https://18f.gsa.g...

19g-1 2y ago

[dead]

ramoz 2y ago

Good riddance. There are better factions within the government doing truly remarkable things. Largely in DoD and integrated well with industry service providers; all of whom have ample gov't experience. If you can flip bureaucracy in DoD, you can flip it in the rest of gov. Beyond that, every agency should how it's own _18F_

foobar876345 2y ago

This is a good program that should be retained. But theres a nagging thing bothering me about the whole dynamic going on with DOGE critics. You get mad at the waste this represents, the unfairness. Ask your average middle class worker how they feel about the taxes taken out of their paycheck being wasted in the massive amount of waste fraud and abuse we all know happens in government. That is massively unfair. It one thing to lose a job because of a policy change. It’s quite another to have every paycheck docked at threat of state violence to fund the kind of stuff we are hearing about. Budget cuts and shutdowns are normal in business and all too rare in government. The argument that this or that program is good isn’t enough. But we see all these concerns and complaints based on basically that. This ignores the scale and gravity and historical incalcalitrant nature of the problem we actually have to deal with now. It’s not an option anymore. So can we please stop the wailing and gnashing of teeth and absolutely give feedback on what programs are good and why they deserve to be reinstated. I have a feeling they want to wait a year or two to find out what actually mattered.

rqtwteye 2y ago
I think the main criticism of DOGE is that there seems no deliberation at all. They cut whatever Musk and friends don't personally like or what they don't understand after 10 minutes looking at it. Such an effort should be a long careful process, not a hit and run job.
acdha 2y ago
The average worker doesn’t appreciate all of the different things the government does, and we’ve had decades of polls showing that people wildly misunderstand where money is spent. For example, people think we spend a lot more on foreign aid than we actually do – and also think that we should spend more than we do: https://www.usglc.org/blog/americans-vastly-overestimate-u-s-foreign-assistance/ https://www.usglc.org/blog/americans-vastly-overestimate-u-s... I mention this because there’s another side of this: taxes have been cut massively over the last half century, but a lot of people have not internalized what that means and simply assume that most of the money is going to something they don’t like. Cutting expenditures in any meaningful way means cutting the military, and the big social programs like Medicaid, SNAP, etc. People talk like we’re spending trillions on foreign and buying Reagan’s welfare queens new Cybertrucks but it’s really coming down to whether we want to spend less on the military, deal with our world-leading medical costs, or have rich people pay taxes at the same rates they paid around the turn of the century. The DOGE cuts work out to a few dollars per person total, and that’s before you factor in the significant new costs those cuts have incurred. It’s like looking at your personal budget and saying that the place to cut is your monthly movie date while ignoring rent, food, and car payments.

jordanpg 2y ago

All of this lament is great, but if you don’t like this, please pick up the phone and call your reps. Every day. Please. It’s an emergency. No one is coming to save us.

everybodyknows 2y ago

The veterans now have their own website: https://18f.org/ https://18f.org/

giardini 2y ago

This topic should be shut down. Many people are presenting outlandish ideas here. Especially common is the idea that organizations act (and even think) the same as individuals.

EasyMark 2y ago
It's not outlandish because the tail wagging the dog in this case is only a few billionaires, Dump and Husk and a couple of others. So I think we should allow it.

esbranson 2y ago

Login.gov for example. No matter how much 18F built, the other agencies like the IRS were never going to implement them. You know, because of Trump. Tens of thousands of millions (ie billions) meant nothing. My biggest fear is that they stop firing people, leaving us with the worst of the worst.