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I don't think the UK government would try to put Apple out of business if they don't comply it's more likely that they would just get heavily fined until they d
by Lio 2y ago
I don't think the UK government would try to put Apple out of business if they don't comply it's more likely that they would just get heavily fined until they do so.
The most likely outcome, I would guess, is that Apple just stop offering Advanced Data Protection as a service in the UK rather than create some kind of backdoor.
It's a weak proposition from the government because anyone with something to hide will just move it somewhere else with encryption. Honest UK consumers are the one's getting the shitty end of the stick because we're about to loose protection from criminals.
Daft waste of time.
- matthewdgreen 2y agoYou're assuming that turning off ADP in the U.K. is sufficient to appease the British Government. The Investigatory Powers Act can also be interpreted to give the U.K. the right to ask for encrypted data from users outside of the U.K. (see Apple making this exact point in a filing here [1].) Turning off ADP in the U.K. doesn't end the controversy if that's what's at stake. [1] https://bsky.app/profile/matthewdgreen.bsky.social/post/3lhlll4ckus2o https://bsky.app/profile/matthewdgreen.bsky.social/post/3lhl...
- Spoom 2y agoI mean, "Apple refuses to hand over private data to government at cost of UK business" is a pretty good headline.
- lenerdenator 2y agoGive me that sort of commitment to privacy and translucent colorful cases for future Macs and Tim Apple's got my money for the next five years at least.
- snapcaster 2y agoYes, this would be something i would love to read
- docmars 2y agoGive Apple a big enough incentive to negotiate with and they may very well cave. If I've learned anything about corporations, it's that money and incentives always speak louder than their purported values.
- convolvatron 2y agothis isn't apple weighing ethics against revenue. this is apple being forced to decide how much their pro-privacy marketing is really getting them in the market.
- gessha 2y agoGiven that privacy is why my friends and I have iPhones, Apple will lose a lot of users and developers if they go back on privacy in any way.
- throwaway48476 2y agoApple doesn't give their Chinese customers any privacy.
- mycall 2y agoLinux based smartphones will sell like crazy at that point.
- gessha 2y agoThat’s the utopia that I want to live in lol but in reality, I think GrapheneOS will pick up more users.
- collyw 2y agoAndroid are technically linux based. I bought the Ubuntu phone. The phone was nice, but there were bareley any apps, and the maps app only worked online, which was useless outside of my home country. A dissapointment overall.
- hackernewds 2y agoI will stop using a service or hardware that could grant peaking rights into my folders to a possible administration like the one currently in the US. On day 1, zero hesitation
- ForHackernews 2y agoI have bad news for you...
- TechnicalVault 2y agoIt creates a nasty precedent doesn't it? If Apple can provide the UK government with foreign data, what's to stop Russia or China making them provide data on UK minister's phones, or more likely dissidents in exile? I can't see on what basis the government thinks they're going to get to be exceptional here?
- 8338550bff96 2y agoAt what point is this just extortionary cash grab from U.S. tech companies? Want to fund some expensive grand program? Find a reason to fine U.S. companies.
- eastbound 2y agoWhy not. Their hegemony is used as a weapon of war, since 1998 when Microsoft was condemned-but-not-penalized for its monopoly. Make it costly for USA to spy & conquer.
- 8338550bff96 2y agoLet us see how that works out for you
- aunty_helen 2y agoWhy are you using Russia and China as examples of the bad guys here. They're not asking for global access to everyones data, the UK is. The UK are the bad guys.
- throwaway48476 2y agoDPRUK
- outside1234 2y agoHe is just trying to show how it would feel if the shoe was on the other foot.
- 2y ago
- arghwhat 2y agoThey might have to settle for it. The power of a government is not equal to what legislation they pass - they are heavily limited by the economic and publicity consequences of decisions. As such, any outcome where this is enforced will be a compromise.
- gist 2y agoGuess what? Trump will (hopefully) come to the rescue here. Don't laugh at that. I'd imagine he will be helpful possibly even with some of the EU rules such as in particular the one which makes even small US companies liable (as I recal) for notifying users of cookies on a website.
- coolspot 2y agoTim Apple has been on inauguration, so very possible.
- anonym29 2y agoIs calling him Tim Apple some sort of inside joke I'm out of the loop on? We don't call Elon "Elon Tesla" or Satya "Satya Microsoft".
- hackeman300 2y agoThe president has called him that on occasion
- anonym29 2y agoTIL. Thank you!
- genewitch 2y agoOnce, and in context it was "Tim [at] Apple", because he loves to name drop like that." Any future mentions of Tim Apple by the president are tongue in cheek.
- gist 2y agoProbably correct for OP to present as "Tim Apple" (hence giving some kind of hint to reflect on)
- niemandhier 2y agoThat’s probably the reason apple is resisting. They are currently certified as moderately trust worthy for government operations in Germany. Giving in would invalidate that. https://support.apple.com/en-bh/guide/certifications/apc37dae516c6/web https://support.apple.com/en-bh/guide/certifications/apc37da...
- ExoticPearTree 2y agoIf Apple sticks to their guns, they can just stop doing business in the UK. And the UK government will have zero rights to demand anything from Apple.
- bmelton 2y agoIn China, Apple limits end to end encryption and stores user data on state-owned servers. The Chinese app stores censors apps like the New York Times and Washington Post, disallows privacy apps like Signal, or any VPN that might bypass the great firewall. I think the odds that they quit trying to earn the ~$100B annual revenues they get from the UK over this is closer to zero than 1
- IshKebab 2y agoThey obviously don't care about privacy enough to fully withdraw from the UK! That would be insane.
- kurikuri 2y agoIt’s odd, I wonder how that will interact with apple’s existing FIPS 140-2/3 certifications.
- varispeed 2y ago[flagged]
- sneak 2y ago> The most likely outcome, I would guess, is that Apple just stop offering Advanced Data Protection as a service in the UK rather than create some kind of backdoor. First, these are the same thing. Second, ADP is already off by default so approximately nobody uses it. It is irrelevant from a privacy standpoint whether or not they offer it.
- shwouchk 2y agoADP is a relatively new thing. it makes sense to roll it out gradually both from engineering POV as well as marketing. Further, as all other forms of e2ee, it makes you responsible for the encryption keys. As a user on the platform I am quite happy it is offered. Considering that these days it is quite difficult not to have a mobile device associated with “you” (you open links sent to “you” on your mobile device? consider that device compromised from privacy perspective), id rather it be on the platform with stronger protections.
- rcarmo 2y ago[flagged]
- altairprime 2y agoThe UK government can’t put Apple out of business; Apple can easily afford to simply exit all business in the UK. The UK is betting that Apple’s greed outweighs their principles. Long odds.
- reaperducer 2y agoThe UK is betting that Apple’s greed outweighs their principles. Long odds. Three weeks ago, I would have agreed with you. Then Tim Cook wrote a check for $1,000,000.00 to help pay for Donald Trump's inauguration party.† In spite of what they led us to believe over the last couple of decades, Tim Cook and Apple are no different than any of the other tech companies genuflecting before the new emperor, whose stated goals are the opposite of the "mission, vision and values" lies we were fed by the tech industry. † In case you (or anyone else) missed it: https://variety.com/2025/biz/news/apple-ceo-tim-cook-donates-1-million-trump-inauguration-1236265079/ https://variety.com/2025/biz/news/apple-ceo-tim-cook-donates...
- altairprime 2y agoAs Apple isn’t based in the UK and owes no fealty to their government. I don’t agree that your citation is relevant here. Apple is a US company. Bribing local officials to overlook the gay founder is sensible corporate practices, however uncomfortable that is to consider. Revoking privacy guarantees globally, reversing years of public opinion gains overnight, is not. The UK cannot do anything to materially harm Apple in any way that Apple can’t afford short of sending a double-oh to Cupertino.
- talldayo 2y ago> As Apple isn’t based in the UK and owes no fealty to their government Apple isn't based in China, they owe nothing to them either. Apple's willingness to backdoor and modify their services for actual authoritarianism is well[0] documented[1], at no point did they ever threaten to leave the respective markets. Every single spectator knows that Apple leaving these markets would be an admission of guilt. > Bribing local officials to overlook the gay founder is sensible corporate practices That hasn't been "sensible corporate practice" since American civil rights were instated. If that is the real motivation for Apple to pen their donation, it would be even more pathetic than a global encryption backdoor. It's not "uncomfortable" to consider, it's illegally discriminatory to a nonsense extent. What both of you are overlooking, and clearly what this entire thing is about, is antitrust enforcement. Tim Cook knows that Apple cannot survive if they are investigated by a fair commission, so he's trying to manipulate Trump into dropping the DOJ's cases, giving Apple unfair advantages vis-a-vis China and pressuring the EU into stopping their regulation. This is literally surface-level stuff if you even remotely understand Apple's commitment to shareholders and what drives their hardware and software margins in 2025. Everything else is advertisement and a chasing after wind. [0] https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/1/22361762/iphone-russia-startup-local-apps-yandex-mail-ru-law https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/1/22361762/iphone-russia-sta... [1] https://support.apple.com/en-us/111754 https://support.apple.com/en-us/111754 [2] https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cj4d75zl212o https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cj4d75zl212o
- hassleblad23 2y agoGovernments have much more power than global companies, even though it seems that they are untouchable from the outside.
- karel-3d 2y agoUK government wants a backdoor access to all users, worldwide, irrespective of their nationality.
- throwaway48476 2y agoThe UK needs to be reminded of 1776 before they reprise what gave rise to the 4th ammendment.
- reverendsteveii 2y agoYou're assuming people's actual motivations match up with their stated motivations. If your motivation is to be re-elected to a government post by appearing to be tough on terrorism and drugs, every possible outcome of this course of action benefits you. Apple leaves? They were terrorist enablers and you're better off without them. Apple acquiesces? You're the David who took on Apple's goliath and won safety for everyone (again, regardless of whether this actually improves safety for anyone). Apple ignores you? You have an ongoing feud with Dangerous Big Tech that you can campaign and fundraise on for as long as it lasts.
- mtillman 2y agoA backdoor for one is an opportunity for many. Given the UK is completely incapable of outspending most of the world on compute, this effectively hands their enemies that data they’re looking for.
- pentel-0_5 2y agoYep. It's the creation of an artificial Hobson's choice: "do this, or I'm breaking up with you."
- GeekyBear 2y ago> The most likely outcome, I would guess, is that Apple just stop offering Advanced Data Protection as a service in the UK Agreed. > Apple previously made its stance public when it formally opposed the UK government's power to issue Technical Capability Notices in testimony submitted in March 2024 and warned that it would withdraw security features from the UK market if forced to comply. https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2025/02/uk-demands-apple-break-encryption-to-allow-govt-spying-worldwide-reports-say/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2025/02/uk-demands-apple...
- caycep 2y agoI feel like the UK always tries to do this w/ encryption. I don't know if it's a cultural sway GCHQ has on legislators and such but it happens w/ every generation of cryptography. Weren't they the one that neutered GSM encryption such that it was essentially ineffective from the get go?
- tatersolid 2y ago> Weren't they the one that neutered GSM encryption such that it was essentially ineffective from the get go? The A5 cipher used in GSM came from France, but supposedly the Brits were also happy to have it be weak.
- st3fan 2y ago"It's a weak proposition from the government because anyone with something to hide will just move it somewhere else with encryption." This. Whether it is an app to install on your phone or desktop or simply a website to use. People who need encryption to make sure their communication is private will _easily_ find ways around any kind of government snooping.
- SilasX 2y ago>I don't think the UK government would try to put Apple out of business if they don't comply it's more likely that they would just get heavily fined until they do so. Sufficiently advanced "escalating fines until they comply" is indistinguishable from "putting them out of business".
- tonyedgecombe 2y agoThe government would soon cave if Apple started disinvesting in the UK. The current government are desperate for growth.
- lakjsljlkj 2y agoSounds like you're assuming that UK's goal is to stop criminals. I don't think that's their goal. I think that's their cover story. As for Apple, their daily/hourly/whatever fines might be less than cost of a major ad campaign if they were to buy that publicity directly. Sounds like a good deal for them to refuse to honor the request.
- chrisjj 2y agoSo what is the goal?
- xp84 2y agoYes, encryption is one of the most “cat’s out of the bag” situations - even assuming every company worldwide is cowed into submission by governments to add back doors, all they’re going to be catching is the dumb and unsophisticated criminals and even that will diminish as even the dummies realize every text and call is wiretapped once people start seeing their private communiques come out in court. I suppose there are people in the camp advocating for back doors who still think it’s worth the tremendous downsides to be able to catch that group of criminals (there are certainly plenty of idiot criminals), but anybody can just use plain GPG emails for free, or deploy some open source encrypted chat server on a $20 a month cloud instance… and I assume operators in places like Russia or China won’t mind hosting easy services for less nerdy criminals willing to pay in crypto.
- gspetr 2y ago> the dumb and unsophisticated criminals This appears to be majority of them if Brian Krebs is to be trusted. Very few have proper OPSEC, fewer still are disciplined enough to prevent cross contaminating their virtual identities. Even if you keep your communications airtight, boneheaded decisions when they move the money from cyberspace into meatspace are quite common: people living way beyond their means, 22 y/o's buying $200K+ cars without proper income records get caught quickly once people start looking.
- mark_l_watson 2y agoWhat is up with the UK? I have always loved my British friends and appreciated England’s history (setting aside their brutality during the British Empire). I just don’t understand where they went wrong on curtailing free speech rights of their citizens, privacy rights, etc. I just hope we in the USA don’t follow their lead. Democracies without free speech and privacy are not really democracies.
- kridsdale1 2y ago> I just don’t understand where they went wrong on curtailing free speech rights of their citizens, privacy rights, etc. Isn’t this precisely the set of causes that precipitated The Declaration of Independence?
- trompetenaccoun 2y agoYes but no, post WW2 the UK was one of the most liberal places in the world. Somehow things took a turn in the past two decades or so. And then around the 2020s the decline started to rapidly accelerate. The stories that have come out lately are really insane.
- 8note 2y agothe UK has been ahead of the US on anti-liberal policies for the past decade or more. bexit came before the trump election
- anonym29 2y agodo you have other examples? I have a limited perspective as an American, but I understand Brexit to have been more or less an exception to the way the political winds have generally been blowing in the UK in the last 15 years? Also, to be clear, are you using anti-liberal in the American political sense of the world liberal (i.e. progressive), or in on the classical liberal sense (which has some overlap with small-l libertarianism within US political circles)?
- NooneAtAll3 2y ago(lose*)
- matt-p 2y agoI honestly don't even think we'd fine them real money, it would be too unfriendly to business. So what's this? I think political posturing or at worst the worlds weakest bargaining chip.
- homefree 2y agoMaybe USG will now stand behind American companies and push back on this sort of thing? Enough of the EU or UK fining US companies over bullshit. In this case it's also better for the UK consumers too.
- noduerme 2y agoApple should and can just sever its relationship with the British public and let them reap the consequences of submitting to their nanny state. Although it's worth wondering why anyone would use any type of corporate cloud backup, anyway. Certainly if you had anything worth hiding, you would disable that first. That just makes this whole endeavor that much more dubious.
- KurSix 2y agoAnyone with serious intent to hide something will just use another encrypted service or self-host their data...
- thewileyone 2y agoIf just turning off ADP placates the UK, it implies that the UK already has a backdoor to unencrypted data.