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World's darkest and clearest skies at risk from industrial megaproject
- WorkerBee28474 2y ago[flagged]
- hombre_fatal 2y agoFrom TFA: > It includes constructing a port, ammonia and hydrogen production plants Ports and especially chemical plants are basically lightbulb arrays.
- WorkerBee28474 2y agoThey're not going to build a port "just 5 to 11 kilometers from telescopes" (from TFA) when the telescopes are 15km from the ocean. A chemical plant wouldn't be inland either because it will want access to the port.
- ok_dad 2y agoYou think a port and industrial plant that requires 3/4 of a gigawatt of electricity will be built within a limit of less than 4000m from the ocean port? Every port I’ve seen took at least a few kilometers of inland space. I also don’t think a few kilometers makes much of a difference to the light reduction, basically any light at all will harm the telescope. I am surprised at the “meh” response from the commenters here, they want to build an industrial plant in one of the best places for astronomy. Can’t the plant go elsewhere? The telescope cannot go elsewhere.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- returningfory2 2y agoThe problem is that, remarkably, there’s always a reason not to build. A different site in Chile will probably have some obscure species of beetle, or rocks that someone has interpreted as an Indigenous site, or some minor highway that can’t handle the traffic, etc etc etc, so that we can’t build there either.
- ok_dad 2y agoWell then I guess we’ve run out of land!
- kristjansson 2y agoThe world is trade offs. Some are worse than others
- hackingonempty 2y agoIf you were wondering if there was any issue even less important to Americans than the lives of pedestrians and cyclists, it is dark skies.
- darthoctopus 2y agowhy is this downvoted? the specific cities (notably in Arizona) that have taken deliberate action on this are exceptions proving the general rule that light pollution is demonstrably less of a policy concern even compared to the notorious American disdain for walkable infrastructure.
- WorkerBee28474 2y agoThe telescopes are 8,000 miles south of America. Why does American policy matter?
- ggm 2y agoBecause the goods made will be sold to American consumers directly and indirectly and are priced to reflect all kinds of costs including EPA compliance in domestic markets. European markets also demand European norms to labour and health and environment are met, even if tokenistically. To some it is a form of protectionism. It's also the "why can't we make it here" reasoning. If you tried to make it in the US it would be white anted out by lawfare. That's what happened to BHP when they proposed metals and minerals processing plants on the Californian coast.
- bryanlarsen 2y agoAmmonia and hydrogen are essentially energy export mechanisms. They'll be exported to energy poor places, aka Asia, not America. they can and are made in America without fanfare. You wouldn't have states fighting to exlude green hydrogen or ammonia plants, you'd have states competing on how many subsidies they could give them.
- thereisnospork 2y agoBANANAs in action, can't even build a green energy facility in the literal middle of nowhere without complaints.
- ok_dad 2y agoIt’s an industrial plant with an attached power plant, it’s not like families will be using this power.
- thereisnospork 2y agoHow is it you think families get power, goods, and services? Ammonia makes fertilizer - this plant will help feed millions, dropping food costs. Even if the power this plant is generating won't go directly to families, it will be going into the things they eat and the things they buy in place of power they can use directly.
- exe34 2y agois this the last place on earth to build that kind of industry?
- daedrdev 2y agoI think its fair enough to not build it here, but everywhere there will be arguments made against all projects so it can get old fast
- saddat 2y agoAgain, not much use for the locals at this elevation . That’s super dry area
- fnordpiglet 2y agoIt’s nothing to do with the merits of the project itself but that it would destroy a singular planetary resource.
- ungreased0675 2y agoWould it be unthinkable to just NOT have bright lights pointed at the sky all night? Could they still do this project with severe restrictions on light emissions? If there’s some reason it absolutely must include hundreds of outdoor sodium vapor lights then build it somewhere else.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- WorkerBee28474 2y ago> Would it be unthinkable to just NOT have bright lights pointed at the sky all night? That's possible, and directed/shielded lighting is commercially available. However, the project's critics have already said that no plan the project comes up with will be good enough - “Even if [AES] do a perfect job, using perfect lights that probably don’t even exist and perfect shielding, there will be an impact and that will be significant [0] [0] https://www.science.org/content/article/chilean-energy-megaproject-threatens-world-s-largest-telescopes https://www.science.org/content/article/chilean-energy-megap...
- aragilar 2y agoThe plan of "don't build a major industrial centre 5km from the best site for optical astronomy in the world, build it somewhere else" seems like a perfect viable one to me.
- WorkerBee28474 2y agoSo that would be Mauna Kea. I don't believe there is any industry being built near there.
- aragilar 2y agoI'm happy to be proven wrong, but I though Paranal beat Mauna Kea (and some basic google searches aren't throwing up anything that makes me question it, e.g. https://www.eso.org/gen-fac/pubs/astclim/espas/espas_reports/ESPAS-MaunaKea.pdf https://www.eso.org/gen-fac/pubs/astclim/espas/espas_reports..., though that's from more than 20 years ago, so site quality has likely changed since then). There's also the issue of northern vs. southern sky.
- dheera 2y agoI did a bunch of astrophotography in the Atacama desert last year, it was an absolutely phenomenal place. There are a lot of celestial objects you cannot image from the northern hemisphere and there aren't many other places in the southern hemisphere with weather conditions that good (maybe Namibia but it doesn't have the altitude advantage). The only thing I wish is that some of the parks would be open after dark to shoot landscapes. Most of the parks closed before sunset, so I had to mostly image from roadsides, which was kind of sad.
- rexarex 2y agoI think there’s ways to get out there at night. I know people host ‘clandestinos’ aka parties out there.
- dheera 2y agoYeah the guards go home for the evening and then you can probably walk in after dark. You'd have to walk a really long distance in some of them though, because the vehicle gates are usually a very long walk from the scenery, and that's at high altitude.
- dylan604 2y agoIt’s not just industrial sites. My “local” (4 hours away) dark sky spot is constantly battling light pollution. There’s an industrial complex that’s made an agreement to turn their lights off at midnight. They’ve made deals with the county to replace the lighting to be dark sky friendly, but they still have private land owners that refuse to cooperate and replace their lighting. I have many images of the Milky Way with ranch lights dotting horizon.
- kortilla 2y agoHeadline is dramatic but misleading. Essentially the entire 7/10 of the planet in the ocean has skies as dark as this. Clarity significantly reduces the footprint, but there are massive chunks of mountain ranges untouched by human development in both hemispheres that would be just as clear as here. If clear skies are important enough to block a new development, they should just unlock some land in the Himalayas or Rockies to replace this observatory.
- niccl 2y agowho pays for moving the observatory?
- adriand 2y ago> they should just unlock some land in the Himalayas or Rockies to replace this observatory That "just" is sure doing a lot of work in this suggestion.
- tw04 2y agoWho is paying for this move and all the requisite supporting infrastructure? You aren’t just dropping it from a helicopter and calling it a day.
- seattle_spring 2y agoI recommend reading up on why these observatories and telescopes are where they are in the Atacama. It’s not just about the lack of light pollution, it’s a specific geography that “smoooths out” the air. Something about the high elevation prominence coming up directly from the coast creates a unique situation that allows for longer exposures, something that is less possible out in the open ocean. The only other comparable place are the high peaks of Hawaii, but these are mostly off limits due to native protections. Destroying an aspect of the dark skies in Chile will absolutely hurt astronomy. No, they would not just be able to move their operations out onto a different mountain range or into the open ocean.
- gmueckl 2y agoThis spot in the Atacama desert isn't special for it's lack of light pollution alone. The sky is rarely, if ever covered in clouds or haze. And the temperature gradient in the air has a shape that prevents random atmospheric distortions that would make long term exposures blurry. This combination of properties is exceedingly rare on Earth.
- 8bitsrule 2y agoNot sure this would be affected: The Vera Rubin scope, which cost $600+ million, will see first light this July. It's capable of creating a map of the entire available sky every few days. Containing 40B objects, several times more than all previous sky surveys combined. Half of those images are already threatened by constellations of comm satellites. Another concern is spy satellite imaging. https://archive.is/RzCNI#selection-779.4-779.14 https://archive.is/RzCNI#selection-779.4-779.14 So what compels AES, a US power company, to build a facility there, in all the world ... which would pump out that much pollution?
- aragilar 2y agoNo, the Vera Rubin Observatory is on Cerro Pachón (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vera_C._Rubin_Observatory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vera_C._Rubin_Observatory) rather than Cerro Paranal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very_Large_Telescope https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very_Large_Telescope), the maps on the right hand side show the difference (~6° latitude). Similarly I wouldn't expect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Silla_Observatory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Silla_Observatory to be affected, but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremely_Large_Telescope https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremely_Large_Telescope would be I expect (noting that I haven't seen anything beyond the ESO press release).
- Daub 2y agoWhen I lived in the Welsh countryside, there were occasional nights where I could not see my hand in front of my face. The requirements were that it was new moon, and that there was slight fog. We also lived deep in a valley, which helped. I had great fun navigating my way to the local pub in complete darkness. The odd thing is that when I recount that experience, some people refuse to believe me. Of course they are all city dwellers.
- m463 2y agoperil-sensitive sunglasses wouldn't help!
- madaxe_again 2y agoI live that experience daily. I live in a very remote corner of Portugal - we are between bortle 2 and 3 - in the bottom of a deep, steep valley. And yes - when it’s a new moon and the haze from the river blots out the stars, the experience is quite akin to having gone blind. In fact, it’s so dark I’ve used some of those nights to develop film at the outdoor sink. One thing I’ve noted is that wildlife needs to see just as much as we do - I mean, obvious, right? - but those nights are always dead silent. No birds, no insects, no rustles of this that or the other in the undergrowth. Every little noise one makes seems an affront to the cloying, thick darkness. Perhaps it’s the same instinct at play. My place in wales used to have dark skies, even fairly recently - but LED street lighting along rural roads has put paid to that. I earnestly don’t understand why a lane that sees zero foot traffic and perhaps one car during darkness hours needs a streetlamp every ten meters - while waste collections only happen every six weeks. Ah, I have become a grumpy old astronomer.
- watersb 2y agoOn another piece of the electromagnetic spectrum, the ALMA radio telescope is also in the Atacama desert, north east of Paranal. The government agreed to a radio quiet zone in the areas surrounding ALMA. But now there's Starlink and other satellite constellations coming on line at an unprecedented pace.
- Dylan16807 2y agoAre those satellites broadcasting while over those areas? I don't see the connection here. In fact it looks like there's extra effort to let them keep running without causing problems https://public.nrao.edu/news/astronomers-satellite-internet-provider-develops-new-system-to-share-the-sky/ https://public.nrao.edu/news/astronomers-satellite-internet-...
- watersb 2y agoThanks for the press release link. My knowledge is outdated. So reading the linked research paper: The 2023 experiment with the single-dish Green Bank Telescope (GBT) demonstrated that Starlink beam-forming could reduce radio interference at the primary telescope beam (the "boresight") by as much as two orders of magnitude. This experiment required coordination between StarLink and the GBT operators at the National Radio Astronomy Observatory (NRAO). Another NRAO telescope in North America, the Very Large Array (VLA), has been conducting experiments of its own, in coordination with StarLink and the Navajo Nation. An enclave of the Navajo Nation, the community of Alamo is northeast of the VLA site. Isolated from the main extent of the Navajo Nation, Alamo has close ties to the nearby village of Magdalena, home to many of the VLA workers. This region surrounding the VLA could benefit greatly by StarLink internet services. The VLA StarLink tests showed that most of the interference comes from the satellite, rather than the terrestrial user terminals. Tests to automate the process of avoiding interference are ongoing. It will involve sharing observation scheduling and telescope configuration data from NRAO to derive beam shaping modes for the StarLink satellites. I know that the VLA RF chain has the flexibility to handle this, and that the VLA correlator was built specifically to handle interference of this nature. The design stems from the early 2000's and was informed by increasing interference from GPS satellite constellations. The process has yet to be automated, but there's cause to believe that it can work. https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.3847/2041-8213/ad6b24 https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.3847/2041-8213/ad6b24 (I worked on the VLA monitor and control system software design 1999-2005. Many design reviews. Shared an office with the engineer who designed the correlator configuration API.)
- cwillu 2y agohttps://www.aesandes.com/en/press-release/aes-andes-submits-new-renewable-project-sea-and-reaches-us3-billion-photovoltaic https://www.aesandes.com/en/press-release/aes-andes-submits-...
- markvdb 2y agoA cynic would read this as as "I can't believe our (AES) luck. There's a good chance we can squeeze the Europeans for lots of money. We'll gladly share some of the proceeds with the new US president's cronies for having them do the haggling."
- SiempreViernes 2y agoYou want a real conspiracy theory? How about this: some rich Thirty Meters Telescope patron saw the peril the project has been in and set out to sabotage the ELT! Of course, the ELT is proper funded, so the best he can do is making it useless by ruining it's sky for a decade with construction dust and light.
- astrolx 2y agoI like that conspiracy ! They should be careful about retribution if the TMT lands on the Canary Island, sombebody could conspire to put another industrial facility next to it
- markvdb 2y agoOf course this is not about someone having for sole purpose to sabotage the ELT. Someone at AES could have had a run-of-the-mill business plan. They go ahead with it despite scientific objections because their profits > science. Then the election happens, and it's a win-win for them from a business point of view. They get unexpected free leverage from a more transactional presidential administration to either drop the plan and get extra compensation.
- yummybear 2y agoThe skies may be brightening, but it seems the world is turning darker.
- SiempreViernes 2y agoA local story about it: https://radio.uchile.cl/2025/01/11/proyecto-inna-la-iniciativa-de-hidrogeno-verde-que-preocupa-a-los-astronomos/ https://radio.uchile.cl/2025/01/11/proyecto-inna-la-iniciati...
- senorrib 2y agoDefinitely a hard choice between an industrial complex generating thousands of jobs and a glorified camera.
- frereubu 2y agoDifficult to tell the economic / geographic context from a short article like this, but they mention the possibility of relocating the project. If possible that's a win / win, no? Sounds like it may just be the case that the dark sky aspect of this wasn't taken into consideration.
- jazzyjackson 2y agoGee, mapping every object in the observable universe (and possibly saving us from catastrophic meteor strikes) or pumping out a few more tons of ammonia? Framing does an awful lot of work.
- fastball 2y agoTelescopes in space are much better for saving us from catastrophic meteor strikes.
- 7373737373 2y ago99.9% of asteroid discoveries are done by ground based telescopes. The world is still a long way away from having many (and large) space based telescopes for this purpose due to the economics and sheer complexity involved.
- fastball 2y agoThat is because most of our telescopes in 2025 are ground-based, not because they're better at it. And we're not very far from having many telescopes in space at all. Every year the cost of payload to orbit is getting cheaper. Blue Origin is launching their New Glenn rocket today and SpaceX is having their 7th flight test of Starship in a few days. Starship specifically will drastically reduce the cost of a kg to orbit if it pans out, and this is looking more and more likely. A significantly reduced launch cost in turn drastically reduces the complexity and cost profile of the actual satellite telescopes.
- concordDance 2y agoHampering industry that will bring prosperity to thousands to avoid having to wait to do some specific types of astronomy until Starship is working doesn't seem like a good trade-off.
- topspin 2y agoI'm noticing that the reporting on this, including the ESO press release, is vague on exactly what this "industrial megaproject" happens to be. Ordinarily, there is no hesitation to disclose this, unless it's a military matter. Or a sacred cow. A sacred cow, indeed. It's a green energy operation powered by both wind and solar to generate hydrogen, electricity and ammonia. Here[1] is the AES Andes press release about this project, if you care to read the opposing spin on this matter: "AES Chile submitted an Environmental Impact Assessment (EIA) to Chilean permitting authorities for a proposed industrial-scale green hydrogen project called Inna. The project, which is in early-stage development, could include a variety of solutions, including green hydrogen for export or domestic consumption, aligned with Chile’s National Green Hydrogen Strategy." [1] https://www.aesandes.com/en/press-release/aes-andes-submits-environmental-impact-assessment-project-inna https://www.aesandes.com/en/press-release/aes-andes-submits-... Land use. It's not just a fossil fuel shill talking point.
- 55555 2y agoThe article says "It includes constructing a port, ammonia and hydrogen production plants and thousands of electricity generation units near Paranal."
- jordanb 2y agoEveryone I know in environmental activism hates hydrogen and sees it as green-washing the petrochemical industry.
- est31 2y agoI understand it if you look at the receiving end. Say in Germany they built natural gas plants shortly before the war under the premise that they must be Hydrogen ready, aka right now we use natural gas but promise in a few years when Hydrogen production is there, we'll switch to Hydrogen. That can be very easily criticized as green washing of the gas plants (although a gas plant is much better than what it would have replaced, brown coal). Now with the war and the pipelines destroyed, Germany went a different route and instead runs the coal plants for a longer time. But if you look at the production side, they are building a solar power plant. How is that green washing? There is no way to use a solar power plant other than to collect renewable energy. Either it is operational and collects renewable energy, to send it to various places, or it is not operational, but then it's been a bad investment for the investors. Now, maybe it could be part of some greater scheme where one uses this plant as the "source" of a multiple of the ammonium it can actually produce, and sells ammonium from fossil sources as made by Chilean sun. But that should then be addressed on its own, and not hamper the project itself (although of course a different location would be better that doesn't risk the operations of scientific instruments worth billions).
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- saddat 2y agoPair this with impact of mega constellations with 10k+ satellites , which not only destroy optical imaging, but also interfere with radio-astronomy
- fastball 2y agoLuckily we can stick telescopes in space (partially enabled by those constellations), where the sky is even darker and clearer.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- sobellian 2y agoOn a longer time horizon, we need to figure out how to conduct astronomy without holding large regions (countryside, LEO, etc.) as test articles to control. Constellations like Starlink have already blown through that roadblock and rather than backlash we now see various governments / firms following them. LEO will only become more crowded. In a more extreme case we have planetary protection where entire celestial bodies like Mars should remain sterile to preserve the possibility of their further study. It is easy to advance that policy while those bodies remain remote, but if we obtain the capability to develop the inner solar system then, much like LEO, we will do it regardless of the difficulty it imposes on xenobiologists.
- oldherl 2y agoThe best solution is to reduce the global population. Don't call me crazy. It's already happening in almost all developed countries. It's reasonable to predict that the remaining countries will follow in like 50 years. With a decline of population, the places that need to be lit up would also gradually reduce. More space for nature, for astronomy, for everything.
- gunian 2y agolet's go back to pre industrial society