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The chinese manufacturers seem to be the only ones willing to make cheap decent EVs. They are scaling like crazy, I hope they keep it up, might turn out to be o
by dalyons 2y ago
The chinese manufacturers seem to be the only ones willing to make cheap decent EVs. They are scaling like crazy, I hope they keep it up, might turn out to be one of the biggest forces in mitigating emissions. The legacy auto companies who only sell expensive luxury EVs deserve to be crushed by BYD and friends, I have no sympathy left at this point.
- bpodgursky 2y agoI want legacy EU/US automakers to pull their heads out of their a* and compete, but anyone who thinks BYD is succeeding only on CCP support is a clown. It's a real company that's brutally demolishing the competition. (I have a Tesla, but looking at the market, my next car might be a BYD minivan unless someone finally BUILDS A DOMESTIC FULL EV MINIVAN FFS).
- SoftTalker 2y agoDrag coefficient probably makes a minivan EV with good range quite difficult.
- bee_rider 2y agoIs that true? They are big but seem naturally… round. Teardrop-y.
- bpodgursky 2y agoThere's an EV Hummer... they can figure it out.
- SoftTalker 2y agoYeah, I did some cursory research and the reason most claimed is that minivans are simply not that popular. But neither are Hummers, yes they appeal to some people but you really don't see a lot of them out on the road.
- srockets 2y agoMinivans are extremely popular in the US, when lifted and with the roof removed from the back.
- prmoustache 2y agoI wouldn't call it mini though.
- srockets 2y agoThe hauling capacity is equivalent to a minivan, even if the footprint is bigger.
- _ea1k 2y agoYeah, it'd likely need 150kwh or so. That'd probably make it a $70k product, and I doubt the market for $70k minivans is huge. Then again, that is about the price of the id.buzz and some find it appealing with its much smaller pack.
- est 2y agoLiAuto Mega had drag coefficient of just 0.215 cd
- chii 2y ago> BYD is succeeding only on CCP support is a clown. their success is an outcome of a brutal competition in the past, orchestrated by the CCP. They're now obviously no longer "helped" by the CCP, but this company (and other companies, which might've died already) were definitely recipients of state support in the early days. The current crop of ICE car manufacturers in the west did not see it coming, and assumed they'd always have a dominant position. They deserve to lose. However, in the event of a war, this sort of loss would've had huge impact on the industrial capacity of the US, and might directly lead to a loss. The loss of industrial capacity for ship building in the US is already evident. Back in WW2, it's due to the US's shipbuilding (look up liberty ships) that allowed the logistics to sustain the war and ultimately win. It's due to having the car factories being available to convert to tank factories, that allowed the US to produce the masses of tanks and trucks and such required to sustain the war. So if a WW2 scenario happens today, the US will not have such options any more. With the exception of perhaps, air power. But surely, china is not only encroaching but likely will succeed in having a domestic plane manufacturing base. Sanctions, and export restrictions will not help. Tarriffs is only going to make cheap goods more expensive, but will not bring the manufacturing back.
- fastball 2y agoIf tariffs don't bring domestic manufacturing back, what will?
- pm90 2y agoA sane industrial policy.
- fastball 2y agoCould you clarify further? "Sane" is very subjectively defined.
- codedokode 2y agoI think you should not sell advanced industrial equipment, electronic parts and computers to everyone willing to pay because they can be used to produce things (including things that shoot, fly and explode). Sell only what can be used for entertainment, not for manufacturing. For example, make an export version of GPU that has very poor precision and makes mistakes in calculations. Nobody notices if the pixels in a game are colored little wrong, but you cannot do science on such a GPU. Also restrict export of scientific data. Keep monopoly on manufacturing things.
- gedy 2y ago> I want legacy EU/US automakers to pull their heads out of their a* and compete Honestly, what can they do? Labor is very expensive here, and would be loads of pushback for a fully automated assembly line. Plus safety, taxes, and other regulations would push the price up.
- chefandy 2y agoIsn’t most of the manufacturing already done in countries with far cheaper labor costs? It seems like a design problem, to me.
- kube-system 2y agoThe big 3 don't outsource to anywhere much cheaper than Canada and Mexico for most of the stuff they sell here.
- chefandy 2y agoMexico is a lot cheaper though, no?
- bpodgursky 2y agoUS manufacturers can get within 20% cost difference which tariffs can ameliorate. That's fine. A few extra environmental and labor protections won't break everything. TSMC managed it. But right now it's... 100% or 200%, or infinity since they simply have no models for some form factors. That's just rank incompetence.
- yard2010 2y agoHe means "treat workers like slaves, deny basic human rights, etc." if I'm not mistaken.
- est 2y ago> Labor is very expensive here Sandy Munro said labor counts 10%~15% of the cost. It's the labor efficiency that matters.
- toast0 2y ago> BUILDS A DOMESTIC FULL EV MINIVAN FFS Well there's the VW, but it's not domestic (built in Germany). The minivan segment is shrinking again though. Sales have been dropping and most of the work van models from established companies have been cancelled. Could be room for a new entrant to make a van that people want to buy?
- CalRobert 2y agoAny thoughts on the vw id van? I was looking at one before we moved somewhere we don’t need a car
- petre 2y agoToo much hype around it. It's a subpar van experience as in not quite practical, but an ok family car, drives very nicely. See: https://www.topgear.com/long-term-car-reviews/volkswagen/id-buzz/report-6 https://www.topgear.com/long-term-car-reviews/volkswagen/id-...
- tomcam 2y agoDo you think those cheap decent EVs would pass US safety test testing?
- dalyons 2y agoYes. They pass euro and others so why not. Have you even looked?
- ryuno_k 2y agoRead this article: https://www.zhihu.com/question/639536083/answer/3542708279 https://www.zhihu.com/question/639536083/answer/3542708279 Then you would find out how reliable these Chinese EV is
- Freedom2 2y agoDo they pass American? As far as I'm aware, American safety standards are of the highest in the world, in part due to the amount of reckless driving here and general lack of road-sense.
- prmoustache 2y agoThe cybertruck being sold only in the USA is a proof it is quite the opposite actually.
- dalyons 2y agoThis sounds like something you think should be true because it’s “just so”, but I don’t see any evidence that it actually is. NCAP seems quite strict, perhaps more than NHTSA
- tomcam 2y agoOnly one I could find was this: https://www.nhtsa.gov/vehicle/2017/BYD/K11%20M https://www.nhtsa.gov/vehicle/2017/BYD/K11%20M Am I looking in the wrong place?
- whynotmaybe 2y agoEasily as they are already 5 stars on the euro ncap. https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/byd/seal/50012 https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/byd/seal/50012
- srockets 2y agoSome Chinese auto manufactures are pretty good, but a lot are startups in the worst sense of the term: a couple of months from shutting down. Cars are not disposable, so you kinda want a 15-years of support. Which isn’t just the brand keeping the lights on, it’s a whole service infrastructure. That’s where Tesla fails, and where a lot of Chinese manufacturers fail: they don’t build one. In that, they aren’t very different than Tesla.
- papa_bear 2y agoI was under the impression that Tesla has put a lot of effort into building out support infrastructure? My perception is a bit clouded by the fact that I live a few miles from a service center.
- srockets 2y agoTry to get spare parts for teslas. Or fix them at a non-Tesla owned shop. Both are 100x more complex and expensive than any other mass produced car made in the last decade 20 years. And it is like that by design: it was never a priority for them.
- thebruce87m 2y ago> That’s where Tesla fails What do you mean by this? I get more support from Tesla than any other car I’ve had. Bug fixes, new features, all OTA. In terms of service infrastructure, I can open a ticket from my phone, chat with a service person and have an appointment booked. They will even send someone out to the car to fix any issues. I had my window realigned and never even interacted physically with the person.
- prmoustache 2y ago> never even interacted physically with the person. Note that some people would not view that as a plus. Not an owner myself but I get service and experience might differ greatly depending on country.
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- nextworddev 2y agoIt's called dumping EVs with state subsidies to hollow out automobile industries in the west and Japan. No thanks.
- presentation 2y agoOnly because the west and Japan are failing to subsidize their own industries. This is called competition. Yes please.
- FooBarWidget 2y agoBesides, reducing all of these achievements in EV technology to mere "subsidies" is being willfully blind. CEOs of incumbent car makers have been communicating for some time now how competitors such as BYD have a real technological edge thanks to research, innovation and having painstakingly built large, comprehensive and efficient supply chains. Subsidies are somewhat involved but not that much, especially considering that (1) subsidies are declining, (2) EU and US also subsidize. Have people ever looked at EV tax breaks in the Netherlands, or more in general tax breaks for any sort of R&D work (WBSO)? Nobody ever complained about that. Cars such as by BYD are already profitable even without subsidies. That's why subsidies are declining. One really has to ask oneself: if we subsidize incumbent automakers, are they really going to achieve the same level of competitiveness and innovation? Or will they just use it to launder more profits for shareholders? Be honest.
- tooltalk 2y agoIt's not just mere "subsidies," there is also blatant protectionism. CEOs of incumbents car makers have been warning against the Chinese gov't unsavory anti-market practices to protect their local battery companies and achieve market dominance past 10 years, such as: 1. Power Play: How China-Owned Volvo Avoids Beijing’s Battery Rules Car maker is allowed to use high-end foreign technology, while rivals are squeezed into buying local, Trefor Moss, May 17, 2018, the Wall Street Journal ... China requires auto makers to use batteries from one of its approved suppliers if they want to be cleared to mass-produce electric cars and plug-in hybrids and to qualify for subsidies. These suppliers are all Chinese, so such global leaders as South Korea’s LG Chem Ltd and Japan’s Panasonic Corp. are excluded. ... Foreign batteries aren’t officially banned in China, but auto executives say that since 2016 they have been warned by government officials that they must use Chinese batteries in their China-built cars, or face repercussions. That has forced them to spend millions of dollars to redesign cars to work with inferior Chinese batteries, they say. ... “We want to comply, and we have to comply,” said one executive with a foreign car maker. “There’s no other option.” 2. Why a Chinese Company Dominates Electric Car Batteries, Beijing gave CATL lavish subsidies, a captive market of buyers and soft regulatory treatment, helping it to control a crucial technology of the future. Keith Bradsher and Michael Forsythe, Dec. 22, 2021, The NYTimes 3. The Key to Electric Cars Is Batteries. One Chinese Firm Dominates the Industry. Beijing built the world’s largest EV market, then pressured foreign car makers to use its batteries, Trefor Moss, Nov. 3, 2019, WSJ ... China is by far the biggest EV market, and to boost its standing in the fast-growing industry, China began pressuring foreign auto makers to use locally-made batteries ... Auto makers weren’t pleased, but they fell in line. During a visit to CATL headquarters in 2017, three Daimler AG executives displayed their irritation shortly after the meeting started, recalled Jiang Lingfeng, then a CATL project manager who prepared a technical briefing for the visitors. One Daimler executive cut off his briefing, said Mr. Jiang. “We’re not interested,” the executive said, according to Mr. Jiang. “The only reason we’re here is that we have no choice, so let’s just talk about the price.” ... Still, auto makers bridled at CATL’s dominance, according to Mr. Tsao, the former supply-chain manager there. CATL’s batteries also cost 25% more than those of leading rivals because the company was still learning to mass-produce cost-effectively, he said. “The price is high, and the service is slow,” he said, summing up CATL’s proposition to auto maker clients. ... “What the government did was a good thing for China,” said Mr. Jiang, the former CATL project manager. “Without its restrictions, I don’t think CATL would ever have been successful.” Let's not forget that the EU also followed up with a WTO complaint against China for their NEV regulation that forced tech transfer (see WT/DS549) in 2018, and waited over 6 years to take a countervailing measure (2024/1866) against prohibited subsidies practices.
- prmoustache 2y agoFWIW the Dacia Spring is cheaper than the Byd Dolphin. The Opel Corsa and Astra and its Peugeot and Citroen counterpart seem decent and don't have any equivalent in the Byd Lineup, especially the wagon version (Astra Sports Tourer) which I could totally drive.
- kvanlier 2y agoDacia Sprong is also built in China by Dongfeng. Locally (China), it’s called the Dongfeng Nano Box. It's a great value car.
- tarsinge 2y agoThat’s the narrative I keep reading but meanwhile here in Europe the only BYD (and Chinese) EV models that are sold are luxury ones, mostly SUV. Where are these all these cheap decent Chinese EVs the market is supposed to be flooded with? Also specifically where are affordable family cars? Seems Chinese are following the same playbook as other legacy manufacturers: you want a family car? That’s gonna be a SUV. Oh sorry you want non ridiculous cargo space? That means our biggest luxury SUV at 70k€ (that has the cargo space of a cheap small minivan from the 2000s).
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- mensetmanusman 2y agoIt has to do with vast state subsidies allowing the supply chain in China to sell below materials cost. They are in a pickle now because of the pull the rug the whole thing might collapse.