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The EU is number one in quality of life and that’s all that matters to me. If we work just hard enough to maintain and maybe even improve it, other countries ca

The EU is number one in quality of life and that’s all that matters to me. If we work just hard enough to maintain and maybe even improve it, other countries can do their pissing contest.

ragebol 2y ago
Quality of life costs money, and if we're not competitive, sooner or later that money will run out.
- Cumpiler69 2y ago
  It's crazy how so many people don't get this basic economic fact and think public welfare in EU just rains from the sky for free. No, EU welfare state is not some magical hack nobody else thought of, it's just paid from the working class' wages and then redistributed to those in need. Without innovations and highly profitable industries generating well paying working class jobs, with what will you pay for that welfare and quality of life? Billionaires and corporations certainly aren't gonna pay for it out if their profits, so the working class has to. But if the working class has no more high paying wages anymore due to stagnating growth , then your welfare budget also goes bye-bye. You can't just vote yourself more welfare and higher public sector salaries and pensions out of thin air without an economic growth to back that up. I mean, you technically can, but it doesn't end well as was proven every single time this was tried.
  - kiba 2y ago
    Well paying job just mean that the primary distribution mechanism of wealth is through having a job, rather than only creating only jobs that are necessary. That's grossly inefficient. I rather pay people to stay at home rather than gunk up our industries with make-work, or worse actively making things worse. Innovation is important sure, but also efficient use of resources, including cramping down on negative externalities. That increases welfare and quality of life, ideally with no need to spend an extra dollar.
    - Cumpiler69 2y ago
      That's some idealistic stuff that's not gonna happen. The real world doesn't work like that. Yeah it's ineficient but it's the one we got right now. You're not gonna change it with your comments and beliefs. Meanwhile rent is due next month and you need to pay up by using these "ineficient" mechanisms set in place by powers higher than you.
      - kiba 2y ago
        Idealistic? So what? I am just pointing out the contradiction of people's thought. I perfectly know well it's not how things should work but how it works right now, but if people believed silly things I am going to point it out. You are welcome to point out flaws in my thinking.
    - AnimalMuppet 2y ago
      Stop thinking in terms of dollars. Think in terms of stuff - that's the actual wealth. You can move dollars around with or without jobs, but somebody has to make the stuff. Someone has to grow the food. Otherwise, you have dollars but not food, and you can't eat dollars. So the thing about jobs is, we really need jobs that actually produce stuff. We don't just need jobs, we need somebody to create the wealth. First it has to exist, then we can worry about how it gets distributed. So if you have a bunch of people who are not necessary, then the best thing to do is not to let them starve (which is also immoral), nor to give them pointless jobs (which is soul-destroying), but to find something useful for them to do.
      - bluecheese452 2y ago
        We have had the capacity to produce more stuff than we can consume for almost a century now. Take cars for example. We could easily produce one for every man woman and child. If someone can’t afford a car it isn’t because we can’t make it, it is because we have decided not to make it. This isn’t a production problem, it is a social problem.
        2y ago
  - sofixa 2y ago
    > Without innovations and highly profitable industries generating well paying working class jobs, with what will you pay for that welfare and quality of life I don't think anyone is seriously claiming that there is no innovation whatsoever in the EU. Falling behind the US doesn't mean there is absolutely nothing. I think a lot of people in the EU would be fine with being 3rd on "productivity" if it was enough to maintain a high standard of living and decent competitiveness.
    - Cumpiler69 2y ago
      >I don't think anyone is seriously claiming that there is no innovation whatsoever in the EU. I never said that. Please follow HN rules and reply to the strongest interpretation of one's argument, not the weakest. The EU economy was at the same level as the US economy 15-20 years ago., now it's only half the US. The EU missed out on all the major technological innovations in that time and therefore missed out on a lot of income for welfare while welfare expenses only grew due to ageing population and increasing cost of living. >Falling behind the US doesn't mean there is absolutely nothing. No, it means less money for welfare. Especially with an ever increasing ageing population. If you want to take care of all of those people at a high quality of life, it's gonna cost you, and we don't have that kind of money anymore. So you either get Europeans to accept slowly sliding into poverty due to declining welfare and rising CoL, OR, you need to bring in more money to the state somehow. Previously it was done in Europe via slavery and theft through colonialism, but since that conveyor belt of free money is gone and what's left to bring in more money is innovation in highly profitable high-growth industries where EU is almost absent. No, ASML, Airbus and some struggling German mittlestand companies can't support a whole continent like they did in the 1980's. >I think a lot of people in the EU would be fine with being 3rd on "productivity" if it was enough to maintain a high standard of living and decent competitiveness. They would be fine, if those losses would come out of the pockets of tax dodging corporations, but they're not, they're being eaten up by the working class and the taxpayer who still expects the same welfare quality like in the good ol' days when the EU economy was as strong as the US. Do you you see how this level of welfare is unsustainable without matching economic growth?
      - 2y ago
  - criddell 2y ago
    > I mean, you technically can, but it doesn't end well as was proven every single time this was tried. Arguably, Japan has been doing this for two or three generations now. Despite a crazy debt, quality of life in Japan is still pretty great.
    - CapricornNoble 2y ago
      There's a saying in economics: "There are four types of economies: developed, developing, Argentina, and Japan." One must be very careful drawing conclusions for other societies based on Japan as a sole example. I somewhat agree that Japan illustrates that massive infrastructure investment, combined with diligence in maintaining functioning societal systems, does in fact yield a high quality of life that appears sustainable even if the metrics of economic growth look terrible. That's because GDP as a measure of "quality of life" is a shitty indicator IMO, but that's a whole 'nother rabbit hole to go down...
    - Workaccount2 2y ago
      Japan is a monoculture that acts almost like one big family. Economic rules and values kinda go out the window similar to the way they do when you are selling your brother your old car or repairing your grandmother's sink.
    - handzhiev 2y ago
      Everyone who has been to Japan in the last 20 years or so could argue about the quality of life. Japan is not quite "shiny" and people are not rich.
  - ta1243 2y ago
    > It's crazy how so many people don't get this basic economic fact and think public welfare in EU just rains from the sky for free. No, EU welfare state is not some magical hack nobody else thought of, it's just paid from the working class' wages and then redistributed to those in need. If the US took the entire medicare/medicaid budget and split it evenly per person it would be left with more money than the UK spends on healthcare. Its not just how much you spend, its how much you waste.
- kiba 2y ago
  Quality of life also doesn't cost money. Road infrastructure in the United States might as well be a form of digging holes and then refilling it back up again. Grossly inefficient when we could invest the infrastructure money into world class public transit.
  - wombatpm 2y ago
    I think you fail to grasp just how big the US is. Driving from Chicago to Minneapolis is ~430 miles/ 6.5 hours depending on weather and traffic. Every 10 miles or so there is an exit and usually some small town. Every 50 to 100 miles a bigger town. As I recall, after the Chicago suburbs you hit Rockford, Janesville, Madison, Baraboo, Tomah, Eau Claire, Menominee, and Hudson before you get to the St Paul collar communities. So 9 stops on on a single track running between two major cities, with only 1600 more miles to Seattle. And while the distance between stops increase, the population greatly decreases as you head west. Now road construction could be better. Because while Illinois has 300k lane-miles of road, it seems like they only have 200k of asphalt and 100k under construction at any given point in time.
    - Jensson 2y ago
      Scandinavia is sparser than USA and as large as the larger populated states, still has asphalted roads and public stuff even up north.
      - spiderfarmer 2y ago
        American exceptionalism at its finest.
      - jandrese 2y ago
        This is a bit misleading as those countries tend to have the vast majority of the population crowded into a handful of cities that are fairly close together and then a vast untamed wilderness where close to nobody lives. It's easy(ish) to have rail between Oslo and Bergen, less practical to extend that rail to Oldervik.
    - 2y ago
- torginus 2y ago
  I have had this niggling feeling for a long time that money (and capitalism) gets increasingly more divorced from reality, particularly as money is printed and these astronomic speculative stock market valuations are created based on some optimistic future scenario. This is not some pearl clutching moralistic argument, but a practical observation based on: - Transfer of ownership is not necessarily possible. You can't buy a technologically sensitive company because of regulations. Even if you can buy a foreign firm, transferring the talent, operational base etc. might not be possible. A CEO can't sell off his share of stocks even if they're worth billions because the loss of investor confidence. - Physical limitations on quantities of goods. There is a finite supply of real estate. If everybody in the world wanted a new car suddenly (and had money for it), car prices would go through the roof, and only a small fraction would actually get it. Imo capitalism is not flawed in the way that it is incapable of handling these situations, but it is very flawed in that money is an increasingly poor proxy for the abstract concept of value. This flawed nature of capitalism has been long since endemic (and dare I say integral) to the system, much more value has existed on paper than in reality (see banks), but I think there might be a breaking point at which the system might collapse and hyperinflation would set in.
  - Ferret7446 2y ago
    It is precisely because individuals suck so much at correctly perceiving the allocation of value that free market economies ("capitalism") completely blow centrally planned ones ("socialism") out of the water. So the fact that you think money is divorced from reality is a very normal, mundane misconception.
    - torginus 2y ago
      You're taking my argument in the direction I never intended, then taking the dicothomy to the extreme, and then claiming victory unsupported by evidence. - I never wanted to contrast 'capitalism' and 'communism' or whatever. I merely wanted to point out that the fundamental absurdity of capitalism requiring infinite growth in a finite system has been resolved by having the growth of wealth coming from speculation on future unrealized value. Since I (or anyone else) can't predict the future, it might happen that things do not come to pass as they were expected and that future value might not be realized. Money is divorced from reality, it derives its value from the collective trust and belief by the people participating in the system that it can be exchanged for goods and services. In a system of rational and impartial actors, that belief is backed by chiefly existence of said goods (which is the real size of the economic pie) and less by the speculation of future potential that might or or might not happen. So in summary my argument is not between communism or capitalism, but a captialism that is backed by real world value and one that is backed by future speculation. Even if the former can create less economic growth, we can be certain that growth is real. - Central planning works. Great public works certainly are dreamt up and funded by governments yet they contribute enormously to the wealth of nations and enable a lot of value to be created. The moon landing was centrally planned and executed by a country whose per capita wealth was on par with modern day Poland, yet is considered the greatest achivement in history. - There are no real 'centrally planned' or 'free market' economies, as all countries employ both concepts to some degree. But if we were to make a argument, we could say that the US belongs to the 'free market' camp and China belongs the 'centrally planned' camp. Both countries are doing extremely well, this very discussion is about finding which one is actually doing better.
- willtemperley 2y ago
  Exactly and the fact that, for example, West and Central Africa are waking up [1] to the fact that France has been scamming them out of untold billions, probably trillions is going to shift power significantly. This is happening now. Senegal are following Chad in cutting ties with French military. [1] https://theconversation.com/cfa-franc-conditions-are-ripe-for-replacement-of-the-west-african-currency-rooted-in-colonialism-expert-226969 https://theconversation.com/cfa-franc-conditions-are-ripe-fo...
  - willtemperley 2y ago
    Downvotes without comment are pathetic. Step up and make an argument. It's real, it's happening and Europe needs to wake up.
  - readthenotes1 2y ago
    Because of the travle game(1) I learned that it was/is common for the leader of the former French colony to send hundreds of thousands in bribes to the president of France... (1) Travle posted here on hn months ago, but unfortunately a Webapp that downloads so I can't give you a url
  - spiderfarmer 2y ago
    The economy is not a zero sum game. If other countries are doing well, all the better.
    - Cumpiler69 2y ago
      >The economy is not a zero sum game. Most parts of the global economy are. If you're selling cars for example, there's a fixed amount of drivers on the road you can sell cars to, so if you're VW, you're now competing with cheaper cars from Asia for those same drivers. You can't create new drivers out of thin air to expand the market demand for cars. Once the market is saturated, without having any moat, you enter in a race to the bottom. And that's what Germany's economy is discovering right now and why Europe's share of global GDP has been declining for the past 20 years.
- devjab 2y ago
  You are correct but it’s also more complex than that since competitive can mean many things. Currently the vast majority of government income for European countries is income tax, and income tax is usually more profitable when the market is actually competitive. Which means you need small local businesses and local production. Having completely optimised and global logistics and value chains isn’t necessarily good for wages. We can tax the wealthy and fortunes more than we do, and we probably should, but within the current systems it wouldn’t change that much. So in some sense many European countries are better prepared for economic downturns than the US even though European countries don’t have a lot of major corporations which don’t produce anything locally. Obviously it’s even more complex than this. Part of what is bringing down the economies in France and Italy is workers rights. Being able to retire at 60 is great, but it was also something that was obtained when people didn’t live as long and have as few children. Though Greece seems to have managed ok without having new public management plunder their country.
  - Workaccount2 2y ago
    >Being able to retire at 60 is great, but it was also something that was obtained when people didn’t live as long and have as few children. Short aside this reminds me of: In the US, my Boss's neighbor is an 85 year old woman who retired 42 years ago. And still gets a paycheck twice a month (with CoL increases) and full health insurance. She became a municipal clerk when she turned 18, worked 25 years to get a full pension, then retired at 43. The optimism (maybe pessimism?) people had back in the day was wild. I nearly fell out of my chair when he told me this.
egeozcan 2y ago
Life in the EU is amazing for me, and probably for you too, as well as many others enjoying it here. However, we can't overlook the struggles of those who are turning to radical populist parties.
- dachworker 2y ago
  I don't think the far-right is fueled by economic stagnation, but I do think that, were we living in an economic golden age, people would be able to ignore and excuse the increased prevalence of foreigners on "their" streets.
  - decremental 2y ago
    [dead]
  - Cumpiler69 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - stogot 2y ago
      Well said. Better than I could put into words
      - aguaviva 2y ago
        No, it's just an inspid rant. Let's pick a spot at random: But at the same time the state somehow has money to house feed and medically care of millions of illegal immigrants Do you honestly think the government is literally simply "housing" all the authorized immigrants? As in, literally writing checks to their landlords? And literally paying their grocery bills, each and every week? Do you actually think that's what's happening? Remember, the rant wasn't referring simply to new arrivals, but literally to all the "millions" who have been here for decades. With the tacit approval of US society at large, for the simple reason that (authorized or not) the vast majority form an indispensible part of its workforce, doing the hard work that most Americans refuse to do. I'm not saying the migrant crisis isn't a huge, costly mess. But for whatever is happening, I just don't get these weird, distorted and emotionally manipulative narratives.
zpeti 2y ago
Which country? This matters a lot. I doubt you are in Greece, or Italy, or Portugal. Did you know on GBP PPP Warsaw and Budapest are now better places to live than Madrid, Lisbon and many other Mediterranean cities? It’s crazy. Perhaps Berlin and Copenhagen are still ok, but even France is on a completely unsustainable path that will explode in the next 10-20 years.
dachworker 2y ago
Where does this notion come from? Many Europeans cannot even afford proper AC in summer and heating in winter.
- Jensson 2y ago
  Of course they can afford it, its just a cultural difference. > Many Europeans cannot even afford proper AC in summer and heating in winter. Basically nobody lacks heating in winter, that one is made up. The thing people lack is AC and its just because people aren't used to it so they don't see it as a need. Edit: Saying this is like saying people can't afford shelter in USA, it is true and there are many homeless but it describes a tiny fraction.
  - matwood 2y ago
    And a lot of people in the northern US also don’t have AC. It just wasn’t necessary until somewhat recently. Had little to do with affordability.
  - bluGill 2y ago
    Many Europeans have a mild climate where the few days AC is really better than no AC isn't enough to be worth it. Particularly if you stick to western Europe when you mean Europe, (eastern Europe has a harsher climate but also still coming out from soviet days and so doesn't have the wealth needed to put AC everywhere though some are getting close)
  - rootusrootus 2y ago
    > The thing people lack is AC and its just because people aren't used to it so they don't see it as a need. I suspect it's just that Europe is mostly north of the US and AC is more luxury than necessity. Places in the US like Seattle, which is still south of much of Europe, only recently rose above 50% AC prevalence. It's become much more popular as the climate as grown warmer.
  - mbs159 2y ago
    > Many Europeans cannot even afford proper AC in summer and heating in winter. A lot of people don't need AC, and heating is a non-issue almost everywhere.
mytailorisrich 2y ago
Quality of life is the result of economic prosperity. If the economy falls behind then quality of life will follow at some point. In fact quality of life is already not so great and decreasing.
- Cumpiler69 2y ago
  >If the economy falls behind then quality of life will follow at some point. If only Europeans would accept this truth and wake up that something has to change yesterday. What's happening to Greece is just the mining canary for what's gonna happen in much of the rest of EU later, if there's no preventive change of course.
- bluGill 2y ago
  Only partially true though. A rising tide can lift all ships. The EU can benefit from advancements in the US invests in because of our wealth. This goes the other way as well, even thought he EU isn't putting out as much, they are putting out something and that benefits the US. So long as they don't fall so far behind that it isn't worth trying to bring them up - but this is unlikely, I'm not even sure how this could happen.
  - mytailorisrich 2y ago
    No it's not "partially" true. Noone claims that people in the third world enjoy great quality of life, for instance. You can't benefit from the advancements of others if you cannot afford them... > I'm not even sure how this could happen. It can always happen but it is gradual and takes time. Places like India or China were once the richest areas of the world, only to fall behind and become among the poorest later on because they stagnated while others progressed.
    - bluGill 2y ago
      That is why it is partially true. There are many other factors as to great quality of life. If you have all those other factors as well then a rising tide can life your boat too. Some third world countries have seen this over the years, and others are seeing it now. Some have seen it and then something (often a coup) reverted them to bad quality of life.
ms30 2y ago
Declining/Aging Population becomes the issue. Solutions will probably come from Biology/Nature. Human Quality of life seems to flip the natural "evolutionary script" wrt to population growth. Shrinking population = shrinking landlords/bankers/labor/traders/military/scientists etc In nature, where there is environmental instability/resource scarcity you see a Quantity over Quality reproductive survival strategy (which is similar to what we see poorer regions of the world) that fuels population growth. On the flip side, where there is resource abundance and stability there is growth in population. But we don't see that happening in the richer/higher developed regions with humans. Its like advanced human society/culture has worked out how to override biology. We currently work around falling population(and the shrinking factors of production) with tech/automation, financial/military arm twisting and immigration which gives rise its own social and cultural instability. Nature has found other population models though. Ants(Eusocial insects) have solved their population/survival issues by have a single Baby factory. There are theories that the Haplodiploidy it produces makes ant societies function smoother. While Meerkats have collective breeding model which is similar to what certain Feminists talk about when they say Make Kin not Babies. It will take a couple generations of futzing about in unnecessary directions before we solve these issues. So patience with the people who don't know what they are doing is key.
- benterix 2y ago
  I tend to agree to a certain extent. From my observation it seems that a certain amount of suffering in life creates strong motivation for overcoming it. If you just have a very happy life you don't have that strong motivation to change things.
  - Cumpiler69 2y ago
    >If you just have a very happy life you don't have that strong motivation to change things. Or you see no way out, feel defeated and see that positive change is impossible or futile. It cuts both ways. Inaction doesn't always mean a rosy life.
    - benterix 2y ago
JohnFen 2y ago
As a US citizen, I look with envy on the quality of life in many EU countries.
- nickpp 2y ago
  You can look closer, if you want. The EU is cheaper and cheaper for the American tourists. And please make sure to visit some of the Eastern European countries, like Romania or Bulgaria too. They are part of the EU as well.
- matwood 2y ago
  As has I’ve heard said, the best place to make money is the US and the best place to spend money is the EU. If you believe this is the case as I do, the next step is to figure out how to lifestyle arbitrage. Make US wages while living in the EU. I’m older with bit more freedom than when I just started out, but this is exactly what I’m doing. My plan is to eventually quasi retire to the house I’m currently renovating.
- rootusrootus 2y ago
  I love living in the US and visiting the EU. For me, that seems to be the very best arrangement. Early on, I was infatuated with the perceived better quality of life in the EU, but I see now that I could not easily create something comparable to what I enjoy in the US unless I was an elite member of EU society. My guess is that this is true for the majority of US residents on HN.
RestlessMind 2y ago
> The EU is number one in quality of life and that’s all that matters to me Probably it is time for you to learn the plight of fellow Europeans then. The society is stewing for quite some time now, for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_vests_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_vests_protests The symbol has become "a unifying thread and call to arms" as yellow vests are common and inexpensive, easy to wear over any clothing, are associated with working-class industries, highly noticeable, and widely understood as a distress signal. Rise of far right parties across Italy, Germany, Hungary, Poland, France and many other countries is another clear signal that EU's quality of life may not be great for everyone there.
- spiderfarmer 2y ago
  Being number one doesn't say it's good for everyone here. It says more about how bad it is in the rest of the world. Also, here in The Netherlands the yellow vests were mostly conspiracy theorists who would pull something to protest against out of thin air. That movement died down pretty quickly. Protests here are almost always against (perceived) government overreach. In most countries even being able to protest is considered a luxury. That's why you don't see that many in the US.
  - ashoeafoot 2y ago
    The idea that conspiracies could thrive under economic stress doesn't even occur..
    - WhatIsDukkha 2y ago
      Well being loopy isn't too good for economic success so that's a factor? Though for sure I've met some incredibly loopy people that had some great dice roll streaks. But there are a lot of other factors in the problem and making it an economic issue really obscures some of the more important factors. Intellectual laziness, idle brains, idle hands, toxic memes and bad actors making bad use of them.
      - 2y ago
NeinMiez 2y ago
[dead]
loxodrome 2y ago
I’m an American living in France for the past two years and cannot wait to move back to the USA. The taxes are so extreme and salaries so low that no one can even invest in the stock market. If I stay here, I will be able to leave virtually nothing to my kids when I die. The EU can take its 5 weeks of vacation and go fuck itself.
- ein0p 2y ago
  Have you seen the steep exponent on the US debt? You won't be able to leave anything to your kids if you move to the US either. Might as well enjoy 2 weeks vacation, rather than 2.
- fennecfoxy 2y ago
  Instead, you'd rather spend all of that money on healthcare in the US and still have nothing left behind. What's the point of inheriting a life in a corporate hellscape (presuming you live in a tech city).
- gchamonlive 2y ago
  [flagged]
- sho_hn 2y ago
  On the other hand, it's absolutely fantastic to have a young daughter and have her virtually not impact our finances at all for many years, between clothes/toy gifts from friends, gov subsidy, free healthcare, free education and low levels of keeping-up-with-the-Joneses on after-school activities, plus knowing I won't burden her financially either as I happily live out my retirement on a decent pension. I may not leave her a lot of inherited wealth, but she may also not really need any to have options. (That said, my personal frame of reference for why this is better and wonderfully stress-free is years lived in South Korea--that ultra-low fertility rate has reasons--, not so much the US.)
  - fakedang 2y ago
    At the current trajectory of the EU though, don't count on it. She will regret you guys not having built up an inheritance for her, considering that EU tier 1 and tier 2 towns and cities are being rapidly bought up by American private equity.
asdasdsddd 2y ago
That's what the chinese thought in the 18th century :). A fun quote for the europeans here: "Our land is so wealthy and prosperous that we possess all things. Therefore, there is no need to exchange the produce of foreign barbarians for our own." - The emperor at the height of Qing China
- asah 2y ago
  This was in fact so true that the Brits forced the matter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_Wars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_Wars
  - anon291 2y ago
    If your lesson from history is that hubris works, then that's very interesting.
  - Der_Einzige 2y ago
    Ironically, the most drug liberal places in the world, i.e. Silicon Valley, are the source of what this article talks about, productivity gains! You just need the right drugs, in this case, Psychedelics.
  - trhway 2y ago
    That is the point - the Brits were able to force the matter. If you aren't up-to-date on technology, specifically military tech, you're going to have matters like this forced upon you. Que the Ukraine giving up the nukes (and later getting rid of even non-nuclear missiles).
  - marcosdumay 2y ago
    There are a few centuries and a lot of decline between those.
- DiogenesKynikos 2y ago
  The Emperor is not necessarily the guy to go to for the man-in-the-street view from China.
bjourne 2y ago
Though it has very much decreased in recent years due to rampant inflation. My real wage has decreased since increases have been lower than inflation. For unemployed and low earners it is even worse.
deleted 2y ago
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voidfunc 2y ago
Enjoy it while it lasts, your social programs are a gift from the US historically subsidizing your defense.
- quonn 2y ago
  This always went both ways with the EU providing a market. When the US stops to provide defense, watch and see the EU reaction, starting with all things digital.
  - anon291 2y ago
    As India and China both produce solid middle classes demanding American products, this will matter less and less. We're already seeing this on the West Coast of America (what I know) where Asian and Indian cultures are gaining more and more influence.
    - quonn 2y ago
      It will not matter less and less because China can and will satisfy that demand themselves without relying on American products. So far the US exports about half as much to China compared to the exports to the EU (2022). And it will likely export less to China in the future. India is not even close to replacing the huge European middle class and even if it were it has proven to be a highly unreliable partner. And so far the US exports to India are not even 15% of what is exported to the EU (2022). The EU middle class comprises around 280 million people. Almost as many as the whole US population. And it is culturally and politically aligned with the US to a large extent. It‘s a huge market to loose. Nobody would drop 15-20% of their exports to try to save 5% of their defense budget all while loosing influence and power.
  - 0xDEAFBEAD 2y ago
    The US is also a market for EU products. To reverse roles in your argument: Imagine if the US put sanctions on EU companies because EU militaries aren't doing enough to help the US fight cartels in Mexico. Seem reasonable?
naming_the_user 2y ago
This feels like a huge generalization to me. The US, UK, EU and realistically most developed countries I would say have fairly similar quality of life within margin of error. I've travelled a fair amount and everywhere is basically the same. For an individual it's really going to come down to lifestyle and what you prefer. Some people like urban living and walkability, if that's you then you probably want Japan or old world metropolitan European cities. Some people want a house on a few acres and national parks the size of countries, if that's you then you probably want the US. Working cultures are different but then there is no average on that either. People on HN tend to assume everyone is an office worker or something which is actually a fairly narrow slice of the middle of the spectrum. Equally though, online (you can see it in this thread) there's sometimes a weird focus on the absolute worst outcomes which I've always found baffling. If you're planning to become a poor fentanyl addict then yeah, don't go to the US, find a country with a safety net, it'll be more fun.
- amrocha 2y ago
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  - lordloki 2y ago
    I can understand this perspective if you've never been here and base it all on what you read online.
    - amrocha 2y ago
      I lived in Canada for 12 years and regularly visited the US for pleasure and work.
      - signatoremo 2y ago
        Versus people who live in the US in this thread who told you otherwise?
        2y ago
jandrewrogers 2y ago
The higher quality-of-life was likely true at one time but I think it is quite arguable now in much of Europe. There is a palpable sense of decline that weighs too heavily on everything. How "quality" is a life without meaningful optimism for the future? It is the quality-of-life of a pensioner waiting for the graveyard. An underrated benefit of the markedly higher standard of living in the US is that people can choose to trade standard of living for quality of life if they wish. American culture seems to preference maxing standard of living but that is optional, and there are plenty of people that make other choices.
- amrocha 2y ago
  How is the “standard of living” in the US in any way higher than europe?
  - jibe 2y ago
    Air conditioning
    - amrocha 2y ago
      You can just buy an AC in Europe, most of the time you don’t need it though
  - Workaccount2 2y ago
    The US has wealth disparity, not lack of wealth. The US is an incredible place to live if you have valuable skills, and a below average place to live if you don't.
    - amrocha 2y ago
      [flagged]
YetAnotherNick 2y ago
Even within EU there is a clear correlation between economy and quality of life between countries. While yes more social policy improves quality of life, it can't compensate if the economy difference is too high.
cynicalsecurity 2y ago
This quality of life can disappear in a matter of seconds. EU is still not actively working on protecting itself from the Russian threat. The moment Russia attacks which is going to happen since this is what the fascist Russian dictatorship wants, we could kiss our quality of life goodbye.
fakedang 2y ago
The EU could be a powerful neutral third block, focused on providing the best for its citizens, but for that they would have to keep up economically. The EU is currently a massive laggard, worse than China in a lot of metrics, yet having dalliances with some levels of Chinese authoritarianism. Not to mention the current unsustainable state of its welfare state.
rdm_blackhole 2y ago
You forgot to mention that this quality of life is bought with debt and deficits that have been running for the last 30 years. Look at what's happening in France for proof that this is just not sustainable. The US has a massive advantage tough,their currency is the global currency accepted and needed everywhere that is backed by the US army. Much less so the Euro. The cost of all these social programs has to come from somewhere and currently the majority of these costs are shouldered by the middle class that is being squeezed to the max and speaking as someone from the middle class, I can assure you that having a couple of extra weeks of holiday and more job safety (if you are into that sort of thing) is not worth 55% to 65% of my gross income. Even universal healthcare is crumbling now. At some point the EU will need to get it's productivity up and become competitive once again or all this quality of life will have to go as it won't be financially possible to continue on this path.
eikenberry 2y ago
This is assuming nation-state conquests are out of the picture.
roncesvalles 2y ago
>The EU is number one in quality of life I feel like this is only the case for a very narrow demographic - the young, bicycle-riding, sex-having mid-20s college grad still trying to figure out their calling in life while living frugally without a care. It really sucks being 40 and still earning like 57k EUR or whatever.
- ragazzina 2y ago
  >It really sucks being 40 and still earning like 57k EUR or whatever. Is this a joke? 60k in France means you earn more than 92% of the population. 60k in Italy means you earn more than 96% of the population. 60k in Germany means you earn more than 80% of the population.
  - roncesvalles 2y ago
    Without challenging the veracity of your statements (which sound implausible if you narrow it down to working age population not in education and working a full-time permanent job), so what? There is no rule that life should only suck for a minority of people and that most people are happy. It may well be that the 90% of people earning <60k EUR live generally miserable lives, and for the top 10%, "the EU is number one" and they post about it on Hacker News.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- sofixa 2y ago
  > It really sucks being 40 and still earning like 57k EUR or whatever. Why? If that's enough money for the quality of life you want for the cost of living you have, what does the number matter?
mmmBacon 2y ago
Given European demographics and the changing political landscape, it's hard to imagine that the quality of life in Europe can remain as it was through the 1990-2010's. Additionally, many European cities are essentially museums, riding on what was built centuries ago, with little innovation. If you don't believe this, just go to a German city that was completely destroyed during the war. I'd imagine that Europe is at or near the peak in terms of its quality of life. At least some of the European lifestyle has been due to peace on the Continent. Up until now peace in Europe has been funded by US taxpayers. The situation in Georgia and in Ukraine is what you get when European affairs are left to Europeans. Without the US providing military aid to Ukraine, Ukraine would have fallen and you'd have Putin banging on your back door. Additionally, the EU's inability to supply Ukraine with basic military equipment such as artillery shells is indicative of how Europe is devoid of industrial capacity and couldn't rally in its own defense if it had to.
- 71bw 2y ago
  >The situation in Georgia and in Ukraine is what you get when European affairs are left to Europeans. What are you smoking? >Additionally, the EU's inability to supply Ukraine with basic military equipment such as artillery shells is indicative of how Europe is devoid of industrial capacity and couldn't rally in its own defense if it had to. https://www.president.pl/storage/image/core_files/2024/11/12/998e369f0515f1c03cb0b22ee79ed9be/jpg/prezydent/preview/EN%20czolgi%20logo%20popr.jpg https://www.president.pl/storage/image/core_files/2024/11/12...
  - mmmBacon 2y ago
    To your country's credit Poland is punching above its weight relative to the rest of the deadbeats but I wasn't talking about tanks. However, you've sent 240 T-72 Soviet era tanks to Ukraine and ~12 Leopard tanks. I was talking basic equipment like: 155mm artillery shells. In that case, unfortunately, the facts are not on your side. The majority of 155mm shells that are sent to Ukraine come from the US. The US has increased production of 155mm shells 6x this year alone. The same is true for body armor and small arms. Europe cannot ramp production in almost any category. Then there's this. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1364467/ukraine-weapon-deliveries-value-by-country/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1364467/ukraine-weapon-d...
clarionbell 2y ago
The reason for that is that we have offloaded defense to americans and have century of accumulated capital (legacy of colonialism) to spend. How long do you think it's going to last? Even Brussels is getting concerned and that's telling.

The EU is number one in quality of life and that’s all that matters to me. If we work just hard enough to maintain and maybe even improve it, other countries can do their pissing contest.

ragebol 2y ago

Quality of life costs money, and if we're not competitive, sooner or later that money will run out.

Cumpiler69 2y ago
It's crazy how so many people don't get this basic economic fact and think public welfare in EU just rains from the sky for free. No, EU welfare state is not some magical hack nobody else thought of, it's just paid from the working class' wages and then redistributed to those in need. Without innovations and highly profitable industries generating well paying working class jobs, with what will you pay for that welfare and quality of life? Billionaires and corporations certainly aren't gonna pay for it out if their profits, so the working class has to. But if the working class has no more high paying wages anymore due to stagnating growth , then your welfare budget also goes bye-bye. You can't just vote yourself more welfare and higher public sector salaries and pensions out of thin air without an economic growth to back that up. I mean, you technically can, but it doesn't end well as was proven every single time this was tried.
- kiba 2y ago
  Well paying job just mean that the primary distribution mechanism of wealth is through having a job, rather than only creating only jobs that are necessary. That's grossly inefficient. I rather pay people to stay at home rather than gunk up our industries with make-work, or worse actively making things worse. Innovation is important sure, but also efficient use of resources, including cramping down on negative externalities. That increases welfare and quality of life, ideally with no need to spend an extra dollar.
  - Cumpiler69 2y ago
    That's some idealistic stuff that's not gonna happen. The real world doesn't work like that. Yeah it's ineficient but it's the one we got right now. You're not gonna change it with your comments and beliefs. Meanwhile rent is due next month and you need to pay up by using these "ineficient" mechanisms set in place by powers higher than you.
    - kiba 2y ago
      Idealistic? So what? I am just pointing out the contradiction of people's thought. I perfectly know well it's not how things should work but how it works right now, but if people believed silly things I am going to point it out. You are welcome to point out flaws in my thinking.
  - AnimalMuppet 2y ago
    Stop thinking in terms of dollars. Think in terms of stuff - that's the actual wealth. You can move dollars around with or without jobs, but somebody has to make the stuff. Someone has to grow the food. Otherwise, you have dollars but not food, and you can't eat dollars. So the thing about jobs is, we really need jobs that actually produce stuff. We don't just need jobs, we need somebody to create the wealth. First it has to exist, then we can worry about how it gets distributed. So if you have a bunch of people who are not necessary, then the best thing to do is not to let them starve (which is also immoral), nor to give them pointless jobs (which is soul-destroying), but to find something useful for them to do.
    - bluecheese452 2y ago
      We have had the capacity to produce more stuff than we can consume for almost a century now. Take cars for example. We could easily produce one for every man woman and child. If someone can’t afford a car it isn’t because we can’t make it, it is because we have decided not to make it. This isn’t a production problem, it is a social problem.
      - 2y ago
- sofixa 2y ago
  > Without innovations and highly profitable industries generating well paying working class jobs, with what will you pay for that welfare and quality of life I don't think anyone is seriously claiming that there is no innovation whatsoever in the EU. Falling behind the US doesn't mean there is absolutely nothing. I think a lot of people in the EU would be fine with being 3rd on "productivity" if it was enough to maintain a high standard of living and decent competitiveness.
  - Cumpiler69 2y ago
    >I don't think anyone is seriously claiming that there is no innovation whatsoever in the EU. I never said that. Please follow HN rules and reply to the strongest interpretation of one's argument, not the weakest. The EU economy was at the same level as the US economy 15-20 years ago., now it's only half the US. The EU missed out on all the major technological innovations in that time and therefore missed out on a lot of income for welfare while welfare expenses only grew due to ageing population and increasing cost of living. >Falling behind the US doesn't mean there is absolutely nothing. No, it means less money for welfare. Especially with an ever increasing ageing population. If you want to take care of all of those people at a high quality of life, it's gonna cost you, and we don't have that kind of money anymore. So you either get Europeans to accept slowly sliding into poverty due to declining welfare and rising CoL, OR, you need to bring in more money to the state somehow. Previously it was done in Europe via slavery and theft through colonialism, but since that conveyor belt of free money is gone and what's left to bring in more money is innovation in highly profitable high-growth industries where EU is almost absent. No, ASML, Airbus and some struggling German mittlestand companies can't support a whole continent like they did in the 1980's. >I think a lot of people in the EU would be fine with being 3rd on "productivity" if it was enough to maintain a high standard of living and decent competitiveness. They would be fine, if those losses would come out of the pockets of tax dodging corporations, but they're not, they're being eaten up by the working class and the taxpayer who still expects the same welfare quality like in the good ol' days when the EU economy was as strong as the US. Do you you see how this level of welfare is unsustainable without matching economic growth?
    - 2y ago
- criddell 2y ago
  > I mean, you technically can, but it doesn't end well as was proven every single time this was tried. Arguably, Japan has been doing this for two or three generations now. Despite a crazy debt, quality of life in Japan is still pretty great.
  - CapricornNoble 2y ago
    There's a saying in economics: "There are four types of economies: developed, developing, Argentina, and Japan." One must be very careful drawing conclusions for other societies based on Japan as a sole example. I somewhat agree that Japan illustrates that massive infrastructure investment, combined with diligence in maintaining functioning societal systems, does in fact yield a high quality of life that appears sustainable even if the metrics of economic growth look terrible. That's because GDP as a measure of "quality of life" is a shitty indicator IMO, but that's a whole 'nother rabbit hole to go down...
  - Workaccount2 2y ago
    Japan is a monoculture that acts almost like one big family. Economic rules and values kinda go out the window similar to the way they do when you are selling your brother your old car or repairing your grandmother's sink.
  - handzhiev 2y ago
    Everyone who has been to Japan in the last 20 years or so could argue about the quality of life. Japan is not quite "shiny" and people are not rich.
- ta1243 2y ago
  > It's crazy how so many people don't get this basic economic fact and think public welfare in EU just rains from the sky for free. No, EU welfare state is not some magical hack nobody else thought of, it's just paid from the working class' wages and then redistributed to those in need. If the US took the entire medicare/medicaid budget and split it evenly per person it would be left with more money than the UK spends on healthcare. Its not just how much you spend, its how much you waste.
kiba 2y ago
Quality of life also doesn't cost money. Road infrastructure in the United States might as well be a form of digging holes and then refilling it back up again. Grossly inefficient when we could invest the infrastructure money into world class public transit.
- wombatpm 2y ago
  I think you fail to grasp just how big the US is. Driving from Chicago to Minneapolis is ~430 miles/ 6.5 hours depending on weather and traffic. Every 10 miles or so there is an exit and usually some small town. Every 50 to 100 miles a bigger town. As I recall, after the Chicago suburbs you hit Rockford, Janesville, Madison, Baraboo, Tomah, Eau Claire, Menominee, and Hudson before you get to the St Paul collar communities. So 9 stops on on a single track running between two major cities, with only 1600 more miles to Seattle. And while the distance between stops increase, the population greatly decreases as you head west. Now road construction could be better. Because while Illinois has 300k lane-miles of road, it seems like they only have 200k of asphalt and 100k under construction at any given point in time.
  - Jensson 2y ago
    Scandinavia is sparser than USA and as large as the larger populated states, still has asphalted roads and public stuff even up north.
    - spiderfarmer 2y ago
      American exceptionalism at its finest.
    - jandrese 2y ago
      This is a bit misleading as those countries tend to have the vast majority of the population crowded into a handful of cities that are fairly close together and then a vast untamed wilderness where close to nobody lives. It's easy(ish) to have rail between Oslo and Bergen, less practical to extend that rail to Oldervik.
  - 2y ago
torginus 2y ago
I have had this niggling feeling for a long time that money (and capitalism) gets increasingly more divorced from reality, particularly as money is printed and these astronomic speculative stock market valuations are created based on some optimistic future scenario. This is not some pearl clutching moralistic argument, but a practical observation based on: - Transfer of ownership is not necessarily possible. You can't buy a technologically sensitive company because of regulations. Even if you can buy a foreign firm, transferring the talent, operational base etc. might not be possible. A CEO can't sell off his share of stocks even if they're worth billions because the loss of investor confidence. - Physical limitations on quantities of goods. There is a finite supply of real estate. If everybody in the world wanted a new car suddenly (and had money for it), car prices would go through the roof, and only a small fraction would actually get it. Imo capitalism is not flawed in the way that it is incapable of handling these situations, but it is very flawed in that money is an increasingly poor proxy for the abstract concept of value. This flawed nature of capitalism has been long since endemic (and dare I say integral) to the system, much more value has existed on paper than in reality (see banks), but I think there might be a breaking point at which the system might collapse and hyperinflation would set in.
- Ferret7446 2y ago
  It is precisely because individuals suck so much at correctly perceiving the allocation of value that free market economies ("capitalism") completely blow centrally planned ones ("socialism") out of the water. So the fact that you think money is divorced from reality is a very normal, mundane misconception.
  - torginus 2y ago
    You're taking my argument in the direction I never intended, then taking the dicothomy to the extreme, and then claiming victory unsupported by evidence. - I never wanted to contrast 'capitalism' and 'communism' or whatever. I merely wanted to point out that the fundamental absurdity of capitalism requiring infinite growth in a finite system has been resolved by having the growth of wealth coming from speculation on future unrealized value. Since I (or anyone else) can't predict the future, it might happen that things do not come to pass as they were expected and that future value might not be realized. Money is divorced from reality, it derives its value from the collective trust and belief by the people participating in the system that it can be exchanged for goods and services. In a system of rational and impartial actors, that belief is backed by chiefly existence of said goods (which is the real size of the economic pie) and less by the speculation of future potential that might or or might not happen. So in summary my argument is not between communism or capitalism, but a captialism that is backed by real world value and one that is backed by future speculation. Even if the former can create less economic growth, we can be certain that growth is real. - Central planning works. Great public works certainly are dreamt up and funded by governments yet they contribute enormously to the wealth of nations and enable a lot of value to be created. The moon landing was centrally planned and executed by a country whose per capita wealth was on par with modern day Poland, yet is considered the greatest achivement in history. - There are no real 'centrally planned' or 'free market' economies, as all countries employ both concepts to some degree. But if we were to make a argument, we could say that the US belongs to the 'free market' camp and China belongs the 'centrally planned' camp. Both countries are doing extremely well, this very discussion is about finding which one is actually doing better.
willtemperley 2y ago
Exactly and the fact that, for example, West and Central Africa are waking up [1] to the fact that France has been scamming them out of untold billions, probably trillions is going to shift power significantly. This is happening now. Senegal are following Chad in cutting ties with French military. [1] https://theconversation.com/cfa-franc-conditions-are-ripe-for-replacement-of-the-west-african-currency-rooted-in-colonialism-expert-226969 https://theconversation.com/cfa-franc-conditions-are-ripe-fo...
- willtemperley 2y ago
  Downvotes without comment are pathetic. Step up and make an argument. It's real, it's happening and Europe needs to wake up.
- readthenotes1 2y ago
  Because of the travle game(1) I learned that it was/is common for the leader of the former French colony to send hundreds of thousands in bribes to the president of France... (1) Travle posted here on hn months ago, but unfortunately a Webapp that downloads so I can't give you a url
- spiderfarmer 2y ago
  The economy is not a zero sum game. If other countries are doing well, all the better.
  - Cumpiler69 2y ago
    >The economy is not a zero sum game. Most parts of the global economy are. If you're selling cars for example, there's a fixed amount of drivers on the road you can sell cars to, so if you're VW, you're now competing with cheaper cars from Asia for those same drivers. You can't create new drivers out of thin air to expand the market demand for cars. Once the market is saturated, without having any moat, you enter in a race to the bottom. And that's what Germany's economy is discovering right now and why Europe's share of global GDP has been declining for the past 20 years.
devjab 2y ago
You are correct but it’s also more complex than that since competitive can mean many things. Currently the vast majority of government income for European countries is income tax, and income tax is usually more profitable when the market is actually competitive. Which means you need small local businesses and local production. Having completely optimised and global logistics and value chains isn’t necessarily good for wages. We can tax the wealthy and fortunes more than we do, and we probably should, but within the current systems it wouldn’t change that much. So in some sense many European countries are better prepared for economic downturns than the US even though European countries don’t have a lot of major corporations which don’t produce anything locally. Obviously it’s even more complex than this. Part of what is bringing down the economies in France and Italy is workers rights. Being able to retire at 60 is great, but it was also something that was obtained when people didn’t live as long and have as few children. Though Greece seems to have managed ok without having new public management plunder their country.
- Workaccount2 2y ago
  >Being able to retire at 60 is great, but it was also something that was obtained when people didn’t live as long and have as few children. Short aside this reminds me of: In the US, my Boss's neighbor is an 85 year old woman who retired 42 years ago. And still gets a paycheck twice a month (with CoL increases) and full health insurance. She became a municipal clerk when she turned 18, worked 25 years to get a full pension, then retired at 43. The optimism (maybe pessimism?) people had back in the day was wild. I nearly fell out of my chair when he told me this.

egeozcan 2y ago

Life in the EU is amazing for me, and probably for you too, as well as many others enjoying it here. However, we can't overlook the struggles of those who are turning to radical populist parties.

dachworker 2y ago
I don't think the far-right is fueled by economic stagnation, but I do think that, were we living in an economic golden age, people would be able to ignore and excuse the increased prevalence of foreigners on "their" streets.
- decremental 2y ago
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- Cumpiler69 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - stogot 2y ago
    Well said. Better than I could put into words
    - aguaviva 2y ago
      No, it's just an inspid rant. Let's pick a spot at random: But at the same time the state somehow has money to house feed and medically care of millions of illegal immigrants Do you honestly think the government is literally simply "housing" all the authorized immigrants? As in, literally writing checks to their landlords? And literally paying their grocery bills, each and every week? Do you actually think that's what's happening? Remember, the rant wasn't referring simply to new arrivals, but literally to all the "millions" who have been here for decades. With the tacit approval of US society at large, for the simple reason that (authorized or not) the vast majority form an indispensible part of its workforce, doing the hard work that most Americans refuse to do. I'm not saying the migrant crisis isn't a huge, costly mess. But for whatever is happening, I just don't get these weird, distorted and emotionally manipulative narratives.

zpeti 2y ago

Which country? This matters a lot. I doubt you are in Greece, or Italy, or Portugal. Did you know on GBP PPP Warsaw and Budapest are now better places to live than Madrid, Lisbon and many other Mediterranean cities? It’s crazy. Perhaps Berlin and Copenhagen are still ok, but even France is on a completely unsustainable path that will explode in the next 10-20 years.

dachworker 2y ago

Where does this notion come from? Many Europeans cannot even afford proper AC in summer and heating in winter.

Jensson 2y ago
Of course they can afford it, its just a cultural difference. > Many Europeans cannot even afford proper AC in summer and heating in winter. Basically nobody lacks heating in winter, that one is made up. The thing people lack is AC and its just because people aren't used to it so they don't see it as a need. Edit: Saying this is like saying people can't afford shelter in USA, it is true and there are many homeless but it describes a tiny fraction.
- matwood 2y ago
  And a lot of people in the northern US also don’t have AC. It just wasn’t necessary until somewhat recently. Had little to do with affordability.
- bluGill 2y ago
  Many Europeans have a mild climate where the few days AC is really better than no AC isn't enough to be worth it. Particularly if you stick to western Europe when you mean Europe, (eastern Europe has a harsher climate but also still coming out from soviet days and so doesn't have the wealth needed to put AC everywhere though some are getting close)
- rootusrootus 2y ago
  > The thing people lack is AC and its just because people aren't used to it so they don't see it as a need. I suspect it's just that Europe is mostly north of the US and AC is more luxury than necessity. Places in the US like Seattle, which is still south of much of Europe, only recently rose above 50% AC prevalence. It's become much more popular as the climate as grown warmer.
- mbs159 2y ago
  > Many Europeans cannot even afford proper AC in summer and heating in winter. A lot of people don't need AC, and heating is a non-issue almost everywhere.

mytailorisrich 2y ago

Quality of life is the result of economic prosperity. If the economy falls behind then quality of life will follow at some point. In fact quality of life is already not so great and decreasing.

Cumpiler69 2y ago
>If the economy falls behind then quality of life will follow at some point. If only Europeans would accept this truth and wake up that something has to change yesterday. What's happening to Greece is just the mining canary for what's gonna happen in much of the rest of EU later, if there's no preventive change of course.
bluGill 2y ago
Only partially true though. A rising tide can lift all ships. The EU can benefit from advancements in the US invests in because of our wealth. This goes the other way as well, even thought he EU isn't putting out as much, they are putting out something and that benefits the US. So long as they don't fall so far behind that it isn't worth trying to bring them up - but this is unlikely, I'm not even sure how this could happen.
- mytailorisrich 2y ago
  No it's not "partially" true. Noone claims that people in the third world enjoy great quality of life, for instance. You can't benefit from the advancements of others if you cannot afford them... > I'm not even sure how this could happen. It can always happen but it is gradual and takes time. Places like India or China were once the richest areas of the world, only to fall behind and become among the poorest later on because they stagnated while others progressed.
  - bluGill 2y ago
    That is why it is partially true. There are many other factors as to great quality of life. If you have all those other factors as well then a rising tide can life your boat too. Some third world countries have seen this over the years, and others are seeing it now. Some have seen it and then something (often a coup) reverted them to bad quality of life.

ms30 2y ago

Declining/Aging Population becomes the issue. Solutions will probably come from Biology/Nature. Human Quality of life seems to flip the natural "evolutionary script" wrt to population growth. Shrinking population = shrinking landlords/bankers/labor/traders/military/scientists etc In nature, where there is environmental instability/resource scarcity you see a Quantity over Quality reproductive survival strategy (which is similar to what we see poorer regions of the world) that fuels population growth. On the flip side, where there is resource abundance and stability there is growth in population. But we don't see that happening in the richer/higher developed regions with humans. Its like advanced human society/culture has worked out how to override biology. We currently work around falling population(and the shrinking factors of production) with tech/automation, financial/military arm twisting and immigration which gives rise its own social and cultural instability. Nature has found other population models though. Ants(Eusocial insects) have solved their population/survival issues by have a single Baby factory. There are theories that the Haplodiploidy it produces makes ant societies function smoother. While Meerkats have collective breeding model which is similar to what certain Feminists talk about when they say Make Kin not Babies. It will take a couple generations of futzing about in unnecessary directions before we solve these issues. So patience with the people who don't know what they are doing is key.

benterix 2y ago
I tend to agree to a certain extent. From my observation it seems that a certain amount of suffering in life creates strong motivation for overcoming it. If you just have a very happy life you don't have that strong motivation to change things.
- Cumpiler69 2y ago
  >If you just have a very happy life you don't have that strong motivation to change things. Or you see no way out, feel defeated and see that positive change is impossible or futile. It cuts both ways. Inaction doesn't always mean a rosy life.
  - benterix 2y ago

JohnFen 2y ago

As a US citizen, I look with envy on the quality of life in many EU countries.

nickpp 2y ago
You can look closer, if you want. The EU is cheaper and cheaper for the American tourists. And please make sure to visit some of the Eastern European countries, like Romania or Bulgaria too. They are part of the EU as well.
matwood 2y ago
As has I’ve heard said, the best place to make money is the US and the best place to spend money is the EU. If you believe this is the case as I do, the next step is to figure out how to lifestyle arbitrage. Make US wages while living in the EU. I’m older with bit more freedom than when I just started out, but this is exactly what I’m doing. My plan is to eventually quasi retire to the house I’m currently renovating.
rootusrootus 2y ago
I love living in the US and visiting the EU. For me, that seems to be the very best arrangement. Early on, I was infatuated with the perceived better quality of life in the EU, but I see now that I could not easily create something comparable to what I enjoy in the US unless I was an elite member of EU society. My guess is that this is true for the majority of US residents on HN.

RestlessMind 2y ago

> The EU is number one in quality of life and that’s all that matters to me Probably it is time for you to learn the plight of fellow Europeans then. The society is stewing for quite some time now, for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_vests_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_vests_protests The symbol has become "a unifying thread and call to arms" as yellow vests are common and inexpensive, easy to wear over any clothing, are associated with working-class industries, highly noticeable, and widely understood as a distress signal. Rise of far right parties across Italy, Germany, Hungary, Poland, France and many other countries is another clear signal that EU's quality of life may not be great for everyone there.

spiderfarmer 2y ago
Being number one doesn't say it's good for everyone here. It says more about how bad it is in the rest of the world. Also, here in The Netherlands the yellow vests were mostly conspiracy theorists who would pull something to protest against out of thin air. That movement died down pretty quickly. Protests here are almost always against (perceived) government overreach. In most countries even being able to protest is considered a luxury. That's why you don't see that many in the US.
- ashoeafoot 2y ago
  The idea that conspiracies could thrive under economic stress doesn't even occur..
  - WhatIsDukkha 2y ago
    Well being loopy isn't too good for economic success so that's a factor? Though for sure I've met some incredibly loopy people that had some great dice roll streaks. But there are a lot of other factors in the problem and making it an economic issue really obscures some of the more important factors. Intellectual laziness, idle brains, idle hands, toxic memes and bad actors making bad use of them.
    - 2y ago

NeinMiez 2y ago

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loxodrome 2y ago

I’m an American living in France for the past two years and cannot wait to move back to the USA. The taxes are so extreme and salaries so low that no one can even invest in the stock market. If I stay here, I will be able to leave virtually nothing to my kids when I die. The EU can take its 5 weeks of vacation and go fuck itself.

ein0p 2y ago
Have you seen the steep exponent on the US debt? You won't be able to leave anything to your kids if you move to the US either. Might as well enjoy 2 weeks vacation, rather than 2.
fennecfoxy 2y ago
Instead, you'd rather spend all of that money on healthcare in the US and still have nothing left behind. What's the point of inheriting a life in a corporate hellscape (presuming you live in a tech city).
gchamonlive 2y ago
[flagged]
sho_hn 2y ago
On the other hand, it's absolutely fantastic to have a young daughter and have her virtually not impact our finances at all for many years, between clothes/toy gifts from friends, gov subsidy, free healthcare, free education and low levels of keeping-up-with-the-Joneses on after-school activities, plus knowing I won't burden her financially either as I happily live out my retirement on a decent pension. I may not leave her a lot of inherited wealth, but she may also not really need any to have options. (That said, my personal frame of reference for why this is better and wonderfully stress-free is years lived in South Korea--that ultra-low fertility rate has reasons--, not so much the US.)
- fakedang 2y ago
  At the current trajectory of the EU though, don't count on it. She will regret you guys not having built up an inheritance for her, considering that EU tier 1 and tier 2 towns and cities are being rapidly bought up by American private equity.

asdasdsddd 2y ago

That's what the chinese thought in the 18th century :). A fun quote for the europeans here: "Our land is so wealthy and prosperous that we possess all things. Therefore, there is no need to exchange the produce of foreign barbarians for our own." - The emperor at the height of Qing China

asah 2y ago
This was in fact so true that the Brits forced the matter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_Wars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_Wars
- anon291 2y ago
  If your lesson from history is that hubris works, then that's very interesting.
- Der_Einzige 2y ago
  Ironically, the most drug liberal places in the world, i.e. Silicon Valley, are the source of what this article talks about, productivity gains! You just need the right drugs, in this case, Psychedelics.
- trhway 2y ago
  That is the point - the Brits were able to force the matter. If you aren't up-to-date on technology, specifically military tech, you're going to have matters like this forced upon you. Que the Ukraine giving up the nukes (and later getting rid of even non-nuclear missiles).
- marcosdumay 2y ago
  There are a few centuries and a lot of decline between those.
DiogenesKynikos 2y ago
The Emperor is not necessarily the guy to go to for the man-in-the-street view from China.

bjourne 2y ago

Though it has very much decreased in recent years due to rampant inflation. My real wage has decreased since increases have been lower than inflation. For unemployed and low earners it is even worse.

deleted 2y ago

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voidfunc 2y ago

Enjoy it while it lasts, your social programs are a gift from the US historically subsidizing your defense.

quonn 2y ago
This always went both ways with the EU providing a market. When the US stops to provide defense, watch and see the EU reaction, starting with all things digital.
- anon291 2y ago
  As India and China both produce solid middle classes demanding American products, this will matter less and less. We're already seeing this on the West Coast of America (what I know) where Asian and Indian cultures are gaining more and more influence.
  - quonn 2y ago
    It will not matter less and less because China can and will satisfy that demand themselves without relying on American products. So far the US exports about half as much to China compared to the exports to the EU (2022). And it will likely export less to China in the future. India is not even close to replacing the huge European middle class and even if it were it has proven to be a highly unreliable partner. And so far the US exports to India are not even 15% of what is exported to the EU (2022). The EU middle class comprises around 280 million people. Almost as many as the whole US population. And it is culturally and politically aligned with the US to a large extent. It‘s a huge market to loose. Nobody would drop 15-20% of their exports to try to save 5% of their defense budget all while loosing influence and power.
- 0xDEAFBEAD 2y ago
  The US is also a market for EU products. To reverse roles in your argument: Imagine if the US put sanctions on EU companies because EU militaries aren't doing enough to help the US fight cartels in Mexico. Seem reasonable?

naming_the_user 2y ago

This feels like a huge generalization to me. The US, UK, EU and realistically most developed countries I would say have fairly similar quality of life within margin of error. I've travelled a fair amount and everywhere is basically the same. For an individual it's really going to come down to lifestyle and what you prefer. Some people like urban living and walkability, if that's you then you probably want Japan or old world metropolitan European cities. Some people want a house on a few acres and national parks the size of countries, if that's you then you probably want the US. Working cultures are different but then there is no average on that either. People on HN tend to assume everyone is an office worker or something which is actually a fairly narrow slice of the middle of the spectrum. Equally though, online (you can see it in this thread) there's sometimes a weird focus on the absolute worst outcomes which I've always found baffling. If you're planning to become a poor fentanyl addict then yeah, don't go to the US, find a country with a safety net, it'll be more fun.

amrocha 2y ago
[flagged]
- lordloki 2y ago
  I can understand this perspective if you've never been here and base it all on what you read online.
  - amrocha 2y ago
    I lived in Canada for 12 years and regularly visited the US for pleasure and work.
    - signatoremo 2y ago
      Versus people who live in the US in this thread who told you otherwise?
      - 2y ago

jandrewrogers 2y ago

The higher quality-of-life was likely true at one time but I think it is quite arguable now in much of Europe. There is a palpable sense of decline that weighs too heavily on everything. How "quality" is a life without meaningful optimism for the future? It is the quality-of-life of a pensioner waiting for the graveyard. An underrated benefit of the markedly higher standard of living in the US is that people can choose to trade standard of living for quality of life if they wish. American culture seems to preference maxing standard of living but that is optional, and there are plenty of people that make other choices.

amrocha 2y ago
How is the “standard of living” in the US in any way higher than europe?
- jibe 2y ago
  Air conditioning
  - amrocha 2y ago
    You can just buy an AC in Europe, most of the time you don’t need it though
- Workaccount2 2y ago
  The US has wealth disparity, not lack of wealth. The US is an incredible place to live if you have valuable skills, and a below average place to live if you don't.
  - amrocha 2y ago
    [flagged]

YetAnotherNick 2y ago

Even within EU there is a clear correlation between economy and quality of life between countries. While yes more social policy improves quality of life, it can't compensate if the economy difference is too high.

cynicalsecurity 2y ago

This quality of life can disappear in a matter of seconds. EU is still not actively working on protecting itself from the Russian threat. The moment Russia attacks which is going to happen since this is what the fascist Russian dictatorship wants, we could kiss our quality of life goodbye.

fakedang 2y ago

The EU could be a powerful neutral third block, focused on providing the best for its citizens, but for that they would have to keep up economically. The EU is currently a massive laggard, worse than China in a lot of metrics, yet having dalliances with some levels of Chinese authoritarianism. Not to mention the current unsustainable state of its welfare state.

rdm_blackhole 2y ago

You forgot to mention that this quality of life is bought with debt and deficits that have been running for the last 30 years. Look at what's happening in France for proof that this is just not sustainable. The US has a massive advantage tough,their currency is the global currency accepted and needed everywhere that is backed by the US army. Much less so the Euro. The cost of all these social programs has to come from somewhere and currently the majority of these costs are shouldered by the middle class that is being squeezed to the max and speaking as someone from the middle class, I can assure you that having a couple of extra weeks of holiday and more job safety (if you are into that sort of thing) is not worth 55% to 65% of my gross income. Even universal healthcare is crumbling now. At some point the EU will need to get it's productivity up and become competitive once again or all this quality of life will have to go as it won't be financially possible to continue on this path.

eikenberry 2y ago

This is assuming nation-state conquests are out of the picture.

roncesvalles 2y ago

>The EU is number one in quality of life I feel like this is only the case for a very narrow demographic - the young, bicycle-riding, sex-having mid-20s college grad still trying to figure out their calling in life while living frugally without a care. It really sucks being 40 and still earning like 57k EUR or whatever.

ragazzina 2y ago
>It really sucks being 40 and still earning like 57k EUR or whatever. Is this a joke? 60k in France means you earn more than 92% of the population. 60k in Italy means you earn more than 96% of the population. 60k in Germany means you earn more than 80% of the population.
- roncesvalles 2y ago
  Without challenging the veracity of your statements (which sound implausible if you narrow it down to working age population not in education and working a full-time permanent job), so what? There is no rule that life should only suck for a minority of people and that most people are happy. It may well be that the 90% of people earning <60k EUR live generally miserable lives, and for the top 10%, "the EU is number one" and they post about it on Hacker News.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
sofixa 2y ago
> It really sucks being 40 and still earning like 57k EUR or whatever. Why? If that's enough money for the quality of life you want for the cost of living you have, what does the number matter?

mmmBacon 2y ago

Given European demographics and the changing political landscape, it's hard to imagine that the quality of life in Europe can remain as it was through the 1990-2010's. Additionally, many European cities are essentially museums, riding on what was built centuries ago, with little innovation. If you don't believe this, just go to a German city that was completely destroyed during the war. I'd imagine that Europe is at or near the peak in terms of its quality of life. At least some of the European lifestyle has been due to peace on the Continent. Up until now peace in Europe has been funded by US taxpayers. The situation in Georgia and in Ukraine is what you get when European affairs are left to Europeans. Without the US providing military aid to Ukraine, Ukraine would have fallen and you'd have Putin banging on your back door. Additionally, the EU's inability to supply Ukraine with basic military equipment such as artillery shells is indicative of how Europe is devoid of industrial capacity and couldn't rally in its own defense if it had to.

71bw 2y ago
>The situation in Georgia and in Ukraine is what you get when European affairs are left to Europeans. What are you smoking? >Additionally, the EU's inability to supply Ukraine with basic military equipment such as artillery shells is indicative of how Europe is devoid of industrial capacity and couldn't rally in its own defense if it had to. https://www.president.pl/storage/image/core_files/2024/11/12/998e369f0515f1c03cb0b22ee79ed9be/jpg/prezydent/preview/EN%20czolgi%20logo%20popr.jpg https://www.president.pl/storage/image/core_files/2024/11/12...
- mmmBacon 2y ago
  To your country's credit Poland is punching above its weight relative to the rest of the deadbeats but I wasn't talking about tanks. However, you've sent 240 T-72 Soviet era tanks to Ukraine and ~12 Leopard tanks. I was talking basic equipment like: 155mm artillery shells. In that case, unfortunately, the facts are not on your side. The majority of 155mm shells that are sent to Ukraine come from the US. The US has increased production of 155mm shells 6x this year alone. The same is true for body armor and small arms. Europe cannot ramp production in almost any category. Then there's this. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1364467/ukraine-weapon-deliveries-value-by-country/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1364467/ukraine-weapon-d...

clarionbell 2y ago

The reason for that is that we have offloaded defense to americans and have century of accumulated capital (legacy of colonialism) to spend. How long do you think it's going to last? Even Brussels is getting concerned and that's telling.