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South Korean president declares martial law, parliament votes to lift it
- guerrilla 2y agoGreat, all the world needs is yet more instability. Any guesses on market reactions here? Are component prices going to get worse?
- tekla 2y agoWelp, going 오일팔 518 all over again. A joke of a government.
- timcobb 2y agoPlease elaborate for those without context. Would be much appreciated.
- chaoskanzlerin 2y agoa quick internet search reveals this refers to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwangju_Uprising https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwangju_Uprising
- dsego 2y agoInteresting, I don't remember learning or hearing about this one. > While the South Korean government claimed 165 people were killed in the massacre, scholarship on the massacre today estimates 600 to 2,300 victims. Just for the sake of it, compared it to the widely known chinese tiananmen square massacre, albeit this one has widely varying figures on wikipedia: > The Chinese Red Cross had given a figure of 2,600 deaths but later denied having given such a figure.[16][17] The Swiss Ambassador had estimated 2,700. Beijing hospital records compiled shortly after the events recorded at least 478 dead and 920 wounded. ...etc
- Isamu 2y agoHere’s a more recent movie related to this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Taxi_Driver https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Taxi_Driver It’s pretty good, you should be able to find it on streaming services.
- Isamu 2y agoI also recommend this book https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Acts https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Acts although it is pretty heavy reading, about ordinary people caught up in horrific events.
- skhr0680 2y agoSouth Korea stopped murdering their citizens for expressing themselves. China didn’t
- pjc50 2y ago> I don't remember learning or hearing about this one Happened with tacit approval of the US, that's probably why - since it was ""anticommunist"".
- dsego 2y agoI guess it's common to assign different motives based on which side did the deed. You know, their crimes are stemming from an innate moral deficiency, our crimes are an exception or the result of external circumstances, not reflective of our core values.
- bigbacaloa 2y agoIn the US one is not taught about US support of dictatorships in the past and present.
- robin_reala 2y agoWhen I visited Gwangju I spend some time in the museum dedicated to the uprising, and the military area where people were tortured. It was pretty harrowing.
- sitkack 2y ago> The Gwangju Uprising, known in Korean as May 18 (Korean: 오일팔; Hanja: 五一八; RR: Oilpal; lit. Five One Eight), were student-led demonstrations that took place in Gwangju, South Korea, in May 1980, against the dictatorship of Chun Doo-hwan. The uprising was violently suppressed by the South Korean military with the approval and logistical support of the United States under the Carter administration, which feared the uprising might spread to other cities and tempt North Korea to interfere.
- alephnerd 2y agoIs it the 1980s again?
- cuuupid 2y agoCan someone ELI5 if this is a huge deal (like declaring martial law would be in the west), or if this is the equivalent of a "government shutdown" when similar budget impasses occur in the US?
- alephnerd 2y agoMassive deal. South Korea is a new democracy and sudden impositions of martial law harken back to the 1970s-80s when military rule existed. Best case, this is a blatant attempt at a self coup d'etat. Worst case, North Korea actually engaged in war.
- blitzar 2y agoWorst case, South Korea starts a war with North Korea so the president can cling to power.
- etiam 2y agoAre you sure that's a worst case scenario? Pyongyang has clearly decided to get their troops current live combat experience and is soliciting military assistance from a larger aggressive dictatorship, which is however very busy elsewhere right now. That reason would be awful, and most likely the consequences too, but it's not readily obvious to me that the timing would be.
- blitzar 2y agoThe South marching north would force China into the conflict and the West would very tentitatively stand by while South Koreans were being fed into a meat grinder. Should South Korea manage to unify North & South it would bankrupt them. The North marching South would get little to no support from their allies and would be repelled rapidly before returning to the current status quo. So yes, I am sure. Neither sides allies have any desire to be the agressor. Not to mention that simply starting a war to cling on to power might be the stupidest reason there is to start a war.
- decremental 2y agoThis article reeks to high hell of the regime propaganda writing we see about domestic politics: "Yoon — whose approval rating has dipped in recent months — has struggled to push his agenda against an opposition-controlled parliament since taking office in 2022. Yoon’s conservative People Power Party had been locked in an impasse with the liberal opposition Democratic Party over next year’s budget bill. He has also been dismissing calls for independent investigations into scandals involving his wife and top officials, drawing quick, strong rebukes from his political rivals." See the same patterns. You can tell which side they want to paint in a bad light and what do you know it's the conservative side.
- klysm 2y agoSure, but you have not disqualified their claims. Perhaps the conservative side should be painted in a bad light?
- myrmidon 2y agoDo you think that "low approval" and "scandals involving his wife" are completely irrelevant here? Should those be omitted from an article like this because he is on the conservative side of the spectrum?
- notahacker 2y agoYour post reeks to high hell of the fact-free partisan contrarianism that has plagued US politics On the one hand, a sitting president has conducted a coup d'etat condemned by his own party, on flimsy grounds and apparently with limited public support. On the other hand, he's not left wing so it's clear that the only possible problem with his military coup is that journalists are insufficiently favourably disposed to it.
- hyeonwho4 2y agoThe reasons referenced in the declaration of martial law were "cabinet and prosecutorial impeachments" and "budget difficulties in the face of national problems".
- marricks 2y ago[flagged]
- transcriptase 2y agoTrue, it wasn’t all that long ago there was a coordinated campaign from the Republicans to paint Democratic leadership as colluding with Russia. Including a fabricated dossier, and the intelligence community unanimously and falsely declaring that Trump’s son’s laptop was a Russian misinformation plot and using that declaration to have tech giants and the media censor the story. No wait, I think I have that backwards…
- laidoffamazon 2y agoCorrect, they tried to make this a narrative happen through the Durham investigation and it failed miserably. Turns out the incoming and former president is deeply intertwined with Russian interests, a throughline of his presidency including his first impeachment
- transcriptase 2y agoAnd you know this for certain, because the architects of the fabricated dossier and those who were willing to explicitly lie about Hunters laptop told you as much. I assume it’s also Russian misinfo that a Ukrainian energy firm gave Hunter a board appointment and a million dollars a year, which he spent on crack and hookers and prolifically recorded himself doing both. It must be pure coincidence that the pardon Joe issued for him goes back 10 years to cover that period, in addition to the more recent tax fraud and firearms offences. Pure propaganda! I know it is because the bad orange man’s opponents say it is.
- rat87 2y agoThat's incredibly misleading Trump literally colluded with Russia, an authoritarian opponent of the US to undermine our elections. Plenty of honest conservatives were against him precisely because of that
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- ghoshbishakh 2y agoPutin relaxing nuclear weapon usage policies and now south korea making anti-democratic moves, 2025 is going to be interesting. EDIT: Not mentioning Trump is my mistake.
- intoamplitudes 2y agoTransparent coup d'etat attempt rumored to happen for months. The only option when the mouse is cornered. Approval rating in the <10% range, Japan whispering in his ear and pulling the puppet strings, crazy selfish wife abusing state resources, it is almost comically predictable if not for how serious it is. North Korea is always the convenient excuse... only hope Westerners don't get fooled by the rhetoric. Guy digging his own grave, only hope Koreans get off their complacent asses and take this guy down quickly. World cannot afford more instability.
- willvarfar 2y agoAre the army likely to back him?
- petesergeant 2y agoUnclear if it’s better if they do or they don’t. On one hand it’s clearly against the interests of the country to support him, on the other hand democracies absolutely don’t want the military taking any domestic political role
- diggan 2y ago> democracies absolutely don’t want the military taking any domestic political role If they're actively fighting against the democratic principles (like enforcing martial law to distract from something rather than when really necessary) then yeah, I think we'd want them to take them down if they don't leave by themselves.
- AnimalMuppet 2y agoWhen someone declares martial law, that means that they intend to use the military to enforce their rule. At that point the military has been told to take a domestic political role - it wasn't the military's choice. Of course, the military could refuse. In the abstract, I think that might be ideal. (I don't know enough to say whether that would be ideal in this situation.)
- drdrek 2y ago[flagged]
- maeil 2y agoThis is very likely done for his own domestic reasons, unrelated to NK.
- diggan 2y ago[flagged]
- meepmorp 2y agoNeither, it's entirely about domestic politics. Everything about NK is an excuse for what's just a power grab.
- bhouston 2y agoThis is just domestic politics, not related to international events as far as I can tell. Even the North Korea sympathizer line from the President seems forced.
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- DataDaemon 2y ago[flagged]
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- rvz 2y ago[flagged]
- cassepipe 2y agoYou edited your low-effort take into another still unargumented low-effort take... I see that you are not new here so you probably know what to expect for your comment, HN doesn't look kindly of flamebait. I am hijacking your comment in the hope that you and others will read the link I post here from a military historian whose articles end up regularly on the front page of HN. It adresses the question of US foreign adventurism and why the situation is different today. I.e why Iraq and Ukraine is not the same. It also give you a framework to think about international order. Hope this will open your mind a bit ant that you will stop blindly repeating ready-made ideas pundits keep hammering on: https://acoup.blog/2023/07/07/collections-the-status-quo-coalition/ https://acoup.blog/2023/07/07/collections-the-status-quo-coa...
- wruza 2y ago(Not gp) I’d like to read it, but I don’t understand how to even start to make sense of large texts like this. Does one just read and believe, or how does it look like? It speaks many insights and facts, but where does it get these? How does one even write such text without being e.g. a highly ranked official working directly in the field for many years? Authors profile https://acoup.blog/author/aimedtact/ https://acoup.blog/author/aimedtact/ doesn’t inspire confidence either. I’m not overtly critically set against it or anything in this thread, just curious what is the reasonable expectation here.
- esperent 2y ago
- MrMcCall 2y agoIt's a very brief news article but this caught my eye: "He has also been dismissing calls for independent investigations into scandals involving his wife and top officials" Well, there's a standard motive. And, if there's two things that seems constant in conservative politics, it's that they don't want anything to change (by defintion of 'conservative'), and they do seem to be forever embroiled in accusations of corruption. And they never look trustworthy, for what that's worth. Perhaps it is as I understand that a lifetime of being lousy to other human beings shows on one's face, in one's voice, and is evident in one's lack of happiness. We all reap what we sow, for ill or good, and apparently the vast majority of people that seek power generally do so for selfish, greedy reasons.
- bluGill 2y agoTake the conservative out of that. You see it in every human. If it isn't in you it means you are carefully suppressing it. Often those who seem to be suppressing it are really just aware they would be caught and so the image of being honest is important to maintain. The above should not be confused with values. Many people abusing power really have values against what they are doing. They have just figuring out how to convince themselves the alternatives are worse. Having values does make it somewhat easier to suppress your tendency to abuse those values, but only somewhat.
- JoshTriplett 2y ago> If it isn't in you it means you are carefully suppressing it. This is false and excessively cynical. There are genuinely good people who have values and live up to those values, without hypocrisy, and that doesn't mean they have "carefully suppressed" desires to do otherwise.
- bluGill 2y agoThey have desires all the time. Most of them will admit it. their actions prove their success at the suppression.
- a012 2y agoDoes it apply to the whole country? Then we the tourists are really freaking pissed
- cdiamand 2y agoCan someone familiar with South Korean politics give us some context for what is happening here?
- madaxe_again 2y agoCorruption probe, a weird cult, and now apparently a coup d’etat in the making.
- dtquad 2y ago1. Very low trust in politicians after it was revealed former president Park Geun-hye was secretly a crypto-Christian cult member despite claiming to be atheist. 2. South Korea has a bizarre large-scale "gender war" going on that extents into mainstream society. Imagine the Western online MRA/redpill/incel vs. radfem circles but as core identities in national politics. For some reason a high-trust society has decided to become an ultra-low-trust society where trust is being eradicated all the way down to the nuclear family.
- wruza 2y agocrypto-Christian cult Had to look that up and wasn’t disappointed…
- jonwinstanley 2y agoSeemingly nothing to do with Bitcoin either :-)
- giardini 2y agoI was disappointed b/c it was not clear. OP could have instead stated: "...former president Park Geun-hye was secretly a religious cult member." which is shorter and clearer.
- JetSpiegel 2y agoBut "crypto" is Greek, everybody loves subrosa communication.
- bloomingkales 2y agoOrwell being so right about governments using the constant threat of a virtual enemy has got to be one of the all time top on the money predictions ever. Up there with gravity and shit. I wish we could do something with this information, but alas, knowledge isnt power. Cersei Lannister: Power is power.
- udev4096 2y agoLittlefinger: Knowledge is power.
- ebiester 2y agoThat wasn’t a prediction, just an observation.
- Cumpiler69 2y ago>Orwell being so right about governments using the constant threat of a virtual enemy has got to be one of the all time top on the money predictions ever. It's not a prediction when it's history. That has been going on at least as long as the Roman Empire, yet people are still surprised it's happening today. Modern regimes didn't invent these schemes, they're reusing tried and tested methods because they're known to work because human psychology and behavioral instinct is vulnerable to the same exploits which probably will never get patched anytime soon.
- rrr_oh_man 2y agoAnd it’s always the others who are doing it. Our government would never. I mean, they did, but that was at least… dozens of years ago. And got forcibly declassified. They would never today. I guess. :-)
- llm_trw 2y agoIt's been at least one dozen years ago since the last time it happened. No one from that period is still in the exact same position as when it happened - some of them were promoted.
- bzvxjkx 2y agoIs this happening because of N Korea troops in Ukraine and people disagreeing about what to do about it?
- robobro 2y agono
- BadHumans 2y agoI'm not familiar with the situation but reading the article, this sounds very similar to Netanyahu in Isreal, using the excuse of the opposition to stay in power.
- bluGill 2y agoFrom what I can tell Netanyahu was honestly elected. There is still reason to suspect he will be voted out in the next election (if he won the current war in 2 months he would be sure to win) and will peacefully transition power. Only time will tell of course, for now at least it still looks like someone in power that you may not like but honestly elected by his own people.
- BadHumans 2y agoI'm referring to the fact that Netanyahu is facing criminal charges and is using the war to delay his court hearings and simultaneously flatten Gaza.
- heraldgeezer 2y ago[flagged]
- cess11 2y agoTakes a pretty strong stomach to connect Netanyahu and honesty in any way. The US had to delist some terrorist organisation to make it possible for him to form a government, which went on to intensify the crimes against the palestinians while routinely lying about it, and then shrugged off warnings about the coming attack on October 7th, and then he's been lying about the policy regarding captives, and so on and so on. In Israel it's common to view his genocidal use of the IOF as a way to cling to power and avoid prosecution.
- bluGill 2y ago> Takes a pretty strong stomach to connect Netanyahu and honesty in any way. It shouldn't. People are complex - all of them. Many people do both good and bad things. We should celebrate and encourage the good even while condemning the bad.
- dataflow 2y agoI feel like I'd seen absolutely nothing about South Korea in the news for a long time, and then suddenly woke up to this, with zero context. Do folks have any recommendations for how to keep up with global news at a high level so that you're not completely clueless when something like this happens? Like I mean some sort of "international edition" of an aggregator like Google News, I guess.
- nullhole 2y agoI read reuters on a regular basis, and I was surprised
- fx18011 2y agoYou are not alone. Even South Koreans are clueless.
- AnimalMuppet 2y agoI use Reuters to keep a non-US eye on the news. I didn't see this coming from there either, though...
- tosh 2y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal:Current_events https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal:Current_events
- croisillon 2y agoi look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal:Current_events https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal:Current_events once a day, it gives a good overview of the world news
- kevstev 2y agoI don't read it regularly, but The Economist is a great source that covers pretty much every corner of the world. In fact I don't subscribe because its just a firehose, and I just can't keep up with the internal squabbling of parties all over the world. I went to check to see if its available online- even via my local library, but it seems The Economist was pulled from major online sites around 2023 due to their pricing model. So I can't verify if this was covered. That said, what information has trickled out points to this being a big surprise, so there may not have been storm clouds brewing that could have foretold this. Edit: Got past the paywall on the site and did a search and there appears to be no articles published that would have predicted an issue like this: https://www.economist.com/search?q=south+korea&sort=date&page=1 https://www.economist.com/search?q=south+korea&sort=date&pag...
- nihzm 2y ago[flagged]
- debo_ 2y agoIt says "most", not all. This seems like evidence of an interesting new phenomenon to me, as the guidelines specify.
- disgruntledphd2 2y agoMartial law being declared in a developed democracy is sufficiently unusual that it works for me.
- someonehere 2y agoConsidering there’s a tech industry in South Korea I would like to know how that might affect global markets and industry from that country.
- llm_trw 2y agoThe implication is that a rather large chunk of the technology sector - e.g. everything Samsung makes - is now under a very wide blanket of uncertainty.
- nihzm 2y agoI had not considered this. You (and others mentioning it) have a point. Though I would still have preferred a more substantial article as submission.
- llm_trw 2y agoIt's breaking news about a topic that came out of the blue for everyone. There isn't the time or knowledge of wtf is going on to write that article.
- nihzm 2y ago> It's breaking news about a topic that came out of the blue for everyone. After having read the two rather strongly opinionated pieces "Amusing ourselves to death" [1] and "Avoid news" [2] they have mostly convinced me that "breaking news" is rarely of value in our everyday life, and I would rather have less of it. [1] https://ia800101.us.archive.org/27/items/Various_PDFs/NeilPostman-AmusingOurselvesToDeath.pdf https://ia800101.us.archive.org/27/items/Various_PDFs/NeilPo... [2]: https://web.archive.org/web/20130117104220if_/http://dobelli.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Avoid_News_Part1_TEXT.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20130117104220if_/http://dobelli...
- iambateman 2y agoThe article points out that even some in his own party have denounced the move. I’m no expert but I find it hard to believe there’s much pro-PRK sympathy in Seoul among a major political party. Considering this is making western news, it seems the president has over-played his hand. Hopefully this passes quickly.
- ncr100 2y agoAs a casual non-Korean reader, this does appear to be a way for the current leadership to shut down corruption investigations against him, and to end democratic opposition to his policies. Democratic opposition can seem stifling. However the solution is to negotiate. The leader here is taking an authoritarian dictatorship path so a solution, unfortunately, it appears to my eyes.
- tootie 2y agoCNN is reporting that parliament has successfully overturned martial law.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago> CNN is reporting that parliament has successfully overturned martial law National Assembly has voted to lift martial law. Yoon (and the army) would still have to recognise it.
- SauciestGNU 2y agoAssume the coup fails. How does South Korea purge its military of coup participants without significantly reducing its readiness for conflict with a resurgent north Korea?
- skissane 2y agoIt sounds like the military has been obeying the President’s orders somewhat halfheartedly, in a manner which has deprived them of much of their effectiveness. I’m not sure in that scenario it is right to label them as “coup participants”.
- JumpCrisscross 2y agoArticle 77 of the Korean Constitution: "1. When it is required to cope with a military necessity or to maintain the public safety and order by mobilization of the military forces in time of war, armed conict or similar national emergency, the President may proclaim martial law as prescribed by law. 2. Martial law shall be of two types, extraordinary martial law and precautionary martial law. 3. Under extraordinary martial law, special measures may be taken with respect to the necessity for warrants, freedom of speech, the press, assembly and association, or the powers of the Executive and the Judiciary as prescribed by law. 4. When the President has proclaimed martial law, he shall notify the National Assembly without delay. 5. When the National Assembly requests the lifting of martial law with the concurrent vote of a majority of the total members of the National Assembly, the President shall comply." https://www.constituteproject.org/constitution/Republic_of_Korea_1987.pdf https://www.constituteproject.org/constitution/Republic_of_K... page 16
- sidewndr46 2y agoIt sounds like the National Assembly just needs to meet & vote to counter this?
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago> sounds like the National Assembly just needs to meet & vote to counter this If the President is accusing "the country’s opposition of controlling the parliament, sympathizing with North Korea and paralyzing the government with anti-state activities," that vote will take place without the opposition. (It's mindblowing they left this in their Constitution after the 80s.)
- pmontra 2y agoA question from the other side of the world: if the opposition is controlling the parliament, isn't that the majority and isn't the opposition controlling the president?
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- anacrolix 2y agoGlad I sold my South Korean ETF already
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- djaouen 2y agoI have family in South Korea. Hope this either ends quickly or him and his wife can come to the U.S. together. :(
- wesselbindt 2y agoThe reason given is to root out pro-North Korean elements. How is red scare stuff still a thing?
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago> How is red scare stuff still a thing? You can't compare McCarthyism to Korean politics because Canada wasn't the USSR.
- wesselbindt 2y agoHave you heard of the Cuban missile crisis? The threat from the USSR was real, and right there on the US border. These situations, and the resultant scare mongering for political gain, are highly comparable.
- wffurr 2y agoWith a nuclear armed neighbor sharing a language and a heavily armed border with paranoid leaders, of course it’s still a thing.
- meepmorp 2y agoSK has been at war with a hostile, communist neighbor for about 75 years. It's not really "red scare stuff." Edit: I'm not sure what I was getting at, so ignore me
- wesselbindt 2y agoThere's no pro north Korean elements in the opposition. This is using a very real foreign adversary as a boogeyman to demonize political opponents. That's exactly what "red scare stuff" was back then in the United States, and that's exactly how it's being used right now by the president of Korea.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
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- JohnFen 2y agoFreedom seems to be on the decline everywhere.
- poszlem 2y ago[flagged]
- NoGravitas 2y agoThe US has never had a problem with autocratic right-wing governments in South Korea before.
- JohnFen 2y agoThe US has its own problem with declining freedom.
- poszlem 2y agoThis doesn't invalidate what I wrote.
- JohnFen 2y agoTrue, but I'm pointing out that the issue is larger than what you wrote.
- anon291 2y agoHow so? That may have been true a few years ago during the COVID lockdowns, but as we've recently seen, Americans will often punish that behavior heavily at the poll booth
- JohnFen 2y agoI think that post-covid US has been more antagonistic to freedom than ever before in my lifetime, and the trend is getting worse.
- _1tem 2y agoIt's December for God's sakes, just yesterday I thought that the Syria rebels would be the last geopolitical surprise for the year.
- always_imposter 2y ago[flagged]
- Mistletoe 2y agoAt least this one is on the way out. Ours is on the way in. :(
- tremon 2y agoRemember this playbook for when yours is supposed to be on his way out.
- jmyeet 2y agoBecause we've collectively been propagandised out of any sense of class consciousness. We don't have class solidarity with our fellow workers. Instead we see ourselves as Jeff Bezos-in-waiting, "temporarily embarrassed millionaires" [1]. We have been manipulated into hyper-individualism and division across pointless lines like race or gender identity as a means of preventing labor solidarity. Depending on which country you're talking about, leftist momentum has neutered if not outright eviscerated. In the US, the New Deal Democrats dominated Congress for 60 years only to sell their souls to the same neoliberals and corporate overlords as the right-wing. So now we have rising fascism because there's no counter-balance to capitalism and fascism is, depending on who you listen to, either the political wing of capitalism or it's simply capitalism in crisis. People from the 1930s and 1940s are still alive yet here we are again. The Red Scare did unimaginable damage to our society. So this isn't new. It's simply the culmination of a 50+ year long project. [1]: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/328134-john-steinbeck-once-said-that-socialism-never-took-root-in https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/328134-john-steinbeck-once-...
- lfmunoz4 2y agoSounds like over philosophizing, could it just be that corruption (i.e, are Biden/Harris the most qualified people in the USA to run the country? If not that is a form of corruption.) is at an all time high, and inequality is growing. If you look at US elections you see the educated elite in NY and CA verses the rest of the country.
- Eumenes 2y agoThe US State Department is having a busy Q4!!
- jmyeet 2y agoSouth Korea is dying. It has the lowest birth rate in the world: ~0.78 children per woman. If you want to know what that means, take 100 people (50 men, 50 women). In 3 generations there are... 6 people. That's population collapse. Every developed nation is barreling towards this fate. It's what end stage capitalism and 5 chaebols-in-a-trenchcoat as a government looks like. The only thing preventing population collapse in the West is immigration. Any country that wants to maintain a particular ethnic majority is doomed. So why is South Korea like this? Because of the demands of work, the government being beholden to the chaebols, the demands on women to both work, have children and largely be responsible for raising them without work suffering. There's a vicious cycle of entrenched misogyny and women essentially opting out of this system (ie the 4B movement). Add all this up and you have a country that is bound for crisis after crisis. You cannot look at this current crisis without understanding the broader context. The endless pursuit of profits will quite literally destroy a country if you let it.
- GuestFAUniverse 2y agoTo South Korea: thanks for all the fish... oh wait: cheap stuff... and goodbye. Problem is: what is NK doing with its army, when SK has practically died out? I mean, they could just procreate, wait and declare superior victory, instead of wasting resources on their army.
- adamc 2y agoIf you correct for the replacement rate being 2.1, it's actually even worse than this... closer to 5 people.
- xyst 2y ago[flagged]
- jordanpg 2y ago[flagged]
- Fredor 2y ago[flagged]
- nextworddev 2y ago[flagged]
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- educasean 2y agoPlease note that this is not a majority sentiment in Korea. This is a fringe conspiracy theory popular among the 4chan-like crowd in SK. Edit: It looks like the parent post was updated to remove the conspiratorial stuff. The sole fact listed is indeed true.
- dyauspitr 2y agoHim being convicted should be a verifiable fact. Why is it a conspiracy?
- nextworddev 2y agoI gave up expecting people to be reasonable on HN when discussing politics
- educasean 2y agoThe original unedited post included theories about the current president being a political transplant to secretly bring down the Korean right.
- card_zero 2y agoMore here https://www.bbc.com/news/live/cn38321180et https://www.bbc.com/news/live/cn38321180et > According to South Korean law, the government must lift martial law if the majority of National Assembly demands in a vote. > The same law also prohibits martial law command from arresting lawmakers. > members of the National Assembly have been banned from accessing the building. The head of the (president's) ruling People Power Party has vowed to block the (president's) declaration, describing it as "wrong". > Currently, around 70 members of the opposition are inside the assembly, while the rest are gathering outside > When Speaker Woo Won-shik arrives he will call for a vote to lift the martial law > special forces soldiers are inside the assembly building. It is unclear what the soldiers are doing. Also, military helicopters landed on the roof.
- bananapub 2y agoFull text of South Korea's martial law decree: > In order to protect liberal democracy from the threat of overthrowing the regime of the Republic of Korea by anti-state forces active within the Republic of Korea and to protect the safety of the people, the following is hereby declared throughout the Republic of Korea as of 23:00 on December 3, 2024: > 1. All political activities, including the activities of the National Assembly, local councils, and political parties, political associations, rallies and demonstrations, are prohibited. > 2. All acts that deny or attempt to overthrow the liberal democratic system are prohibited, and fake news, public opinion manipulation, and false propaganda are prohibited. > 3. All media and publications are subject to the control of the Martial Law Command. > 4. Strikes, work stoppages and rallies that incite social chaos are prohibited. > 5. All medical personnel, including trainee doctors, who are on strike or have left the medical field must return to their jobs within 48 hours and work faithfully. Those who violate will be punished in accordance with the Martial Law. > 6. Innocent ordinary citizens, excluding anti-state forces and other subversive forces, will be subject to measures to minimize inconvenience in their daily lives. > Violators of the above proclamation may be arrested, detained, and searched without a warrant in accordance with Article 9 of the Martial Law Act of the Republic of Korea (Special Measures Authority of the Martial Law Commander), and will be punished in accordance with Article 14 of the Martial Law Act (Penalties). > Martial Law Commander, Army General Park An-su, Tuesday, December 3, 2024. https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/full-text-south-koreas-martial-law-decree-2024-12-03/ https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/full-text-south-k... so, the Assembly meeting to even discuss this is explicitly banned.
- dyauspitr 2y ago[flagged]
- zelon88 2y agoThe paradox is; Society should benefit everyone equally. If it doesn't, then the ones who are not benefiting have a social responsibility to adjust it until it does. By hook or by crook, for better or worse. Equity is usually pretty difficult to swallow for those who are benefiting inequitably. But the thing is, if it's not working for everyone, it isn't working at all and it should probably be broken the rest of the way and rebuilt. Sorry if you're in the camp that doesn't think anything is broken, but if this many people think it is then maybe you're wrong. At the very least don't pretend to be surprised when the people at the bottom lack any reason to defend your place on top.
- foxglacier 2y agoWhat if there's no solution that has both equity and survival of the society? I don't think we have any known solution yet. Of course if the society collapses, the equity goes with it. By the way, how is women being housewives them at the bottom? Housewives have an equal share of their husbands' income, so they're just as wealthy as men. They also traditionally control what it's spent on. It's just that their job is childcare instead of pushing buttons on a machine. Is the problem that men can choose which kind of machine they'll spend all day pushing buttons on but housewives can't choose their work?
- johnny22 2y agoif that's how you wanna put it, then yes. Women should have the same rights to choose which machine's buttons they push.
- foxglacier 2y agoEven if it leads to the collapse of the society which enables them to have those rights, so future generations are back to sex-discriminatory religious rules? That's the problem. Equal rights seems like it might be a self-destroying culture.
- kjrfghslkdjfl 2y agoWait I thought HN was not for politics?? Or is it that when the politics isn't US politics, HN readers can be more emotionally detached and treat it as "interesting"?
- debugnik 2y agoHN is for whatever the HN audience upvotes (and doesn't get downranked by Y Combinator).
- kjrfghslkdjfl 2y ago[dead]
- kbelder 2y agoIf martial law was declared in the US, I expect there'd be a story on HN about it.
- chgs 2y agohttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25661474 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25661474
- jahdG 2y agoThe MPs are being locked out from the National Assembly from overturning this coup: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/12/03/south-korea-martial-law/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/12/03/south-kore... For the South Korean population, the proper way to deal with this is a general strike. Do not work unless in absolutely vital sectors. Koreans here say that this is domestic. Hopefully it is and will be over soon. It is odd however that the U.S. government escalates in Ukraine, there is a new color revolution in Georgia (the country adjacent to Russia), the Syrian rebels launch a major attack and now this. All of this "coincidentally" makes Trump's peace efforts more difficult. Trump will have to clean up all the fires started by this incompetent or malicious administration.
- SuperShibe 2y ago> It is odd however that the U.S. government escalates in Ukraine, there is a new color revolution in Georgia (the country adjacent to Russia), the Syrian rebels launch a major attack and now this. All of this "coincidentally" makes Trump's peace efforts more difficult. Escalating in Ukraine (against Russia), launching a major attack against Assad (a Russian ally) and an upcoming revolution against an (allegedly) pro-Russian government in Georgia all seem to fit into a pattern. This SK-thing seems to divide from that pattern and I’d say it is domestic until proven otherwise. If anything, those other small stabs against Russia will aid negotiations as Russias global influence will be weakened by multiple small fires, some of which western allies can put out more easily.
- aguaviva 2y agoLaunching a major attack against Assad (a Russian ally) and an upcoming revolution against an (allegedly) pro-Russian government in Georgia all seem to fit into a pattern. The only "pattern" between these two at least -- is that you haven't cited any direct, observable reason to believe that US agencies have been behind these events. You know, "evidence" and all that. But rather simply -- speculation.
- SergeAx 2y ago
- cyberlimerence 2y agoYonhap (Korea state news) : The National Assembly voted Wednesday to demand President Yoon Suk Yeol lift emergency martial law. Under the Constitution, martial law must be lifted when a parliamentary majority demands it. Of the 300 members of parliament, 190 were present and all 190 voted in favor of a motion demanding the lifting of martial law. With the motion's passage, the martial law declaration is void, according to the parliamentary speaker's office. [1] [1] https://en.yna.co.kr/view/AEN20241204001651315 https://en.yna.co.kr/view/AEN20241204001651315
- cassepipe 2y agoLast time I checked, access to the national assembly palace was being blocked : https://bsky.app/profile/sung-il-kim.com/post/3lcfskluuwc26 https://bsky.app/profile/sung-il-kim.com/post/3lcfskluuwc26 Any idea how and why it was unblocked ? Anyone with more context ? EDIT: This is the first I cannot think of any reason for getting a downvote... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- kijin 2y agoThe police kept the protesters out, but eventually let in most members of the national assembly and their staff after checking their ID. Martial law is about using the military to control civilian activities. The police are civilian. Their order is to maintain peace, not to interfere with people who have legitimate business at the facility. If Yoon really wanted to preempt the national assembly, he should have sent in the military earlier.
- notahacker 2y agoThere are reports and photos of actual troops in the building, and reports and photos of people who definitely don't look like civilian police leaving the building. I think the bigger problem with attempting to preempt the national assembly is that the troops didn't particularly want to interfere with people that had legitimate business at the assembly either.
- 2y ago
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- yeonsh 2y agoDemocracy in Korea at a Crossroad On December 3, 2024, at 10:27 PM, President Yoon Seokyeol declared martial law. This declaration is illegal and constitutes a criminal act, directly violating the Constitution and other laws. It is essentially a coup d'état. The current political and social situation does not meet the criteria of "a time when it is necessary to respond to military needs or maintain public order in wartime or a similar national emergency" as outlined in Article 77 of the Constitution. Therefore, the emergency martial law is invalid and illegal, and the president should be held accountable. Additionally, martial law is procedurally invalid as there was no cabinet meeting, which is required by Article 2(5) of the Martial Law Act. This martial law is null and void! It is illegal for martial law forces to enter the National Assembly. We demand the immediate lifting of martial law. Kim Min-seok, Member of the National Assembly of the Republic of Korea http://youtube.com/post/Ugkxb5QujtsQagPZalY1RJLx8Cd-W3gdyqO1?si=H1q_4TqU_3laB7UF http://youtube.com/post/Ugkxb5QujtsQagPZalY1RJLx8Cd-W3gdyqO1...
- nickff 2y agoHow is this a coup? It doesn't seem to fall under Wikipedia or any other definition I can find. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coup_d%27%C3%A9tat#:~:text=A%20coup%20d%27%C3%A9tat%20(%2F,to%20unseat%20an%20incumbent%20leadership https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coup_d%27%C3%A9tat#:~:text=A%2.... Do you consider Justin Trudeau's invocation of the Emergencies Act in Canada to have been a coup?
- hyeonwho4 2y agoThe military tried to physically prevent the National Assembly from meeting on a vote to disband the martial law. If they had been successful, the elected National Assembly would have no power. That's about as close to a military takeover as you can get without shots being fired.
- ExoticPearTree 2y agoFrom what I could understand from the news: - the current parliament and the president are at war: the president vetoed any law the parliament passed because he doesn't like them. The parliament voted the budget and cut funding to whatever the president wished for. - all political parties voted to have the martial law order revoked. I don't know what the fallout of this will be, but the curent president of South Korea is toast. He went all in and lost big time.
- regularization 2y agoA few months ago, the US deputy secretary of state said Yoon deserved the Nobel Peace prize. I wonder if this is still the US state department's position. https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/Japan-South-Korea-ties/U.S.-official-says-Kishida-and-Yoon-deserve-Nobel-Peace-Prize https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/Japan-South-Korea-ties/U.S....
- jajko 2y agoMany recipients are very far from ideals based on which its supposedly decided. That stuff, which has nothing to do with actual Nobel prize as we know it for advancing human knowledge and rather just political decision of a different (governmental?) committee should probably cease to exist.
- Kye 2y agoTwo informational live threads: https://bsky.app/profile/antonhur.com/post/3lcfxpcpmuc24 https://bsky.app/profile/antonhur.com/post/3lcfxpcpmuc24 https://bsky.app/profile/sarahjeong.bsky.social/post/3lcfxvft4u22g https://bsky.app/profile/sarahjeong.bsky.social/post/3lcfxvf... My understanding based on just finding out about this and skimming a bit: President declared martial law to distract from some embarrassing thing Military starts enforcing Assembly votes to outlaw martial law Military stands down
- ineedaj0b 2y agonothing loads but a butterfly
- rstuart4133 2y agoFrom that feed: > Democratic Party aides are shown spraying fire extinguishers at the infiltrating army to keep them back. I remember reading this type of minute by minute description of unfolding news on Twitter, back in the day. I'm reading it on BlueSky now. My, how times have changed. I can't find a similar thread on X. For me X's lead post on the subject is: > ELON MUSK HAS CHANGED THE LIKE BUTTON TO SUPPORT THE PEOPLE OF SOUTH KOREA!! https://x.com/utdhans/status/1864005219278889072 https://x.com/utdhans/status/1864005219278889072
- ineedaj0b 2y agoThere were plenty of threads on X about everything, in Korean. Plenty of Armchair experts on both platforms giving likely misconstrued information.
- derelicta 2y ago[flagged]
- dang 2y agoCould you please stop posting flamebait and/or ideological battle comments to HN? You've been doing it a lot, unfortunately. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. You're welcome to express your views thoughtfully and substantively, of course—just not to do this sort of drive-by inflammatory thing, which is tedious and evokes worse from others. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
- whtsthmttrmn 2y agoHe just said he'll lift it so...we'll see what happens!
- bdcravens 2y agoAs I understand, according to SK law, it's not his call anymore.
- whtsthmttrmn 2y agoAh, I have also seen that their National Assembly can vote to lift it, but he actually has to carry it out. I'm not sure either way, though.
- hyeonwho4 2y agoAccording to JTBC, the military has received orders to return to pre-martial-law activities.
- pvaldes 2y agoIs coups d'etat all the way down, one by one... Will not last. When this finish the rebloom of the societies will be massive.
- metalman 2y agothere must be a Korean parable along the lines of chicken little or someone there is writing it now
- DonnyV 2y agoI love how Hacker News moderators will let international political news stay on the site. But never any US political news stay on. Unless it serves the tech industry.
- dang 2y agoA few weeks ago, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42057647 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42057647 was the largest thread in HN's history. More than twice the size of the previous largest thread, in fact.
- dredmorbius 2y agoOT: how can one search HN by number of comments? Algolia sorts by date or votes, but not comments. The linked thread is also very highly ratioed, with a 5.36:1 comments:votes ratio, which is also pretty high on the flamewar / spiciness scale. (I'll have to check my own front-page archive for any higher comment:vote ratios.) The highest voted post remains Stephen Hawking's obituary: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16582136 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16582136> Searching "comments>3000" provides the following list of 8 submissions, which I've sorted and reformatted: 9282 comments 1796 points 1 month ago Trump wins presidency for second time 4576 comments 3089 points 4 years ago Biden wins White House, vowing new direction for divided U.S. 3859 comments 4489 points 5 months ago CrowdStrike Update: Windows Bluescreen and Boot Loops 3676 comments 1058 points 4 years ago Amazon, Apple and Google Cut Off Parler 3676 comments 2498 points 3 years ago Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources 3463 comments 1765 points 2 years ago Supreme Court Overturns Roe vs. Wade 3078 comments 2747 points 3 years ago Elon Musk makes $43B unsolicited bid to take Twitter private 3065 comments 1183 points 4 years ago YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread election fraud Difference in ratios of the first and second items is notable.
- neycoda 2y agoNext up: Trump
- fahimahmed05 2y agoHow to kill your political career 101!
- greatgib 2y agoSomething that is missing in all western news that I have seen so far is why the president did that? The only info is that he said that it is to protect the democracy from north Korean supporters in the opposition, but no more details. Does anyone know which action of the opposition triggered that? And why so suddenly? Also, might it be reasonable grounds to his claims or is he just clearly using the martian law against his political opponents? Something a little bit scary around the world is that it looks like that bad guys are quite active and good at disrupting democracies and elections in free countries (France, us, Romania, moldovia, ...) whereas it looks like that the western world has really low influence to disrupt these countries for a political change.
- panda-giddiness 2y agoFrom the New York Times: "How Polarized Politics Led South Korea to a Plunge Into Martial Law" [1] > From the start [...] Mr. Yoon faced two obstacles. > The opposition Democratic Party held on to its majority in the National Assembly and then expanded it in parliamentary elections in April, making him the first South Korean leader in decades to never have a majority in Parliament. And then there were his own dismal approval ratings. > Mr. Yoon’s toxic relationship with opposition lawmakers — and their vehement efforts to oppose him at every turn — paralyzed his pro-business agenda for two years, hindering his efforts to cut corporate taxes, overhaul the national pension system and address housing prices. and also > Opposition leaders warned that Mr. Yoon was taking South Korea onto the path of “dictatorship.” In turn, members of Mr. Yoon’s party called the opposition “criminals,” and voters on the right rallied against what they called “pro-North Korean communists.” > (Mr. Yoon echoed that language on Tuesday in his declaration of martial law, saying he was issuing it “to protect a free South Korea from the North Korean communist forces, eliminate shameless pro-North Korean and anti-state forces.”) So basically, Mr. Yoon was unable to pass his agenda (as his party never had control of the legislative branch), and rather than continue to negotiate, he decided to impose martial law, label the opposition communists, and then ban the National Assembly from gathering (they gathered anyway). --- [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/03/world/asia/south-korea-yoon-martial-law.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/03/world/asia/south-korea-yo...
- OhioMan2943 2y ago