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What does this button do? – My new car has a mysterious and undocumented switch

712 points by Koenvh 2y ago

Rygian 2y ago
I wonder what should be the GDPR implications for the car dealership, selling cars that track their owner's location and not being able to confirm it, explain why it exists, or who receives the data. Unless the whole thing is disabled in absence of a registered fleet tracker key on the magnet on the right.
- spydum 2y ago
  While I'm sure they discontinued the service on whatever cellular device transmits the data back it is a curious question about the legality of if they left the service in place and continue to track the vehicle long after they sold it
K0balt 2y ago
While you do own the hardware, you probably don’t own the data, licenses, and software in the SIM so you might not be entitled to the data it transmits once it hits the carriers network.
- Rygian 2y ago
  Well,[the data it transmits] it's personal information, so the owner of the car has a very explicit right to it. (Car plates are from an EU country.)
  - K0balt 2y ago
    I don’t know how that would work, since that data is the personal information of whoever is in the car at the time of collection, so I would guess that the applicant to get the info would have to substantiate that they were in the car at the time, regardless of the ownership of the car. Or maybe just ownership of the car is enough? I kind of suspect it might not be though.
    - robin_reala 2y ago
      Other way around. The person processing the data has a duty to make sure that they have a legal basis.
    - Rygian 2y ago
      The car belongs to the individual named Koen Van Hove (as stated in the blog). He holds GDPR rights to any location data that gets sent out. Before that, if the system allowed for any correlation of location data to who was driving at that point, the exact same rights apply too for each involved driver. Only if the data controller (the entity who made the choice to put a gps tracker on the car) took specific steps to ensure the location data could not be correlated to an individual (and can prove those steps were taken), is the data safe from GDPR.
- lukan 2y ago
  It might be your smartphone, but all the data it collects, including recording audio and video is now mine, when I send it to my server. Don't you dare tamper with or even look at it! (When did crazy things like this start becoming a real thing?)
- jeroenhd 2y ago
  Legally speaking the data was recorded without consent so if the company receiving this data tries to claim ownership, they'll need to delete it anyway. However, because the author lives in a country covered by the GDPR, they have a right to receive, correct, and adjust the personal information collected on them. No need to capture the data transmitted by the system, the company is legally obligated to hand over every bit of personal information they have on the author, including any pseudomised information, in a format that's machine readable. In theory you'd be liable for racking up a bill if you use their SIM card, but I doubt it still works.
pomian 2y ago
That was a fun read. It's interesting to think that they would leave it attached. Indeed, what could you do with that? Did you find the unit that the wires go to? Then you could open that up and see what chips, sensors etc are in there.
- neuralRiot 2y ago
  Used car dealers install those as per bank requirement to find the car in case it needs to be repoed, if the customer finishes the payment it just stays in the car but the account is disabled (the dealer pays a monthly fee for nothing otherwise). So basically it’s sending location data to nobody.
justahuman74 2y ago
Aftermarket GPS tracker, for those who just want the answer quickly
ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
The metal thing looks like an ibutton / 1-wire reader, which matches the functional description given: https://www.atrack.com.tw/en/product/1-wire-ibutton-tag-reader https://www.atrack.com.tw/en/product/1-wire-ibutton-tag-read... If you have a flipper zero, maybe you could poke at it.
janstice 2y ago
I wonder if it’s a tracking off switch or a panic button? I used to work for a fleet tracking SaaS, and some customers with unionised workforces needed a way to disable tracking, and panic buttons were common too (although less so in Europe).
- caseyohara 2y ago
  What would a panic button do in this context?
  - semi-extrinsic 2y ago
    Signal to HQ "I'm being robbed" or something like this, I would guess. Around here, such a button in this place would be for the 20 000 lumen extralights. Typically for cars with xenon headlights, like this Opel, the extralights are powered via a relay that takes control signal from a can-bus adapter that extracts the high beam signal, via a manual switch like this.
hoistbypetard 2y ago
> “can I get free data from the SIM card embedded in the device that I now technically own?” That seems like the next-most-interesting question now that you've determined what the device is. Possibly followed closely by "can I use that free-to-me data in a fun way that might teach the people who installed the SIM to deactivate their devices when they sell them?" i.e. Could you send and receive enough on the connection using that SIM to cost them enough money that they'd notice it?
- TomK32 2y ago
  Even though the SIM was part of the car they bought, the SIM's contract is not in their name which means using the contract would be theft.
  - Arainach 2y ago
    Is there case law on this? I don't see any way in which this is legally theft by the OP (admittedly my knowledge is more US-centric than Euro-centric). If I let someone tether a device to my cell phone (or loan my phone to them), are they committing theft? The company on the contract voluntarily gave the SIM to OP.
    - taeric 2y ago
      Imagine it was a credit card found in the car, what are the material differences? Note the suggestion is to willfully use the device in a way.
      - JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B 2y ago
        Well, one is tied to a private bank account, the other is a privacy-violation device tied to no one.
    - staticautomatic 2y ago
      IAALBNYL it’s not theft because they’ve been abandoned and are in the new owner’s possession. If the prior owner can’t be reached and the security company which claims to own them won’t take them, they’re probably fair game.
bouke 2y ago
The switch is probably for tax reasons, to record whether you’re making a business vs personal trip. Personal trips go towards the 500 km allowance before the car is seen as indirect salary and should be taxed as such. Setting it to personal might also disable the tracking for privacy reasons.
- hexfish 2y ago
  Having seen setups like this before this is pretty likely indeed.
Kiro 2y ago
How do these things send the position? Don't they need their own cellular connection for that?
- mikestew 2y ago
  From TFA: and “can I get free data from the SIM card embedded in the device that I now technically own?”
  - Kiro 2y ago
    Doesn't that mean each car has its own subscription? Why would they keep paying for it after the car has been sold?
JSDevOps 2y ago
That was an interesting read
gr33nq 2y ago
At first glance this reminded me of some Ford Crown Victoria Police Interceptor models which had similar unlabeled buttons. One would disable all exterior lights, including brake lights, for going into stealth/surveillance mode. An adjacent button was used to be able to remove the key and keep the engine running, while preventing the car from being shifted out of park until the key was inserted again. I haven't seen either feature re-introduced in the newer Explorers or Fusions though.
- jagged-chisel 2y ago
  > … used to be able to remove the key and keep the engine running, while preventing the car from being shifted out of park … I’m pretty sure (not 100%) that new cars with contactless keys have this feature by default. You can get out (with the key) and leave it running, but the shifter won’t work until you return with the key.
  - kccqzy 2y ago
    Mine didn't. My contactless key needs to be nearby when starting the car. The shifter is independent and does not need the key.
  - gr33nq 2y ago
    I think you're right, although I've noticed that there's a timeout where newer cars automatically turns off if the key fob doesn't come back within range after so many minutes. Probably a safety feature to avoid accidental walkaways, whereas the button required a deliberate two-step action (hold down while turning and removing the key) to activate the feature.
  - akira2501 2y ago
    Contactless keys and fleet vehicles do not go well together.
    - javawizard 2y ago
      I'll bite. Why not?
gweinberg 2y ago
I think I'll pwess... the wed one.
jonah 2y ago
My car came with a similar toggle switch under the dash. I figured out it was to fully disable the ABS system. (The previous owner was a fan of taking his car two track days.) I kept accidentally toggling it off with my knee, so I replaced it with a nice flush push button. I haven't tracked the car yet though.
afh1 2y ago
The scary part is not the GPS installed by the fleet company that previously owned the car, which in all likelihood was just forgotten there, but the GPS and eSIM that comes with most (all?) new cars and that in most (all?) new cars cannot be disabled. Apart from privacy concerns of your data being used or sold by the car vendor, government outreach is also a concern. There was a bill announced in the US for all new cars to be equipped with "driver impairment" tech which was called a "kill switch". Media rushed to say it's not really a kill switch, just "sensors or cameras to monitor the driver’s behaviors, head or eye movements" and "block the driver from operating the vehicle". So... a kill switch. https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-402773429497 https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-402773429497 Anyway, I'm staying with my old gas Honda until it dies which is probably never with proper maintenance and eventually restoration. I'll never go electric. Modern cars are just smartphones on wheels at this point, and smartphones are just spying devices at this point.
- pixl97 2y ago
  The longevity of our car not only on how good you drive, but how bad others drive.
  - bluGill 2y ago
    While not false, careful defensive driving makes a big difference. But most people hate someone cutting in front of them and so won't maintain large follow ng distances
    - ddingus 2y ago
      And maintaining that proper distance can be worse! I try, and often succeed and generally see risks all around. Too close, and often with few or no escape paths means maintaining best case attention and response times for the whole drive. That is tiring and usually just not enough. Too far back means people dropping into the gap non-stop! This too is tiring. I really hate how this aspect of driving.
      - 2y ago
RajT88 2y ago
> I now know my car is being tracked still, and that they know I did try out what the car’s acceleration is like at full throttle. At 101hp, I am sure noisy, but not thrilling.
ilikeatari 2y ago
So this was a gps tracker that was installed by a fleet and never removed. The larger issue is that most car companies in the US are reselling your data on newish vehicles (2016+) anyway. I am still amazed that this is not a larger issue.
- ziddoap 2y ago
  >The larger issue is that most car companies in the US are reselling your data on newish vehicles (2016+) anyway. A fun read related to this: "Privacy Nightmare on Wheels: Every Car Brand Reviewed by Mozilla - Including Ford, Volkswagen and Toyota - Flunks Privacy Test" https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/blog/privacy-nightmare-on-wheels-every-car-brand-reviewed-by-mozilla-including-ford-volkswagen-and-toyota-flunks-privacy-test/ https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/blog/privacy-nightmare-on-... Small excerpt: >The very worst offender is Nissan. The Japanese car manufacturer admits in their privacy policy to collecting a wide range of information, including sexual activity, health diagnosis data, and genetic data — but doesn’t specify how. They say they can share and sell consumers’ “preferences, characteristics, psychological trends, predispositions, behavior, attitudes, intelligence, abilities, and aptitudes” to data brokers, law enforcement, and other third parties.
- dylan604 2y ago
  Why? It is quite clear that the mass populace just doesn't care. That's the bigger story. So many people are quite happy giving away data that they don't fully understand or even want to take time to try to understand as long as they get free/discounted service/fees and use the same equipment to keep up with the Jones. Another study should be why otherwise smart people cannot come to terms with this.
  - athrowaway3z 2y ago
    People care about privacy. But in our current telling its a hard problem to understand and the costs are too high. The costs are not talking to friends, or not driving a car. So as a coping mechanism people will convince themselves they dont care for privacy. The phenomena you're describing isn't about caring. You're describing a "trade" in the same way mobsters and conmen do.
_aavaa_ 2y ago
Meanwhile this is coming as a standard feature on many new cars, and all your data goes straight to LexisNexis.
Ccecil 2y ago
Back around 2004 a friend of mine worked at a car dealership in the Bronx that sold high end used cars. They were putting GPS trackers in all of the cars they financed so they could repossess them when the customer didn't make their payment. This was/is (from my understanding, IANAL) very illegal. They never told the customers either. The financing was ridiculous and they preyed on the people who had just enough down and didn't care what they were signing so they had a large percentage of repossessions. Made me wonder how many other shops were doing the same thing...even 20 years ago.
- gmueckl 2y ago
  Dealerships in the US have become more brazen about that practice. They won't hide that they installed the device. Instead, they will upsell you on an anti-theft device. One dealer tried to sell one to me to the tune of 600$/year. That told me that they were butchering the wiring on every brand new car that hit their lot. I walked out without a deal.
  - to11mtm 2y ago
    It's slightly more complicated than that. In most cases, Dealers don't own the cars on their lot; they are financed either by a manufacturer's financing arm e.x. FMCC, Ally (sorta), NMAC, or an independent e.x. Santander. Oftentimes, the Tracking device is part of the finance company's agreement, if not part of keeping insurance costs down. Of course, dealers are more than happy to try to charge you for -not- removing it...
  - snozolli 2y ago
    That told me that they were butchering the wiring on every brand new car that hit their lot. There's no need for butchering. All that's needed is constant 12V. Maybe an aux 12V if you need to know when the car is on. At most, they may have installed a relay to cut the fuel pump or ignition, which is no more invasive than a standard alarm installation.
watersb 2y ago
https://dogsonthe4th.com/mystery-solved/ https://dogsonthe4th.com/mystery-solved/
bitwize 2y ago
It's the magic/more magic switch.
kleiba 2y ago
As long as privacy-related misconducts are considered petty offenses, these things will just continue. Governments fail to see the implications because the virtual world is too difficult for them to understand. As long as there are no laws that actually get enforced, your privacy isn't worth anything.
- imiric 2y ago
  The problem isn't with governments. It's with people. Most people don't care about their privacy. Even if they do, the majority of that group don't care enough to give up the conveniences they get in exchange for it. This leaves a small group of people to fight for protecting their privacy, as well as of those who don't care about it. This is an uphill battle against trillion-dollar corporations and the governments they're in symbiosis with. Some governments do make an effort, but it's too little, and too ineffective to matter in the grand scheme of things. I wouldn't expect this to improve, and can easily see it getting worse. I hope I'm just being pessimistic.
  - treyd 2y ago
    I've more recently found that "laypeople" really do care about their privacy and but are unaware about what data it's possible for corporations to collect. They do rightfully uncomfortable when they have their questions answered, but feel powerless to be able to do anything about it.
    - imiric 2y ago
      That hasn't been my experience. Maybe that was the case 10+ years ago, but most people these days understand what they're giving up when using these services. The argument then becomes "I have nothing to hide", "I only use it occasionally", "What's the worst that could happen?", etc. It all boils down to them valuing the experience they're getting over their privacy. I've had these conversations with both technical and nontechnical people, and in nearly all cases I've had to argue in favor of privacy. I've yet to convince anyone to change their habits. I share and empathize with the feeling of powerlessness, but most people will choose convenience, user experience, etc. over privacy, even when there are reasonable alternatives. Hell, I will sacrifice my own privacy if a service is indispensable and there's no alternative. We can't expect people who value it less to do otherwise.
spike021 2y ago
A lot of used cars have something like this. I'm honestly more surprised OP apparently bought the car either sight unseen or without questioning this before signing any paperwork.
- toast0 2y ago
  I've got something similar on a car I bought that was previously leased. I didn't notice it while doing the test drive, but it was almost certainly there the whole time. One day, I'll try to remove it, but afaik, it doesn't do much other than sit there. Maybe it drains the battery a bit, but I think the OEM modem was probably worse... I removed that recently because I was doing work that got me halfway to removal anyway.
- ssl-3 2y ago
  I bought a used van a few years ago at a strange time: I needed a particular kind of vehicle right away, and there broadly just weren't any at a reasonable price (because chip shortage, mostly). I spent a long time (several weeks) looking, and became increasingly frustrated with what would have normally been a simple process. When one showed up at a good local dealership, I bought it. I barely looked at it first. Unusual? Probably. But those were unusual times. Anyway, it had a small metal toggle switch mounted under the dash. The old-school kind, with the metal tag painted with red and black On/Off silkscreen. I never did figure out what it was for. I had a peek more than once (of course) to see what it connected to, but it was just a Siamese pair of wires that drifted off to unseeable areas. The only other modification I could find was a very neatly-installed remote starter. And that remote start box did have a switch input (for valet mode, whatever that means), but it was not connected. (It all got ruined in a crash a couple of months ago and the purpose of the switch shall thus remain a mystery.)
  - spike021 2y ago
    Sometimes it's for a sound system or some other wired feature someone installs from aftermarket stuff. When they sell the car, it's easier to remove the added system and leave the switch.
londons_explore 2y ago
Most of those GPS trackers for corporate use require a data connection, which is probably costing someone $€£ 10/month for the line at least. Usually when you stop paying for that subscription, the line gets deactivated. So probably nobody is getting that GPS trace.
- milesvp 2y ago
  I work in this space, and I’ve seen advertised components (most likely SOCs) that had “lifetime” cell data included in the price, costing, on the order of, $50. It is becoming increasingly cheap to have low bandwidth cellular connectivity.
  - snozolli 2y ago
    Can you post an example of one of these products? I've been dabbling in this space and I'm having a hard time finding any data service under about $2 - $4 per month.
    - milesvp 2y ago
      I'm having trouble finding what I remember seeing maybe 4 years ago. It was an all in one cellular component with an esim. This is the closest I can find to what I remember seeing. It may lead you to some other solutions. https://1nce.com/en-us/1nce-connect/10-dollars-for-10-years https://1nce.com/en-us/1nce-connect/10-dollars-for-10-years I remember seeing stupidly cheap prices for cellular chips, and when I looked into it, it looked like they had bought up a bunch of bulk bandwidth on some really old tech, like 2G. The offering wasn't a lot of data per period but certainly enough to wake up and upload a small amount of data regularly. Seemed like an obvious product, I know that if I'm doing a design, I don't want to have to rely on ongoing costs. I'm surprised I can't find more hits like this one. It's possible that peak IoT led to some crazy business models that had no chance of sustaining. I think they may have banking on the network dying before having to figure out how to purchase more bandwidth. Digikey was no help. Googling "Lifetime Data Cellular Communication plan" did lead to some other potential interesting hits. chatgpt almost gave me interesting things to look for, but it mostly pointed me at consumer good. Good luck.
orliesaurus 2y ago
Anyone that has a Tesla knows what data they track? Or is it dependant on the features you have active ...
- pnw 2y ago
  There is a list at https://www.tesla.com/support/privacy https://www.tesla.com/support/privacy and you can request a copy. They state never sell or rent your data to third-parties, and sentry and dashcam data is only stored locally. They anonymize the data they do use, presumably for AI training.
  - tempest_ 2y ago
    > sentry and dashcam data is only stored locally. That must be new https://www.reuters.com/technology/tesla-workers-shared-sensitive-images-recorded-by-customer-cars-2023-04-06/ https://www.reuters.com/technology/tesla-workers-shared-sens...
    - whs 2y ago
      In that link "The company requires car owners to grant permission on the cars’ touchscreens before Tesla collects their vehicles’ data"
      - tempest_ 2y ago
        What format does that take? Is it the "Click Ok to agree to everything so you can use the app" type crap? I am reticent to give Tesla the benefit of the doubt.
        pnw 2y ago
        No, it's not. You can see the screen here. It's clearly optional. If anything, people complain they see it too often. But don't click yes if you spend time nude in your garage like the people in the original claim. https://www.teslaownersonline.com/threads/data-sharing-screen-after-update.30379/ https://www.teslaownersonline.com/threads/data-sharing-scree...
ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago
I remember reading a similar article, here, in the last year or so. It was about a mysterious box. Turned out to be some kind of remote disabler.
m3galinux 2y ago
Whoever bought my old Honda Fit is asking the same question right now; I installed a button in about the same place. They'll have fun figuring that one out. Honda Fit's AC is designed a lot more for fuel efficiency than effectiveness. So I added a resistor parallel to AC temperature sensor (and the switch inline) which makes the system think it's warmer than it really is, so it cools more. But with the risk of allowing the coil to freeze up. I called it the "AC Boost Switch".
- Ductapemaster 2y ago
  As a former Fit owner, I wish I had thought of this! The AC was really bad. We did a lot of road trips and it really struggled out on the long desert highway stretches.
- bentcorner 2y ago
  I'm not doubting your solution but at the same time would turning down the desired temperature in the car achieve the same goal?
  - m3galinux 2y ago
    Didn't help. With AC on maximum it'd still "turn off" early. Honda claimed working as designed.
  - smitelli 2y ago
    Most automotive A/C compressors are either on or off, with the engine ECU commanding an overriding “off” under hard acceleration or when fuel economy or other situations require an interruption in cooling. Some older temperature dials actually mixed the cold A/C air with the hot air from the heater core to make those in-between temperatures.
    - snozolli 2y ago
      Most automotive A/C compressors are either on or off All AC compressors are either on or off. The compressed gas is gradually released by the TXV. The drop in pressure as the gas exits the TXV is what makes it cold. Some older temperature dials actually mixed the cold A/C air with the hot air from the heater What vehicles don't do this?
prmoustache 2y ago
> Unlike the Peugeot, the Opel has gadgets - quite a few of them. It is funny because that Opel IS a Peugeot. Same group (Stellantis), and same mechanicals as the contemporary Peugeot 208 with only minor aesthetics and branding modifications.
- SoftTalker 2y ago
  I thought Opel was a GM marque?
  - prmoustache 2y ago
    It used to be but it has been until 2017 when the Stellantis group, itself a merger of PSA and Fiat Chrysler, bought them.
- deergomoo 2y ago
  And his old Peugeot (107) is also a Citroen (C1) and Toyota (1st gen Aygo). Thankfully Toyota did most of the engineering, which I think is the main reason ours is still running after minimal maintenance with > 100,000 miles on it.
geor9e 2y ago
Title should be "…My used car has a mysterious and undocumented switch…". It would be a lot more interesting if some model of new car had an undocumented switch.
urbandw311er 2y ago
> After a bit of perseverance > I figured out what it is I disagree: after failing to figure out what it was, you asked for help and somebody else figured out what it was.
ruckfool 2y ago
yes, agree to the last lines about requesting data under GDPR. I would go further and sue the company collecting data against my knowledge
doctorpangloss 2y ago
> now I'm basically driving around with a foreign GPS tracker You mean your phone?
ehnto 2y ago
I love hardware mysteries. I mostly drive old 90s enthusiast cars, and I have had my fair share of undocumented switches. The most surprising to date was in a Nissan Silvia, from 1989. Sometimes it wouldn't crank off the key, given the solution chosen it must have been a wiring issue. Instead of fixing that wiring, the previous owner had directly wired power to the starter via a "missle switch" style switch, and instead of mounting it anywhere remotely useful, it was just spliced into the loom and sat on top of the rocker cover in the engine bay. So if it wouldn't start, I had to leave the key at "on", hop out of the car, bump that switch and then it would start. Obviously standing in front of a manual car while starting it is the dumbest thing next to wiring your starter to a switch in the engine bay. Fortunately I never ran myself over. Another one, I will keep short, a 97 Skyline would only light up ready to start 1/4 times. Seemingly randomly, on key bump. Turns out the flash memory for the fuel map had corrupted, and depending on the temperature and a bit of randomness from the sensors, it would only hit a corrupted cell occasionally. It got worse and worse as more of the table corrupted, until it would only start say 1/60 key bumps. It was a dodgy power wire causing the corruption, and fixing that plus reflashing the tune fixed the issue.
butz 2y ago
NMI switch, for debugging? After reading post: Oh. That makes me wonder how many second hand cars are driving around with similar features?
assimpleaspossi 2y ago
I'm pretty sure there is no little man in a back room somewhere tracking his every move.
CalRobert 2y ago
I love my bicycle
xvilka 2y ago
I hope some day there will be a car brand that is privacy-friendly. As "dumb" as possible.
deergomoo 2y ago
Shout out to the old Peugeot 107. You’d struggle to fit your shopping in the boot/trunk, 0-60 takes several business days, the brakes are more of a suggestion to slow down, even moderate hills require dropping to second and ragging the engine (no idea what the redline is cause ours doesn’t even have a tach), and opening the passenger window requires reaching across from the driver’s side. But it was mine and my wife’s first car and we have a lot of happy memories of places that car has taken us to. Aside from the odd flat tyre and a new clutch and timing belt over the last 8 years, it’s never let us down (it was largely engineered by Toyota which certainly helps there). We got a new car at the start of this year so it doesn’t see much use now, but we’ve kept it as a second car because it’s so damn cheap to run and maintain.
nubinetwork 2y ago
I don't buy the GPS tracker explanation... they would have installed it without the switch, because why would they trust the driver to turn it on and off?
parkaboy 2y ago
I bought a new Ford F250 a few years ago and it came with a built-in fleet management service/subscription with GPS tracking. I flipped it a few months later to a dealer and I had to proactively bug them to take over the access to the service. Would have been very easy to spy on the future owner.
herczegzsolt 2y ago
More than likely an iButton reader to identify the user and a business/personal use switch. The switch basically does nothing, but tha state of it is logged in the tracking system along with the routes the car takes. In many EU countries you tax differently for personal use, so the switch is sort of important for tax reasons.
- simonjgreen 2y ago
  If you continued reading to the bottom of the article you would find validation for your hypothesis
  - kordlessagain 2y ago
    The article doesn't specifically mention iButton or one-wire systems. It just describes a metal plate "to hold a magnet next to" that's connected to a fleet tracking system for driver identification. While this is similar to how iButton/one-wire systems work, it's not fact since the article doesn't confirm the specific technology used. I have one of those buttons and readers from a project kit from a long time ago, and it's not magnetic.
    - herczegzsolt 2y ago
      I think the magnet reference is just a misleading mixup on the dealers side who was probably not familiar with iButton specifically. Very old immobiliser systems used simple reed switches and magnets - basically just pure security by obscurity. The purpose of the switch is also unconfirmed by the article, but this exact combination of cheap chinese button + ibutton reader were an extremly common retrofit into Opels in Hungary.
_madmax_ 2y ago
New car sounds like brand new car, not used car. Which have history. I found the title a bit misleading in that regard.
gcanyon 2y ago
Steven Wright: "I have this switch in my house that doesn't seem to do anything. It's in a hallway, so every time I pass it, I flip it: up, down, up, down...up...down. A few months after I got the house, a guy from Indonesia called me on the phone and said...'stop it'"
- cyberbolt23 2y ago
  ??
  - jspash 2y ago
    It's all in the delivery
    - gcanyon 2y ago
      This is certainly true. Typing that I heard his voice in my head, and laughed. I'm sure someone who's never heard Steven Wright has a much more limited response.
sandeepthroat 2y ago
[flagged]
jqpabc123 2y ago
Fake/simulated security indicator.
SilentM68 2y ago
If you press it, "They will come!"
LimeLimestone 2y ago
After looking at the photo, and before actually reading the post, I was sure it was a switch for retrofitted fog lights - they are not required in the US and you must to have them in Europe in order to pass MOT. I have an almost identical looking switch in my Mustang (which I imported from America) and it does exactly that - turns the fog lights on and off :)
xp84 2y ago
Realistically I can’t imagine the old owner would keep paying for the data connection on cars they’ve decommissioned and sold off. The device probably is just searching for a network all the time. Probably. Obviously this assumes competence, attention to detail, and responsibility with corporate funds.
graycat 2y ago
The more such evidence about new cars means the more I'm glad I got a used car, a 2001 GMC in good condition!!! Car makers: For some people your new cars can't compete with your 20+ year old used cars! Right, 20 years of changes resulted in big steps backwards. In general avoid obscurity and complexity. And instead emphasize the KISS principle -- keep it simple silly! Suggestion: For SUV models with a door in the back, some have just one door and a hinge at the top. Instead have the long common two doors, one with the hinge high and the other, low. That way, can actually have a "tailgate picnic party" and reduce the number of times a head hits the door. And there is a problem: Please return to the old round headlights, two for low beam and two more for high beam. They gave better light, didn't have a plastic covering that got cloudy, didn't have the current obscure way to replace a light that failed, and were easy to understand and aim and cheap to replace. I know, the old lights were cheap. But also remember, they were better!!!
sandeepthroat 2y ago
380 comments for "discussing" a simple fleet tracking addon. It's Saturday, get out and have fun instead, you nerds. Oh wait, that uppens your carbon etc. footprint.
MisterTea 2y ago
Soon as I saw the round thing I knew it was an iButton: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1-Wire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1-Wire I have seen them on Home Depot forklifts. Lift operators have the iButton key fob to allow the machine to stay operating. Years ago I was with a guy who though the could load our truck himself, started the lift, alarm goes off and it shuts down. Used cars can have all sorts of crap in them from mods or whatever. And who knows what abuse a used car has seen but this car was fleet maintained and GPS monitored so likely a good used car.
risenshinetech 2y ago
This entire article is clickbait. - Headline "My new car has a mysterious and undocumented switch". No, this is not a new car. This is a used car. Finding undocumented switches in a vehicle someone else owned is very common. People modify their cars all the time. Finding an undocumented switch in a new car would be wild. - "And that’s how the search comes to an end. After a bit of perseverance I figured out what it is." You literally took your car to a dealership, and the mechanic told you what it was. This ENTIRE ARTICLE boils down to this statement. You did the bare minimum to investigate what it was: took the panel off and confirmed that the wires went __somewhere__. How does this get upvoted so heavily on Hacker News?
- soueuls 2y ago
  Maybe because "My new car" does not imply that the car itself has never been used? Just that it's YOUR new car.
  - yard2010 2y ago
    That's one thing I'm very curious about: is there a way in english to differentiate between "(my new) car" (a used car which is new to me) and "(my) new car" (a new car which is mine)?
    - Sanchless 2y ago
      Usually you'd say "brand new" to signal that it's from the factory. It is quite ambiguous otherwise.
- dmazin 2y ago
  Damn, you're cranky. The original article was a good read.
- ctb_mg 2y ago
  I have to say I agree fully and it's kind of disappointing how much chaff makes it to the HN front page. This is ostensibly an interesting article, but at second glance doesn't really hold up to any scrutiny as anything really novel... folks buying used cars for decades have been doing detective work on 3rd party aftermarket modifications that have been left in. Instead, show me a door chime that has been converted to Toto's Africa using an arduino or custom fab board with STM chip.
steelframe 2y ago
My 2024 Toyota GR Corolla has a fuse that, when pulled, disables the Data Communications Module (DCM). It also disables the in-car microphone. At first I was mildly annoyed at not being able to make phone calls over a Bluetooth connection between my phone and the car's computer because of that, but the more I thought about it, I realized I was actually okay with the car's microphone also being disabled. I often put my phone into Airplane Mode when I'm not actively using it, and I prefer to avoid the distraction of a phone call while I'm driving because I'm a terrible multitasker. If it's too easy for me to receive an incoming phone call when I'm driving then I'm too likely to do it when I really shouldn't. In general I want as little data collection and reporting capability built into my car as is reasonably possible. I wish more auto manufacturers would make it as easy as Toyota did with the GRC -- and a few other of models, as I've heard -- to disable telemetry.
snthpy 2y ago
I wonder, what does this red button do ... https://youtu.be/IJNR2EpS0jw?t=107&si=4QwhQuKlWY3QAlla https://youtu.be/IJNR2EpS0jw?t=107&si=4QwhQuKlWY3QAlla
Hilift 2y ago
You have to ask about the little red button though. The only thing I find odd is that the dealer didn't notice this and remove or plug it.
yard2010 2y ago
"Why did you touch that button? What if it would make the car explode?" - my father. I never touched an undocumented button again, nor understood why someone would add a button that exploded the car when clicked.

712 points by Koenvh 2y ago

I wonder what should be the GDPR implications for the car dealership, selling cars that track their owner's location and not being able to confirm it, explain why it exists, or who receives the data. Unless the whole thing is disabled in absence of a registered fleet tracker key on the magnet on the right.

spydum 2y ago
While I'm sure they discontinued the service on whatever cellular device transmits the data back it is a curious question about the legality of if they left the service in place and continue to track the vehicle long after they sold it

K0balt 2y ago

While you do own the hardware, you probably don’t own the data, licenses, and software in the SIM so you might not be entitled to the data it transmits once it hits the carriers network.

Rygian 2y ago
Well,[the data it transmits] it's personal information, so the owner of the car has a very explicit right to it. (Car plates are from an EU country.)
- K0balt 2y ago
  I don’t know how that would work, since that data is the personal information of whoever is in the car at the time of collection, so I would guess that the applicant to get the info would have to substantiate that they were in the car at the time, regardless of the ownership of the car. Or maybe just ownership of the car is enough? I kind of suspect it might not be though.
  - robin_reala 2y ago
    Other way around. The person processing the data has a duty to make sure that they have a legal basis.
  - Rygian 2y ago
    The car belongs to the individual named Koen Van Hove (as stated in the blog). He holds GDPR rights to any location data that gets sent out. Before that, if the system allowed for any correlation of location data to who was driving at that point, the exact same rights apply too for each involved driver. Only if the data controller (the entity who made the choice to put a gps tracker on the car) took specific steps to ensure the location data could not be correlated to an individual (and can prove those steps were taken), is the data safe from GDPR.
lukan 2y ago
It might be your smartphone, but all the data it collects, including recording audio and video is now mine, when I send it to my server. Don't you dare tamper with or even look at it! (When did crazy things like this start becoming a real thing?)
jeroenhd 2y ago
Legally speaking the data was recorded without consent so if the company receiving this data tries to claim ownership, they'll need to delete it anyway. However, because the author lives in a country covered by the GDPR, they have a right to receive, correct, and adjust the personal information collected on them. No need to capture the data transmitted by the system, the company is legally obligated to hand over every bit of personal information they have on the author, including any pseudomised information, in a format that's machine readable. In theory you'd be liable for racking up a bill if you use their SIM card, but I doubt it still works.

pomian 2y ago

That was a fun read. It's interesting to think that they would leave it attached. Indeed, what could you do with that? Did you find the unit that the wires go to? Then you could open that up and see what chips, sensors etc are in there.

neuralRiot 2y ago
Used car dealers install those as per bank requirement to find the car in case it needs to be repoed, if the customer finishes the payment it just stays in the car but the account is disabled (the dealer pays a monthly fee for nothing otherwise). So basically it’s sending location data to nobody.

justahuman74 2y ago

Aftermarket GPS tracker, for those who just want the answer quickly

ImPostingOnHN 2y ago

The metal thing looks like an ibutton / 1-wire reader, which matches the functional description given: https://www.atrack.com.tw/en/product/1-wire-ibutton-tag-reader https://www.atrack.com.tw/en/product/1-wire-ibutton-tag-read... If you have a flipper zero, maybe you could poke at it.

janstice 2y ago

I wonder if it’s a tracking off switch or a panic button? I used to work for a fleet tracking SaaS, and some customers with unionised workforces needed a way to disable tracking, and panic buttons were common too (although less so in Europe).

caseyohara 2y ago
What would a panic button do in this context?
- semi-extrinsic 2y ago
  Signal to HQ "I'm being robbed" or something like this, I would guess. Around here, such a button in this place would be for the 20 000 lumen extralights. Typically for cars with xenon headlights, like this Opel, the extralights are powered via a relay that takes control signal from a can-bus adapter that extracts the high beam signal, via a manual switch like this.

hoistbypetard 2y ago

> “can I get free data from the SIM card embedded in the device that I now technically own?” That seems like the next-most-interesting question now that you've determined what the device is. Possibly followed closely by "can I use that free-to-me data in a fun way that might teach the people who installed the SIM to deactivate their devices when they sell them?" i.e. Could you send and receive enough on the connection using that SIM to cost them enough money that they'd notice it?

TomK32 2y ago
Even though the SIM was part of the car they bought, the SIM's contract is not in their name which means using the contract would be theft.
- Arainach 2y ago
  Is there case law on this? I don't see any way in which this is legally theft by the OP (admittedly my knowledge is more US-centric than Euro-centric). If I let someone tether a device to my cell phone (or loan my phone to them), are they committing theft? The company on the contract voluntarily gave the SIM to OP.
  - taeric 2y ago
    Imagine it was a credit card found in the car, what are the material differences? Note the suggestion is to willfully use the device in a way.
    - JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B 2y ago
      Well, one is tied to a private bank account, the other is a privacy-violation device tied to no one.
  - staticautomatic 2y ago
    IAALBNYL it’s not theft because they’ve been abandoned and are in the new owner’s possession. If the prior owner can’t be reached and the security company which claims to own them won’t take them, they’re probably fair game.

bouke 2y ago

The switch is probably for tax reasons, to record whether you’re making a business vs personal trip. Personal trips go towards the 500 km allowance before the car is seen as indirect salary and should be taxed as such. Setting it to personal might also disable the tracking for privacy reasons.

hexfish 2y ago
Having seen setups like this before this is pretty likely indeed.

Kiro 2y ago

How do these things send the position? Don't they need their own cellular connection for that?

mikestew 2y ago
From TFA: and “can I get free data from the SIM card embedded in the device that I now technically own?”
- Kiro 2y ago
  Doesn't that mean each car has its own subscription? Why would they keep paying for it after the car has been sold?

JSDevOps 2y ago

That was an interesting read

gr33nq 2y ago

At first glance this reminded me of some Ford Crown Victoria Police Interceptor models which had similar unlabeled buttons. One would disable all exterior lights, including brake lights, for going into stealth/surveillance mode. An adjacent button was used to be able to remove the key and keep the engine running, while preventing the car from being shifted out of park until the key was inserted again. I haven't seen either feature re-introduced in the newer Explorers or Fusions though.

jagged-chisel 2y ago
> … used to be able to remove the key and keep the engine running, while preventing the car from being shifted out of park … I’m pretty sure (not 100%) that new cars with contactless keys have this feature by default. You can get out (with the key) and leave it running, but the shifter won’t work until you return with the key.
- kccqzy 2y ago
  Mine didn't. My contactless key needs to be nearby when starting the car. The shifter is independent and does not need the key.
- gr33nq 2y ago
  I think you're right, although I've noticed that there's a timeout where newer cars automatically turns off if the key fob doesn't come back within range after so many minutes. Probably a safety feature to avoid accidental walkaways, whereas the button required a deliberate two-step action (hold down while turning and removing the key) to activate the feature.
- akira2501 2y ago
  Contactless keys and fleet vehicles do not go well together.
  - javawizard 2y ago
    I'll bite. Why not?

gweinberg 2y ago

I think I'll pwess... the wed one.

jonah 2y ago

My car came with a similar toggle switch under the dash. I figured out it was to fully disable the ABS system. (The previous owner was a fan of taking his car two track days.) I kept accidentally toggling it off with my knee, so I replaced it with a nice flush push button. I haven't tracked the car yet though.

afh1 2y ago

The scary part is not the GPS installed by the fleet company that previously owned the car, which in all likelihood was just forgotten there, but the GPS and eSIM that comes with most (all?) new cars and that in most (all?) new cars cannot be disabled. Apart from privacy concerns of your data being used or sold by the car vendor, government outreach is also a concern. There was a bill announced in the US for all new cars to be equipped with "driver impairment" tech which was called a "kill switch". Media rushed to say it's not really a kill switch, just "sensors or cameras to monitor the driver’s behaviors, head or eye movements" and "block the driver from operating the vehicle". So... a kill switch. https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-402773429497 https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-402773429497 Anyway, I'm staying with my old gas Honda until it dies which is probably never with proper maintenance and eventually restoration. I'll never go electric. Modern cars are just smartphones on wheels at this point, and smartphones are just spying devices at this point.

pixl97 2y ago
The longevity of our car not only on how good you drive, but how bad others drive.
- bluGill 2y ago
  While not false, careful defensive driving makes a big difference. But most people hate someone cutting in front of them and so won't maintain large follow ng distances
  - ddingus 2y ago
    And maintaining that proper distance can be worse! I try, and often succeed and generally see risks all around. Too close, and often with few or no escape paths means maintaining best case attention and response times for the whole drive. That is tiring and usually just not enough. Too far back means people dropping into the gap non-stop! This too is tiring. I really hate how this aspect of driving.
    - 2y ago

RajT88 2y ago

> I now know my car is being tracked still, and that they know I did try out what the car’s acceleration is like at full throttle. At 101hp, I am sure noisy, but not thrilling.

ilikeatari 2y ago

So this was a gps tracker that was installed by a fleet and never removed. The larger issue is that most car companies in the US are reselling your data on newish vehicles (2016+) anyway. I am still amazed that this is not a larger issue.

ziddoap 2y ago
>The larger issue is that most car companies in the US are reselling your data on newish vehicles (2016+) anyway. A fun read related to this: "Privacy Nightmare on Wheels: Every Car Brand Reviewed by Mozilla - Including Ford, Volkswagen and Toyota - Flunks Privacy Test" https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/blog/privacy-nightmare-on-wheels-every-car-brand-reviewed-by-mozilla-including-ford-volkswagen-and-toyota-flunks-privacy-test/ https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/blog/privacy-nightmare-on-... Small excerpt: >The very worst offender is Nissan. The Japanese car manufacturer admits in their privacy policy to collecting a wide range of information, including sexual activity, health diagnosis data, and genetic data — but doesn’t specify how. They say they can share and sell consumers’ “preferences, characteristics, psychological trends, predispositions, behavior, attitudes, intelligence, abilities, and aptitudes” to data brokers, law enforcement, and other third parties.
dylan604 2y ago
Why? It is quite clear that the mass populace just doesn't care. That's the bigger story. So many people are quite happy giving away data that they don't fully understand or even want to take time to try to understand as long as they get free/discounted service/fees and use the same equipment to keep up with the Jones. Another study should be why otherwise smart people cannot come to terms with this.
- athrowaway3z 2y ago
  People care about privacy. But in our current telling its a hard problem to understand and the costs are too high. The costs are not talking to friends, or not driving a car. So as a coping mechanism people will convince themselves they dont care for privacy. The phenomena you're describing isn't about caring. You're describing a "trade" in the same way mobsters and conmen do.

_aavaa_ 2y ago

Meanwhile this is coming as a standard feature on many new cars, and all your data goes straight to LexisNexis.

Ccecil 2y ago

Back around 2004 a friend of mine worked at a car dealership in the Bronx that sold high end used cars. They were putting GPS trackers in all of the cars they financed so they could repossess them when the customer didn't make their payment. This was/is (from my understanding, IANAL) very illegal. They never told the customers either. The financing was ridiculous and they preyed on the people who had just enough down and didn't care what they were signing so they had a large percentage of repossessions. Made me wonder how many other shops were doing the same thing...even 20 years ago.

gmueckl 2y ago
Dealerships in the US have become more brazen about that practice. They won't hide that they installed the device. Instead, they will upsell you on an anti-theft device. One dealer tried to sell one to me to the tune of 600$/year. That told me that they were butchering the wiring on every brand new car that hit their lot. I walked out without a deal.
- to11mtm 2y ago
  It's slightly more complicated than that. In most cases, Dealers don't own the cars on their lot; they are financed either by a manufacturer's financing arm e.x. FMCC, Ally (sorta), NMAC, or an independent e.x. Santander. Oftentimes, the Tracking device is part of the finance company's agreement, if not part of keeping insurance costs down. Of course, dealers are more than happy to try to charge you for -not- removing it...
- snozolli 2y ago
  That told me that they were butchering the wiring on every brand new car that hit their lot. There's no need for butchering. All that's needed is constant 12V. Maybe an aux 12V if you need to know when the car is on. At most, they may have installed a relay to cut the fuel pump or ignition, which is no more invasive than a standard alarm installation.

watersb 2y ago

https://dogsonthe4th.com/mystery-solved/ https://dogsonthe4th.com/mystery-solved/

bitwize 2y ago

It's the magic/more magic switch.

kleiba 2y ago

As long as privacy-related misconducts are considered petty offenses, these things will just continue. Governments fail to see the implications because the virtual world is too difficult for them to understand. As long as there are no laws that actually get enforced, your privacy isn't worth anything.

imiric 2y ago
The problem isn't with governments. It's with people. Most people don't care about their privacy. Even if they do, the majority of that group don't care enough to give up the conveniences they get in exchange for it. This leaves a small group of people to fight for protecting their privacy, as well as of those who don't care about it. This is an uphill battle against trillion-dollar corporations and the governments they're in symbiosis with. Some governments do make an effort, but it's too little, and too ineffective to matter in the grand scheme of things. I wouldn't expect this to improve, and can easily see it getting worse. I hope I'm just being pessimistic.
- treyd 2y ago
  I've more recently found that "laypeople" really do care about their privacy and but are unaware about what data it's possible for corporations to collect. They do rightfully uncomfortable when they have their questions answered, but feel powerless to be able to do anything about it.
  - imiric 2y ago
    That hasn't been my experience. Maybe that was the case 10+ years ago, but most people these days understand what they're giving up when using these services. The argument then becomes "I have nothing to hide", "I only use it occasionally", "What's the worst that could happen?", etc. It all boils down to them valuing the experience they're getting over their privacy. I've had these conversations with both technical and nontechnical people, and in nearly all cases I've had to argue in favor of privacy. I've yet to convince anyone to change their habits. I share and empathize with the feeling of powerlessness, but most people will choose convenience, user experience, etc. over privacy, even when there are reasonable alternatives. Hell, I will sacrifice my own privacy if a service is indispensable and there's no alternative. We can't expect people who value it less to do otherwise.

spike021 2y ago

A lot of used cars have something like this. I'm honestly more surprised OP apparently bought the car either sight unseen or without questioning this before signing any paperwork.

toast0 2y ago
I've got something similar on a car I bought that was previously leased. I didn't notice it while doing the test drive, but it was almost certainly there the whole time. One day, I'll try to remove it, but afaik, it doesn't do much other than sit there. Maybe it drains the battery a bit, but I think the OEM modem was probably worse... I removed that recently because I was doing work that got me halfway to removal anyway.
ssl-3 2y ago
I bought a used van a few years ago at a strange time: I needed a particular kind of vehicle right away, and there broadly just weren't any at a reasonable price (because chip shortage, mostly). I spent a long time (several weeks) looking, and became increasingly frustrated with what would have normally been a simple process. When one showed up at a good local dealership, I bought it. I barely looked at it first. Unusual? Probably. But those were unusual times. Anyway, it had a small metal toggle switch mounted under the dash. The old-school kind, with the metal tag painted with red and black On/Off silkscreen. I never did figure out what it was for. I had a peek more than once (of course) to see what it connected to, but it was just a Siamese pair of wires that drifted off to unseeable areas. The only other modification I could find was a very neatly-installed remote starter. And that remote start box did have a switch input (for valet mode, whatever that means), but it was not connected. (It all got ruined in a crash a couple of months ago and the purpose of the switch shall thus remain a mystery.)
- spike021 2y ago
  Sometimes it's for a sound system or some other wired feature someone installs from aftermarket stuff. When they sell the car, it's easier to remove the added system and leave the switch.

londons_explore 2y ago

Most of those GPS trackers for corporate use require a data connection, which is probably costing someone $€£ 10/month for the line at least. Usually when you stop paying for that subscription, the line gets deactivated. So probably nobody is getting that GPS trace.

milesvp 2y ago
I work in this space, and I’ve seen advertised components (most likely SOCs) that had “lifetime” cell data included in the price, costing, on the order of, $50. It is becoming increasingly cheap to have low bandwidth cellular connectivity.
- snozolli 2y ago
  Can you post an example of one of these products? I've been dabbling in this space and I'm having a hard time finding any data service under about $2 - $4 per month.
  - milesvp 2y ago
    I'm having trouble finding what I remember seeing maybe 4 years ago. It was an all in one cellular component with an esim. This is the closest I can find to what I remember seeing. It may lead you to some other solutions. https://1nce.com/en-us/1nce-connect/10-dollars-for-10-years https://1nce.com/en-us/1nce-connect/10-dollars-for-10-years I remember seeing stupidly cheap prices for cellular chips, and when I looked into it, it looked like they had bought up a bunch of bulk bandwidth on some really old tech, like 2G. The offering wasn't a lot of data per period but certainly enough to wake up and upload a small amount of data regularly. Seemed like an obvious product, I know that if I'm doing a design, I don't want to have to rely on ongoing costs. I'm surprised I can't find more hits like this one. It's possible that peak IoT led to some crazy business models that had no chance of sustaining. I think they may have banking on the network dying before having to figure out how to purchase more bandwidth. Digikey was no help. Googling "Lifetime Data Cellular Communication plan" did lead to some other potential interesting hits. chatgpt almost gave me interesting things to look for, but it mostly pointed me at consumer good. Good luck.

orliesaurus 2y ago

Anyone that has a Tesla knows what data they track? Or is it dependant on the features you have active ...

pnw 2y ago
There is a list at https://www.tesla.com/support/privacy https://www.tesla.com/support/privacy and you can request a copy. They state never sell or rent your data to third-parties, and sentry and dashcam data is only stored locally. They anonymize the data they do use, presumably for AI training.
- tempest_ 2y ago
  > sentry and dashcam data is only stored locally. That must be new https://www.reuters.com/technology/tesla-workers-shared-sensitive-images-recorded-by-customer-cars-2023-04-06/ https://www.reuters.com/technology/tesla-workers-shared-sens...
  - whs 2y ago
    In that link "The company requires car owners to grant permission on the cars’ touchscreens before Tesla collects their vehicles’ data"
    - tempest_ 2y ago
      What format does that take? Is it the "Click Ok to agree to everything so you can use the app" type crap? I am reticent to give Tesla the benefit of the doubt.
      - pnw 2y ago
        No, it's not. You can see the screen here. It's clearly optional. If anything, people complain they see it too often. But don't click yes if you spend time nude in your garage like the people in the original claim. https://www.teslaownersonline.com/threads/data-sharing-screen-after-update.30379/ https://www.teslaownersonline.com/threads/data-sharing-scree...

ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago

I remember reading a similar article, here, in the last year or so. It was about a mysterious box. Turned out to be some kind of remote disabler.

m3galinux 2y ago

Whoever bought my old Honda Fit is asking the same question right now; I installed a button in about the same place. They'll have fun figuring that one out. Honda Fit's AC is designed a lot more for fuel efficiency than effectiveness. So I added a resistor parallel to AC temperature sensor (and the switch inline) which makes the system think it's warmer than it really is, so it cools more. But with the risk of allowing the coil to freeze up. I called it the "AC Boost Switch".

Ductapemaster 2y ago
As a former Fit owner, I wish I had thought of this! The AC was really bad. We did a lot of road trips and it really struggled out on the long desert highway stretches.
bentcorner 2y ago
I'm not doubting your solution but at the same time would turning down the desired temperature in the car achieve the same goal?
- m3galinux 2y ago
  Didn't help. With AC on maximum it'd still "turn off" early. Honda claimed working as designed.
- smitelli 2y ago
  Most automotive A/C compressors are either on or off, with the engine ECU commanding an overriding “off” under hard acceleration or when fuel economy or other situations require an interruption in cooling. Some older temperature dials actually mixed the cold A/C air with the hot air from the heater core to make those in-between temperatures.
  - snozolli 2y ago
    Most automotive A/C compressors are either on or off All AC compressors are either on or off. The compressed gas is gradually released by the TXV. The drop in pressure as the gas exits the TXV is what makes it cold. Some older temperature dials actually mixed the cold A/C air with the hot air from the heater What vehicles don't do this?

prmoustache 2y ago

> Unlike the Peugeot, the Opel has gadgets - quite a few of them. It is funny because that Opel IS a Peugeot. Same group (Stellantis), and same mechanicals as the contemporary Peugeot 208 with only minor aesthetics and branding modifications.

SoftTalker 2y ago
I thought Opel was a GM marque?
- prmoustache 2y ago
  It used to be but it has been until 2017 when the Stellantis group, itself a merger of PSA and Fiat Chrysler, bought them.
deergomoo 2y ago
And his old Peugeot (107) is also a Citroen (C1) and Toyota (1st gen Aygo). Thankfully Toyota did most of the engineering, which I think is the main reason ours is still running after minimal maintenance with > 100,000 miles on it.

geor9e 2y ago

Title should be "…My used car has a mysterious and undocumented switch…". It would be a lot more interesting if some model of new car had an undocumented switch.

urbandw311er 2y ago

> After a bit of perseverance > I figured out what it is I disagree: after failing to figure out what it was, you asked for help and somebody else figured out what it was.

ruckfool 2y ago

yes, agree to the last lines about requesting data under GDPR. I would go further and sue the company collecting data against my knowledge

doctorpangloss 2y ago

> now I'm basically driving around with a foreign GPS tracker You mean your phone?

ehnto 2y ago

I love hardware mysteries. I mostly drive old 90s enthusiast cars, and I have had my fair share of undocumented switches. The most surprising to date was in a Nissan Silvia, from 1989. Sometimes it wouldn't crank off the key, given the solution chosen it must have been a wiring issue. Instead of fixing that wiring, the previous owner had directly wired power to the starter via a "missle switch" style switch, and instead of mounting it anywhere remotely useful, it was just spliced into the loom and sat on top of the rocker cover in the engine bay. So if it wouldn't start, I had to leave the key at "on", hop out of the car, bump that switch and then it would start. Obviously standing in front of a manual car while starting it is the dumbest thing next to wiring your starter to a switch in the engine bay. Fortunately I never ran myself over. Another one, I will keep short, a 97 Skyline would only light up ready to start 1/4 times. Seemingly randomly, on key bump. Turns out the flash memory for the fuel map had corrupted, and depending on the temperature and a bit of randomness from the sensors, it would only hit a corrupted cell occasionally. It got worse and worse as more of the table corrupted, until it would only start say 1/60 key bumps. It was a dodgy power wire causing the corruption, and fixing that plus reflashing the tune fixed the issue.

butz 2y ago

NMI switch, for debugging? After reading post: Oh. That makes me wonder how many second hand cars are driving around with similar features?

assimpleaspossi 2y ago

I'm pretty sure there is no little man in a back room somewhere tracking his every move.

CalRobert 2y ago

I love my bicycle

xvilka 2y ago

I hope some day there will be a car brand that is privacy-friendly. As "dumb" as possible.

deergomoo 2y ago

Shout out to the old Peugeot 107. You’d struggle to fit your shopping in the boot/trunk, 0-60 takes several business days, the brakes are more of a suggestion to slow down, even moderate hills require dropping to second and ragging the engine (no idea what the redline is cause ours doesn’t even have a tach), and opening the passenger window requires reaching across from the driver’s side. But it was mine and my wife’s first car and we have a lot of happy memories of places that car has taken us to. Aside from the odd flat tyre and a new clutch and timing belt over the last 8 years, it’s never let us down (it was largely engineered by Toyota which certainly helps there). We got a new car at the start of this year so it doesn’t see much use now, but we’ve kept it as a second car because it’s so damn cheap to run and maintain.

nubinetwork 2y ago

I don't buy the GPS tracker explanation... they would have installed it without the switch, because why would they trust the driver to turn it on and off?

parkaboy 2y ago

I bought a new Ford F250 a few years ago and it came with a built-in fleet management service/subscription with GPS tracking. I flipped it a few months later to a dealer and I had to proactively bug them to take over the access to the service. Would have been very easy to spy on the future owner.

herczegzsolt 2y ago

More than likely an iButton reader to identify the user and a business/personal use switch. The switch basically does nothing, but tha state of it is logged in the tracking system along with the routes the car takes. In many EU countries you tax differently for personal use, so the switch is sort of important for tax reasons.

simonjgreen 2y ago
If you continued reading to the bottom of the article you would find validation for your hypothesis
- kordlessagain 2y ago
  The article doesn't specifically mention iButton or one-wire systems. It just describes a metal plate "to hold a magnet next to" that's connected to a fleet tracking system for driver identification. While this is similar to how iButton/one-wire systems work, it's not fact since the article doesn't confirm the specific technology used. I have one of those buttons and readers from a project kit from a long time ago, and it's not magnetic.
  - herczegzsolt 2y ago
    I think the magnet reference is just a misleading mixup on the dealers side who was probably not familiar with iButton specifically. Very old immobiliser systems used simple reed switches and magnets - basically just pure security by obscurity. The purpose of the switch is also unconfirmed by the article, but this exact combination of cheap chinese button + ibutton reader were an extremly common retrofit into Opels in Hungary.

_madmax_ 2y ago

New car sounds like brand new car, not used car. Which have history. I found the title a bit misleading in that regard.

gcanyon 2y ago

Steven Wright: "I have this switch in my house that doesn't seem to do anything. It's in a hallway, so every time I pass it, I flip it: up, down, up, down...up...down. A few months after I got the house, a guy from Indonesia called me on the phone and said...'stop it'"

cyberbolt23 2y ago
??
- jspash 2y ago
  It's all in the delivery
  - gcanyon 2y ago
    This is certainly true. Typing that I heard his voice in my head, and laughed. I'm sure someone who's never heard Steven Wright has a much more limited response.

sandeepthroat 2y ago

[flagged]

jqpabc123 2y ago

Fake/simulated security indicator.

SilentM68 2y ago

If you press it, "They will come!"

LimeLimestone 2y ago

After looking at the photo, and before actually reading the post, I was sure it was a switch for retrofitted fog lights - they are not required in the US and you must to have them in Europe in order to pass MOT. I have an almost identical looking switch in my Mustang (which I imported from America) and it does exactly that - turns the fog lights on and off :)

xp84 2y ago

Realistically I can’t imagine the old owner would keep paying for the data connection on cars they’ve decommissioned and sold off. The device probably is just searching for a network all the time. Probably. Obviously this assumes competence, attention to detail, and responsibility with corporate funds.

graycat 2y ago

The more such evidence about new cars means the more I'm glad I got a used car, a 2001 GMC in good condition!!! Car makers: For some people your new cars can't compete with your 20+ year old used cars! Right, 20 years of changes resulted in big steps backwards. In general avoid obscurity and complexity. And instead emphasize the KISS principle -- keep it simple silly! Suggestion: For SUV models with a door in the back, some have just one door and a hinge at the top. Instead have the long common two doors, one with the hinge high and the other, low. That way, can actually have a "tailgate picnic party" and reduce the number of times a head hits the door. And there is a problem: Please return to the old round headlights, two for low beam and two more for high beam. They gave better light, didn't have a plastic covering that got cloudy, didn't have the current obscure way to replace a light that failed, and were easy to understand and aim and cheap to replace. I know, the old lights were cheap. But also remember, they were better!!!

sandeepthroat 2y ago

380 comments for "discussing" a simple fleet tracking addon. It's Saturday, get out and have fun instead, you nerds. Oh wait, that uppens your carbon etc. footprint.

MisterTea 2y ago

Soon as I saw the round thing I knew it was an iButton: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1-Wire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1-Wire I have seen them on Home Depot forklifts. Lift operators have the iButton key fob to allow the machine to stay operating. Years ago I was with a guy who though the could load our truck himself, started the lift, alarm goes off and it shuts down. Used cars can have all sorts of crap in them from mods or whatever. And who knows what abuse a used car has seen but this car was fleet maintained and GPS monitored so likely a good used car.

risenshinetech 2y ago

This entire article is clickbait. - Headline "My new car has a mysterious and undocumented switch". No, this is not a new car. This is a used car. Finding undocumented switches in a vehicle someone else owned is very common. People modify their cars all the time. Finding an undocumented switch in a new car would be wild. - "And that’s how the search comes to an end. After a bit of perseverance I figured out what it is." You literally took your car to a dealership, and the mechanic told you what it was. This ENTIRE ARTICLE boils down to this statement. You did the bare minimum to investigate what it was: took the panel off and confirmed that the wires went __somewhere__. How does this get upvoted so heavily on Hacker News?

soueuls 2y ago
Maybe because "My new car" does not imply that the car itself has never been used? Just that it's YOUR new car.
- yard2010 2y ago
  That's one thing I'm very curious about: is there a way in english to differentiate between "(my new) car" (a used car which is new to me) and "(my) new car" (a new car which is mine)?
  - Sanchless 2y ago
    Usually you'd say "brand new" to signal that it's from the factory. It is quite ambiguous otherwise.
dmazin 2y ago
Damn, you're cranky. The original article was a good read.
ctb_mg 2y ago
I have to say I agree fully and it's kind of disappointing how much chaff makes it to the HN front page. This is ostensibly an interesting article, but at second glance doesn't really hold up to any scrutiny as anything really novel... folks buying used cars for decades have been doing detective work on 3rd party aftermarket modifications that have been left in. Instead, show me a door chime that has been converted to Toto's Africa using an arduino or custom fab board with STM chip.

steelframe 2y ago

My 2024 Toyota GR Corolla has a fuse that, when pulled, disables the Data Communications Module (DCM). It also disables the in-car microphone. At first I was mildly annoyed at not being able to make phone calls over a Bluetooth connection between my phone and the car's computer because of that, but the more I thought about it, I realized I was actually okay with the car's microphone also being disabled. I often put my phone into Airplane Mode when I'm not actively using it, and I prefer to avoid the distraction of a phone call while I'm driving because I'm a terrible multitasker. If it's too easy for me to receive an incoming phone call when I'm driving then I'm too likely to do it when I really shouldn't. In general I want as little data collection and reporting capability built into my car as is reasonably possible. I wish more auto manufacturers would make it as easy as Toyota did with the GRC -- and a few other of models, as I've heard -- to disable telemetry.

snthpy 2y ago

I wonder, what does this red button do ... https://youtu.be/IJNR2EpS0jw?t=107&si=4QwhQuKlWY3QAlla https://youtu.be/IJNR2EpS0jw?t=107&si=4QwhQuKlWY3QAlla

Hilift 2y ago

You have to ask about the little red button though. The only thing I find odd is that the dealer didn't notice this and remove or plug it.

yard2010 2y ago

"Why did you touch that button? What if it would make the car explode?" - my father. I never touched an undocumented button again, nor understood why someone would add a button that exploded the car when clicked.