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Australia's 3G Shutdown – Why your 4G/5G Phone is now Blocked

268 points by the_mitsuhiko 2y ago

scubadude 2y ago
I had not been across this issue but wow this article is enlightening.
eddiewithzato 2y ago
3G is prime infrastructure, it has huge range and like the article states could be used for emergency calls. Capitalism ho!
- daveoc64 2y ago
  >3G is prime infrastructure, it has huge range Nothing about 3G (UMTS/WCDMA) technologies mean that it has more range than 2G, 4G, or 5G networks on the same frequencies. If anything, the opposite is true due to Cell Breathing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_breathing_(telephony) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_breathing_(telephony)
- ruthmarx 2y ago
  > Capitalism ho! The problem is inept government, not capitalism.
  - usr1106 2y ago
    If capitalists (and other citizens) behaved, no government would be needed.
    - ruthmarx 2y ago
      That's just true for people in general, nothing specific to capitalists.
zinekeller 2y ago
I have always maintained that VoLTE has been a deficiently-defined specification, with many, many reliability concerns whisked away in the name of VoIP (which is what LTE is). It is possible to design an IP-based system capable of actual tolerance, but with the VoLTE spec so underdefined for years, these issues crop up badly. (RCS has essentially the same problems until Google essentially monopolized it... which creates a big single-point failure problem on its own.)
whatevermang 2y ago
Okay. 3G is pretty good. No doubt about it. But from a security perspective (which I suspect is what's driving this), I think 4/5G are better. Like many instances in security, supporting legacy devices is not a desirable outcome for the security of the network as a whole. That said, for telcos/the government to unilaterally decide that people's handsets are no longer working (with little to no notice and no financial compensation) is a bit on the nose. The correct thing would be to let customers come into store with an existing plan and handset, and give them a new phone and bill that back to the government so there's no interruption to services for them. RIP 3G, you were pretty good.
- vlovich123 2y ago
  > The correct thing would be to let customers come into store with an existing plan and handset, and give them a new phone and bill that back to the government so there's no interruption to services for them. I’m not sure I agree. Why is that the right thing? It’s a politically popular approach but not clear there’s a right/wrong here. For example, people might buy second-hand 3G headsets to get brand new ones on the government’s dime.
  - andrewia 2y ago
    The exchange could be limited to only existing, paid plans. New plans would require a device compatible with the new specification. I don't think it's too hard since American phone carriers were able to offer free LTE devices to users with activated 3g devices.
    - whatevermang 2y ago
      Correct. You need an existing plan, and clearly the carrier can see what handset you are/were using. It's also the right thing to do because they are imposing a financial burden on people. People with older handsets are (I assume) likely the ones that can't afford newer ones.
- moomin 2y ago
  Feel like you need to read the article. Many of the devices affected do not fit any reasonable interpretation of the term “legacy”. It turns out 3G is in many ways superior to 4G and 5G.
causality0 2y ago
I was forced to give up my beloved OnePlus 6 barely eighteen months after buying it when AT&T shut down 3G and moved to a whitelist scheme where any phone not allowed was forbidden. I'd just moved my family off Verizon for the same reason, too. Wireless "progress" has been anything but. The 3G shutdown created dead zones where before I had adequate data connectivity. Even today I keep the 5G functionality of my phone turned off because 4G gives a consistently more reliable connection and faster data rates.
- andrewia 2y ago
  FYI, the whitelist is enforced differently with MVNOs. I was able to prove a UK Xperia 5m2 was compatible and get it allowed on a prepaid MVNO.
  - joecool1029 2y ago
    Easier to just avoid AT&T's network. I used to buy import xperia models for years and one day their system started to sweep for IMEI's not in their db. It's not a hassle I miss dealing with.
- joecool1029 2y ago
  > I'd just moved my family off Verizon for the same reason, too. You most certaintly did not leave for the same reason. AT&T is a special level of shitty with their device whitelisting. Verizon and T-Mobile do not whitelist. Verizon shut down their old CDMA network and you needed new devices. 3G WCDMA (which is what topic is discussing) was the last circuit centric standard, it actually sucked for footprint and was way more complex on the carrier end to deploy. It was so bad that when the iphone 3GS launched signal storming kept crashing out AT&T's 3G network. Haven't missed using 3G on T-Mobile but they actually still keep the 2G signal alive in their guard bands which is fun for running retro devices. > Even today I keep the 5G functionality of my phone turned off because 4G gives a consistently more reliable connection and faster data rates. Verizon and T-Mobile have enough resources on 5G now that breaking gigabit speeds is pretty common, without mmwave. I've run my primary net on wireless for most of the decade and it's improved every year as new bands get deployed. First year of 5G was not great, now it's fast and most of the spectrum is on it. However, the vonr/volte 4G/5G sip profile situation is really shit even without asshole operators doing whitelisting, it's a problem for emergency calls and probably one of the reasons t-mobile kept their 2G on air still, just as a CYA.
BLKNSLVR 2y ago
Last minute change, and leaving it up to the carriers. Bad to the power of bad. I tend to buy grey import handsets because they offer a better value proposition - by a long margin - than locally sold handsets. Allowing the carriers to define the block list only plays into their greedy little hands. I know that "band 28" support is something useful to Australians who, like me, buy handsets from overseas. The support of handsets should be based on capabilities of the device, not a seemingly arbitrary list that's under the control of the carriers. But that's what happens when last minute decisions are made.
- brokenmachine 2y ago
  I think it's less about the last minute nature and more about aligning with the incentives of corporate lobbyists. What a nice opportunity to force the sale of more overpriced local phones. Lets see what happens with the under 16 social media blocking... There's no hurry, but will it be done in the stupidest and simultaneously most invasive manner possible, and probably forced through before Christmas even though there's no pressing need? Of course.
- burnt-resistor 2y ago
  Deregulation: that sort of trickle-down economics with the funny smell that runs downhill.
alsetmusic 2y ago
> What people also don’t understand is that these compatibility issues with VoLTE Calling and Emergency Calling are Software Problems, not hardware issues. > […] > This Industry has tried to pretend that 4G devices that rely on 3G for 000 are ‘hardwired’ this way and the only solution is to buy new devices, when that could not be further from the truth. > […] > Blocking handsets is to entirely sweep the compatibility problem under the rug. > > By making this change, the industry and regulators are entirely absolved of any responsibility or accountability for failing to properly address the issues with Calling and Emergency Calling over 4G. Industry has captured government and policy throughout capitalist countries. We're at the end-stages of capitalism having any veneer of good for society. It'll just keep getting worse and worse as we pay more and corporations deliver less. Remember when you could go to the bank and there was an adequate number of tellers? Maybe that's still the case where you live. Not where I am. Remember when you could call customer service and get help within a reasonable wait time? Good luck getting to a human being without mashing the numpad and repeatedly telling the robot you want a human / operator / other. Remember when wages rose with inflation? I don't. I wasn't born early enough to experience that. But I've seen the graphs. Remember when unions had collective bargaining power? That's been true more or less for the first time in my life in recent years. It's about the only shred of hope I've got for this system. TLDR: every deal with a corporation is designed for us to lose and it will only become more so with time.
- iamtedd 2y ago
  As an aside, you wanna know what's a big fucking lie? "We are experiencing a higher than normal volume of calls."
  - melbourne_mat 2y ago
    Agree 100%. That's the default on every support number you call these days. I think it's proactive anger management on behalf of the service provider
  - alsetmusic 2y ago
    I hate that bs so much.
Quarrel 2y ago
James is doing an incredible job of documenting this issue. Everything except for his incredible documentation has either been minor anecdote ("my phone doesn't work"), or Industry & Government spin- usually misrepresentations at the least. Bravo James.
beachy 2y ago
Australia has a rich tradition of overarching, arrogant and authoritarian behavior towards the little people. Possibly a hangover from the early days of European settlement, when the majority of settlers were convicts who needed keeping an eye on and dealing with with a firm hand.
- dietr1ch 2y ago
  I really don't get it. Everytime I read about Australian technology it's an article that I'd still find believable after replacing "Australia" with "North Korea".
  - immibis 2y ago
    Australia will be the first Western country to block Tor, but I can't predict when.
    - jgord 2y ago
      well thats perfectly logical IF you want to prevent under-16s from using social media.
    - user_7832 2y ago
      If Australia becomes the first Western country to block it… it would be quite an achievement haha
      - immibis 2y ago
        The capital W is there for a reason.
    - ruthmarx 2y ago
      First with a social credit score most likely.
      - immibis 2y ago
Maxious 2y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPlTz-3estM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPlTz-3estM also looks at some experiences There's also now a tool for looking up IMEIs although as described in the video the results are wrong https://www.telstrawholesale.com.au/3G-Network-Closure-Blocked-Devices-Checker.html https://www.telstrawholesale.com.au/3G-Network-Closure-Block...
daveoc64 2y ago
This has been handled differently in the UK from a regulatory point of view from an earlier time in the rollout of 4G/5G networks, so things seem to have worked out better. In the UK, carriers are only allowed to provide coverage in any given area to a phone if it is able to make an emergency call (999/112) in that area. i.e. if the phone says you have a signal, you must be able to make an emergency call. So, for a phone to actually show you as being connected to the network: a) There must be 2G/3G coverage available for a CSFB call to take place. or b) The phone must support VoLTE (including for emergency calls). Newer LTE (and 5G) spectrum deployments, like Band 20 LTE (800MHz), are being used to provide coverage in rural areas - even in places where there is no 2G/3G coverage, therefore these newer bands are often only made available to devices that support VoLTE. If you have an old phone, that doesn't support VoLTE (including for emergency calls), then it will only connect to 4G networks in areas where there is still an overlapping 2G/3G layer. This approach means that the carriers have had an incentive to make all devices support VoLTE with emergency calling. It has also been possible for the carriers to promote the 800MHz coverage as only being available on newer phones with VoLTE. Thus much of the problems that Australia is having have been avoided. Also: Data-only devices aren't included in this requirement, as they can't/don't make emergency calls. Roaming devices aren't affected (as far as I know). UK carriers support VoLTE roaming in the USA, given the lack of 2G/3G networks for CSFB.
- noncoml 2y ago
  Maybe I’m dumb but didn’t understand how what you said about 112 calls helps incentivize carriers
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - daveoc64 2y ago
    Band 20 LTE/800MHz allows the carriers to vastly increase their coverage area for a lot less money. Customers can only access that spectrum if they have a VoLTE compatible (including emergency call) device. The carriers have legally binding landmass and population coverage goals as part of the spectrum licensing terms. The carriers can also market the fact that better rural coverage is available on newer devices. Therefore the carriers have only been selling fully VoLTE compatible devices for many years and pushing as many VoLTE-enabling software updates out as possible.
guidedlight 2y ago
It’s surprising the things that have been caught offguard by this. In Melbourne, the ticketing terminal in 200 trams and 2500 buses is now broken. https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/free-ride-as-myki-hit-with-widespread-glitches-after-3g-shutdown-20241107-p5koo6.html https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/free-ride-as-myk...
- teractiveodular 2y ago
  This is about par for course for Myki. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myki TL;DR: Melbourne spent over $1.5B developing their very own tap to pay public transport card from scratch, which was and remains slow, glitchy and is already outdated (eg doesn't support payment with contactless credit/debit cards). Meanwhile, Sydney deployed an off the shelf system from Cubic at a fraction of the cost and the rollout was about as smooth as it gets.
  - bigger_cheese 2y ago
    I don't live in either city, I have family who live in both Melbourne and Sydney so I travel to each city relatively frequently at least a couple of times a year. My experience was Melbourne had their system years before Sydney had Opal cards. I can distinctly remember first time using tap on/off card to get around Melbourne and thinking how much more convenient it was then needing to use Paper ticket machines Sydney had at the time. Wikipedia lists 2008 adoption for Melb vs 2012 for Syd that seems to align with my memory. So might have just been curse of them being an early adopter.
    - averageRoyalty 2y ago
      You're right on timing, but it wasn't that. The entire rollout was a clusterfuck. There are heaps of news articles from 2006-2008 about it.
    - quink 2y ago
      Brisbane had trials for a Cubic system in 2006 with a full rollout by 2008. It went, broadly speaking, OK. The machines at stations were a near unusable mess and the locations you could buy the cards from were ridiculously limited.
stephen_g 2y ago
How does this affect data-only devices such as modems? I don't have the IMEI unfortunately so I can't check until later with the online checker, but I have a Netgear LB2120 that I bought online (not from a carrier), it's only data and SMS, so not intended to make calls. I only use it at events (three or four weeks of the year) so haven't tried since the switch-off. I'm going to be very pretty pissed if this is blocked because of a stupidly-drafted law...
- paranoidrobot 2y ago
  If it's a carrier sold device then it's probably fine. The carriers are blocking overseas import devices that don't support VoLTE even if the device can't even make calls at all.
  - stephen_g 2y ago
    This model I don't believe was ever sold by the carriers here at all (they only ever seem interested in models with WiFi built in, and I specifically wanted just an Ethernet port). I got this one from a reseller of the manufacturer. But now I'm back at home and have access to the IMEI, I checked with the Telstra tool and it says it's "not blocked" (it also mentions it knows it's "something other than a phone" so tells me to check with the manufacturer if it supports LTE - which obviously I know it does!). Luckily sanity prevails in this case at least! Unfortunately from my experience with our Government and big companies like Telstra, I honestly completely expected they might have just blindly blocked even devices like this even though they are obviously not even able to make calls...
    - paranoidrobot 2y ago
      It might work on Telstra, but you might still run into issues if you try switching to Optus, Vodafone, or one of the MVNOs.
idunnoman1222 2y ago
[flagged]
- ben-schaaf 2y ago
  Hardly just an Android issue. North American bought iPhones don't work - these can also end up as refurbished models sold locally. This doesn't just affect grey market imports but also tourists.
  - idunnoman1222 2y ago
    iPhones all come with the same radios and they work globally that’s one of the great things about iPhones assuming they are carrier unlocked which I’m pretty sure they have been for many years globally
    - ben-schaaf 2y ago
      That's only partially true for recent iPhones. Even the latest ones don't have LTE band 71 support outside of certain countries. North American iPhone 11s don't have LTE band 28 support and so are getting banned.
- knifie_spoonie 2y ago
  Older but still otherwise perfectly functioning iPhone models have also stopped working. Let's not get into a platform war here.
  - joecool1029 2y ago
    The original iphone SE still works fine for voLTE. That's an 8 year old device. Any older and yeah they won't work. However, Android it's not so clear since it's possible to buy a recent cheap chinese phone without the correct carrier profiles that would be falling back to 3G for calls.
    - numpad0 2y ago
hilbert42 2y ago
For well over a century from the Wireless Telegraphy Act of 1905 through to AM broadcasting, to the aborted introduction of FM broadcasting in the 1940s through to installing television in the international FM band as well as in an international satellite band and also on frequencies prone to sporadic E-layer propagation Australia has screwed up radiocommunications big-time. Also, there's its inept handling of spectrum management—the inappropriate deregulation of spectrum management including the outsourcing of EMR/RF interference standards/enforcement to commercial interests which has resulted in a higher RF noise spectrum background. If that were not enough there's the inept handling of the way the country deregulated the phone/telecommunications services where inept governments of both right and left persuasions sold off the government telecommunications business (Telecom Australia [previously PMG's Dept.]) to become a public corporation, aka Telstra. In the process and to maximize profits they also sold off the cableways/rights of way that effectively nuked any decent competition (Australia being such a large country that duplicating infrastructure that was put in place over the previous 130 years or so would be an enormous undertaking and cost many billions). With Telstra now controlling and monopolizing this wealth of network infrastructure contributed by many generations of Australians the competition, Vodafone and Optus, would have to duplicate the network and that cost untold billions. Governments reaped short-term monies but the poor hapless consumers paid for it many times over and are still doing so. Right, a cableways authority to share the common resource would have made much more sense. As Australian telecommunications infrastructure has a flag-fall attached, competition is in name only. And the Government is likely to repeat the fuckup as it will sell off the NBN. The NBN/National Broadband Network/fibre was (and still is) the next almighty fuckup which books could be written about. The saga is far too long and involved to detail here but resolves around whether copper or fibre should be installed in homes. Needless to say the shortsighted short-term copper approach was adopted. Again, selling off the NBN will once again repeat the cableways problem. Greedy market forces, weak-minded and gullible politicians and a lack of technical people with commonsense and nous means Australia is set to repeat these problems over and over. Now we have this latest 3G/4G fiasco. Only two days ago I found that my standby 4G phone that I use as a backup now does not work even though the Telstra account is valid and paid up well into December this year! Over the last 30 or so years Australian citizens have paid dearly for these fuckups—duplicated cableways infrastructure and such. Heavens knows how many unnecessary billions have gone into the pockets of those who've managed to twist politicians around their little fingers. For well over a century Australia has mismanaged its radio and telecommunications services to the extent that it ought to be held up to the world as an exemplar of what NOT to do. The country's ineptitude is, frankly, beyond belief. China, if you're reading this why don't you just walk straight in and take over? The country's in too much of a shambles and disorganized to resist, and on recent evidence you're much, much better at installing nationwide infrastructure than we could ever dream of.
ClassyJacket 2y ago
I don't understand why voice calls aren't just a standard and required part of the 4g and 5g specifications?? Did they really design and implement 4g and 5g assuming 3g would never be shut down, ever?
- gruez 2y ago
  >I don't understand why voice calls aren't just a standard and required part of the 4g and 5g specifications?? They are, it's called VoLTE/VoNR. For whatever reason telcos add whitelist schemes to prevent phones from making voice calls, even if they actually support it.
  - chii 2y ago
    One of the australian telco (Telstra) is shit - they have a custom VoLTE configuration which is often not preloaded into a grey import phone. An example would be the older xiaomi phones. These phones will not be able to make VoLTE calls on the telstra network, if they're using the optus network (which is the other telco). Therefore, it is not compliant with the legislated requirement that all phones must be able to make emergency calls on any network. By blocking it, the telcos cover their ass, at the expense of the consumer having to upgrade - even if said phone was actually possible to make work with a bit of software tweaking/upgrading. Not to mention that there's an alternative way to fix this problem - create an app to make emergency calls over data network, which would work in theory (it's only voip that isnt standardized). This is exactly what india did, with their Jio app.
- daveoc64 2y ago
  It is a frustrating situation. I don't know exactly, but I think they prioritised the release of the LTE standard for data networks, and thought that voice could be sorted later.
doctor_radium 2y ago
I live in the US and have never heard of a phone that uses a different technology for emergency calls vs. normal calls. Why is this? Is it worldwide? As for the problem itself, I can understand government regulators not wanting to micro-manage the situation, but the carriers know what's on their networks, and a divide-and-conquer approach would seem capable of reducing the number of handsets to something manageable. For example, the Asus Rog phones are quite expensive, and official communication with Asus would seem enough to learn what they're capable of and what firmware upgrades may be coming. Done. In general, carriers shouldn't be blacklisting anything. If you're buying a non-carrier-branded phone, caveat emptor. But in Asus' case, at least, I expect they would try to make it right. I actually applaud the Australian government for being involved at all, as there was nary a peep from the US government and lots of people were forced to buy new phones who really didn't need them. The sin here seems to be throwing a "plan" together at the last minute.
- gruez 2y ago
  >I live in the US and have never heard of a phone that uses a different technology for emergency calls vs. normal calls. Why is this? Is it worldwide? It affects all telephone calls. Presumably people don't notice it because they use voip apps (eg. whatsapp) instead.
  - rsynnott 2y ago
    Not necessarily, per the article. Some phones can make normal calls over VoLTE, but will fail to make emergency calls over it.
- fragmede 2y ago
  Apple has a feature to use satellites to relay calls to emergency services if you're out of cell range, I forget what Google did but they did something as well.
  - cruffle_duffle 2y ago
    It isn’t calls, only texts. And you have to manually orient the phone so it is pointing at the satellite. You can’t just hold it like you normally do.
jaimex2 2y ago
It's funny that if its going to affect anyone's revenue they deal with it swiftly, ie all the smart meters got a prompt upgrade. If its going to fuck over the public no one gives a shit.
alfiedotwtf 2y ago
If you have ever worked for an Australian telco, you were not surprised at all that they would bork this planned shutdown.
sam29681749 2y ago
Not good for dumbphone enjoyers. I specifically bought a sonim xp3 because it had 4g + VoLTE. It's all very confusing, but it sounds like it won't work when I land back in Australia, regardless of whether I'm willing to switch networks.
qwery 2y ago
It's interesting to see the opinions/comments on this story (now and over the last months). The comments here are not immune but are admirably more interesting and thoughtful. Most online discussions about the shutdown tend to spiral into a government overreach / nanny state narrative. Not everything has to be explained in terms of big government, but claiming the problems associated with the shutdown are a symptom of government overreach is simply wrong. The industry has been allowed to do as they like for decade/s. The governmental failing here is a lack of foresight and a lack of regulation. The government (or ACMA, ideally) should have and exercise powers to hold the telcos to account, force them to pay for / execute notification campaigns over years, prove that emergency calls worked reliably in the first place, etc.
- trinsic2 2y ago
  Yeah, this is a good point. There's been lack of oversight in many countries in many areas for a long time and I think this year we're gonna really start to see the effects of this.
worthless-trash 2y ago
It was unsurprising the MP did not understand the problem, I've never had an exchange with an MP or a representative of an MP that didn't require 5 meetings, the basics explained ELI5, and even then any kind of action was too much work. I have given up on politicians having any use at all.
perryizgr8 2y ago
> Now on paper this may sound like a reasonable idea No it's not reasonable at all. If my phone cannot make emergency calls, why would you block other services on it? Surely it is better I can call my wife and ask her to call emergency than not being able to use the phone at all? I fail to understand how this regulation was framed and why the author thinks this makes sense.
- chii 2y ago
  It's a heavy handed method to force you to upgrade the phone.
  - ben-schaaf 2y ago
    Tell that to the 8 million or so yearly tourists who now at minimum can't make emergency calls even on brand new top-of-the-line phones due to regional modem differences.
pmontra 2y ago
If phone companies are whitelisting phone models this is an issue that won't be solved anytime soon. Maybe with one of the next generations of mobile phone standards. A couple of questions to the Australian mates here: If I enter Australia as a tourist with my phone, which worked there 5 years ago, do I probably end up with a phone that will work only on WiFi and place calls only with WhatsApp or other similar apps? I assume this is the case. What are tourists doing to workaround this problem? Do they buy the cheapest throw away phone at a phone operator shop at the airport?
- the_mitsuhiko 2y ago
  For as long as you roam and don't put a local SIM card in, you are good. If you end up adding a local non roaming SIM card you will have your phone banned on that network.
  - izacus 2y ago
    If you read to the end, some telcos even banned VoLTE on phones that were roaming on their networks. Also emergency calls aren't routed via roaming, so you are very likely to end up not being able to make a call for help.
  - pmontra 2y ago
    Thanks. When I was there in 2019 I put a local SIM in my phone. I used it to call hotels, rentals, etc. That was part of the cost of the vacation and it seems that it won't be possible anymore. I'd have to use my country's of origin SIM, a probably disable data to be safe against unexpected costs. According to the other reply to your message, my original SIM might not work. An extra phone is a bit too much, but maybe there are some very low cost phone to place calls and to use it as WiFi hotspot. Anyway, they didn't play that transition well.
darkhorn 2y ago
Can these blocked phones make phone calls over VoWiFi?
- izacus 2y ago
  Not for emergency calls.
ornornor 2y ago
And this is why self regulation by for profit companies cannot work, in case we needed yet another test to verify.
sylware 2y ago
Already full 4G IPv6 here, even on dumb mobile phones. Nothing to shutdown.
thatsit 2y ago
Well, i have to say that is one area where Germany actually shines. We shut off the stupid, power-hungry and slow 3G, but kept 2G as a basic service. That was a very good decision. All data comms can switch to 4G/5G, while voice comm can remain on 2G as backup. Low data rate devices can also use 2G/GPRS/EC-GSM.
- usr1106 2y ago
  Most countries did it that way.
- overstay8930 2y ago
  This is how it worked in the US until this year. 2G can actually work pretty well along side 4G and 5G, it never really needs to be shut down since it works in the guard bands of LTE (i.e. nothing else is using the airspace 2G occupies and never will).
aziaziazi 2y ago
> the shutdown is supposed to usher in a new age of modern high speed communications to power the modern 4G & 5G Wonder how so? Surely closing small roads don’t make the highway users go faster. > One would assume that the Shutdown of the 3G network would only impact those with phones from last decade, or those unwilling to upgrade. Even if that would be the case, how is it acceptable to impact those? What frequency of "upgrading" is expected to be obligatory in the future to allow the always newer eras?
- gruez 2y ago
  >Wonder how so? Surely closing small roads don’t make the highway users go faster. It does if closing the small road frees up space (spectrum) to widen the adjacent highway (4G/5G).
  - aziaziazi 2y ago
    Oh ok thanks that make sense. For those interested there’s a slide at 20:00 that show that very clearly: https://youtu.be/dEmDNwDBdkE https://youtu.be/dEmDNwDBdkE
markedathome 2y ago
Hugh Jeffrey's video[1] on this block demonstrates the phones might be blocked, though it seems to vary depending on phone, and which telco's SIM. Often it can block one SIM from working, whilst a similar SIM will work in slot 2. or vice versa. Or they are both blocked after rebooting. Or maybe not. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIJavqEzEIw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIJavqEzEIw at the time of writing the above video is listed in the OP article near the beginning. I believe Hugh references James' work in this and other videos covering the topic.
wkat4242 2y ago
I wonder if you can circumvent this by changing your IMEI to a range of one of the supported models? It's kinda hard to do these days though..
seoulbigchris 2y ago
It makes sense that new rules should apply to newly made/sold phones. Why not grandfather existing phones? Isn't any communication better than none in an emergency? A working phone, even if it doesn't support placing official emergency calls, would still be able to place a phone call for help. Even sending an email or WhatsApp message is better than nothing. This makes me wonder, is calling the emergency services number (911 / 119 / etc) now restricted to only such mobile phones officially supporting the protocol? This means you can't dial the emergency number from a pay phone or landline? I'm really confused about the underlying logic here.

268 points by the_mitsuhiko 2y ago

I had not been across this issue but wow this article is enlightening.

3G is prime infrastructure, it has huge range and like the article states could be used for emergency calls. Capitalism ho!

daveoc64 2y ago
>3G is prime infrastructure, it has huge range Nothing about 3G (UMTS/WCDMA) technologies mean that it has more range than 2G, 4G, or 5G networks on the same frequencies. If anything, the opposite is true due to Cell Breathing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_breathing_(telephony) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_breathing_(telephony)
ruthmarx 2y ago
> Capitalism ho! The problem is inept government, not capitalism.
- usr1106 2y ago
  If capitalists (and other citizens) behaved, no government would be needed.
  - ruthmarx 2y ago
    That's just true for people in general, nothing specific to capitalists.

zinekeller 2y ago

I have always maintained that VoLTE has been a deficiently-defined specification, with many, many reliability concerns whisked away in the name of VoIP (which is what LTE is). It is possible to design an IP-based system capable of actual tolerance, but with the VoLTE spec so underdefined for years, these issues crop up badly. (RCS has essentially the same problems until Google essentially monopolized it... which creates a big single-point failure problem on its own.)

whatevermang 2y ago

Okay. 3G is pretty good. No doubt about it. But from a security perspective (which I suspect is what's driving this), I think 4/5G are better. Like many instances in security, supporting legacy devices is not a desirable outcome for the security of the network as a whole. That said, for telcos/the government to unilaterally decide that people's handsets are no longer working (with little to no notice and no financial compensation) is a bit on the nose. The correct thing would be to let customers come into store with an existing plan and handset, and give them a new phone and bill that back to the government so there's no interruption to services for them. RIP 3G, you were pretty good.

vlovich123 2y ago
> The correct thing would be to let customers come into store with an existing plan and handset, and give them a new phone and bill that back to the government so there's no interruption to services for them. I’m not sure I agree. Why is that the right thing? It’s a politically popular approach but not clear there’s a right/wrong here. For example, people might buy second-hand 3G headsets to get brand new ones on the government’s dime.
- andrewia 2y ago
  The exchange could be limited to only existing, paid plans. New plans would require a device compatible with the new specification. I don't think it's too hard since American phone carriers were able to offer free LTE devices to users with activated 3g devices.
  - whatevermang 2y ago
    Correct. You need an existing plan, and clearly the carrier can see what handset you are/were using. It's also the right thing to do because they are imposing a financial burden on people. People with older handsets are (I assume) likely the ones that can't afford newer ones.
moomin 2y ago
Feel like you need to read the article. Many of the devices affected do not fit any reasonable interpretation of the term “legacy”. It turns out 3G is in many ways superior to 4G and 5G.

causality0 2y ago

I was forced to give up my beloved OnePlus 6 barely eighteen months after buying it when AT&T shut down 3G and moved to a whitelist scheme where any phone not allowed was forbidden. I'd just moved my family off Verizon for the same reason, too. Wireless "progress" has been anything but. The 3G shutdown created dead zones where before I had adequate data connectivity. Even today I keep the 5G functionality of my phone turned off because 4G gives a consistently more reliable connection and faster data rates.

andrewia 2y ago
FYI, the whitelist is enforced differently with MVNOs. I was able to prove a UK Xperia 5m2 was compatible and get it allowed on a prepaid MVNO.
- joecool1029 2y ago
  Easier to just avoid AT&T's network. I used to buy import xperia models for years and one day their system started to sweep for IMEI's not in their db. It's not a hassle I miss dealing with.
joecool1029 2y ago
> I'd just moved my family off Verizon for the same reason, too. You most certaintly did not leave for the same reason. AT&T is a special level of shitty with their device whitelisting. Verizon and T-Mobile do not whitelist. Verizon shut down their old CDMA network and you needed new devices. 3G WCDMA (which is what topic is discussing) was the last circuit centric standard, it actually sucked for footprint and was way more complex on the carrier end to deploy. It was so bad that when the iphone 3GS launched signal storming kept crashing out AT&T's 3G network. Haven't missed using 3G on T-Mobile but they actually still keep the 2G signal alive in their guard bands which is fun for running retro devices. > Even today I keep the 5G functionality of my phone turned off because 4G gives a consistently more reliable connection and faster data rates. Verizon and T-Mobile have enough resources on 5G now that breaking gigabit speeds is pretty common, without mmwave. I've run my primary net on wireless for most of the decade and it's improved every year as new bands get deployed. First year of 5G was not great, now it's fast and most of the spectrum is on it. However, the vonr/volte 4G/5G sip profile situation is really shit even without asshole operators doing whitelisting, it's a problem for emergency calls and probably one of the reasons t-mobile kept their 2G on air still, just as a CYA.

BLKNSLVR 2y ago

Last minute change, and leaving it up to the carriers. Bad to the power of bad. I tend to buy grey import handsets because they offer a better value proposition - by a long margin - than locally sold handsets. Allowing the carriers to define the block list only plays into their greedy little hands. I know that "band 28" support is something useful to Australians who, like me, buy handsets from overseas. The support of handsets should be based on capabilities of the device, not a seemingly arbitrary list that's under the control of the carriers. But that's what happens when last minute decisions are made.

brokenmachine 2y ago
I think it's less about the last minute nature and more about aligning with the incentives of corporate lobbyists. What a nice opportunity to force the sale of more overpriced local phones. Lets see what happens with the under 16 social media blocking... There's no hurry, but will it be done in the stupidest and simultaneously most invasive manner possible, and probably forced through before Christmas even though there's no pressing need? Of course.
burnt-resistor 2y ago
Deregulation: that sort of trickle-down economics with the funny smell that runs downhill.

alsetmusic 2y ago

> What people also don’t understand is that these compatibility issues with VoLTE Calling and Emergency Calling are Software Problems, not hardware issues. > […] > This Industry has tried to pretend that 4G devices that rely on 3G for 000 are ‘hardwired’ this way and the only solution is to buy new devices, when that could not be further from the truth. > […] > Blocking handsets is to entirely sweep the compatibility problem under the rug. > > By making this change, the industry and regulators are entirely absolved of any responsibility or accountability for failing to properly address the issues with Calling and Emergency Calling over 4G. Industry has captured government and policy throughout capitalist countries. We're at the end-stages of capitalism having any veneer of good for society. It'll just keep getting worse and worse as we pay more and corporations deliver less. Remember when you could go to the bank and there was an adequate number of tellers? Maybe that's still the case where you live. Not where I am. Remember when you could call customer service and get help within a reasonable wait time? Good luck getting to a human being without mashing the numpad and repeatedly telling the robot you want a human / operator / other. Remember when wages rose with inflation? I don't. I wasn't born early enough to experience that. But I've seen the graphs. Remember when unions had collective bargaining power? That's been true more or less for the first time in my life in recent years. It's about the only shred of hope I've got for this system. TLDR: every deal with a corporation is designed for us to lose and it will only become more so with time.

iamtedd 2y ago
As an aside, you wanna know what's a big fucking lie? "We are experiencing a higher than normal volume of calls."
- melbourne_mat 2y ago
  Agree 100%. That's the default on every support number you call these days. I think it's proactive anger management on behalf of the service provider
- alsetmusic 2y ago
  I hate that bs so much.

Quarrel 2y ago

James is doing an incredible job of documenting this issue. Everything except for his incredible documentation has either been minor anecdote ("my phone doesn't work"), or Industry & Government spin- usually misrepresentations at the least. Bravo James.

beachy 2y ago

Australia has a rich tradition of overarching, arrogant and authoritarian behavior towards the little people. Possibly a hangover from the early days of European settlement, when the majority of settlers were convicts who needed keeping an eye on and dealing with with a firm hand.

dietr1ch 2y ago
I really don't get it. Everytime I read about Australian technology it's an article that I'd still find believable after replacing "Australia" with "North Korea".
- immibis 2y ago
  Australia will be the first Western country to block Tor, but I can't predict when.
  - jgord 2y ago
    well thats perfectly logical IF you want to prevent under-16s from using social media.
  - user_7832 2y ago
    If Australia becomes the first Western country to block it… it would be quite an achievement haha
    - immibis 2y ago
      The capital W is there for a reason.
  - ruthmarx 2y ago
    First with a social credit score most likely.
    - immibis 2y ago

Maxious 2y ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPlTz-3estM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPlTz-3estM also looks at some experiences There's also now a tool for looking up IMEIs although as described in the video the results are wrong https://www.telstrawholesale.com.au/3G-Network-Closure-Blocked-Devices-Checker.html https://www.telstrawholesale.com.au/3G-Network-Closure-Block...

daveoc64 2y ago

This has been handled differently in the UK from a regulatory point of view from an earlier time in the rollout of 4G/5G networks, so things seem to have worked out better. In the UK, carriers are only allowed to provide coverage in any given area to a phone if it is able to make an emergency call (999/112) in that area. i.e. if the phone says you have a signal, you must be able to make an emergency call. So, for a phone to actually show you as being connected to the network: a) There must be 2G/3G coverage available for a CSFB call to take place. or b) The phone must support VoLTE (including for emergency calls). Newer LTE (and 5G) spectrum deployments, like Band 20 LTE (800MHz), are being used to provide coverage in rural areas - even in places where there is no 2G/3G coverage, therefore these newer bands are often only made available to devices that support VoLTE. If you have an old phone, that doesn't support VoLTE (including for emergency calls), then it will only connect to 4G networks in areas where there is still an overlapping 2G/3G layer. This approach means that the carriers have had an incentive to make all devices support VoLTE with emergency calling. It has also been possible for the carriers to promote the 800MHz coverage as only being available on newer phones with VoLTE. Thus much of the problems that Australia is having have been avoided. Also: Data-only devices aren't included in this requirement, as they can't/don't make emergency calls. Roaming devices aren't affected (as far as I know). UK carriers support VoLTE roaming in the USA, given the lack of 2G/3G networks for CSFB.

noncoml 2y ago
Maybe I’m dumb but didn’t understand how what you said about 112 calls helps incentivize carriers
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- daveoc64 2y ago
  Band 20 LTE/800MHz allows the carriers to vastly increase their coverage area for a lot less money. Customers can only access that spectrum if they have a VoLTE compatible (including emergency call) device. The carriers have legally binding landmass and population coverage goals as part of the spectrum licensing terms. The carriers can also market the fact that better rural coverage is available on newer devices. Therefore the carriers have only been selling fully VoLTE compatible devices for many years and pushing as many VoLTE-enabling software updates out as possible.

guidedlight 2y ago

It’s surprising the things that have been caught offguard by this. In Melbourne, the ticketing terminal in 200 trams and 2500 buses is now broken. https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/free-ride-as-myki-hit-with-widespread-glitches-after-3g-shutdown-20241107-p5koo6.html https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/free-ride-as-myk...

teractiveodular 2y ago
This is about par for course for Myki. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myki TL;DR: Melbourne spent over $1.5B developing their very own tap to pay public transport card from scratch, which was and remains slow, glitchy and is already outdated (eg doesn't support payment with contactless credit/debit cards). Meanwhile, Sydney deployed an off the shelf system from Cubic at a fraction of the cost and the rollout was about as smooth as it gets.
- bigger_cheese 2y ago
  I don't live in either city, I have family who live in both Melbourne and Sydney so I travel to each city relatively frequently at least a couple of times a year. My experience was Melbourne had their system years before Sydney had Opal cards. I can distinctly remember first time using tap on/off card to get around Melbourne and thinking how much more convenient it was then needing to use Paper ticket machines Sydney had at the time. Wikipedia lists 2008 adoption for Melb vs 2012 for Syd that seems to align with my memory. So might have just been curse of them being an early adopter.
  - averageRoyalty 2y ago
    You're right on timing, but it wasn't that. The entire rollout was a clusterfuck. There are heaps of news articles from 2006-2008 about it.
  - quink 2y ago
    Brisbane had trials for a Cubic system in 2006 with a full rollout by 2008. It went, broadly speaking, OK. The machines at stations were a near unusable mess and the locations you could buy the cards from were ridiculously limited.

stephen_g 2y ago

How does this affect data-only devices such as modems? I don't have the IMEI unfortunately so I can't check until later with the online checker, but I have a Netgear LB2120 that I bought online (not from a carrier), it's only data and SMS, so not intended to make calls. I only use it at events (three or four weeks of the year) so haven't tried since the switch-off. I'm going to be very pretty pissed if this is blocked because of a stupidly-drafted law...

paranoidrobot 2y ago
If it's a carrier sold device then it's probably fine. The carriers are blocking overseas import devices that don't support VoLTE even if the device can't even make calls at all.
- stephen_g 2y ago
  This model I don't believe was ever sold by the carriers here at all (they only ever seem interested in models with WiFi built in, and I specifically wanted just an Ethernet port). I got this one from a reseller of the manufacturer. But now I'm back at home and have access to the IMEI, I checked with the Telstra tool and it says it's "not blocked" (it also mentions it knows it's "something other than a phone" so tells me to check with the manufacturer if it supports LTE - which obviously I know it does!). Luckily sanity prevails in this case at least! Unfortunately from my experience with our Government and big companies like Telstra, I honestly completely expected they might have just blindly blocked even devices like this even though they are obviously not even able to make calls...
  - paranoidrobot 2y ago
    It might work on Telstra, but you might still run into issues if you try switching to Optus, Vodafone, or one of the MVNOs.

idunnoman1222 2y ago

[flagged]

ben-schaaf 2y ago
Hardly just an Android issue. North American bought iPhones don't work - these can also end up as refurbished models sold locally. This doesn't just affect grey market imports but also tourists.
- idunnoman1222 2y ago
  iPhones all come with the same radios and they work globally that’s one of the great things about iPhones assuming they are carrier unlocked which I’m pretty sure they have been for many years globally
  - ben-schaaf 2y ago
    That's only partially true for recent iPhones. Even the latest ones don't have LTE band 71 support outside of certain countries. North American iPhone 11s don't have LTE band 28 support and so are getting banned.
knifie_spoonie 2y ago
Older but still otherwise perfectly functioning iPhone models have also stopped working. Let's not get into a platform war here.
- joecool1029 2y ago
  The original iphone SE still works fine for voLTE. That's an 8 year old device. Any older and yeah they won't work. However, Android it's not so clear since it's possible to buy a recent cheap chinese phone without the correct carrier profiles that would be falling back to 3G for calls.
  - numpad0 2y ago

hilbert42 2y ago

For well over a century from the Wireless Telegraphy Act of 1905 through to AM broadcasting, to the aborted introduction of FM broadcasting in the 1940s through to installing television in the international FM band as well as in an international satellite band and also on frequencies prone to sporadic E-layer propagation Australia has screwed up radiocommunications big-time. Also, there's its inept handling of spectrum management—the inappropriate deregulation of spectrum management including the outsourcing of EMR/RF interference standards/enforcement to commercial interests which has resulted in a higher RF noise spectrum background. If that were not enough there's the inept handling of the way the country deregulated the phone/telecommunications services where inept governments of both right and left persuasions sold off the government telecommunications business (Telecom Australia [previously PMG's Dept.]) to become a public corporation, aka Telstra. In the process and to maximize profits they also sold off the cableways/rights of way that effectively nuked any decent competition (Australia being such a large country that duplicating infrastructure that was put in place over the previous 130 years or so would be an enormous undertaking and cost many billions). With Telstra now controlling and monopolizing this wealth of network infrastructure contributed by many generations of Australians the competition, Vodafone and Optus, would have to duplicate the network and that cost untold billions. Governments reaped short-term monies but the poor hapless consumers paid for it many times over and are still doing so. Right, a cableways authority to share the common resource would have made much more sense. As Australian telecommunications infrastructure has a flag-fall attached, competition is in name only. And the Government is likely to repeat the fuckup as it will sell off the NBN. The NBN/National Broadband Network/fibre was (and still is) the next almighty fuckup which books could be written about. The saga is far too long and involved to detail here but resolves around whether copper or fibre should be installed in homes. Needless to say the shortsighted short-term copper approach was adopted. Again, selling off the NBN will once again repeat the cableways problem. Greedy market forces, weak-minded and gullible politicians and a lack of technical people with commonsense and nous means Australia is set to repeat these problems over and over. Now we have this latest 3G/4G fiasco. Only two days ago I found that my standby 4G phone that I use as a backup now does not work even though the Telstra account is valid and paid up well into December this year! Over the last 30 or so years Australian citizens have paid dearly for these fuckups—duplicated cableways infrastructure and such. Heavens knows how many unnecessary billions have gone into the pockets of those who've managed to twist politicians around their little fingers. For well over a century Australia has mismanaged its radio and telecommunications services to the extent that it ought to be held up to the world as an exemplar of what NOT to do. The country's ineptitude is, frankly, beyond belief. China, if you're reading this why don't you just walk straight in and take over? The country's in too much of a shambles and disorganized to resist, and on recent evidence you're much, much better at installing nationwide infrastructure than we could ever dream of.

ClassyJacket 2y ago

I don't understand why voice calls aren't just a standard and required part of the 4g and 5g specifications?? Did they really design and implement 4g and 5g assuming 3g would never be shut down, ever?

gruez 2y ago
>I don't understand why voice calls aren't just a standard and required part of the 4g and 5g specifications?? They are, it's called VoLTE/VoNR. For whatever reason telcos add whitelist schemes to prevent phones from making voice calls, even if they actually support it.
- chii 2y ago
  One of the australian telco (Telstra) is shit - they have a custom VoLTE configuration which is often not preloaded into a grey import phone. An example would be the older xiaomi phones. These phones will not be able to make VoLTE calls on the telstra network, if they're using the optus network (which is the other telco). Therefore, it is not compliant with the legislated requirement that all phones must be able to make emergency calls on any network. By blocking it, the telcos cover their ass, at the expense of the consumer having to upgrade - even if said phone was actually possible to make work with a bit of software tweaking/upgrading. Not to mention that there's an alternative way to fix this problem - create an app to make emergency calls over data network, which would work in theory (it's only voip that isnt standardized). This is exactly what india did, with their Jio app.
daveoc64 2y ago
It is a frustrating situation. I don't know exactly, but I think they prioritised the release of the LTE standard for data networks, and thought that voice could be sorted later.

doctor_radium 2y ago

I live in the US and have never heard of a phone that uses a different technology for emergency calls vs. normal calls. Why is this? Is it worldwide? As for the problem itself, I can understand government regulators not wanting to micro-manage the situation, but the carriers know what's on their networks, and a divide-and-conquer approach would seem capable of reducing the number of handsets to something manageable. For example, the Asus Rog phones are quite expensive, and official communication with Asus would seem enough to learn what they're capable of and what firmware upgrades may be coming. Done. In general, carriers shouldn't be blacklisting anything. If you're buying a non-carrier-branded phone, caveat emptor. But in Asus' case, at least, I expect they would try to make it right. I actually applaud the Australian government for being involved at all, as there was nary a peep from the US government and lots of people were forced to buy new phones who really didn't need them. The sin here seems to be throwing a "plan" together at the last minute.

gruez 2y ago
>I live in the US and have never heard of a phone that uses a different technology for emergency calls vs. normal calls. Why is this? Is it worldwide? It affects all telephone calls. Presumably people don't notice it because they use voip apps (eg. whatsapp) instead.
- rsynnott 2y ago
  Not necessarily, per the article. Some phones can make normal calls over VoLTE, but will fail to make emergency calls over it.
fragmede 2y ago
Apple has a feature to use satellites to relay calls to emergency services if you're out of cell range, I forget what Google did but they did something as well.
- cruffle_duffle 2y ago
  It isn’t calls, only texts. And you have to manually orient the phone so it is pointing at the satellite. You can’t just hold it like you normally do.

jaimex2 2y ago

It's funny that if its going to affect anyone's revenue they deal with it swiftly, ie all the smart meters got a prompt upgrade. If its going to fuck over the public no one gives a shit.

alfiedotwtf 2y ago

If you have ever worked for an Australian telco, you were not surprised at all that they would bork this planned shutdown.

sam29681749 2y ago

Not good for dumbphone enjoyers. I specifically bought a sonim xp3 because it had 4g + VoLTE. It's all very confusing, but it sounds like it won't work when I land back in Australia, regardless of whether I'm willing to switch networks.

qwery 2y ago

It's interesting to see the opinions/comments on this story (now and over the last months). The comments here are not immune but are admirably more interesting and thoughtful. Most online discussions about the shutdown tend to spiral into a government overreach / nanny state narrative. Not everything has to be explained in terms of big government, but claiming the problems associated with the shutdown are a symptom of government overreach is simply wrong. The industry has been allowed to do as they like for decade/s. The governmental failing here is a lack of foresight and a lack of regulation. The government (or ACMA, ideally) should have and exercise powers to hold the telcos to account, force them to pay for / execute notification campaigns over years, prove that emergency calls worked reliably in the first place, etc.

trinsic2 2y ago
Yeah, this is a good point. There's been lack of oversight in many countries in many areas for a long time and I think this year we're gonna really start to see the effects of this.

worthless-trash 2y ago

It was unsurprising the MP did not understand the problem, I've never had an exchange with an MP or a representative of an MP that didn't require 5 meetings, the basics explained ELI5, and even then any kind of action was too much work. I have given up on politicians having any use at all.

perryizgr8 2y ago

> Now on paper this may sound like a reasonable idea No it's not reasonable at all. If my phone cannot make emergency calls, why would you block other services on it? Surely it is better I can call my wife and ask her to call emergency than not being able to use the phone at all? I fail to understand how this regulation was framed and why the author thinks this makes sense.

chii 2y ago
It's a heavy handed method to force you to upgrade the phone.
- ben-schaaf 2y ago
  Tell that to the 8 million or so yearly tourists who now at minimum can't make emergency calls even on brand new top-of-the-line phones due to regional modem differences.

pmontra 2y ago

If phone companies are whitelisting phone models this is an issue that won't be solved anytime soon. Maybe with one of the next generations of mobile phone standards. A couple of questions to the Australian mates here: If I enter Australia as a tourist with my phone, which worked there 5 years ago, do I probably end up with a phone that will work only on WiFi and place calls only with WhatsApp or other similar apps? I assume this is the case. What are tourists doing to workaround this problem? Do they buy the cheapest throw away phone at a phone operator shop at the airport?

the_mitsuhiko 2y ago
For as long as you roam and don't put a local SIM card in, you are good. If you end up adding a local non roaming SIM card you will have your phone banned on that network.
- izacus 2y ago
  If you read to the end, some telcos even banned VoLTE on phones that were roaming on their networks. Also emergency calls aren't routed via roaming, so you are very likely to end up not being able to make a call for help.
- pmontra 2y ago
  Thanks. When I was there in 2019 I put a local SIM in my phone. I used it to call hotels, rentals, etc. That was part of the cost of the vacation and it seems that it won't be possible anymore. I'd have to use my country's of origin SIM, a probably disable data to be safe against unexpected costs. According to the other reply to your message, my original SIM might not work. An extra phone is a bit too much, but maybe there are some very low cost phone to place calls and to use it as WiFi hotspot. Anyway, they didn't play that transition well.

darkhorn 2y ago

Can these blocked phones make phone calls over VoWiFi?

izacus 2y ago
Not for emergency calls.

ornornor 2y ago

And this is why self regulation by for profit companies cannot work, in case we needed yet another test to verify.

sylware 2y ago

Already full 4G IPv6 here, even on dumb mobile phones. Nothing to shutdown.

thatsit 2y ago

Well, i have to say that is one area where Germany actually shines. We shut off the stupid, power-hungry and slow 3G, but kept 2G as a basic service. That was a very good decision. All data comms can switch to 4G/5G, while voice comm can remain on 2G as backup. Low data rate devices can also use 2G/GPRS/EC-GSM.

usr1106 2y ago
Most countries did it that way.
overstay8930 2y ago
This is how it worked in the US until this year. 2G can actually work pretty well along side 4G and 5G, it never really needs to be shut down since it works in the guard bands of LTE (i.e. nothing else is using the airspace 2G occupies and never will).

aziaziazi 2y ago

> the shutdown is supposed to usher in a new age of modern high speed communications to power the modern 4G & 5G Wonder how so? Surely closing small roads don’t make the highway users go faster. > One would assume that the Shutdown of the 3G network would only impact those with phones from last decade, or those unwilling to upgrade. Even if that would be the case, how is it acceptable to impact those? What frequency of "upgrading" is expected to be obligatory in the future to allow the always newer eras?

gruez 2y ago
>Wonder how so? Surely closing small roads don’t make the highway users go faster. It does if closing the small road frees up space (spectrum) to widen the adjacent highway (4G/5G).
- aziaziazi 2y ago
  Oh ok thanks that make sense. For those interested there’s a slide at 20:00 that show that very clearly: https://youtu.be/dEmDNwDBdkE https://youtu.be/dEmDNwDBdkE

markedathome 2y ago

Hugh Jeffrey's video[1] on this block demonstrates the phones might be blocked, though it seems to vary depending on phone, and which telco's SIM. Often it can block one SIM from working, whilst a similar SIM will work in slot 2. or vice versa. Or they are both blocked after rebooting. Or maybe not. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIJavqEzEIw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIJavqEzEIw at the time of writing the above video is listed in the OP article near the beginning. I believe Hugh references James' work in this and other videos covering the topic.

wkat4242 2y ago

I wonder if you can circumvent this by changing your IMEI to a range of one of the supported models? It's kinda hard to do these days though..

seoulbigchris 2y ago

It makes sense that new rules should apply to newly made/sold phones. Why not grandfather existing phones? Isn't any communication better than none in an emergency? A working phone, even if it doesn't support placing official emergency calls, would still be able to place a phone call for help. Even sending an email or WhatsApp message is better than nothing. This makes me wonder, is calling the emergency services number (911 / 119 / etc) now restricted to only such mobile phones officially supporting the protocol? This means you can't dial the emergency number from a pay phone or landline? I'm really confused about the underlying logic here.