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This is an important thing to tackle too. Amazon is notorious for allowing shady practices like Sell product A for lots of 5* reviews, then change the product l

This is an important thing to tackle too. Amazon is notorious for allowing shady practices like Sell product A for lots of 5* reviews, then change the product listing to a completely different thing (which may or may not deserve 5) ... Another aspect is review solicitation. eg: ios games often pop up with their own modal of "Rate us" and if you click 5 it redirects you to app store to make a review, if you click 4 or less it redirects you to a feedback form. They grease the path for positive reviewers.

MBCook 2y ago
iOS: That’s 100% against the rules. Much like other dark patterns like forcing a sign up or location access as gating to the rest of the app. Or using notifications for advertising. Now if only Apple would enforce those (or stop doing them themselves).
- schmidtleonard 2y ago
  Unenforced rules aren't rules so much as taxes on the honest.
  - MichaelZuo 2y ago
    That’s a pretty clever phrase!
  - potato3732842 2y ago
    And a potential cudgel with which to strike those who's success is inconvenient.
  - robertlagrant 2y ago
    Also if they're selectively enforced then they are a way to discriminate.
- avandekleut 2y ago
  oof - the app we work on at my company does all of these..
  - ahoka 2y ago
    Did you just have an “Are we the baddies?” moment?
    - JacobThreeThree 2y ago
      They probably get way more reviews with the prompt, and positive ones, than without it, despite how some morally indignant outlier HN commenters would react.
      - MBCook 2y ago
        Oh they absolutely work. And given that ratings are about the only thing that matters in the App Store besides search ads, there is a huge incentive to push for it no matter how horrible it is for the user.
  - MBCook 2y ago
    Well I understand why people don’t like some of them, the truth is the vast majority of the App Store rules are really good as an end user/consumer. Unfortunately Apple doesn’t seem to care unless the rule is really good for Apple.
- rgovostes 2y ago
  I've thought about starting a page to call out the apps that abuse push notifications for ads to show that Apple isn't enforcing its rule. > 4.5.4 ... Push Notifications should not be used for promotions or direct marketing purposes unless customers have explicitly opted in to receive them via consent language displayed in your app’s UI, and you provide a method in your app for a user to opt out from receiving such messages. Abuse of these services may result in revocation of your privileges. The worst offender is DoorDash. If you turn off push ads, after you place an order it will prompt you to turn on notifications "to get the latest on your order". Agreeing turns on ads. You get the prompt even if you already have order update notifications enabled.
  - Dalewyn 2y ago
    I block every single notif from nearly every single program on my phone. The only real exceptions are my bank and brokerage and games I play everyday; you know, stuff I actually care about. I haven't lost anything from blocking the rest, and I'm not about to start allowing now. "Notif" because it's Not a question of If I will allow them, also because it's not worthy of being called by a full and proper name.
    - dgfitz 2y ago
      I just don’t install apps.
  - MBCook 2y ago
    4.5.4 was what I was thinking of when I mentioned Apple violating their own rules. They’ve gotten pretty bad about it.
    - ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago
      I got a “rate this app” popup from some Apple app (why should they even care?). Can’t remember which one, though, so it’s pure anecdata. I suspect that some dependency popped it up.
      - 2y ago
thechao 2y ago
If an app pops up a "rate us" modal, it gets a 1-star in the app store, with a note to the developer why. I don't care how great your app is.
- exe34 2y ago
  on my phone, I have play store firewalled and only allow it out when I want updates/install something. if I could be bothered with the effort, this is the kind of petty I would engage in.
- trinsic2 2y ago
  Absolutely my practice as well. App devs should never be in the business of nagging for reviews.
  - ascagnel_ 2y ago
    I don’t daily drive Android, so I’m not sure if there’s an equivalent, but iOS has a system review nag/prompt that can be disabled globally. If the app lets the system manage it (where it waits a while to see how long you’ve used it before surfacing the prompt, and doesn’t redirect sub-five-star reviews to their own internal tracking), then I’m happy to leave a genuine review. If the app violates any of these rules, I go out of my way to leave a one-star review. Don’t overrule my preferences in the name of growth hacking.
- baxtr 2y ago
  As an indie app developer this makes me really sad. We need reviews otherwise we won’t get enough downloads. Big companies can pay huge amounts on ads, we can’t and thus rely on positive reviews and ratings. Fact is that most users won’t rate unless asked. If you really like an app give it a nice review.
  - maerF0x0 2y ago
    we will, of our own accord without nagging.
rsync 2y ago
Does the new product have the same ASIN ? How could they allow this?
- skeltoac 2y ago
  New ASIN. They can take a physically unbranded product and list it under a new name brand at will. They can change the quantity or bundle. They can change an irrelevant attribute. Amazon plays ignorant. I sell a product there and some of my competitors are doing those things I listed. Their reviews are also very obviously fake. I’ve also received some obviously fake negative reviews. I’m not really holding out any hope that it’ll get better anytime soon. I just reduced my Amazon advertising spend so I can focus on other channels. Also a little bit out of spite.
greggsy 2y ago
Isn’t that against App Store TOS?
pbhjpbhj 2y ago
"Amazon is notorious for allowing shady practices" Surely, 'conspiring to/orchestrating profit through immoral practices' is a more precise statement of Amazon's activities.
- notinmykernel 2y ago
  *immoral and illegal
mrandish 2y ago
> Amazon is notorious for allowing shady practices Yes! As a heavy, long-time Amazon user I hate this and have to believe Amazon is knowingly complicit either in continuing to enable this shady vendor behavior or conveniently looking the other way. Of course, shady vendors will game whatever measures Amazon might take to prevent such tricks but it's so prevalent I don't think Amazon seriously invests in detection/prevention of 'rating swapping' on an ongoing basis anymore. Another super annoying thing Amazon enables is allowing sellers to list multiple different products (SKUs) on the same listing. This was originally intended for things like different colors or sizes of the same product but it is frequently abused by vendors to bundle quite different products into one listing and thus sharing one rating. Before they were the overwhelming market leader, Amazon used to care about and invest in the accuracy and credibility of product reviews and ratings. About 10 years ago they seemed to stop putting as much effort toward this and certainly in the past five years they don't seem to care if vendors subvert the system. I understand bad behavior can never be 100% prevented but Amazon could police and penalize it far more effectively. For example, requiring sellers above a certain volume of sales and listings to have increasingly stringent "real ID" type verification, making it harder (or at least more costly) to just relist under a new identity when caught cheating.

MBCook 2y ago

iOS: That’s 100% against the rules. Much like other dark patterns like forcing a sign up or location access as gating to the rest of the app. Or using notifications for advertising. Now if only Apple would enforce those (or stop doing them themselves).

schmidtleonard 2y ago
Unenforced rules aren't rules so much as taxes on the honest.
- MichaelZuo 2y ago
  That’s a pretty clever phrase!
- potato3732842 2y ago
  And a potential cudgel with which to strike those who's success is inconvenient.
- robertlagrant 2y ago
  Also if they're selectively enforced then they are a way to discriminate.
avandekleut 2y ago
oof - the app we work on at my company does all of these..
- ahoka 2y ago
  Did you just have an “Are we the baddies?” moment?
  - JacobThreeThree 2y ago
    They probably get way more reviews with the prompt, and positive ones, than without it, despite how some morally indignant outlier HN commenters would react.
    - MBCook 2y ago
      Oh they absolutely work. And given that ratings are about the only thing that matters in the App Store besides search ads, there is a huge incentive to push for it no matter how horrible it is for the user.
- MBCook 2y ago
  Well I understand why people don’t like some of them, the truth is the vast majority of the App Store rules are really good as an end user/consumer. Unfortunately Apple doesn’t seem to care unless the rule is really good for Apple.
rgovostes 2y ago
I've thought about starting a page to call out the apps that abuse push notifications for ads to show that Apple isn't enforcing its rule. > 4.5.4 ... Push Notifications should not be used for promotions or direct marketing purposes unless customers have explicitly opted in to receive them via consent language displayed in your app’s UI, and you provide a method in your app for a user to opt out from receiving such messages. Abuse of these services may result in revocation of your privileges. The worst offender is DoorDash. If you turn off push ads, after you place an order it will prompt you to turn on notifications "to get the latest on your order". Agreeing turns on ads. You get the prompt even if you already have order update notifications enabled.
- Dalewyn 2y ago
  I block every single notif from nearly every single program on my phone. The only real exceptions are my bank and brokerage and games I play everyday; you know, stuff I actually care about. I haven't lost anything from blocking the rest, and I'm not about to start allowing now. "Notif" because it's Not a question of If I will allow them, also because it's not worthy of being called by a full and proper name.
  - dgfitz 2y ago
    I just don’t install apps.
- MBCook 2y ago
  4.5.4 was what I was thinking of when I mentioned Apple violating their own rules. They’ve gotten pretty bad about it.
  - ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago
    I got a “rate this app” popup from some Apple app (why should they even care?). Can’t remember which one, though, so it’s pure anecdata. I suspect that some dependency popped it up.
    - 2y ago

thechao 2y ago

If an app pops up a "rate us" modal, it gets a 1-star in the app store, with a note to the developer why. I don't care how great your app is.

exe34 2y ago
on my phone, I have play store firewalled and only allow it out when I want updates/install something. if I could be bothered with the effort, this is the kind of petty I would engage in.
trinsic2 2y ago
Absolutely my practice as well. App devs should never be in the business of nagging for reviews.
- ascagnel_ 2y ago
  I don’t daily drive Android, so I’m not sure if there’s an equivalent, but iOS has a system review nag/prompt that can be disabled globally. If the app lets the system manage it (where it waits a while to see how long you’ve used it before surfacing the prompt, and doesn’t redirect sub-five-star reviews to their own internal tracking), then I’m happy to leave a genuine review. If the app violates any of these rules, I go out of my way to leave a one-star review. Don’t overrule my preferences in the name of growth hacking.
baxtr 2y ago
As an indie app developer this makes me really sad. We need reviews otherwise we won’t get enough downloads. Big companies can pay huge amounts on ads, we can’t and thus rely on positive reviews and ratings. Fact is that most users won’t rate unless asked. If you really like an app give it a nice review.
- maerF0x0 2y ago
  we will, of our own accord without nagging.

rsync 2y ago

Does the new product have the same ASIN ? How could they allow this?

skeltoac 2y ago
New ASIN. They can take a physically unbranded product and list it under a new name brand at will. They can change the quantity or bundle. They can change an irrelevant attribute. Amazon plays ignorant. I sell a product there and some of my competitors are doing those things I listed. Their reviews are also very obviously fake. I’ve also received some obviously fake negative reviews. I’m not really holding out any hope that it’ll get better anytime soon. I just reduced my Amazon advertising spend so I can focus on other channels. Also a little bit out of spite.

greggsy 2y ago

Isn’t that against App Store TOS?

pbhjpbhj 2y ago

"Amazon is notorious for allowing shady practices" Surely, 'conspiring to/orchestrating profit through immoral practices' is a more precise statement of Amazon's activities.

notinmykernel 2y ago
*immoral and illegal

mrandish 2y ago

> Amazon is notorious for allowing shady practices Yes! As a heavy, long-time Amazon user I hate this and have to believe Amazon is knowingly complicit either in continuing to enable this shady vendor behavior or conveniently looking the other way. Of course, shady vendors will game whatever measures Amazon might take to prevent such tricks but it's so prevalent I don't think Amazon seriously invests in detection/prevention of 'rating swapping' on an ongoing basis anymore. Another super annoying thing Amazon enables is allowing sellers to list multiple different products (SKUs) on the same listing. This was originally intended for things like different colors or sizes of the same product but it is frequently abused by vendors to bundle quite different products into one listing and thus sharing one rating. Before they were the overwhelming market leader, Amazon used to care about and invest in the accuracy and credibility of product reviews and ratings. About 10 years ago they seemed to stop putting as much effort toward this and certainly in the past five years they don't seem to care if vendors subvert the system. I understand bad behavior can never be 100% prevented but Amazon could police and penalize it far more effectively. For example, requiring sellers above a certain volume of sales and listings to have increasingly stringent "real ID" type verification, making it harder (or at least more costly) to just relist under a new identity when caught cheating.