9 ms·

The feds are coming for John Deere over the right to repair

576 points by rntn 2y ago

bell-cot 2y ago
It's about time! Hopefully the FTC has their scythes good and sharp, 'cause Deere most richly deserves the worst that the Feds can do to 'em.
ffujdefvjg 2y ago
Hope Deere gets what's coming to them and this sets a precedent for other companies. Next on the list should be devices remotely disabled when they're discontinued, which would have otherwise continued to work perfectly fine (like the Spotify car device).
- tmm 2y ago
  Would also like to see a ban on firmware updates and programming tools locked behind a dealer (or support contract) portal and a ban on time-restricted software licenses for hardware. In line with remote-bricking discontinued hardware, these policies only serve to generate eWaste. If you sell programmable hardware, or really anything with embedded software, you should be required to make all the tools and software available to end users (doesn’t have to be free, but shouldn’t require a subscription or support contract either) in perpetuity. Licenses to enable additional hardware features are fine, but they must be granted for the life of the device (i.e. as long as it can be kept working), not an arbitrary “we think the life of this thing is 5 years”. You should never have to keep paying to use a device you already bought.
  - zelon88 2y ago
    > You should never have to keep paying to use a device you already bought. You think that's bad? I bought a "RAM upgrade" over the phone from HAAS for a CNC machine back in 2016ish. The upgrade was from 1mb to 16mb of RAM. The technician on the phone told me to go to the machine and punch in a series of keys followed by a 21 digit code. That was my ~$2,000 RAM upgrade. The RAM was always there. It was just locked away as "reserve value" for the manufacturer.
    - 0cf8612b2e1e 2y ago
      The most upsetting version of this is when you actually have to remove hardware. “Upgrading” the machine entailed removing a certain screw from under the hood to double the performance.
    - m463 2y ago
      tesla does this stuff. For instance, I believe every car is actually running full self drive software in simuation mode. But if you pay $8k it can actually control pedals/steering. also OTA performance boosts, etc.
      - ocdtrekkie 2y ago
        Indeed, driving a Tesla is collecting training data for the company whether you benefit from it or not. (The idea you can own a Tesla is laughable, you might have the title but Elon can brick it and refuse to activate it.) They're also well-known for artificially capping battery capacity unless you buy an unlock. There have been a few stories before about them unlocking the expanded capacity for free during emergencies.
        BeFlatXIII 2y ago
        Jailbreak time when?
        yupyupyups 2y ago
        Jailbreak is a cat and mouse game, which you shouldn't have to play if buying something so expensive. The best thing to do is to not buy it in the first place.
      - Ajedi32 2y ago
        Charging for software features is fine. Tesla is spending a lot of money to develop their self driving software and its perfectly reasonable for them to expect to be paid for that. Charging to stop blocking the use of hardware features that are already present on a product you own however (like seat heaters or battery capacity), is unacceptable in my opinion. Software Freedom would solve all these problems by making it trivial for users to buy a software patch from a third party vendor for cheap that unlocks the seat heaters, thus destroying the incentive for manufactures to do stupid stuff like that in the first place.
  - m463 2y ago
    > ban on firmware updates and programming tools locked behind a dealer Tesla won't let you buy parts unless you enter the vehicle vin. I believe some other things you have to order through the tesla app. I think those kinds of requirements should be disallowed too.
    - nickff 2y ago
      The VIN requirement may be due to part (version) differences between vintages. Most automakers make few changes during production of (one year’s) model, whereas Tesla seems to make changes all the time.
      - izacus 2y ago
        Other manufacturers manage just find without this kind of block, there's really no need to jump at corporate defense like this.
        mschuster91 2y ago
        Legacy car industry has a life cycle for a model of about 6-8 years with a "refresh" in the center, so usually you can get by with model variant code(s) and construction mm/yy to find a specific spare part. Designs are locked in-between and you can't just go and swap suppliers or whatnot, which is what almost broke the neck of the entire industry back in the heyday era of covid - there was no flexibility, even if there were alternative suppliers for missing parts. Everything is solidly locked with multi-year long contracts on both sides. Tesla however, they change stuff alllll the damn time because they make so much of their stuff in-house, the vertical integration eliminates the need for rigid contracts. You absolutely need the VIN because for some differences even knowing the week of the production doesn't give sufficient resolution. By the way, legacy car makers are also shifting to that model, BMW for example doesn't deliver paper-printed sheets for which fuse in the fuse box does what for a few years now, you have to use an online service. The logistics for printing the sheets for all the variants became too complex.
        2y ago
  - potato3732842 2y ago
    >Would also like to see a ban on firmware updates and programming tools locked behind a dealer (or support contract) portal and a ban on time-restricted software licenses for hardware. Won't happen. Feds find the status quo too useful to let every tom dick and harry start wrenching on these things I'm pretty familiar with what's going on at CAT. A large part of the way all the emissions stuff that everyone (I'm talking about the customers, dealers, OEMs, the people who actually pay for things, not the online peanut gallery) hates gets enforced is that the OEM threatens the dealers that they'll cut them off from the software if they don't run a tight ship and their techs are too frequently caught doing things like plugging into vehicles outside the scope of their job, working on deleted equipment and whatnot. The dealers roll this downhill to their employees. I assume Deere is similar. Basically removing the dealers and therefore the OEM's stranglehold on software would take the teeth out of emissions enforcement.
    - titzer 2y ago
      > Basically removing the dealers and therefore the OEM's stranglehold on software would take the teeth out of emissions enforcement. I don't buy that. This strangehold is the only way that VW managed to cheat emissions for years without getting caught.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
    - Cheezmeister 2y ago
      In a world where rolling coal[1] is a thing that people do voluntarily, I submit that emissions enforcement (as it stands) is a failed experiment. It's time to rethink it from first principles. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_coal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_coal
  - hsbauauvhabzb 2y ago
    How would you implement that though? As soon as you push a law in a single state, the company will move states, over a single country and the company will move countries, and you’re not gonna get this law passed somewhere like China
    - F-Lexx 2y ago
      > and you're not gonna get this law passed somewhere like China That's exactly what embargos are for.
      - jimnotgym 2y ago
        Or at least proper regulation. If you want to import X to the US then it must comply with Y
        freedomben 2y ago
        Yes, but we should also be honest about the fact that this protectionism will have a cost. In the case of farm equipment, it means that everyone who buys food will be paying more to subsidize the protected industry. I'm not making a judgment on whether it's worth it or not, I think that depends on a lot of details, but when people throw out tariffs they are rarely honest about the fact that it's a tax that flows downstream to the end user. In some cases multiple ways, like farmers who pay higher cost for equipment due to tariffs, so production of their soybeans (or whatever) are higher, so then they needs USDA subsidies to make them price competitive for export, so there's multiple layers of taxation there to make it work.
  - datavirtue 2y ago
    I don't think it's going to happen. Too many shares of automotive companies locked up in influential institutions. The same reason Microsoft is untouchable.
  - gosub100 2y ago
    Even low-tech anti-features are insidious. They make the windows in a 3D "bubble" type shape so when you break one, they can charge you more, or use it as leverage to scare you into paying for a support plan that "covers" broken windows. If they were made out of flat panels, 3rd parties could make them, farmers could make their own, and they would be cheaper.
- artursapek 2y ago
  Hahaha I hadn’t seen that they’re discontinuing that already. It seemed like such an obvious dud when I saw them announcing it. What a waste of resources.
- grishka 2y ago
  If you buy a device, the manufacturer should retain no control over it whatsoever. There should not be technical provisions to make such control possible. Otherwise, it should be considered a rental and made very clear to you before you commit to it.
ramesh31 2y ago
If you try to lobby against the people who invented lobbying, you're gonna have a bad time.
chasil 2y ago
There was also a fatality in the last workplace strike. Deere seems to have bad relations with their employees, customers, and regulatory bodies. The shareholders should remove the board of directors. https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/money/business/2021/10/27/john-deere-strike-worker-dies-milan-illinois-uaw-picket-wednesday/8565730002/ https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/money/business/2021/...
- onlyrealcuzzo 2y ago
  The shareholders don't care about any of that if they think the board did a decent job of propping up the stock price. Firing a board is generally risky, and the shareholders probably haven't fired them because even though the board has, almost objectively, not been good - firing them is likely even worse for the stock short term, and there aren't a lot of long-term, active investors left in the world.
  - chasil 2y ago
    The board's goal was to lock-in maintenance with computer security, which failed catastrophically. All previous generations of Deere tractors have on-board electronics that can be jailbroken. https://www.theregister.com/2022/08/16/john_deere_doom/ https://www.theregister.com/2022/08/16/john_deere_doom/ Just for that failure, they should all likely be gone.
    - adventured 2y ago
      Their business is booming. That significantly overwhelms the concern you're raising. They have gone from $4.3b in operating income to $14.5b in three years, while their sales nearly doubled. That's an old industrial company boom the likes of which is almost never seen by those types of companies. By comparison what you're calling catastrophic is entirely trivial. It's not even in the room as a consideration compared to the soaring profits. Nobody is removing a whole board with that kind of profit growth.
      - worik 2y ago
seanw444 2y ago
One of the very few things I can appreciate from this administration.
- warkdarrior 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - pwillia7 2y ago
    Yeah! If the children want to lay my rail road lines for pennies, who the hell are the regulators to tell me and them we can't do that?!?!?
  - Teever 2y ago
    It isn't a free market. It is a regulated market and that regulation benefits both innovation and the producers and consumers in the market. What public interest is served by allowing companies to engage in anti-competitive and anti-consumer practices like locking people into proprietary systems? The world is a better place because regulators mandate things like interoperability in phones or requirements that auto manufacturers supply parts for 3rd party mechanics to fix vehicles.
  - KK7NIL 2y ago
    1) agricultural equipment relies on a network of local dealers to sell and maintain the equipment. For this reason, it's very hard for competition to break in. No one wants to wait 2 weeks for a part for their tractor during crop season. 2) No other manufacturers offer real choice (and the required logistics I mentioned above), so it's not something the free market will fix.
  - bhhaskin 2y ago
    Except you can't because they abuse the shit out of the paten system. The paten system was a great idea when it protected up starts from being destroyed by the competition, but now it's used by incumbents to stifle markets.
  - realce 2y ago
    Are you saying companies should be able to sell bottles of bleach as "baby formula"?
CatWChainsaw 2y ago
The Feds are coming, and I hope they keep going and going until there isn't a single product or service left that dares dictate what you can do after the transaction is complete.
- pwillia7 2y ago
  Say hello to your new Subscription products
  - Gibbon1 2y ago
    I've been rolling the idea around that perhaps if a product is encumbered by a subscription then it's not a first sale and the product counts as inventory. And gets taxed as such.
    - ddingus 2y ago
      That is exactly how it should work. If the user does not own it, someone does and the accounting should play out accordingly.
      - dylan604 2y ago
        Does it work that way for ISPs that "lease" their modems? This is the first time I've ever considered this idea that the hardware would still be inventory. Does inventory get taxed annually or monthly? Seems like the monthly lease fees would more than cover that.
        ryukoposting 2y ago
        That's a perfect example. They demand it back at the end of your contract, there's not even an option to keep it, let alone modify it. I remember reading that, back in the 50s or 60s, the phone company owned "your" phone. It was permanently attached to the wall, and you weren't allowed to do anything to alter it. Did AT&T pay taxes on those phones as inventory?
euroderf 2y ago
Ukraine was at the forefront of white hat hacking their miserable machines.
mmooss 2y ago
What happens if the GOP wins in a couple of weeks? Would there be any way these actions can be sustainable for more than a few months?
- doe_eyes 2y ago
  Following the Reagan era, the GOP had a period of wanting to reign in the federal government, but I don't think that's quite true now. Folks like Trump or DeSantis are not pro-small-government, they just want to use it to advance different social policies. In the fight between farmers and Deere, I doubt they'd side with the company. Data point: Trump's VP nominee likes what the FTC is doing - https://fortune.com/2024/08/11/jd-vance-5000-child-tax-credit-support-ftc-lina-khan-tech-regulation/ https://fortune.com/2024/08/11/jd-vance-5000-child-tax-credi...
  - NoNotTheDuo 2y ago
    Alternative data points: > Under Project 2025, the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) would be eliminated, and the Transportation Security Administration (TSA) would be privatized > The Department of Education would be eliminated and oversight of education and federal funding for education will be handed over to the states > The Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) would be eliminated and moved to the Department of Interior or the Department of Transportation if combined with the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency (CISA) > The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA)’s many regional labs and entire offices of enforcement and compliance and scientific integrity and risk information would be eliminated. > The Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) is to “privatize as much as possible” and close many hospitals and clinics. > The Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) would be taken apart and send much of its work to states and other agencies > The Department of Justice (DOJ) would lose its independence and be under control of the President > The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) would be drastically reduced and split into two entities: one gathering scientific data and one making public health recommendations and policies. Source: https://www.afge.org/article/project-2025-seeks-to-dismantle-agencies-terminate-up-to-1-million-federal-workers/ https://www.afge.org/article/project-2025-seeks-to-dismantle...
freedomben 2y ago
It's ironic that farmers (traditionally thought of as less technical people, "workers of the earth", etc) and hackers (highly technical nerds writing operating systems and engineering compatibility parts) are so connected by this issue. Some of the farmers I've talked to understand the importance ownership and right to repair better than even many engineers. That said, I think John Deere is just the asshole willing to weaponize the legal system to enforce their dreams. The real problem is laws that protect IP like the DMCA and the patent system. I'm not saying we should just delete all those, but they are in bad need of reform and enable a tremendous amount of abuse. The abuse is only going to get worse unless we treat the cause(s) rather than just the symptoms. I'm glad the feds are giving John Deere some attention, but I really hope they are going to fix the lopsided system instead of just try to bully or micro-regulate John Deere into "voluntarily" allowing more repair. If we stopped unleashing the lawyers on people for modifying or interfacing with devices they purchased, it would shift the balance of power more toward the center (whereas currently the power is almost entirely on the side of the companies). Even if you have no interest in repairing or "tinkering" with your own stuff, you should be on the side of right to repair.
- FredPret 2y ago
  Where did you get this stereotype of farmers? I’ve always though of them as business owners with special skills in growing things, auto mechanics, and logistics.
  - mcmcmc 2y ago
    People who’ve never lived in or around rural communities tend to stereotype those populations as country bumpkins. Newsmedia doesn’t help.
  - serf 2y ago
    >Where did you get this stereotype of farmers? it's not a hard guess even if you don't share the opinion ; nearly every movie where 'farmer' is a plot point demonstrates a rural-living poorly educated family living in dust-bowl conditions and barely scraping enough resource by to feed the animals. grapes of wrath, wizard of oz, of mice and men, o brother where art thou, ballad of buster scruggs -- yes it's a stereotype , but it's a common one in movies and literature.
taeric 2y ago
This will be a tough fight. I'm assuming warranty and second sale transactions will be much more complicated in some futures. In big purchases, I'd assume it would be a lot like Title Insurance on real estate? I'm curious where this will ultimately go. Feels like the best path would be a "minimal capability" set that machines need to support at basically a mechanical level? Probably gets a lot more complicated on some of the more advanced gear. Which, really doesn't help the narrative, as people try and show the basic tractors as the only thing impacted.
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 2y ago
  > second sale transactions will be much more complicated in some futures I recall a story of a person who bought a used Tesla which erroneously had some feature or another enabled -- sold by the second-hand dealer and purchased by the customer with the understanding that the car came with the feature -- until the feature was remotely disabled when someone at Tesla discovered the error.
  - taeric 2y ago
    Some of the features that are gated by cars are just silly, such that I'd want to know more about the feature before really having an opinion on this. Is why I would think a "minimal feature set" would be key. Even in this scenario, though, I would expect you'd need something like the Title Insurance to really protect people?
    - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 2y ago
      It would definitely not fall under such a feature set given that it's something that seemingly can be reasonably disabled and only otherwise increases the value of the vehicle. I recall that the buyer thought they were buying the thing with the feature and the seller thought they were selling the thing with the feature when someone uninvolved with the transaction (the original manufacturer, Tesla in this case) changed the deal after-the-fact. It seems a bit moot how one feels about the feature itself when they can observe that the people transacting seem to agree on the value of the feature. (Looks like it was something to do with Autopilot, for what it's worth. https://www.theverge.com/2020/2/6/21127243/tesla-model-s-autopilot-disabled-remotely-used-car-update https://www.theverge.com/2020/2/6/21127243/tesla-model-s-aut...)
sailfast 2y ago
A John Deere lobbying ad about how much they have contributed to manufacturing was presented right next to this article.
- pinkmuffinere 2y ago
  Ya, I got the same ad. I wonder if (1) they believe that the ad will reduce the bad-pr generated by the article, or if (2) it’s just triggering because it matches some keywords (e.g. “John Deere”). The linked page looks like it’s intended to generate good will, so I think it’s case 1. But it really comes off as tone deaf to me
  - alpaca128 2y ago
    I think all those targeted ad algorithms are effectively just really dumb. Whenever you look through the comments of a YT video criticizing a product/company you are almost guaranteed to find a dozen comments saying they got an ad from that company when the video started. But then again, what are they supposed to do when practically every corner on the internet only mentions John Deere in a negative context.
    - janalsncm 2y ago
      People may be even more likely to click on those ads if it will cost John Deere money.
      - meowster 2y ago
        Which are costs that John Deere will ultimately pass on to the consumer.
        janalsncm 2y ago
        The point is that the ad recommendation models don’t know why people are clicking the ads, they just know people click on the ads.
    - 2y ago
tlqesHG 2y ago
The investigation is going on since 2021, the filing was made public on Thursday. Only a filthy redneck conspiracy theorist would conjecture that this is populist election influence! Prepare for the comments that "Lina Khan is on a tear" and this is all not influenced by the election at all.
- dcrazy 2y ago
  It was made public because HAI filed a motion on Thursday to quash the FTC’s subpoena. Do you think HAI did that intentionally to bolster Lina Khan’s and the FTC’s public image?
calmbonsai 2y ago
I don’t know where a “bright line” needs to be drawn here wrt jurisprudence, but akin to Monsanto, I have _zero_ doubt that Deere has been crossing it for decades.
xivusr 2y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
farceSpherule 2y ago
Farming.. The ultimate form of corporate welfare.. "This is all a bit misleading. Farmers don’t want to repair their own equipment. They want to be able to call someone on a Sunday when something breaks to come fix it. Which they can’t do today due to restrictions on John Deere’s IP that limits 3rd parties from offering that service."
- colechristensen 2y ago
  There are two alternatives here: * your food is 5x more expensive as a result of protectionist tariffs * there are no protectionist tariffs and all of your food is produced in and imported from poor countries who can now use this as diplomatic leverage
- sojournerc 2y ago
  You do like eating, right? Of all the things to subsidize, food seems like a good one.
- zaphar 2y ago
  For what it's worth, if they bought the tractor I also think they should be able to call a third party on a Sunday to repair the tractor if it breaks. That is sort of how ownership is supposed to work.
farceSpherule 2y ago
"The main complaining about Deere and other brands are the guys that get mad they hacked the code for the ecu and allowed the engine to rev higher and provide more horsepower. Thus lowering the life of the engine and bypassing certain things like DEF. Then something breaks, and the dealer denies the warranty cause it's obvious they messed with the code. So then they go ape shit and say they should be able to customize their vehicle however they want. I know this cause I used to work at a dealer and this happened every season. They read up on some forum how to bypass stuff and boom, I'm replacing their engine."
- lofaszvanitt 2y ago
  Yeah, that's how the whole arms race started. Why JD didn't disseminate this fact though?
fredgrott 2y ago
some of my Uncles are farmers.... Most hate John Deere as their profits derive from cost savings in fixing their own equipment.
aucisson_masque 2y ago
I'm not and do not know American farmer so I'm asking a genuine question, why did they keep buying Deere tractors ? I know for a fact that there are competitors, in Europe we have many other brand of tractors. It would make no sense to buy something that you know you can't repair.
- nosrepa 2y ago
  I'd imagine you buy whatever color of machine you can get at your nearest dealer.
  - dbcurtis 2y ago
    Not so much nearest dealer, but nearest large repair-parts warehouse, even if you drive a few more miles to the dealer.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- colmmacc 2y ago
  I'm not a farmer, just friends with some. Driving through tiny towns in rural America you often see small-time John Deere dealerships and repair shops. They are very very well established. I've heard that they have trade-in and financing programs that are very attractive; for many farmers their only option is to go with what is local and has the minimum down up front.
- dbcurtis 2y ago
  JD has a good reputation for reliability, and at least in the area where my family farms, green tractors retain their resale value better than most. Also a well built-out dealer network for support. A key factor for my brother's operation is that a large regional JD parts depot is a 20 minute drive away. With any other brand, the mechanic might tell you: "Well, we can have the part here in two days." versus "If you drive to the depot now and pick up the part, I can have you running by the end of this afternoon." During spring planting and fall harvest, that is a big deal.
pabs3 2y ago
I hope the feds are looking at a right to repair software too, Deere is in violation of the GNU GPL due to withholding Linux kernel source code, which means you can't fix bugs in your tractors. https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2023/mar/16/john-deere-gpl-violations/ https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2023/mar/16/john-deere-gpl-vi...
roundstars 2y ago
Regarding right to repair, you can watch the Youtuber "Louis Rossmann" [1]. He repairs Macbooks and extensively talks about the importance of "Right to repair" in his Youtube channel. [1] https://www.youtube.com/@rossmanngroup https://www.youtube.com/@rossmanngroup
pvaldes 2y ago
In one of the slowest movements registered ever in the animal kingdom
sirolimus 2y ago
Credz to the farmers for fighting back
silexia 2y ago
Farmer here. John Deere and any other company that does not fully support the right to repair should go bankrupt.

576 points by rntn 2y ago

It's about time! Hopefully the FTC has their scythes good and sharp, 'cause Deere most richly deserves the worst that the Feds can do to 'em.

ffujdefvjg 2y ago

Hope Deere gets what's coming to them and this sets a precedent for other companies. Next on the list should be devices remotely disabled when they're discontinued, which would have otherwise continued to work perfectly fine (like the Spotify car device).

tmm 2y ago
Would also like to see a ban on firmware updates and programming tools locked behind a dealer (or support contract) portal and a ban on time-restricted software licenses for hardware. In line with remote-bricking discontinued hardware, these policies only serve to generate eWaste. If you sell programmable hardware, or really anything with embedded software, you should be required to make all the tools and software available to end users (doesn’t have to be free, but shouldn’t require a subscription or support contract either) in perpetuity. Licenses to enable additional hardware features are fine, but they must be granted for the life of the device (i.e. as long as it can be kept working), not an arbitrary “we think the life of this thing is 5 years”. You should never have to keep paying to use a device you already bought.
- zelon88 2y ago
  > You should never have to keep paying to use a device you already bought. You think that's bad? I bought a "RAM upgrade" over the phone from HAAS for a CNC machine back in 2016ish. The upgrade was from 1mb to 16mb of RAM. The technician on the phone told me to go to the machine and punch in a series of keys followed by a 21 digit code. That was my ~$2,000 RAM upgrade. The RAM was always there. It was just locked away as "reserve value" for the manufacturer.
  - 0cf8612b2e1e 2y ago
    The most upsetting version of this is when you actually have to remove hardware. “Upgrading” the machine entailed removing a certain screw from under the hood to double the performance.
  - m463 2y ago
    tesla does this stuff. For instance, I believe every car is actually running full self drive software in simuation mode. But if you pay $8k it can actually control pedals/steering. also OTA performance boosts, etc.
    - ocdtrekkie 2y ago
      Indeed, driving a Tesla is collecting training data for the company whether you benefit from it or not. (The idea you can own a Tesla is laughable, you might have the title but Elon can brick it and refuse to activate it.) They're also well-known for artificially capping battery capacity unless you buy an unlock. There have been a few stories before about them unlocking the expanded capacity for free during emergencies.
      - BeFlatXIII 2y ago
        Jailbreak time when?
        yupyupyups 2y ago
        Jailbreak is a cat and mouse game, which you shouldn't have to play if buying something so expensive. The best thing to do is to not buy it in the first place.
    - Ajedi32 2y ago
      Charging for software features is fine. Tesla is spending a lot of money to develop their self driving software and its perfectly reasonable for them to expect to be paid for that. Charging to stop blocking the use of hardware features that are already present on a product you own however (like seat heaters or battery capacity), is unacceptable in my opinion. Software Freedom would solve all these problems by making it trivial for users to buy a software patch from a third party vendor for cheap that unlocks the seat heaters, thus destroying the incentive for manufactures to do stupid stuff like that in the first place.
- m463 2y ago
  > ban on firmware updates and programming tools locked behind a dealer Tesla won't let you buy parts unless you enter the vehicle vin. I believe some other things you have to order through the tesla app. I think those kinds of requirements should be disallowed too.
  - nickff 2y ago
    The VIN requirement may be due to part (version) differences between vintages. Most automakers make few changes during production of (one year’s) model, whereas Tesla seems to make changes all the time.
    - izacus 2y ago
      Other manufacturers manage just find without this kind of block, there's really no need to jump at corporate defense like this.
      - mschuster91 2y ago
        Legacy car industry has a life cycle for a model of about 6-8 years with a "refresh" in the center, so usually you can get by with model variant code(s) and construction mm/yy to find a specific spare part. Designs are locked in-between and you can't just go and swap suppliers or whatnot, which is what almost broke the neck of the entire industry back in the heyday era of covid - there was no flexibility, even if there were alternative suppliers for missing parts. Everything is solidly locked with multi-year long contracts on both sides. Tesla however, they change stuff alllll the damn time because they make so much of their stuff in-house, the vertical integration eliminates the need for rigid contracts. You absolutely need the VIN because for some differences even knowing the week of the production doesn't give sufficient resolution. By the way, legacy car makers are also shifting to that model, BMW for example doesn't deliver paper-printed sheets for which fuse in the fuse box does what for a few years now, you have to use an online service. The logistics for printing the sheets for all the variants became too complex.
        2y ago
- potato3732842 2y ago
  >Would also like to see a ban on firmware updates and programming tools locked behind a dealer (or support contract) portal and a ban on time-restricted software licenses for hardware. Won't happen. Feds find the status quo too useful to let every tom dick and harry start wrenching on these things I'm pretty familiar with what's going on at CAT. A large part of the way all the emissions stuff that everyone (I'm talking about the customers, dealers, OEMs, the people who actually pay for things, not the online peanut gallery) hates gets enforced is that the OEM threatens the dealers that they'll cut them off from the software if they don't run a tight ship and their techs are too frequently caught doing things like plugging into vehicles outside the scope of their job, working on deleted equipment and whatnot. The dealers roll this downhill to their employees. I assume Deere is similar. Basically removing the dealers and therefore the OEM's stranglehold on software would take the teeth out of emissions enforcement.
  - titzer 2y ago
    > Basically removing the dealers and therefore the OEM's stranglehold on software would take the teeth out of emissions enforcement. I don't buy that. This strangehold is the only way that VW managed to cheat emissions for years without getting caught.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
  - Cheezmeister 2y ago
    In a world where rolling coal[1] is a thing that people do voluntarily, I submit that emissions enforcement (as it stands) is a failed experiment. It's time to rethink it from first principles. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_coal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_coal
- hsbauauvhabzb 2y ago
  How would you implement that though? As soon as you push a law in a single state, the company will move states, over a single country and the company will move countries, and you’re not gonna get this law passed somewhere like China
  - F-Lexx 2y ago
    > and you're not gonna get this law passed somewhere like China That's exactly what embargos are for.
    - jimnotgym 2y ago
      Or at least proper regulation. If you want to import X to the US then it must comply with Y
      - freedomben 2y ago
        Yes, but we should also be honest about the fact that this protectionism will have a cost. In the case of farm equipment, it means that everyone who buys food will be paying more to subsidize the protected industry. I'm not making a judgment on whether it's worth it or not, I think that depends on a lot of details, but when people throw out tariffs they are rarely honest about the fact that it's a tax that flows downstream to the end user. In some cases multiple ways, like farmers who pay higher cost for equipment due to tariffs, so production of their soybeans (or whatever) are higher, so then they needs USDA subsidies to make them price competitive for export, so there's multiple layers of taxation there to make it work.
- datavirtue 2y ago
  I don't think it's going to happen. Too many shares of automotive companies locked up in influential institutions. The same reason Microsoft is untouchable.
- gosub100 2y ago
  Even low-tech anti-features are insidious. They make the windows in a 3D "bubble" type shape so when you break one, they can charge you more, or use it as leverage to scare you into paying for a support plan that "covers" broken windows. If they were made out of flat panels, 3rd parties could make them, farmers could make their own, and they would be cheaper.
artursapek 2y ago
Hahaha I hadn’t seen that they’re discontinuing that already. It seemed like such an obvious dud when I saw them announcing it. What a waste of resources.
grishka 2y ago
If you buy a device, the manufacturer should retain no control over it whatsoever. There should not be technical provisions to make such control possible. Otherwise, it should be considered a rental and made very clear to you before you commit to it.

ramesh31 2y ago

If you try to lobby against the people who invented lobbying, you're gonna have a bad time.

chasil 2y ago

There was also a fatality in the last workplace strike. Deere seems to have bad relations with their employees, customers, and regulatory bodies. The shareholders should remove the board of directors. https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/money/business/2021/10/27/john-deere-strike-worker-dies-milan-illinois-uaw-picket-wednesday/8565730002/ https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/money/business/2021/...

onlyrealcuzzo 2y ago
The shareholders don't care about any of that if they think the board did a decent job of propping up the stock price. Firing a board is generally risky, and the shareholders probably haven't fired them because even though the board has, almost objectively, not been good - firing them is likely even worse for the stock short term, and there aren't a lot of long-term, active investors left in the world.
- chasil 2y ago
  The board's goal was to lock-in maintenance with computer security, which failed catastrophically. All previous generations of Deere tractors have on-board electronics that can be jailbroken. https://www.theregister.com/2022/08/16/john_deere_doom/ https://www.theregister.com/2022/08/16/john_deere_doom/ Just for that failure, they should all likely be gone.
  - adventured 2y ago
    Their business is booming. That significantly overwhelms the concern you're raising. They have gone from $4.3b in operating income to $14.5b in three years, while their sales nearly doubled. That's an old industrial company boom the likes of which is almost never seen by those types of companies. By comparison what you're calling catastrophic is entirely trivial. It's not even in the room as a consideration compared to the soaring profits. Nobody is removing a whole board with that kind of profit growth.
    - worik 2y ago

seanw444 2y ago

One of the very few things I can appreciate from this administration.

warkdarrior 2y ago
[flagged]
- pwillia7 2y ago
  Yeah! If the children want to lay my rail road lines for pennies, who the hell are the regulators to tell me and them we can't do that?!?!?
- Teever 2y ago
  It isn't a free market. It is a regulated market and that regulation benefits both innovation and the producers and consumers in the market. What public interest is served by allowing companies to engage in anti-competitive and anti-consumer practices like locking people into proprietary systems? The world is a better place because regulators mandate things like interoperability in phones or requirements that auto manufacturers supply parts for 3rd party mechanics to fix vehicles.
- KK7NIL 2y ago
  1) agricultural equipment relies on a network of local dealers to sell and maintain the equipment. For this reason, it's very hard for competition to break in. No one wants to wait 2 weeks for a part for their tractor during crop season. 2) No other manufacturers offer real choice (and the required logistics I mentioned above), so it's not something the free market will fix.
- bhhaskin 2y ago
  Except you can't because they abuse the shit out of the paten system. The paten system was a great idea when it protected up starts from being destroyed by the competition, but now it's used by incumbents to stifle markets.
- realce 2y ago
  Are you saying companies should be able to sell bottles of bleach as "baby formula"?

CatWChainsaw 2y ago

The Feds are coming, and I hope they keep going and going until there isn't a single product or service left that dares dictate what you can do after the transaction is complete.

pwillia7 2y ago
Say hello to your new Subscription products
- Gibbon1 2y ago
  I've been rolling the idea around that perhaps if a product is encumbered by a subscription then it's not a first sale and the product counts as inventory. And gets taxed as such.
  - ddingus 2y ago
    That is exactly how it should work. If the user does not own it, someone does and the accounting should play out accordingly.
    - dylan604 2y ago
      Does it work that way for ISPs that "lease" their modems? This is the first time I've ever considered this idea that the hardware would still be inventory. Does inventory get taxed annually or monthly? Seems like the monthly lease fees would more than cover that.
      - ryukoposting 2y ago
        That's a perfect example. They demand it back at the end of your contract, there's not even an option to keep it, let alone modify it. I remember reading that, back in the 50s or 60s, the phone company owned "your" phone. It was permanently attached to the wall, and you weren't allowed to do anything to alter it. Did AT&T pay taxes on those phones as inventory?

euroderf 2y ago

Ukraine was at the forefront of white hat hacking their miserable machines.

mmooss 2y ago

What happens if the GOP wins in a couple of weeks? Would there be any way these actions can be sustainable for more than a few months?

doe_eyes 2y ago
Following the Reagan era, the GOP had a period of wanting to reign in the federal government, but I don't think that's quite true now. Folks like Trump or DeSantis are not pro-small-government, they just want to use it to advance different social policies. In the fight between farmers and Deere, I doubt they'd side with the company. Data point: Trump's VP nominee likes what the FTC is doing - https://fortune.com/2024/08/11/jd-vance-5000-child-tax-credit-support-ftc-lina-khan-tech-regulation/ https://fortune.com/2024/08/11/jd-vance-5000-child-tax-credi...
- NoNotTheDuo 2y ago
  Alternative data points: > Under Project 2025, the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) would be eliminated, and the Transportation Security Administration (TSA) would be privatized > The Department of Education would be eliminated and oversight of education and federal funding for education will be handed over to the states > The Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) would be eliminated and moved to the Department of Interior or the Department of Transportation if combined with the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency (CISA) > The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA)’s many regional labs and entire offices of enforcement and compliance and scientific integrity and risk information would be eliminated. > The Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) is to “privatize as much as possible” and close many hospitals and clinics. > The Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) would be taken apart and send much of its work to states and other agencies > The Department of Justice (DOJ) would lose its independence and be under control of the President > The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) would be drastically reduced and split into two entities: one gathering scientific data and one making public health recommendations and policies. Source: https://www.afge.org/article/project-2025-seeks-to-dismantle-agencies-terminate-up-to-1-million-federal-workers/ https://www.afge.org/article/project-2025-seeks-to-dismantle...

freedomben 2y ago

It's ironic that farmers (traditionally thought of as less technical people, "workers of the earth", etc) and hackers (highly technical nerds writing operating systems and engineering compatibility parts) are so connected by this issue. Some of the farmers I've talked to understand the importance ownership and right to repair better than even many engineers. That said, I think John Deere is just the asshole willing to weaponize the legal system to enforce their dreams. The real problem is laws that protect IP like the DMCA and the patent system. I'm not saying we should just delete all those, but they are in bad need of reform and enable a tremendous amount of abuse. The abuse is only going to get worse unless we treat the cause(s) rather than just the symptoms. I'm glad the feds are giving John Deere some attention, but I really hope they are going to fix the lopsided system instead of just try to bully or micro-regulate John Deere into "voluntarily" allowing more repair. If we stopped unleashing the lawyers on people for modifying or interfacing with devices they purchased, it would shift the balance of power more toward the center (whereas currently the power is almost entirely on the side of the companies). Even if you have no interest in repairing or "tinkering" with your own stuff, you should be on the side of right to repair.

FredPret 2y ago
Where did you get this stereotype of farmers? I’ve always though of them as business owners with special skills in growing things, auto mechanics, and logistics.
- mcmcmc 2y ago
  People who’ve never lived in or around rural communities tend to stereotype those populations as country bumpkins. Newsmedia doesn’t help.
- serf 2y ago
  >Where did you get this stereotype of farmers? it's not a hard guess even if you don't share the opinion ; nearly every movie where 'farmer' is a plot point demonstrates a rural-living poorly educated family living in dust-bowl conditions and barely scraping enough resource by to feed the animals. grapes of wrath, wizard of oz, of mice and men, o brother where art thou, ballad of buster scruggs -- yes it's a stereotype , but it's a common one in movies and literature.

taeric 2y ago

This will be a tough fight. I'm assuming warranty and second sale transactions will be much more complicated in some futures. In big purchases, I'd assume it would be a lot like Title Insurance on real estate? I'm curious where this will ultimately go. Feels like the best path would be a "minimal capability" set that machines need to support at basically a mechanical level? Probably gets a lot more complicated on some of the more advanced gear. Which, really doesn't help the narrative, as people try and show the basic tractors as the only thing impacted.

lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 2y ago
> second sale transactions will be much more complicated in some futures I recall a story of a person who bought a used Tesla which erroneously had some feature or another enabled -- sold by the second-hand dealer and purchased by the customer with the understanding that the car came with the feature -- until the feature was remotely disabled when someone at Tesla discovered the error.
- taeric 2y ago
  Some of the features that are gated by cars are just silly, such that I'd want to know more about the feature before really having an opinion on this. Is why I would think a "minimal feature set" would be key. Even in this scenario, though, I would expect you'd need something like the Title Insurance to really protect people?
  - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 2y ago
    It would definitely not fall under such a feature set given that it's something that seemingly can be reasonably disabled and only otherwise increases the value of the vehicle. I recall that the buyer thought they were buying the thing with the feature and the seller thought they were selling the thing with the feature when someone uninvolved with the transaction (the original manufacturer, Tesla in this case) changed the deal after-the-fact. It seems a bit moot how one feels about the feature itself when they can observe that the people transacting seem to agree on the value of the feature. (Looks like it was something to do with Autopilot, for what it's worth. https://www.theverge.com/2020/2/6/21127243/tesla-model-s-autopilot-disabled-remotely-used-car-update https://www.theverge.com/2020/2/6/21127243/tesla-model-s-aut...)

sailfast 2y ago

A John Deere lobbying ad about how much they have contributed to manufacturing was presented right next to this article.

pinkmuffinere 2y ago
Ya, I got the same ad. I wonder if (1) they believe that the ad will reduce the bad-pr generated by the article, or if (2) it’s just triggering because it matches some keywords (e.g. “John Deere”). The linked page looks like it’s intended to generate good will, so I think it’s case 1. But it really comes off as tone deaf to me
- alpaca128 2y ago
  I think all those targeted ad algorithms are effectively just really dumb. Whenever you look through the comments of a YT video criticizing a product/company you are almost guaranteed to find a dozen comments saying they got an ad from that company when the video started. But then again, what are they supposed to do when practically every corner on the internet only mentions John Deere in a negative context.
  - janalsncm 2y ago
    People may be even more likely to click on those ads if it will cost John Deere money.
    - meowster 2y ago
      Which are costs that John Deere will ultimately pass on to the consumer.
      - janalsncm 2y ago
        The point is that the ad recommendation models don’t know why people are clicking the ads, they just know people click on the ads.
  - 2y ago

tlqesHG 2y ago

The investigation is going on since 2021, the filing was made public on Thursday. Only a filthy redneck conspiracy theorist would conjecture that this is populist election influence! Prepare for the comments that "Lina Khan is on a tear" and this is all not influenced by the election at all.

dcrazy 2y ago
It was made public because HAI filed a motion on Thursday to quash the FTC’s subpoena. Do you think HAI did that intentionally to bolster Lina Khan’s and the FTC’s public image?

calmbonsai 2y ago

I don’t know where a “bright line” needs to be drawn here wrt jurisprudence, but akin to Monsanto, I have _zero_ doubt that Deere has been crossing it for decades.

xivusr 2y ago

[flagged]

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

farceSpherule 2y ago

Farming.. The ultimate form of corporate welfare.. "This is all a bit misleading. Farmers don’t want to repair their own equipment. They want to be able to call someone on a Sunday when something breaks to come fix it. Which they can’t do today due to restrictions on John Deere’s IP that limits 3rd parties from offering that service."

colechristensen 2y ago
There are two alternatives here: * your food is 5x more expensive as a result of protectionist tariffs * there are no protectionist tariffs and all of your food is produced in and imported from poor countries who can now use this as diplomatic leverage
sojournerc 2y ago
You do like eating, right? Of all the things to subsidize, food seems like a good one.
zaphar 2y ago
For what it's worth, if they bought the tractor I also think they should be able to call a third party on a Sunday to repair the tractor if it breaks. That is sort of how ownership is supposed to work.

farceSpherule 2y ago

"The main complaining about Deere and other brands are the guys that get mad they hacked the code for the ecu and allowed the engine to rev higher and provide more horsepower. Thus lowering the life of the engine and bypassing certain things like DEF. Then something breaks, and the dealer denies the warranty cause it's obvious they messed with the code. So then they go ape shit and say they should be able to customize their vehicle however they want. I know this cause I used to work at a dealer and this happened every season. They read up on some forum how to bypass stuff and boom, I'm replacing their engine."

lofaszvanitt 2y ago
Yeah, that's how the whole arms race started. Why JD didn't disseminate this fact though?

fredgrott 2y ago

some of my Uncles are farmers.... Most hate John Deere as their profits derive from cost savings in fixing their own equipment.

aucisson_masque 2y ago

I'm not and do not know American farmer so I'm asking a genuine question, why did they keep buying Deere tractors ? I know for a fact that there are competitors, in Europe we have many other brand of tractors. It would make no sense to buy something that you know you can't repair.

nosrepa 2y ago
I'd imagine you buy whatever color of machine you can get at your nearest dealer.
- dbcurtis 2y ago
  Not so much nearest dealer, but nearest large repair-parts warehouse, even if you drive a few more miles to the dealer.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
colmmacc 2y ago
I'm not a farmer, just friends with some. Driving through tiny towns in rural America you often see small-time John Deere dealerships and repair shops. They are very very well established. I've heard that they have trade-in and financing programs that are very attractive; for many farmers their only option is to go with what is local and has the minimum down up front.
dbcurtis 2y ago
JD has a good reputation for reliability, and at least in the area where my family farms, green tractors retain their resale value better than most. Also a well built-out dealer network for support. A key factor for my brother's operation is that a large regional JD parts depot is a 20 minute drive away. With any other brand, the mechanic might tell you: "Well, we can have the part here in two days." versus "If you drive to the depot now and pick up the part, I can have you running by the end of this afternoon." During spring planting and fall harvest, that is a big deal.

pabs3 2y ago

I hope the feds are looking at a right to repair software too, Deere is in violation of the GNU GPL due to withholding Linux kernel source code, which means you can't fix bugs in your tractors. https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2023/mar/16/john-deere-gpl-violations/ https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2023/mar/16/john-deere-gpl-vi...

roundstars 2y ago

Regarding right to repair, you can watch the Youtuber "Louis Rossmann" [1]. He repairs Macbooks and extensively talks about the importance of "Right to repair" in his Youtube channel. [1] https://www.youtube.com/@rossmanngroup https://www.youtube.com/@rossmanngroup

pvaldes 2y ago

In one of the slowest movements registered ever in the animal kingdom

sirolimus 2y ago

Credz to the farmers for fighting back

silexia 2y ago

Farmer here. John Deere and any other company that does not fully support the right to repair should go bankrupt.