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America's new millionaire class: Plumbers and HVAC entrepreneurs

186 points by hhs 2y ago

ein0p 2y ago
3 years ago basic service on my whole house AC was $450. It’s probably $600 now.
replwoacause 2y ago
I can understand how HVAC techs are making millions. The one that just showed up to my place recommended a $6,500 total replacement of the indoor coil unit, to address a frozen condenser line outside. I declined, ran the furnace to melt the ice, put a new $5 filter in it and it is working just fine.
black_13 2y ago
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hooverd 2y ago
Can this be the next thing tech democratizes?
- gjsman-1000 2y ago
  Nope. The average tech worker would be screaming about these working conditions being unreasonable for any human by the end of Day 1. I’m being partially sarcastic, but partially honest in that tech workers are often ludicrously blind to how good they have it.
  - doubled112 2y ago
    “Shit rolls downhill” is different in plumbing. Much more literal. You might be standing in some. You might have to stick your hand in some. A lot of people just aren’t ready for that kind of work.
    - gjsman-1000 2y ago
      I worked when I was a teenager digging a 6 foot pit under a house, that was located next to a stream. Almost no visibility, pit filling with water as you dig, almost no room to shovel dirt out. I also worked on the 12th story of scaffolding grinding out mortar joints on bell towers. I have little respect for when people complain that just coming into an office will affect their mental health outcomes.
      - doubled112 2y ago
        Some people’s tolerance for “stress” makes me question how we ever got this far. Not quite the same level of hands on, but I spent some time working in chemical plants. The safety training includes “you will die” many times. What do you do if you hear an alarm? What do you do if a cloud of ammonia comes your way? Where are the escape bags? Which way does the wind sock show the wind blowing? Stories about people being shredded, falling, poisoned, dying, etc. Reverting to snapshot when a maintenance goes poorly is just not the same kind of stressful. Quick edit: I do, however, find office life stressful. I’ve never been happier overall than when working from home. Those stresses are real too, but different.
      - bryanlarsen 2y ago
        > I have little respect for when people complain that just coming into an office will affect their mental health outcomes. I have shovelled many tons of chicken shit. I have also felt the stress of my screw-up jeopardizing a multi-million dollar contract the company depends on. There are many many advantages to a tech job. But shovelling chicken shit is better for your mental health.
        gjsman-1000 2y ago
        I didn’t say “screw-up jeopardizing a multi-million dollar contract” shouldn’t cause stress. I totally understand that. I’m talking about people offended just by needing to show up and function in a normal office. If someone is offering me $120K; I’ll physically show up in a suit if you want.
  - GoodJokes 2y ago
    [dead]
  - feedforward 2y ago
    How ludicrously blind are the heirs who collect dividends on Oracle stock to how good they have it? I guess the workers doing the work and creating the wealth are lucky that Steve Jobs, Eric Schmidt etc. illegally conspired to do wage-fixing so that they and the heirs they work for could get more of the wealth that others created.
  - Eumenes 2y ago
    The "psychological safety" crowd would need a ketamine drip by the end of day 1 as a plumber or hvac tech.
- raziel2701 2y ago
  How would tech do it? Uber for plumbers? Theranos for electricians? Juicero for HVAC?
  - hooverd 2y ago
    Say what you want about Juicero but it was a beautifully over engineered machine.
- toast0 2y ago
  The trades are pretty democratized as it is. Every service company I use with is hiring at all levels. Training is available. If you have to get a certificate before you start, that's a barrier to entry, but a nearby community college is likely to have classes. The real barrier is it's a hard job, and other work is more tempting for a lot of folks. Tech for trades either looks like a centralized dispatch service that takes 10-30% of the fees and results in a new person showing up for every job (no thanks! Once I find a plumber I like, for non emergency use, I prefer to work with the same one) or maybe something per company that helps organize appointments, scheduling, billing, and notifications about arrival times. This may reduce / eliminate office managers / answering services for busy firms, and could help improve communications for owners that have no employees; but I think it already exists.
  - HPsquared 2y ago
    There's also potential for planning / drawing / information tools. Augmented reality and stuff. Knowing and recording where the pipes and things are. Sourcing materials. Things like that.
pjbk 2y ago
https://archive.is/GkBGi https://archive.is/GkBGi
jacknews 2y ago
"The wave of investment is minting a new class of millionaires across the country, one that small-business owners say is helping add more shine to working with a tool belt." How naive. PE does not enter a market in order to make existing workers into millionaires, but to create a monopoly/monopsony where they can gouge both customers and employees, to extract maximum profit. Quite often, the goal is not even to run the market sustainably, but just to produce optical profits for a quick resale. A few local contractors may get bought out and become millionaires, but everyone else will be impoverished. We can probably even predict some next steps. They will recommend and lobby for various 'safety' regulations or certifications that would be difficult for smaller shops to meet, and then pressure commercial landlords, housing associations, etc to require those certifications.
- halfcat 2y ago
  Exactly. Eventually regulatory capture begins and eventually enshittification. No one can start a new plumbing/HVAC small business. Your only option is to go work for Walmart (metaphorically speaking).
  - SoftTalker 2y ago
    > No one can start a new plumbing/HVAC small business. This isn't true at all, I know several people who have done it.
    - khrbrt 2y ago
      They meant after consolidations.
    - raziel2701 2y ago
      I understood OP's comment as once PE comes in, monopolizes and regulatory captures, then no one can start a new plumbing/HVAC small business.
      - Kon-Peki 2y ago
bradfa 2y ago
Some local skilled trade companies have been recently bought out. From feedback I’ve heard from customers, quality has declined. Lots of car dealerships locally have consolidated lately and their service quality has declined while prices have shot up. While private equity may be making some local business owners rich, they’re ruining the customer experience.
- infecto 2y ago
  Which opens up the door for the next generation.
  - oarla 2y ago
    With respect to car servicing, I'm getting a deja vu feeling. Like smartphones have made it almost impossible to get a phone repaired by third party companies, car makers are making it very hard to get their cars serviced anywhere other than their dealerships where they can overcharge everything. With so much (unnecessary?) technology in the cars these days, it's easy for them to slap more conditions on the owners and lock in services for years.
    - CraigJPerry 2y ago
      It’s not servicing so much as parts. A friend recently had a 4 year old car written off by insurance after a minor front end shunt. He was incredulous so bought the car back from the insurer as part of his settlement BUT the car is still off the road because the laserlight headlights are just over £5000 each from BMW and there’s no second hand ones of the right type available in the UK currently. It’s quite a lot cheaper to rewire the car for the more common and cheaper Xenon HID headlight (it’s only £300 2nd hand) but a fairly big job with ZERO support from BMW for the conversion.
      - fakedang 2y ago
        To be honest, that's a very BMW problem. Good enough reason to stay away from BMW (or any German car really).
antisthenes 2y ago
I wonder if that's the reason my HVAC guy tried to charge me $700 for running a thermostat cable less than 8 feet (that I later did myself in less than 30 minutes).
- SoftTalker 2y ago
  This is the typical trade tactic for rejecting a job that is too small to be worth your time. He still has to come out to your place, with his truck and tools, and install that 8 feet of cable. He could spend that same overhead doing an 8 hour, much more profitable job. So he bid an outrageous amount. If you had said yes, he covers his overhead. If you reject it, he does something more profitable with his time.
  - asdefghyk 2y ago
    RE ".... If you had said yes, he covers his overhead..." Really - a overhead of several hundred dollars. Seems far fetched to me.
    - RyanCavanaugh 2y ago
      It's not just the overhead of showing up, it's the opportunity cost of not doing contiguous hours at a bigger job. It's very difficult to fill up a day with 45-minute jobs all over town, so he's basically working part-time if he takes a small job.
      - asdefghyk 2y ago
        Where I live , there is a "call out fee". that prevents tradesmen from not being paid for time costs driving to job investigations .... The customer also pays for the needed diagnosis time too. So I do not see a reason why not do small jobs.
    - ghaff 2y ago
      Even easy job is probably going to take a few hours between scheduling overload, driving to and from the site, figuring out what needs to be done, and actually doing the work. Expensive? Possibly. But doesn’t seem out of bounds. How much would you charge to drive to an office to solve some problem even if it turned out to have an easy fix? I can’t imagine quoting much less than that.
SoftTalker 2y ago
There are several tradespeople I know (electricians, plumbers, carpenters) who make more money than I do. But I don't begrudge them that, electricians do work where a mistake can literally kill you, and all of these jobs have high injury rates and will wear your body down much faster than sitting at a keyboard. Edit: and there are no "open source" tools. You have to buy them, and good ones are not cheap.
- theGnuMe 2y ago
  Sitting at a keyboard for 8+ hours a day for years is super unhealthy.
- Aeglaecia 2y ago
  any reccs for an open source logic analyzer on par with saleae?
- orwin 2y ago
  Carpenters too? I'm not from the US but this is a crowd I know and talked to quite a bit, at least in western Appalachia. It seemed to me they are shafted quite often, as big companies hire them as subcontractors 90% of the time and underpay them. The last 10% another tradesman/local architect get a contract and hire them directly and they earn almost twice their usual pay but that's a small minority of their contracts.
  - infecto 2y ago
    Agree. Carpenter is the lowest of the trade skills unless you are in a specific niche.
  - SoftTalker 2y ago
    Rough framers cutting and nailing together dimensional lumber, yes I agree that is entry-level work does not pay very well. Skilled carpenters who can do things like design and build a beautiful deck or flawless ornamental woodwork, built-in cabinets, or custom furniture, or solve a tricky framing issue in an expensive historic renovation earn much more. I should add that all the people I know who are earning really good money in the trades put in some years, established a solid personal reputation in the area, and then started their own businesses.
robsh 2y ago
Millionaire class? The article describes a small business owner who wants to retire. Meanwhile, the private equity firms are going to monopolize the market and raise prices. Sadly, none of the 20 or 30 year olds who are actually doing the work will be able to buy out their owners business. Any young tradespeople: form a coop and buy your bosses business. Better to be a 10% owner than 0%.
- game_the0ry 2y ago
  The private equity + consolidation part concerns me too. Bad for the customer and the next gen of small business owners. I would expect those same PE companies to lobby for legislation to make it harder for new start up competitors to start. We are stupid if we let this happen.
  - ryandrake 2y ago
    > Bad for the customer and the next gen of small business owners. Another example of the previous generation pulling up the ladder once they've reached the top. Sell the business to Private Equity (who will squeeze both employees and customers), flip everyone the bird, and parachute off to Florida to suck down Pina Coladas for the rest of your life.
    - bluGill 2y ago
      The real question is how do we get the next generation to realiie they can start their own business and take all the money the private equity is trying to get.
- blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
  What we need are new antitrust laws, not only to breakup or tax megacorps, but also to breakup consolidation of control from investment firms (private equity but also others). Without this, there is no real fair playing field for competition.
- carlosjobim 2y ago
  Owners would never sell their business to young tradespeople for any less than twice the value. The hatred that the old have against the young is just too strongly ingrained. They'll be fine with selling for much less to a "worthy" buyer though, such as a private equity firm.
deleted 2y ago
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bryanlarsen 2y ago
- Buying an annuity with the same benefits as a good pension will cost over >$1M, so it's not much of a stretch to call anybody who was one of those a millionaire too. - I think the keyword here in the title is "entrepreneur", not "plumbers & HVAC"
- vundercind 2y ago
  Yuuup, the ones who make serious cash may still be on job sites part of the time (the ones you want to hire sure are…) but they’re making so much money because their main jobs are sales and management. Same as anything else, the real money is in getting a slice of the value of a bunch of other people’s labor. A tradesman who’s quite good at their trade, but no good at management or sales, has a much lower cap on earnings because this route’s not available.
dahart 2y ago
I wonder how this article was pitched. Strange messaging, turning the news of private equity hoovering up HVAC companies into plumbers getting rich? Surely private equity will do what it always does, drive up prices, drive down quality, and bail out leaving behind a mess if or when it suits them. It also seems pretty funny to call it a “class” when they’re referring to a few dozen business owners, not really trades workers. Did the plumbers getting rich meme start with Joe the Plumber? My cynical hypothesis is that it’s a movement to steer people away from college fearing a hollowing out of the working class and higher wages if everyone’s university educated. Are there other reasons this talking point keeps circling? Googling multiple sources shows plumbers making an average of $60k/year which is lower than the average teacher salary in the US. Neither of those classes is getting rich and both are feeling the squeeze of inflation, no doubt being contributed to by private equity.
- thaumasiotes 2y ago
  > Did the plumbers getting rich meme start with Joe the Plumber? If you believe nothing happened before the year 2008, yes. Otherwise, no, of course not. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0582490/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0582490/ aired 14 years before that.
  - dahart 2y ago
    I was talking about politics and our general social discussion about trade school vs university. Obviously that’s a centuries’ old discussion, but I don’t recall talk of plumbers vis a vis the benefits of college specifically before Joe the Plumber, and now it comes up all the time. What does this sitcom episode demonstrate, exactly? Haven’t seen it, but from the description the title’s pun is based on the relationship of the characters, and not income or education. Is there a relevant storyline not described in the notes?
    - HeyLaughingBoy 2y ago
      I remember being at a boat ramp in Norwalk, CT sometime around 1992 and commenting that most of the boats I saw were being pulled by trucks owned by HVAC companies. My friend, the sailboat owner, replied "yeah, cause they're the ones with money." So no, it's far from a recent concept.
skywhopper 2y ago
These folks are much more important and skilled than your typical software engineer at a FAANG employer. Kudos to them.
blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
So how will this play out in the future? Once PE acquires all these businesses, squeezes all the life out of them, and runs it at aggressive prices, can any future small businesses pop up to compete against them? Or is everyone doomed to buying these services from PE companies with poor service?
hoofhearted 2y ago
My theory behind the big private equity play behind buying up all the HVAC companies is that some smart people on wall street realized that R22 refrigerant was banned, and basically any system using R22 that was installed before 2010 will have to be replaced in the coming years because you can’t find the refrigerant needed to charge your system.
- Ekaros 2y ago
  My view is that someone just went over list of industries and asked can we afford to get regional monopoly here. That is do we yet have enough money to buy out enough of certain regional markets to extract enough value to make it worthwhile. Value of jobs don't even need to have anything big coming up see vetinary clinics.
- bilsbie 2y ago
  It seems like it’s changing every year. Why can’t we just settle on one standard and let us start lowering costs again? I shouldn’t have to pay 10k to replace my AC. (I like the idea of using propane as a refrigerant. Surprisingly efficient. Very cheap. And I don’t think there’s enough to be more dangerous than a grill?)
- sokoloff 2y ago
  I think you'll be able to buy R22 for at least another 6 (and probably another 11+) years, at which point that system will be 20 (or 25+) years old and replacing it won't be viewed as out of the ordinary, nor provide a particular bonanza of income/profits to HVAC companies.
  - mkhpalm 2y ago
    A lot of people in various countries just charge R-22 and R-12 systems with purified propane. (or regular propane too)
- chowells 2y ago
  The PE play is always "I see people getting good service at a fair price. That indicates I am not making enough money."
nine_zeros 2y ago
It is true that trades work has picked up quite a bit. High school kids and their career counselors say the reasons are: - Well-defined career path. - High pay as you keep going ahead. - Union pay and benefits. Incredible stability. Incredible healthcare. - No outsourcing. - Lots of paid leave. None of that unlimited PTO scam. - Lot of camaraderie. None of the corporate nonsense where execs take it all at the expense of people. - Opportunity to start your own business at a certain point. - No large student loan to get started. While not all kids articulate all these points well, but they can tell how their seniors in college are grinding too much for little return - while trades people are working hard, taking vacations, raising families - and buying homes. The average tradesperson in a HCOL is a millionaire by age 40 simply because they could buy a house earlier in their lives. And they are able to start families and live a very stable life. Kids are picking up on this.
- linotype 2y ago
  You failed to mention any of the downsides: - competition from non-Union labor - broken body by 50 - fewer jobs than programming (there are multiple times as many programming jobs than plumbing, for instance) - working conditions (no office work, expect hot/cold environments potentially far away from family)
  - nine_zeros 2y ago
    > competition from non-Union labor Very little. Because non-union workers join the union as soon as they see the benefits. > broken body by 50 As opposed to broken minds by 50 for toxic corporate jobs. > fewer jobs than programming (there are multiple times as many programming jobs than plumbing, for instance) This is true. But that's because software development is considered one large blob while trades is broken into HVAC, plumbing, electrical etc. > working conditions (no office work, expect hot/cold environments potentially far away from family) And yet, they can pick and choose their work for the most part. No badging in for 5 day RTO BS.
    - kortilla 2y ago
      >Very little. Because non-union workers join the union as soon as they see the benefits. This isn't true and sounds like union propaganda. It's very easy to find non-union trade workers in big cities, even very liberal ones that are supportive of unions. >As opposed to broken minds by 50 for toxic corporate jobs. People don't have broken minds from corporate jobs. Physical damage from labor is real and extremely common. Every tradesman 40+ will tell you this. People retiring from corporate jobs do not consistently warn people that your mind will be broken. >And yet, they can pick and choose their work for the most part. No badging in for 5 day RTO BS. Are you joking? RTO isn't a thing because the trades were never allowed to work from home in the first place.
deleted 2y ago
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tennisflyi 2y ago
Bro, what? BLS has them at $48K/year
int0x29 2y ago
I love how they subjected me to a proof of work challenge to view their paywall.
thomasjudge 2y ago
This article and a lot of the discussion fails to make clear that there is a big difference financially between being a plumber/electrician/hvac tech and owning a plumbing/electrical/hvac business
- 1123581321 2y ago
  The whole article is about trades business owners selling for seven figures. When employees are discussed it’s to say they see a 20% pay bump after acquisition but that some owners worry about the fate of the workers post sale. What makes it seem to be conflating owners and non-owners to you?
- hhs 2y ago
  The article seems pretty clear; it talks mainly about the two business owners, one is Aaron Rice and the other is Dana Spears, as well as the relationship with private equity over time.
- ryandrake 2y ago
  Seems like every article that sings the financial praises of blue collar "tradesman" work fails to make this distinction. You don't become a millionaire being a plumber. You become a millionaire by owning a plumbing business. Those are two totally different things.
  - analog31 2y ago
    A similar problem with "farmers." A farm worker, and a person who owns a farm, are two totally different economic situations. Both work hard, but the economic outcomes are quite different.
    - ryandrake 2y ago
      One thing I've always been curious about is: How many trade business owners come from the working class and actually started out as grunt-work tradesmen, somehow ending up owning their company, and how many are from the business class and have never touched a pipe wrench or wire stripper? You never get the picture from these articles. My uninformed suspicion is that the majority of actual owners are not practitioners, and instead acquired or inherited their business. Would love to be proven wrong with data.
BobbyTables2 2y ago
I’m noticing HVAC systems (installed) are about 3x the price they were 10 years ago. And they is from the cheaper companies that don’t advertise on the radio!
- GenerWork 2y ago
  General inflation, competent techs are retiring/nearing retiring age, and the fact that new units seem to be more complicated internally/harder to work on (i.e. expensive) are probably why.
elawler24 2y ago
My dad bought a failing HVAC business 30+ years ago, then made it profitable over the years and sold it back to his employees last year. He had the option to take a few highly lucrative PE deals, but it was clear they would squeeze the life out of the employees and customers he had worked hard to support over many years. I can’t imagine how low quality this kind of trade work will become if PE owns them all. It will be similar to vet, dentist, and dermatology clinics which now feel like factories that don’t care about the humans on the other end - often employing fear tactics and sales quotas to incentivize upsells.
- bayouborne 2y ago
  Highly efficient Mini-split heatpumps are becoming simpler for the moderately technical homeowner to install everyday. 5-6 years ago installation typically involved a vacuum pump, a gauge set, sometimes a flaring tool to re-dress factory terminated line fittings, etc. Fairly inexpensive new 4th gen Mini-split heatpumps are drop-shipped from Amazon, have pre-evacuated line-sets that just bolt up to the inside head and pre-charged outside compressor units. I wonder how wide availability of these relatively cheap units are going to impact the bullish picture described in the WSJ article.
- namaria 2y ago
  American capitalism really worked way better when it had a geopolitical competitor. Funny how that works.
- dopylitty 2y ago
  I'm glad you mention dentists/vets. I make it a point to verify local businesses aren't PE owned before I will use them. Of course one of the problems with PE is they hoover up _all_ the businesses in an area so you don't have a choice. There really needs to be regulation in this area preventing a single beneficial entity/controlling entity from buying/owning more than a few percent of a certain type of business in an area.
  - wellthisisgreat 2y ago
    How do you find out who owns the business? Literally what kind of question would you ask on the phone?
asdefghyk 2y ago
Observation. The charges of plumbers and HVAC entrepreneurs would also be influenced by the number/supply of such workers. If their are lots plumbers and the same customer demand then it is reasonable plumbers incomes/charges would decrease.
snapetom 2y ago
Back in the early 90's when being a millionaire meant something, I believe it was the NYT that ran a piece about how there were a disproportionate amount of plumbers and electricians in that class. Essentially they outlined how it wasn't a huge leap to grow your own small business in that industry and retire well. As long as you didn't snort/drink/gamble your earnings away.
ChuckMcM 2y ago
There is this joke that goes: "A surgeon calls a plumber to unclog his toilet, the plumber arrives and 30 minutes later it's all back up and running. He tells the surgeon 'That will be $500'. And the surgeon replies, 'Hey I'm a surgeon and even I don't make $500 for 30 minutes work!', and the plumber replies, 'I get it, I didn't make that much when I was doing surgery either!'" :-) But the heart of this is that somehow we brainwashed kids into thinking that they had to be "scientists" or "executives" if they wanted a fulfilling life and a comfortable salary and that just isn't true. If you're unable to find a 'tech job' consider learning how to hang drywall or wire up an outlet and overhead light. There is both work that can be done right now that needs those skills and it can be more rewarding than writing some dark pattern web site that helps a schmuck trick seniors out their money. /endrant
- bluGill 2y ago
  Nice story but I make far more as an engineer than someone doing electric. The owner of the electric business does well but they need to do office work not the labor you see.
  - ChuckMcM 2y ago
    I am happy for you, I really am. It is important to recognize that your experience may not be the experience of others right? While I too had no issue making a good salary through the various tech "crashes" I also know many many people who, for a wide variety of reasons, were not (and are not!) able to. There are a lot of people looking for work right now and their resume is kind of thin. Even with 'big names' in their CV like Google and Meta they are finding it hard to get interviews, much less call backs. Easily a dozen people I've known over the last 5 years have moved "to be with family" which was exactly code for "moving back in with the parents because they can't find gainful employment in an expensive place like the SF Bay Area." When they have asked for my advice I have shared that they are not their "job", they have agency and it is just as meaningful to be in the trades as it is to be in "tech." When I read this story about folks in the trades doing well I thought of those conversations and realized that not everyone has someone to tell them this. Fortunately for you the question hasn't come up, and that is great.
slyall 2y ago
The 1996 book "The Millionaire Next Door" covered this a bit. Lots of contrast between doctors and similar who spent all their income on expensive houses, cars, club memberships etc and people who owned blue collar businesses who bought in similar/more income but lived modestly. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Millionaire_Next_Door https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Millionaire_Next_Door
FpUser 2y ago
>"PE firms across the country have been scooping up home services like HVAC—that is, heating, ventilation and air conditioning—as well as plumbing and electrical companies. They hope to profit by running larger, more profitable operations." There are few things I like less than PE acquiring home services. Now instead of being served by qualified person for a reasonable price they send you an imbecile and charge few times as much. Spoken from a personal experience. FUCK YOU PE.
sub7 2y ago
These are businesses where the knowledge gap is so wide between the service provider and the client mixed with the life or death need of "I need to flush" or "I need heat in the winter" that people routinely get fleeced. Basically means you're about to be hit with a $500-5000 bill for what is likely a $50 part + 30 mins labour. Gross margins don't grow, but they are monsterous.
TrackerFF 2y ago
I mean, hasn't it been like that forever? Here in Norway, the owners of such shops have always been "asset rich", because they pretty much own every asset in their company. That means vehicles, tools, shop, parts and products inventory, and what have you. Prior to enrolling college, I was an (electrician) apprentice. I ditched that for a degree in electrical engineering. During college I took on a variety of part time jobs to support myself - a bunch of them were temp trade jobs. Roofing, construction, and what have you. I'll tell you this though: I've never, ever met a shop owner that didn't work from 7 in the morning to 9 in the evening, minimum 6 days a week. Some of these guys practically grew up in their fathers shop, and have been ingrained with such a hardcore work ethic, that work is all they know. They could liquidate or sell their shop, and retire - but I've yet to meet anyone that does that. I've seen more shop owners die before they retire, due to the lifestyle choices around this kind of work. And those that "retire" will anyway keep hanging around the shop. This usually leads to what we just called "voluntary involuntary" overtime. Basically the shop owners will assume that everyone loves work as much as them, and will assume everyone wants to work overtime 6 hours a day.

186 points by hhs 2y ago

3 years ago basic service on my whole house AC was $450. It’s probably $600 now.

I can understand how HVAC techs are making millions. The one that just showed up to my place recommended a $6,500 total replacement of the indoor coil unit, to address a frozen condenser line outside. I declined, ran the furnace to melt the ice, put a new $5 filter in it and it is working just fine.

black_13 2y ago

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hooverd 2y ago

Can this be the next thing tech democratizes?

gjsman-1000 2y ago
Nope. The average tech worker would be screaming about these working conditions being unreasonable for any human by the end of Day 1. I’m being partially sarcastic, but partially honest in that tech workers are often ludicrously blind to how good they have it.
- doubled112 2y ago
  “Shit rolls downhill” is different in plumbing. Much more literal. You might be standing in some. You might have to stick your hand in some. A lot of people just aren’t ready for that kind of work.
  - gjsman-1000 2y ago
    I worked when I was a teenager digging a 6 foot pit under a house, that was located next to a stream. Almost no visibility, pit filling with water as you dig, almost no room to shovel dirt out. I also worked on the 12th story of scaffolding grinding out mortar joints on bell towers. I have little respect for when people complain that just coming into an office will affect their mental health outcomes.
    - doubled112 2y ago
      Some people’s tolerance for “stress” makes me question how we ever got this far. Not quite the same level of hands on, but I spent some time working in chemical plants. The safety training includes “you will die” many times. What do you do if you hear an alarm? What do you do if a cloud of ammonia comes your way? Where are the escape bags? Which way does the wind sock show the wind blowing? Stories about people being shredded, falling, poisoned, dying, etc. Reverting to snapshot when a maintenance goes poorly is just not the same kind of stressful. Quick edit: I do, however, find office life stressful. I’ve never been happier overall than when working from home. Those stresses are real too, but different.
    - bryanlarsen 2y ago
      > I have little respect for when people complain that just coming into an office will affect their mental health outcomes. I have shovelled many tons of chicken shit. I have also felt the stress of my screw-up jeopardizing a multi-million dollar contract the company depends on. There are many many advantages to a tech job. But shovelling chicken shit is better for your mental health.
      - gjsman-1000 2y ago
        I didn’t say “screw-up jeopardizing a multi-million dollar contract” shouldn’t cause stress. I totally understand that. I’m talking about people offended just by needing to show up and function in a normal office. If someone is offering me $120K; I’ll physically show up in a suit if you want.
- GoodJokes 2y ago
  [dead]
- feedforward 2y ago
  How ludicrously blind are the heirs who collect dividends on Oracle stock to how good they have it? I guess the workers doing the work and creating the wealth are lucky that Steve Jobs, Eric Schmidt etc. illegally conspired to do wage-fixing so that they and the heirs they work for could get more of the wealth that others created.
- Eumenes 2y ago
  The "psychological safety" crowd would need a ketamine drip by the end of day 1 as a plumber or hvac tech.
raziel2701 2y ago
How would tech do it? Uber for plumbers? Theranos for electricians? Juicero for HVAC?
- hooverd 2y ago
  Say what you want about Juicero but it was a beautifully over engineered machine.
toast0 2y ago
The trades are pretty democratized as it is. Every service company I use with is hiring at all levels. Training is available. If you have to get a certificate before you start, that's a barrier to entry, but a nearby community college is likely to have classes. The real barrier is it's a hard job, and other work is more tempting for a lot of folks. Tech for trades either looks like a centralized dispatch service that takes 10-30% of the fees and results in a new person showing up for every job (no thanks! Once I find a plumber I like, for non emergency use, I prefer to work with the same one) or maybe something per company that helps organize appointments, scheduling, billing, and notifications about arrival times. This may reduce / eliminate office managers / answering services for busy firms, and could help improve communications for owners that have no employees; but I think it already exists.
- HPsquared 2y ago
  There's also potential for planning / drawing / information tools. Augmented reality and stuff. Knowing and recording where the pipes and things are. Sourcing materials. Things like that.

pjbk 2y ago

https://archive.is/GkBGi https://archive.is/GkBGi

jacknews 2y ago

"The wave of investment is minting a new class of millionaires across the country, one that small-business owners say is helping add more shine to working with a tool belt." How naive. PE does not enter a market in order to make existing workers into millionaires, but to create a monopoly/monopsony where they can gouge both customers and employees, to extract maximum profit. Quite often, the goal is not even to run the market sustainably, but just to produce optical profits for a quick resale. A few local contractors may get bought out and become millionaires, but everyone else will be impoverished. We can probably even predict some next steps. They will recommend and lobby for various 'safety' regulations or certifications that would be difficult for smaller shops to meet, and then pressure commercial landlords, housing associations, etc to require those certifications.

halfcat 2y ago
Exactly. Eventually regulatory capture begins and eventually enshittification. No one can start a new plumbing/HVAC small business. Your only option is to go work for Walmart (metaphorically speaking).
- SoftTalker 2y ago
  > No one can start a new plumbing/HVAC small business. This isn't true at all, I know several people who have done it.
  - khrbrt 2y ago
    They meant after consolidations.
  - raziel2701 2y ago
    I understood OP's comment as once PE comes in, monopolizes and regulatory captures, then no one can start a new plumbing/HVAC small business.
    - Kon-Peki 2y ago

bradfa 2y ago

Some local skilled trade companies have been recently bought out. From feedback I’ve heard from customers, quality has declined. Lots of car dealerships locally have consolidated lately and their service quality has declined while prices have shot up. While private equity may be making some local business owners rich, they’re ruining the customer experience.

infecto 2y ago
Which opens up the door for the next generation.
- oarla 2y ago
  With respect to car servicing, I'm getting a deja vu feeling. Like smartphones have made it almost impossible to get a phone repaired by third party companies, car makers are making it very hard to get their cars serviced anywhere other than their dealerships where they can overcharge everything. With so much (unnecessary?) technology in the cars these days, it's easy for them to slap more conditions on the owners and lock in services for years.
  - CraigJPerry 2y ago
    It’s not servicing so much as parts. A friend recently had a 4 year old car written off by insurance after a minor front end shunt. He was incredulous so bought the car back from the insurer as part of his settlement BUT the car is still off the road because the laserlight headlights are just over £5000 each from BMW and there’s no second hand ones of the right type available in the UK currently. It’s quite a lot cheaper to rewire the car for the more common and cheaper Xenon HID headlight (it’s only £300 2nd hand) but a fairly big job with ZERO support from BMW for the conversion.
    - fakedang 2y ago
      To be honest, that's a very BMW problem. Good enough reason to stay away from BMW (or any German car really).

antisthenes 2y ago

I wonder if that's the reason my HVAC guy tried to charge me $700 for running a thermostat cable less than 8 feet (that I later did myself in less than 30 minutes).

SoftTalker 2y ago
This is the typical trade tactic for rejecting a job that is too small to be worth your time. He still has to come out to your place, with his truck and tools, and install that 8 feet of cable. He could spend that same overhead doing an 8 hour, much more profitable job. So he bid an outrageous amount. If you had said yes, he covers his overhead. If you reject it, he does something more profitable with his time.
- asdefghyk 2y ago
  RE ".... If you had said yes, he covers his overhead..." Really - a overhead of several hundred dollars. Seems far fetched to me.
  - RyanCavanaugh 2y ago
    It's not just the overhead of showing up, it's the opportunity cost of not doing contiguous hours at a bigger job. It's very difficult to fill up a day with 45-minute jobs all over town, so he's basically working part-time if he takes a small job.
    - asdefghyk 2y ago
      Where I live , there is a "call out fee". that prevents tradesmen from not being paid for time costs driving to job investigations .... The customer also pays for the needed diagnosis time too. So I do not see a reason why not do small jobs.
  - ghaff 2y ago
    Even easy job is probably going to take a few hours between scheduling overload, driving to and from the site, figuring out what needs to be done, and actually doing the work. Expensive? Possibly. But doesn’t seem out of bounds. How much would you charge to drive to an office to solve some problem even if it turned out to have an easy fix? I can’t imagine quoting much less than that.

SoftTalker 2y ago

There are several tradespeople I know (electricians, plumbers, carpenters) who make more money than I do. But I don't begrudge them that, electricians do work where a mistake can literally kill you, and all of these jobs have high injury rates and will wear your body down much faster than sitting at a keyboard. Edit: and there are no "open source" tools. You have to buy them, and good ones are not cheap.

theGnuMe 2y ago
Sitting at a keyboard for 8+ hours a day for years is super unhealthy.
Aeglaecia 2y ago
any reccs for an open source logic analyzer on par with saleae?
orwin 2y ago
Carpenters too? I'm not from the US but this is a crowd I know and talked to quite a bit, at least in western Appalachia. It seemed to me they are shafted quite often, as big companies hire them as subcontractors 90% of the time and underpay them. The last 10% another tradesman/local architect get a contract and hire them directly and they earn almost twice their usual pay but that's a small minority of their contracts.
- infecto 2y ago
  Agree. Carpenter is the lowest of the trade skills unless you are in a specific niche.
- SoftTalker 2y ago
  Rough framers cutting and nailing together dimensional lumber, yes I agree that is entry-level work does not pay very well. Skilled carpenters who can do things like design and build a beautiful deck or flawless ornamental woodwork, built-in cabinets, or custom furniture, or solve a tricky framing issue in an expensive historic renovation earn much more. I should add that all the people I know who are earning really good money in the trades put in some years, established a solid personal reputation in the area, and then started their own businesses.

robsh 2y ago

Millionaire class? The article describes a small business owner who wants to retire. Meanwhile, the private equity firms are going to monopolize the market and raise prices. Sadly, none of the 20 or 30 year olds who are actually doing the work will be able to buy out their owners business. Any young tradespeople: form a coop and buy your bosses business. Better to be a 10% owner than 0%.

game_the0ry 2y ago
The private equity + consolidation part concerns me too. Bad for the customer and the next gen of small business owners. I would expect those same PE companies to lobby for legislation to make it harder for new start up competitors to start. We are stupid if we let this happen.
- ryandrake 2y ago
  > Bad for the customer and the next gen of small business owners. Another example of the previous generation pulling up the ladder once they've reached the top. Sell the business to Private Equity (who will squeeze both employees and customers), flip everyone the bird, and parachute off to Florida to suck down Pina Coladas for the rest of your life.
  - bluGill 2y ago
    The real question is how do we get the next generation to realiie they can start their own business and take all the money the private equity is trying to get.
blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
What we need are new antitrust laws, not only to breakup or tax megacorps, but also to breakup consolidation of control from investment firms (private equity but also others). Without this, there is no real fair playing field for competition.
carlosjobim 2y ago
Owners would never sell their business to young tradespeople for any less than twice the value. The hatred that the old have against the young is just too strongly ingrained. They'll be fine with selling for much less to a "worthy" buyer though, such as a private equity firm.

deleted 2y ago

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bryanlarsen 2y ago

- Buying an annuity with the same benefits as a good pension will cost over >$1M, so it's not much of a stretch to call anybody who was one of those a millionaire too. - I think the keyword here in the title is "entrepreneur", not "plumbers & HVAC"

vundercind 2y ago
Yuuup, the ones who make serious cash may still be on job sites part of the time (the ones you want to hire sure are…) but they’re making so much money because their main jobs are sales and management. Same as anything else, the real money is in getting a slice of the value of a bunch of other people’s labor. A tradesman who’s quite good at their trade, but no good at management or sales, has a much lower cap on earnings because this route’s not available.

dahart 2y ago

I wonder how this article was pitched. Strange messaging, turning the news of private equity hoovering up HVAC companies into plumbers getting rich? Surely private equity will do what it always does, drive up prices, drive down quality, and bail out leaving behind a mess if or when it suits them. It also seems pretty funny to call it a “class” when they’re referring to a few dozen business owners, not really trades workers. Did the plumbers getting rich meme start with Joe the Plumber? My cynical hypothesis is that it’s a movement to steer people away from college fearing a hollowing out of the working class and higher wages if everyone’s university educated. Are there other reasons this talking point keeps circling? Googling multiple sources shows plumbers making an average of $60k/year which is lower than the average teacher salary in the US. Neither of those classes is getting rich and both are feeling the squeeze of inflation, no doubt being contributed to by private equity.

thaumasiotes 2y ago
> Did the plumbers getting rich meme start with Joe the Plumber? If you believe nothing happened before the year 2008, yes. Otherwise, no, of course not. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0582490/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0582490/ aired 14 years before that.
- dahart 2y ago
  I was talking about politics and our general social discussion about trade school vs university. Obviously that’s a centuries’ old discussion, but I don’t recall talk of plumbers vis a vis the benefits of college specifically before Joe the Plumber, and now it comes up all the time. What does this sitcom episode demonstrate, exactly? Haven’t seen it, but from the description the title’s pun is based on the relationship of the characters, and not income or education. Is there a relevant storyline not described in the notes?
  - HeyLaughingBoy 2y ago
    I remember being at a boat ramp in Norwalk, CT sometime around 1992 and commenting that most of the boats I saw were being pulled by trucks owned by HVAC companies. My friend, the sailboat owner, replied "yeah, cause they're the ones with money." So no, it's far from a recent concept.

skywhopper 2y ago

These folks are much more important and skilled than your typical software engineer at a FAANG employer. Kudos to them.

blackeyeblitzar 2y ago

So how will this play out in the future? Once PE acquires all these businesses, squeezes all the life out of them, and runs it at aggressive prices, can any future small businesses pop up to compete against them? Or is everyone doomed to buying these services from PE companies with poor service?

hoofhearted 2y ago

My theory behind the big private equity play behind buying up all the HVAC companies is that some smart people on wall street realized that R22 refrigerant was banned, and basically any system using R22 that was installed before 2010 will have to be replaced in the coming years because you can’t find the refrigerant needed to charge your system.

Ekaros 2y ago
My view is that someone just went over list of industries and asked can we afford to get regional monopoly here. That is do we yet have enough money to buy out enough of certain regional markets to extract enough value to make it worthwhile. Value of jobs don't even need to have anything big coming up see vetinary clinics.
bilsbie 2y ago
It seems like it’s changing every year. Why can’t we just settle on one standard and let us start lowering costs again? I shouldn’t have to pay 10k to replace my AC. (I like the idea of using propane as a refrigerant. Surprisingly efficient. Very cheap. And I don’t think there’s enough to be more dangerous than a grill?)
sokoloff 2y ago
I think you'll be able to buy R22 for at least another 6 (and probably another 11+) years, at which point that system will be 20 (or 25+) years old and replacing it won't be viewed as out of the ordinary, nor provide a particular bonanza of income/profits to HVAC companies.
- mkhpalm 2y ago
  A lot of people in various countries just charge R-22 and R-12 systems with purified propane. (or regular propane too)
chowells 2y ago
The PE play is always "I see people getting good service at a fair price. That indicates I am not making enough money."

nine_zeros 2y ago

It is true that trades work has picked up quite a bit. High school kids and their career counselors say the reasons are: - Well-defined career path. - High pay as you keep going ahead. - Union pay and benefits. Incredible stability. Incredible healthcare. - No outsourcing. - Lots of paid leave. None of that unlimited PTO scam. - Lot of camaraderie. None of the corporate nonsense where execs take it all at the expense of people. - Opportunity to start your own business at a certain point. - No large student loan to get started. While not all kids articulate all these points well, but they can tell how their seniors in college are grinding too much for little return - while trades people are working hard, taking vacations, raising families - and buying homes. The average tradesperson in a HCOL is a millionaire by age 40 simply because they could buy a house earlier in their lives. And they are able to start families and live a very stable life. Kids are picking up on this.

linotype 2y ago
You failed to mention any of the downsides: - competition from non-Union labor - broken body by 50 - fewer jobs than programming (there are multiple times as many programming jobs than plumbing, for instance) - working conditions (no office work, expect hot/cold environments potentially far away from family)
- nine_zeros 2y ago
  > competition from non-Union labor Very little. Because non-union workers join the union as soon as they see the benefits. > broken body by 50 As opposed to broken minds by 50 for toxic corporate jobs. > fewer jobs than programming (there are multiple times as many programming jobs than plumbing, for instance) This is true. But that's because software development is considered one large blob while trades is broken into HVAC, plumbing, electrical etc. > working conditions (no office work, expect hot/cold environments potentially far away from family) And yet, they can pick and choose their work for the most part. No badging in for 5 day RTO BS.
  - kortilla 2y ago
    >Very little. Because non-union workers join the union as soon as they see the benefits. This isn't true and sounds like union propaganda. It's very easy to find non-union trade workers in big cities, even very liberal ones that are supportive of unions. >As opposed to broken minds by 50 for toxic corporate jobs. People don't have broken minds from corporate jobs. Physical damage from labor is real and extremely common. Every tradesman 40+ will tell you this. People retiring from corporate jobs do not consistently warn people that your mind will be broken. >And yet, they can pick and choose their work for the most part. No badging in for 5 day RTO BS. Are you joking? RTO isn't a thing because the trades were never allowed to work from home in the first place.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

tennisflyi 2y ago

Bro, what? BLS has them at $48K/year

int0x29 2y ago

I love how they subjected me to a proof of work challenge to view their paywall.

thomasjudge 2y ago

This article and a lot of the discussion fails to make clear that there is a big difference financially between being a plumber/electrician/hvac tech and owning a plumbing/electrical/hvac business

1123581321 2y ago
The whole article is about trades business owners selling for seven figures. When employees are discussed it’s to say they see a 20% pay bump after acquisition but that some owners worry about the fate of the workers post sale. What makes it seem to be conflating owners and non-owners to you?
hhs 2y ago
The article seems pretty clear; it talks mainly about the two business owners, one is Aaron Rice and the other is Dana Spears, as well as the relationship with private equity over time.
ryandrake 2y ago
Seems like every article that sings the financial praises of blue collar "tradesman" work fails to make this distinction. You don't become a millionaire being a plumber. You become a millionaire by owning a plumbing business. Those are two totally different things.
- analog31 2y ago
  A similar problem with "farmers." A farm worker, and a person who owns a farm, are two totally different economic situations. Both work hard, but the economic outcomes are quite different.
  - ryandrake 2y ago
    One thing I've always been curious about is: How many trade business owners come from the working class and actually started out as grunt-work tradesmen, somehow ending up owning their company, and how many are from the business class and have never touched a pipe wrench or wire stripper? You never get the picture from these articles. My uninformed suspicion is that the majority of actual owners are not practitioners, and instead acquired or inherited their business. Would love to be proven wrong with data.

BobbyTables2 2y ago

I’m noticing HVAC systems (installed) are about 3x the price they were 10 years ago. And they is from the cheaper companies that don’t advertise on the radio!

GenerWork 2y ago
General inflation, competent techs are retiring/nearing retiring age, and the fact that new units seem to be more complicated internally/harder to work on (i.e. expensive) are probably why.

elawler24 2y ago

My dad bought a failing HVAC business 30+ years ago, then made it profitable over the years and sold it back to his employees last year. He had the option to take a few highly lucrative PE deals, but it was clear they would squeeze the life out of the employees and customers he had worked hard to support over many years. I can’t imagine how low quality this kind of trade work will become if PE owns them all. It will be similar to vet, dentist, and dermatology clinics which now feel like factories that don’t care about the humans on the other end - often employing fear tactics and sales quotas to incentivize upsells.

bayouborne 2y ago
Highly efficient Mini-split heatpumps are becoming simpler for the moderately technical homeowner to install everyday. 5-6 years ago installation typically involved a vacuum pump, a gauge set, sometimes a flaring tool to re-dress factory terminated line fittings, etc. Fairly inexpensive new 4th gen Mini-split heatpumps are drop-shipped from Amazon, have pre-evacuated line-sets that just bolt up to the inside head and pre-charged outside compressor units. I wonder how wide availability of these relatively cheap units are going to impact the bullish picture described in the WSJ article.
namaria 2y ago
American capitalism really worked way better when it had a geopolitical competitor. Funny how that works.
dopylitty 2y ago
I'm glad you mention dentists/vets. I make it a point to verify local businesses aren't PE owned before I will use them. Of course one of the problems with PE is they hoover up _all_ the businesses in an area so you don't have a choice. There really needs to be regulation in this area preventing a single beneficial entity/controlling entity from buying/owning more than a few percent of a certain type of business in an area.
- wellthisisgreat 2y ago
  How do you find out who owns the business? Literally what kind of question would you ask on the phone?

asdefghyk 2y ago

Observation. The charges of plumbers and HVAC entrepreneurs would also be influenced by the number/supply of such workers. If their are lots plumbers and the same customer demand then it is reasonable plumbers incomes/charges would decrease.

snapetom 2y ago

Back in the early 90's when being a millionaire meant something, I believe it was the NYT that ran a piece about how there were a disproportionate amount of plumbers and electricians in that class. Essentially they outlined how it wasn't a huge leap to grow your own small business in that industry and retire well. As long as you didn't snort/drink/gamble your earnings away.

ChuckMcM 2y ago

There is this joke that goes: "A surgeon calls a plumber to unclog his toilet, the plumber arrives and 30 minutes later it's all back up and running. He tells the surgeon 'That will be $500'. And the surgeon replies, 'Hey I'm a surgeon and even I don't make $500 for 30 minutes work!', and the plumber replies, 'I get it, I didn't make that much when I was doing surgery either!'" :-) But the heart of this is that somehow we brainwashed kids into thinking that they had to be "scientists" or "executives" if they wanted a fulfilling life and a comfortable salary and that just isn't true. If you're unable to find a 'tech job' consider learning how to hang drywall or wire up an outlet and overhead light. There is both work that can be done right now that needs those skills and it can be more rewarding than writing some dark pattern web site that helps a schmuck trick seniors out their money. /endrant

bluGill 2y ago
Nice story but I make far more as an engineer than someone doing electric. The owner of the electric business does well but they need to do office work not the labor you see.
- ChuckMcM 2y ago
  I am happy for you, I really am. It is important to recognize that your experience may not be the experience of others right? While I too had no issue making a good salary through the various tech "crashes" I also know many many people who, for a wide variety of reasons, were not (and are not!) able to. There are a lot of people looking for work right now and their resume is kind of thin. Even with 'big names' in their CV like Google and Meta they are finding it hard to get interviews, much less call backs. Easily a dozen people I've known over the last 5 years have moved "to be with family" which was exactly code for "moving back in with the parents because they can't find gainful employment in an expensive place like the SF Bay Area." When they have asked for my advice I have shared that they are not their "job", they have agency and it is just as meaningful to be in the trades as it is to be in "tech." When I read this story about folks in the trades doing well I thought of those conversations and realized that not everyone has someone to tell them this. Fortunately for you the question hasn't come up, and that is great.

slyall 2y ago

The 1996 book "The Millionaire Next Door" covered this a bit. Lots of contrast between doctors and similar who spent all their income on expensive houses, cars, club memberships etc and people who owned blue collar businesses who bought in similar/more income but lived modestly. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Millionaire_Next_Door https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Millionaire_Next_Door

FpUser 2y ago

>"PE firms across the country have been scooping up home services like HVAC—that is, heating, ventilation and air conditioning—as well as plumbing and electrical companies. They hope to profit by running larger, more profitable operations." There are few things I like less than PE acquiring home services. Now instead of being served by qualified person for a reasonable price they send you an imbecile and charge few times as much. Spoken from a personal experience. FUCK YOU PE.

sub7 2y ago

These are businesses where the knowledge gap is so wide between the service provider and the client mixed with the life or death need of "I need to flush" or "I need heat in the winter" that people routinely get fleeced. Basically means you're about to be hit with a $500-5000 bill for what is likely a $50 part + 30 mins labour. Gross margins don't grow, but they are monsterous.

TrackerFF 2y ago

I mean, hasn't it been like that forever? Here in Norway, the owners of such shops have always been "asset rich", because they pretty much own every asset in their company. That means vehicles, tools, shop, parts and products inventory, and what have you. Prior to enrolling college, I was an (electrician) apprentice. I ditched that for a degree in electrical engineering. During college I took on a variety of part time jobs to support myself - a bunch of them were temp trade jobs. Roofing, construction, and what have you. I'll tell you this though: I've never, ever met a shop owner that didn't work from 7 in the morning to 9 in the evening, minimum 6 days a week. Some of these guys practically grew up in their fathers shop, and have been ingrained with such a hardcore work ethic, that work is all they know. They could liquidate or sell their shop, and retire - but I've yet to meet anyone that does that. I've seen more shop owners die before they retire, due to the lifestyle choices around this kind of work. And those that "retire" will anyway keep hanging around the shop. This usually leads to what we just called "voluntary involuntary" overtime. Basically the shop owners will assume that everyone loves work as much as them, and will assume everyone wants to work overtime 6 hours a day.