14 ms·

Brazilian court orders suspension of X

196 points by mmaia 2y ago

leumon 2y ago
Maybe musk should bring back the onion link to Twitter that he purged.
- crop_rotation 2y ago
  So that the judge can start fining TOR users?
eatonphil 2y ago
> The decision imposes a daily fine of R$50,000 (£6,800) on individuals and companies that attempt to continue using X via VPN. Fining even users is a bit surprising.
- blurbleblurble 2y ago
  How can a court arbitrarily impose fines on users like this?
  - Fabricio20 2y ago
    The goal is that it's a scare tactic. There is no technical way that these fines could be imposed at large, outside of say, people outing themselves publicly or similar. This is the same wording that was used when they blocked Whatsapp.
  - exe34 2y ago
    collaborating with a law breaker in contempt of court.
    - stufffer 2y ago
      Laws don't even seem to be applicable at this point. It is one supreme court justice that is issuing court orders as if he were a king.
      - exe34 2y ago
        The law does apply. Xitter is being sued, but Elon refuses to appoint a legal representative in the country. The judge has the right to ban the product until the owner or their representative shows up.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
  - bubblesnort 2y ago
    They can't. I can easily use a Brazil endpoint to establish a tunnel elsewhere and browse X, formerly Twitter. I suppose they could try fining the VPN service provider. (But even then they won't be able to prove what's going on.)
    - nomdep 2y ago
      The logical next step would be putting you under investigation for using a VPN “because only criminals need privacy”
      - declan_roberts 2y ago
        Getting really close to that
    - artificialprint 2y ago
      Can't you just ban public VPN services in the country? China has nailed it.
      - Cyph0n 2y ago
        China has nailed DPI-based techniques, and I am certain they’re exporting/selling the tech to other nations.
    - declan_roberts 2y ago
      What if you're a public figure, maybe one critical of the government and you're still tweeting while in Brazil? Seems pretty easy to enforce to me regardless of the technical ways people circumvent it.
      - btilly 2y ago
        It would be amusing if the government tried to introduce that as evidence and then got countersued for having used X themselves. I know, I know. There is probably some exemption for law enforcement. Or if that was overlooked, there will be soon. But it was still an amusing thought.
  - marcosdumay 2y ago
    There's a lot to say about the Brazilian Supreme Court abuses of power. And to be complete on the context, I expect it to have teeth.
    - laborcontract 2y ago
      Is it even remotely modeled after the US system of checks and balances? How does the court have what also seems like legislative power?
      - marcosdumay 2y ago
        Yes, it's modeled after the US Constitution. > How does the court have what also seems like legislative power? It doesn't. It just does it anyway. (Technically, it can dictate to courts how to interpret laws. On practice, it dictates things like "a person can only be arrested after a judge hosts a trial and orders it" as "a person can only be arrested after all judges host a trial". The power to interpret laws is extremely ambiguous.)
      - stufffer 2y ago
        Even in the USA courts have some limited investigation powers over matters under the jurisdiction of the court, for example when a draft of the Dobbs abortion ruling was leaked. Brazil has dialed this up to 11 by declaring the Internet as being under their jurisdiction. That means they can act as judge, prosecutor, and jury and issue court orders regarding anything that happens on the Internet. There is zero recourse because they are the supreme court.
      - schleck8 2y ago
        The US is in no position to critique other countries' checks and balances right now with how the Supreme Court works
        ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
        What makes you think that? The US isn't a single person.
  - IG_Semmelweiss 2y ago
    They can't. A thorough explanation of the applicable law, point by point, that demonstrates that what you are saying is complete fantasy: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39966382 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39966382 Why they could: The ruling socialist party is allowing the judge to go on a rampage because the ruling class has too many skeletons in their closet to mount an effective defense against the opposition. They hope they can just play dead during this mess - but if history is any guide, the judge will come after them later.
- outside1234 2y ago
  Probably not going to be enforced, but just the same sort of an own goal. Should have kept the focus on Elon Musk breaking the law.
- purple_ferret 2y ago
  Well we'll see how much teeth this fine based on how much Glenn Greenwald (who can't resist ranting on twitter) winds up owing. Ironic he abandoned the US citing its freedom laws only to wind up in this situation.
  - mikrotikker 2y ago
    Well him and his husband were endlessly targeted at points of entry to the US as retaliation for Glens reporting on Snowden. So he's not wrong is he?
- hintymad 2y ago
  > Fining even users is a bit surprising Not really. Using VPN is illegal in China. The police can put you in jail for using VPNs. Of course, there are very few cases like this even though many people use underground VPNs. This is typical behavior of an authoritarian state: the government reserves the rights to punish you when the situation is right.
  - 6nf 2y ago
    VPNs are not illegal in China. About a third of people in China use VPNs and the govt is fine with VPNs unless you're using it to break the law.
    - hintymad 2y ago
      You’re right, technically VPN is not illegal, as long as the operators abide laws. It is using VPN to get across GFW that is illegal: https://m.sohu.com/a/738815891_800907/?pvid=000115_3w_a#:~:text=%E7%BD%91%E7%BB%9C%E2%80%9C%E7%BF%BB%E5%A2%99%E2%80%9D%E8%BF%9D%E6%B3%95%E5%90%97,%E4%B8%8A%E7%BD%91%E8%A1%8C%E4%B8%BA%E6%9C%89%E6%98%8E%E7%A1%AE%E8%A7%84%E5%AE%9A%E3%80%82 https://m.sohu.com/a/738815891_800907/?pvid=000115_3w_a#:~:t... So, yeah, it is practically illegal to use VPN in China.
      - 6nf 2y ago
        Let me guess, you've never been to China.
IncreasePosts 2y ago
Can anyone speak to the motivations of this judge? Does he have a valid/legal/moral point under Brazilian law with attempts to ban those accounts on X? Or is he just a toady for da Silva?
- outside1234 2y ago
  Yes - there is a law that you need to have legal representation in Brazil and Musk is just flouting the law. So shutdown it is for Musk
  - IncreasePosts 2y ago
    That came after the judge's order to block the accounts. That is a secondary issue, not the primary one. On that topic, can you speak to the judge's orders to freeze the bank accounts of X's legal representative, even after she had resigned? What's the deal there?
    - troupo 2y ago
      Musk is happy to comply with blocking anything and anyone when it suits him: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41404534 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41404534
      - silverliver 2y ago
        Sure but that does not answer GP's question.
  - nomdep 2y ago
    shutdown it is because he didn’t agree on collaborating with a tyrant. Would you do it?
    - polygamous_bat 2y ago
      Elon loves collaborating with tyrants though [1-2], so that theory doesn't check out. [1] https://theintercept.com/2023/03/28/twitter-modi-india-punjab-amritpal-singh/ https://theintercept.com/2023/03/28/twitter-modi-india-punja... [2] https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/05/musk-defends-enabling-turkish-censorship-on-twitter-calling-it-his-choice/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/05/musk-defends-ena...
virgulino 2y ago
"People who use VPN to access X will be subject to daily fines of US$8,900" Edit: Thanks for this user https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41404325 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41404325 for posting the court order and bringing this new information: Apple and Google must remove all VPN apps from their stores! Apple and Google must DELETE all VPN apps already installed on users' phones!!! https://apnews.com/article/brazil-musk-x-suspended-de-moraes-46c9d5c5c895e17d9adfac43e6ac20fd https://apnews.com/article/brazil-musk-x-suspended-de-moraes...
- narrator 2y ago
  I think he's just making it up as he goes along now.
  - facorreia 2y ago
    In Brazil, a Justice of the Supreme Court has the power to impose fines on people and companies that violate the law. In this case, federal law #12.965.
    - pmdr 2y ago
      Can individual judges do as they please without any voting or consensus?
      - NomDePlum 2y ago
        There job is to interpret and implement the law. So they should never do as they please but ensure the law is enforced. Sometimes that's conjunction with a jury or as a panel of judges. Those scenarios involve voting or consensus. But not all judgements are made this way. Decisions can be appealed or challenged by higher courts.
    - virgulino 2y ago
      I did NOT violate the law. How come he is deleting the VPN apps on my phone??? That I need to remote to my overseas job??? How come I I'm now banned from reading what Zelensky, Kasparov, Yann LeCun, and thousands of others world leaders have to say? How come my neighbor, who makes a honest living through X-Twitter, has now lost her job?
guywithahat 2y ago
This has been a bad week for Democracy/freedom of speech
- outside1234 2y ago
  All Elon needs to do is have a legal representative in Brazil for his commercial venture. He chose this.
  - yonaguska 2y ago
    The courts threatened to arrest his legal representation if he didn't comply with their demands to take down accounts accused of spreading misinformation and hate speech. So Elon closed all offices in Brasil. You think he should risk having an employee thrown in jail?
    - jeffbee 2y ago
      Defying a court order can get you arrested in any country.
      - crop_rotation 2y ago
        The orders of the brazilian court are just too arbitrary, and not just in this case. At some point it ceases to be a judicial court and becomes more of an Emperor's court where the Emperor is making laws as he is going on.
        jrflowers 2y ago
        Defying court orders can get you arrested in any country even if you and others deem them to be “too arbitrary”
        crop_rotation 2y ago
        That was not the point I was making. In any case your point applies to defying the monarch too, which might be more applicable here.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
throwaway87267 2y ago
The same judge that is responsible for X's suspension ordered Apple and Google to take down VPN apps from their app stores as well. https://web.archive.org/web/20240830201851/https://www.conjur.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/PET-12404-Assinada.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20240830201851/https://www.conju... (Page 49 and 50, document is in Portuguese) Brazil is heading down a very dark path.
- ddtaylor 2y ago
  For anyone curious: Proton VPN Express VPN NordVPN Surfshark, TOTALVPN Atlas VPN Bitdefender VPN There are some pretty well known VPNs that are NOT on that list. Private Internet Access (PIA) for example is absent. Sure, it's used more for torrenting than anything else, but it's one of the most popular VPNs. I thought maybe PIA just doesn't operate in Brazil, but they actually have a specific page dedicated to it: https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/vpn-server/brazil-vpn https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/vpn-server/brazil-vpn Maybe that VPN is already illegal somehow in Brazil?
  - throwaway87267 2y ago
    The listed VPNs are just examples. The order to take down VPN apps affects every VPN provider.
    - codetrotter 2y ago
      What about apps like WireGuard for iOS, which implements the WireGuard VPN protocol but is not offering any paid VPN services or subscriptions. Are those kinds of apps banned too?
      - virgulino 2y ago
        And what about Anti-Viruses / Security apps, that usually have VPN functionality? This is Kafkaesque!
    - Teknomancer 2y ago
sva_ 2y ago
Gonna enjoy hearing from people defending this because they dislike Elon Musk
consumer451 2y ago
“Twitter doesn’t have a choice but to obey local governments. If we don’t obey local government laws, we will get shut down" - Elon Musk on decision to follow Modi's requests for censorship https://www.business-standard.com/technology/tech-news/twitter-has-no-choice-but-to-obey-local-laws-in-every-country-elon-musk-123062101371_1.html https://www.business-standard.com/technology/tech-news/twitt...
- seydor 2y ago
  This is not the government
  - hungie 2y ago
    The parent is saying Musk complied with these requests elsewhere without complaint, he's only making a fuss about it in Brazil. It's an odd hypocrisy or shift in strategy.
    - seydor 2y ago
      strategy about what? Elon isn't bound by some personal institutional law, he acts according to his whims. Even if we assume he was being hypocritical, the severe response from the judge makes the latter seem like he has ulterior motives ps. every major company has applied double standards wrt censorship requests in the past, the subject has a long history
      - hungie 2y ago
        Strategy about complying with censorship requests. He's happy to do so when it aligns with his politics, and makes a huge fuss when he it doesn't. As a distant observer, it seems wild to me that anyone thinks this is about free speech.
    - wmil 2y ago
      X has an office in Bengaluru that does engineering, so leaving India would be non-trivial. Also Modi is an elected popular leader. India's censorship laws have been passed through the normal means. If Musk pushed back most Indian institutions would rally against him. de Moraes is a chief justice making decrees that it's not clear he has the power to make. He's doing it in an unhinged fashion. Getting out of the country until things cool down is probably the smart move.
ChrisArchitect 2y ago
Related timeline: Starlink will now be free in Brazil since remote hospitals, schools use it: Musk https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41397506 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41397506 Starlink's financial assets frozen in Brazil https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41392962 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41392962
marcellus777 2y ago
for non-Brazilians trying to understand the situation: (1) a supreme court judge ordered X to remove some political profiles saying they are spreading misinformation (2) coincidentally (or not) most (if not all) profiles are from the opposition (3) Elon said that that was censorship and closed the office in Brazil (4) The judge applied hefty fines but those couldn't be fullfied since X doesnt have a bank account in Brazil anymore (5) The judge orders a judicial blockage of Starlink's brazilian branch accounts to pay for X fines (4) Finnally, Brazilian law demands a legal representative (a person who will be liable) and Elon say (very loudly) we would not comply (5) X is now banned by all means
- robertlagrant 2y ago
  What's the structural link between X and Starlink?
  - marcellus777 2y ago
    Both are owned by Musk. I know that is too simple, but that is relatively common in Brazil (to easily link companies because they share owners or shareholders)
    - diegoholiveira 2y ago
      It's not common at all. Musk is shareholder of Starlink, but there are many others. This is kind of thing is only used in cause of fraud like a person who puts other company in name of a third party to avoid fines. It also shows foreign investors that investing in Brazil is unsafe.
      - silverliver 2y ago
        This is the part that is most interesting to me. Sure, judge will eventually get his way but the secondary collateral damage to Brazil is going to be significant. I wonder if the judge had considered this in his ruling.
    - 2y ago
MrBuddyCasino 2y ago
[flagged]
- thrance 2y ago
  A quick google search on Mike Benz came up with his recent interview by Tucker Carlson titled "The Deep State's Step-by-Step Plan to End Free Speech". You know Tucker Carlson is such a big fan of Putin, he was the only western journalist allowed to interview him, which he did. Just listen to the interview, they both just spew fascistic nonsense for two hours. Tucker desperately tries to have Putin condemn the American "wokeness", while the later doesn't listen and lectures Carlson in a "blood and soil" rewriting of 20th century history. So yeah, I don't think anyone should be taking their informations from either of those clowns.
  - hereme888 2y ago
    > A quick google search on Mike Benz....You know Tucker Carlson is such a big fan of Putin... Mike Benz probably uses higher quality evidence for what he presents than a quick Google search, whether he is right or not.
    - thrance 2y ago
      That's the fun part, he really does not.
  - r721 2y ago
    Here's a good article on Mike Benz: https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/internet/michael-benz-rising-voice-conservative-criticism-online-censorship-rcna119213 https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/internet/michael-benz-rising-vo...
- ailun 2y ago
  I don't know who this guy is, but listening to him speak in your link, he does not seem like a good source of information to me.
- mikeyouse 2y ago
wtcactus 2y ago
In judicial systems like the Brazilian (and sadly many European ones) a judge that’s sufficiently high up in the judicial ladder gets to be judge and jury. He is technically bound by the law, but he also has the power to interpret the law as he sees fit (many such cases in Portugal for instance). This system puts too much power in the hands of a single person and as such is ripe for abuse for personal causes… or worst, for personal gains. There’s nothing democratic about this. It should be a jury of fellow peers to decide if someone is guilty of actually breaking a law.
- crop_rotation 2y ago
  I don't think it is about judicial systems and what not. The judge is only able to take dictatorial powers in Brazil because the society as a whole is not in a position to fight against it and kind of accepts it as something unfixable (lots of people might even support it). I doubt the Brazilian Constitution gives him such vast power.
  - brunoarueira 2y ago
    The problem is many politicians who have power to change it or remove such person are dirty and to keep their mandates, prefer to not talk or do anything about it! On the other side the current voters are brain washed or manipulated through presents during the elections to vote in someone, so it'll be a long journey to reverts things here.
- howard941 2y ago
  This peer thing arises from a common law heritage. Brazil operates under civilian law. Totally different.
- blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
  Even in Brazil typically one person does not get to be judge and jury. Alexandre de Moraes is currently on the supreme federal court, and was previously president of the superior electoral court, which is the other top level court in Brazil. Note that De Moraes served on both courts at the same time. As part of his powers on the superior electoral court, he granted himself the authority to perform unilateral censorship through secret orders as part of his duties in the federal court. This is obviously not legal and totally absurd legal theory since it violates the separation of powers of these two courts. These powers should only be granted to the judicial system through new legislation or changes to the constitution.
farceSpherule 2y ago
[flagged]
- Althuns 2y ago
  This is a feature of authoritarianism, not socialism.
  - zchrykng 2y ago
    You say tomato, I say tomato. Not that all authoritarian systems are socialist, but all socialist systems are authoritarian.
    - hungie 2y ago
      That's absolutely nonsense. There are many, many examples of democratically run socialist systems in large and small practices. If you've got an axe to grind, do it somewhere else.
- megaman821 2y ago
  I am not sure anything that ends in punishing Elon Musk is going to deter a socialist.
VerminOctopus1 2y ago
Well this is fun. Nice to see a government with some teeth for once instead of bowing to the whims of every multibillion mega corporation or agitated billionaire.
- crop_rotation 2y ago
  Yes very nice to see a court acting as judge jury and executioner all at once and fining random VPN users random amounts without needing boring things like law. Maybe Plato was right and philospher kings work best. /s
  - blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
    It’s not even a court but a single justice on the court, who claims he got the legal power from the other top level court, which he conveniently served on previously (seriously). No laws were passed to give Alexandre de Moraes the power to issue secret orders to censor, ban, or arrest without due process and without transparency to the public. Obviously no working democracy can tolerate these types of authoritarian attacks on free speech.
- Wytwwww 2y ago
  It's nice to see a government which is threatening to fine its citizens US$8,900 per day for using a website which was banned because it didn't remove the accounts of that government's political opponents?
- inglor_cz 2y ago
  If you want to live under a government with a lot of sharp teeth against capitalists, North Korea may be your ideal country.
- nomdep 2y ago
  I miss the days when religious zealots like you were against sex or whatever
  - VerminOctopus1 2y ago
brigadier132 2y ago
Can someone explain the me what actual power do Brazilian supreme court justices have? Seems like Brazilian judges are like Judge Dredd.
- crop_rotation 2y ago
  The actual power is what a society will accept. At this point it seems like he can do anything a monarch could do in a kinda modern society.
  - brigadier132 2y ago
    Sure but I'm asking in theory, what is the power of justices according to their constitution.
    - facorreia 2y ago
      That's explained in Article 102 of the Brazilian Constitution (in Portuguese): https://constituicao.stf.jus.br/dispositivo/cf-88-parte-1-titulo-4-capitulo-3-secao-2-artigo-102 https://constituicao.stf.jus.br/dispositivo/cf-88-parte-1-ti...
      - brigadier132 2y ago
        So just from skimming a translated version, it does not seem like Judges have the power to impose fines, ban unrelated companies that are owned by the same person, or ban things like VPNs. Am I missing something?
        crop_rotation 2y ago
        You are not missing anything. The Brazilian court has done far more about things which it does not have any basis for. There are many previous HN threads about it as well. Some brazilians had detailed those instances in those threads.
        hungie 2y ago
geraldog 2y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41316512 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41316512
facorreia 2y ago
For the curious, this is the main Brazilian legislation about the topic: https://www.cgi.br/pagina/marco-civil-law-of-the-internet-in-brazil/180 https://www.cgi.br/pagina/marco-civil-law-of-the-internet-in...
declan_roberts 2y ago
For those saying "just use a VPN" -- who is to say the BR government isn't going to use this as a cash extraction weapon against those critical of the state. Pull up a list of all known BR notable people on twitter. See if they tweeted anything since the ban was in effect. Fine them and rake in the $$$. The govt probably WANTS it to be circumvented.
- crop_rotation 2y ago
  VPN users are being fined as part of the order, a pretty massive fine. These rulings are clearly arbitrary and have no basis on anything. They should be thought more like a Monarch's orders. Yes the monarch can any day order using Linux you will have to pay a big fine if he somehow gets angry on Linux.
- lemoncookiechip 2y ago
  They've even asked Google and Apple to take down several popular VPN apps from their stores and delete the apps from user's phones.
jmclnx 2y ago
I am glad to see Brazil is not afraid of these billionaires. If only the US could start enforcing laws the same, no matter what your worth or who you are. I wonder if Brazil is finally going after corruption that I believe exists there. >“implement technological barriers to prevent the use of the X app by users of the iOS and Android systems” and to block the use of VPN applications. I wonder how they can selectivity enforce the VPN part of the ban ?
- ta8645 2y ago
  You should be embarrassed to be such a petty authoritarian cheerleader just because that power is being abused against someone you dislike and disagree with.
  - meroes 2y ago
    You mean like Musk is happy to do what Brazil asked of him/X as long as it’s Turkey or another autocrat like Modi he wants to be in bed with?
    - crop_rotation 2y ago
      The brazilian court can fine X, block X, caese it's Brazilian assets, ask ISPs to block it, block it from app stores, atleast all this they can do with some judicial basis. Fining random VPN user is just going far above and beyond that.
    - postepowanieadm 2y ago
      Then you have to put majority of Europe in bed with Erdogan - people connected with attempted coup were removed from universities in Sweden and Germany - and other countries.
    - diego_sandoval 2y ago
      That's a different subject. The fact that someone does a bad thing doesn't justify a government becoming arbitrarily tyrannical against them and everyone associated with them (in a way that has nothing to do with the bad thing the guy did to begin with). And the bad thing is not even in the same category as what the government is doing, since Musk censoring Twitter is non-coercitive, while Brazil censoring Twitter is coercitive. Equating both is analogous to equating an insult to a punch.
paxys 2y ago
I wonder what all the walled garden lovers have to say about this. Would have been nice to be able to install apps and VPNs on your phones without Apple's or the government's ability to block it right? Or are you still going to stick to the "it's for our own safety" party line?
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- crop_rotation 2y ago
  Walled garden are an orthogonal (although themselves non trivial) issues compared to an arbitrary court issuing random arbitrary monarchical summons. No amount of custom tweaked linux will protect you there.
jrepinc 2y ago
[flagged]
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
theginger 2y ago
What starlink chooses to do will be most interesting, deny any connection, block X like the isps have been ordered and try and get their bank accounts reinstated. Or pull out of Brazil on the ground and operate as a rogue isp whose money can be blocked, in the short term at least but not their service. I hope it's the 2nd, be a lesson to all world leaders, and not just ultra authoritarian ones, that the Internet doesn't respect geographic boarder and you cannot control it like that.
- wtcactus 2y ago
  I’m guessing starlink is already (or soon will be) ilegal to sell in Brazil. So, assuming this judge won’t go as far as forcing people with starlink antennas to remove their existing installations, they will be the only ones able to use outside access. And that is an extremely low percentage of the population.
- viraptor 2y ago
  > that the Internet doesn't respect geographic boarder There's a tonne of regulations already applying to the internet. Yes you can control it like that and many countries do. Twitter already had flags for filtering content based on local laws. It's a cool overall idea, but no. It doesn't work like that in practice. Not for a person not very informed about traffic masking anyway.
- seydor 2y ago
  Starlink ceased operations in brazil and doesnt have a bank account. Musk tweeted that he will keep it for free in brazil because some remote schools use it.
- basementcat 2y ago
  Starlink cannot really operate as a "rogue ISP"; they have to license radio spectrum from Brazil and they have to share lawfully intercepted communications with Law Enforcement.
swader999 2y ago
This might affect our ability to recruit talent from Brazil if the use of VPN is forbidden.
hereme888 2y ago
How would the Brazilian gov. know if a person is visiting X on a VPN, if the VPN is of good quality?
- crop_rotation 2y ago
  They don't need to. Selective enforcement is a key point of dictatorships. They can apply this fine to people they don't like. In general all such orders will have a chilling effect.
- sturob 2y ago
  If they post
  - hereme888 2y ago
    lol, so simple. True. Thanks.
- tux1968 2y ago
  Any Brazilian with a known handle, will be vulnerable the moment they post anything. It doesn't matter the quality of the VPN at all.
  - hu3 2y ago
    What happens if a Brazilian travels to USA and tweets from there. Then returns to Brazil?
kernal 2y ago
The ironic effect of this ludicrous behavior and judgement by this crazy Brazilian judge will be that more people will flock to X. This will be the Streisand effect on steroids.
- VerminOctopus1 2y ago
  Quite the claim and hyperbole. I’m fairly certain the exact opposite will happen because most people are not tech savvy and will not bother to circumvent the blocks in place. Some local alternatives will pop up and they’ll use that instead. Twitter is also no longer the town hall of the internet, or whatever people were calling it.
lemoncookiechip 2y ago
I might not agree with Elon Musk on things he says and does these days, but he's very much in the right here, at least if you value freedom of speech, privacy, and democracy. The judge tried to silence the political opposition on Twitter via shadowbans and removal, Elon didn't comply, so they decided to go after Twitter employees in Brazil, to which Elon shut everything down to prevent the employees from being jailed, then since Twitter has no bank accounts in Brazil, they went after Starlink's accounts, and now they've banned the platform, add to that that they're fining people exorbitant amounts of money for circumventing the ban. I'm oversimplifying it, but the matter of a fact is that this judge and the political party in power are acting like fascists, they've even tried getting several popular VPN applications banned by asking Google and Apple to remove them. EDIT: For those in the comments pointing towards India (Modi) and Turkey (Erdogan). I personally didn't like when Elon bent over for them, he likes to call himself a free speech absolutist, but he's a hypocrite, and those aren't the only two cases of him going against is so called morals, but that doesn't change the fact that this is wrong, and two wrongs don't make a right.
- SiempreViernes 2y ago
  Uh, the judge tried to punish insurrectionist and Twitter agreed to comply and then just didn't as opposed to how they did in India or Turkey.
- swader999 2y ago
  I thought Lula was left wing.
  - Georgelemental 2y ago
    “The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”
    - swader999 2y ago
      Indeed.
FergusArgyll 2y ago
If you're in Brazil: Tails [0] is surprisingly easy to use. Do your own research I guess, but it might help you out. [0] https://tails.net/ https://tails.net/
mrtksn 2y ago
This is a very, very sad day for the Internet. Unfortunately, you can expect that every app and every platform will get localized and blocking will be normalized. Soon TikTok will be blocked in the USA. I expect this to serve as an example and an avalanche to follow across the globe. Blocking a platform for alleged crimes committed the by operator or participants is a punishment for all the users. It’s ridiculous but unfortunately, it appears that the world is ready to accept this as a solution.
- VerminOctopus1 2y ago
  In this case was X not explicitly asked to remove the illegal content? They could have simply complied with the local law and avoided this outcome. With their hardcore engineers I’m sure they could have come up with a region-locked solution.
  - mrtksn 2y ago
    They already have regional blocking, they have been blocking political tweets and accounts in Turkey upon the request of the Turkish government since years now.
    - LightHugger 2y ago
      What is unclear to me from reading articles is whether they are demanding region blocking (which may not be reasonable but at least makes sense) or a global deletion of that content...
      - mrtksn 2y ago
        Right, many places require content be removed globally which I'm sure makes sense from their perspective.
  - hagbard_c 2y ago
    They might have been able to do so but they claim not to want to cooperate with what they consider to be a violation of both Brasilian law as well as their own ethical rules. Make of that what you will but it is a more defensible stance than bending to the will of whatever tyrant pops up even if it does not improve the bottom line.
seydor 2y ago
> X and its former incarnation, Twitter, have been banned in several countries — mostly authoritarian regimes such as Russia, China, Iran, Myanmar, North Korea, Venezuela and Turkmenistan. Other countries, such as Pakistan, Turkey and Egypt, have also temporarily suspended X before, usually to quell dissent and unrest.
dalmo3 2y ago
Slippery slope is a fallacy, they said.
shark1 2y ago
The list below contains all the countries where the government is very worried about the information available on Twitter/X: - Brazil - Venezuela - North Korea - China - Iran - Myanmar - Pakistan - Russia - Turkmenistan
- yimmothathird 2y ago
  [flagged]
- shark1 2y ago
  source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_of_Twitter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_of_Twitter
tmaly 2y ago
This seems similar to the fate TikTok has in store. It is sad to see nation states taking the route of censorship, it seems like some super form of helicopter parenting.
blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
In case people are not aware, numerous professors of law in Brazil, pro democracy organizations, and journalists have called the change in Brazil as a lunge towards authoritarianism. This justice in particular, Alexandre de Moraes, has been called a threat to democracy many times even a few years ago. Example: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/26/world/americas/bolsonaro-brazil-supreme-court.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/26/world/americas/bolsonaro-... Unfortunately the courts have made their own laws. De Moraes claims the court he previously served on gave him the power to issue secret unilateral censorship orders from the court he now serves on. It’s all convenient but obviously doesn’t pass the sniff test for legality. If the Brazilian governments wants new powers to censor the speech of political opponents, it must do so through constitutional change. This is what Twitter/X is defending, and it is the right thing to defend. You cannot have democracy without free speech. And if businesses cannot conduct operations without threat of unreasonable fines and arrest of their legal representatives, then Brazil won’t be a good destination for business either. It is also very telling that Lula, who has a long history of corruption and scandals, came out to endorse Alexandre de Moraes’s actions. Meanwhile, other justices must either stay silent or support them to avoid retribution. It’s a scary time in Brazil.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
geraldog 2y ago
Citing that it might be cumbersome for App Stores to implement the order then revert it, de Moraes reverted the order for Google and Apple to ban VPNs from Stores. I bet it won't stop there. He won't be satisfied until he blocks Tor too, which X / Twitter could plausibly setup as an Onion service. This is all because the National Assembly that promulgated the 1988 Brazilian Constitution chose to specifically ban anonymity. It's on paragraph IV, article 5 of Brazilian Constitution. I got downvoted for posting the obvious topic here so once again: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41316512 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41316512
- Scion9066 2y ago
  X already has an onion service I believe, check the x.com meta tags for "onion-location".
  - geraldog 2y ago
    X Onion Service Seems to be Located at https://twitter3e4tixl4xyajtrzo62zg5vztmjuricljdp2c5kshju4avyoid.onion/ https://twitter3e4tixl4xyajtrzo62zg5vztmjuricljdp2c5kshju4av... in case anyone cares. I certainly don't!
random_dev_1989 2y ago
I can't express in words how horrible it's been to see the country I loved go spiral downhill due to a corrupt president and an non elected judge with ties to the REDACTED faction. At least 30% of the country is in favor of that. The country is infected with corruption everywhere, from small scale to the core. I'm leaving the land my family has worked hard for 200 years and moving to Uruguai. At least I have the option. I always wanted to stay apart from political discussion and for the most of the time I was center-left. From now on, I do not help nor connect with any cockroach who endorse this (the brazilian left wing party).
hax0ron3 2y ago
It is funny how many people who, if Putin's Russia did this, would immediately understand what is going on here and not make complicated excuses about law or the subtle nature of free speech, instead when Brazil does this pretend that this is something different simply because they so vehemently disagree with Musk and his politics. Of course most of those people also disagree with Putin's politics, but to them Musk is the "near enemy", which is more dangerous to them than the "far enemy". If one sees any fundamental psychological drive in an average American's positive reaction to this news other than pure tribal/religious desire to annihilate their political opponents, one has not yet put on those nice sunglasses from They Live. Don't get me wrong, of course there is the occasional actually principled rational person, but overall the vast majority of reactions to this fall along tribal lines, even here at the orange site, which maybe once was full of geeky libertarian types but has clearly for a long time now been overrun by a different sort of person.
itherseed 2y ago
Not my words by an accurate statement: "A Brazilian judge tells Elon that he has to block certain users of X. Elon says no. The judge says that he will then put X's legal representative in Brazil in jail. Elon closes the offices in Brazil. The judge says that he has to have a legal representative in Brazil, that is what the law says. Elon says "if I name another representative you will put him in jail". Then the judge orders X to be blocked in Brazil. And he threatens to fine those who try to use X in Brazil through VPNs. In other words, users who easily use X in Brazil to see memes become potential criminals when they did nothing illegal. It's crazy. It's an abuse of authority. Because let's suppose that Carlinho Da Souza calls for burning all the kids alive, the one who commits a crime (let's suppose) is Carlinho, and Justice should be focused on him, not on the company that provides its platform without knowing beforehand that Carlinho is an idiot, and even knowing it later from his posts. And you shouldn't demand that the company prevent Carlinho from exposing his stupidity, that would be like telling the cell phone company not to let me talk on the phone because I threatened to break someone's face. And then, since the company says no, it won't prevent me from talking on the phone, then it blocks the cell phone signal throughout the country, for everyone. Freedom of expression is being able to say what you want and take responsibility for the consequences. But the consequences are for the alleged offender, not for people who have nothing to do with it. To make another cheap analogy, if someone stabs a neighbor, you can't ban knives and force butchers to cut meat with their teeth."
silverliver 2y ago
Somebody needs to patiently sit down with this judge and explain to him that the jurisdiction of his court (and his understanding of technology) has limits. Good luck, Brazil.
virgulino 2y ago
Starlink will not block X-Twitter in Brazil: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41421531 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41421531

196 points by mmaia 2y ago

leumon 2y ago

Maybe musk should bring back the onion link to Twitter that he purged.

crop_rotation 2y ago
So that the judge can start fining TOR users?

eatonphil 2y ago

> The decision imposes a daily fine of R$50,000 (£6,800) on individuals and companies that attempt to continue using X via VPN. Fining even users is a bit surprising.

blurbleblurble 2y ago
How can a court arbitrarily impose fines on users like this?
- Fabricio20 2y ago
  The goal is that it's a scare tactic. There is no technical way that these fines could be imposed at large, outside of say, people outing themselves publicly or similar. This is the same wording that was used when they blocked Whatsapp.
- exe34 2y ago
  collaborating with a law breaker in contempt of court.
  - stufffer 2y ago
    Laws don't even seem to be applicable at this point. It is one supreme court justice that is issuing court orders as if he were a king.
    - exe34 2y ago
      The law does apply. Xitter is being sued, but Elon refuses to appoint a legal representative in the country. The judge has the right to ban the product until the owner or their representative shows up.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
- bubblesnort 2y ago
  They can't. I can easily use a Brazil endpoint to establish a tunnel elsewhere and browse X, formerly Twitter. I suppose they could try fining the VPN service provider. (But even then they won't be able to prove what's going on.)
  - nomdep 2y ago
    The logical next step would be putting you under investigation for using a VPN “because only criminals need privacy”
    - declan_roberts 2y ago
      Getting really close to that
  - artificialprint 2y ago
    Can't you just ban public VPN services in the country? China has nailed it.
    - Cyph0n 2y ago
      China has nailed DPI-based techniques, and I am certain they’re exporting/selling the tech to other nations.
  - declan_roberts 2y ago
    What if you're a public figure, maybe one critical of the government and you're still tweeting while in Brazil? Seems pretty easy to enforce to me regardless of the technical ways people circumvent it.
    - btilly 2y ago
      It would be amusing if the government tried to introduce that as evidence and then got countersued for having used X themselves. I know, I know. There is probably some exemption for law enforcement. Or if that was overlooked, there will be soon. But it was still an amusing thought.
- marcosdumay 2y ago
  There's a lot to say about the Brazilian Supreme Court abuses of power. And to be complete on the context, I expect it to have teeth.
  - laborcontract 2y ago
    Is it even remotely modeled after the US system of checks and balances? How does the court have what also seems like legislative power?
    - marcosdumay 2y ago
      Yes, it's modeled after the US Constitution. > How does the court have what also seems like legislative power? It doesn't. It just does it anyway. (Technically, it can dictate to courts how to interpret laws. On practice, it dictates things like "a person can only be arrested after a judge hosts a trial and orders it" as "a person can only be arrested after all judges host a trial". The power to interpret laws is extremely ambiguous.)
    - stufffer 2y ago
      Even in the USA courts have some limited investigation powers over matters under the jurisdiction of the court, for example when a draft of the Dobbs abortion ruling was leaked. Brazil has dialed this up to 11 by declaring the Internet as being under their jurisdiction. That means they can act as judge, prosecutor, and jury and issue court orders regarding anything that happens on the Internet. There is zero recourse because they are the supreme court.
    - schleck8 2y ago
      The US is in no position to critique other countries' checks and balances right now with how the Supreme Court works
      - ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
        What makes you think that? The US isn't a single person.
- IG_Semmelweiss 2y ago
  They can't. A thorough explanation of the applicable law, point by point, that demonstrates that what you are saying is complete fantasy: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39966382 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39966382 Why they could: The ruling socialist party is allowing the judge to go on a rampage because the ruling class has too many skeletons in their closet to mount an effective defense against the opposition. They hope they can just play dead during this mess - but if history is any guide, the judge will come after them later.
outside1234 2y ago
Probably not going to be enforced, but just the same sort of an own goal. Should have kept the focus on Elon Musk breaking the law.
purple_ferret 2y ago
Well we'll see how much teeth this fine based on how much Glenn Greenwald (who can't resist ranting on twitter) winds up owing. Ironic he abandoned the US citing its freedom laws only to wind up in this situation.
- mikrotikker 2y ago
  Well him and his husband were endlessly targeted at points of entry to the US as retaliation for Glens reporting on Snowden. So he's not wrong is he?
hintymad 2y ago
> Fining even users is a bit surprising Not really. Using VPN is illegal in China. The police can put you in jail for using VPNs. Of course, there are very few cases like this even though many people use underground VPNs. This is typical behavior of an authoritarian state: the government reserves the rights to punish you when the situation is right.
- 6nf 2y ago
  VPNs are not illegal in China. About a third of people in China use VPNs and the govt is fine with VPNs unless you're using it to break the law.
  - hintymad 2y ago
    You’re right, technically VPN is not illegal, as long as the operators abide laws. It is using VPN to get across GFW that is illegal: https://m.sohu.com/a/738815891_800907/?pvid=000115_3w_a#:~:text=%E7%BD%91%E7%BB%9C%E2%80%9C%E7%BF%BB%E5%A2%99%E2%80%9D%E8%BF%9D%E6%B3%95%E5%90%97,%E4%B8%8A%E7%BD%91%E8%A1%8C%E4%B8%BA%E6%9C%89%E6%98%8E%E7%A1%AE%E8%A7%84%E5%AE%9A%E3%80%82 https://m.sohu.com/a/738815891_800907/?pvid=000115_3w_a#:~:t... So, yeah, it is practically illegal to use VPN in China.
    - 6nf 2y ago
      Let me guess, you've never been to China.

IncreasePosts 2y ago

Can anyone speak to the motivations of this judge? Does he have a valid/legal/moral point under Brazilian law with attempts to ban those accounts on X? Or is he just a toady for da Silva?

outside1234 2y ago
Yes - there is a law that you need to have legal representation in Brazil and Musk is just flouting the law. So shutdown it is for Musk
- IncreasePosts 2y ago
  That came after the judge's order to block the accounts. That is a secondary issue, not the primary one. On that topic, can you speak to the judge's orders to freeze the bank accounts of X's legal representative, even after she had resigned? What's the deal there?
  - troupo 2y ago
    Musk is happy to comply with blocking anything and anyone when it suits him: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41404534 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41404534
    - silverliver 2y ago
      Sure but that does not answer GP's question.
- nomdep 2y ago
  shutdown it is because he didn’t agree on collaborating with a tyrant. Would you do it?
  - polygamous_bat 2y ago
    Elon loves collaborating with tyrants though [1-2], so that theory doesn't check out. [1] https://theintercept.com/2023/03/28/twitter-modi-india-punjab-amritpal-singh/ https://theintercept.com/2023/03/28/twitter-modi-india-punja... [2] https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/05/musk-defends-enabling-turkish-censorship-on-twitter-calling-it-his-choice/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/05/musk-defends-ena...

virgulino 2y ago

"People who use VPN to access X will be subject to daily fines of US$8,900" Edit: Thanks for this user https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41404325 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41404325 for posting the court order and bringing this new information: Apple and Google must remove all VPN apps from their stores! Apple and Google must DELETE all VPN apps already installed on users' phones!!! https://apnews.com/article/brazil-musk-x-suspended-de-moraes-46c9d5c5c895e17d9adfac43e6ac20fd https://apnews.com/article/brazil-musk-x-suspended-de-moraes...

narrator 2y ago
I think he's just making it up as he goes along now.
- facorreia 2y ago
  In Brazil, a Justice of the Supreme Court has the power to impose fines on people and companies that violate the law. In this case, federal law #12.965.
  - pmdr 2y ago
    Can individual judges do as they please without any voting or consensus?
    - NomDePlum 2y ago
      There job is to interpret and implement the law. So they should never do as they please but ensure the law is enforced. Sometimes that's conjunction with a jury or as a panel of judges. Those scenarios involve voting or consensus. But not all judgements are made this way. Decisions can be appealed or challenged by higher courts.
  - virgulino 2y ago
    I did NOT violate the law. How come he is deleting the VPN apps on my phone??? That I need to remote to my overseas job??? How come I I'm now banned from reading what Zelensky, Kasparov, Yann LeCun, and thousands of others world leaders have to say? How come my neighbor, who makes a honest living through X-Twitter, has now lost her job?

guywithahat 2y ago

This has been a bad week for Democracy/freedom of speech

outside1234 2y ago
All Elon needs to do is have a legal representative in Brazil for his commercial venture. He chose this.
- yonaguska 2y ago
  The courts threatened to arrest his legal representation if he didn't comply with their demands to take down accounts accused of spreading misinformation and hate speech. So Elon closed all offices in Brasil. You think he should risk having an employee thrown in jail?
  - jeffbee 2y ago
    Defying a court order can get you arrested in any country.
    - crop_rotation 2y ago
      The orders of the brazilian court are just too arbitrary, and not just in this case. At some point it ceases to be a judicial court and becomes more of an Emperor's court where the Emperor is making laws as he is going on.
      - jrflowers 2y ago
        Defying court orders can get you arrested in any country even if you and others deem them to be “too arbitrary”
        crop_rotation 2y ago
        That was not the point I was making. In any case your point applies to defying the monarch too, which might be more applicable here.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

throwaway87267 2y ago

The same judge that is responsible for X's suspension ordered Apple and Google to take down VPN apps from their app stores as well. https://web.archive.org/web/20240830201851/https://www.conjur.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/PET-12404-Assinada.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20240830201851/https://www.conju... (Page 49 and 50, document is in Portuguese) Brazil is heading down a very dark path.

ddtaylor 2y ago
For anyone curious: Proton VPN Express VPN NordVPN Surfshark, TOTALVPN Atlas VPN Bitdefender VPN There are some pretty well known VPNs that are NOT on that list. Private Internet Access (PIA) for example is absent. Sure, it's used more for torrenting than anything else, but it's one of the most popular VPNs. I thought maybe PIA just doesn't operate in Brazil, but they actually have a specific page dedicated to it: https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/vpn-server/brazil-vpn https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/vpn-server/brazil-vpn Maybe that VPN is already illegal somehow in Brazil?
- throwaway87267 2y ago
  The listed VPNs are just examples. The order to take down VPN apps affects every VPN provider.
  - codetrotter 2y ago
    What about apps like WireGuard for iOS, which implements the WireGuard VPN protocol but is not offering any paid VPN services or subscriptions. Are those kinds of apps banned too?
    - virgulino 2y ago
      And what about Anti-Viruses / Security apps, that usually have VPN functionality? This is Kafkaesque!
  - Teknomancer 2y ago

sva_ 2y ago

Gonna enjoy hearing from people defending this because they dislike Elon Musk

consumer451 2y ago

“Twitter doesn’t have a choice but to obey local governments. If we don’t obey local government laws, we will get shut down" - Elon Musk on decision to follow Modi's requests for censorship https://www.business-standard.com/technology/tech-news/twitter-has-no-choice-but-to-obey-local-laws-in-every-country-elon-musk-123062101371_1.html https://www.business-standard.com/technology/tech-news/twitt...

seydor 2y ago
This is not the government
- hungie 2y ago
  The parent is saying Musk complied with these requests elsewhere without complaint, he's only making a fuss about it in Brazil. It's an odd hypocrisy or shift in strategy.
  - seydor 2y ago
    strategy about what? Elon isn't bound by some personal institutional law, he acts according to his whims. Even if we assume he was being hypocritical, the severe response from the judge makes the latter seem like he has ulterior motives ps. every major company has applied double standards wrt censorship requests in the past, the subject has a long history
    - hungie 2y ago
      Strategy about complying with censorship requests. He's happy to do so when it aligns with his politics, and makes a huge fuss when he it doesn't. As a distant observer, it seems wild to me that anyone thinks this is about free speech.
  - wmil 2y ago
    X has an office in Bengaluru that does engineering, so leaving India would be non-trivial. Also Modi is an elected popular leader. India's censorship laws have been passed through the normal means. If Musk pushed back most Indian institutions would rally against him. de Moraes is a chief justice making decrees that it's not clear he has the power to make. He's doing it in an unhinged fashion. Getting out of the country until things cool down is probably the smart move.

ChrisArchitect 2y ago

Related timeline: Starlink will now be free in Brazil since remote hospitals, schools use it: Musk https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41397506 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41397506 Starlink's financial assets frozen in Brazil https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41392962 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41392962

marcellus777 2y ago

for non-Brazilians trying to understand the situation: (1) a supreme court judge ordered X to remove some political profiles saying they are spreading misinformation (2) coincidentally (or not) most (if not all) profiles are from the opposition (3) Elon said that that was censorship and closed the office in Brazil (4) The judge applied hefty fines but those couldn't be fullfied since X doesnt have a bank account in Brazil anymore (5) The judge orders a judicial blockage of Starlink's brazilian branch accounts to pay for X fines (4) Finnally, Brazilian law demands a legal representative (a person who will be liable) and Elon say (very loudly) we would not comply (5) X is now banned by all means

robertlagrant 2y ago
What's the structural link between X and Starlink?
- marcellus777 2y ago
  Both are owned by Musk. I know that is too simple, but that is relatively common in Brazil (to easily link companies because they share owners or shareholders)
  - diegoholiveira 2y ago
    It's not common at all. Musk is shareholder of Starlink, but there are many others. This is kind of thing is only used in cause of fraud like a person who puts other company in name of a third party to avoid fines. It also shows foreign investors that investing in Brazil is unsafe.
    - silverliver 2y ago
      This is the part that is most interesting to me. Sure, judge will eventually get his way but the secondary collateral damage to Brazil is going to be significant. I wonder if the judge had considered this in his ruling.
  - 2y ago

MrBuddyCasino 2y ago

[flagged]

thrance 2y ago
A quick google search on Mike Benz came up with his recent interview by Tucker Carlson titled "The Deep State's Step-by-Step Plan to End Free Speech". You know Tucker Carlson is such a big fan of Putin, he was the only western journalist allowed to interview him, which he did. Just listen to the interview, they both just spew fascistic nonsense for two hours. Tucker desperately tries to have Putin condemn the American "wokeness", while the later doesn't listen and lectures Carlson in a "blood and soil" rewriting of 20th century history. So yeah, I don't think anyone should be taking their informations from either of those clowns.
- hereme888 2y ago
  > A quick google search on Mike Benz....You know Tucker Carlson is such a big fan of Putin... Mike Benz probably uses higher quality evidence for what he presents than a quick Google search, whether he is right or not.
  - thrance 2y ago
    That's the fun part, he really does not.
- r721 2y ago
  Here's a good article on Mike Benz: https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/internet/michael-benz-rising-voice-conservative-criticism-online-censorship-rcna119213 https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/internet/michael-benz-rising-vo...
ailun 2y ago
I don't know who this guy is, but listening to him speak in your link, he does not seem like a good source of information to me.
mikeyouse 2y ago

wtcactus 2y ago

In judicial systems like the Brazilian (and sadly many European ones) a judge that’s sufficiently high up in the judicial ladder gets to be judge and jury. He is technically bound by the law, but he also has the power to interpret the law as he sees fit (many such cases in Portugal for instance). This system puts too much power in the hands of a single person and as such is ripe for abuse for personal causes… or worst, for personal gains. There’s nothing democratic about this. It should be a jury of fellow peers to decide if someone is guilty of actually breaking a law.

crop_rotation 2y ago
I don't think it is about judicial systems and what not. The judge is only able to take dictatorial powers in Brazil because the society as a whole is not in a position to fight against it and kind of accepts it as something unfixable (lots of people might even support it). I doubt the Brazilian Constitution gives him such vast power.
- brunoarueira 2y ago
  The problem is many politicians who have power to change it or remove such person are dirty and to keep their mandates, prefer to not talk or do anything about it! On the other side the current voters are brain washed or manipulated through presents during the elections to vote in someone, so it'll be a long journey to reverts things here.
howard941 2y ago
This peer thing arises from a common law heritage. Brazil operates under civilian law. Totally different.
blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
Even in Brazil typically one person does not get to be judge and jury. Alexandre de Moraes is currently on the supreme federal court, and was previously president of the superior electoral court, which is the other top level court in Brazil. Note that De Moraes served on both courts at the same time. As part of his powers on the superior electoral court, he granted himself the authority to perform unilateral censorship through secret orders as part of his duties in the federal court. This is obviously not legal and totally absurd legal theory since it violates the separation of powers of these two courts. These powers should only be granted to the judicial system through new legislation or changes to the constitution.

farceSpherule 2y ago

[flagged]

Althuns 2y ago
This is a feature of authoritarianism, not socialism.
- zchrykng 2y ago
  You say tomato, I say tomato. Not that all authoritarian systems are socialist, but all socialist systems are authoritarian.
  - hungie 2y ago
    That's absolutely nonsense. There are many, many examples of democratically run socialist systems in large and small practices. If you've got an axe to grind, do it somewhere else.
megaman821 2y ago
I am not sure anything that ends in punishing Elon Musk is going to deter a socialist.

VerminOctopus1 2y ago

Well this is fun. Nice to see a government with some teeth for once instead of bowing to the whims of every multibillion mega corporation or agitated billionaire.

crop_rotation 2y ago
Yes very nice to see a court acting as judge jury and executioner all at once and fining random VPN users random amounts without needing boring things like law. Maybe Plato was right and philospher kings work best. /s
- blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
  It’s not even a court but a single justice on the court, who claims he got the legal power from the other top level court, which he conveniently served on previously (seriously). No laws were passed to give Alexandre de Moraes the power to issue secret orders to censor, ban, or arrest without due process and without transparency to the public. Obviously no working democracy can tolerate these types of authoritarian attacks on free speech.
Wytwwww 2y ago
It's nice to see a government which is threatening to fine its citizens US$8,900 per day for using a website which was banned because it didn't remove the accounts of that government's political opponents?
inglor_cz 2y ago
If you want to live under a government with a lot of sharp teeth against capitalists, North Korea may be your ideal country.
nomdep 2y ago
I miss the days when religious zealots like you were against sex or whatever
- VerminOctopus1 2y ago

brigadier132 2y ago

Can someone explain the me what actual power do Brazilian supreme court justices have? Seems like Brazilian judges are like Judge Dredd.

crop_rotation 2y ago
The actual power is what a society will accept. At this point it seems like he can do anything a monarch could do in a kinda modern society.
- brigadier132 2y ago
  Sure but I'm asking in theory, what is the power of justices according to their constitution.
  - facorreia 2y ago
    That's explained in Article 102 of the Brazilian Constitution (in Portuguese): https://constituicao.stf.jus.br/dispositivo/cf-88-parte-1-titulo-4-capitulo-3-secao-2-artigo-102 https://constituicao.stf.jus.br/dispositivo/cf-88-parte-1-ti...
    - brigadier132 2y ago
      So just from skimming a translated version, it does not seem like Judges have the power to impose fines, ban unrelated companies that are owned by the same person, or ban things like VPNs. Am I missing something?
      - crop_rotation 2y ago
        You are not missing anything. The Brazilian court has done far more about things which it does not have any basis for. There are many previous HN threads about it as well. Some brazilians had detailed those instances in those threads.
      - hungie 2y ago

geraldog 2y ago

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41316512 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41316512

facorreia 2y ago

For the curious, this is the main Brazilian legislation about the topic: https://www.cgi.br/pagina/marco-civil-law-of-the-internet-in-brazil/180 https://www.cgi.br/pagina/marco-civil-law-of-the-internet-in...

declan_roberts 2y ago

For those saying "just use a VPN" -- who is to say the BR government isn't going to use this as a cash extraction weapon against those critical of the state. Pull up a list of all known BR notable people on twitter. See if they tweeted anything since the ban was in effect. Fine them and rake in the $$$. The govt probably WANTS it to be circumvented.

crop_rotation 2y ago
VPN users are being fined as part of the order, a pretty massive fine. These rulings are clearly arbitrary and have no basis on anything. They should be thought more like a Monarch's orders. Yes the monarch can any day order using Linux you will have to pay a big fine if he somehow gets angry on Linux.
lemoncookiechip 2y ago
They've even asked Google and Apple to take down several popular VPN apps from their stores and delete the apps from user's phones.

jmclnx 2y ago

I am glad to see Brazil is not afraid of these billionaires. If only the US could start enforcing laws the same, no matter what your worth or who you are. I wonder if Brazil is finally going after corruption that I believe exists there. >“implement technological barriers to prevent the use of the X app by users of the iOS and Android systems” and to block the use of VPN applications. I wonder how they can selectivity enforce the VPN part of the ban ?

ta8645 2y ago
You should be embarrassed to be such a petty authoritarian cheerleader just because that power is being abused against someone you dislike and disagree with.
- meroes 2y ago
  You mean like Musk is happy to do what Brazil asked of him/X as long as it’s Turkey or another autocrat like Modi he wants to be in bed with?
  - crop_rotation 2y ago
    The brazilian court can fine X, block X, caese it's Brazilian assets, ask ISPs to block it, block it from app stores, atleast all this they can do with some judicial basis. Fining random VPN user is just going far above and beyond that.
  - postepowanieadm 2y ago
    Then you have to put majority of Europe in bed with Erdogan - people connected with attempted coup were removed from universities in Sweden and Germany - and other countries.
  - diego_sandoval 2y ago
    That's a different subject. The fact that someone does a bad thing doesn't justify a government becoming arbitrarily tyrannical against them and everyone associated with them (in a way that has nothing to do with the bad thing the guy did to begin with). And the bad thing is not even in the same category as what the government is doing, since Musk censoring Twitter is non-coercitive, while Brazil censoring Twitter is coercitive. Equating both is analogous to equating an insult to a punch.

paxys 2y ago

I wonder what all the walled garden lovers have to say about this. Would have been nice to be able to install apps and VPNs on your phones without Apple's or the government's ability to block it right? Or are you still going to stick to the "it's for our own safety" party line?

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
crop_rotation 2y ago
Walled garden are an orthogonal (although themselves non trivial) issues compared to an arbitrary court issuing random arbitrary monarchical summons. No amount of custom tweaked linux will protect you there.

jrepinc 2y ago

[flagged]

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

theginger 2y ago

What starlink chooses to do will be most interesting, deny any connection, block X like the isps have been ordered and try and get their bank accounts reinstated. Or pull out of Brazil on the ground and operate as a rogue isp whose money can be blocked, in the short term at least but not their service. I hope it's the 2nd, be a lesson to all world leaders, and not just ultra authoritarian ones, that the Internet doesn't respect geographic boarder and you cannot control it like that.

wtcactus 2y ago
I’m guessing starlink is already (or soon will be) ilegal to sell in Brazil. So, assuming this judge won’t go as far as forcing people with starlink antennas to remove their existing installations, they will be the only ones able to use outside access. And that is an extremely low percentage of the population.
viraptor 2y ago
> that the Internet doesn't respect geographic boarder There's a tonne of regulations already applying to the internet. Yes you can control it like that and many countries do. Twitter already had flags for filtering content based on local laws. It's a cool overall idea, but no. It doesn't work like that in practice. Not for a person not very informed about traffic masking anyway.
seydor 2y ago
Starlink ceased operations in brazil and doesnt have a bank account. Musk tweeted that he will keep it for free in brazil because some remote schools use it.
basementcat 2y ago
Starlink cannot really operate as a "rogue ISP"; they have to license radio spectrum from Brazil and they have to share lawfully intercepted communications with Law Enforcement.

swader999 2y ago

This might affect our ability to recruit talent from Brazil if the use of VPN is forbidden.

hereme888 2y ago

How would the Brazilian gov. know if a person is visiting X on a VPN, if the VPN is of good quality?

crop_rotation 2y ago
They don't need to. Selective enforcement is a key point of dictatorships. They can apply this fine to people they don't like. In general all such orders will have a chilling effect.
sturob 2y ago
If they post
- hereme888 2y ago
  lol, so simple. True. Thanks.
tux1968 2y ago
Any Brazilian with a known handle, will be vulnerable the moment they post anything. It doesn't matter the quality of the VPN at all.
- hu3 2y ago
  What happens if a Brazilian travels to USA and tweets from there. Then returns to Brazil?

kernal 2y ago

The ironic effect of this ludicrous behavior and judgement by this crazy Brazilian judge will be that more people will flock to X. This will be the Streisand effect on steroids.

VerminOctopus1 2y ago
Quite the claim and hyperbole. I’m fairly certain the exact opposite will happen because most people are not tech savvy and will not bother to circumvent the blocks in place. Some local alternatives will pop up and they’ll use that instead. Twitter is also no longer the town hall of the internet, or whatever people were calling it.

lemoncookiechip 2y ago

I might not agree with Elon Musk on things he says and does these days, but he's very much in the right here, at least if you value freedom of speech, privacy, and democracy. The judge tried to silence the political opposition on Twitter via shadowbans and removal, Elon didn't comply, so they decided to go after Twitter employees in Brazil, to which Elon shut everything down to prevent the employees from being jailed, then since Twitter has no bank accounts in Brazil, they went after Starlink's accounts, and now they've banned the platform, add to that that they're fining people exorbitant amounts of money for circumventing the ban. I'm oversimplifying it, but the matter of a fact is that this judge and the political party in power are acting like fascists, they've even tried getting several popular VPN applications banned by asking Google and Apple to remove them. EDIT: For those in the comments pointing towards India (Modi) and Turkey (Erdogan). I personally didn't like when Elon bent over for them, he likes to call himself a free speech absolutist, but he's a hypocrite, and those aren't the only two cases of him going against is so called morals, but that doesn't change the fact that this is wrong, and two wrongs don't make a right.

SiempreViernes 2y ago
Uh, the judge tried to punish insurrectionist and Twitter agreed to comply and then just didn't as opposed to how they did in India or Turkey.
swader999 2y ago
I thought Lula was left wing.
- Georgelemental 2y ago
  “The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”
  - swader999 2y ago
    Indeed.

FergusArgyll 2y ago

If you're in Brazil: Tails [0] is surprisingly easy to use. Do your own research I guess, but it might help you out. [0] https://tails.net/ https://tails.net/

mrtksn 2y ago

This is a very, very sad day for the Internet. Unfortunately, you can expect that every app and every platform will get localized and blocking will be normalized. Soon TikTok will be blocked in the USA. I expect this to serve as an example and an avalanche to follow across the globe. Blocking a platform for alleged crimes committed the by operator or participants is a punishment for all the users. It’s ridiculous but unfortunately, it appears that the world is ready to accept this as a solution.

VerminOctopus1 2y ago
In this case was X not explicitly asked to remove the illegal content? They could have simply complied with the local law and avoided this outcome. With their hardcore engineers I’m sure they could have come up with a region-locked solution.
- mrtksn 2y ago
  They already have regional blocking, they have been blocking political tweets and accounts in Turkey upon the request of the Turkish government since years now.
  - LightHugger 2y ago
    What is unclear to me from reading articles is whether they are demanding region blocking (which may not be reasonable but at least makes sense) or a global deletion of that content...
    - mrtksn 2y ago
      Right, many places require content be removed globally which I'm sure makes sense from their perspective.
- hagbard_c 2y ago
  They might have been able to do so but they claim not to want to cooperate with what they consider to be a violation of both Brasilian law as well as their own ethical rules. Make of that what you will but it is a more defensible stance than bending to the will of whatever tyrant pops up even if it does not improve the bottom line.

seydor 2y ago

> X and its former incarnation, Twitter, have been banned in several countries — mostly authoritarian regimes such as Russia, China, Iran, Myanmar, North Korea, Venezuela and Turkmenistan. Other countries, such as Pakistan, Turkey and Egypt, have also temporarily suspended X before, usually to quell dissent and unrest.

dalmo3 2y ago

Slippery slope is a fallacy, they said.

shark1 2y ago

The list below contains all the countries where the government is very worried about the information available on Twitter/X: - Brazil - Venezuela - North Korea - China - Iran - Myanmar - Pakistan - Russia - Turkmenistan

yimmothathird 2y ago
[flagged]
shark1 2y ago
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_of_Twitter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_of_Twitter

tmaly 2y ago

This seems similar to the fate TikTok has in store. It is sad to see nation states taking the route of censorship, it seems like some super form of helicopter parenting.

blackeyeblitzar 2y ago

In case people are not aware, numerous professors of law in Brazil, pro democracy organizations, and journalists have called the change in Brazil as a lunge towards authoritarianism. This justice in particular, Alexandre de Moraes, has been called a threat to democracy many times even a few years ago. Example: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/26/world/americas/bolsonaro-brazil-supreme-court.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/26/world/americas/bolsonaro-... Unfortunately the courts have made their own laws. De Moraes claims the court he previously served on gave him the power to issue secret unilateral censorship orders from the court he now serves on. It’s all convenient but obviously doesn’t pass the sniff test for legality. If the Brazilian governments wants new powers to censor the speech of political opponents, it must do so through constitutional change. This is what Twitter/X is defending, and it is the right thing to defend. You cannot have democracy without free speech. And if businesses cannot conduct operations without threat of unreasonable fines and arrest of their legal representatives, then Brazil won’t be a good destination for business either. It is also very telling that Lula, who has a long history of corruption and scandals, came out to endorse Alexandre de Moraes’s actions. Meanwhile, other justices must either stay silent or support them to avoid retribution. It’s a scary time in Brazil.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

geraldog 2y ago

Citing that it might be cumbersome for App Stores to implement the order then revert it, de Moraes reverted the order for Google and Apple to ban VPNs from Stores. I bet it won't stop there. He won't be satisfied until he blocks Tor too, which X / Twitter could plausibly setup as an Onion service. This is all because the National Assembly that promulgated the 1988 Brazilian Constitution chose to specifically ban anonymity. It's on paragraph IV, article 5 of Brazilian Constitution. I got downvoted for posting the obvious topic here so once again: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41316512 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41316512

Scion9066 2y ago
X already has an onion service I believe, check the x.com meta tags for "onion-location".
- geraldog 2y ago
  X Onion Service Seems to be Located at https://twitter3e4tixl4xyajtrzo62zg5vztmjuricljdp2c5kshju4avyoid.onion/ https://twitter3e4tixl4xyajtrzo62zg5vztmjuricljdp2c5kshju4av... in case anyone cares. I certainly don't!

random_dev_1989 2y ago

I can't express in words how horrible it's been to see the country I loved go spiral downhill due to a corrupt president and an non elected judge with ties to the REDACTED faction. At least 30% of the country is in favor of that. The country is infected with corruption everywhere, from small scale to the core. I'm leaving the land my family has worked hard for 200 years and moving to Uruguai. At least I have the option. I always wanted to stay apart from political discussion and for the most of the time I was center-left. From now on, I do not help nor connect with any cockroach who endorse this (the brazilian left wing party).

hax0ron3 2y ago

It is funny how many people who, if Putin's Russia did this, would immediately understand what is going on here and not make complicated excuses about law or the subtle nature of free speech, instead when Brazil does this pretend that this is something different simply because they so vehemently disagree with Musk and his politics. Of course most of those people also disagree with Putin's politics, but to them Musk is the "near enemy", which is more dangerous to them than the "far enemy". If one sees any fundamental psychological drive in an average American's positive reaction to this news other than pure tribal/religious desire to annihilate their political opponents, one has not yet put on those nice sunglasses from They Live. Don't get me wrong, of course there is the occasional actually principled rational person, but overall the vast majority of reactions to this fall along tribal lines, even here at the orange site, which maybe once was full of geeky libertarian types but has clearly for a long time now been overrun by a different sort of person.

itherseed 2y ago

Not my words by an accurate statement: "A Brazilian judge tells Elon that he has to block certain users of X. Elon says no. The judge says that he will then put X's legal representative in Brazil in jail. Elon closes the offices in Brazil. The judge says that he has to have a legal representative in Brazil, that is what the law says. Elon says "if I name another representative you will put him in jail". Then the judge orders X to be blocked in Brazil. And he threatens to fine those who try to use X in Brazil through VPNs. In other words, users who easily use X in Brazil to see memes become potential criminals when they did nothing illegal. It's crazy. It's an abuse of authority. Because let's suppose that Carlinho Da Souza calls for burning all the kids alive, the one who commits a crime (let's suppose) is Carlinho, and Justice should be focused on him, not on the company that provides its platform without knowing beforehand that Carlinho is an idiot, and even knowing it later from his posts. And you shouldn't demand that the company prevent Carlinho from exposing his stupidity, that would be like telling the cell phone company not to let me talk on the phone because I threatened to break someone's face. And then, since the company says no, it won't prevent me from talking on the phone, then it blocks the cell phone signal throughout the country, for everyone. Freedom of expression is being able to say what you want and take responsibility for the consequences. But the consequences are for the alleged offender, not for people who have nothing to do with it. To make another cheap analogy, if someone stabs a neighbor, you can't ban knives and force butchers to cut meat with their teeth."

silverliver 2y ago

Somebody needs to patiently sit down with this judge and explain to him that the jurisdiction of his court (and his understanding of technology) has limits. Good luck, Brazil.

virgulino 2y ago

Starlink will not block X-Twitter in Brazil: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41421531 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41421531