10 ms·

The Tesla brand has suffered enormously due to the actions of its owner.

epistasis 2y ago
Yes, Tesla's execution has been really terrible. There's some really good tech inside their cars, but the direction of which cars to make, when, and the investments in non-car tech, the over-promising of "Full Self Driving," etc. All huge detractors. There's also the CEO, who has a huge public profile, deciding to become extremely political, which smart CEOs usually avoid doing because it has little potential to help and lots of potential to hurt. Especially with Musk's particular choice of which politics he wants to push, which alienate not only customers but also the government political forces. Tesla has massively benefited from subsidies to EVs, but is alienating the political party that has enabled all of that. If Tesla had been run by a different CEO for the past, say, 3 years, nearly any CEO, I think it would be in a better position. I really like my Model 3, but I won't be buying it again, and the direction of the Cyber Truck is so repulsive to me that I'm really really against being associated with the brand at all.
- root_axis 2y ago
  > Tesla has massively benefited from subsidies to EVs, but is alienating the political party that has enabled all of that. Well, he's expecting some reciprocity from the next administration for all his help, and Trump has said openly that he will support EVs as a consequence of Elon's strong support.
  - mensetmanusman 2y ago
    The political party that ignored Tesla’s accomplishments because of union politics?
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - epistasis 2y ago
      The further subsidies were not "ignoring achievement" they were subsidies that were shifting to include union labor. The idea that it has anything to do with Tesla, as opposed to anything else, is a bit weird. If one or two Republicans like the idea of EV subsidies without union labor, their votes could have shifted everything. But of course, there was universal condemnation of these polices by all Republicans.
      - tim333 2y ago
        >The idea that it has anything to do with Tesla, as opposed to anything else, is a bit weird. At the time of Biden's electic car summit in 2021 to which Tesla was not invited, Telsa had 75% of the EV market in the US. The idea that US's EV policy didn't have anything to do with its largest EV company is perhaps surprising.
  - jcranmer 2y ago
    > a consequence of Elon's strong support. What strong support? I recall that Elon publicly announced he was going to do a massive contribution to Trump's campaign fund, and then he announced like two days later that he wasn't going to do it.
    - netsharc 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - jfengel 2y ago
        He's extremely constrained in what he can donate directly to the campaign. Direct donations are limited to something like $4000. These donations are closely monitored. If you want to spend millions you have to give it to a super PAC. The difference is that the super PAC cannot coordinate directly with the campaign. That part is not super closely monitored, and the fig leaf of separation is nanometers thick.
    - fastball 2y ago
      Musk never announced that.
    - yreg 2y ago
      > Elon publicly announced he was going to do a massive contribution to Trump's campaign fund I don't think he has publicly announced anything like that. Actually, he denied it. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/article/2024/jul/24/elon-musk-donald-trump-donations-denial-super-pac-america https://www.theguardian.com/technology/article/2024/jul/24/e...
      - dylan604 2y ago
        With the two parties involved in the will he/won't he, I wouldn't doubt either version of the story. It's beautiful
    - somethoughts 2y ago
      The fun part is, as far as I understand it, the EV tax credit as part of the Inflation Reduction Act, did eventually include Teslas - even though Elon wasn't invited to the initial photo-op announcement party thrown by the White House due to the lack of unionization at Tesla factories. On the flip side, support for the EV tax credit will probably be phased out if Trump wins according to recent articles I've read. So then it seems it's not necessarily business logic but more about personal ego, etc.
  - nikcub 2y ago
    Doubt either next administration will do better for Tesla than Biden's up to $7500 EV tax credit and 100% import duty on Chinese EVs
    - hedora 2y ago
      Biden really should have made the import duty contingent on the US manufacturers not abandoning / slow-walking their EV lineups: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a61935592/ford-cancels-three-row-electric-suv/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a61935592/ford-cancels-thr... At this point, it feels more like a ban on affordable mainstream EVs than an anti-price-dumping measure.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - cscurmudgeon 2y ago
    > Trump has said openly that he will support EVs Source? Recent news says otherwise. https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-says-he-would-consider-ending-7500-electric-vehicle-credit-2024-08-19/ https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-says-he-would-conside...
    - peutetre 2y ago
      Trump says he's for electric cars because "I have to be, you know, because Elon endorsed me very strongly, Elon. So I have no choice": https://www.thestreet.com/electric-vehicles/elon-musks-endorsement-inspired-trumps-sudden-flip-flop-on-evs https://www.thestreet.com/electric-vehicles/elon-musks-endor... What Trump is really saying is that he's for sale. Trump also told the oil industry he's for sale. He said they should give him $1 billion and that would be a "deal" because he would help them avoid taxation and regulation: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/05/09/trump-oil-industry-campaign-money/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/05/09/trump-oil... Everything is transactional with Trump. He's only interested if it benefits him personally. He only cares about himself.
      - cscurmudgeon 2y ago
        > Joe Biden Rewards Donors With Admin Positions in Broken Promise to Voters https://www.newsweek.com/joe-biden-rewards-donors-admin-positions-broken-promise-voters-1803442 https://www.newsweek.com/joe-biden-rewards-donors-admin-posi... https://www.barrons.com/articles/trump-harris-election-campaign-billionaires-megadonors-6cf28b0c https://www.barrons.com/articles/trump-harris-election-campa... I feel that what Trump says out loud publicly others say behind the cameras away from mics with a wink and a nudge. https://www.cnbc.com/2024/07/26/two-billionaire-harris-donors-hope-she-will-fire-ftc-chair-lina-khan.html https://www.cnbc.com/2024/07/26/two-billionaire-harris-donor...
        cheikhcheikh 2y ago
        You asked for a source and were given one, then went on to talk about joe Biden for some reason, may I ask why?
  - moogly 2y ago
    > Trump has said His word is worth nothing.
- okr 2y ago
  Was it not the mission of Tesla to make electrical cars an alternative to cars running on petrol? To me this was achieved. Bmw or Tesla, i do not care about that too much. But we have an alternative. Great! And politics, well, only for people who do not agree with him it is an issue. But that's normal in politics, is it not?
  - Swizec 2y ago
    > And politics, well, only for people who do not agree with him it is an issue. But that's normal in politics, is it not? 50% is a big chunk of your target market to piss off
  - marcosdumay 2y ago
    > But that's normal in politics, is it not? Excluding a part of the population for no practical reason at all is bad business. But when the politics becomes extremist, that share becomes huge, and it becomes disastrous business. Some people are motivated enough to lose business for their principles. But the guy's principles is "big business is right"... I'm not sure what he wants to achieve.
    - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
      > Excluding a part of the population for no practical reason at all is bad business. But when the politics becomes extremist, that share becomes huge, and it becomes disastrous business. Companies do this all the time though. The trade off is, of course, that you get more support from customers the other side. > But the guy's principles is "big business is right"... I'm not sure what he wants to achieve. This is not an accurate representation. For example, the Twitter acquisition followed a period of Twitter (and most other social media) banning a lot of conservative accounts for publishing truthful reporting (New York Post) or actual satire with the disfavored political leaning (Babylon Bee), at which point Musk did a Twitter poll asking the entire site if Twitter adheres to the principle of free speech: https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1507259709224632344 https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1507259709224632344 70% said it didn't, so he bought it. This upset a lot of people (not least the people who liked the preexisting system that tended to ban their political opponents) and they've been characterizing everything he does in a negative light since. So then you'll get a lot of stories about a left-leaning account being suspended with the implication that he's just doing it the other way now, with no investigation into whether the suspension was deserved, or just characterizing the unavoidable false positives and false negatives in moderation as a willful bias etc. That isn't to say he's a saint, but the impression you'd get from reading a lot of this coverage is that he's the devil.
- mrbungie 2y ago
  This is just an opinion but Musk, out of some level of autism and/or narcissism, must think those things just don't apply to him. I say that because sometimes the way he acts appears as he thinks he is so smart that he can circumvent typical social/economical/politica etiquette and even evade consequences. Well, it has actually worked for him. The world makes a lot of exceptions about etiquette for him.
  - taurath 2y ago
    The world also likes to chew up people they once lionized who end up being deeply flawed. He had business making technology, but he has no business being in politics. He is literally the richest person on the planet, and the way that works is you no longer have any problems that anyone can relate to, and you can afford to not listen to literally anything that makes you uncomfortable. He's gone down a very dark path through his choices - choices that serve him and his ego above all. No wonder the only person he has anything in common with anymore is Donald Trump.
- blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
  > There's also the CEO, who has a huge public profile, deciding to become extremely political, which smart CEOs usually avoid doing because it has little potential to help and lots of potential to hurt. I don’t know about this. Virtually all CEOs of tech companies bent over backwards to support BLM and many donated tens of millions to those BLM affiliated organizations - many of whom turned out to be grifters. But if anyone takes a public stance supporting an opposing political ideology, suddenly it is a huge controversy for CEOs to be political? Or take something that liberal societies support like free speech - when Musk advocates for a minimalist approach to moderation it suddenly becomes “fascist”? To me the hyperbolic outrage in response to Musk just seems like a dishonest power struggle, where people on the political left are bent on only allowing their voice and influence in society.
  - petre 2y ago
    I think people are generally fed up with Musk's tweets, his Tesla marketing and his general lack of empathy. The public might have tolerated him until he got involved in politics and has shown support for Trump.
  - jjav 2y ago
    > when Musk advocates for a minimalist approach to moderation it suddenly becomes “fascist” There has been nothing minimalist in Musk's moderation, he's been banning people on twitter all along. His whole free speech thing turned out to apply only to speech he likes and ban the rest.
- foobazgt 2y ago
  I don't really get this. "Love the art, not the artist" is pretty much an essentialism for participating in modern human society. Try taking a moment to trace through everything you consume and see how much of it was originated by very flawed human beings - some monstrously so. This extends in every direction, even all the way out to things like massive scientific discoveries. Nothing's immune, because we're all human. I'm in the process of buying my 3rd Tesla, because I still don't think there's anything better out there (based on my personal needs). I'm not making any political or moral statements. I'm just buying an excellent vehicle.
  - tailrecursion 2y ago
    This appears to be downvoted, but why? I'd like to see the counterargument that we need to put each executive, author, director, or artist through a purity test before we can appreciate or purchase their work. How about listing a few pure American car CEOs. Consumers are free to make choices based on anything they want: but whining in public about how some tweets affect your opinion on a car is not the same thing as privately making choices. This subject was opened for discussion and it remains open.
    - doodaddy 2y ago
      Why? Because art and business aren’t the same. “Love the capital, not the capitalist” doesn’t work because unlike artists, capital influences elections. It influences policy and thereby impacts real people’s lives in a real way. Also unlike artists, the head of a company oversees hundreds or thousands of people. Their whims and actions likewise have direct impact on people’s lives.
    - The_Colonel 2y ago
      People don't want to do background checks on companies. But you don't have to do that for Tesla, Musk tries hard to shove his persona in your face.
  - kanbara 2y ago
    i looked at tesla but decided against it after elon’s antics. bought a bmw i4 and wow it feels and drives like a premium vehicle. gets out of the way and does things well. drove my fam’s tesla model 3 (2024) and it felt super cheap and the ui and cameras were pretty bad
- chii 2y ago
  > deciding to become extremely political personally, my purchase decisions do not include the personality or celebrity of the company (CEO or otherwise). There's objective measures you compare against another product (like price, looks, performance, quality etc), and you choose the best fit.
  - mullingitover 2y ago
    > personally, my purchase decisions do not include the personality or celebrity of the company (CEO or otherwise). This is a normal hacker news commenter position, but not a normal consumer position. One of the first things you learn in a freshman year marketing course is the fact that consumers in general make spending decisions on feeling, not on raw data. It's the reason commercials you see on television are all about vibes, and not remotely about the raw performance numbers. See also: Apple never wastes its time droning on about the specs of their devices in their commercials. This is why the public persona of Tesla's CEO has a material impact on the company's sales, and why it's hurting the company. I'd argue that Musk has outright disdain for his customers and considers them 'woke,' and is enthusiastically running the company into the ground out of pure spite.
  - The_Colonel 2y ago
    It's not really different from the looks you mention. Looks is not an objective measure. You buy a nice looking car because its look evokes positive feelings in you. But other things can evoke positive feelings by association. The brand itself, marketing campaign, corporate image. For many, these (usually carefully cultivated) associations are overshadowed by a loud, controversial, partisan CEO who doesn't evoke positive feelings. It used to be that Tesla cars evoked for me feelings of progress, sort of futurism (although I never really digged its rather bland design), eco-friendliness. Nowadays I see a Tesla and feel a low-key disgust.
minkles 2y ago
Yeah as a former Model S owner I don’t want it be associated with the brand or support it any more. Also it was a crap car.
- ilrwbwrkhv 2y ago
  I had a first version of Model S and I loved it. Since then every model made has been rushed out and it shows. I moved to the Porsche electric as my next electric.
- leptons 2y ago
  I saw a Tesla with a giant bumper sticker on the back that read: "I bought this before we knew Elon was crazy"
arcbyte 2y ago
I hear people say this bit then I see those same people go and buy Teslas anyway. The real reason Tesla is suffering is because they've not delivered on innovation, quality, or price in a long time.
- leesec 2y ago
  >The real reason Tesla is suffering is because they've not delivered on innovation, quality, or price in a long time. Haha what. Price has dropped, quality increased, their self driving tech recently had a step change in functionality. I don't really think Tesla is suffering but I think most of these narratives are in peoples heads and don't reflect reality.
  - goodluckchuck 2y ago
    And a technical sense yes but the only new model they’ve released recently is the cyber truck. Otherwise their sedans and crossovers outwardly appear to be basically the same thing they were selling in 2012. Meanwhile, BMW has a fleet of eight different electric vehicles, with more modern styling, leather, and just the ability to differentiate. Of course, Tesla is well into the black on their models whereas I doubt the BMW will get out of the red anytime soon.
    - porphyra 2y ago
      The new Model 3 is new and has lots of interior features not found in competitors' cars of the same price range (ventilated and heated rear seats, screen for rear occupants, ambient lighting, Autopilot as standard, etc).
      - amluto 2y ago
        It’s also missing features that everyone else has (handles for entry/exit, a dashboard instrument cluster, lots of interior storage, support for physical keys, AirPlay / Android Auto, a forward/reverse selector, etc).
    - 2y ago
louwrentius 2y ago
Second-hand Tesla Model 3s are ready affordable in NL, but I’ll be damned if I’m going to buy a Tesla because of all the stink attached to, well, everything. This pains me because the Model 3/S is a decent sedan and one of - if not the most - efficient cars on the market.
leesec 2y ago
Maybe. Still going to have the best selling car in the world this year.
- dannyr 2y ago
  I thought Chinese electric car are selling way more than Tesla around the world.
  - leesec 2y ago
    Nope
    - segfaltnh 2y ago
      Do you have some source here to provide for the curious?
- makeitdouble 2y ago
  BYD is already way ahead. https://evmarketsreports.com/byd-and-tesla-lead-the-global-ev-market-as-sales-surge-in-2024/ https://evmarketsreports.com/byd-and-tesla-lead-the-global-e... (except if you really were focusing on single model sales, but I'm not sure it's relevant)
  - leesec 2y ago
    Lol, misinterprets what I said then says its not relevant
  - giobox 2y ago
    These statistics include plug-in hybrid gas cars (PHEV), of which BYD sell a lot, and Tesla do not make at all. > "The company’s (BYD) success is driven by a dual strategy of producing both fully electric vehicles (BEVs) and plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs)..."
    - makeitdouble 2y ago
o11c 2y ago
I'm not convinced that's actually the dominant factor. The market share for EVs is still small enough that there's no real shortage of buyers. But it turns out that having a hundred years of domain experience building cars actually matters for something. Tesla cars have had a lot of avoidable failures on technical merits.
- givemeethekeys 2y ago
  As far as ICE vehicles go, most mechanics will advise you to lease a BMW / Audi over buying one. After 60k miles, the maintenance costs and electrical gremlins are noticeably frequent. German EV's are probably better built - fewer electrical issues over a longer duration (I hope), and fewer moving parts to replace. I think this is a product differentiation / segmentation problem. People who wanted the current Tesla offering are being outnumbered by people who want buttons / information displayed front and center.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - ghaff 2y ago
    I've never owned one but the folk wisdom I've always heard is to have a good foreign car indie mechanic (or do a lot of your your own work I guess) or just plan on keeping a BMW/Audi/etc. to the end of the warranty period because dealer bills add up fast afterwards.
  - coryfklein 2y ago
    Surely the dealers leasing those vehicles are factoring cost of maintenance into the lease, no?
    - Too 2y ago
      See it as an insurance. It's not likely something will break, if you are the unlucky one though, those spare parts aren't cheap. A dealer can distribute that risk over many more cars.
  - 2y ago
root_axis 2y ago
I think you're right, but I'm not so sure it's actually impacting sales to a large degree. For most people a 50k car is a huge investment that won't hinge on whether or not you agree with the CEO's politics.
- fatbird 2y ago
  There's wanting a Tesla and ignoring Musk, but there's also "should we consider a Tesla?" answered by "No, I don't trust him and anything he's associated with." We didn't look at Tesla when we bought our EV two years ago. There were other reasons than just Musk's personality, but it was a definitely a factor in ignoring the brand.
- bdcravens 2y ago
  Depends on how good the alternatives are. HMC, BMW, etc have some great options.
- jltsiren 2y ago
  I think it should be the opposite. If you buy a cheap thing and suddenly start feeling uncomfortable using it in public, you can just buy another cheap thing. With expensive things, you want to play it safe, because replacing it will be expensive if you start having second thoughts.
  - ein0p 2y ago
    99% of eligible buyers don’t care one way or another. As big as it may seem to you, the US neoliberal bubble is not really that large. That’s why Tesla sold 1.81M cars last year. It is a formidable number no matter how you look at it.
  - al_borland 2y ago
    Step 1 is to stop buying things (or not) because you care how it will make you look to other people who don’t actually care. I don’t have a Tesla, but if someone is going to judge me based on the assumed political views of the CEO of the car brand I happen to drive… they need to get a life. Does the company make a good car? That’s the only thing that actually matters.
ThinkBeat 2y ago
I don't think this is much of an influence in the European market.
mensetmanusman 2y ago
This is true in some bubbles.
declan_roberts 2y ago
Yes that's what we're told, without evidence of any kind.
- bdcravens 2y ago
  People are using it as a buying criteria. (I cancelled a Model 3 order and went with a Kia EV6 instead) That said, confirmation bias is a real thing. There are those who are convinced Bed Bath and Beyond went under because they stopped selling My Pillow.
- tene80i 2y ago
  What kind of evidence do you want? I’m a car buyer and I’ve gone from seeing Tesla as a decent brand to one I will not consider at all, because I don’t want to associate myself with Musk’s behaviour. It’s not a conspiracy - some people just don’t like him, and there are good alternatives.
- blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
  There are lots of angry people who are trying to summon a ‘reality’ that they want to see, where their political opponent has suffered for sharing their political views. It’s why this story got upvoted on Hacker News at all, despite it being obviously misleading and easy to disprove. HN users are critical readers on many topics, so to me it appears that they stop using those critical thinking skills when they have an emotional investment in a topic. In other words, this is just like any other political topic in America.
- segfaltnh 2y ago
  Agree that people may want this to be a bigger factor than it is, or no factor at all, depending on their personal feelings on Musk and his politics. I would say its hard to argue it is likely some factor in the middle. I'd love to see it studied. I'll anecdotally add that I've always found Teslas design language pretty ugly, but did pine after the status of owning one briefly. Now I would never buy one for the association with Musk. So there you have it, scientifically there are at least 3 of us, and at most 8 billion of us. Further study is needed.
ugh123 2y ago
Which actions specifically?
pyinstallwoes 2y ago
Please show the evidence of how it has suffered
- Retric 2y ago
  Multiple in thread mentions they cancelled their order due in whole or part to him, they are not alone. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41334247 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41334247 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41334102 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41334102 etc Personally, I decided to not to buy a Tesla because of how he over hyped self driving and then tried to weasel out by calling the system ‘full self driving’ when it’s clearly not. It doesn’t mean the cars are actually crap, but the company just came off as hella sketchy. Like how they didn’t care about panel gaps or similar issues because people were buying cars sight unseen, just gives this cheap vibe without actually hitting that price point. It’s not that uncommon for people to quietly boycott companies. My mother refuses to get Starlink because of Musk.
  - metabagel 2y ago
    I've boycotted AT&T for over 25 years, after AT&T charged me for the phone calls made after I had reported my phone stolen. I was young and stupid, so I paid, but I never gave them my business again. In regard to Musk, I'll avoid anything he is related to. He doesn't treat others with respect, but he demands it for himself. He's egotistical, highly emotional, and impulsive. He's successful only because he inherited wealth and was able to parlay that into greater wealth.
    - inemesitaffia 2y ago
      I'd like to see these billions
- peutetre 2y ago
  Reputational damage: https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2024/08/10/musk-tesla-trump-fans/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2024/08/10/musk-te... https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2024-08-22/tesla-reputation-falling-as-elon-musk-alienates-ev-buyers/104229840 https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2024-08-22/tesla-reputat... Lost sales: https://electrek.co/2024/08/06/tesla-loses-corporate-sales-over-elon-musk-tesla-mission/ https://electrek.co/2024/08/06/tesla-loses-corporate-sales-o... Declining sales: https://electrek.co/2024/08/13/tesla-doing-well-china-but-sales-slumping-europe/ https://electrek.co/2024/08/13/tesla-doing-well-china-but-sa... https://electrek.co/2024/07/05/tesla-model-s-x-sales-crashing-hiding-it/ https://electrek.co/2024/07/05/tesla-model-s-x-sales-crashin... Deliveries are down: https://insideevs.com/news/725736/tesla-production-deliveries-graphed-2024q2/ https://insideevs.com/news/725736/tesla-production-deliverie... https://www.bbc.com/news/business-68715906 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-68715906 Losing market share: https://insideevs.com/news/727744/tesla-market-share-2024-q2/ https://insideevs.com/news/727744/tesla-market-share-2024-q2... https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/09/business/tesla-electric-vehicles-market-share.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/09/business/tesla-electric-v... https://www.theregister.com/2024/07/18/tesla_sales_market_share_dip/ https://www.theregister.com/2024/07/18/tesla_sales_market_sh...
primitivesuave 2y ago
Meanwhile the actions of BMW's founder (Herbert Quandt) have been largely forgotten.
- LeoPanthera 2y ago
  Do you feel that a person who died in 1982 has any influence over the company today?
  - primitivesuave 2y ago
    The only reason the company exists today is because of the crimes of the Quandt family.
    - sangnoir 2y ago
      Would you be surprised if some people swear off buying BMWs for that reason?
      - primitivesuave 2y ago
        There's no practical way to live in the modern world without indirectly benefiting from forced labor. Some of the cobalt required for EV batteries is mined by forced labor in the Congo, and there was a recent controversy around BMW and VW importing vehicles to the USA with parts made from forced labor of Uyghur prisoners in China. Even in the US, virtually all license plates are created by prisoners who earn 8-16 cents an hour. My original point was to the "Elon schadenfreude" crowd cheering for BMW and swearing off Tesla because they don't agree with the founder's actions. Seems like selective outrage to me.
      - Too 2y ago
        This can be seen in data. Compare the car sales of Netherlands vs Denmark, two countries next to each other with similar living conditions, one of them occupied during the war, the other not. Guess which one of them don't have any German cars in the top sales list. Even today. Though I don't believe todays generation would hold a grudge, now it's likely more brand loyalty momentum that sticks.
al_borland 2y ago
I think it has more to do with Tesla being the modern EV pioneer. They were the only game it town for a while, and had the best charging network. However, there have been a lot of stories about build quality issues for years. As the established automaker move into the market and charging is standardized, it would stand to reason that Tesla would suffer, as people see they can get higher build quality from experienced brands. The cool-factor of Tesla also starts to wear off when they are everywhere. Last time I was in a place I needed to Uber a lot, 4 of the 5 riders were in Teslas.
- andsoitis 2y ago
  when they are everywhere. Last time I was in a place I needed to Uber a lot, 4 of the 5 riders were in Teslas. So very popular!
cameldrv 2y ago
It's incredible what's happened in the past year. I know a lot of people that own Teslas. Almost all of them have said they won't buy another one, entirely due to garbage Elon posts on Twitter. A number of them have said they are considering selling their Teslas. When you run a company whose core customer base is tree huggers, it takes a special kind of crazy to say the kind of stuff he has. Of course he can think what he wants, but no one is forcing him to retweet every spicy meme he comes across.
ilrwbwrkhv 2y ago
I was a really long term shareholder in Tesla. Like back when the Oatmeal made that famous Tesla comic strip. When he started calling people pedophiles on the internet and when I saw the board whose fiduciary duty is to keep the CEO in check do nothing, I exited my entire position. It is an absolute failure of the board that no one questions his dumb decisions of pandering to the right to save some taxes, when the main customers are on the left.
- coryrc 2y ago
  TSLA price July 2018: $19.88 TSLA price today: $232.22 bad move
  - ilrwbwrkhv 2y ago
    Guess where I put my exit cash? NVDA. There is always a better play.
    - Paradigma11 2y ago
      I bought winning lottery tickets. Hard to beat.
deleted 2y ago
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kbos87 2y ago
Add me to the list. There are enough great choices with more becoming available each month that there’s no reason to paint his fence. The minute I can take possession of an R2 and sell my model Y I’m done with Tesla forever. It’s also a real shame because it’s the best car I’ve ever owned - but that in no way outweighs my desire to not be a rolling advertisement for Elon. What I find funny is that Teslas high profile investors repeatedly and completely dismiss this effect as being insignificant, but anecdotally I do think it’s a large portion of Tesla’s owners. It’s also not like he has traded one customer base for another. The conservatives he’s trying to cozy up to seem just as anti-EV as ever.
fhdsgbbcaA 2y ago
I was firmly against ever buying a Tesla because of Elon’s Twitter escapades. Then they dropped the price, dramatically, and I found myself on the fence. Then Elon endorsed Trump and promised to spend the money I’d give him for the Tesla on electing Trump (albeit indirectly). So, I do not have a Tesla, nor will I ever be tempted again, not even if they are selling for $1.
EasyMark 2y ago
If I’m a CEO I’m not going to be trying to impress the same crowd that hates the very thing that my most valuable company is built on. It’s basically unhinged and I think I’d probably step down if ever came down from my twitter high long enough to take a look around at the burning room. I am by no means a “make money at all costs” person but this had become a huge violation of the fiduciary duty of the CEO
orwin 2y ago
Honestly, I dislike Musk since the 'submarine to save kids' story, but in Europe, at least outside big cities, Tesla owners aren't associated with Musk, so his politics or likeability aren't a factor on purchase choices. Musk himself wasn't really a factor for 95% of people before anyway, I think only americanized Europeans cared about him. I just think Tesla can't find footing in the real low-end EV market because of BYD + Renault and associates (that market is small atm so it isn't an issue), never got in the high-end EV market so it has to compete with historic automaker in a market they have a lot of experience in.
- rsynnott 2y ago
  > I think only americanized Europeans cared about him. I mean, it depends where you live, but Naughty Old Mr Car has stuck his oar in on, at least, Irish, British and French politics, and has also said many extremely stupid things about Ukraine. He’s getting harder to ignore in Europe.

Yes, Tesla's execution has been really terrible. There's some really good tech inside their cars, but the direction of which cars to make, when, and the investments in non-car tech, the over-promising of "Full Self Driving," etc. All huge detractors. There's also the CEO, who has a huge public profile, deciding to become extremely political, which smart CEOs usually avoid doing because it has little potential to help and lots of potential to hurt. Especially with Musk's particular choice of which politics he wants to push, which alienate not only customers but also the government political forces. Tesla has massively benefited from subsidies to EVs, but is alienating the political party that has enabled all of that. If Tesla had been run by a different CEO for the past, say, 3 years, nearly any CEO, I think it would be in a better position. I really like my Model 3, but I won't be buying it again, and the direction of the Cyber Truck is so repulsive to me that I'm really really against being associated with the brand at all.

root_axis 2y ago
> Tesla has massively benefited from subsidies to EVs, but is alienating the political party that has enabled all of that. Well, he's expecting some reciprocity from the next administration for all his help, and Trump has said openly that he will support EVs as a consequence of Elon's strong support.
- mensetmanusman 2y ago
  The political party that ignored Tesla’s accomplishments because of union politics?
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - epistasis 2y ago
    The further subsidies were not "ignoring achievement" they were subsidies that were shifting to include union labor. The idea that it has anything to do with Tesla, as opposed to anything else, is a bit weird. If one or two Republicans like the idea of EV subsidies without union labor, their votes could have shifted everything. But of course, there was universal condemnation of these polices by all Republicans.
    - tim333 2y ago
      >The idea that it has anything to do with Tesla, as opposed to anything else, is a bit weird. At the time of Biden's electic car summit in 2021 to which Tesla was not invited, Telsa had 75% of the EV market in the US. The idea that US's EV policy didn't have anything to do with its largest EV company is perhaps surprising.
- jcranmer 2y ago
  > a consequence of Elon's strong support. What strong support? I recall that Elon publicly announced he was going to do a massive contribution to Trump's campaign fund, and then he announced like two days later that he wasn't going to do it.
  - netsharc 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - jfengel 2y ago
      He's extremely constrained in what he can donate directly to the campaign. Direct donations are limited to something like $4000. These donations are closely monitored. If you want to spend millions you have to give it to a super PAC. The difference is that the super PAC cannot coordinate directly with the campaign. That part is not super closely monitored, and the fig leaf of separation is nanometers thick.
  - fastball 2y ago
    Musk never announced that.
  - yreg 2y ago
    > Elon publicly announced he was going to do a massive contribution to Trump's campaign fund I don't think he has publicly announced anything like that. Actually, he denied it. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/article/2024/jul/24/elon-musk-donald-trump-donations-denial-super-pac-america https://www.theguardian.com/technology/article/2024/jul/24/e...
    - dylan604 2y ago
      With the two parties involved in the will he/won't he, I wouldn't doubt either version of the story. It's beautiful
  - somethoughts 2y ago
    The fun part is, as far as I understand it, the EV tax credit as part of the Inflation Reduction Act, did eventually include Teslas - even though Elon wasn't invited to the initial photo-op announcement party thrown by the White House due to the lack of unionization at Tesla factories. On the flip side, support for the EV tax credit will probably be phased out if Trump wins according to recent articles I've read. So then it seems it's not necessarily business logic but more about personal ego, etc.
- nikcub 2y ago
  Doubt either next administration will do better for Tesla than Biden's up to $7500 EV tax credit and 100% import duty on Chinese EVs
  - hedora 2y ago
    Biden really should have made the import duty contingent on the US manufacturers not abandoning / slow-walking their EV lineups: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a61935592/ford-cancels-three-row-electric-suv/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a61935592/ford-cancels-thr... At this point, it feels more like a ban on affordable mainstream EVs than an anti-price-dumping measure.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- cscurmudgeon 2y ago
  > Trump has said openly that he will support EVs Source? Recent news says otherwise. https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-says-he-would-consider-ending-7500-electric-vehicle-credit-2024-08-19/ https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-says-he-would-conside...
  - peutetre 2y ago
    Trump says he's for electric cars because "I have to be, you know, because Elon endorsed me very strongly, Elon. So I have no choice": https://www.thestreet.com/electric-vehicles/elon-musks-endorsement-inspired-trumps-sudden-flip-flop-on-evs https://www.thestreet.com/electric-vehicles/elon-musks-endor... What Trump is really saying is that he's for sale. Trump also told the oil industry he's for sale. He said they should give him $1 billion and that would be a "deal" because he would help them avoid taxation and regulation: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/05/09/trump-oil-industry-campaign-money/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/05/09/trump-oil... Everything is transactional with Trump. He's only interested if it benefits him personally. He only cares about himself.
    - cscurmudgeon 2y ago
      > Joe Biden Rewards Donors With Admin Positions in Broken Promise to Voters https://www.newsweek.com/joe-biden-rewards-donors-admin-positions-broken-promise-voters-1803442 https://www.newsweek.com/joe-biden-rewards-donors-admin-posi... https://www.barrons.com/articles/trump-harris-election-campaign-billionaires-megadonors-6cf28b0c https://www.barrons.com/articles/trump-harris-election-campa... I feel that what Trump says out loud publicly others say behind the cameras away from mics with a wink and a nudge. https://www.cnbc.com/2024/07/26/two-billionaire-harris-donors-hope-she-will-fire-ftc-chair-lina-khan.html https://www.cnbc.com/2024/07/26/two-billionaire-harris-donor...
      - cheikhcheikh 2y ago
        You asked for a source and were given one, then went on to talk about joe Biden for some reason, may I ask why?
- moogly 2y ago
  > Trump has said His word is worth nothing.
okr 2y ago
Was it not the mission of Tesla to make electrical cars an alternative to cars running on petrol? To me this was achieved. Bmw or Tesla, i do not care about that too much. But we have an alternative. Great! And politics, well, only for people who do not agree with him it is an issue. But that's normal in politics, is it not?
- Swizec 2y ago
  > And politics, well, only for people who do not agree with him it is an issue. But that's normal in politics, is it not? 50% is a big chunk of your target market to piss off
- marcosdumay 2y ago
  > But that's normal in politics, is it not? Excluding a part of the population for no practical reason at all is bad business. But when the politics becomes extremist, that share becomes huge, and it becomes disastrous business. Some people are motivated enough to lose business for their principles. But the guy's principles is "big business is right"... I'm not sure what he wants to achieve.
  - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
    > Excluding a part of the population for no practical reason at all is bad business. But when the politics becomes extremist, that share becomes huge, and it becomes disastrous business. Companies do this all the time though. The trade off is, of course, that you get more support from customers the other side. > But the guy's principles is "big business is right"... I'm not sure what he wants to achieve. This is not an accurate representation. For example, the Twitter acquisition followed a period of Twitter (and most other social media) banning a lot of conservative accounts for publishing truthful reporting (New York Post) or actual satire with the disfavored political leaning (Babylon Bee), at which point Musk did a Twitter poll asking the entire site if Twitter adheres to the principle of free speech: https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1507259709224632344 https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1507259709224632344 70% said it didn't, so he bought it. This upset a lot of people (not least the people who liked the preexisting system that tended to ban their political opponents) and they've been characterizing everything he does in a negative light since. So then you'll get a lot of stories about a left-leaning account being suspended with the implication that he's just doing it the other way now, with no investigation into whether the suspension was deserved, or just characterizing the unavoidable false positives and false negatives in moderation as a willful bias etc. That isn't to say he's a saint, but the impression you'd get from reading a lot of this coverage is that he's the devil.
mrbungie 2y ago
This is just an opinion but Musk, out of some level of autism and/or narcissism, must think those things just don't apply to him. I say that because sometimes the way he acts appears as he thinks he is so smart that he can circumvent typical social/economical/politica etiquette and even evade consequences. Well, it has actually worked for him. The world makes a lot of exceptions about etiquette for him.
- taurath 2y ago
  The world also likes to chew up people they once lionized who end up being deeply flawed. He had business making technology, but he has no business being in politics. He is literally the richest person on the planet, and the way that works is you no longer have any problems that anyone can relate to, and you can afford to not listen to literally anything that makes you uncomfortable. He's gone down a very dark path through his choices - choices that serve him and his ego above all. No wonder the only person he has anything in common with anymore is Donald Trump.
blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
> There's also the CEO, who has a huge public profile, deciding to become extremely political, which smart CEOs usually avoid doing because it has little potential to help and lots of potential to hurt. I don’t know about this. Virtually all CEOs of tech companies bent over backwards to support BLM and many donated tens of millions to those BLM affiliated organizations - many of whom turned out to be grifters. But if anyone takes a public stance supporting an opposing political ideology, suddenly it is a huge controversy for CEOs to be political? Or take something that liberal societies support like free speech - when Musk advocates for a minimalist approach to moderation it suddenly becomes “fascist”? To me the hyperbolic outrage in response to Musk just seems like a dishonest power struggle, where people on the political left are bent on only allowing their voice and influence in society.
- petre 2y ago
  I think people are generally fed up with Musk's tweets, his Tesla marketing and his general lack of empathy. The public might have tolerated him until he got involved in politics and has shown support for Trump.
- jjav 2y ago
  > when Musk advocates for a minimalist approach to moderation it suddenly becomes “fascist” There has been nothing minimalist in Musk's moderation, he's been banning people on twitter all along. His whole free speech thing turned out to apply only to speech he likes and ban the rest.
foobazgt 2y ago
I don't really get this. "Love the art, not the artist" is pretty much an essentialism for participating in modern human society. Try taking a moment to trace through everything you consume and see how much of it was originated by very flawed human beings - some monstrously so. This extends in every direction, even all the way out to things like massive scientific discoveries. Nothing's immune, because we're all human. I'm in the process of buying my 3rd Tesla, because I still don't think there's anything better out there (based on my personal needs). I'm not making any political or moral statements. I'm just buying an excellent vehicle.
- tailrecursion 2y ago
  This appears to be downvoted, but why? I'd like to see the counterargument that we need to put each executive, author, director, or artist through a purity test before we can appreciate or purchase their work. How about listing a few pure American car CEOs. Consumers are free to make choices based on anything they want: but whining in public about how some tweets affect your opinion on a car is not the same thing as privately making choices. This subject was opened for discussion and it remains open.
  - doodaddy 2y ago
    Why? Because art and business aren’t the same. “Love the capital, not the capitalist” doesn’t work because unlike artists, capital influences elections. It influences policy and thereby impacts real people’s lives in a real way. Also unlike artists, the head of a company oversees hundreds or thousands of people. Their whims and actions likewise have direct impact on people’s lives.
  - The_Colonel 2y ago
    People don't want to do background checks on companies. But you don't have to do that for Tesla, Musk tries hard to shove his persona in your face.
- kanbara 2y ago
  i looked at tesla but decided against it after elon’s antics. bought a bmw i4 and wow it feels and drives like a premium vehicle. gets out of the way and does things well. drove my fam’s tesla model 3 (2024) and it felt super cheap and the ui and cameras were pretty bad
chii 2y ago
> deciding to become extremely political personally, my purchase decisions do not include the personality or celebrity of the company (CEO or otherwise). There's objective measures you compare against another product (like price, looks, performance, quality etc), and you choose the best fit.
- mullingitover 2y ago
  > personally, my purchase decisions do not include the personality or celebrity of the company (CEO or otherwise). This is a normal hacker news commenter position, but not a normal consumer position. One of the first things you learn in a freshman year marketing course is the fact that consumers in general make spending decisions on feeling, not on raw data. It's the reason commercials you see on television are all about vibes, and not remotely about the raw performance numbers. See also: Apple never wastes its time droning on about the specs of their devices in their commercials. This is why the public persona of Tesla's CEO has a material impact on the company's sales, and why it's hurting the company. I'd argue that Musk has outright disdain for his customers and considers them 'woke,' and is enthusiastically running the company into the ground out of pure spite.
- The_Colonel 2y ago
  It's not really different from the looks you mention. Looks is not an objective measure. You buy a nice looking car because its look evokes positive feelings in you. But other things can evoke positive feelings by association. The brand itself, marketing campaign, corporate image. For many, these (usually carefully cultivated) associations are overshadowed by a loud, controversial, partisan CEO who doesn't evoke positive feelings. It used to be that Tesla cars evoked for me feelings of progress, sort of futurism (although I never really digged its rather bland design), eco-friendliness. Nowadays I see a Tesla and feel a low-key disgust.

minkles 2y ago

Yeah as a former Model S owner I don’t want it be associated with the brand or support it any more. Also it was a crap car.

ilrwbwrkhv 2y ago
I had a first version of Model S and I loved it. Since then every model made has been rushed out and it shows. I moved to the Porsche electric as my next electric.
leptons 2y ago
I saw a Tesla with a giant bumper sticker on the back that read: "I bought this before we knew Elon was crazy"

arcbyte 2y ago

I hear people say this bit then I see those same people go and buy Teslas anyway. The real reason Tesla is suffering is because they've not delivered on innovation, quality, or price in a long time.

leesec 2y ago
>The real reason Tesla is suffering is because they've not delivered on innovation, quality, or price in a long time. Haha what. Price has dropped, quality increased, their self driving tech recently had a step change in functionality. I don't really think Tesla is suffering but I think most of these narratives are in peoples heads and don't reflect reality.
- goodluckchuck 2y ago
  And a technical sense yes but the only new model they’ve released recently is the cyber truck. Otherwise their sedans and crossovers outwardly appear to be basically the same thing they were selling in 2012. Meanwhile, BMW has a fleet of eight different electric vehicles, with more modern styling, leather, and just the ability to differentiate. Of course, Tesla is well into the black on their models whereas I doubt the BMW will get out of the red anytime soon.
  - porphyra 2y ago
    The new Model 3 is new and has lots of interior features not found in competitors' cars of the same price range (ventilated and heated rear seats, screen for rear occupants, ambient lighting, Autopilot as standard, etc).
    - amluto 2y ago
      It’s also missing features that everyone else has (handles for entry/exit, a dashboard instrument cluster, lots of interior storage, support for physical keys, AirPlay / Android Auto, a forward/reverse selector, etc).
  - 2y ago

louwrentius 2y ago

Second-hand Tesla Model 3s are ready affordable in NL, but I’ll be damned if I’m going to buy a Tesla because of all the stink attached to, well, everything. This pains me because the Model 3/S is a decent sedan and one of - if not the most - efficient cars on the market.

leesec 2y ago

Maybe. Still going to have the best selling car in the world this year.

dannyr 2y ago
I thought Chinese electric car are selling way more than Tesla around the world.
- leesec 2y ago
  Nope
  - segfaltnh 2y ago
    Do you have some source here to provide for the curious?
makeitdouble 2y ago
BYD is already way ahead. https://evmarketsreports.com/byd-and-tesla-lead-the-global-ev-market-as-sales-surge-in-2024/ https://evmarketsreports.com/byd-and-tesla-lead-the-global-e... (except if you really were focusing on single model sales, but I'm not sure it's relevant)
- leesec 2y ago
  Lol, misinterprets what I said then says its not relevant
- giobox 2y ago
  These statistics include plug-in hybrid gas cars (PHEV), of which BYD sell a lot, and Tesla do not make at all. > "The company’s (BYD) success is driven by a dual strategy of producing both fully electric vehicles (BEVs) and plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs)..."
  - makeitdouble 2y ago

o11c 2y ago

I'm not convinced that's actually the dominant factor. The market share for EVs is still small enough that there's no real shortage of buyers. But it turns out that having a hundred years of domain experience building cars actually matters for something. Tesla cars have had a lot of avoidable failures on technical merits.

givemeethekeys 2y ago
As far as ICE vehicles go, most mechanics will advise you to lease a BMW / Audi over buying one. After 60k miles, the maintenance costs and electrical gremlins are noticeably frequent. German EV's are probably better built - fewer electrical issues over a longer duration (I hope), and fewer moving parts to replace. I think this is a product differentiation / segmentation problem. People who wanted the current Tesla offering are being outnumbered by people who want buttons / information displayed front and center.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- ghaff 2y ago
  I've never owned one but the folk wisdom I've always heard is to have a good foreign car indie mechanic (or do a lot of your your own work I guess) or just plan on keeping a BMW/Audi/etc. to the end of the warranty period because dealer bills add up fast afterwards.
- coryfklein 2y ago
  Surely the dealers leasing those vehicles are factoring cost of maintenance into the lease, no?
  - Too 2y ago
    See it as an insurance. It's not likely something will break, if you are the unlucky one though, those spare parts aren't cheap. A dealer can distribute that risk over many more cars.
- 2y ago

root_axis 2y ago

I think you're right, but I'm not so sure it's actually impacting sales to a large degree. For most people a 50k car is a huge investment that won't hinge on whether or not you agree with the CEO's politics.

fatbird 2y ago
There's wanting a Tesla and ignoring Musk, but there's also "should we consider a Tesla?" answered by "No, I don't trust him and anything he's associated with." We didn't look at Tesla when we bought our EV two years ago. There were other reasons than just Musk's personality, but it was a definitely a factor in ignoring the brand.
bdcravens 2y ago
Depends on how good the alternatives are. HMC, BMW, etc have some great options.
jltsiren 2y ago
I think it should be the opposite. If you buy a cheap thing and suddenly start feeling uncomfortable using it in public, you can just buy another cheap thing. With expensive things, you want to play it safe, because replacing it will be expensive if you start having second thoughts.
- ein0p 2y ago
  99% of eligible buyers don’t care one way or another. As big as it may seem to you, the US neoliberal bubble is not really that large. That’s why Tesla sold 1.81M cars last year. It is a formidable number no matter how you look at it.
- al_borland 2y ago
  Step 1 is to stop buying things (or not) because you care how it will make you look to other people who don’t actually care. I don’t have a Tesla, but if someone is going to judge me based on the assumed political views of the CEO of the car brand I happen to drive… they need to get a life. Does the company make a good car? That’s the only thing that actually matters.

ThinkBeat 2y ago

I don't think this is much of an influence in the European market.

mensetmanusman 2y ago

This is true in some bubbles.

declan_roberts 2y ago

Yes that's what we're told, without evidence of any kind.

bdcravens 2y ago
People are using it as a buying criteria. (I cancelled a Model 3 order and went with a Kia EV6 instead) That said, confirmation bias is a real thing. There are those who are convinced Bed Bath and Beyond went under because they stopped selling My Pillow.
tene80i 2y ago
What kind of evidence do you want? I’m a car buyer and I’ve gone from seeing Tesla as a decent brand to one I will not consider at all, because I don’t want to associate myself with Musk’s behaviour. It’s not a conspiracy - some people just don’t like him, and there are good alternatives.
blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
There are lots of angry people who are trying to summon a ‘reality’ that they want to see, where their political opponent has suffered for sharing their political views. It’s why this story got upvoted on Hacker News at all, despite it being obviously misleading and easy to disprove. HN users are critical readers on many topics, so to me it appears that they stop using those critical thinking skills when they have an emotional investment in a topic. In other words, this is just like any other political topic in America.
segfaltnh 2y ago
Agree that people may want this to be a bigger factor than it is, or no factor at all, depending on their personal feelings on Musk and his politics. I would say its hard to argue it is likely some factor in the middle. I'd love to see it studied. I'll anecdotally add that I've always found Teslas design language pretty ugly, but did pine after the status of owning one briefly. Now I would never buy one for the association with Musk. So there you have it, scientifically there are at least 3 of us, and at most 8 billion of us. Further study is needed.

ugh123 2y ago

Which actions specifically?

pyinstallwoes 2y ago

Please show the evidence of how it has suffered

Retric 2y ago
Multiple in thread mentions they cancelled their order due in whole or part to him, they are not alone. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41334247 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41334247 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41334102 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41334102 etc Personally, I decided to not to buy a Tesla because of how he over hyped self driving and then tried to weasel out by calling the system ‘full self driving’ when it’s clearly not. It doesn’t mean the cars are actually crap, but the company just came off as hella sketchy. Like how they didn’t care about panel gaps or similar issues because people were buying cars sight unseen, just gives this cheap vibe without actually hitting that price point. It’s not that uncommon for people to quietly boycott companies. My mother refuses to get Starlink because of Musk.
- metabagel 2y ago
  I've boycotted AT&T for over 25 years, after AT&T charged me for the phone calls made after I had reported my phone stolen. I was young and stupid, so I paid, but I never gave them my business again. In regard to Musk, I'll avoid anything he is related to. He doesn't treat others with respect, but he demands it for himself. He's egotistical, highly emotional, and impulsive. He's successful only because he inherited wealth and was able to parlay that into greater wealth.
  - inemesitaffia 2y ago
    I'd like to see these billions
peutetre 2y ago
Reputational damage: https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2024/08/10/musk-tesla-trump-fans/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2024/08/10/musk-te... https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2024-08-22/tesla-reputation-falling-as-elon-musk-alienates-ev-buyers/104229840 https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2024-08-22/tesla-reputat... Lost sales: https://electrek.co/2024/08/06/tesla-loses-corporate-sales-over-elon-musk-tesla-mission/ https://electrek.co/2024/08/06/tesla-loses-corporate-sales-o... Declining sales: https://electrek.co/2024/08/13/tesla-doing-well-china-but-sales-slumping-europe/ https://electrek.co/2024/08/13/tesla-doing-well-china-but-sa... https://electrek.co/2024/07/05/tesla-model-s-x-sales-crashing-hiding-it/ https://electrek.co/2024/07/05/tesla-model-s-x-sales-crashin... Deliveries are down: https://insideevs.com/news/725736/tesla-production-deliveries-graphed-2024q2/ https://insideevs.com/news/725736/tesla-production-deliverie... https://www.bbc.com/news/business-68715906 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-68715906 Losing market share: https://insideevs.com/news/727744/tesla-market-share-2024-q2/ https://insideevs.com/news/727744/tesla-market-share-2024-q2... https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/09/business/tesla-electric-vehicles-market-share.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/09/business/tesla-electric-v... https://www.theregister.com/2024/07/18/tesla_sales_market_share_dip/ https://www.theregister.com/2024/07/18/tesla_sales_market_sh...

primitivesuave 2y ago

Meanwhile the actions of BMW's founder (Herbert Quandt) have been largely forgotten.

LeoPanthera 2y ago
Do you feel that a person who died in 1982 has any influence over the company today?
- primitivesuave 2y ago
  The only reason the company exists today is because of the crimes of the Quandt family.
  - sangnoir 2y ago
    Would you be surprised if some people swear off buying BMWs for that reason?
    - primitivesuave 2y ago
      There's no practical way to live in the modern world without indirectly benefiting from forced labor. Some of the cobalt required for EV batteries is mined by forced labor in the Congo, and there was a recent controversy around BMW and VW importing vehicles to the USA with parts made from forced labor of Uyghur prisoners in China. Even in the US, virtually all license plates are created by prisoners who earn 8-16 cents an hour. My original point was to the "Elon schadenfreude" crowd cheering for BMW and swearing off Tesla because they don't agree with the founder's actions. Seems like selective outrage to me.
    - Too 2y ago
      This can be seen in data. Compare the car sales of Netherlands vs Denmark, two countries next to each other with similar living conditions, one of them occupied during the war, the other not. Guess which one of them don't have any German cars in the top sales list. Even today. Though I don't believe todays generation would hold a grudge, now it's likely more brand loyalty momentum that sticks.

al_borland 2y ago

I think it has more to do with Tesla being the modern EV pioneer. They were the only game it town for a while, and had the best charging network. However, there have been a lot of stories about build quality issues for years. As the established automaker move into the market and charging is standardized, it would stand to reason that Tesla would suffer, as people see they can get higher build quality from experienced brands. The cool-factor of Tesla also starts to wear off when they are everywhere. Last time I was in a place I needed to Uber a lot, 4 of the 5 riders were in Teslas.

andsoitis 2y ago
when they are everywhere. Last time I was in a place I needed to Uber a lot, 4 of the 5 riders were in Teslas. So very popular!

cameldrv 2y ago

It's incredible what's happened in the past year. I know a lot of people that own Teslas. Almost all of them have said they won't buy another one, entirely due to garbage Elon posts on Twitter. A number of them have said they are considering selling their Teslas. When you run a company whose core customer base is tree huggers, it takes a special kind of crazy to say the kind of stuff he has. Of course he can think what he wants, but no one is forcing him to retweet every spicy meme he comes across.

ilrwbwrkhv 2y ago

I was a really long term shareholder in Tesla. Like back when the Oatmeal made that famous Tesla comic strip. When he started calling people pedophiles on the internet and when I saw the board whose fiduciary duty is to keep the CEO in check do nothing, I exited my entire position. It is an absolute failure of the board that no one questions his dumb decisions of pandering to the right to save some taxes, when the main customers are on the left.

coryrc 2y ago
TSLA price July 2018: $19.88 TSLA price today: $232.22 bad move
- ilrwbwrkhv 2y ago
  Guess where I put my exit cash? NVDA. There is always a better play.
  - Paradigma11 2y ago
    I bought winning lottery tickets. Hard to beat.

deleted 2y ago

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kbos87 2y ago

Add me to the list. There are enough great choices with more becoming available each month that there’s no reason to paint his fence. The minute I can take possession of an R2 and sell my model Y I’m done with Tesla forever. It’s also a real shame because it’s the best car I’ve ever owned - but that in no way outweighs my desire to not be a rolling advertisement for Elon. What I find funny is that Teslas high profile investors repeatedly and completely dismiss this effect as being insignificant, but anecdotally I do think it’s a large portion of Tesla’s owners. It’s also not like he has traded one customer base for another. The conservatives he’s trying to cozy up to seem just as anti-EV as ever.

fhdsgbbcaA 2y ago

I was firmly against ever buying a Tesla because of Elon’s Twitter escapades. Then they dropped the price, dramatically, and I found myself on the fence. Then Elon endorsed Trump and promised to spend the money I’d give him for the Tesla on electing Trump (albeit indirectly). So, I do not have a Tesla, nor will I ever be tempted again, not even if they are selling for $1.

EasyMark 2y ago

If I’m a CEO I’m not going to be trying to impress the same crowd that hates the very thing that my most valuable company is built on. It’s basically unhinged and I think I’d probably step down if ever came down from my twitter high long enough to take a look around at the burning room. I am by no means a “make money at all costs” person but this had become a huge violation of the fiduciary duty of the CEO

orwin 2y ago

Honestly, I dislike Musk since the 'submarine to save kids' story, but in Europe, at least outside big cities, Tesla owners aren't associated with Musk, so his politics or likeability aren't a factor on purchase choices. Musk himself wasn't really a factor for 95% of people before anyway, I think only americanized Europeans cared about him. I just think Tesla can't find footing in the real low-end EV market because of BYD + Renault and associates (that market is small atm so it isn't an issue), never got in the high-end EV market so it has to compete with historic automaker in a market they have a lot of experience in.

rsynnott 2y ago
> I think only americanized Europeans cared about him. I mean, it depends where you live, but Naughty Old Mr Car has stuck his oar in on, at least, Irish, British and French politics, and has also said many extremely stupid things about Ukraine. He’s getting harder to ignore in Europe.