20 ms·

I put a toaster in the dishwasher (2012)

• more_corn 2y ago
  For my part, I ‘kept the faith,’ and continued searching for Reason. This is science. Theory says one thing, but what does the evidence show?
  • pulvinar 2y ago
    Theory and evidence will show the same thing here. If you've got the right theory. And a common toaster.
• jorgemendes 2y ago
  The relevant question here is: what version of NetBSD is the toaster running?
• pimlottc 2y ago
  (2012) I wonder how much the fraction of toasters that contain electronic components has increased since then.
  • netsharc 2y ago
    I have a feeling the basic cheap toaster has remained unchanged for decades. Ah, but your question is what % of toasters is now non-basic...
• scohesc 2y ago
  The anecdote of walking into a flooded band room to unplug a submerged power bar is uhh.... "shocking" to say the least. I would never walk over to a live, submerged power bar to unplug it. Especially with your feet in the water. Very risky.
  • netsharc 2y ago
    > They are intellectually secure in the center of a vast mob; their wisdom was received, not crafted. It doesn’t need to be crafted, because it is already known, established, beyond question (but demonstrably wrong). Fwiw I wouldn't do it either... But I guess if there's a valid reason, it's good to know the risk is apparently (as this article says...) exaggerated..
  • greatgib 2y ago
    Personally I think that it is how you finish with a Darwin award. Being overly confident. Same kind of thing as driving a bicycle without a helmet because you are used to and never had a problem or like working on fixing your wall power plugs without stopping the electricity because "it is ok, you will not touch the metallic part of the live wires"
  • thrawaway3292 2y ago
    I can't get over the irony of doing this because one was previously wrong about something they thought they were right about.
  • rendang 2y ago
    "Power bar" is that a Commonwealth English term? As an American, power bar sounds like something you would eat
    • gumby 2y ago
      It’s what we say in Australia. If you purchase an edible “power bar” anywhere (not just America) you can be sure it has and can provide no power. It might have a little energy stored as a carbohydrate though.
      • strken 2y ago
        I live in Victoria and I've always called them powerboards. Which state/territory/island calls them "power bars"?
• nuclearsugar 2y ago
  I've always figured any device containing a capacitor would fry some part of the board when water short circuited it. Wrong thinking?
  • NotBoolean 2y ago
    Unless they are charged they are no different from any other component. Capacitors can keep their charge for a long time, especially big ones. But you can discharge them by trying to run the device when it’s not plugged in or waiting a few minutes/hours/days.
  • Kirby64 2y ago
    Most capacitors are drained heavily just by being unplugged for a short period of time, as the other poster mentioned. The other thing is that the capacitor would need to somehow be shorted to a component it wasn’t supposed to… instead of just itself. Shorting to itself is relatively safe (although might result in a pop and some arcing). For something like a toaster (especially the old school ones with just a dial to control toast degree) they’re all mechanical contrivances. No electronics to speak of.
• Obscurity4340 2y ago
  But what would happen if you Microwaved a Toaster?!
  • romwell 2y ago
    This kills the microwave
• jaredhallen 2y ago
  A few years ago, an 8 port Cisco 2960 that was under my management went offline. This switch was in a plastic NEMA box mounted on the outside of a ski lift. When I went to imvestigate, I found that a small glacier had formed over the NEMA box, and had ripped the door off the box. When I got there, the box was full of ice, which was in the process of melting. The switch was still running, but the ice had ripped the trunk patch cable out - apparently the root cause of the switch going down. I unplugged it and extracted it from the ice, and dumped a not-insignificant quantity of water out from inside the switch. I let it dry out for a couple days, got a new cover for the NEMA box (which I screwed shut this time in addition to the little flip latch) and it's been running fine ever since. Who'da thunk?
  • bitwize 2y ago
    I found an HP Elite 8200 behind a dumpster in the rain once. Brought it home, examined the innards, confirmed there was no rust. Let it dry for a few days while I waited for the hard disk to arrive from Amazon (it was once a corporate box, so its permanent storage had been removed and securely disposed of). Sparked it up, it worked fine. I use it as a repo/build server to this day.
• codelikeawolf 2y ago
  It's always interesting to me to see what you can get away with washing/getting wet without ruining it. I bought a bunch of vinyl 45's off of eBay several years ago and they were pretty gross. I stumbled across a forum where someone recommended washing them with water and a little bit of dish soap. As you can probably imagine, a lot of people freaked out in the responses and said it was a terrible idea. I gave it a whirl because the records were cheap and they sounded perfect after they dried. There was no warping or damage, although a few of the labels got a little messed up (but the needle doesn't go there anyways, so I didn't mind). I guess you're supposed to use distilled water, but Chicago water worked just fine.
  • sonofhans 2y ago
    Nice. Once, just for fun, I followed online advice and cleaned a record with wood glue. It takes some time to dry, but it’s really fun, and the record was _spotless_ afterwards.
    • codelikeawolf 2y ago
      Oh yeah, I remember seeing that recommendation as well! I think the reason I avoided it was because it seemed like it would be too messy. I'm guessing it's probably more effective than dish soap, though.
  • wongarsu 2y ago
    Most vinyls are made from PVC. That's actually where the name comes from: the V in polyvinyl chloride. So they are actually pretty resistant and can deal with a significant portion of the stuff found in your cleaning cabinet.
    • buildsjets 2y ago
      First, they are called "records", not "vinyls." Do you call your compact discs "polycarbonates?" Second, the records was working with were not vinyl. He said 45's, and most 45's were pressed in Styrene, not PVC. It is a lot more susceptible to both warping and scratching than vinyl.
• hughdbrown 2y ago
  My son is starting his first week of high school. I am recommending to him that he pose related questions to his physics teacher: - "Is it okay to wash a toaster in a dishwasher?" - "Is it okay to put an electric hair drier in a fish tank when it is plugged in?" And I am hoping he gets a very productive year of science for the effort.
  • ThrowawayTestr 2y ago
    If he's anything like my high school science teachers he'll be told to shut up and hated by his peers for daring to ask questions.
    • jccalhoun 2y ago
      We loved to get my high school physics teacher off on tangents by asking questions about weird things or stories about how he almost died or something
    • hughdbrown 2y ago
      That's one possible outcome. Another is that you resolve with your teacher early in the year the role of experimental results.
• c22 2y ago
  I often run my (PCB) boards through the dishwasher after soldering components to them. To clean off any flux that might be on them.
  • fransje26 2y ago
    A small health PSA from a previous poster [0]: The real risk isn't really to the toaster (who cares, it's just a toaster, and even if it starts on fire when you plug it in, you're probably watching it pretty closely). No, it's that you leach lead or other such nasties (sealing rubbers, PCB epoxies, what-have-you) into your dishwasher and start eating them when they get redeposited onto your dishes. Lead isn't that harmful... except when you eat it. Don't eat lead. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41242348 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41242348
  • romwell 2y ago
    I'm sure the boards are fine after that. Wouldn't feel so great about the dishes you put into the dishwasher afterwards. Ain't no getting fine metal dust out of porcelain, and idk what else got washed off of those boards.
    • c22 2y ago
      I appreciate the concern voiced by you and sibling comment! I failed to mention that I do use a dedicated dishwasher in my garage for this purpose! (And occasionally washing other shop-things). I also have two toaster ovens, a microwave, and a couple minifridges I've dedicated to non-food use over the years.
      • romwell 2y ago
        Now we're talking! Curious to hear about non-food uses of those. So far, I've used a dehydrator machine to dry 3D printing filament, and was going to use a slow cooker for acetone vapor bath smoothing of ABS prints, but never got to it.
• aaron695 2y ago
  [dead]
• KolenCh 2y ago
  I have a similar but less extreme experience. I have a Tommee Tippee prep machine for baby formula milk. The part it has water coming out got so dirty after months of use. Due to lack of sleep like any father of newborn does, I flip it upside down and clean it with running water, and then I found out all the water finds its way into the machine. Then I completely disassemble it, I use a dehumidifier to blow dry air directly to the screen that water made its way between the glasses. Then after it is completely dried, I put it back, it continued to work. So happens I’m a physicist too. Now I should find an electronics to throw into the dish washer. Unfortunately I already get rid of my toaster because it got so dirty, I should have kept it.
  • pipes 2y ago
    I've owned the same machine for five years. I haven't inspected the bit where the water comes out. Maybe I should. Though neither of my two kids seem to have been harmed!
    • KolenCh 2y ago
      It looked like the water going down splashed some milk back to there repeatedly and dried and formed some sort of crystallized milk powder that looks quite disgusting. I would recommend a wipe.
      • pipes 2y ago
        Right! I'm doing this ! Thanks :)
  • romwell 2y ago
    >Unfortunately I already get rid of my toaster because it got so dirty I highly doubt that a dishwasher run would change that. The real reasons not to use the dishwasher are: — dishwasher isn't a replacement from scrubbing — caked-on grease will still be there — you'd need to clean your dishwasher afterwards (more work) — it's far easier to shake the bread crumbs out when they're dry (and there's a convenient latch on the bottom for that) than if they're wet and stuck to the insides — There's a potential for rust to form somewhere inside the toaster, which will not make it work (or look) any better. That's not specific to toasters. Crumpled aluminum foil does wonders for cleaning metallic surfaces from rust and burned grease though. And chemical solutions like 409 can make everything else sparkling clean.
• metadat 2y ago
  The "running blow hair dryer in a water bucket or aquarium" story checks out: .https://youtube.com/watch?v=oJNbBP5MNE8 https://youtube.com/watch?v=oJNbBP5MNE8
• exmadscientist 2y ago
  R&D electrical engineer here! I have to do this sort of thing all the time and can confidently tell you it's pretty normal. The real risk isn't really to the toaster (who cares, it's just a toaster, and even if it starts on fire when you plug it in, you're probably watching it pretty closely). No, it's that you leach lead or other such nasties (sealing rubbers, PCB epoxies, what-have-you) into your dishwasher and start eating them when they get redeposited onto your dishes. Lead isn't that harmful... except when you eat it. Don't eat lead. In fact, if you have a dedicated dishwasher for this (or ultrasonic cleaner! those are pretty awesome, most of the time, for most things!), I'd say it's perfectly reasonable to do this! You know what we call those kinds of things where I work? Parts washers. You know what we wash in them... circuit boards! It's fine! Circuit boards are cleaned with aqueous solutions all the time as part of normal manufacturing! If you don't have a dedicated dishwasher... well, I wouldn't do it then, but if you must, you'll want to run the dishwasher a few more times, empty, with a strong detergent, preferably a lead-chelating one. (You might also make one of those runs with dishwasher cleaner, and strike the whole "yearly dishwasher cleaning" task off your to-do list for the first time this... uh, decade?) You will, of course, want to dry things well. This is both easier and harder with a toaster. Easier because, well, toasters get hot, and this will get any nooks and crannies dry. Harder because one of the tricks to get things dry faster after they come out of a parts washer is to rinse them in alcohol, because alcohol dries very fast. You, uh, don't want to do that with a toaster. At least not one you intend to run any time soon.
  • krackers 2y ago
    >You, uh, don't want to do that with a toaster. Maybe I'm slow, but what goes wrong if you rinse a toaster with alcohol?
    • lucb1e 2y ago
      I guess the joke is that it evaporates rather easily and it's rather flammable, especially fumes that are nicely pre-mixed with air for completer combustion. But that's just my guess at what they meant, author should ideally confirm
• PeterStuer 2y ago
  I have cleaned keyboards and coffee pad machines in the dishwasher several times. Not sure it is recommended, but the things came out clean and after prolonged drying worked flawless every time.
• llimos 2y ago
  Jewish law requires some new utensils to be ritually immersed in water before use[1]. There are differences of opinion around electrical appliances, but I have successfully dunked toasters, cheese toasters, and many other small appliances, let them dry for a few days, and never had any issues. In fact, had OP found this[2] article, they would have seen that > Practice has demonstrated that immersion generally does not harm most equipment if allowed three days to dry out. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tevilat_Kelim https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tevilat_Kelim [2] https://oukosher.org/blog/consumer-kosher/tevilas-keilim-a-primer/ https://oukosher.org/blog/consumer-kosher/tevilas-keilim-a-p...
  • perihelions 2y ago
    Sorry for digressing, but what's a cheese toaster? That sounds exceedingly interesting.
    • seizethecheese 2y ago
      Sounds like a toaster oven to me
    • jajko 2y ago
      I'd expect regular sandwich toaster with humongous amount of cheese in between bread. Not a bad thing per se, poor/busy man's source of calzones, just not a good way to make regular lunches/dinners since nothing that comes out is very healthy in non-small amounts.
      • llimos 2y ago
        yep, that's what I meant
    • YeGoblynQueenne 2y ago
      Maybe a raclette machine? https://www.amazon.fr/raclette-electrique/s?k=raclette+electrique https://www.amazon.fr/raclette-electrique/s?k=raclette+elect...
  • 2y ago
• b3ing 2y ago
  Toasters are roach magnets
• mikedelfino 2y ago
  On a related note, I wonder if people around the world are familiar with electric showers. Essentially, it's a resistance similar to the one found in a toaster, placed right inside the showerhead. It heats the water as it flows through. People hearing about it for the first time are usually shocked that we don't die from electrecution.
  • kkielhofner 2y ago
    I remember seeing my first of these in a small beachside hotel (pousada) in Brasil. In this case the wiring was over-stripped and copper was exposed at the shower head. I used it but I was very, very careful not to splash…
  • yourusername 2y ago
    I still wonder how electrocution is not a big issue. My local electricity codes say absolutely no electricity within zone 0. I get a bit nervous about hooking up IP 65 rated lights to a IP X4 rated switchbox a meter away from the shower head
    • Alupis 2y ago
      There's a reason you don't see this type of water heater in most of the world.
      • mikedelfino 2y ago
        I wonder, though, why there are so few incidents where this type of shower is prevalent, given that people not used to it are so worried. If the fatality rate were 0.0001%, hundreds of people would die every day.
        • Alupis 2y ago
          Just in this thread alone we've found several stories of people being mildly shocked by these devices while on vacation. It's not that people die every day from these devices, it's that in general this isn't a great way to heat water if you have alternatives available. I don't know about you, but I would prefer not to receive a shock, no matter how minor it might be, when I step into the shower...
• jiveturkey 2y ago
  (2012) I did this in 1994 personally. It was fine. I am not a scientist and did not overanalyze it. It seemed obvious to me it would be fine. For whatever reason, since that one time I have never had the need to run any other toaster through the dishwasher again. This was a super simple basic toaster. I wouldn't do it with a modern one with all the various encoders and soft buttons and microelectroncs. Not for any scientific reason, just for similar reason as I wouldn't run my phone through the dishwasher.
  • romwell 2y ago
    I dunno why one would want to put the toaster into the dishwasher in any case. Any caked-on grease would still be there. The outside is easy to clean in any case, and the inside doesn't need to be sparkling (it won't be if you ever actually use the toaster in any case). There's a door on the bottom of the toaster to get the crumbs out; that's necessary maintenance, and it's far easier done if the toaster is dry. Adding water to crumbs will cause them to stick, so the dishwasher shouldn't be the first thing in any case. Parts of my BBQ grill would fit into the dishwasher too, but that's not how I clean them either - dishwasher isn't a replacement for scrubbing. Oh, and there's absolutely a higher risk of getting rust on metals in a dishwasher. And cheap-ass toasters aren't made to be rust-proof throughout. The conventional ignorance of "don't put the toaster into the dishwasher" is based on at least some truth... and the toaster's instruction manual :)
• robotnikman 2y ago
  I've done this with dirty keyboards before, it works pretty well actually!
  • jmclnx 2y ago
    I would never do it with a toaster :) But curious, how did you dry the keyboard ?
    • robotnikman 2y ago
      I just let it air dry for a day. I turned the heated dry option off on the dishwasher just in case.
      • ropejumper 2y ago
        Reminds me of that time my mom spilled a cup of coffee on the keyboard — and then dried it with the hair dryer. We spent a few weeks using the other end of a paint brush to hit the keys whose caps melted off until we could get a new one.
    • BrandoElFollito 2y ago
      I put it in an oven at low temperature, and then let it dry outside for a day. It did not work so I thought it was broken. And then, a few days later I plugged it in and it worked fine (and still does)
• klodolph 2y ago
  “GFCI” is maybe a bad name because it describes what the system is supposed to accomplish but not what it does. It interrupts the circuit in response to a current imbalance between hot and neutral. Kirchoff’s laws… if the current is imbalanced, it must be going somewhere else.
  • MathMonkeyMan 2y ago
    Technology Connections has a good video on the topic, but you probably already knew that.
    • klodolph 2y ago
      Most of my electricity / electronics knowledge comes from books and old forum posts. I would have loved Technology Connections if it came out when I was younger.
  • throwaway7ahgb 2y ago
    New homeowners: Know where your GFCI reset switches are located. I just had a fun time debugging why some of my outlets weren't working. Turns out there was a GFCI tripped in the garage, a few rooms down from the outlet.
    • klodolph 2y ago
      I have never seen a GFCI reset switch in a different room from the outlet. I’m not surprised it exists, but it would make me unhappy.
      • boricj 2y ago
        In France (and apparently the rest of Europe too) our GFCIs are not located at the outlets. They are inside the electrical panels and protect a row of circuit breakers.
      • EricE 2y ago
        I've seen builders put the all the outlets for bathrooms on one circuit with the GFCI in one bathroom - typically the master bath. In my last house the outside outlets were on the GFCI with the outlets in the garage. Anything to save a few bucks as long as code allows it.
• shireboy 2y ago
  Curious after reading the post, I asked GPT: Sent by you: Can I put a toaster in the dishwasher? Sent by Copilot: It’s not a good idea to put a toaster in the dishwasher. Toasters have electrical components that can be damaged by water, and it could be dangerous if water gets into the electrical parts. Instead, you can clean the exterior with a damp cloth and use a brush to remove crumbs from the inside. Is there anything else you need help with? Sent by you: I'm feeling adventurous and plan to let it dry out real well Sent by Copilot: I admire your adventurous spirit! However, even if you let it dry out thoroughly, there could still be hidden moisture that might cause electrical issues or even pose a fire hazard when you use the toaster again. It’s really best to avoid putting any electrical appliances in the dishwasher. If you’re looking for a safer way to clean your toaster, I can share some tips! Would you like that? Sent by you: I did it anyway. Sent by Copilot: Oh no! I hope everything turns out okay. Just to be safe, I recommend not using the toaster until you’re absolutely sure it’s completely dry, inside and out. You might want to leave it in a warm, dry place for several days. If you notice any unusual smells or sounds when you do try to use it, it’s best to unplug it immediately and consider getting a new one. Safety first! Is there anything else I can help you with?
• nashashmi 2y ago
  I used to ask electrical engineers who design building utilities if they ever touched a live wire with voltage running. If not, "how do you know it is really dangerous? How do you know it will electrocute you?" They don't. EVER. Want to talk to me again if they don't have to. #ConventionalIgnorance For reference, I touched 10k volts with microcurrents. It hurts! I touched 240 volts wire and felt the vibrations run up to my elbow before realizing what happened. It terrifies. And I touched 120v electricity leaking through a brick wall in vicinity of a lighting fixture. That hurts too much but doesn't kill.
  • throwway120385 2y ago
    It can be very lethal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_chair https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_chair
    • nashashmi 2y ago
      > The entire execution took about eight minutes. George Westinghouse later commented that, "They would have done better using an axe",[27] and The New York Times ran the headline: "Far worse than hanging".[28] Looks like it takes a while to kill.
  • nashashmi 2y ago
    And looks like this hurt people on HN.
  • advisedwang 2y ago
    > how do you know it is really dangerous? How do you know it will electrocute you? It is possible to learn from others. In fact, our society's entire foundation of knowledge comes from building on the knowledge of past generations and others in our current generation. Not everything needs to be verified from scratch by every user of the knowledge, and if it did we'd never make it past roman tech levels.
  • lmm 2y ago
    > That hurts too much but doesn't kill. It didn't kill once. Not enough of a sample to draw a firm conclusion from.
• snozolli 2y ago
  I stopped watching the show Ozark because of the episode where the saboteur takes an AC line and drops it into the water by a dock in order to electrocute someone. I'm no expert in electricity, but I know that your body has to become a part of the circuit. Similarly, the pivotal moment at the end of The Astronaut's Wife (1999) had me groaning.
  • gumby 2y ago
    Don’t forget the former president’s story about the electric boats and sharks.
  • bemao 2y ago
    I haven't seen the episode in question, but from what I understand people be can electrocuted/drown from swimming in water with current running through it. It is for this reason that it is not recommended to swim in marinas. See e.g. https://www.electricshockdrowning.org/esd--faq.html https://www.electricshockdrowning.org/esd--faq.html
• raicem 2y ago
  > These commenters are speaking authoritatively on subjects about which they are completely ignorant, but they are strident in doing so because they are repeating what everybody knows. They are intellectually secure in the center of a vast mob; their wisdom was received, not crafted. This is an important takeaway for me, maybe even more than “electirc devices are washable”. World is filled with conventional wisdom that limits us in countless directions. Knowing how things work empower us to break these “rules”.
  • Alupis 2y ago
    It's not the water that's the issue generally - it's the minerals in the water. The article author got lucky this time - when electronics die from water contact, it's usually the minerals bridging connections and creating shorts. Letting the device dry does not remove those shorts. Some places have such hard water (lots of minerals) that evaporated water leaves calcium, limestone and other deposits on the surface of everything it's touched. Does that mean doing it once will always cause an issue? Of course not... but repeatedly doing this, and/or becoming used to washing electronics in the dishwasher is a recipe to ruin them in the long term. I would not personally want to play games with a toaster that can be replaced for $20 at your local Walmart...
    • kragen 2y ago
      dried calcium carbonate is not a very good conductor, and neither calcium carbonate nor calcium oxide is deliquescent (edit: i said 'calcium chloride' which is of course both wrong and irrelevant) i think the bigger issue with electronics is overheating their electrolytic capacitors
      • autokad 2y ago
        you do realize the reason why fires get started is because things become a BAD conductor right?
        • kragen 2y ago
• 486sx33 2y ago
  Indeed, it does depend on the toaster. Conventional toaster OK as long as it fully dries. Some kind of fancy toaster with a microprocessor, well - it depends
  • winternewt 2y ago
    Are you saying it might no longer connect to the wifi?
• kragen 2y ago
  it's nice to occasionally see a post-galilean mind
• amenghra 2y ago
  I like their post Eleven Senses. Great blog! https://jdstillwater.blogspot.com/2019/12/eleven-senses.html https://jdstillwater.blogspot.com/2019/12/eleven-senses.html
• NotYourLawyer 2y ago
  > These commenters are speaking authoritatively on subjects about which they are completely ignorant Welcome to the internet. First time here?
• solardev 2y ago
  I was hoping they built a functional toaster inside the dishwasher, such that you could put bread in with your dishes, both would come out hot and ready, and the crumbs would be automatically washed away.
• a1o 2y ago
  The big issue is not the water that will dry if you wait but that the hot water will make something that is glued or something that has two materials that expand different when heated break. There is no amount of letting it dry out or adding rice that will solve if things are apart.
  • askvictor 2y ago
    Also, corrosion/oxidation and any chemical interactions with Dish powder (if that was used) that might not be noticeable at first
    • ASalazarMX 2y ago
      And detergent might wash away grease or oil from parts that need it.
    • nomel 2y ago
      This is a detergent selection problem. There are many detergents (like enzyme based) that are specifically designed for not corroding metals.
      • askvictor 2y ago
        In part, sure, but given that we're talking about a dishwasher here (as opposed to an electronic device washer), I think it's not a stretch to assume using dishwashing powder. Which won't be highly corrosive, but certainly does interact with aluminium. But even without detergent, contact with water can start things rusting pretty fast.
        • nomel 2y ago
          I'm talking about dishwasher detergents. If you use your dishwasher for copper/aluminum pans, there's a good chance you're already using them.
  • cmiller1 2y ago
    I assume most parts of a toaster are designed to handle a bit of heat
• fnord77 2y ago
  > “Sorry #5, but a toaster is an electrical device, not an electronic one, and I’ve already soaked an electrical device in a fish tank for several hours, while it was running.” Not entirely true. Most modern toasters have some sort of electronics in them
  • dekhn 2y ago
    The article is absolutely loaded with falsehoods/misunderstandings.
• cassepipe 2y ago
  Today I learnt that pure water is not conductive and than tap water is a poor conductor at 120V which I believe is the american standard... What about Europe's 230V ? Would he still have gone in the water to unplug the piano if he was in Europe ?
  • Spellman 2y ago
    Luckily we have equations for this! Assume that the water has a fixed resistance of R. You have increased the Voltage V about double. As a result of V=IR, the I, or current flow, will be doubled. Which in this case is probably a moderate tingle since R is so high. For reference, the heart muscles start getting involuntary twitches around 100mA, and at 200mA causes cardiac arrest. And the standard units of Voltage, Amp, and Ohm will serve you well here for any conversions.
    • pvillano 2y ago
      You'll get the same tingle at a greater distance. In fact, if the current is finite and current density decreases with distance, it is bounded by the inverse square law. 240v will give you more distance to react between the tingle radius and the kill radius
  • lucb1e 2y ago
    > Would he still have gone in the water to unplug the piano if he was in Europe? Given that they did feel tingling, honestly I am not convinced one should follow that example anywhere on earth. The post also describes that the breaker thing trips when the electricity takes an "some other route than expected" (their words), which I'd say tingling is indicative of: some electricity was being conducted away via the water and, at some point, their foot. Yet the breaker no trip, so either it wasn't a protected circuit or they drew another wrong conclusion based on that aquarium observation which they expected to go differently based on a previously wrong conclusion. If you can assume the water has a similar conductivity as the tap water in the aquarium (not sure that's a safe assumption after it flooded a room with all sorts of dust and objects in it), and you can assume that your body can handle more electricity than the breaker needs to trip, then a fairly short distance ought to indeed insulate you well enough, but the objective was to get close and turn it off. The post sounded like they based this "I'll do it" opinion basically on the hairdryer-in-aquarium thing which we already know didn't go as expected. To me, the situations "hairdryer runs by itself in water" and "I, standing on a ground, stick my hand near the device's off switch in the water" are two very different things. There could easily have been further unknowns -- and apparently there were since the breaker didn't function in the way that this very post describes it should. Since moving to Germany I've often noticed wariness around "Halbwissen" (loaning the word since it carries extra connotation), meaning half-knowledge but not in the sense of "you know something about it!"; rather, you kinda know but you don't know the details and that causes overconfidence. That works out until it doesn't I don't honestly subscribe to that a whole lot: you can't know everything about everything and we use partial knowledge all day long for nearly every topic. Also electricity, I've noticed before a lot of mysticism and fear goes around unnecessarily. So I like the part where experimenting, when done carefully (letting it dry, using a protected circuit, being aware that it might fail and you should observe it first), is encouraged. However, this particular bit about going into the water and "I felt the electricity but everyone cheered me on!" is not what and how you're supposed to do these experiments
• sand500 2y ago
  Your GFCI outlet may not always trigger: https://youtu.be/SHGo-52wCDc?si=AzZ71UIpPYVjj31X https://youtu.be/SHGo-52wCDc?si=AzZ71UIpPYVjj31X
  • subarctic 2y ago
    I loved that video, it was really entertaining although I didn't see anything in there about GFCI outlets not triggering. The original article does mention how GFCIs don't trigger if current isn't flowing to ground and how that's actually fine (e.g. the hairdryer in water example)
• atoav 2y ago
  As a electronics person with microscope-level repair experience: the problem isn't the water, it is what is in it. And it can become an issue weeks later when residues of minerals and detergent combined with current flows corroded your contacts away, leakage current ts flowing in all kinds of unintended places. PCBs are laminated and can do funny things when treated wrongly. Whether that kills the device or not is hard to say without knowing what is inside it. If in doubt open it, wash everything with isopropanol and a toothbrush. Or you know, using a ultrasonic cleaner with the right solution. Toasters and hair dryers (depends on the kind of course) are as low tech as it gets. Getting them wet is indeed not a big issue, when unplugged. But as a physics teacher he probably has heard about galvanization, oxidation and similar chemical things.. I hope. Corroded electrical contacts have a higher electrical resistance. Higher electrical resistances produce more heat. More heat produces higher resistance..
  • lucb1e 2y ago
    > But as a physics teacher he probably has heard about galvanization, oxidation and similar chemical things.. I hope. As the post says > I learned two things [...] (2) GFIs only trip off when in bodies of water that are grounded. They won’t work in an aquarium sitting on a lab table, or in a plastic laundry sink with plastic drainpipes, or in a plastic shower with plastic drainpipes. I'm neither an electrician nor a physics teacher but I knew that these devices looking for ground leakage work only when the electricity leaks to ground (I guess that's what GFI refers to; I know them as aardlekschakelaar, literally: earth leak switch). That's also why I find it so weird that this teacher describes the functioning as "detects that current is leaking out some other route than expected": it's not like electrons have routing labels you can match against an itinerary. It can very well flow through your body before returning via the normal return wire. Rather, the device detects electricity coming through the ground wire, and so it stands to reason that you need to close the circuit into that ground for it to observe the fault... Why else do all electrical devices with a metal case or a metal structure have these metal bits connected to ground, if not so that most shorts will lead to the circuit being closed towards ground? Anyone who ever took anything electrical apart has seen these extra cables -- I did last week while cleaning the dehumidifier for example. I applaud careful experimentation as they did with the hairdryer and, presumably, the toaster (using it on a protected circuit, observing if it works correctly, etc.). But there are also quite a few sentences in this post where my eyebrows moved
• femto 2y ago
  I was once involved in a similar (unintentional) experiment with a multi-billion dollar defence radar. A several metres deep underground bunker, containing several 19" racks full of electrical/electronic gear, filled to ground level with a combination of mineralised surface water and mud during a storm. What we wanted to do was cut the power, pump the water out of the bunker ASAP and immediately clean the whole lot with pure water. What the (arse-covering) site manager did was nothing, not even cut the power, until a "risk-assessment" had been done. For the first few days we were able to peer into the bunker's hatch and watch der blinkenlights happily operating in the gloom underwater. That stopped after a few days. About a week later the risk had been assessed and a path of action determined: the power was turned off, the water was pumped out and everything was washed with pure water. By then electrolysis had dissolved just about every conductor in the system. Electrical systems will happily cope with water in the short term, but the longer the exposure the less likely they are to survive. Time is part of the risk.
  • rcxdude 2y ago
    It's quite impressive it kept working for that long, and even more amazing someone was capable of saying "no, let's not cut the power, there might be a problem if we do"
    • Aeolun 2y ago
      Honestly, that doesn’t surprise me at all. This seems perfectly in line with “I don’t care what it is, or how well I perform it, as long as I have a job.”
      • hinkley 2y ago
        Few things in my career have granted me more power faster than taking ownership of decisions. Some people are so terrified of having to say "I was wrong" that they either will do nothing, or just happily follow decisions that someone else makes. It's one thing when that's a line employee behaving that way, but there are managers so terrified of making a mistake that all they really are is scribes, tracking who said what and who decided what. These weasels don't lead. They don't contribute anything. They just have a quick answer when someone above them asks how this fuckup happened. Well that was Jameson. He decided to do X so clearly it's his fault things broke. I was in a room once with a guy who was so caught up in the idea of catching me in a gotcha that he had no idea what to do when I said, "yep, that's wrong, and this is how we fix it." His face went through the same roller coaster of emotions that happens when you drop your ice cream cone. I got to say most of what I needed to say before he even recovered. I think I was proudest of keeping a straight face during the entire conversation. Where has intellectual honesty gone that just being transparent verges on a superpower? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.
• krisoft 2y ago
  It is because people use heuristics to navigate their lives. Instead of doing complicated engineering reasoning all the time to ensure their safety they learn simple “rules of thumb”. These rules are incorrect in as much as they have both false positives (something which the rule prohibits, but is safe) and false negatives (something which the rule lets you do, but is not safe). I’m a hobby jeweler and I use an ordinary household microwave to melt copper and silver to cast my projects.[1] At the same time “everybody knows” that you can’t put metal in a microwave. What gives? Is everybody wrong? Of course not. It is just that the statement “don’t put metal in a microwave” is a simplified form of the true statement which would go something like this “don’t put metal in a microwave, unless you follow these safety precautions, and wear these safety gear, and your crucible is made of the appropriate materials, and your moulds are bone dry and …”. Aint nobody has the time to think about all the caveats and dangers when all they want is to warm their meals. So it is simpler, easier, and safer to tell people the abbreviated form of the rule. 1: here is a video https://youtu.be/Oim2QsDp0rY?si=CZrhg6ux1GfiDWqd https://youtu.be/Oim2QsDp0rY?si=CZrhg6ux1GfiDWqd
  • valtism 2y ago
    You can also just have a spoon in the microwave too, right? I think It's only from things like crinkles in aluminium foil and the prongs of a fork that produce sparks and arcing inside.
    • femto 2y ago
      My understanding is that if you want to put metal in a microwave keep it away from the walls. If not, you can get an arc jumping from the metal to the wall and it can burn a hole in the wall of the oven. You should also put something (eg. a cup of water) in the oven to absorb some of the microwave energy. The metal doesn't absorb much energy so without an additional absorber the microwaves can get reflected back into the magnetron and overheat the oven.
      • obloid 2y ago
        A while back on a whim I put my stainless steel coffee cup in the microwave and it just warmed the coffee. No sparks or drama. The metal didn't even get hot.
• swayvil 2y ago
  What we're told is realer than what we see.
• whack 2y ago
  My favorite example of conventional ignorance: some guy was traveling on a plane the girl sitting next to him asked him whether there was wifi available so she could browse the internet. This was about 20 years ago... and the guy was convinced that the girl was an idiot. "We were flying in the middle of nowhere, 20000 feet in the air, and this girl is asking me whether we have wifi?? Some people have no common sense!" Turns out there's a fine line between being an idiot and being ahead of your time.
  • teruakohatu 2y ago
    It still amazes me, even in a world where I can order starlink. That it works with the other 200 people onboard also using it is incredible.
    • globular-toast 2y ago
      We should all take a moment to appreciate the internet. Soon (if not already) we'll be in a time where most people take it for granted, but few think about what is actually happening. The internet lets you send a packet of data to any other computer on earth, as long as it is connected to the internet. To get that access yourself you only need to connect to the internet somehow, that's it. So sure there are more difficult cases like planes, about they only have to worry about their own particular problem of the last mile, once the data has reached the internet it can go anywhere. Imagine if the planes also had to make arrangements with BBC, Google, governments etc to get data access. It would never happen.
• hi_hi 2y ago
  Please, please, clarify this bit for me. > All that day, kids got to see Mr. Stillwater’s hair dryer running under water in a fish tank. I thought I knew about electricity and water, but what I possessed was Conventional Ignorance posing as Conventional Wisdom. Humbling. Should I put the wifes running hairdryer into our fishtank to entertain our child?
  • dekhn 2y ago
    No; the author made a number of reasoning errors throughout the article. """Underwriters Laboratories modified its marking requirements for hair dryers after the CPSC brought to UL's attention reports of injuries and deaths attributed to consumer misuse of hair dryers. Under the modified requirements, hair dryers must be permanently. marked "Danqer-- Electrocution possible if used or dropped in tub. Unplug after using." A tag with warning instructions also is required by UL to be attached to the power supply cord.""" TL;DR insurance underwriters observed enough deaths that they believed it was wise to change a product's markings to avoid having to pay out as much money.
    • deepspace 2y ago
      The electrocution only happens if you get into the tub with the plugged-in dryer. Or try to fish it out with your bare hands while it is still plugged in. Assuming that the dryer continues to run, it is perfectly safe to keep it running indefinitely in a fish tanks (without fish, of course). You just have to unplug it before removing it.
  • __MatrixMan__ 2y ago
    Not if there are fish in it. Otherwise maybe.
  • charles_f 2y ago
    See the other comment with a YouTube video attached. If the aquarium is not conductive, should be ok
• kazinator 2y ago
  I put USB keyboards in the dishwasher. Having done that, I do recommend taking them apart and just washing the upper keycap board, and the elastic membrane underneath it. The reason I recommend that is that the drying time takes long before all the water is gone from between the contact layers and all the keystrokes are reliable. If it's okay for the keyboard not to be ready for use for a bunch of days, then you can just wash it as-is.
• chadcmulligan 2y ago
  My uncle had great fun hosing out his TV in the front yard, many years ago. It was the old CRT type with nice furniture type box, had years of dust built up and was causing problems he suspected in the high voltage. The neighbours raised eye brows, but all worked after.
• hahajk 2y ago
  Whenever I think I've cracked the code on something and know better than everyone else, it's often the case I haven't accounted for everything. From his PPS: > until I planted my bare foot on that bare concrete floor a few inches from the submerged power strip, at which point I felt a mild but discernable tingle in that one foot. I'll give up a clean toaster in exchange for not getting myself into those kind of situations.
• tempestn 2y ago
  He had me up to wading into the water. That seems unwise, and unnecessary when you could shut off the breaker first. Also, as I assume others have pointed out, modern toasters are both electrical and electronic devices; I expect they wouldn't handle the dishwasher quite as well as older ones did. Generally though, 100% on board with the author's point about strident repetition of common "wisdom".
• jmward01 2y ago
  Bias and assumption are needed features of non-deterministic thought. We live in an infinite universe so thinking and exploring until you have truly 'got it right' would lead to death. I have built non-deterministic NNs (which are exceptionally effective by the way) and the key is the loss function and training for learning when to predict that the loop should exit. I really like this article because it shows someone who keeps pushing their 'when to exit loop' training and the positive and negative implications of that.
• tocs3 2y ago
  This might be the best (at least most useful) post I have everr read. If I change my mind I will let you know.
  • adastra22 2y ago
    If you die of electrocution, let us know.
    • tocs3 2y ago
      Had to make sure mom did not find out but it seems to have worked fine. No toast yet but I plugged it in and was not electrocuted. It was still pretty hot and a little damp (did not finish the dry cycle). plugged it right in. A little sizzling from the damp elements but looks ok.
      • adastra22 2y ago
        I would’ve waited a few days, but glad you weren’t hurt.
• drpixie 2y ago
  Love the distinction between "Conventional Wisdom and Conventional Ignorance" :)
• larusso 2y ago
  Great article. I had an argument with a coworker how a normal breaker works and that it won’t just fail when exceeding the rated amp-age. That it can happily continue for minutes. And of course the biggest misunderstanding: Breakers protect the cables in the wall not humans. That they can do that as well is just a nice side effect. Never the less, I would still argue to kill the power before stepping into water with an active mains line running through it. Just a question. How about doing this experiment in 240 land? I would assume the result would be different? Edit: replaced rated power with amp-age
• jlarocco 2y ago
  Unless the toaster's plugged in (and I don't see how it could be) AND as long as it dries completely, then it's probably fine. <goes to skim the article> Yeah, sounds about right.
• charles_f 2y ago
  > A colleague pointed out that toasters are cheap. So I tried it. Mine works, too. JD That's the single best conclusion I've read.
• Animats 2y ago
  I'd use de-ionized water and Simple Green (a citrus-based cleaner which evaporates at about the same rate as water), but I'd expect a toaster to survive once dry. I've cleaned several Teletype machines that way. The problem isn't water; it's solids left behind when the water evaporates, and corrosion. Not all parts will survive this. Microphones and MEMS devices tend not to do well. Motors and transformers with paper insulation don't do well. Most modern electronics goes through a dishwasher-like process after assembly, to remove any excess solder and paste. A few parts have to be added past that point.
  • varjag 2y ago
    Oh speaking of. I have this really gunked up Model 35 tape typing unit and was about to dunk it in motor flushing oil. But then I see it has felt pieces and the magnets appear to be coated in shellac. Do you submerse your units completely or do you remove the sensitive parts?
    • Animats 2y ago
      I've done the older machines, Teletype Model 14 and 15, nearly a century old. I remove the magnets and the motor and immerse everything else. The Model 35 has many plastic parts and some electronics, so I can't speak from experience. Look up Greenkeys Digest and ask there. ("All gunked up" usually means the wrong lubricant was used at some point. Usually something that has heavy fractions. The short, light hydrocarbon molecules in the oil evaporate, leaving behind the long chains that are basically asphalt. The original Teletype oil was whale oil. I lubricate Teletypes with 0-20W fully synthetic motor oil, which is supposed to be a consistent length of hydrocarbon. So when it evaporates over a few years, it just leaves dry metal. Especially avoid WD-40. All wrong for this.)
      • varjag 2y ago
        Thanks for the tips, I did in fact subscribe to Greenkeys just a few days ago! The machine cycles when I turn the shaft but it's quite filthy. And I don't have the motor or the base for it just the typing unit proper (which is basically a simplified typing reperforator). On that one there's hardly anything fancier than the magnets or the edge connector although yes there could be a couple Nylon pads.
• roydivision 2y ago
  Like all good writing, this article is not about the subject in the title. This is the pertinent line : > They are intellectually secure in the center of a vast mob; their wisdom was received, not crafted.
• wtcactus 2y ago
  It's funny because I was wondering exactly this on Monday. I never did try to put any electronics in the dishwasher, but, several times in the past, I was a bit amazed on how electronic devices - not rated as water-resistant - that got completely soaked, worked just fine after I turned them off and let them dry for some days. In my past experiences, most stuff that got unusable was because water got inside the LCD display, and left some debris that was impossible to remove. I decided to put my toaster in the dishwasher after that.
• jontutcher 2y ago
  One of Dave Rat’s old Red Hot Chili Peppers tour videos/blogs has him putting the channel cards from a very expensive analogue Midas sound desk in a dishwasher to fix them after somebody spilt beer over the desk during a gig. Worked great!
• kreyenborgi 2y ago
  Why didn't he just turn off the fuses before rescuing the pianos instead of hoping it would be like the hair drying episode?
• bankcust08385 2y ago
  I would fear the dishwasher would rust my Sunbeam vintage toaster.
• _xnmw 2y ago
  Ooh, I love these points of Conventional Faith presenting itself as Reason. I would argue that most true Knowledge is actually knowing what is not true, yet commonly believed. Actually, if used wisely, you can execute arbitrages on financial markets for profit, aside from other social benefits, at the cost of appearing insane in the beginning. Peter Thiel says that almost every successful person has "secrets", i.e. things that they know about the world that fly in the face of Conventional Faith and that they therefore exploit to their advantage until it's a fait accompli. Personally, I have quite a few, which if I posted here, would get me downvoted like mad, even on HackerNews, but here are some of my LESS controversial ones: * Cloud services like AWS actually take more time, resources, and headache to maintain than baremetal servers, whether at the scale of a few backoffice users or millions of consumers. Related: the vast majority (95%+) of apps could run on a single baremetal server and be more reliable than whatever cloud shit you use. * Most SPAs are garbage. Unless you are building something like Figma, write backend code only, don't use a frontend framework like React, and when reactivity is needed, tie it to the backend with something like Livewire. Actually even Figma uses WASM. * Using a framework like Laravel that makes the business logic easy is far more important than choice of a language based on its technical characteristics. * People who are outwardly racist are often the easiest to work with, as a minority. And vice-versa, people who outwardly appear anti-racist are often masking a deeply inbred superiority complex and patronizing attitude (hello Democrats), and are the most difficult to work with unless you submit to their authority. Allowing open racism actually makes it easier for a minority to live, and I say that as a minority. Oh I could go on but I'll stop here.
• chihwei 2y ago
  I am not educated in the US and never used toaster before entering the US, and I am surprised so many people think toasters can't be washed. Most electronic and electric products can be dried if you leave it there for a long enough time. I washed many of them throughout my life.
• tonymet 2y ago
  The line is between people who work in the real world and people who are mostly online. In the real world, like a job site or auto shop, the hammer and flathead screwdriver are the two top tools. Generally abused and rarely mentioned in service manuals. In the "online" world, every tool has strict boundaries and restrictions.
• vagab0nd 2y ago
  I was surprised that residential electrical wiring was such a nuanced thing. You ask a simple question like "why are neutral and ground connected?" to 10 electricians and you'll get 10 difference answers. I probably spent a good 5 hours to get to the bottom of it and now I have to remind myself again how it works.