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Anecdotally, in conversations with other drivers, it seems that far too many people overestimate their driving habits. A standard wall outlet will charge a car

Anecdotally, in conversations with other drivers, it seems that far too many people overestimate their driving habits. A standard wall outlet will charge a car perfectly fine for your average driver assuming you can park the car for several hours. I would hope the vast majority of Americans who have access to a driveway will be able to find a block of time for this. Perhaps this duration may be found overnight when one sleeps. If the worst happens and you need to travel for an emergency, you just need enough juice to get you to a DC fast charger. You’d only be spending 10 minutes charging anyways to carry on. I would place bets that most people do not keep their gas cars filled to 100% in case they need to do that weekly emergency 300-mile drive that everyone seems to have. The bigger and most realistic issue is capacity for travel rushes. When everyone’s driving to relatives for the holidays, finding a line at chargers isn’t ideal. Fortunately this isn’t a problem in the vast majority places today and I hope continued investment in fast charging networks ensures this remains a limited problem.

NegativeK 2y ago
I was charging my car on a 120V, 15A circuit (12A draw to the car) for over a year. I'd use about 8kWh per day with a 20 mile round trip commute + extras; that translated to needing about 5.5 hours of charging. It really was fine, but it was near the limit of what's practical without using a fast charger. Extra trips around town would put me at a deficit, and it'd take a few nights of charging to bring things back up to my set point of 80%. Additionally, I had to think a few days out for when I'd know I'd be doing a bunch of driving to make sure I gave myself enough buffer. Now, having a charging circuit that can put out over 9kW means I can think about it a lot less. But I thoroughly agree with you: a normal mains outlet is often fine, and holiday road trips can be messy.
- b112 2y ago
  You know, there's a car train between the northern US and further south. Your car goes on one train car, you get to relax in the train. And I know the UK/france tunnel is like this too. Seems like an optimal solution in some respects, if optimized. For example, millions of Canadians travel to Florida each year for the winter, a lot by car. If such a train ran once a day, it would help many with range anxiety for such cases. But imagine if major cities had such trains between them daily? These can still carry commuters without cars, too! And of course, we don't need everyone to be covered by this solution today, because the goal is to keep the transition to electric happening. This would help.
  - RandomCitizen12 2y ago
    Looking at prices, the chunnel car shuttle seems to be $200 for a 50 mile trip. If a regular American car was driving this distance it would cost about $10 in gas. I don't see this catching on for links between cities.
    - pxndxx 2y ago
      the chunnel goes _under the sea_ for 30 miles.
      - RandomCitizen12 2y ago
        Yes. But most of the cost of the ticket will be operating expenses for the train and associated service. The cost of building under a body of water, which is large, does not make most of the ticket price difference.
        Symbiote 2y ago
        The cost of the Channel Tunnel (by car) is determined by what the market will sustain: the only alternative to move a vehicle is a ferry. The train is a bit faster. A more realistic comparison is something like Villach in Austria to Edirne in Turkey, which is 1400km by road, and €259 one-way for a car plus €149 for one person (https://www.seat61.com/motorail-trains.htm https://www.seat61.com/motorail-trains.htm).
        RandomCitizen12 2y ago
        For comparison, math for the Villach to Edirne trip comes up with USD 158 in gas for the average US car mileage and gas price for 1400km, versus USD 443 for the car + person tickets.
        abenga 2y ago
        I'd gladly pay 300 dollars not to drive 1400km. Once or twice a year, I drive 320km, and I think about twice that (to and fro) is the limit of what I am reasonably willing to drive over a couple of days.
- bryanlarsen 2y ago
  > it'd take a few nights of charging to bring things back up to my set point of 80% But is that an issue? As long as you always have enough juice to get to a fast charger, and you can always get back to 80% by Friday morning, isn't that enough? Sure, it's nice to have a 9kW charger, and I'm glad I do. But if I would have been forced to pay $5K to upgrade my mains connection I would likely have just kept the $5K and charged on 120V.
  - jdeibele 2y ago
    I've been doing 120V for just over a year with the Chevrolet portable charging cable. It's mostly been fine, the main issue is that it stops working every so often and has to be unplugged and plugged back in. My Bolt lets me say that the circuit is dedicated to it at home and pulls 12 amps instead of the 8 amps it would pull anywhere else. It's trying to make sure it doesn't overload the circuit. We are moving to a newer home and I already have the 240V charger installed there. Looking forward to 25-30 miles of range per hour (running at 32A normally but have a dedicated 60A circuit) instead of the 3 I'm getting now. At this house, the 200A panel is full so I would have had to add another panel.
    - malfist 2y ago
      Emporia makes a load balancing charger. You hook an anmeter around the mains and it can pull anything less than the max the box can handle. My 200 service was also "full" but when monitoring the energy, we rarely pull above 40 amps. We'd only hit 200 if the emergency heat was running at max for both HVACs, the oven was on, the water heater was going and the dryer was running. Pretty hard to do by accident, nigh impossible if you think about it
  - NegativeK 2y ago
    I probably would've stuck with 120V charging if I didn't also want the 240V outlet for machine tools/etc in my garage. And like you, I wouldn't've paid to upgrade the panel if that was necessary. Fortunately there was capacity.
- LinAGKar 2y ago
  > that translated to needing about 5.5 hours of charging How much time do you have available for charging? I'd have thought you'd spend a lot more than 6 hours a day at home. And chargers at work would allow charging the car near constantly when it's not being driven (other than days when you travel elsewhere), so I think that's an important part of transitioning to EVs.
- eurleif 2y ago
  Your daily travel was around half of the average American's[0], and as you said, that was near the limit of what's practical. It follows that for the average American, a normal outlet is not fine. [0] https://www.axios.com/2024/03/24/average-commute-distance-us-map https://www.axios.com/2024/03/24/average-commute-distance-us...
  - SoftTalker 2y ago
    But using two outlets, on opposite phases, would give you double the voltage. Might be too much to expect people to identify two suitable outlets and have a “Y”extension lead that would bring them together.
    - giantg2 2y ago
      Somewhere a copy of the NEC is bursting into flames. You'd be better of installing a new circuit with proper equiptment. Most homes would be able to at least accommodate a 20amp 220v socket, which takes about 40% of the charging time of a regular socket (15amp 110).
      - amluto 2y ago
        OTOH I see no fundamental reason that one couldn’t build an EVSE that connected to two different outlets and drew from both of them. Two branch circuits supplying the same device is not especially rare.
        giantg2 2y ago
        I've never seen that. With the right protection circuits it could work safely. However, most garages seem to only have one branch anyways, so might as well add a 20amp+ 220v branch.
        toast0 2y ago
        In a (large, recently constructed) garage, it seems likely that you've got multiple circuits with outlets. If you've got multiple outside outlets, they're probably all on the same circuit. If the hots are the same phase, I don't know if there's a way to determine if they're behind the same breaker or not. If the hots are on different phases, you need to return to each neutral or the gcfi that's likely to be present on an outdoor outlet will trip.
- Dylan16807 2y ago
  > near the limit of what's practical without using a fast charger "fast charger" usually means one of those fancy DC systems, not just a bigger outlet.
  - MengerSponge 2y ago
    Confusingly, Level 2 charging can refer both to 220V AC or fast DC charging. Context is key, but home level 2 (AC) can get up to about 20kW, while DC Level 2 easily delivers up to 400kW. "Fast charger" in the context of home charging means 20-50A at 220V, which is enough to fully charge the battery in a few hours. Basically, you can roll in on fumes at midnight, plug in and go to sleep, and wake up and leave the next morning with a full tank.
    - sokoloff 2y ago
      I’ve always heard DC Fast Charging called “DC Fast Charging” or “Level 3”. I don’t think I’ve ever heard it called Level 2.
      - MengerSponge 2y ago
        Because if you use the wrong terminology it's more clear, but SAE J1772 specifies two levels of DC fast charging.
    - recursive 2y ago
      No one calls DC fast-charging "level 2". It's a mistake. Let's not confuse the issue by starting now.
      - MengerSponge 2y ago
        I dunno what you want to happen here: SAE J1772 refers to level 1 and level 2 DC fast charging. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772
        2y ago
- verisimi 2y ago
  > it was near the limit of what's practical without using a fast charger > I had to think a few days out for when I'd know I'd be doing a bunch of driving to make sure I gave myself enough buffer Its hard to accept a future that involves this sort of compromise and introducing new stresses for an inferior solution.
  - Dylan16807 2y ago
    You have to think about gas too, you're just used to it. And the future has enough fast chargers that it's hard to be caught out no matter where you go. The future also involves more high power plugs, which would have removed the issue you quoted. If you would mind that issue more than they did, then you just need to get a plug installed when you buy an EV.
    - verisimi 2y ago
      Its a different order of magnitude. I don't need to think about fuel every day, and I don't have to consider my week if I have a busy day.
      - Dylan16807 2y ago
        All of that gets removed if you have a bigger outlet. There are some people that mind that very little and won't bother to get the upgrade, but judging EVs in general based on the 120-volt situation is like judging pasta in general based on cups of instant ramen.
      - SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago
        People who walk out every morning to an EV fully charged up on a home L2 charger (the "high power plugs" mentioned above) very seldom have to think about charge, and definitely not "every day". How would you feel if your car automatically had a full tank of gas every morning? Even when near empty the night before. It's described as the complete opposite of "worry every day".
        2y ago
- playa1 2y ago
  I had been doing a similar 1kw trickle charging setup for 3 years. While it was sufficient for daily driving we would go on longer drives regularly, mostly on weekends so 2-4 times a month. It was annoying mental overhead to have to plan out the charging so often. Three months ago we ran 240v to the garage and now have 12kw charging at home. It has been a game changer! We don’t have to think or plan around the charging. Every morning the car is at 75% (the limit we have set). And if we are going on a long drive I can move it to 90% or 100%. I really regret not getting the level 2 charger years ago when we got our first EV.
- Fatnino 2y ago
  An acquaintance of mine lost his lease on house he was renting and temporarily moved his family out of state while looking for a new place here. As you can imagine, this turned into many months of them being gone. He left his Chevy Bolt parked across the street from his former residence (or rather, across from the construction site that replaced it). Eventually, the car got impounded and I got roped in to go bail it out and bring it to another friend of ours who had space to store it legally. When I got the car, the battery was almost completely discharged. When dropped off the car I don't actually know how it was still moving. We plugged it in to a regual home wall outlet be cause that's all there was. The car computer said it would take SIXTY HOURS to charge to full. That's two and a half DAYS.
  - r00fus 2y ago
    Completely unsurprised. Just consider the energy density of gasoline or a modern EV battery. The fact remains that a full EV battery can really take you a long ways.
    - Fatnino 2y ago
      It really can't. A fully charge bolt (when it's still new) will take you about 250 miles. You won't find a gas car that can't go 300 miles on a tank. I currently have an old prius (which is admittedly far above average compared to regular cars) and it can go 450 miles on a tank. And that tank gets filled up faster than the time it takes to walk inside and buy a bag of chips.
  - Kirby64 2y ago
    Very normal. You have to consider how long you need to 'replenish' the the range you used from your daily driving. Assuming you plug in when you get home, you likely have ~10 hours of charging time. Standard wall outlet is 12A continous, so 1440W. Most 120V is relatively 'inefficient' due to needing to run all the cooling infrastructure which tends to be a fixed overhead. A good number is roughly 4 miles of range per hour of charge on a 120V standard outlet for most normal vehicles (Bolt, Model 3, Ioniq 5, etc) So, as long as you're driving less than 40 miles per day, 120V outlet will always keep you topped up. If you charge longer (i.e., plug in at 8PM, leave at 7AM) then the numbers look even better. Some considerations for cold climate and whatnot, but 40 miles in a day is a good commute.
- m463 2y ago
  I did the same thing. My daily use averaged 24 miles and 110v worked just fine. Since then, batteries have gotten bigger, I have a 220v charger than can easily fill the large battery overnight with cheaper power, many parking garages have chargers, and high speed fast chargers have become commonplace. I kind of wonder if the people purchasing cars for these theoretical events have a first aid kit in their car, emergency food in the house, or savings for a few months out of work. I think getting a older big gas SUV with plenty of storage space is a good backup. You can haul things too big or dirty for your EV, use gasoline when electricity for some reason doesn't work, and haul around a big family visiting from out-of-town. You can also lend it to the people who don't understand EVs.
delecti 2y ago
Yes, definitely agreed. My wife and I haven't ever used a public charger with just a 120V outlet in our garage, and I suspect that would apply to many other people as well. For a great many more, a 240V charger is easily installable in any garage or driveway and dramatically increases how much you can charge overnight. That's obviously not going to work for everyone, but between the two of them it drastically reduces the number of charging stations needed in suburban areas.
piquadrat 2y ago
One drawback of charging on an 120v (or 230v) outlet is efficiency. While charging, the energy consumption of an electric car can easily reach 300-400 watts. When you're only charging with 1800-2400 watts, that's a sizeable amount of energy that never reaches the battery. With a dedicated level 2 charger, you can charge with 10+ kW, making the percentage that is lost in the electronics of the vehicle much smaller.
- bonzini 2y ago
  That doesn't match my experience. At 9-10A (2100W) the efficiency is way above 90%, meaning the consumption of the rectifier inside the car is more in the 100-150W range.
- redserk 2y ago
  I agree that it isn’t the most efficient manner, this is not an insurmountable issue for the vast majority of people. The cost will still be well under half the price of gas for most people driving electric sedans and crossovers. Yes, those living in the Bay Area with a Hummer EV will find the economics problematic but this solution is fine for the vast majority of other situations throughout the US.
- mindslight 2y ago
  > While charging, the energy consumption of an electric car can easily reach 300-400 watts This is the first I'm hearing of this. Is this for real? Six modern desktop PCs worth of power, doing what? And that draw only occurs while charging, so it goes away when the car is "off"? Is this for heating the battery when it's cold? I'm not trying to jump on you, I'm just seriously surprised.
  - piquadrat 2y ago
    My source is an article from the ADAC, a German automobile association. https://www.adac.de/rund-ums-fahrzeug/elektromobilitaet/laden/ladeverluste-elektroauto-studie/ https://www.adac.de/rund-ums-fahrzeug/elektromobilitaet/lade... They say 100-300W for the onboard electronics, and 15-25% total loss when using a wall socket (other losers contribute as well, e.g. cables that weren't originally meant to run at peak current for hours on time).
johnnyanmac 2y ago
> I would hope the vast majority of Americans who have access to a driveway will be able to find a block of time for this. Given housing costs, that assumption of access isn't a sound one. And Apartments from what I've seen have maybe 5 total charging stations for every few hundred cars? >Fortunately this isn’t a problem in the vast majority places today and I hope continued investment in fast charging networks ensures this remains a limited problem. well, not today. If the adoption is aggressive this can and will quickly be an issue in urban areas.
- johnea 2y ago
  In the US, ~70% of people live in single family houses. Most people already have an EV "gas station" at home...
  - johnnyanmac 2y ago
    I'd want to see a breakdown of that by demographic. I don't think many boomers are itching to switch to FEV as of now.
js2 2y ago
Just to put some numbers on it. A standard outlet is rated for 1440 watts under continuous load (1800 * 80% per NEC) or 1.44 kWh. A Tesla Model 3 travels around 4 miles per kWh. So each hour of charging provides between 5-6 miles of range. Installing a 240V/30A "dryer" outlet would allow charging about 4X faster. Personally, we own a Chevy Volt and get about 3.5 miles per kWh out of it. I installed a 240V/30A outlet in our garage, but the Volt's max recharging rate is 4 kWh. Still that gives us 14 miles/hour.
- SoftTalker 2y ago
  And in a gas car you get 300-400 miles of range or more in a 5-minute fuel stop. That’s the inconvenience they needs to be largely overcome.
  - SirSourdough 2y ago
    As others mention it really depends on your use case. If you can charge at home (ideally at 240v), and you don’t drive more than the range of your vehicle in a day regularly, it’s gas that has an inconvenience to overcome. I don’t have a gas pump at my house. If you are an Uber driver and you do 2-3x the range every day, it’s a different story. But if you can charge for free - which isn’t hugely uncommon currently - you can save a lot of money on gas with an EV, so there are tradeoffs.
    - zdragnar 2y ago
      The daily drive isn't what people are thinking about when charging time is brought up. They're thinking about visiting family, or short day trip vacations, or longer hauls through very rural areas. Or, they live in an apartment complex that doesn't let them run extension cords out to their cars or have charging stations for everyone yet (though admittedly this is only a matter of time).
      - throwaway4220 2y ago
        Anecdotally I just went on a 200 mile trip. Had to fast charge once but I was able to fully charge at my destination with a 110 volt outlet and a long extension cable. Turns out I like to lounge for about 16 hours a day on vacation. Of course I rented a Tesla for this trip and at home I can’t charge because I live in a condo. So it’s tradeoffs all the way down in life
bdcravens 2y ago
I keep a 110v charger in my car for emergencies (especially since my car can charge others in a pinch), but it wasn't that hard to install a 220 in my garage (of course Texas is a bit more lax when it comes to doing that kind of work without a license, though I was pretty meticulous about following code). I didn't buy a super expensive charger, and the most expensive part was the Romex (it was when copper was pricier), and overall it cost me about the price of a basic gas grill.
giantg2 2y ago
"A standard wall outlet will charge a car perfectly fine for your average driver assuming you can park the car for several hours." This could be a problem in the future though. As the newer chemistry for batteries increases energy density, it would demand more power or time assuming one still drains the battery a sufficient amount to reduce cycles in an effort to preserve battery life. Edit: why disagree?
- Dylan16807 2y ago
  Batteries don't care about cycle count, if "cycle" in this context is every time you switch between charging and discharging. They care about how many amps go in and out, along with disliking being too close to 0% or 100%. Limiting max charge is easier if you have extra range, and so is staying away from empty. Making the battery hold more energy only improves things. Go ahead and charge every night. If you see someone giving "cycle count" as a spec, they mean full cycles. If you charge 10% five times, that's half a full cycle.
  - giantg2 2y ago
    I know specs go by full cycles. I was always taught not to shallow charge because each partial charge essentially carried some overhead to it. Sort of like two 10% is not equal to one 20% charge. I guess that's not true anymore since I couldn't find anything on it.
    - Dylan16807 2y ago
      Keep in mind that the battery is doing an extra transition between charge and discharge every time regenerative breaking kicks in.
      - giantg2 2y ago
        Looks like maybe I was thinking of the lead acid battery "formatting" phase. Seems as though lead acid batteries benefit from deep cycles with full charges, while lithium batteries benefit from smaller depth of discharge without going to full.
markus_zhang 2y ago
The biggest issue with real life is that we have to prepare for 5-6 sigma events, and they actually happen quite often. Otherwise the whole insurance industry should die away. I think the biggest hassle is that we need to make sure that each place we spend vacation in has enough EV charging stations. We do go for distances that need intermediate filling/charging quite often (reads once per month perhaps) I never had to worry about that for my gas burning Tucson 2020. Even having to worry about it, having to do research about that is a hassle for ordinary people. We already have too much to worry about. And then there is the issue of charing is way too slow. It may also induce excessive shopping at the charging station -- the most expensive places for drinks and foods. And then there is the issue of long-term (read 2-5 days) power outage in Quebec early springs which occur more often than I want to believe (we just had one last year, and minor outages occur after EACH rain here and there). It does hit gas stations too, there are more gas stations than charging stations anyway. And what benefit does EV give me? I don't care about driving experience. I'm insensitive to gas price jumps. And the cynical me believe that once we have more EVs the businesses would simply double the charging costs. I'll probably switch to an EV eventually, but that's when charging stations are literally everywhere in Canada.
- tootie 2y ago
  I think realigning expectations ever so slightly can cure a lot of that. The cost of renting a gas car once a year or calling a taxi when you're stranded are comparatively tiny compared to retaining full-time ICEs just in case. I'm a city person so my default is no car and rent/taxi when I need one. My automotive expenditures per month probably nets out around $50 or so and I can handle any exigency.
  - markus_zhang 2y ago
    I think "cost" consists of two parts: financial and mental. The financial side is probably negligible, but the mental part could be larger. But everyone has one's own needs so I fully understand your scenario.
  - RcouF1uZ4gsC 2y ago
    > The cost of renting a gas car once a year or calling a taxi when you're stranded are comparatively tiny compared to retaining full-time ICEs just in case That is because a lot of people have ICE cars already. If there were a lot of people like you, I suspect rentals would get more expensive. In addition, because of the likelihood of correlation (for example a blizzard that knows out power) you may have a bunch of people also wanting to rent he ICEs at the same time making them unavailable for you.
violet13 2y ago
> Anecdotally, in conversations with other drivers, it seems that far too many people overestimate their driving habits. Or conversely, folks who are making this argument underestimate the flexibility people want out of a car. If all you factor in is the average daily work commute, then most car owners don't need a car to begin with - even in the US. There's usually some public transport, or work-provided transportation, or opportunities to carpool with a neighbor. Not glamorous, but enough to get you through your average day. The car culture has very little to do with averages. And for what it's worth, it's the same for most other goods, from computers to kitchen appliances. I mean, how many techies need a kitchen in their home to begin with?
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > folks who are making this argument underestimate the flexibility people want out of a car It’s anxiety. I took a parent’s EV to Sonoma and back (100 mi each way + detours + driving around Sonoma) and stopped once for a 5-minute fast charge on the way back. The battery got to a low of 5%, but that was expected. Unbeknownst to me, my father was checking the battery level remotely and freaking out that it would get that low. Let me remind you, this is in the Bay Area. There is no deficit of public chargers here. Another: I had a mid-forties friend visit me in Wyoming. I have a gas Subaru. Its fuel level getting to quarter full—good for at least 100 miles—freaked them out. To go to the grocery store. Two miles away.
  - WildGreenLeave 2y ago
    I think this is partly because there is not really an alternative once you run out. Getting a jerrycan of gas from a gasstation is possible, a reasonable expectation can be made that if that happens a good samaritan will help you. Or a friend can drop by with one. The same thing cannot be said about electric cars, unless you have a good friend with a fuel generator. Even then you still have to wait for it to charge. More likely you will be towed, at least in The Netherlands they will tow you to the next parking place. If you are lucky it will be one with a charger, if you are unlucky you are once again on your own.
MisterBastahrd 2y ago
I won't buy a car that I can't adequately evacuate in. This means 700 miles with a 10 minute stop for gas / restroom. I don't care about personal emergencies. I care about local emergencies. It only sounds unreasonable until you've had to do it multiple times.
- speedgoose 2y ago
  If you need to evacuate 1000km as fast as possible without stopping, bring water and food and be prepared to die in a massive traffic jam. Or in the post apocalyptique world that will follow. Or maybe you can stop a few more minutes when it happens?
  - MisterBastahrd 2y ago
    Did you ever consider that the reason I would prefer a gas engine over electric is because I can quickly refuel a gas tank to be full and be on my way? You aren't doing that when there are lines down the road at each station along the route and you're in an electric car. You're just stranded, because if these are EVs, they will either take forever to charge or you're going to make a dozen supercharger stops that will literally eat up HOURS of your time.
    - speedgoose 2y ago
      Your gas station has electric pumps. Doesn't take hours to fast charge.
      - MisterBastahrd 2y ago
        It does when everyone is waiting on "electric pumps" because they've switched to vehicles which are far more inefficient on average at refueling. Try thinking about the situation instead of just coming up with a dumb rebuttal that doesn't make even a tangential amount of sense.
        2y ago
overstay8930 2y ago
People overestimate because underestimating means you just wasted 50k+ on something that doesn’t meet your needs. That’s why normal people don’t buy EVs, cars are usually the most expensive thing someone owns outside of real estate and you’re going to have a hard time convincing someone to buy something that is a worse value. It’s why so many people own pickup trucks and large SUVs. People don’t buy vehicles for what they need 95% of the time, they buy vehicles that will do whatever they want it to do 100% of the time.
- adolph 2y ago
  Which is an interesting parallel to Taleb's "The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dictatorship of the Small Minority." Essentially one's own fringe preferences dictate the design requirements of something that doesn't utilize that preference a significant amount of time. https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dictatorship-of-the-small-minority-3f1f83ce4e15#.z5ry4bucq https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dict...
  - robcohen 2y ago
    Which makes sense, imagine only have shoes that worked on 95% of the floors you walk on. Imagine a fridge that only cools 95% of your food, and it’s a fun surprise when it doesn’t. This is entirely rational, and reminds me of people who can’t understand why everyone doesn’t bike everywhere. It just reeks of solipsism. I own a Tesla, and I have to tell you it’s a massive pain to own an EV and live in an apartment complex. It’s honestly frustrating to the point that I regret getting it. The performance is great, but the interior, significant price drop in the year I’ve owned it, and the constant anxiety about the battery has not made for a pleasant experience. If I could go back I’d get a Mercedes S class that’s 5-7 years old.
    - yurishimo 2y ago
      Gotta admit, after moving to the Netherlands, it’s kinda legit insane how much stuff people will carry on a bike. A new 55” tv is not uncommon! Today I saw a lady with two toddlers and a grocery bag swinging from the handlebars. I take your point though. There are still plenty of delivery trucks and personal autos, even in this biking paradise.
ClassyJacket 2y ago
I certainly find that standard wall outlet charging at 240v is enough for me in Australia, altho the US power system is lower voltage/power. I don't even plug in every night, usually every second night. The problem is that I need to move and I can't afford a house, only an apartment. I may never afford a house. So I'll be relying 100% on public charging. Not because home charging is too slow, but because I will have no access to it.
- vel0city 2y ago
  The US power system is 240V. Every home has 240V service.
jjav 2y ago
> A standard wall outlet will charge a car perfectly fine for your average driver assuming you can park the car for several hours. "several" doesn't convey the reality here. It's a lot of hours. My partner has an EV and coming back from work it gets plugged in and by noon next day it is still not charged up to what it was before going to work the day before. It kind of works because here they only need to go to work twice a week and not on consecutive days, but on rare occasions when consecutive days are needed it requires a trip to a commercial charger. > You’d only be spending 10 minutes charging anyways to carry on. No. They drive to whole foods and spend an hour or so waiting around to charge it up enough to get to work and back (not 100%). It takes a lot of committment and careful planning to drive an EV. For an occasional commute like here, it's mostly ok.
- _fizz_buzz_ 2y ago
  > It's a lot of hours. My partner has an EV and coming back from work it gets plugged in and by noon next day it is still not charged up to what it was before going to work the day before. What kind of outlet are we talking about here. Either this outlet is somehow very limited or the commute is very long.
  - jjav 2y ago
    > What kind of outlet are we talking about here. A standard wall outlet, as in the post I was responding to.
to11mtm 2y ago
> Anecdotally, in conversations with other drivers, it seems that far too many people overestimate their driving habits. I mean, yes and no. But there's side effects. Haven't looked at TFA but unless they considered realities of condos/etc (my condo, parking is more like an apartment) that must be considered too. If I don't have a way to charge my car at night I will hold on to an ICE with every fiber of my being, and at this rate unfortunately it's the just about-ish 12 year old 20-25MPG WRX instead of the 2.6 year old 37-45MPG Maverick Hybrid, based on downtime/repair cost if I had to pick one today. As far as 'driving habits' mine vary greatly. However whenever possible I take the Maverick for trips that can be hotshot (my current record is ~830 miles in 14ish hours with 10-15 minute stops along the way as needed.) Honestly with a good side crew I can do it all myself while clearing my mind (i.e. spare cycles while focusing on driving, I think about baggage.) I honestly don't know if I could do the same sort of trip in a current EV even if there were the best charging stations at every stop we went to. Maybe we could? OTOH that's the 'distance' case. Compare to driving up north in MI where stations are few and far between, or worse, the UP where a car accident may cause a many-hour backup. I should note, for my hybrid, my 'cutoff' for Hotshotting, once I am <100 miles till refuel, I get topped fully back off. I know how to mitigate, but how do we deal with the people that can't even handle stop signs and signals?
coretx 2y ago
Also: If you only slow charge, it will _drastically_ increase your battery life span / general health.
pdonis 2y ago
> If the worst happens and you need to travel for an emergency, you just need enough juice to get you to a DC fast charger. You’d only be spending 10 minutes charging anyways to carry on. And if it's an emergency, why would I want to waste 10 minutes charging instead of just going where I need to go right away--since it's an emergency? Arguments like this boil down to "I think you should accept just giving up something you want, for nothing in return." Which ordinary people quite rationally do not see as a deal they should accept.
metadat 2y ago
Cheers an EV on a 120v outlet is extremely slow, over the course of 6-8 hours you may get only 8% or so, at best. It's unclear what experience you've had but the laws of physics are a pain in North America.
- redserk 2y ago
  I usually get a bit above 20% when I get home to when I leave in the morning. My vehicle has about a 70kW battery and ~300mi range. I have relied on this setup for multiple years without stress.
throwaway5959 2y ago
It’s simple, they’re just stubborn. Almost no one in the US has a commute of more than 40 miles a day, and most Americans own their own place. If EVs had a 600 mile range and could charge in fifteen minutes, they’d be saying they need to have a 900 mile range and charge in five minutes. For EVs to truly win in the US, we’re going to have to wait for boomers to die, or stop driving. Edit: downvote me boomers. Do it.
- lotsofpulp 2y ago
  …or, an EV has yet to be proven to be comparable to the cost per mile (including depreciation) of a hybrid, especially a plug in hybrid, for the driving patterns of most Americans. It is going to be a while until a brand has the trust per dollar that Prius/camry/corolla/rav 4 hybrids and the like do.
  - dalyons 2y ago
    It’s really not. Hybrids are going to be obsolete way faster than you think, given the price and innovation curves of EVs.
    - lotsofpulp 2y ago
      It takes 20 years to build up a track record of 20 year reliability.
      - dalyons 2y ago
        During which they’re going to become irrelevant clinging to out of date technology. Building reliable ICEs is much much harder than EVs, the field is wide open now.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
Flameancer 2y ago
If you have a driveway, I don’t see why you don’t just add the little extra to add a charger at home. That’s actually my plan when I eventually get a UV. Just get a face charge and someone to wire it. Where I’m located at the current rate it should be around $1600 for the charger and the install.
assimpleaspossi 2y ago
This is my thought, too. My wife has the charging concern when I bring up buying a Tesla as her next car. She's worried about running out of juice but she only drives 30 miles round trip to work every day plus maybe a grocery run or a similar trip to relatives. She asks about going on longer range trips and I say that's why our second car would be a hybrid, such as the Prius I have.
Dalewyn 2y ago
>If the worst happens and you need to travel for an emergency, you just need enough juice to get you to a DC fast charger. You’d only be spending 10 minutes charging anyways to carry on. I would place bets that most people do not keep their gas cars filled to 100% in case they need to do that weekly emergency 300-mile drive that everyone seems to have. That's because gas stations are plentiful in most areas and you usually only spend a few minutes refueling. If gas stations are rare and/or the pumps are slow or unreliable, you bet most drivers will keep themselves topped up more often than not.
gigel82 2y ago
I've leased 3 Leafs in the past and have a Niro EV now. Always charged them exclusively from a 110V regular outdoor outlet. Have a 18miles commute roundtrip and never had an issue. I'd get a 220V charger if we didn't have a PITA HOA.
_carbyau_ 2y ago
> most people do not keep their gas cars filled to 100% in case they need to do that weekly emergency 300-mile drive that everyone seems to have The behaviour is caused by "ease of resolution". Low Petrol - 10 minutes to drive to the servo and fill up, almost guaranteed and no more worries. If a long drive, then maybe another stop. Low EV charge - where I live, maybe you can do a quick 10 minutes somewhere and get a long way and while you're travelling find another 10 minute stop etc. But people don't want to add extra "unknowns" - however small - in an emergency. People want certainty. People want "Problem fucking dealt with." Emergencies don't happen often, it really isn't optimal day-to-day behaviour. But sometimes emergencies matter; for themselves, their family, or their friends. So I don't think you'll stop this range anxiety until it is as easy - and well known to be easy - as dinojuice currently is.
rdtsc 2y ago
> I would place bets that most people do not keep their gas cars filled to 100% A sibling comment put it well -ease of resolution. I can drive comfortably with less a 1/4 of a tank either in town or on long trips. I can easily find a gas station, fuel up in 5 min and drive away with a full tank without worrying much about it. I don’t want to think about looking for chargers, or structuring my trips around them. It would just not be fun for me and add extra hassles. That’s just my personal take, of course. One day we’ll have super high capacity batteries, much faster and ubiquitous chargers, and then I will happily buy an EV.
dmuso 2y ago
Access to a driveway means that the first hurdle to own an EV is probably owning a suitable home. EVs will be a less practical option for future generations unless we can fix this broken financial system and inflated assets.
nebula8804 2y ago
>You’d only be spending 10 minutes charging anyways to carry on. I am sorry but NO. EV fans always push this narrative but now finally having experienced it myself by doing day long road trips in Mach-e, Bolt, and Tesla I can clearly say that this is more of a problem than you let on. Maybe if you are on Tesla NACS which is plug in and 3 seconds later it starts but for others you must account for the time it takes to get the charger to start. Even if you are on Tesla, repeating the process of stopping, connecting and then waiting still adds time to the trip. Typically on Non Tesla it involves bringing up the app, waiting for the charger to "negotiate" with the car and then accounting for any failures in communication and restarting the process to compensate. To be fair, Tesla has really perfected this as much as they can but that time is still spent. Repeat this process for every "10 mins" you have to stop and for a long road trip all of a sudden all those minutes end up to 1+ hours. And no typically, 10 mins gets you 300-500 miles of range in a gas car depending on model but 10 mins cannot get anything close to that in any electric car(and thats accounting for ideal conditions like being in the right part of the battery charge curve, no other cars occupying the same block of chargers, etc.) You will spend more minutes despite Tesla being the clear leader in making this experience as painless as possible and in an emergency that could be a dealbreaker.
jjtheblunt 2y ago
agreed. 10 years driver of evs here (california then arizona): 110v wall outlet was more than adequate almost always...not adequate if trying to go super far. the question is what fraction of daily distances driven exceed what overnight recharging can do, I believe.

NegativeK 2y ago

I was charging my car on a 120V, 15A circuit (12A draw to the car) for over a year. I'd use about 8kWh per day with a 20 mile round trip commute + extras; that translated to needing about 5.5 hours of charging. It really was fine, but it was near the limit of what's practical without using a fast charger. Extra trips around town would put me at a deficit, and it'd take a few nights of charging to bring things back up to my set point of 80%. Additionally, I had to think a few days out for when I'd know I'd be doing a bunch of driving to make sure I gave myself enough buffer. Now, having a charging circuit that can put out over 9kW means I can think about it a lot less. But I thoroughly agree with you: a normal mains outlet is often fine, and holiday road trips can be messy.

b112 2y ago
You know, there's a car train between the northern US and further south. Your car goes on one train car, you get to relax in the train. And I know the UK/france tunnel is like this too. Seems like an optimal solution in some respects, if optimized. For example, millions of Canadians travel to Florida each year for the winter, a lot by car. If such a train ran once a day, it would help many with range anxiety for such cases. But imagine if major cities had such trains between them daily? These can still carry commuters without cars, too! And of course, we don't need everyone to be covered by this solution today, because the goal is to keep the transition to electric happening. This would help.
- RandomCitizen12 2y ago
  Looking at prices, the chunnel car shuttle seems to be $200 for a 50 mile trip. If a regular American car was driving this distance it would cost about $10 in gas. I don't see this catching on for links between cities.
  - pxndxx 2y ago
    the chunnel goes _under the sea_ for 30 miles.
    - RandomCitizen12 2y ago
      Yes. But most of the cost of the ticket will be operating expenses for the train and associated service. The cost of building under a body of water, which is large, does not make most of the ticket price difference.
      - Symbiote 2y ago
        The cost of the Channel Tunnel (by car) is determined by what the market will sustain: the only alternative to move a vehicle is a ferry. The train is a bit faster. A more realistic comparison is something like Villach in Austria to Edirne in Turkey, which is 1400km by road, and €259 one-way for a car plus €149 for one person (https://www.seat61.com/motorail-trains.htm https://www.seat61.com/motorail-trains.htm).
        RandomCitizen12 2y ago
        For comparison, math for the Villach to Edirne trip comes up with USD 158 in gas for the average US car mileage and gas price for 1400km, versus USD 443 for the car + person tickets.
        abenga 2y ago
        I'd gladly pay 300 dollars not to drive 1400km. Once or twice a year, I drive 320km, and I think about twice that (to and fro) is the limit of what I am reasonably willing to drive over a couple of days.
bryanlarsen 2y ago
> it'd take a few nights of charging to bring things back up to my set point of 80% But is that an issue? As long as you always have enough juice to get to a fast charger, and you can always get back to 80% by Friday morning, isn't that enough? Sure, it's nice to have a 9kW charger, and I'm glad I do. But if I would have been forced to pay $5K to upgrade my mains connection I would likely have just kept the $5K and charged on 120V.
- jdeibele 2y ago
  I've been doing 120V for just over a year with the Chevrolet portable charging cable. It's mostly been fine, the main issue is that it stops working every so often and has to be unplugged and plugged back in. My Bolt lets me say that the circuit is dedicated to it at home and pulls 12 amps instead of the 8 amps it would pull anywhere else. It's trying to make sure it doesn't overload the circuit. We are moving to a newer home and I already have the 240V charger installed there. Looking forward to 25-30 miles of range per hour (running at 32A normally but have a dedicated 60A circuit) instead of the 3 I'm getting now. At this house, the 200A panel is full so I would have had to add another panel.
  - malfist 2y ago
    Emporia makes a load balancing charger. You hook an anmeter around the mains and it can pull anything less than the max the box can handle. My 200 service was also "full" but when monitoring the energy, we rarely pull above 40 amps. We'd only hit 200 if the emergency heat was running at max for both HVACs, the oven was on, the water heater was going and the dryer was running. Pretty hard to do by accident, nigh impossible if you think about it
- NegativeK 2y ago
  I probably would've stuck with 120V charging if I didn't also want the 240V outlet for machine tools/etc in my garage. And like you, I wouldn't've paid to upgrade the panel if that was necessary. Fortunately there was capacity.
LinAGKar 2y ago
> that translated to needing about 5.5 hours of charging How much time do you have available for charging? I'd have thought you'd spend a lot more than 6 hours a day at home. And chargers at work would allow charging the car near constantly when it's not being driven (other than days when you travel elsewhere), so I think that's an important part of transitioning to EVs.
eurleif 2y ago
Your daily travel was around half of the average American's[0], and as you said, that was near the limit of what's practical. It follows that for the average American, a normal outlet is not fine. [0] https://www.axios.com/2024/03/24/average-commute-distance-us-map https://www.axios.com/2024/03/24/average-commute-distance-us...
- SoftTalker 2y ago
  But using two outlets, on opposite phases, would give you double the voltage. Might be too much to expect people to identify two suitable outlets and have a “Y”extension lead that would bring them together.
  - giantg2 2y ago
    Somewhere a copy of the NEC is bursting into flames. You'd be better of installing a new circuit with proper equiptment. Most homes would be able to at least accommodate a 20amp 220v socket, which takes about 40% of the charging time of a regular socket (15amp 110).
    - amluto 2y ago
      OTOH I see no fundamental reason that one couldn’t build an EVSE that connected to two different outlets and drew from both of them. Two branch circuits supplying the same device is not especially rare.
      - giantg2 2y ago
        I've never seen that. With the right protection circuits it could work safely. However, most garages seem to only have one branch anyways, so might as well add a 20amp+ 220v branch.
      - toast0 2y ago
        In a (large, recently constructed) garage, it seems likely that you've got multiple circuits with outlets. If you've got multiple outside outlets, they're probably all on the same circuit. If the hots are the same phase, I don't know if there's a way to determine if they're behind the same breaker or not. If the hots are on different phases, you need to return to each neutral or the gcfi that's likely to be present on an outdoor outlet will trip.
Dylan16807 2y ago
> near the limit of what's practical without using a fast charger "fast charger" usually means one of those fancy DC systems, not just a bigger outlet.
- MengerSponge 2y ago
  Confusingly, Level 2 charging can refer both to 220V AC or fast DC charging. Context is key, but home level 2 (AC) can get up to about 20kW, while DC Level 2 easily delivers up to 400kW. "Fast charger" in the context of home charging means 20-50A at 220V, which is enough to fully charge the battery in a few hours. Basically, you can roll in on fumes at midnight, plug in and go to sleep, and wake up and leave the next morning with a full tank.
  - sokoloff 2y ago
    I’ve always heard DC Fast Charging called “DC Fast Charging” or “Level 3”. I don’t think I’ve ever heard it called Level 2.
    - MengerSponge 2y ago
      Because if you use the wrong terminology it's more clear, but SAE J1772 specifies two levels of DC fast charging.
  - recursive 2y ago
    No one calls DC fast-charging "level 2". It's a mistake. Let's not confuse the issue by starting now.
    - MengerSponge 2y ago
      I dunno what you want to happen here: SAE J1772 refers to level 1 and level 2 DC fast charging. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772
      - 2y ago
verisimi 2y ago
> it was near the limit of what's practical without using a fast charger > I had to think a few days out for when I'd know I'd be doing a bunch of driving to make sure I gave myself enough buffer Its hard to accept a future that involves this sort of compromise and introducing new stresses for an inferior solution.
- Dylan16807 2y ago
  You have to think about gas too, you're just used to it. And the future has enough fast chargers that it's hard to be caught out no matter where you go. The future also involves more high power plugs, which would have removed the issue you quoted. If you would mind that issue more than they did, then you just need to get a plug installed when you buy an EV.
  - verisimi 2y ago
    Its a different order of magnitude. I don't need to think about fuel every day, and I don't have to consider my week if I have a busy day.
    - Dylan16807 2y ago
      All of that gets removed if you have a bigger outlet. There are some people that mind that very little and won't bother to get the upgrade, but judging EVs in general based on the 120-volt situation is like judging pasta in general based on cups of instant ramen.
    - SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago
      People who walk out every morning to an EV fully charged up on a home L2 charger (the "high power plugs" mentioned above) very seldom have to think about charge, and definitely not "every day". How would you feel if your car automatically had a full tank of gas every morning? Even when near empty the night before. It's described as the complete opposite of "worry every day".
      - 2y ago
playa1 2y ago
I had been doing a similar 1kw trickle charging setup for 3 years. While it was sufficient for daily driving we would go on longer drives regularly, mostly on weekends so 2-4 times a month. It was annoying mental overhead to have to plan out the charging so often. Three months ago we ran 240v to the garage and now have 12kw charging at home. It has been a game changer! We don’t have to think or plan around the charging. Every morning the car is at 75% (the limit we have set). And if we are going on a long drive I can move it to 90% or 100%. I really regret not getting the level 2 charger years ago when we got our first EV.
Fatnino 2y ago
An acquaintance of mine lost his lease on house he was renting and temporarily moved his family out of state while looking for a new place here. As you can imagine, this turned into many months of them being gone. He left his Chevy Bolt parked across the street from his former residence (or rather, across from the construction site that replaced it). Eventually, the car got impounded and I got roped in to go bail it out and bring it to another friend of ours who had space to store it legally. When I got the car, the battery was almost completely discharged. When dropped off the car I don't actually know how it was still moving. We plugged it in to a regual home wall outlet be cause that's all there was. The car computer said it would take SIXTY HOURS to charge to full. That's two and a half DAYS.
- r00fus 2y ago
  Completely unsurprised. Just consider the energy density of gasoline or a modern EV battery. The fact remains that a full EV battery can really take you a long ways.
  - Fatnino 2y ago
    It really can't. A fully charge bolt (when it's still new) will take you about 250 miles. You won't find a gas car that can't go 300 miles on a tank. I currently have an old prius (which is admittedly far above average compared to regular cars) and it can go 450 miles on a tank. And that tank gets filled up faster than the time it takes to walk inside and buy a bag of chips.
- Kirby64 2y ago
  Very normal. You have to consider how long you need to 'replenish' the the range you used from your daily driving. Assuming you plug in when you get home, you likely have ~10 hours of charging time. Standard wall outlet is 12A continous, so 1440W. Most 120V is relatively 'inefficient' due to needing to run all the cooling infrastructure which tends to be a fixed overhead. A good number is roughly 4 miles of range per hour of charge on a 120V standard outlet for most normal vehicles (Bolt, Model 3, Ioniq 5, etc) So, as long as you're driving less than 40 miles per day, 120V outlet will always keep you topped up. If you charge longer (i.e., plug in at 8PM, leave at 7AM) then the numbers look even better. Some considerations for cold climate and whatnot, but 40 miles in a day is a good commute.
m463 2y ago
I did the same thing. My daily use averaged 24 miles and 110v worked just fine. Since then, batteries have gotten bigger, I have a 220v charger than can easily fill the large battery overnight with cheaper power, many parking garages have chargers, and high speed fast chargers have become commonplace. I kind of wonder if the people purchasing cars for these theoretical events have a first aid kit in their car, emergency food in the house, or savings for a few months out of work. I think getting a older big gas SUV with plenty of storage space is a good backup. You can haul things too big or dirty for your EV, use gasoline when electricity for some reason doesn't work, and haul around a big family visiting from out-of-town. You can also lend it to the people who don't understand EVs.

delecti 2y ago

Yes, definitely agreed. My wife and I haven't ever used a public charger with just a 120V outlet in our garage, and I suspect that would apply to many other people as well. For a great many more, a 240V charger is easily installable in any garage or driveway and dramatically increases how much you can charge overnight. That's obviously not going to work for everyone, but between the two of them it drastically reduces the number of charging stations needed in suburban areas.

piquadrat 2y ago

One drawback of charging on an 120v (or 230v) outlet is efficiency. While charging, the energy consumption of an electric car can easily reach 300-400 watts. When you're only charging with 1800-2400 watts, that's a sizeable amount of energy that never reaches the battery. With a dedicated level 2 charger, you can charge with 10+ kW, making the percentage that is lost in the electronics of the vehicle much smaller.

bonzini 2y ago
That doesn't match my experience. At 9-10A (2100W) the efficiency is way above 90%, meaning the consumption of the rectifier inside the car is more in the 100-150W range.
redserk 2y ago
I agree that it isn’t the most efficient manner, this is not an insurmountable issue for the vast majority of people. The cost will still be well under half the price of gas for most people driving electric sedans and crossovers. Yes, those living in the Bay Area with a Hummer EV will find the economics problematic but this solution is fine for the vast majority of other situations throughout the US.
mindslight 2y ago
> While charging, the energy consumption of an electric car can easily reach 300-400 watts This is the first I'm hearing of this. Is this for real? Six modern desktop PCs worth of power, doing what? And that draw only occurs while charging, so it goes away when the car is "off"? Is this for heating the battery when it's cold? I'm not trying to jump on you, I'm just seriously surprised.
- piquadrat 2y ago
  My source is an article from the ADAC, a German automobile association. https://www.adac.de/rund-ums-fahrzeug/elektromobilitaet/laden/ladeverluste-elektroauto-studie/ https://www.adac.de/rund-ums-fahrzeug/elektromobilitaet/lade... They say 100-300W for the onboard electronics, and 15-25% total loss when using a wall socket (other losers contribute as well, e.g. cables that weren't originally meant to run at peak current for hours on time).

johnnyanmac 2y ago

> I would hope the vast majority of Americans who have access to a driveway will be able to find a block of time for this. Given housing costs, that assumption of access isn't a sound one. And Apartments from what I've seen have maybe 5 total charging stations for every few hundred cars? >Fortunately this isn’t a problem in the vast majority places today and I hope continued investment in fast charging networks ensures this remains a limited problem. well, not today. If the adoption is aggressive this can and will quickly be an issue in urban areas.

johnea 2y ago
In the US, ~70% of people live in single family houses. Most people already have an EV "gas station" at home...
- johnnyanmac 2y ago
  I'd want to see a breakdown of that by demographic. I don't think many boomers are itching to switch to FEV as of now.

js2 2y ago

Just to put some numbers on it. A standard outlet is rated for 1440 watts under continuous load (1800 * 80% per NEC) or 1.44 kWh. A Tesla Model 3 travels around 4 miles per kWh. So each hour of charging provides between 5-6 miles of range. Installing a 240V/30A "dryer" outlet would allow charging about 4X faster. Personally, we own a Chevy Volt and get about 3.5 miles per kWh out of it. I installed a 240V/30A outlet in our garage, but the Volt's max recharging rate is 4 kWh. Still that gives us 14 miles/hour.

SoftTalker 2y ago
And in a gas car you get 300-400 miles of range or more in a 5-minute fuel stop. That’s the inconvenience they needs to be largely overcome.
- SirSourdough 2y ago
  As others mention it really depends on your use case. If you can charge at home (ideally at 240v), and you don’t drive more than the range of your vehicle in a day regularly, it’s gas that has an inconvenience to overcome. I don’t have a gas pump at my house. If you are an Uber driver and you do 2-3x the range every day, it’s a different story. But if you can charge for free - which isn’t hugely uncommon currently - you can save a lot of money on gas with an EV, so there are tradeoffs.
  - zdragnar 2y ago
    The daily drive isn't what people are thinking about when charging time is brought up. They're thinking about visiting family, or short day trip vacations, or longer hauls through very rural areas. Or, they live in an apartment complex that doesn't let them run extension cords out to their cars or have charging stations for everyone yet (though admittedly this is only a matter of time).
    - throwaway4220 2y ago
      Anecdotally I just went on a 200 mile trip. Had to fast charge once but I was able to fully charge at my destination with a 110 volt outlet and a long extension cable. Turns out I like to lounge for about 16 hours a day on vacation. Of course I rented a Tesla for this trip and at home I can’t charge because I live in a condo. So it’s tradeoffs all the way down in life

bdcravens 2y ago

I keep a 110v charger in my car for emergencies (especially since my car can charge others in a pinch), but it wasn't that hard to install a 220 in my garage (of course Texas is a bit more lax when it comes to doing that kind of work without a license, though I was pretty meticulous about following code). I didn't buy a super expensive charger, and the most expensive part was the Romex (it was when copper was pricier), and overall it cost me about the price of a basic gas grill.

giantg2 2y ago

"A standard wall outlet will charge a car perfectly fine for your average driver assuming you can park the car for several hours." This could be a problem in the future though. As the newer chemistry for batteries increases energy density, it would demand more power or time assuming one still drains the battery a sufficient amount to reduce cycles in an effort to preserve battery life. Edit: why disagree?

Dylan16807 2y ago
Batteries don't care about cycle count, if "cycle" in this context is every time you switch between charging and discharging. They care about how many amps go in and out, along with disliking being too close to 0% or 100%. Limiting max charge is easier if you have extra range, and so is staying away from empty. Making the battery hold more energy only improves things. Go ahead and charge every night. If you see someone giving "cycle count" as a spec, they mean full cycles. If you charge 10% five times, that's half a full cycle.
- giantg2 2y ago
  I know specs go by full cycles. I was always taught not to shallow charge because each partial charge essentially carried some overhead to it. Sort of like two 10% is not equal to one 20% charge. I guess that's not true anymore since I couldn't find anything on it.
  - Dylan16807 2y ago
    Keep in mind that the battery is doing an extra transition between charge and discharge every time regenerative breaking kicks in.
    - giantg2 2y ago
      Looks like maybe I was thinking of the lead acid battery "formatting" phase. Seems as though lead acid batteries benefit from deep cycles with full charges, while lithium batteries benefit from smaller depth of discharge without going to full.

markus_zhang 2y ago

The biggest issue with real life is that we have to prepare for 5-6 sigma events, and they actually happen quite often. Otherwise the whole insurance industry should die away. I think the biggest hassle is that we need to make sure that each place we spend vacation in has enough EV charging stations. We do go for distances that need intermediate filling/charging quite often (reads once per month perhaps) I never had to worry about that for my gas burning Tucson 2020. Even having to worry about it, having to do research about that is a hassle for ordinary people. We already have too much to worry about. And then there is the issue of charing is way too slow. It may also induce excessive shopping at the charging station -- the most expensive places for drinks and foods. And then there is the issue of long-term (read 2-5 days) power outage in Quebec early springs which occur more often than I want to believe (we just had one last year, and minor outages occur after EACH rain here and there). It does hit gas stations too, there are more gas stations than charging stations anyway. And what benefit does EV give me? I don't care about driving experience. I'm insensitive to gas price jumps. And the cynical me believe that once we have more EVs the businesses would simply double the charging costs. I'll probably switch to an EV eventually, but that's when charging stations are literally everywhere in Canada.

tootie 2y ago
I think realigning expectations ever so slightly can cure a lot of that. The cost of renting a gas car once a year or calling a taxi when you're stranded are comparatively tiny compared to retaining full-time ICEs just in case. I'm a city person so my default is no car and rent/taxi when I need one. My automotive expenditures per month probably nets out around $50 or so and I can handle any exigency.
- markus_zhang 2y ago
  I think "cost" consists of two parts: financial and mental. The financial side is probably negligible, but the mental part could be larger. But everyone has one's own needs so I fully understand your scenario.
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 2y ago
  > The cost of renting a gas car once a year or calling a taxi when you're stranded are comparatively tiny compared to retaining full-time ICEs just in case That is because a lot of people have ICE cars already. If there were a lot of people like you, I suspect rentals would get more expensive. In addition, because of the likelihood of correlation (for example a blizzard that knows out power) you may have a bunch of people also wanting to rent he ICEs at the same time making them unavailable for you.

violet13 2y ago

> Anecdotally, in conversations with other drivers, it seems that far too many people overestimate their driving habits. Or conversely, folks who are making this argument underestimate the flexibility people want out of a car. If all you factor in is the average daily work commute, then most car owners don't need a car to begin with - even in the US. There's usually some public transport, or work-provided transportation, or opportunities to carpool with a neighbor. Not glamorous, but enough to get you through your average day. The car culture has very little to do with averages. And for what it's worth, it's the same for most other goods, from computers to kitchen appliances. I mean, how many techies need a kitchen in their home to begin with?

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> folks who are making this argument underestimate the flexibility people want out of a car It’s anxiety. I took a parent’s EV to Sonoma and back (100 mi each way + detours + driving around Sonoma) and stopped once for a 5-minute fast charge on the way back. The battery got to a low of 5%, but that was expected. Unbeknownst to me, my father was checking the battery level remotely and freaking out that it would get that low. Let me remind you, this is in the Bay Area. There is no deficit of public chargers here. Another: I had a mid-forties friend visit me in Wyoming. I have a gas Subaru. Its fuel level getting to quarter full—good for at least 100 miles—freaked them out. To go to the grocery store. Two miles away.
- WildGreenLeave 2y ago
  I think this is partly because there is not really an alternative once you run out. Getting a jerrycan of gas from a gasstation is possible, a reasonable expectation can be made that if that happens a good samaritan will help you. Or a friend can drop by with one. The same thing cannot be said about electric cars, unless you have a good friend with a fuel generator. Even then you still have to wait for it to charge. More likely you will be towed, at least in The Netherlands they will tow you to the next parking place. If you are lucky it will be one with a charger, if you are unlucky you are once again on your own.

MisterBastahrd 2y ago

I won't buy a car that I can't adequately evacuate in. This means 700 miles with a 10 minute stop for gas / restroom. I don't care about personal emergencies. I care about local emergencies. It only sounds unreasonable until you've had to do it multiple times.

speedgoose 2y ago
If you need to evacuate 1000km as fast as possible without stopping, bring water and food and be prepared to die in a massive traffic jam. Or in the post apocalyptique world that will follow. Or maybe you can stop a few more minutes when it happens?
- MisterBastahrd 2y ago
  Did you ever consider that the reason I would prefer a gas engine over electric is because I can quickly refuel a gas tank to be full and be on my way? You aren't doing that when there are lines down the road at each station along the route and you're in an electric car. You're just stranded, because if these are EVs, they will either take forever to charge or you're going to make a dozen supercharger stops that will literally eat up HOURS of your time.
  - speedgoose 2y ago
    Your gas station has electric pumps. Doesn't take hours to fast charge.
    - MisterBastahrd 2y ago
      It does when everyone is waiting on "electric pumps" because they've switched to vehicles which are far more inefficient on average at refueling. Try thinking about the situation instead of just coming up with a dumb rebuttal that doesn't make even a tangential amount of sense.
      - 2y ago

overstay8930 2y ago

People overestimate because underestimating means you just wasted 50k+ on something that doesn’t meet your needs. That’s why normal people don’t buy EVs, cars are usually the most expensive thing someone owns outside of real estate and you’re going to have a hard time convincing someone to buy something that is a worse value. It’s why so many people own pickup trucks and large SUVs. People don’t buy vehicles for what they need 95% of the time, they buy vehicles that will do whatever they want it to do 100% of the time.

adolph 2y ago
Which is an interesting parallel to Taleb's "The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dictatorship of the Small Minority." Essentially one's own fringe preferences dictate the design requirements of something that doesn't utilize that preference a significant amount of time. https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dictatorship-of-the-small-minority-3f1f83ce4e15#.z5ry4bucq https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dict...
- robcohen 2y ago
  Which makes sense, imagine only have shoes that worked on 95% of the floors you walk on. Imagine a fridge that only cools 95% of your food, and it’s a fun surprise when it doesn’t. This is entirely rational, and reminds me of people who can’t understand why everyone doesn’t bike everywhere. It just reeks of solipsism. I own a Tesla, and I have to tell you it’s a massive pain to own an EV and live in an apartment complex. It’s honestly frustrating to the point that I regret getting it. The performance is great, but the interior, significant price drop in the year I’ve owned it, and the constant anxiety about the battery has not made for a pleasant experience. If I could go back I’d get a Mercedes S class that’s 5-7 years old.
  - yurishimo 2y ago
    Gotta admit, after moving to the Netherlands, it’s kinda legit insane how much stuff people will carry on a bike. A new 55” tv is not uncommon! Today I saw a lady with two toddlers and a grocery bag swinging from the handlebars. I take your point though. There are still plenty of delivery trucks and personal autos, even in this biking paradise.

ClassyJacket 2y ago

I certainly find that standard wall outlet charging at 240v is enough for me in Australia, altho the US power system is lower voltage/power. I don't even plug in every night, usually every second night. The problem is that I need to move and I can't afford a house, only an apartment. I may never afford a house. So I'll be relying 100% on public charging. Not because home charging is too slow, but because I will have no access to it.

vel0city 2y ago
The US power system is 240V. Every home has 240V service.

jjav 2y ago

> A standard wall outlet will charge a car perfectly fine for your average driver assuming you can park the car for several hours. "several" doesn't convey the reality here. It's a lot of hours. My partner has an EV and coming back from work it gets plugged in and by noon next day it is still not charged up to what it was before going to work the day before. It kind of works because here they only need to go to work twice a week and not on consecutive days, but on rare occasions when consecutive days are needed it requires a trip to a commercial charger. > You’d only be spending 10 minutes charging anyways to carry on. No. They drive to whole foods and spend an hour or so waiting around to charge it up enough to get to work and back (not 100%). It takes a lot of committment and careful planning to drive an EV. For an occasional commute like here, it's mostly ok.

_fizz_buzz_ 2y ago
> It's a lot of hours. My partner has an EV and coming back from work it gets plugged in and by noon next day it is still not charged up to what it was before going to work the day before. What kind of outlet are we talking about here. Either this outlet is somehow very limited or the commute is very long.
- jjav 2y ago
  > What kind of outlet are we talking about here. A standard wall outlet, as in the post I was responding to.

to11mtm 2y ago

> Anecdotally, in conversations with other drivers, it seems that far too many people overestimate their driving habits. I mean, yes and no. But there's side effects. Haven't looked at TFA but unless they considered realities of condos/etc (my condo, parking is more like an apartment) that must be considered too. If I don't have a way to charge my car at night I will hold on to an ICE with every fiber of my being, and at this rate unfortunately it's the just about-ish 12 year old 20-25MPG WRX instead of the 2.6 year old 37-45MPG Maverick Hybrid, based on downtime/repair cost if I had to pick one today. As far as 'driving habits' mine vary greatly. However whenever possible I take the Maverick for trips that can be hotshot (my current record is ~830 miles in 14ish hours with 10-15 minute stops along the way as needed.) Honestly with a good side crew I can do it all myself while clearing my mind (i.e. spare cycles while focusing on driving, I think about baggage.) I honestly don't know if I could do the same sort of trip in a current EV even if there were the best charging stations at every stop we went to. Maybe we could? OTOH that's the 'distance' case. Compare to driving up north in MI where stations are few and far between, or worse, the UP where a car accident may cause a many-hour backup. I should note, for my hybrid, my 'cutoff' for Hotshotting, once I am <100 miles till refuel, I get topped fully back off. I know how to mitigate, but how do we deal with the people that can't even handle stop signs and signals?

coretx 2y ago

Also: If you only slow charge, it will _drastically_ increase your battery life span / general health.

pdonis 2y ago

> If the worst happens and you need to travel for an emergency, you just need enough juice to get you to a DC fast charger. You’d only be spending 10 minutes charging anyways to carry on. And if it's an emergency, why would I want to waste 10 minutes charging instead of just going where I need to go right away--since it's an emergency? Arguments like this boil down to "I think you should accept just giving up something you want, for nothing in return." Which ordinary people quite rationally do not see as a deal they should accept.

metadat 2y ago

Cheers an EV on a 120v outlet is extremely slow, over the course of 6-8 hours you may get only 8% or so, at best. It's unclear what experience you've had but the laws of physics are a pain in North America.

redserk 2y ago
I usually get a bit above 20% when I get home to when I leave in the morning. My vehicle has about a 70kW battery and ~300mi range. I have relied on this setup for multiple years without stress.

throwaway5959 2y ago

It’s simple, they’re just stubborn. Almost no one in the US has a commute of more than 40 miles a day, and most Americans own their own place. If EVs had a 600 mile range and could charge in fifteen minutes, they’d be saying they need to have a 900 mile range and charge in five minutes. For EVs to truly win in the US, we’re going to have to wait for boomers to die, or stop driving. Edit: downvote me boomers. Do it.

lotsofpulp 2y ago
…or, an EV has yet to be proven to be comparable to the cost per mile (including depreciation) of a hybrid, especially a plug in hybrid, for the driving patterns of most Americans. It is going to be a while until a brand has the trust per dollar that Prius/camry/corolla/rav 4 hybrids and the like do.
- dalyons 2y ago
  It’s really not. Hybrids are going to be obsolete way faster than you think, given the price and innovation curves of EVs.
  - lotsofpulp 2y ago
    It takes 20 years to build up a track record of 20 year reliability.
    - dalyons 2y ago
      During which they’re going to become irrelevant clinging to out of date technology. Building reliable ICEs is much much harder than EVs, the field is wide open now.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]

Flameancer 2y ago

If you have a driveway, I don’t see why you don’t just add the little extra to add a charger at home. That’s actually my plan when I eventually get a UV. Just get a face charge and someone to wire it. Where I’m located at the current rate it should be around $1600 for the charger and the install.

assimpleaspossi 2y ago

This is my thought, too. My wife has the charging concern when I bring up buying a Tesla as her next car. She's worried about running out of juice but she only drives 30 miles round trip to work every day plus maybe a grocery run or a similar trip to relatives. She asks about going on longer range trips and I say that's why our second car would be a hybrid, such as the Prius I have.

Dalewyn 2y ago

>If the worst happens and you need to travel for an emergency, you just need enough juice to get you to a DC fast charger. You’d only be spending 10 minutes charging anyways to carry on. I would place bets that most people do not keep their gas cars filled to 100% in case they need to do that weekly emergency 300-mile drive that everyone seems to have. That's because gas stations are plentiful in most areas and you usually only spend a few minutes refueling. If gas stations are rare and/or the pumps are slow or unreliable, you bet most drivers will keep themselves topped up more often than not.

gigel82 2y ago

I've leased 3 Leafs in the past and have a Niro EV now. Always charged them exclusively from a 110V regular outdoor outlet. Have a 18miles commute roundtrip and never had an issue. I'd get a 220V charger if we didn't have a PITA HOA.

_carbyau_ 2y ago

> most people do not keep their gas cars filled to 100% in case they need to do that weekly emergency 300-mile drive that everyone seems to have The behaviour is caused by "ease of resolution". Low Petrol - 10 minutes to drive to the servo and fill up, almost guaranteed and no more worries. If a long drive, then maybe another stop. Low EV charge - where I live, maybe you can do a quick 10 minutes somewhere and get a long way and while you're travelling find another 10 minute stop etc. But people don't want to add extra "unknowns" - however small - in an emergency. People want certainty. People want "Problem fucking dealt with." Emergencies don't happen often, it really isn't optimal day-to-day behaviour. But sometimes emergencies matter; for themselves, their family, or their friends. So I don't think you'll stop this range anxiety until it is as easy - and well known to be easy - as dinojuice currently is.

rdtsc 2y ago

> I would place bets that most people do not keep their gas cars filled to 100% A sibling comment put it well -ease of resolution. I can drive comfortably with less a 1/4 of a tank either in town or on long trips. I can easily find a gas station, fuel up in 5 min and drive away with a full tank without worrying much about it. I don’t want to think about looking for chargers, or structuring my trips around them. It would just not be fun for me and add extra hassles. That’s just my personal take, of course. One day we’ll have super high capacity batteries, much faster and ubiquitous chargers, and then I will happily buy an EV.

dmuso 2y ago

Access to a driveway means that the first hurdle to own an EV is probably owning a suitable home. EVs will be a less practical option for future generations unless we can fix this broken financial system and inflated assets.

nebula8804 2y ago

>You’d only be spending 10 minutes charging anyways to carry on. I am sorry but NO. EV fans always push this narrative but now finally having experienced it myself by doing day long road trips in Mach-e, Bolt, and Tesla I can clearly say that this is more of a problem than you let on. Maybe if you are on Tesla NACS which is plug in and 3 seconds later it starts but for others you must account for the time it takes to get the charger to start. Even if you are on Tesla, repeating the process of stopping, connecting and then waiting still adds time to the trip. Typically on Non Tesla it involves bringing up the app, waiting for the charger to "negotiate" with the car and then accounting for any failures in communication and restarting the process to compensate. To be fair, Tesla has really perfected this as much as they can but that time is still spent. Repeat this process for every "10 mins" you have to stop and for a long road trip all of a sudden all those minutes end up to 1+ hours. And no typically, 10 mins gets you 300-500 miles of range in a gas car depending on model but 10 mins cannot get anything close to that in any electric car(and thats accounting for ideal conditions like being in the right part of the battery charge curve, no other cars occupying the same block of chargers, etc.) You will spend more minutes despite Tesla being the clear leader in making this experience as painless as possible and in an emergency that could be a dealbreaker.

jjtheblunt 2y ago

agreed. 10 years driver of evs here (california then arizona): 110v wall outlet was more than adequate almost always...not adequate if trying to go super far. the question is what fraction of daily distances driven exceed what overnight recharging can do, I believe.