43 ms·

From the article it claims charge speed 10x that of lithium and 50,000 cycle lifetime. I don’t know about you but a EV that can go 150 miles and charge to 80%

• _yb2s 2y ago
  I missed the 10x charge speed- that is a killer feature that more than makes up for the reduced range.
  • xaellison 2y ago
    I wonder what that will mean for charging infrastructure that suddenly has to deliver 10x power to enable that. Not sure that sort of charging could be as ubiquitously placed as gas stations
    • gpm 2y ago
      Just have the same batteries in the charging station to smooth out power usage? Seems a lot cheaper and operationally less complex than a gas station.
      • chabons 2y ago
        This assumes that the same number of vehicles use the charging station. Lower charge times means potentially higher steady-state throughput.
        • Dylan16807 2y ago
          Higher steady-state is mostly a good thing. You need to bulk up the power lines, but you're making good use of them and have lots of money to spend on them.
          • LoganDark 2y ago
            Having lots of money doesn't mean spending lots of money. Budgets often get cut for no good reason.
            • Dylan16807 2y ago
              Okay, I mean I'm aware of that perfectly generic information but "sometimes management sucks" doesn't impact a feasibility analysis much. And this hypothetical station was already willing to spend on a lot on batteries.
              • LoganDark 2y ago
                Just because they want to spend on batteries doesn't necessarily mean they can spend on power lines. Most of the time you can't just pay the power company to bulk up your lines, just like you can't always pay an ISP to install a faster connection, even if they provide that service to another area.
                • Dylan16807 2y ago
                  Okay but that's a completely different objection from the one in your previous comment. And yes it's not always possible but it'll be available in enough places. If a particular station can't get better lines, then as someone else said they could have fewer charging spots. High load per spot still works out well for them, because they can save space.
      • mech987876 2y ago
        I had an engineering colleague who previously worked at a company that reconditioned Prius batteries. It involved cycling powe in and out of the battery several times. Where did all that power come from? Another battery.
      • EasyMark 2y ago
        i doubt if the batteries can handle the type of surge output as the superchargers require.
        • Dylan16807 2y ago
          If the car batteries can handle some amount of power, batteries on the other side can handle the same amount. Especially because the station would want to have multiple cars worth of energy stored, which means the load is divided among more cells and they don't have to work nearly as hard.
        • pornel 2y ago
          They easily do. Discharge rates are typically higher than charge rates. For stationary batteries it's all easier due to being able to have larger, more parallel batteries, and better cooling when weight is not a concern. Battery-backed charging stations are already common, because it allows use of cheaper grid interconnection, and use of cheaper off-peak or renewable energy.
      • adverbly 2y ago
        Those would need to get cycled a lot(many times per day). You might want one for your house if you wanted to charge quickly at home, but for charging stations, I think more realistically they'd have 10x less charging spots if each person was only there 1/10th the time. So the peak would be the same, but if there were too many customers then sort of like at a busy gas station people would be waiting for a spot rather than waiting for charging to complete.
        • happyopossum 2y ago
          > Those would need to get cycled a lot(many times per day). Fortunately these batteries have "an estimated lifespan of 50,000 cycles". Also, since there aren't super-dangerous elements in them, they should be much easier and cleaner to recycle/renew - especially with the giant recharge-station-scale ones' we're talking about, which could be designed specifically for that.
    • jacob019 2y ago
      Indeed the charging cables are already massive. Just need some superconducting cables.
      • Dylan16807 2y ago
        Liquid cooled cables aren't too bad. Megawatt charging system is big but doesn't seem unreasonable, and that gives you 5x the amps. In two minutes it can add 80kWh to an 800 volt battery, and the max voltage is 1250. https://resources.news.e.abb.com/images/2023/5/12/0/Next_generation_electric_Scania_truck_completes_first_charging_test_with_pilot_megawatt_charging_system_from_ABB.jpg https://resources.news.e.abb.com/images/2023/5/12/0/Next_gen... https://www.engineerlive.com/sites/engineerlive/files/ITM.1123.p.30-31%20-%20Ad%20Ed%20Staubli-MCS-connector-front-real.jpg https://www.engineerlive.com/sites/engineerlive/files/ITM.11...
    • ItCouldBeWorse 2y ago
      It just means the infrastructure gets the same cheap batteries as buffer.
    • LoganDark 2y ago
      Even today's charging can be severely lacking, imho
    • mschuster91 2y ago
      Not that much, grids can and do deal with highly variable loads all the time, as all the heavy machinery involved in traditional power generation (=generators, gearboxes, axles, turbines) has a lot of inertia that buffers sudden changes. However, as more and more generation capacity shifts to renewable sources that by design have very small (wind) to zero (solar) inertia, there will be a requirement to build out frequency stabilizer units like the Tesla unit in Hornsdale, Australia [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornsdale_Power_Reserve https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornsdale_Power_Reserve
      • Dylan16807 2y ago
        Advanced solar and wind inverters can also push back on grid changes to mimic inertia. Also I'd say the inertia in a normal wind turbine doesn't count because it's not tied into the grid frequency.
      • crote 2y ago
        Aren't batteries quite limited in their ability to provide synthetic inertia? Sure, they can respond on a second or tenth-of-second scale, but they don't provide the kind of instantaneous inertia you get from spinning rust. Inverters aren't exactly designed to just eat power surges, they'll instantly disconnect instead. That's why the UK grid has been building some "high-inertia synchronous compensators", and a 2019 outage showed that it's urgently needed.
        • CorrectHorseBat 2y ago
          Can't you make them behave however you want with sub millisecond reaction time?
    • creativeSlumber 2y ago
      Unless they also use these batteries to store the charge. The batteries an be charged slowly like a capacitor.
  • jseutter 2y ago
    Agreed, I just learned that the next formula for Formula E will eventually have charging stops. The spec will allow 5kwh of charge in 30 seconds, which is 10% SoC in their case. Pretty cool.
  • LargeWu 2y ago
    Sounds like their current strategy is stationary-only, i.e. not for use in vehicles, owing to the lower power density of sodium batteries. But that does not mean it's a problem that won't be solved in the future.
  • ClassyJacket 2y ago
    My Model 3 already charges at 180kw. Are they saying cars built with these batteries will charge at 1.8Mw? How are they going to build charging infrastructure at that level?
    • TaylorAlexander 2y ago
      https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40224937 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40224937
  • donny2018 2y ago
    To take advantage of that charging speed, you have to supply 10x of charging power though. 10x of charging speed of Li-ion would be in megawatts per single charging device.
• UncleOxidant 2y ago
  > But, I am guessing grid frequency regulation use cases are going to make these too expensive for a car for a long time. Not sure I follow here. Can you elaborate? Are you saying the the demand for sodium batteries for power grid backup is going to be high vs supply such that they're not going to make it into cars anytime soon? Isn't one of the Chinese EV makers starting to use sodium batteries?
  • alemanek 2y ago
    Yeah I am thinking grid applications will take up most of the available supply for the next few years. That charge/discharge speed makes it perfect for helping to stabilize the grid, frequency regulation, as well as for replacing peaker plants. Lithium batteries are already being used for these two applications but I think these sodium batteries would be better.
    • jacob019 2y ago
      Depends on the production economics, how fast they scale, and what issues are discovered in real world use. There is some risk for everyone with new tech.
    • xbmcuser 2y ago
      Large scale grid project are planned years in advance so unlikely to eat up all the production as factories will need a constant demand source to clear inventory and have regular cash flow so I think home batteries like Tesla powerwall are going to have big boom soon specially as people getting paid less and less for their home solar output from the grid. If I am not wrong chinese largest battery manufacturers have started looking at home batteries as some car manufacturers were complaining about not enough demand for ev.
• kolinko 2y ago
  The main blocker with ev charge speeds now is the charging station capacity though, no? Having said that - if we can get cheap and safe batteries installed within the charging stations, this would make for an awesome improvement
  • ggreer 2y ago
    Most charging stations already have lithium batteries installed as a buffer for the grid, and those batteries tend to be safer designs since there's no weight/density penalty for fixed infrastructure. Sodium batteries would just make charging stations cheaper to build. A lot of people tend to think of the ideal charging station as a gas station, where lots of cars go to quickly add range. But gas stations have large capacity because of their disadvantages. Ideally if they were safe, cheap, and compact, wouldn't you want gas stations everywhere? I'd love to have a gas station at home, in every parking garage, and at every scenic viewpoint on the road. The reason we don't have that is because gas stations emit toxic vapors and have giant tanks of combustible liquid. They need tanker trucks to regularly refuel them. Charging stations don't have those problems, which is why you can make them much smaller and put them almost anywhere. You don't even need a grid connection. Solar + batteries works in places where land is cheap.
• supercheetah 2y ago
  Two minutes is about the amount of time it takes to fill my ICE car, so yeah, that'd be nice.
  • jdewerd 2y ago
    Yeah but do you have a gas station at home so it's "always full"? That's really nice ;)
    • rossjudson 2y ago
      "You mean I can't just drive the car? I need to think about how to find fuel for it every couple of days? And then I have to drive there and hope nothing explodes?"
    • jtriangle 2y ago
      You certainly can, provided you have a truck, and a DOT certified fuel trailer, and a transfer pump. That system also allows you to participate in oil futures as an end user, not to mention it lets you keep your generator up and running for a very long time. Downside is, modern e10 gasoline tends to adsorb water from the air over time, so fuel isn't stable long term. Most guys doing this are running diesel cars/gensets for that reason. The model is, go to a truck depot with a 300 gallon trailer, fill up trailer and truck, park the trailer at home. Then fuel the truck off the trailer until it needs to be filled again, repeat. Do understand that, you can get a larger tank, but anything over 1000 gallons requires a placard/permit to haul around. That's in a single tank, so, in theory, a legal length 5th wheel trailer could have multiple tanks under that and be compliant. If you want the tanks attached to a vehicle itself, the maximum size is 150 gallons, hence why semi trucks have multiple fuel tanks that are smaller than that. Really the only difficulty is finding a place nearby that is willing to sell that much fuel to an individual.
      • eternityforest 2y ago
        Is running a generator for long periods cost effective? If someone lived where the grid wasn't reliable, and could make the initial investment for all this fuel storage stuff, why not do solar?
• silisili 2y ago
  Compelling to me also, as a person who has shied away from EVs because of charging time annoyances. I'd gladly trade the mileage for charging speed every time. Getting excited for what's to come.
  • jdewerd 2y ago
    Is charge time important because you can't install a L2 charger at home / apartment to keep it "always charged" or because your usage pattern is too heavy duty for a 30 minute break every 200-300mi? If it's just the former, the slow steady march of EV mindshare might solve your needs before the "L4" super-fast-charging battery. I am starting to see L2 chargers pop up in apartment parking lots, for example. IMO, "always charged" is significantly more convenient than short stops at a station, so it would still be desirable in a world where "L4" batteries and stations were common.
    • silisili 2y ago
      The latter, actually. I'd much prefer to stop for five minutes every 2 hours than 30 minutes every 4 hours.
      • pornel 2y ago
        The current state of the art is somewhere in between with 18 minutes per ~3 hours. It even helps to split charging into shorter sessions (2x 9 minutes), because batteries charge fastest when they're about 25% full. Keep in mind that EVs charge unattended, so you only spend a minute plugging in, and can leave to get a coffee, etc.
        • silisili 2y ago
          How 'guaranteed' is that rate? I don't keep up with it like I probably should, but seem to often read that some chargers are outdated, and sometimes you have to 'share' if somebody else is charging nearby?
          • 2y ago
• IshKebab 2y ago
  2 mins to charge a 40 kWh battery is 1.2 MW. I can't see that happening any time soon.
  • cogman10 2y ago
    And I just don't think it's needed. You are almost certainly not charging from 0->100%. It's probably more like 10%->90% which gives you 32kW to charge. We currently have 350kW chargers on the market, they'd do that in ~6 minutes. At some point trying to get 2 minutes vs 6 minutes is just silly nit picking.
  • chx 2y ago
    Just install an SMR at every gas station. Problem solved! :P
• elihu 2y ago
  Fast charge speeds make electrified highways a more viable option. There are some projects in Europe using overhead lines (for trucks) or power rails embedded in slots in the road surface (usable by cars or trucks) so that vehicles can recharge while moving. Building a network of electrified highways is expensive though. One way to reduce initial costs is not to electrify the whole length but to have, say, one mile of electrified road per every ten miles of highway. To get unlimited range from that 1:10 ratio, you need the vehicles to have batteries capable of absorbing power 9x faster than the vehicle uses it to maintain highway speeds. I could see EVs having a large lithium ion pack and, if this technology is really that good, a smaller sodium ion battery to act sort of like a capacitor to smooth out intermittent charging. I could also see low-capacity-high-power-density batteries being used in hybrids, though those need to be able to sustain high discharge rates as well as high charge rates, and I don't think the article mentioned discharge rates.
  • dieortin 2y ago
    Charging private vehicles while they move sounds very complicated
    • elihu 2y ago
      This is one way to do it: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/apr/12/worlds-first-electrified-road-for-charging-vehicles-opens-in-sweden https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/apr/12/worlds-f... Overhead cables are simpler and cheaper, but not easily compatible with cars (which would need a comically tall pantograph to connect to the cables). (Induction is a third option, but it's not really viable except in certain special cases because it's way more expensive, can't deliver as much power, and tends to be less energy efficient.) Electrifying highways may sound expensive or complicated, but consider what the alternatives are. We could stick with fossil fuels. The U.S. burns about 4 million barrels of gasoline and about 4 million barrels of diesel a day, most of which is used to push cars and trucks around. That's not simple or cheap, we're just accustomed to the cost. Another option is we switch to EVs and rely on big batteries for range. That kind of works, but battery manufacturing scale isn't there. It's also kind of wasteful to have a substantial portion of the vehicle weight being batteries. It means cars and trucks are heavier than they need to be, and they can haul less cargo. If we could get to the point where, say, someone could drive coast-to-coast without ever having to stop to charge with only 30 or 40 kwh battery, that would be huge. It would reduce EV costs dramatically, it would reduce average vehicle weight, and you might even get better performance. (This wouldn't completely eliminate the need for some long-range vehicles for areas not served by electrified highways, but for most uses it should be fine.)
• robocat 2y ago
  > to 80% again in 2min Needs say 720kW delivery for those two minutes (need higher if counting inefficiency losses). Note that Tesla 's V3 Superchargers provide a maximum of 250kW. I've assumed a 30kWh battery charged to 24kWh (80%), because the spec for a new Nissan Leaf is 59kWh battery for 385km driving range.
  • alemanek 2y ago
    Yeah we are for sure talking about the future here. There are already vehicles capable of handling 350kW chargers. Probably not too crazy to think that could double in the next decade. But I am definitely not expert on this.