61 ms·

I Lost Faith in Kagi

• PUSH_AX 3y ago
  This is honestly a collection of poor takes. It’s also incredibly low stakes stuff. Don’t like the features? Don’t use it…
• lannisterstark 3y ago
  I really, really wish authors used a bit more margin/padding on their websites. "Simple" doesn't have to mean unreadable. A small black text on white background stretching across a full 27" 1440p monitor is pretty brutal to read.
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• koutsie 3y ago
  They lost my faith when they partnered with brave
  • promiseofbeans 3y ago
    Nah the Brave thing got spun up a bit. Kagi just wanted the extra search index data, which isn't even originally from Brave - they acquired it from Cliqz.
  • stuartjohnson12 3y ago
    What's wrong with Brave?
    • tail_exchange 3y ago
      The founder, Brandon Eich, made donations in favour of banning same-sex marriage. I also refuse to use anything from Brave for this reason.
      • bigstrat2003 3y ago
        Brendan Eich also created JavaScript. So you're going to have to pretty much stop using the Internet entirely if you're going to act like his work has anything to do with his political opinions. Personally, I separate a person's work from their political opinions and I think you should too.
        • tail_exchange 3y ago
          Not really. Life doesn't have to be an all-or-nothing dichotomy like this. It is a perfectly fine decision to boycott a product if it is viable to be boycotted, and keep using a product if it's not: using the web without JavaScript is almost impossible, so I'll use it; using the web without Brave is easy, so I won't use it. This is not about separating a person's work from their political views, it's about not giving more power to people you don't want to have more power. If he is going to use money to campaign against LGBT people, then I'll do my best not to give him money, and I think you should too.
          • xigoi 3y ago
            So instead you’ll give money to Google, which totally won’t do shady stuff with it?
            • tail_exchange 3y ago
              My browser of choice is Firefox, not Chrome. As I said, because Google does shady stuff too, I avoid giving them money when possible. It's not that hard to prioritize companies that are aligned with your values. You don't need to start living in a cave or self-flagellate. Just look around to see if there is a suitable alternative.
  • AndroTux 3y ago
    What a stupid statement. You do realize that they partnered with Microsoft Bing for their search results from the very beginning, right? In what world is Brave worse than Microsoft?
  • keyboardJones 3y ago
    I’d rather them lean on Brave than Google or Bing
• bruxis 3y ago
  The era of having startup founders both immediately accessible on social platforms (X/Twitter, Discord, etc.) and overly willing to share their opinions is a messy one. It's hard enough in a small startup to prevent CEO "commentary-driven-development" , let alone have their random thoughts driving investment insight and user acquisition/attrition.
  • dartos 3y ago
    Messy, but valuable imo. It’s good interacting with the real people that make software. IMO, The fact that it’s so detached from the customer is part of why MBAs fit in to leadership so nicely. None of the customers see it coming, because they don’t interact with employees.
  • jsheard 3y ago
    Even without seeing Vlads comments it was already disheartening to see them investing in AI features of questionable utility rather than focusing on the core search product. Trying to make a new search engine is already a difficult enough task without spreading themselves even thinner, and diluting the value of the subscription for those who just want search because they only offer unlimited searches in conjunction with unlimited access to the AI tools.
    • infecto 3y ago
      To me the Orion endeavor was much more concerning. I don't understand how you can sustain a company of a handful of people and work on search, ai, ai+search, orion and making tshirts.
      • BadHumans 3y ago
        Orion came before Kagi Search. If anything, I'm sure Orion users found this Kagi endeavor much more concerning.
    • Dayshine 3y ago
      What do you mean? The unlimited tier didn't come with AI last time I checked. That's the ultimate tier which costs 2.5x as much to pay for the ai?
• Tomte 3y ago
  Subsequently: https://hackers.town/@lori/112255132348604770 https://hackers.town/@lori/112255132348604770
  • smcleod 3y ago
    Sounds like Vlad did a pretty sane, human thing reaching out and offering to discuss. The authors replies seem pretty rude (or at least somewhat aggressive / dismissive). Kagi is Vlads baby and I could imagine he would care and try to explain when he thinks someone has the wrong idea. However to the author - it’s just another service he doesn’t use anymore.
    • WA 3y ago
      Vlad is not discussing, he is lecturing. The author of the blog post seems right. Vlad defends his position "lol email is not PII" repeatedly, despite being obviously and completely wrong. He has no understanding that it doesn't matter that a user could enter fake information. His business collects email addresses, which is a process. Under GDPR, this process must be documented, users must be given their data on request (even if it just contains an email address, but usually it also contains the signup date for example as a proof for their data processing consent) and users must be informed about their rights to correct or delete such data. He comes off totally as the "trust me bro" guy with zero respect for a different perspective and doesn't seem to be interested in changing his (objectively wrong) opinion. It is almost laughable, because "is email PII" has been discussed a million times since the introduction of the GDPR that you must've lived under a rock to dismiss it like Vlad did.
      • eviks 3y ago
        he explicitly said in his email that "Personal emails are PII.", so how is that a defence of his previous position?
        • WA 3y ago
          I re-read again. You are right, he says "personal emails are PII" in this email. In the original post however he dismisses the whole GDPR data request process as "we don't need this, because you can provide fake data". Point is: if the business requests an email address, many people will provide their real email adress and your business needs to document this process under GDPR. I just checked. The signup form doesn't say "please give a FAKE email address", it just says "email address". If a user provides a real email address, Kagi must respond to GDPR Art. 15 requests by providing...that same email adress. Might sound silly, but usually, there is other data associated with this. Usually, at least the timestamp of the signup. If a business is really GDPR compliant, it will offer a download option for stuff like user settings and so on. Or, if the user signed up and later deleted the account, his email should explicitly NOT show up when asking for personal data. See, it is about documenting the process, whether the outcome is "here is your email address you just asked for" or "we don't have any data on you". And Vlad says that this process is irrelevant for Kagi, while it is not.
• Bnichs 3y ago
  I think a lot of this can be ascribed to "startups don't always do the right thing" and you have to learn a lot over time. That's said, I've been a customer for a while and the t-shirt debacle is one of the dumbest things I've seen a small company do. Even if you try and call it marketing cost (no name on the shirt makes that hard), there's no way it was the most efficient use of money for marketing. And setting up infrastructure for it wreaks of "I'm bored with search let's do t-shirts." it completes goes against "do one thing really well" and just seems like a waste. If I were one of those investors and my money got spent on that I'd be really upset.
  • foobarian 3y ago
    On the other hand, I see it as evidence that adtech is not in control of the company. Public companies or companies beholden to ad money would never be able to get away with a stunt like that. Can you imagine Meta sending each of their users a T-shirt? At > $40 RPU they could afford it.
    • ceejayoz 3y ago
      > Can you imagine Meta sending each of their users a T-shirt? If they thought it'd help, absolutely. Facebook has a long history of doling out swag; I've got a free Oculus sitting downstairs.
    • jsnell 3y ago
      The (publicly listed) bank I'm a customer of sent me a pair of oven mitts during the 2008 financial crisis, with an accompanying note that I'd paraphrase as "there have been rumors about our financial stability, and to show how untrue they are we're sending a gift to our customers". It remains the worst customer retention pitch I've ever seen.
• arghwhat 3y ago
  Vlad's interpretation of GDPR is both horribly wrong and very concerning. Personally Identifiable Information includes anything that can be used to uncover a person's identity. An email address is PII, as it can be used to identify which person their data relates to - and they do have data, at the very least a user account and settings but likely also logs. Full names, phone numbers or IP addresses are also PII - if you have a server log with source addresses, that's PII under both GDPR and CCPA. Why you have it, and whether I can take steps to hide my identity is no excuse - you need to follow the legal process for PII under GDPR and CCPA, need have data controllers in place and ways for any individual (registered or not!) to make the appropriate data requests and removal requests as applicable.
  • microtonal 3y ago
    IANAL, but even UUIDs and hashes of user names can fall under the EU, when there is a future possibility of linking it to a user (e.g. through behavior). See e.g. https://law.stackexchange.com/questions/86570/in-gdpr-terms-is-the-hash-of-a-user-id-considered-personal-data https://law.stackexchange.com/questions/86570/in-gdpr-terms-... To determine whether a natural person is identifiable, account should be taken of all the means reasonably likely to be used, such as singling out, either by the controller or by another person to identify the natural person directly or indirectly. https://gdpr-info.eu/recitals/no-26/ https://gdpr-info.eu/recitals/no-26/
  • carlosjobim 3y ago
    An e-mail by itself is not PII, it has to be connected to other personal data. When companies use Stripe for payments, those other personal data are cared for by Stripe. There are people who argue that just the name of a person is PII and they are wrong.
    • ceejayoz 3y ago
      > There are people who argue that just the name of a person is PII and they are wrong. It's very easy for a name to be PII. I'm quite certain mine is unique, due to hyphenating when I got married.
• infecto 3y ago
  I still pay for Kagi for its search but this has kind of been the problem from the beginning with their org. - Search has been a breath of fresh air, I wish they dedicated more time to it. - Orion...is ok? I use it off and on and it is fine but would rather have better search. The premise of the browser is nice but it feels like this could probably be a whole separate company or a purely open source endeavor. It has always been kind of clunky and not something I want to pay for. - AI tools, I get the multiple pivots and I do believe that more recent advancements in ML/AI will make search a better experience but I do wish they had a little more focus. - The t-shirts are weird and made me lose a lot of faith in their org. The way I look at it is instead of making their products better, they flushed a bunch of money down the drain for t-shirts and its offensive to paying customers who are paying because they enjoy the product and want it to become better, they don't want a t-shirt. - I don't care about email, I don't care about other tools, make a great search experience first. Release all of the AI enhancements that you think will make sense, focus, focus, focus. Edit: As I was adding my comment this post flagged and marked dead. Sometimes HN is weird.
  • Sakos 3y ago
    As a "hard-core" Kagi user: 1) I legit can't fathom going back to Google or any other search engine. I don't know what I'll do if they go under. 2) Investing in integrating AI into their search is absolutely vital and I like a lot of what they're doing there 3) Everything else, including the insanity of the t-shirts thing, is a complete waste of time and money. I don't understand what their strategy is if it isn't to set money on fire.
    • jonpurdy 3y ago
      I considered investing a small amount in them when they were raising a round from customers since I loved the search product so much. I too can't imagine going back to anything else, especially now that I have prioritized and blocked domains set up perfectly and added lenses, and this stuff works across desktop and mobile! I've been mildly regretting not investing up until 5 minute ago when I read about spending 1/3 of that on the t-shirt factory.
• PaulHoule 3y ago
  (1) I helped somebody start a hobby shop years ago, he was having trouble getting the bank loans to start it and I asked him if he’d consider raising equity, the next day he asked if I was serious, I told him I would put something in if he found some other investors and that was what happened. He was successful about building a community around the store but not successful at the paperwork so it turned out we had not paid the sales tax for a few years which led the state to put up signs in front of the store, thankfully he was able to scrape up the money. Boy it was a near death experience. (2) If you are working on search in 2024 and you are serious you’re going to be using A.I.
  • MrVandemar 3y ago
    > (2) If you are working on search in 2024 and you are serious you’re going to be using A.I. Pretty sure Marginalia doesn't use AI and to the best of my knowledge Viktor hasn't written about plans to do so. But maybe he's not serious because it sure seems like he's having fun!
    • maleldil 3y ago
      Isn't Marginalia playing a completely different game from Kagi? AFAIK, Marginalia isn't trying to be a general-purpose search engine. PS: Lovely username =)
      • PaulHoule 3y ago
        (1) Marginalia can get away with it because it is searching a smaller collection over which it is easier to manage spam. On the other hand, Matt Cutts became a hero at Google not because he built models for filtering unwanted content but because he figured out how to motivate people to make the labels to train that sort of model. (2) One of the most depressing experiences of my life was reading through the first ten years or so of TREC conferences looking for something useful to improve the search engines I was building. Eventually I found a volume that revealed the handful of useful results that they got in the first ten years (here https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262220736/trec/ https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262220736/trec/) Advances in search quality are rare and come along about once a decade; BM25 was such an advance, on paper. Even though BM25 is in Elasticsearch and a lot of other products very few people are taking advantage of it because they don't want to do the parametric tuning it requires to get superior results. https://sbert.net/ https://sbert.net/ is a similar once-in-decade advance that actually works out of the box with relatively little tuning. It doesn't address all the issues of search and should be integrated with more traditional search, but if you are building a search engine in 2024 you can expect to wait another 10 years for another advance like that. (3) Marginalia particularly interests me because it is a small collection and the problems of search over a small collection are very different from those over a large collection. Gerald Salton started IR research with a deck of punch cards and he thought 80 documents was a lot and with 80 documents you are going to be very concerned about missing relevant documents because you didn't pick the right word. If you have 80,000,000,000 documents you have a very different problem. My take is SBERT and related techniques are particularly effective against small collection problems.
• marcinzm 3y ago
  I wonder if the t-shirts were basically a way to siphon some investor money directly into their own pockets. Or if someone just thought they can do it cheaper and then ran into sunk cost fallacy.
  • bravetraveler 3y ago
    Interesting to think about/play with "why pay for shirts or advertising when we can own it?" Anyway, that's how I felt it happened. Build over buy. Siphoning is an interesting thought It's mind blowing. The earliest internet ventures were selling shirts that somebody else made for huge margins. Why take on the costs in-house, lol. Either way: by making it yourself or dealing with problematic suppliers, it's not worth the hassle. Shirts aren't their business and for those still in it, the margins are razor thin. Madness.
  • rsynnott 3y ago
    I mean, Occam's razor says they were just naive and didn't realise what a huge pain doing stuff like that is. There's a reason that pretty much everyone uses a third party for this.
  • carlosjobim 3y ago
    Yes, of course they created a consumer product that outperforms the main product of the third largest company in the world just as a measure to cheat investors out of a couple of hundred thousand. That's why I won't buy Apple products either, because I'm sure all these iPhones and Macbooks are just a tricky plan to build up investor confidence so that they can cheat them out of money in the future. Useless snark aside, if the Kagi team wanted more "money directly into their own pockets" they could just raise their salaries. If their product is comparable to Google their salaries could be as well.
    • marcinzm 3y ago
      > Useless snark aside, if the Kagi team wanted more "money directly into their own pockets" they could just raise their salaries. If their product is comparable to Google their salaries could be as well. And they'd get the money for those massive salaries from what magic money tree? They're at best barely profitable, revenue is probably around $2m, and they only raised $670k in funding. This isn't a particularly money making enterprise.
• deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
• arghwhat 3y ago
  Aaand, trying to delete your account you get: Error: Server Error The server encountered a temporary error and could not complete your request. Please try again in 30 seconds.
  • catapart 3y ago
    Yikes.
  • Zetobal 3y ago
    [dead]
• Olesya000 3y ago
  [dead]
• malnourish 3y ago
  I use Kagi and will continue to do so until it no longer suits my needs. Frankly, it's still the best search engine. I temporarily subscribed to the AI tier and found the expert assistant genuinely useful. The t-shirt thing is inexplicable.
  • promiseofbeans 3y ago
    Yeah, the AI is good (too expensive IMO) - it's really nice being able to choose between the best models from all the providers.
    • JustFinishedBSG 3y ago
      > too expensive IMO Except it's less expensive than just going for the providers. Which is puzzling to say the least.
• iowahansen 3y ago
  Happy Kagi user here. I'm gladly paying $25 per month because of all their AI features, which work well for me overall. Yes, I could set up API keys on OpenAI, Anthropic, Google and Mistral and get a similar experience for less, but I prefer the convenience of their interface and have clean search results bundled into the experience. I will continue to recommend them and hope that T-Shirt becomes available soon.
  • mediumsmart 3y ago
    Me too and I also happily support Orion and using the RC as a default browser. Kagi is for a subset of the internet and specifically for the part that has content. The good parts of cyberspace if you like. OP seems to be looking for something bigger like someone they can trust to replace Google and save the internet as well. For that search I say good luck sailor (see, that is the good thing in Kagi too - you can downvote ;)
  • thisisjasononhn 3y ago
    Or you could spend $25 a month on a dedicated server and run SearxNG or Yacy? Good lord what an excessive amount of money that is to search the web...
    • theshrike79 3y ago
      If either of those was even close to the quality of Kagi searches, ever would start a new search engine startup
    • talldayo 3y ago
      My thoughts exactly. It's stomach-churning to hear people talk about improving search and privacy for all, before putting it behind a prohibitively expensive (and probably inordinately profitable) subscription. I'll just say the quiet part out-loud: expecting people to pay $10+/month for a search engine is a pipe-dream that rules out 95-98% of the world population. People buy food with that money, they pay rent, they live lives that aren't tethered to a search engine in a meaningful way. Google "wins" their traffic because they don't care, and every bit of friction in-between them and their content is extra work. Kagi's payment-upfront mentality is unrealistic for everyone except the most well-paid Bay Area engineers. That's not to say I don't understand the "avoid ads at all costs" concept. I do oppose to using anti-advertising sentiments as a populist rallying cry so people will line up at your Search SaaS kiosk and pay you whatever you ask for. At this point you really might as well just invest in your own Searx instance, it's plenty cheaper. And you can't even "dropbox comment" me since there have been third-parties providing search for free since before HN was a website.
• reducesuffering 3y ago
  Holy ****, how much drugs does it take for a search startup of 8 people trying to compete with Google to do this: Kagi: "The process from here involves setting up a business entity in Germany, so we can import the t-shirts, store them in a warehouse, connect inventory logistics and ship them all over the world. This includes building a website and connecting it to a back-end database. So, we basically ended up owning a merch production operation end-to-end, just so that we could ensure premium quality of these t-shirts! Now, you may ask, why did we go through all this trouble and allocate nearly a third of our investor-raised funds to produce and freely distribute 20,000 t-shirts? We would not be here without our early adopters (you!) and we deemed it important to pause, reflect and show gratitude. We acknowledge that our journey is a marathon, not a sprint. With a long road ahead, supporting our member community is both rewarding and meaningful. Simply put, wearing the Doggo t-shirt is an incredibly awesome experience." That's a classic stimulant-fueled side quest bender
• 19h 3y ago
  Maybe they needed a German company to receive money from the BND for their user data without the US knowing :-D But in all seriousness, I’ve been a subscriber ever since they started and I’m an ultimate subscriber still, and I’d be sad if they went bankrupt due to mismanagement of the funds.
• andy99 3y ago
  I stopped reading once I realized it was just a rant about their business. Why would I care? Their search is better, it's worth what I pay, if it stops being worth the money I'll stop paying. I could care less how their business is run. If I was investing I might look closer, until then, the maximum I have at risk is the $100 or so it costs a year, which I'm comfortable with. Did I miss something more damning later in the article?
  • someone7x 3y ago
    > Did I miss something more damning later in the article? Yes. The part where the CEO claims that of all the people seeking anonymity that less than 100 of them aren’t criminals o_O Check out the last discord screenshot.
    • andy99 3y ago
      The comment is weird but I think it's out of context. I don't want to defend it but also don't think it particularly affects me as a Kagi user.
  • jjice 3y ago
    I completely agree. I use products because they're useful, not because I'm invested (financially or emotionally) in the business creating said product.
  • tqwhite 3y ago
    [flagged]
    • abhinavk 3y ago
      Try some other AI. Maybe Clause couldn't read text in the screenshots.
      • rsynnott 3y ago
        No, don't try some other AI, actually read things, bloody hell.
• _23sd 3y ago
  I don't find anything outlined in the post particularly bad, but what does bother me is that it seems like Kagi's founder cares a lot about what people think on Discord. Like the author said, most people never touch it and don't know or care what is said on there. If you want to engage with people, why not do it in a more open space? The closed nature of Discord chats means the only way to reference them is through screenshots, and that breeds drama as we're seeing here.
  • promiseofbeans 3y ago
    They do also have a feedback forum that Vlad is very active on: https://kagifeedback.org https://kagifeedback.org
• yreg 3y ago
  I've read the first third of the article and I didn't get what's the author's problem with Kagi. What do they care how many employees Kagi has or how much they spend on t-shirts. Then I scrolled through the rest of it and read the very last screenshot. That one looks pretty bad. > people who really need anonymity are very rare. probably less than a 100 in the entire world. definitely not typical Kagi users > unless they are criminals, in which case we don't care they don't have full anonymity (nor we want them as customers) - Kagi CEO
  • kklimonda 3y ago
    For me, and probably a lot of other people who moved from other search engines, long-term viability of Kagi is important - heck, that's the reason I've decided it's worth paying some money for search. Given that, I'd expect them to be very frugal with their spendings. Burning money on T-shirts, on another Browser, AI "improvements", Kagi Email (wtf? first time I've heard of it) show that they have incredibly startupy mindset, and will end up like every other company that takes VC money - bloated, money focused and deaf to their community.
    • Terretta 3y ago
      Every entrepreneur obsesses about some competitor or some business model. You can see various baubles glint in Vlad's eye. If you are a collection of 10x devs, you can afford to make multiple bets and test for traction. You can sample the Brave waters, or try to head off Proton claiming ownership of privacy first, or get in front of perplexity and phind. Arguably, only products you've shipped can tell you the truth about product market fit. Which is to say, I don't think these "let 1000 flowers bloom" experiments are a bad thing... so long as the core product has no appearance of inattention and never goes backwards in usability or quality while "net promotion" is still part of the growth plan.
  • newzisforsukas 3y ago
    he should run his discord posts through a LLM for an unbiased summary of who he is as a person.
  • 3y ago
• catapart 3y ago
  Yikes. I'm happy to stay away from Kagi, now. I find that platform strategy and that founder's attitude to be hideous, so I appreciate you bringing that to light.
• dantondwa 3y ago
  I personally haven’t lost faith, because search is still the best out there. I’m really happy with it, no complaints and I’m not planning on cancelling. Speaking about their whole business, I think three things left me a negative impression: - the tshirts were really unnecessary. I didn’t understand that. I am not sure the world needed more trash being produced and for sure it was not a good use of their money. - I think AI as a tool has a place in their offering (Quick Answer, Summarizer). I don’t think the Assistant stuff makes sense for a search engine. - the apparent lack of care for privacy that appears in the quotes in the blog posts are not good and I hope Vlad changes his mind and addresses that properly. Everyone needs privacy. Moreover, GDPR is no joke and it should be followed properly.
• seeEllArr 3y ago
  [dead]
• RGamma 3y ago
  This is disheartening to hear... Especially wrt. AI I was hoping for them to use it to classify the web and not aiming for yet another GPT frontend. Or in general developing tools that are a match for the state of the information space that exists today. And whatever the heck is going on with all the other stuff. There's no way one should stretch oneself this thin.
• drizze 3y ago
  I was a Kagi subscriber for about 5 months. I had noticed a slight improvement for random software development related content vs my previous search engine (bing). After cancelling 6 months ago I don't miss Kagi at all. The thing that made me cancel my subscription was one specific interaction. One day I was trying to buy tickets to a podcast tour, the sales for tickets was set to open at a specific time and I was searching for the purchase page at the moment of opening. I frantically searched "$SHOW_NAME $CITY tickets", the first search failed to bring relevant results. I tried "$SHOW_NAME $CITY tickets $YEAR", nothing. I tried many searches for about a minute along these lines and thought maybe their site just wasn't public and I needed a specific link. Then I typed my original "$SHOW_NAME $CITY tickets" query into bing and got the exact correct webpage on the first try. Bought the tickets I wanted and immediately cancelled my subscription to Kagi.
• logro 3y ago
  I don't use Kagi, but this post reads much more like a PR smear campaign than anything else.
• paradite 3y ago
  The real lesson here is that as a founder, don't spend too much time discussing with your users on discord. Gathering feedback good. But getting involved in philosophical discussion or how to run the company looks like a bad idea.
  • freediver 3y ago
    Kagi founder here. I am probably 'guilty' of reading and responding to every comment on discord, our feedback forum and I still respond to support tickets. This does invite trouble but interacting with users of the product I am building is also the only way I know how to do it and is keeping me sane. Not to mention it helps build a great product, as users probably 'built' half of it with feedback. I never thought that talking too much with the customers can be bad but it also may be true that full openness approach becomes a burden at some point and that it would be healthier to separate from it a bit.
    • theothermelissa 3y ago
      I think it's a matter of scale. The principles and instincts that guide us in small-group conversations don't always translate well in large groups -- especially in conversations with an imbalance of emotional investment in the conversation. As the founder, you have a lot more riding on every exchange than any user does (even ardent, investing users). And as your user base grows, both the number of those interactions and their visibility and potential impact on your company is growing. So they're increasing in both number and stakes.
    • paradite 3y ago
      Sometimes they also drive you insane, especially if you are over-attached to them: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33455853 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33455853
    • davidgerard 3y ago
      also not repeatedly emailing when they've already asked you to stop might be worth considering maybe
• BadHumans 3y ago
  > Oh and they own a t-shirt factory. Maybe I'm being pedantic but Kagi doesn't own a T-shirt factory and presenting it as such is a bad faith argument that does make me question the author. They very clearly point out that they worked with a print shop in Serbia to make the shirts.
  • reducesuffering 3y ago
    Idk about "bad faith argument," because even if Kagi doesn't technically own the thing, they literally said "we basically ended up owning a merch production operation end-to-end."
    • BadHumans 3y ago
      I know I'm being pedantic but there is a difference between a factory and a fulfillment service. When I read "they own a T-shirt factory" I interpret it as a place where T-shirts are made which is a much bigger cost than renting a warehouse for fulfillment.
      • asadotzler 3y ago
        owning a merch production operation end-to-end is not owning a fulfillment service. it says production operation end to end. read that again. do you know what "production" means?
        • BadHumans 3y ago
          But they don't own a production operation end to end. They partnered with a print shop, imported the shirts from Serbia, rented space in a warehouse, built a backend service to track it all.
  • JustFinishedBSG 3y ago
    That makes a whole lot more sense considering Vlad is from former Yugoslavia
• tqwhite 3y ago
  [flagged]
  • deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  • ceejayoz 3y ago
    But your AI is... wrong. The article contains clear criticisms of search quality and privacy concerns around a CEO who says things like "people who really need anonymity are very rare. probably elss than a 100 in the entire world."
    • tqwhite 3y ago
      Not sure how that contradicts Claude's conclusions. Also, he's right. I might like anonymity but it is absolutely a 'want', not 'need'.
      • ceejayoz 3y ago
        You asked your AI if there was "any discussion of privacy", and it said no. That's clearly incorrect, and you've now changed the goalpost massively to disagreement personally with that discussion. Here, I asked Claude about it, since you like that approach. > A CEO of a search engine states "people who really need anonymity are very rare. probably less than a 100 in the entire world". Is this concerning from a privacy perspective? > Yes, this statement by the CEO of a search engine company is quite concerning from a privacy perspective for several reasons: > 1. Underestimating the need for anonymity: The claim that only a few people in the world "really need anonymity" is a gross underestimation. There are many legitimate reasons why individuals may need anonymity, such as whistleblowers, journalists, activists, victims of abuse, members of persecuted groups, and even ordinary citizens who value their privacy. > 2. Privacy as a fundamental human right: Privacy is widely recognized as a fundamental human right. By dismissing the need for anonymity, the CEO is essentially disregarding the right to privacy for a large segment of the population. > 3. Potential conflict of interest: As the CEO of a search engine company, which collects and monetizes user data, there is a potential conflict of interest. Downplaying the importance of anonymity and privacy could be seen as a way to justify the company's data collection practices. > 4. Centralization of power: The statement reflects a concerning centralization of power, where a single entity (the search engine company) gets to decide who "really needs anonymity" and who doesn't. This goes against the principles of a free and open internet. > 5. Chilling effect: Such statements from a prominent tech leader could have a chilling effect on individuals who seek anonymity for legitimate reasons, as it may discourage them from exercising their right to privacy. > Overall, this statement by the CEO reflects a concerning lack of understanding or appreciation for the importance of privacy and anonymity in a free and democratic society. It underscores the need for strong privacy protections, decentralized systems, and a broader recognition of the fundamental right to privacy for all individuals, regardless of their specific circumstances. As a follow-up... > How do you feel about the claim "I might like anonymity but it is absolutely a 'want', not 'need'." > I would disagree with the blanket claim that anonymity is absolutely a "want" and not a "need" for everyone. While that may be true for some people, there are many legitimate scenarios where anonymity can be a crucial need, not just a want... > blah blah blah > While anonymity may just be a casual preference for some, denying that it can be a critical need for others is concerning. It dismisses the reality that millions face real threats to their safety, freedom or even lives which anonymity helps protect against. Reducing it to just a "want" is dismissive of these legitimate needs.
• dooglius 3y ago
  To any of this, so what? As long as Kagi makes a good product, and they do, I'll keep paying. As for privacy, my main goal is to protect myself from advertising, which Kagi does excellently.
• throwup238 3y ago
  The whole tshirt thing is straight out of an episode of Silicon Valley or the WUPH episode of The Office. If they go down that direction they should at least make some Kagi branded condoms like Ryan did. > > Not even Google ever printed 20k tshirts to give away for free. This guy is a total Ryan Howard.
• boesboes 3y ago
  Bad faith arguments and personal attacks. 0/10 woulnd't read again
• lijok 3y ago
  Lori seems (from the blog post and the subsequent email chain with the CEO) to be unnecessarily combative and most definitely too emotionally invested in Kagi. You're paying, what, 10, 25 USD - are you getting a good service for it? If not, unsubscribe, if yes, what's the problem? Sounds like they're profitable now, so little risk of the service dissapearing. Unnecessary drama by people who live for drama. My only advice for Vlad would be to not get caught up in it.
  • ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
    For a second there, I thought you were talking about Vlad! Based on the exchanges, Vlad is both extremely combative and unwilling to accept the possibility that he is wrong (which he is here). Being aggressively wrong is no way to go through life. Vlad should be more humble, and open to being wrong, rather than being unnecessarily belligerent.
    • lolinder 3y ago
      I don't get the sense that Vlad is combative, just (over)confident. There are no personal attacks, no aggression, no flaming or flamebait. He just is very confident in his approach and doesn't slow down to listen to criticism. Not the best approach as a founder, but not combative.
      • sumeno 3y ago
        If someone says "please don't email me about this anymore" and you continue to email them you are being combative
        • catapart 3y ago
          This comment, taken as a response to the parent or just as general advice about life, is so entirely bereft of anything objectionable, and is so intrinsically reasonable that its status as 'downvoted' (assumed from the grey text color) is a blemish on HN's commentariat. Put more simply: it takes a weird, broken logic to find fault in the idea that a person who won't stop emailing you, after being told to, isn't "combative".
• joshstrange 3y ago
  I didn’t know about the T-shirt thing and I didn’t know about Brave either. The email stuff is also new to me and I have zero interest in it. At the end of the day, Kagi was a way for me to filter out certain sites and raise/lower others. To be honest I’ve considered turning off the ranking modifications, I often have to scroll to find the business I’m searching for’s website because I’ve up-ranked SO/GitHub/HN and the like. It’s more frustrating than useful. I wish there was a way to up-rank the “definitive website for a brand” when I search. Furthermore, the lack of local results is painful. I just have to go to Google to find the restaurant/business in my town since Kagi seems unable/unwilling to do that. And in that vein, all my !bangs seems to have disappeared which is frustrating, even more so since on mobile it won’t save new ones (last time I tried) and manually going to Google gets redirected to Kagi due to the way their extension (has to?) works. I’ve been paying for a while now and while the AI doesn’t bother me (I don’t use it) the Brave stuff turns me off massively. I don’t know how I’ll decide but I found this post (and the emails the founder sent) very informative.
• go88faxme 3y ago
  That is why I pay duckduckgo which include vpn. I also run my own searxng. I used to subscribe Kagi last year. But after researching I came to the same conclusion as Tomte. Nothing unusual. Just business. DDG already is Kagi with solid business and proven privacy (almost anyway, I know about their Microsoft connection). DDG interface need improvement though.
  • Tomte 3y ago
    Just a small correction: I'm not the article's author, I don't really have a conclusion, and I don't see the mail exchange as quite so damning as most commenters here. Although you should really stop mailing when someone asks you to. I was posting this mostly to get a sense what others think about this, since I have only heard good things about Kagi so far, and thought about subscribing last month (but didn't, yet).
  • Terretta 3y ago
    DDG was certainly privacy oriented, but for various reasons in recent years I was not able to maintain conviction on the alignment of revenue sources / financial incentives with that mission. (It's still the one I set any time I help someone with their machine, unless they're willing to pay, then it's been kagi.) The latest all-in-one privacy subscription may be a course correction to have more revenue directly from those who care about their own privacy, to better align the incentives.
• plutokras 3y ago
  > First of all, as a project, Kagi stretches itself way too thin. "Kagi" isn't just Kagi Search, it's also a whole slew of AI tools, a Mac-only web browser called Orion, and right now they are planning on launching an email service as well. > Like most search now Kagi has chosen to include Instant Answers that are AI generated, which means they're often wrong, as well as a "Universal Summarizer" tool, that again is more of the same old AI bullshit. I agree that Kagi should focus their efforts on delivering the best possible search experience (the image search is horrendously slow at times). But as for the above-mentioned AI tools, I love and use daily. For a short question style query, most of the time, the quick answer is all I need. Universal Summarizer is excellent at summarizing the uncountable YouTube videos that my friends send to me. > At one point someone suggested the idea that searching for suicide-related terms should bring up a helpline, and he rejected that idea because it would be "biased" (I guess towards not wanting people to kill themselves). Why is the so hard to accept for some people that not everything should push a message? If I want to know about a controversial topic, I need results about it, not a lecture. Their responsibility is to serve me good results.
• lolinder 3y ago
  The T-shirt thing is dumb and a waste of funds, but TFA describing it as "owning" a T-shirt factory is an exaggeration that makes me question most of the framing of the rest of the article. They partnered with an existing entity in Serbia, what they did set up was the means to distribute them. Still not a great look and definitely still a waste of funds, but if every criticism takes this same form—take a legitimate criticism and blow it out of proportion with exaggerated language—then it's important to take the article with plenty of salt. My own experience has been that what I get month to month is worth what I pay. If the project is sustainable, then I'll get to enjoy it into the future. If not, I'll get to enjoy it while I can. A search engine isn't like an email provider or even a web browser, there's basically no lock in that makes transitioning later difficult if something changes for the worse.
  • mfiro 3y ago
    > If not, I'll get to enjoy it while I can. Sure, but what happens with your information after that is also very important. What's for me very concerning after reading the article is not a T-Shirt factory or burning budget, but the their attitude towards privacy.
    • lolinder 3y ago
      For my part, I trust that they aren't logging my searches and I don't put any sensitive information into the fields that are persistent. If someone eventually buys Kagi then they'll be able to learn that I block Pinterest and boost MDN, which is way less information than Google collects and stores about me, and it's information I'm happy to divulge to get the service I want.
      • kelnos 3y ago
        > I trust that they aren't logging my searches I did trust that, before reading this article. The founder's attitude toward privacy -- based on what he's said in the Discord -- worries me, and some of that trust has been eroded.
    • jcul 3y ago
• keiferski 3y ago
  I am increasingly convinced that the successor/replacement to Google will not be a more clever, AI-powered search engine, but a hyper-curated collection of links, selected by people who understand what good content is. Sort of like Yahoo in the pre-Google days. I think this is only going to become more apparent once AI-generated content takes over the web.
  • internetter 3y ago
    I’m working on a pinboard competitor (that is, essentially, just reviving development of it) One thing I want to look into is ranking algorithms based on individual engagement. So, if you save lots of stories from a site, it ranks higher. If lots of people save stories from a site, it also ranks higher, ect
    • nottorp 3y ago
      And... when the bots come and "engage", what will you do?
      • internetter 3y ago
        1. Voting rings are one of the easiest types of spam to detect. Of course, the bigger the service the better the bots, but that problem specifically is a later issue 2. Zero tolerance to bots 3. The service is not free 4. Individuals have very little impact on the rankings of other users, so you need to pay for a lot of bots I believe that the true problem with bots on, say, twitter, is that they have perverse incentives to 'boost engagement' and whatever by allowing the bots to run rampant.
        • nottorp 3y ago
          > The service is not free That may fix things on its own ;) Now would I pay to see what other people 'engage' with? I'd probably associate it with the likes of facebook/twitter/other social networking crap and I'd just move along...
  • 3y ago
• darrmit 3y ago
  I did pay briefly for Kagi, but ultimately just didn't see the benefit over DDG. Google seems to be too far gone to be useful, but DDG still consistently finds what I need. Other than that, the main issue I have with Kagi from a business perspective is it will always be extremely niche. Even among "tech" people, the idea of paying for a search engine will always be a single digit percentage of the overall market. I view Fastmail in a similar manner, but the difference with them is they have a real business market for those wanting an alternative to Google or Microsoft.
  • coldpie 3y ago
    Yeah, I signed up for the free Kagi trial because of all the praise on here, and I think I've used it... twice? It felt exactly like DDG and Google. I think I just don't use search engines very often.
  • xigoi 3y ago
    The main benefit over DDG is the ability to customize search results. If you have no use for that, Kagi is probably not for you, and that’s fine.
• jchw 3y ago
  Good write-up, I am taking it somewhat with a grain of salt since I am not really invested in this enough to try to verify it for myself, but unfortunately it doesn't really feel like a huge shock either. Kagi Search is at the very least intriguing, though I honestly didn't find the results very impressive; they seemed alright, but nothing spectacular. The thing that is frustrating is, Google has a massive index, but searching it is an exercise in frustration because it feels like it is basically rewriting your query. Even using "" and + no longer seems to be good at ensuring certain things appear in the results, and so I sometimes try, in desperation, to simply repeat the term I want to emphasize multiple times in the query, which finally sometimes allows me to find things I already know exists. God forbid you wanted to find something you didn't know existed, because in that case, you might never realize Google is fucking up what you're looking for; it has the answer, but it's hidden in a sea of Google-funded blogspam. What a mess. Will there ever again be a profitable search engine that works as well as Google used to? The answer might be no, and this bums me out. > And he is very, very much the type that believes "not everything is political" Well, at least we agree on one thing, I have always felt the "everything is political" angle was one of those semantic technicalities, kind of like saying "actually, the glass is always full, just sometimes it's full of air". The lack of a well-defined boundary between "political" issues and non-political issues should not be used as an excuse to drive politics and politically-charged discussion into otherwise rather mundane and apolitical things. I suppose it's not really that important, but this is one of those Internet-era brainrot issues I dislike most. Of course, maybe this is actually trying to make a more nuanced point, but it being phrased like this activated my "uhm, actually" response impulse.
  • dinkleberg 3y ago
    Yeah the everything is politics take is nonsense. Certainly anything can be made to be about politics, but it doesn’t have to be (and shouldn’t be). Also, anyone who can say with a straight face that their preferred political party is aligned with the truth, while the opposition is aligned with lies loses credibility. People lie about anything whenever it suits them, and in politics and the news that is rather often. It just so happens that they like what the one side is saying and not what the others are saying. So the one side must be good and telling the truth, and the other is bad and full of liars.
• carlosjobim 3y ago
  What I sense here is the same phenomena as when a famous artist gets a fan that turns into a hater that maybe turns into a stalker, but this time it is a small company that gets this kind of attention and zeal. There's some kind of psychological instinct that makes some people think that they are owed something and have some kind of personal relation to somebody famous or in this case a company, a kind of familiarity that is just one way. The author of course wouldn't direct this kind of attention towards Google or any other huge company, because they understand that there is no relationship between him and them. But now when it's a small company, there is a short circuit. Just like stalkers usually direct their attention to female performers, and not to gangster rappers or a rock band. Of course there will be nothing that Kagi as a company, or the people behind Kagi could do to please the author. When in "hater mode", exactly everything the other part does or says will be turned and twisted into something bad. Just read the e-mail exchange that was posted. With that said, Kagi is still the best search engine around and if they someday won't be, it's as easy as unsubscribing.
  • danpalmer 3y ago
    Did you read the post? I know this sort of fan/hater type, and this post comes across to me as very much not that. I think Kagi have a lot of things to answer for, in particular, a large tax bill, possible GDPR violations, and potentially a future inability to pay their hosting bill in t-shirts.
• danpalmer 3y ago
  Jesus this approach to privacy is just awful. "it's not data collection if the user volunteers it" I mean wtf. "emails aren't PII because you can use a burner". GDPR was designed to protect consumers from companies like this.
• mr_machine 3y ago
  I'm a subscriber simply because their search is far better than any available alternative. That's the primary thing I want from them and so far they're delivering it at a cost I consider fair. Their other projects are not interesting or useful to me, but so far I can simply ignore them. Yes, on some level I wish they'd focus and quit wasting money and energy on things I don't care about, but that's really not my affair. The one growing reservation I have is with regard to Vlad's/Kagi's actual, boots-on-the-ground approach to privacy. Kagi necessarily has the ability to know more about me than almost any other company. I want to see them demonstrate strong and unwavering commitment to respecting and protecting my privacy - through policy, technology, and careful and continuous vetting of partners. Expressed disinterest in collecting or capitalizing on my data is not enough, and seeing Vlad's communications in which he casually shrugs or responsibility-shifts to a third-party heightens my concern. For now, I remain a customer - but a wary one. I've stopped actively recommending Kagi personally and professionally because as a privacy advocate, it increasingly feels irresponsible to do so.
  • garciansmith 3y ago
    I've been curious about Kagi but the idea of running all my searches through one company while logged in worries me. Yes, I realize most people do that with Google and could care less, but I do. For me to try Kagi I'd need a much firmer commitment to user privacy, not the wishy-washy hand-waving portrayed here.
    • flakeoil 3y ago
      For google it probably does not matter if you are logged in or not. They know who you are anyway when you do your searches.
      • deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
    • Zuiii 3y ago
      This is my primary concern with Kagi. The founder posted comments on hn assuring that they take privacy seriously, and I believe him, but most commercial companies (including the big ones like Microsoft) also claimed to take privacy seriously. Look at what they are doing right now: Blatant violations and even more blatant lies. Search is a deeply personal activity. It can reveal far more information about the user than financial statements, health records, privileged attorney information, or library reading lists. Kagi therefore must _at least_ meet the same sanctity, privilege, and protection standards afforded to those parts of life. At present, Kagi does not meet these standards through technical means, and governing laws certainly fall short of compelling Kagi to meet either. So while I appreciate what Kagi is trying to do and wish them success, I cannot see myself using it in its current form. Local (private) LLMs and fact checking through search engines that aren't tied to my PII simply provide a superior experience. At present, it's simply impossible for people like me who want better search and are willing to pay for it to become customers of Kagi. I find that to be a real shame :(
• binarymax 3y ago
  I don’t have the full story on the t-shirts, but isn’t this a typical “we want to give tshirts to our supporters” without realizing that it’s crazy expensive and complicated? They probably didn’t intend to spend 1/3 of their round on tshirts, but this is pretty much a microfunding cliche at this point. Kickstarters often reel at their tshirt promise after the fact, and I believe there’s even a YC company or two that started just to solve the problem of sending supporters their promised swag.
• rsynnott 3y ago
  > For example, he has stated before that he thinks 3 star reviews on products are "by definition" unbiased, because they must include good and bad points. ... What? Has this person ever visited a review site? I mean, it varies fairly dramatically, and there are some niches where 3/5, 5/10 etc has a fairly defined meaning (for instance, for TV reviewers it means "meh", for gadget reviewers it means "this will catch fire as soon as you plug it in"), but really, I mean, what?
  • jlund-molfese 3y ago
    The author seems to deliberately misunderstand the language that a non-native English speaker is using, for the purposes of maximizing outrage. There isn't any citation, but I doubt Vlad said anything like that. If I had to guess, I'd assume it was a more nuanced take like "3-star reviews are less likely to be biased than 5-star reviews." For example, Kagi very clearly does not own a t-shirt factory, and this worst-faith take makes me distrust the entire post.
• mediumsmart 3y ago
  That’s ok. Faith is what you need for Google.
• fluentbyfire 3y ago
  [flagged]
  • carlinm 3y ago
    I haven't looked too deeply into perplexity yet. What do you find much better about it?
    • fluentbyfire 3y ago
      On any query, you get a summary answer from the latest LLMs (Claude 3, ChatGPT 4 Turbo, Mistral Large) and the list of sources. Very thorough, highly efficient, and no ads.
      • laborcontract 3y ago
        Honestly I’ve tried perplexity and it was great at first but I find the results exhausting. Imagine reading all that and realizing it’s not what you’re looking for. Also, at the end of the day you have to trust that it can find stuff better than you. I prefer finding my own sources and querying from there.
  • dantondwa 3y ago
    Meh, Perplexity is just GPT/Claude/Gemini with a mediocre web search attached to it. The latest rumours about them adding ads to their search and the fact that they are VC-funded do not prospect such a bright future for it.
    • fluentbyfire 3y ago
      I've paid for both Kagi and Perplexity, and I get much more value with Perplexity. But hey, if people want to stay with Kagi, that's fine. I just don't see why anyone would when there is a better alternative.
  • deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
• edude03 3y ago
  (this articles formatting was super hard to read, I love the web 1.0 "just get it out there" vibe but man I wish CSS had a good "reasonable default" for lots of text) I'm a huge fan of kagi and have been paying for it for as long as paying for it has been possible - that said, I think the author is spot on about the long term viability of the project considering their limited funding, limited employees, very wide (yet unproven) interests AND a leader who's maybe not so receptive to feedback. For example I was part of the Orion beta and I left feedback in the discord that it took ~30 seconds on the then top of the line iPhone (13 Pro Max?) to load the interface which made it hard to use and I thought it was unreasonably slow and he said something like "that's not slow it's totally reasonable" and since then I decided it wasn't worth leaving any more feedback and have since left the community.
  • catapart 3y ago
    FWIW, my assumption here is that people who publish like this page are expecting users to use a "reader view" and they're trying not to introduce any styles at all, so as not to conflict with the styles that the reader view will apply. Otherwise, ' "reasonable default" for lots of text ' is something that browsers provide, using the "system" fonts. Applying a font-family to the entire html or body tags will do the job, because system fonts don't need to download or load into the browser. And since you can even specify the specific system font you want to use, you have a few options like serif or sans-serif. All of that aside, if I applied a system font and your screen reader applies a different one, what was the point of the extra css? So that's my guess as to why people do this because, like you, I find it very hard to read. If you're curious, though, Firefox has a built-in reader mode and I think Safari does, too. Last I checked, Chrome's was behind a flag. And then, of course, there are extensions (but extensions to read plain HTML docs seems exactly backwards, so...)
    • drcongo 3y ago
      Using reader view would discard all CSS anyway though right?
      • catapart 3y ago
• unraveller 3y ago
  [flagged]
• keyboardJones 3y ago
  OP’s Mastodon post on Vlad’s follow up: https://hackers.town/@lori/112255132348604770 https://hackers.town/@lori/112255132348604770
  • resolutebat 3y ago
    Vlad does not appear to be aware of the first rule of holes: if you're in one, stop digging. I'm a happy, paid Kagi subscriber and have been one for a long time, but I've been uneasy for a while about their lack of focus (the T-shirt fiasco being only the latest example) and the post demonstrates clearly that the issue is systemic. You're trying to compete in search against Google and Microsoft with 12 people! Stop doing irrelevant bullshit that's no going to improve your bottom line!
• mst 3y ago
  > the only real killer feature it has to me is the ability to block domains from your results, which I can currently only do in other search engines via a user script that doesn't help me on mobile User scripts are doable on Firefox for Android. For iOS, somewhat ironically, I think you'd need Orion.
• sph 3y ago
  As a paying user since day 1, I do not give a rat's arse about AI. In fact, I have moved away from Google because they have focused so much on AI their search got worse to the point of being useless. I paid for a good search engine that respects my queries and does not try to outsmart me. The more Kagi focuses on AI, and making an """intelligent""" search engine, basically replicating Google's missteps, is the day I stop giving them money. I've already been noticing some of my keywords are being ignored or reinterpreted. Please stop that. I don't care about email either. I am paying Fastmail for it, and I certainly know better than to attach my search history to my email account, especially when it's from an AI company. Is the goal here to copy Google? To all startup owners: there is more to software quality and user experience than trying to fit the AI buzzword in anything you do. Stop following the hype and focus on building a damn good product.
  • mostlysimilar 3y ago
    100% agreed. I was disappointed when Kagi launched their AI thing but I had hoped it was just a small side project or something. If it's truly a major focus for them I'll be ditching my subscription. Also not jazzed about their browser and email etc.
• acureau 3y ago
  I did not know all of this about the org. The t-shirt situation is just unfathomably stupid, that last line about anonymity might convince me to cancel. I still do like the product they offer, though. It'll be difficult to give up their bullshit result filtering. I also cancelled my ChatGPT plan because I could use GPT4 through Kagi. They also provide access to Gemeni, Mistral, and Claude. Probably actually an unsustainable value.
• t8sr 3y ago
  [flagged]
  • internetter 3y ago
    In defense of them, they also asked for this story not to be posted on hacker news (and, for the record, these emails came before the post came here)
• zirtec 3y ago
  > Kagi does not collect any personal information > Our payment processor does, and you can ask Stripe for that - Kagi CEO > The data subject shall have the right to obtain from the controller (...) access to the personal data (...) - Art 15 GDPR > Controllers are responsible for complying with SARs, not processors. - ICO https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/uk-gdpr-guidance-and-resources/individual-rights/right-of-access/what-is-the-right-of-access/#whois https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/uk-gdpr-guidance-and-re... Kagi = controller / Stripe = processor So no Vlad, that is not how the GDPR works.
• daft_pink 3y ago
  I really love using Kagi Search. It’s awesome. I think Arc is becoming very similar with all their AI features that are kind of boring, but that their team is obviously focusing on. It is quite strange that they are doing all these other things that I basically don’t use at all though. Classic entrepreneur chase shiny objects and get bored with the core idea. In their defense though, people do believe that search is going towards an ai future. But I do want to say that Kagi Search is really awesome and I hope it works and I won’t go back.
• Mockapapella 3y ago
  > and they have fully bought into AI being the future of search Good, because as far as I can tell it is. I use their "Quick Answer" feature very often in my searches, to the point where it's the first thing I click when searching. It's fantastic on mobile so I don't have to go trawling through ad-ridden websites. I am a happy customer because of this feature. > But the developers of Kagi fully believe that this is what search engines should be, a bunch of AI tools so that you don't even need to read primary sources anymore At least with "Quick Answer" it links to their sources used. This is a non-issue. > There was some demo where you could put someone's Twitter handle in and it would give you a summary of who that person was (nightmare shit) Really? Providing a summary of someone who willingly posts publicly is the stuff of nightmares? This is not a serious person and their opinion should not be taken seriously. > And he is very, very much the type that believes "not everything is political" and "we don't get into politics" Because not everything is political. I have never met a stable or amicable person who has thought that everything is political. Every time they have had a coarse personality that has a warped perception of reality. If I had a discord channel for my product and people were going into it mucking it up by trying to make everything political, they would get a swift ban. Keep that shit on Twitter. I see a lot of their extra features as just that, extra. I don't buy Amazon Prime because I want to use "Twitch Prime" and "Amazon Music" as well, I buy it because I want faster shipping times. The rest is just extra and is of no concern to me. A third of their investment on free t-shirts aside (which ain't good AFAICT), most of what Vlad is talking about comes off as reasonable. The only thing I do take concern with is his stance on <100 people on earth who really need anonymity. That does not inspire confidence.
• yieldcrv 3y ago
  There is absolutely no reason to trust Vlad on GDPR when they didn’t even pay sales taxes
• stzsch 3y ago
  My perspective as a subscriber for ~6 months: Search just works, 90%+ of my searches are on kagi. Much better than google, bing, ddg, etc. Worth the $10. I do use fastgpt and the summarizer sometimes. As with any of these AI tools, you have to get a feel for what suits it and when to use it. The unbiased review idea _sounds like_ it would be ultimately fruitless as the requirements get philosophical, but it may very well lead to more useful tools in the process. The GDPR perspective is unfortunate. I'm willing to wait and see if they eventually accept it. Overall, I like their focus on user experience, customization, fast and light websites, and search quality. Sure it might not as objective as it's portrayed, but it is giving me great tools _today_.
• strogonoff 3y ago
  I’m using Orion and I pay for Kagi. Orion works great (despite a few glitches I had run into over year or two, miles ahead of competition). Like others, I think that they had to raise money is a worrying signal they are not sustaining themselves. However, that’s only a signal. I may not think the CEO is a particularly nice guy (though he was not too pleasant when responding to tickets, which yes he apparently does himself (unless it’s a shared account?), he was not rude either), but realistically can I demand that from him? Push comes to shove, can’t really claim I’m extremely nice either, and I have achieved less. Regarding the use of ML or Kagi being originally an AI company, I don’t think it necessarily condemns the project. Kagi Email drama seems ridiculous, but is very new to me. Unless there are some further bad revelations about the company or the CEO, I will reserve my judgement for now…
• nunez 3y ago
  I use Kagi heavily. I don't make time to follow their Discord but have submitted some bugs to their feedback forum. I also paid for Kagi+ because Orion is a cool project and I want very badly for it to replace Safari as my main line browser. Honestly, this gave me the impression that Kagi is a move fast and break shit kind of company, with Vlad as a benevolent dictator type. Finances are often (I think) a disaster at these kinds of companies that gets fixed later. The t-shirt thing is sus but those shirts look really cool and I might buy one. Vlad being flippant about getting sold is better than lying about "nothing will change; we will find a buyer that agrees with our values" while looking for the highest bidder, values be damned. The email thing makes sense technically (they're basically trying to be a Google alternative) and seems like too much, but, hey, it's Vlad's money (I believe he bootstrapped this? If so, the investments they got were probably more donations than investments) and if the devs want to do it, more power to them! Vlad is "my way or the highway" unless you convince him that the highway is actually better. I've seen this happen with many feature requests, like them improving WebAuthN support or integrating support for Apple's iCloud Keychain extension, both in the Orion browser. Also, while Kagi seems to have pivoted from an AI answering service to search, it seems like a really logical pivot and comments like this: > 1 AI should be used to the extent that it enhances our humanity, not diminish it (AI should be used to support users, not replace them) give me the impression that they're at least trying to be responsible with this tech. Everything in this article is mildly concerning, but the alternative (going back to Google Search and embracing a mono-browser future) is so much worse. I don't regret supporting their mission at this time.
• 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 3y ago
  > Did I mention that the t-shirts don't even have the Kagi name on them? Just the Kagi dog mascot, who is at this point the only thing I like about Kagi I don't even like the dog mascot.
• tombert 3y ago
  I don't know that I agree with all these complaints. Making a bunch of free shirts is something DuckDuckGo did too, I have one. Is it a bit weird they incorporated their own factory for it? Yeah, but I guess I just figured that that was part of their marketing budget. How many cool products have we seen die just because their marketing was crappier than their competitors? I do think that building their own browser is a waste of resources, but I think that the AI tools also are kind of marketing. People utilizing the universal summarizer gets the name out there, and allows people to see the Kagi branding more frequently. Are they spreading themselves too thin? Maybe, but simultaneously I do feel like the second that someone has to reach for Google to do anything, that's going to whittle away at their potential market share. I think the fear is that people are going to say "if I have to do X using Google anyway, why should I stick with Kagi, especially since Google is free?" It's tough to say, I've been a paying Kagi user for about a year, I like it, it's a product that I actually think is better than vanilla Google. I really want them to succeed, so maybe I'm viewing what they are doing with rose-colored glasses, but most of the complaints in this blog post didn't seem completely horrible to me.
• jmull 3y ago
  This is a great argument against the kind of blog where you just drop your stream of consciousness into a publicly available document, which may be archived and searchable. Uptake on a site like HN may seem like a win now, but it also means there will be no hiding from it. This is the kind of thing that comes up when you're trying to form new relationships (whether personal or career/business) so you may not want to put your worst side forward. (I have no opinion on Kagi, BTW, since I know virtually nothing about it.)
• graemep 3y ago
  A lot of this seems to be "I do not like Vlad". The only issue that has been brought up here that concerns me is privacy, and the important thing there is that whether search history data is stored and can be linked to and account. Some things like personalisation features require it, but what about the rest? It does concern me that I have to take their word for it.
• figassis 3y ago
  I noticed Orion is very very buggy, and I found it odd from a revenue oriented company. I was desperately looking for a way out of the chromium world and also avoiding Firefox, so when I found Orion I thought this is where I'd settle and maybe help development. But the bugs are so counter productive, that you can't even manage bookmarks. Something was off with that browser's team.
  • freediver 3y ago
    It is very hard to build a browser from scratch. Yes Orion is still in beta and buggy, but there are hundreds of people who paid $150 for a lifetime license for this browser, which makes me hopeful that there is a space for a browser we pay for and is built with users' best interest in mind. That is incredibly important for Kagi's mission.
    • figassis 3y ago
      It is important, and I thought it'd be amazing. So then take it seriously. If you need more funding then find a better pricing model. But it is a shame that a project so attractive feels like it's abandoned.
      • freediver 3y ago
        > But it is a shame that a project so attractive feels like it's abandoned. Can you clarify what makes you say that? Orion development is very active. Here is Orion's changelog in case you missed it: https://kagi.com/orion/updates/orion-release-notes.html https://kagi.com/orion/updates/orion-release-notes.html
        • figassis 3y ago
          I installed it sometime (end of last year/ beginning of this year, can't recall). Was setting it up and imported bookmarks. Then tried to edit them and found out that renaming bookmarks and/or changing links messes up the bookmarks, they don't save/get reset. Some very odd behaviors and I have a hard time believing that they were not picked up by the team or other users. I think setting bookmarks with icon only was also not working. There were other issues and I just did not have the energy to navigate those and my work. So I decided to give it another few years. Using Safari now. But Orion being solid would make me come back. I also don't want to be overly critical, and I am a paying Kagi user, love it and will eventually try to use the family plan, but maybe I'm just not at the point where I have time to deal with glitchy software anymore.
• rc_mob 3y ago
  Kagi uses Google products under the hood for everything. So you are not really avoiding Google/Alphabet when you use Kagi. The pay Google a lot on money for various services and index data and such.
• davikr 3y ago
  they 100% don't own a T-shirt factory. this feels like finding a reason to seethe over them using genai&llm.
• EricAski 3y ago
  I am surprised that nobody mentioned Kagi Maps so far. To me this is the largest waste of energy possible, building an Apple/Google Maps competitor is a project too ambitious and time consuming for a 12 person company which is also developing a search engine (and a browser, and AI assistants, etc.). Kagi should nail their search engine first and only then start side projects like that.
  • Kbelicius 3y ago
    > I am surprised that nobody mentioned Kagi Maps so far. To me this is the largest waste of energy possible, building an Apple/Google Maps competitor Kagi maps seems to just be Apple maps otherwise I don't see why they would put Apple maps logo in the bottom left corner.
• mrweasel 3y ago
  Maybe a little off topic, but regarding Orion: Can someone explain to me why every search engine feel like they need to build their own browser, and by build I mean jiggle the handles on Chromium a bit? It seems pointless. I can sort of see why Microsoft would do it, but that's Microsoft wanting a modern browser for their operating system, not DuckDuckGo, Kagi or Ecosia wanting a browser for their search box. Why this is pretty much just a weird rant about Kagi, I do agree with the questioning of the investment in maintaining a browser.
  • JopV 3y ago
    Orion is based on WebKit, not on Chromium. The Mac version of DuckDuckGo's browser is based on WebKit too.
    • mrweasel 3y ago
      You're right, it doesn't negate the question though.
      • eipi10_hn 3y ago
        On iOS it is not simple to switch to other search engines on Safari that's not in their list: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38937619 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38937619 The thing is they can't control the stability of alternative methods on Safari. It's up to Apple.
        • eviks 3y ago
          But it is simple of Firefox on iOS, so if that's all you need there are existing browser alternatives
          • eipi10_hn 3y ago
            It's actually another hoop for users: - Safari + Kagi: you just need a default browser and a non-default search - Orion + Kagi: you just need a non-default browser and a default search - Firefox + Kagi: you need a non-default browser and a non-default search It might not look that much difference but in terms of thousands users, any reduction for users' steps to do, it is better.
• JohnFen 3y ago
  I get where he's coming from, but I don't really find those arguments to be a huge problem. Probably because my "ideal" search engine doesn't exist. I have to choose out of the offerings on the market, and Kagi is the least objectionable of them for me. In terms of letting me find what I'm looking for, Kagi is the best search engine I've tried. At worst, it's no less "private" than the alternatives. The AI stuff is irrelevant to me until it starts degrading the search results I get. I just ignore their AI-related features. No big deal, and certainly no worse than others. All the other criticisms (t-shirts, etc.) don't matter at all to me. What matters is search quality.
• rdl 3y ago
  I use them and none of this stuff really matters; they basically have deep pockets available to them and in the current operating model can continue indefinitely. I'd love to see more focus on their own search engine/results, as well as technical means of ensuring anonymity/unlinkability within their infrastructure, but they're well worth the $250/yr for a pro subscription today.
• prh8 3y ago
  From this and other things, Vlad has seemed to have a heavy Elon Musk vibe, which is unfortunate. My partner works in mental healthcare. There are absolutely more than 100 people who need anonymity. Far more than 100 people who have patients show up at their residence with bad intentions. I think men are also more predisposed to think that "most people" don't have anything to worry about with their personal safety. All I want is a search engine that 1. ignores junk 2. allows me to up/down/pin rank certain sites 3. efficiently gets me to what I'm looking for Kagi was that, and still mostly is, but all the AI stuff is pretty distracting, and it's becoming increasingly difficult to be willing to support a company with a good piece of tech but bad human leadership.
• emushack 3y ago
  I really don't understand why people are so upset about the T-shirts. Like in the grand scheme of things, who cares? If I invested money (I didn't) in Kagi, I would expect some of that money to be spent on marketing. Marketers often do experiments, some of which go well, and others that don't. Only time tells. This take feels more like being upset about one individual's (Vlad) personal opinions about privacy and politics. But in my opinion, it fails to realize that assigning one person's views to an entire organization is a fallacy. Even if they are the leader. As a service, I like Kagi. Both in principle, and in practice. I find the "summarize this page" feature to be very useful. I also like the idea of paying for value, rather than being forced to feed the advertising beast. So I pay for value. If it stops being valuable, I will stop paying. I care about privacy, but I also realize that we live in a world where there are serious limits on the amount of privacy that can be expected. So I have to just do the best I can with what is available. Kagi is at least an improvement on the standard "eyeballs are the product" business model.
  • danpalmer 3y ago
    Sending t-shirts to existing users is unlikely to be an effective marketing strategy to grow/maintain the business. The way they did it was also inefficient and high-risk. It may reduce churn, but with 20k users there's a very low cap on how good a churn reduction can be vs bringing in new users.
    • lolinder 3y ago
      As a counterpoint, nearly all of Kagi's growth so far can be directly attributed to word-of-mouth marketing from those 20k early adopters. I can see a rational case to be made that making those vocal early adopters feel appreciated will pay off in the long run as they continue to advocate for Kagi in places like HN.
      • danpalmer 3y ago
        That's fair, but many of them may also prefer to see the money spent on the service (or other marketing). If I was paying $20 a month for a service on the basis of creating a sustainable paid search business, I think being sent a "free" t-shirt would call into question the sustainability and make it harder to justify the cost – can I pay $15 for a service that doesn't send t-shirts? More generally though, word of mouth is a good place to start but it maxes out quickly, especially for niche products. There will need to be some support from other channels. Even just putting the name of the company on the t-shirt would have supported it a bit.
• slackfan 3y ago
  Kagi is not a product I'd use, nor do I get the hype around it. The company has apparently made a significant amount of bad business decisions. The author is a politically-obsessed weirdo who gets upset when people deny their delusions.
• AlexandrB 3y ago
  > And he is very, very much the type that believes "not everything is political" and "we don't get into politics". Seems like a feature, not a bug. The only politics I care about from my tech products is whether they will collect/sell my personal data or not. Too many tech companies use a veneer of support for various political causes to take attention away from their own misdeeds. At this point it's a red flag when a company talks more about their politics than about their product. Thus the quotes at the end are quite bad: > people who really need anonymity are very rare. probably less than a 100 in the entire world. definitely not typical hKagi users (edited) > unless they are criminals, in which case we don't care they don't have full anonymity (nor we want them as customers) Women seeking abortions in the US weren't criminals two years ago and now, in some places, they are. I don't think he's thought about this position very carefully.
• rchaud 3y ago
  > Like most search now Kagi has chosen to include Instant Answers that are AI generated, which means they're often wrong, as well as a "Universal Summarizer" tool, that again is more of the same old AI bullshit. I started turning away from Google when they implemented this a few years ago, because the "answers" they selected always came from bullshit sites. Looking up Excel formulas for example, you're more likely to see a lightly disguised sales pitch page from an Excel barnacle company like AbleBits or ExtendOffice than the many forum posts and tutorial blogs that would actually answer my question.
• Crontab 3y ago
  Is Kagi actually running their own search engine or are they just representing the outputs of other company's search engines? I ask because I am considering a subscription.
  • Kbelicius 3y ago
    I think they do have their own index but they are also heavily reliant on other search engines.
• troyvit 3y ago
  I got a little more than halfway through the post before I gave up. I honestly don't know of any other tech endeavor that is doing so much good only 16 people. You can diss their CEO all you want, but their product is heads above the rest. And it's not just recycled google results. It's google's API, which means that it brings back into the light what google was best at before they decided to monetize it with echo chamber algos and toxic ads. I can find it in my heart hate Alphabet and yet pay to mainline their best product with a sprinkle of other vitamins and minerals like Wolfram.
• kodarna 3y ago
  Kagi Ultimate user here. This article comes across so unhinged it almost works as an advertisement, except for the founder dismissing privacy issues... I'm happy to hear Kagi are creating an e-mail service though, I've been looking to get away from Microsoft 365 since I'm not really using the meat of it. I hope they allow multiple aliases per users and perhaps add a masking service as well.
  • green_dragon 3y ago
    It absolutely does work as an advertisement. I hadn't heard of it and immediately signed up for it.
• starsep 3y ago
  I am Kagi subscriber because I think their search is great. I would like them to focus on it. I don't care about closed-sourced browser nor their AI offering
• luuurker 3y ago
  I don't know if I'll ever use Kagi, if their founder fully understand privacy laws, if I agree with him clarifying anything when clearly this person doesn't want to discuss it, etc... but after reading the post and some stuff on Mastodon, I'm glad I don't have to deal directly with customers. I'd hate to have people like this using my service.
• wkat4242 3y ago
  I don't know why this is flagged into oblivion. I'm sure most HN users won't agree because Kagi is very popular here but I don't think the arguments are bad or overblown. Personally I don't use Kagi for 2 reasons: It's not significantly better than what I already have (SearXNG private instance) and I don't really subscribe to the "everything must be paid on the internet". I'm much more comfortable running some dockers and putting a privacy barrier between myself and google, as I do for my searches, for my phones, computers etc. Of course this kind of tech solution is not an option for everyone, but I don't care about everyone :) $10 is a lot of money for me and I rather spend that on something I control like 2 VPSes. Also I think that once things go commercial eventually they will reach a scale where they will want our data too. After all, data is like free money. A business will never say no to free money. By due diligence law they're not even allowed to. Kagi has that luxury now, but once they become big and own half a northern californian town for their campus they no longer will. That's the idea of enshittification.
  • rixthefox 3y ago
    My only reason for not using SearXNG is it seems like the complete opposite of what you want for a search engine replacement. The one shining point of using Kagi, Google, Bing or DDG is that only ONE search engine is getting my search query. With SearXNG you've now taken your search query and sent it all over the place which I don't personally believe is better. My goal is to get my searches OUT of other companies hands, not thrust it directly to all of them all the time. Additionally, by running a private instance you have effectively given all these companies a spotlight onto YOU. Only your searches are going to come from that instance and these companies already have enough information they can figure out WHO is making that search pretty much right after you click through the first result. Just from the available public instances you can quickly see that other search engines may block your requests for one reason or another but your server will be constantly retrying to query them from time to time. Last thing I want is to find my IP addresses on some sort of "naughty list" because I wasn't honoring some 403 error my server was getting every time I searched something. There is nothing that says other search engines won't wise up and figure out how to stop searx from "abusing" their search functions so it almost feels like the only sure way to ensure search privacy is to run your own crawler, for better or worse.
• drunkan 3y ago
  Honestly after reading this guys follow up rant about the CEO contacting him directly for an opportunity to address any of the points made in this post, this comes off as nothing more than a hit piece. Just saying ive said my piece and I have no interest in hearing any follow up or rebuttals is just classic modern day social media journalism. Suprised the CEO stayed so cool in his follow ups with this guys attempt to goad the CEO into loosing his cool in a private email so he could plaster it all over the web - he comes accross as nothing more than a drama troll.
• iLoveOncall 3y ago
  Kagi is really given a LOT of space on HackerNews for something that doesn't even have 25,000 users.
  • voiceblue 3y ago
    I was also shocked to see this number given how frequently the product is mentioned on here. Makes me wonder what the Venn diagram of HN and Kagi users is like.
• cube2222 3y ago
  From my own experience, the AI built-in to Kagi is excellent. I frequently suffix my query with a question mark to trigger their AI responder (it responds based on the content of a few top results, with citations), and the results are almost always great, and spare me the need to open each of the sites individually and look through them. I don't care about Orion and Email, but what I'm getting right now in terms of search experience is definitely worth the cost.
  • barbazoo 3y ago
    > I frequently suffix my query with a question mark to trigger their AI responder Didn't even know that existed, thanks for sharing.
    • cube2222 3y ago
      I recommend following their changelog: https://kagi.com/changelog https://kagi.com/changelog
• knoebber 3y ago
  Fair criticisms, but at the end of the day, Kagi offers a better search experience then all the alternatives for a fair price, so I pay for it. I don't really need to have 'faith' in it, though I do hope it sticks around. Also, can't wait to get my tshirt! (closed beta user here)
  • cmrdporcupine 3y ago
    Exactly this, it's a product, not a religion. I like that it exists. I pay for it. It feels worth it to me. Certainly more useful to me than the Netflix sub I had hanging around forever but barely used. I don't get why random punditry is of any relevance here, or why Vlad felt the need to respond. He needs a PR person, I think
    • ziddoap 3y ago
      >Exactly this, it's a product, not a religion. Could have fooled me!
• recursive 3y ago
  I'm a kagi subscriber, and this is the first I'm hearing of the t-shirt thing. I'll be happy as long as the search is good.
• segasaturn 3y ago
  VERY ironic to me that a web search company has its community platform hosted on Discord, which is un-indexable. Honestly, companies having their community platform on Discord is a huge red flag for me.
  • klabb3 3y ago
    I also have my reservations and in particular the lack of indexability is a big problem. However, a red flag is an overstatement. You have to pick your battles. Discord is an excellent place to collaborate. It’s easy to use for non-techies. The level of community is consistently high, better than old Reddit imo. Being realtime it’s conducive to ad hoc chatter.
  • andriamanitra 3y ago
    The Discord seems to be mostly casual, unimportant discussion and notifications about updates. If you bring up an issue or a feature request they very quickly ask you to post on the feedback site (https://kagifeedback.org/ https://kagifeedback.org/) instead.
• ajkjk 3y ago
  Yeah every time they mention AI I am more sure that I do not care about them.
• GrumpySloth 3y ago
  I’ve been suspicious of and disconcerted by the amount of AI-related news coming out of Kagi. I unapologetically hate the current AI craze and am turned off whenever I see it appear in one of the products I use. I’ve also already stopped using Kagi on mobile, because they made the experience of editing the search field terrible with some JS. In particular moving the text cursor in the search field in Kagi on mobile Safari is an exercise in frustration that’s not replicated by any other text field in any other search engine, website or anything at all on iOS. This confirmation about their core focus being LLM stuff seals the deal for me and I’m cancelling my subscription. I fully agree with this sentiment from TFA: > They just don't want to admit to being an AI company anymore. Frankly, it's not something I want to pay them to keep developing. It's something I want less of out in the world.
• rebeccaskinner 3y ago
  I've been using Kagi since the early in the beta, and I've been happy with it. I think most of this article is maybe a bit overblown, but there are a few things that give me pause. On the positive side, I still think Kagi's search results are, practically speaking, better than other search engine's results. I don't make heavy use of filters, but used sparingly they've had a really positive impact on my experience. Same with the AI integrations- I don't use them much, but sometimes I do and I'm glad I have the option. The investment in AI seems totally sensible to me. I'm not "all in" on AI, but it seems obvious to me that AI both clearly compliments document retrieval for a search engine, and integrating AI services fits well with the idea of putting together a service backed by things like Google or OpenAI's APIs (and maybe slowly replacing those dependencies as you grow). I'm not a mac user, and Orion on iOS was super buggy so I stopped using it, but I guess I can see an argument that it's a worthwhile investment if it's an effective funnel to get people into Kagi. Apple users seem more likely than other groups to pay for things (like a kagi subscription), and if there aren't other ways of getting Kagi added as a default search engine in Safari or Chrome then it seems like a plausible investment I suppose. Maybe not the choice I'd have made, but not something that really makes me question the company either. Email seems to fit the same narrative as Orion to me. If I were in charge I'm not sure I'd prioritize it, but Google has normalized bundling of email and search for a lot of users, and I can definitely see a plausible argument that people who are already logging into google to use their gmail account would be more likely to churn than people who stay in the Kagi ecosystem. I had no idea the tshirt thing happened, and sure, it seems like a weird choice but whatever, I don't think it's worth getting up in arms about either. All that said, the privacy angle does concern me a fair bit. I'm going to give Vlad a bit of the benefit of the doubt here on email. As a fairly privacy conscious person I still pay Google to host my email. Why? Because email is really only as private as the counterparty you are emailing with. The vast majority of people I correspond with are already using Google for email, so keeping my side of the conversation private has a lower ROI than a lot of other things I could spend effort on. I do worry a lot about other areas of privacy with Kagi though, especially in light of the "let's not get political" comments. We're only getting one side of the conversation, but it had very "right leaning dogwhistle" type vibes to me. Of course with only a few screen shots of a discord conversation it's very hard to know how accurate those vibes might be. I suppose for the moment I'd just say that it gives me pause, and makes me think about how I could recommend Kagi to people who might not be technically savvy enough to understand the potential consequences of their online behavior. Without a much stronger idea of privacy, I would very much worry about anyone using Kagi to search for information related to, e.g. pregnancy if even something as innocuous as searching for pregnancy tests could be used as evidence in a criminal trial against someone accused of a felony for having an abortion- as is the direction many US states are headed. Similarly, I would wonder if I could, in good conscience, recommend people use Kagi to search for any LGBT related material today because they are significant concerns that such searches could be used to persecute people today in many countries, including some US states today and possibly many more US states in the near future. I'm not likely to cancel my subscription or stop using Kagi over this today. I'm still getting value out of the product, and I think the basic idea that we should have an option for things like search where users are the customer and not the product is a fundamentally sound and important one. The very fact that a lot of people commenting in this thread about privacy concerns are customers and not the product is a great opportunity to demonstrate why it's an important idea.
• jlarocco 3y ago
  So he's mad they bought promotional t-shirts after a hitting a subscription goal? If it's deeper than that, I'd recommend adding a summary. It's a big ask to expect strangers to read a ranting wall of text.
• mrmetanoia 3y ago
  Kagi just works for me. I pay a monthly bill and I get a good search engine. Until they do something that disrupts that relationship or signals a disruption to that relationship, the things in this post don't strike me as that, I don't have much patience for posts like these. It's like a child making a "dead game" post for a game that made a change they didn't like.
• theyinwhy 3y ago
  There is a great saying nowadays: Customers are not kings anymore. They are dictators.
• AirMax98 3y ago
  > But I cannot stress enough, they did not just spend money on 20,000 tshirts to give out, they set up a whole new business entity in Germany to run their own t-shirt printing operation, with its own building and warehouse and employee(s? I get the sense it's one guy but I don't know). And this cost them 1/3 of their $670k funding round. One, fucking, third. For t-shirts. Holy shit
• ab_io 3y ago
  I just cancelled my Kagi subscription over the weekend. Some of the ideas in the article resonate (the dev team seems spread way too thin) but I also decided that the main product just wasn't distinct enough. The lens and quick answers features were nice, but otherwise the search results were not that different from Google's -- Having just switched back, I haven't noticed a significant difference. I also think this product might be a bit too late. GPT4 has been out for over a year now, and it's changed how I look for answers. I tried FastGPT but like the author I found it lacking. As it stands, Perplexity feels more like the future of search than Kagi.
  • ibash 3y ago
    I churned from Kagi twice before sticking around as a long term customer, because the results were better than Google. I’ll be curious if you come back to Kagi in a couple months too.
  • mbwgh 3y ago
    It's likely dependent on the 'user archetype'. If you need to e.g. lookup things related to beginner-friendly programming languages, the search results for Google are strongly tainted with SEO crap. Being able to either outright block/pin sites, or only lower/raise them in your search results, made a difference for me after a few days of searching. I do hope the future of search will include being able to use natural language, but also still the more precise '"This" +"That"'. In any case, more competition is a good thing, the lack of it is what got us into this mess in the first place.
• 65 3y ago
  I wouldn't trust this article. The author seems to be a terminally online person with crab mentality. The arguments aren't particularly persuasive and seem to be obsessive and emotional about a random paid search engine. Move along.
  • MeetingsBrowser 3y ago
    I wouldn't trust this comment. The arguments aren't particularly persuasive and seem to be dismissive and reactionary about a random person's opinion. Move along.
• voiceblue 3y ago
  I don’t have a horse in this race, but from using Google’s AI search previews I am not bullish on the future of search being LLMs even with RAG or MoE (though of course, there is plenty of AI to be had apart from these, and I am bullish on AI in general). Even simple things, such as asking about setting up a Starbucks “franchise” (you can’t), are met with enthusiastic, affirmative, and blatantly incorrect answers. Anyone who is thinking of putting LLM output directly in front of customers (no HITL) had better think twice about this.
• gherkinnn 3y ago
  Fair points and a reason not to get personally invested. > Is the search good? I mean...it's not really much better than any other search It is absolutely fantastic as a search engine. The few times I find myself on DDG or Google I am reminded how terrible the alternatives are. For this alone I am happy to pay for however long as possible.
• jiveturkey 3y ago
  TLDR: Kagi should rebrand as `Trust me, bro`
• joshfee 3y ago
  After a recent mention on HN I gave Kagi a try and subscribed for a few months. But after using it I'm really not sure why it get so much for the core "search", I found it so underwhelming that I would instinctively use the !g bang to just go right to Google. It turns out that even though I can't stand the number of ads, Google is still much better at getting me an answer quickly (usually with the quick answer modules). I was also surprised at the number of times Kagi came up with 0 search results, and while one of the draws for me was to have higher quality results instead of quantity, I still found a _ton_ of results for AI generated crappy top-10-list sites trying to sell me something. Love the idea, and will probably check back in from time to time, but so far the execution just isn't there for me.
• corytheboyd 3y ago
  Wrong opinion to have, but I never really found the difference between Kagi results and DDG results to be different enough to warrant paying for something that doesn’t even work on my phone without hacks. FWIW I agree google search is now unusable, only comparing to DDG
  • jjtheblunt 3y ago
    What sort of phone do you have where using kagi requires hacks?
    • corytheboyd 3y ago
      iPhone
      • jjtheblunt 3y ago
        I use it in my iphone with no trickery. Perhaps it’s easiest to use Orion…i’ve found it very nice.
        • corytheboyd 3y ago
          Asking me to change web browsers is insane, so off the table. That leaves going to kagi.com in my browser to then search, but nobody does that. I am opening the web browser, and using the address bar to search, and I want that experience to be good. To have that flow work with kagi you have to jump through some pretty crazy hoops. The point where I unsubscribed for good was when the crazy hoops stopped working. I get it, chips are stacked against them, but something as critically well understood as searching the web just HAS to work as expected, because the free alternatives have a very very good UX.
          • jjtheblunt 3y ago
            Except for your first two sentences, you’re describing how I use Orion on iOS. I haven’t tried any macos version, randomly. (Agreed about manually going to kagi.com not happening, etc.)
• sleepybrett 3y ago
  Mastodon thread wherein the author of this article gets pestered by the owner of kagi: https://hackers.town/@lori/112255132348604770 https://hackers.town/@lori/112255132348604770
• throwaway67743 3y ago
  I actually gave Kagi a try the other day because Google has reached the point of total uselessness (a day I thought had come and gone, but I was wrong, it continued to decline) - but actually the search results for the same queries are worse, not that the content is worse, but that it returns the better/more appropriate content further down the page, the actual content is pretty much identical. Am I doing it wrong or does the tsunami of crap on the internet just mean search engines are fucked?
• lukev 3y ago
  I'm a Kagi user. None of this is relevant to me except the allegation that privacy isn't taken seriously. And yet Kagi's terms of service clearly state that they do not even log user searches. So unless the assertion is that Kagi is wantonly not adhering to its own terms of service... this seems fine?
• tdeck 3y ago
  > They have "FastGPT", where their focus is having a ChatGPT style service that is focused on being fast, not accurate. How could someone come up with this idea and think it was good? For a search engine whose user base is so interested in better quality results they're willing to pay for them?
• andriamanitra 3y ago
  I've been using Kagi as my primary search engine for over 2 years. The search is much more customizable than anything else out there, and the results are usually slightly better than Google's. I don't find their current AI offerings useful but I don't mind the experimentation because I do think there is potential for big improvements to be discovered there. I just turn the AI features off until they figure out something that really works. I share the concerns about wasting time and money on the other silly side projects (t-shirts, email, maps..), but as long as they don't negatively affect the search product or sink the entire company I don't truly care. I do not like that their promise of privacy relies entirely on aligned incentives and trust, but it is no worse than the alternatives that all rely on ad-tech money.
• shufflerofrocks 3y ago
  "No one wants full anonymity unless they are criminals, and we don't want customers as criminals" is a yikes. I don't mind the financial misplay(?), the possibly unsustainable diversification, the lil bit of corporate hypocrisy, or the AI - they're endeavours that can't be avoided while trying to make a compaany profitable - as long as they do what they can do best, WHILE maintaining the stance & spirit taken for forming the company.
• _cenw 3y ago
  After exchanging about 15 emails with Vlad, I can confirm "appear measured and willing to change opinion, but zero budge". It was frustrating to be told I provide "high quality" discussion while many points remained unaddressed or just evaded into boring "we can't know intentions of search users" as if he was building a government. For instance, he claimed both that a search engine shouldn't judge someone for searching how to commit suicide, because they might just want the equivalent of legal euthanasia in a place where it's unavailable and a global search engine should be value neutral for it can't possibly know all cultural norms, but also said "it wouldn't work" as a backup argument that was promptly ignored when I provided a study contrary to it. I ended up feeling like Vlad has a lot of implicit beliefs that are rooted in free speech absolutism, but will rationalize via other unfalsifiable arguments (like scope creep / too many unknowns) while appearing like he'd be open to be convinced. I still use Kagi, but I'm ready to jump ship at the first opportunity.
• nmstoker 3y ago
  I like and pay for Kagi but for me, outside of search, the rest of largely ignored fluff (aeema to chime with several other customers commenting here, eg on AI features). The search is generally good enough, often really good, and the killer feature is FOREVER hiding results from low grade sites and boosting results from sites you respect, without the tonne of commercial rubbish that Google feeds into results. Where I see an area to improve is image search - Google is usually better and it's usually just laziness that I don't do all image searches in Google. I wish Kagi luck and certainly hope to continue to be a customer.
• graphememes 3y ago
  After reading through all of the founders comments, going through the discord and looking at the context and conversations that happened _after_ the screenshots. This person is blowing this completely out of proportion with exaggerated language and cherry picked examples to fit their biases.
• deleted 3y ago
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• firexcy 3y ago
  I am a paying Kagi user and it seems to me that the post is from an over-zealous user venting after their unsolicited advice was rejected. Reading through the post without finding a single mention of search quality is quite telling about its content. There is no reason for Kagi to remain “pure” and avoid AI features as suggested by hardcore AI haters. I am not a fan of AI hype either, but I am pleased to see that Kagi has integrated some moderate capabilities such as the summarizer and search-based generation, which are natural extensions of a modern search engine. (I do hope they improve the expert mode soon, as it is currently far inferior to Perplexity, but that does not invalidate the general point.) Email-based account management may not be perfect from a privacy perspective, but registering with a privacy email alias has mostly resolved my concerns. As for GDPR, let’s not pretend that it is disproportionately burdensome for startups. I value the way a company operates much more than the privacy theatres (banners, opt-outs, legaleses) enforced by GDPR. Other criticisms regarding operational details range from nitpicking to trivial. I do hope that the founder was less insistent on arguing with and lecturing zealous users like the author.
• salad-tycoon 3y ago
  I subscribe to Kagi. Begrudgingly. I wish them well but it does seem all a bit fractured and when push come to shove and the money runs out what are they going to do to safeguard my information? Because it’s easy to talk high morals when things are fine but when it’s your last drop of life blood maybe the moral and ethic equation suddenly changes to get that one last infusion/injection. Is there a common thread amongst search engine founders? The guy from you.com also gives interesting vibes. Here he is with 10 shill accounts. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31344999 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31344999 Edit: I think Vlad is a true believer in what he preaches. I detect no subterfuge in him. But he takes negative comments personally as if people have a duty to love his vision and product. A true believer but seems like that would be a tough trait to have when you cater to a very opinionated audience.
• BLanen 3y ago
  We need a kind of Kagi but it should be user-owned and controlled.
• husamia 3y ago
  I pay for Kagi because I like the search functionality as oppose to google which is heavily monitized, also I use summarizer alot. I wish my search is not capped
  • xigoi 3y ago
    The $10 plan has not been capped for quite a long time.
• deleted 3y ago
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• SuperNinKenDo 3y ago
  A lot of what is mentioned in this article actually comes across to me as positives. That said, one of the things that kept me from using Kagi much is their focus on A.I., which has been staring us in the face since Day 0. I hate A.I. Anything connected with A.I. carries a certain stain that is hard to articulate, but basically immediately makes me feel I have some insight into the psychology of the people behind it, and I do not like what I see. I also think that a lot of people assumed that Kagi is privacy respecting without much evidence, it was never part of their pitch that I remember. For those reasons I've just never used the service. This author's axes to grind beyond that don't concern me too much, but those two things are total deal breakers. Which is sad. More variety in the search space is still good from my perspective. I still hope that Kagi succeed.
• RagnarD 3y ago
  Kind of long piece and yet practically nothing was said relevant to why I use Kagi: it's simply much better than using a Google that's ridiculously left-wing and provides ultra-biased results once you've wasted the time to filter out ads. The ability to raise/lower/block specific sites for future searches in Kagi is also a great feature. Regarding privacy, that is important and they need to be become more transparent about what they're doing in that regard. But it's certain that they're more innocuous than searching with Google. AI will certainly be important to search. I don't think anybody's integrated it well yet, but not for lack of trying. I hope Kagi makes headway on it.
• goldenpothos 3y ago
  My two cents on Kagi raising the price of their subscription to cover their back taxes: - Businesses that’ll eventually need to collect sales tax should add sales tax automation software to their stack from the beginning (even if they don’t expect to hit the threshold in a given jurisdiction anytime soon). Compliance can get really complicated really quickly -- and what founder wakes up and prefers doing taxes over actually building their product? - Avalara is probably the most well-known one (Box uses them) but they have an implementation fee that we couldn’t stomach as a bootstrapped business https://www.avalara.com/us/en/index.html https://www.avalara.com/us/en/index.html - We ended up going with a fellow startup called Kintsugi because they had a free option that connects to Stripe and didn’t have an implementation fee. We probably won’t even hit any thresholds to need to file until 2025 (cross your fingers it’s earlier!!) but they said they’ll email us when we do, here’s their page https://trykintsugi.com/ https://trykintsugi.com/ - Anything related to compliance makes me anxious so this is great because I don’t even have to think about it until I actually need to, though hopefully not under the same circumstances as Kagi :)
• bdjsiqoocwk 3y ago
  Everyone on their discord are anime characters.
• tatrajim 3y ago
  I use Kagi many times daily for search and for access to Clause 3 Opus. Can't say I care about t-shirts. Keep up the good work.
• michaelcampbell 3y ago
  Reader-mode in browser of choice makes this more palatable.
• smitty1e 3y ago
  The tension between free software, ethics, and running a business continues to fascinate. If there were a way for an FSF-adjacent company to have a user-owned business model that could both: a) maintain fidelity with FSF goals and ethics b) also do the hard-nosed business decisions that are needful. As a decades-long FSF member, I'd cheerfully support subscribing to a set of email/search services, assuming technical heft. The two mindsets seem hard to harmonize.
• asgeirtj 3y ago
  Clearly the article writer has no clue about how AI works.
• replwoacause 3y ago
  The author of this post sounds like an obnoxious person frankly.
• OOPMan 3y ago
  Interesting post, honestly feels like the NFT cult: Discord full of true believers, leader with wildly optimistic takes on everything, nonsensical profit model. I will say, however, that the authors one comment "Vlad is one of those people who thinks not everything is political" annoyed me a bit. I get that for people living in the US it can seem like everything is political but I don't think it is and more importantly, I don't think it's a healthy attitude. Not everything is political but there are certainly people who will try their best to make it seem that way, usually as a means to engage in politicing, often with unpleasant results. I can judge the Kagi founder negatively for a lot of things in the post but this isn't one of them and it's a weird little jab to throw in that says more about the author of the post than the Kagi guy.
• galina700 3y ago
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• devilsAdv0cate 3y ago
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• steakscience 3y ago
  I wish Neeva still existed.