10 ms·

If architects had to work like programmers (1995)

501 points by cebert 3y ago

BillyTheMage 3y ago
As a handyman who does small repairs and remodeling, this is exactly how it is.
- vrosas 3y ago
  Yeah I’m on the client side of this now with a new home, trying to vaguely describe a vision to contractors who have great questions about problems and decisions I hadn’t even thought about. I’m sorry for myself.
dkarl 3y ago
If?
teeray 3y ago
Also, I don’t care how you accomplish this work, but you must atomize your anticipated work into individual bite-sized and estimated tasks. Your estimates need not be accurate, but you will be held accountable if you run over your estimates and be met with suspicion if your estimates are arbitrarily deemed too high. You will be left to execute these tasks as you see fit, but you must report progress on them daily in a one-hour meeting along with every other architect working on entirely unrelated work. You may be asked to repeat this same oral update in other meetings. These meetings may be time consuming, but you will still be expected to meet your time estimates. During this project to design my house, there may be periods of time when I may require you to assist with architectural emergencies, such as stabilizing the Leaning Tower of Pisa. These emergencies supersede your work and may come at any hour of the day or night, but should not impact your time estimates.
- vrosas 3y ago
  Your firm’s partners have hired BCG to streamline the home building process. Your home and every other one in the neighborhood that your coworkers have been designing will be left to rot and most of you will be let go. Some of you will be reassigned to design horse stables and indoor pools for a more profitable market segment.
  - reactordev 3y ago
    Your neighborhood was sold to an HOA. All houses must conform to new rules, reporting, and ever increasing fees until all revenue is squeezed from the premises. Violators will be fined Fibonacci derived value amounts or forfeit their property to the HOA. If you are still around by this time. Your equity is worthless.
    - RCitronsBroker 3y ago
      Fibonacci derived values is wayyy too un-arbitrary
- fatherzine 3y ago
  <big tech> the building must make $10b/year in revenue, or else you are all fired.
  - blkhawk 3y ago
    .... more than last year or you are all fired.
  - gorbachev 3y ago
    ...and if any individual room isn't profitable in any quarter of the year, I need the ability to detach it from the building and dump it. I don't care about any furniture inside, dump it too.
    - xgkickt 3y ago
      Each room must be constructed of experimental materials so we can claim an R&D tax credit on them before dumping them.
- ip26 3y ago
  It's suddenly not ridiculous at all if you map PM to general contractor and SWE to tradespeople.
  - disgruntledphd2 3y ago
    Well to be fair, most construction projects are bid on a fixed-price basis with overages, and there's normally a limitation of when stuff can be changed. Generally, the optimal strategy for a construction company/contractor is to go in with a low fixed price bid and screw them on the extras that your specialists have identified will be necessary, but the general contractor/engineers have missed. Source: I used to price construction jobs back in the day, and heard a lot of horror/joy stories. I think my college education was partially funded by these kinds of mess-ups, as my dad worked in construction.
- mgoetzke 3y ago
  The last part is what constantly destroys me :)
  - ZaoLahma 3y ago
    For extra amusement, make it so that you have responsibility without authority. I.e. you know what is broken and roughly how to fix it and in everyone's view it absolutely is your responsibility to "git'erdone", but you can't since you either don't have access or resources to do what needs doing and you won't get the access or the resources due to office politics or some other equally unfixable issue. That's a fun little stress-biscuit to eat.
    - adrianmsmith 3y ago
      Or you literally aren't allowed to fix it, while it also being your responsibility to fix it. For example you see are responsible for fixing problem X, so you go to do it, and are told that X isn't on the planning board this month (because problem X hadn't occurred yet when planning happened at the start of the month) therefore you aren't allowed to work on it. But in other meetings, it's your fault it's not fixed, X is your job after all.
      - peteradio 3y ago
        Now this is podracing I mean Agile! - Aintworkin Scumwalker
      - Qwertious 3y ago
        Responsibility without authority is a game of "stop hitting yourself".
    - whstl 3y ago
      > For extra amusement, make it so that you have responsibility without authority. Ah! The good old recipe for burnout.
    - dxxth 3y ago
      This is very real in the context of many locked down, tightly-regulated industries such as DoD manufacturing gigs with poorly-managed webs of IT and Engineering infrastructure. Data governance and security, change and configuration management, are all cross functional teams with their own political priorities, cultures, budgets, and requirements. Sometimes even separate tools anf platforms with zero integration or worse, financial redundancy. It is pain to work in such an environment.
- happymellon 3y ago
  Your pencil to draw the diagrams will be managed by a completely different person, you are not allowed to sharpen it yourself. However that person may not be available as they will be sharpening everyone else's pencils, as well as adjusting desks. They are all from Blue Pants, so won't work the same time shifts as you
  - archerx 3y ago
    My last job was almost this. My question is how does it get to that point?
    - pyrale 3y ago
      My best explanation is that some people believe that project management can be completely oblivious to the nature of the work to be done, and still be useful. To them, maximizing their ability to make choices about the way work will be done means they have more ability to take the good decisions that will lead the project to a successful end.
    - arkh 3y ago
      People whose only knowledge of management stopped at factory work in the 1920s.
    - happymellon 3y ago
      Someone up top found a cheaper supplier of pencils. Unfortunately these are cheap pencils, so the graphite keeps breaking. People are spending too much time sharpening their pencils, besides a good pencil sharpener is expensive. The solution is to get a sharpener person to move the sharpener about to save everyone time. However they are expensive to employ so we are going to outsource it because sharpening pencils are not our core business. It always starts as cheaping out on the free soda. Unless, as was also mentioned, someone is a project/product manager without actually understanding the business.
    - techcode 3y ago
      Was your last job a place with more focus on quarterly business cycle and less if any on longer term? It might even be that there's seemingly a lot of long term goals/objectives/focus. If it's mostly strategic level plans/talks/etc, while day to day things are still planned, executed and evaluated on half-year and even just quarterly period - it seemingly ends same as not having longer term plans.
- qprofyeh 3y ago
  There isn’t a more accurate description of “corporate agile” than exactly this. It’s a joke, and the joke’s on us.
  - devsda 3y ago
    If I'm ever telling stories to my future grand kids, they will definitely hear about the terror regime of an evil king named Agile .
    - arethuza 3y ago
      You are assuming that Agile can be killed? At this point I'm thinking that it has seeped into the very nature of the world - like Morgoth's Ring.
  - TurboHaskal 3y ago
    Left an otherwise good job because of this. I am done with it. For the next job I take, I will demand to be present in the daily meeting to see how it looks like. Ideally, there isn't one.
- sage76 3y ago
  > you must atomize your anticipated work into individual bite-sized and estimated tasks Based on a 2 line description from a product manager, so you actually have no clue on the scope of the task until you start working on it. This is how at my last company, my team got every estimate wrong and engineers got fired. Yes the salt is real.
- reacharavindh 3y ago
  Oh an remember, before you can design a house, you need to build a scaffolding using the same tools one would to build a warehouse, make sure it is earthquake proof, nuclear threat proof, hurricane category 7 proof, forest fire proof etc regardless of whether there are forests, earthquake geology, or hurricanes nearby. After all, you can be proud that you followed the same principles that unicorn architects who build warehouses used successfully to _their_ needs.
- Fire-Dragon-DoL 3y ago
  You forgot to add, your estimates need to use an artificial, non-agreedu-upon unit that differs per person and that varies (decreases) as you find new work that's simpler than the simplest work you have ever encountered. And then, you will be held accountable for that number, even if (supposedly), doesn't represent time and even if the interpretation of your estimate must use the unit that the person holding you acciuntable. Wow as I re-read this statement, it's completely insane
- Viliam1234 3y ago
  OK, now please build the second floor. We need it fully completed and functional a.s.a.p. However, do not build the first floor yet, because I am still waiting for some important decisions to be made.
Ygg2 3y ago
Honestly not complicated enough. PPPS. House will might be sent to the moon or Mariana trench. Make sure it can sustain these pressures. PPPPS. This goes for trailer as well. Additionally we need a plan to deploy it on a neutron star.
- kmoser 3y ago
  Assume it will be a spherical house in a vacuum. Except when it isn't.
  - Ygg2 3y ago
    Assume sphere is also a square. Not a cube. A Square.
    - datadrivenangel 3y ago
      Square sphere is requirement. Still sphere even though non-circular.
- nicewarmvalley 3y ago
  Mariana trench is easy, make a thicker hull. Now try hot patching a house in interstellar space built after the 1977 housing standard.
demondemidi 3y ago
The person who wrote this doesn't know any building architects who serve the wealthy. Rich people who want custom homes often want to design it themselves, and then get extremely annoyed when confronted with the reality of basic design principles, usability, materials, structural integrity, etc. And then like to change their plans last minute once they actually start to see it framed in (assuming they don't freak out because they've never seen framing before and don't realize it isn't done yet). Or perhaps one of their rich friends made a glib comment or a jab while being shown the foundation and now the customer wants both their kids to have their own recital hall, because one isn't enough. Another stellar example: someone wanted a garage put above their kitchen because they wanted to park their ferrari next to their bedroom on the second floor. Damn the exhaust fumes.
- angarg12 3y ago
  > someone wanted a garage put above their kitchen because they wanted to park their ferrari next to their bedroom on the second floor. You mean this guy? https://youtu.be/Us8mDKUaX2M?si=qnrckuGLyWzoFNAe&t=1515 https://youtu.be/Us8mDKUaX2M?si=qnrckuGLyWzoFNAe&t=1515
  - defrost 3y ago
    At the time, aspirationally, maybe. The next morning, after they sobered up, more like this guy: https://youtu.be/fqgrOl1q9p8?t=5 https://youtu.be/fqgrOl1q9p8?t=5
  - maximus-decimus 3y ago
    I love how he's saying it's convenient because that gives you 2 parking spots... as if they can't afford to have room for a second parking space that doesn't block the car you put on the second floor while there's a tonne of empty space just in front of the garage door lol.
  - demondemidi 3y ago
    It's like living in a mall, I guess i'm just a boring plebe who likes cozy spaces.
- 3y ago
ninetyninenine 3y ago
There is merit in the opposite concept where programmers are working like architects/(other engineers outside of programming). The problem is nobody cares about that style because although people die when a building falls, nobody dies when a program crashes. At least most of the time, nobody dies.
doubloon 3y ago
most of any job is listening to people. doesnt matter if you are a president or a janitor. people want things but they dont know exactly how or why, most of all they just want to feel that you have listened to them about their problem. and then done your best to help them.
- waynesonfire 3y ago
  yes, i need to feel heard. thanks for the specs and see you at tomorrows standup!
- bruce511 3y ago
  This 100%. We've discovered, especially in small customers, it's worth finding out if the payer, and user, are the same person. In some places the new house is being built for folk who are happy with the old house. And if the users don't want to change they can sabotage the project away. It's worth finding out, before any money is spent, just how devoted to thd project the owner is. As in, if push comes to shove, who gets fired, the architect or the monther-in-law?
- jq-r 3y ago
  While this sounds nice in a vacuum, I don't think that the reality for many people over here. Its usually: "our product needs X, get it done". You can listen to that manager for hours or days, use your psychiatrist hat to extract more useful info, renegotiate requrements etc, but that doesn't save you from probably weeks or months of just hard work. I would understand if one is a contact person for some account. And then you listen to your client as best you can, write up a doc/ticket/whatever for someone else to deal with that. A janitor who listens most of the time isn't really a good janitor so this is much less universal than it sounds.
elteto 3y ago
Oh so this guy has a spec? Must be nice.
aorloff 3y ago
We are not far off from the point where these kinds of constraint sets can produce designs. JitX is doing this for circuit boards. Houses are probably simpler, although people are more complex about their home.
kmoser 3y ago
Also, I am a visual and tactile person so I would need you to build a mock-up of this house in advance, preferably 1:1 scale, and fully functional so I can see how it will function. If I am dissatisfied with any aspect of the house, I expect you to rebuild it from scratch, only faster since you have already had practice building it once before, so how hard could it be to build it again while incorporating my changes?
- Groxx 3y ago
  What is this, a house for ants? How am I expected to live in this? Scale it up! It's already built, so I expect it on the lot tomorrow.
- 6510 3y ago
  Odd that no one mentioned my favorite? The house must be rebuild in the same location while I'm using it and the transition to the new house must be seamless. The garage must be rebuild with the car in it, the kitchen floor and counter top must be replaced while the dishwasher and the oven are running, I must be able to shower and stay in my tub during the bath room replacement, you must rebuild the bedroom discreetly while I'm having sex, toilets must be rebuild while in use.
  - Groxx 3y ago
    "hot-swappable toilets" was not a mental picture I expected to have today
    - ZaoLahma 3y ago
      Let's hope they at least allow you to wait for a flush to pipe so you won't have to carry over the user's transaction.
      - datadrivenangel 3y ago
        Zero downtime is a requirement.
oivey 3y ago
This is really some next level victimhood. Building houses often does involve dealing with whiny homeowners/builders with bad taste and no clue who want everything but also don’t want to pay. That’s the job. Good software engineers know working with stakeholders and users is also the job. I’ll add another shocker: sometimes blueprints are poorly specified and/or incorrect. And yet, people build the houses. That’s the job!
- al_borland 3y ago
  I’d be more accepting of these things from outside clients. I am less accepting of it from internal stakeholders.
- twelvechairs 3y ago
  Yes. Conversely if programmers had to work like Architects they'd be paid a fraction, not get promoted to run serious projects until they are 50+, work copious unpaid overtime, not be allowed to work from home, be held legally liable for their work, spend most of their days focussing on compliance rather than outcomes, be more client focussed than they have ever considered regardless of above, etc.
  - oivey 3y ago
    Yes, and, if they wanted to just build to a spec like a construction worker, they’d get to look forward to getting paid even worse still, physically demanding labor, working in the hot, working in the cold, shitting in boiling portapotties, and shitting in frozen portapotties.
  - throwitaway222 3y ago
    Some architects get hired to do a 50 unit apartment complex for 200k that only takes them a few months. The owners of those businesses farm it out to a junior to do the entire thing, then look over it quickly. Said junior usually only does this for a maximum of 10 years and graduates to owning their own business. However 85% of them graduate to running a drafter business which just draws plans.
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cortesoft 3y ago
This sounds like a perfect example of a "cocktail party idea", with programmers thinking they know how other fields operate. I am sure an architect could write a similar post about programmers, with just as many false assumptions and misunderstandings about what the job actually takes. https://danluu.com/cocktail-ideas/ https://danluu.com/cocktail-ideas/
- YetAnotherNick 3y ago
  > I am sure an architect could write a similar post about programmers Yes and I would like it.
  - eastbound 3y ago
    Yes. Try justifying jobs paid 700€/day every day for years.
- endofreach 3y ago
  That would actually be a very, very interesting read.
  - krisoft 3y ago
    I don't have an article for you, but this is a topic I discussed with a friend who works as an architect of buildings. His main points were: - programming is way easier because you get instantaneous feedback[1]. When he has an idea it will take sometimes tens of years for it to be realised. (if ever) - the rules they operate under are not deterministic. They might design a building which is totally fine under one interpretation of the regulations and fails under an other. Sometimes what actually changed is not even the interpretation of the rules, but things outside of their control such as the political favours of the investors behind the building. If plan reviewers want to find some problem with your thing they will. - builders replace materials and techniques often, sometimes even without discussing it with the architects. In programming you don't have to worry that your compiler cheapens out and replaces the doubles you declared with single floats. - With programming if you don't like what you made you just rewrite it[1]. With his line of work once you know know that something is wrong it is way too late to change anything. Heaps of money has been spent and years are passed. Because of reputational and liability reasons this leads to a mindset where you are unlikely to accept that there was ever anything wrong with your idea thus architects become solidly set in their thinking. - Everything he thinks is mediated through layers and layers of other people. If something goes wrong he can always blame the builder, or the owner or the occupier. This leads to even less honest self-reflection. 1: A common theme in all of this is that what he has experience with is very small scale coding. He knows that a compiler provides instant feedback on syntax errors and he thinks that is all there to software development. We who work in the industry know that feedback loops are not always that fast in Software Engineering , but those parts of the work were not experienced by him.
MASNeo 3y ago
Further, please ensure strict privacy of anyone entering the house but at the same time allow for good communication among everyone. Also, make sure only authorized people can enter or see what’s happening inside and keep everyone very safe from fires, physical harm or other people. Unfortunately, the safety must be accomplished without additional cost or restrictions in use.
- jameshart 3y ago
  The house is also going to be located in a unincorporated neighborhood where crime is rampant and law enforcement can do nothing to help. The house must nevertheless be secure from vandalism, arson, theft, installation of listening devices, verbal abuse or assault of visitors, or access by terrorists or people on global sanctions lists. I don’t plan on buying any insurance, the police won’t investigate any wrongdoing, and I don’t plan on paying security guards. But the house has to be open to the public. The people who will attempt to abuse or assault the house range from gangs of bored teenagers, through organized crime gangs, up to the intelligence agencies and militaries of major hostile nations. Good luck.
raldi 3y ago
Also I expect you to mow the lawn every two weeks and replace roof shingles whenever necessary.
croes 3y ago
Architects can't simply release a patch or update after they delivered, so programmers have it better unless you program for NASA or medical devices. Same with any craftsmanship. If they botch something they have to start all over again, sometimes they can't. Compared to that being a programmer is easy.
- fendy3002 3y ago
  counterpoint: because it can be patched / updated, client will want it patched / updated. The worse thing on programming, it's hard to estimate a task because it's very dependent on the software architecture. If we're talking about building, you'll know the estimates of adding a sink on a specific room / floor vs adding another floor on the roof. Both need to be reviewed by the blueprints and whether the foundation support another floor if we're talking the later. In software it should be similar, however most of the time management isn't aware of the software architecture and the challenge to make the change. Adding a button to change some value may take either hours to days depending on the architecture, same with adding a sink may take days to months depending on the plumbing blueprint. Which is why in software, sometimes management ask you to add 50 floors to an existing 100 floors building and simultaneously change all the electricity placements on all floors, in under 3 months.
- osigurdson 3y ago
  >> Architects can't simply release a patch or update after they delivered Some changes are trivial, others are like moving to a new standard for railroad widths.
  - arethuza 3y ago
    It's easy - just like changing which side of the road a country drives on - phase it so that cars change over one day and lorries the next and buses the day after that....
swozey 3y ago
If I had to spend the amount of time and consideration on every merge to main that an architect probably has to spend on every minor change that might lead to a safety or regulatory or, whatever else you can come up with had to, I'm sure I'd get absolutely no work done and be a ball of stress. I'm incredibly grateful that I work on cattle not pets, or humans.
rovek 3y ago
Fun but I prefer the previous version about a bridge building team https://www.stilldrinking.org/programming-sucks https://www.stilldrinking.org/programming-sucks - Second section
- charles_f 3y ago
  This one predates it by 20y, do I don't think it qualifies as a "previous version". But thanks for sharing, it's quite fun
issafram 3y ago
He was being too nice
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andrewstuart 3y ago
It's a false analogy. Programming has a lot more in common with portrait painting or sculpting than building something physical like a house. It is very hard and expensive to change physical things, software is relatively easily comparatively to change. Because software is changeable and pliable, it is practical to not make all decisions in advance.
NoPicklez 3y ago
What is this post trying to achieve. To me these "what it's like in comparison to x" post just try to exaggerate and overblow the Programmers life whilst downplaying an Architects. Almost all of these points just illustrate that every project based profession has similar pain points. It's also ignorant to assume you know what it's like to be an architect or what another profession is like for that matter unless you have worked in both fields.
Semiapies 3y ago
Also, I want it to do everything that this really cool house I saw does. But, I only want to pay for a day or two of labor in order to accomplish every feature that massive contruction project had, plus this one key feature that that house didn't have. What? You can't do that? My husband/ son/ nephew/ gardener knows how to draw with pencils, I can have them do it if you won't see reason!
MeImCounting 3y ago
Having worked in construction/contracting I can say that architects usually get badmouthed on the jobsite for being totally ignorant of the actual intricacies of construction and finishing. Obviously this isnt always true but it still made me smile to see something that could be interpreted as a bit of goodhearted architect bashing on HN tonight.
petre 3y ago
If Architects had to work like this, you'd likely earn a reputation as a cheapskate and get the "sorry but we're busy with other projects" line, or get the design for a barn from some desperate junior architect.
hooby 3y ago
That's a very funny take - but I wonder how architects feel about it, because I'm pretty sure that there is similar stuff happening when designing houses... The biggest difference though probably is, that the architect who creates the blue prints - will not be involved in the actual construction work. Therefore the blue-print (which the customer signed off on) has to be ground truth.
- brudgers 3y ago
  It’s similar, because clients are clients. But with a good chance of not being paid. And with direct personal liability that cannot be shielded with a corporate entity; and professional license requirements; and building codes enforced by governments… And of course if you fuck up, people may die. The article captures another aspect of architecture as well: ordinary people assume living in a house and using buildings gives them informed opinions on architectural matters. But that’s just people.
  - moooo99 3y ago
    But isn’t the risk you’re describing mostly tied to the actual engineer implementing or adjusting the design the architects come up with? No clue how that works in the US, but here most of the calculations are being done by an engineer with a different education than an architect.
    - brudgers 3y ago
      No.
LAC-Tech 3y ago
I love it. Any more of these? I love 80s and 90s programming humour. Real programmers don't eat quiche, story of mel, etc.
jillesvangurp 3y ago
A common misconception with software architecture and software design is assuming that this is somehow separate from your program and something you create before you start programming. In most projects, this is limited to some preliminary scribbling on a whiteboard and some random musings in a wiki or issue tracker. But it used to be that people were very serious about waterfall and wasted lots of time on this. But if you think about it, an architectural drawing for a building is essentially an executable recipe for building a house that the construction team uses to build it. I.e. it's actually very similar to a program. It tells the team of builders all they need to know to build the building. In the software world, the blue prints actually are executable. That's the whole point. The job of programming is essentially just creating a very detailed blueprint in some language. The compiler/interpreter then generates the executable from this blue print. The only difference here is that we replaced the team of construction workers with another program the construction process is automated and does not involve any people. This wasn't always the case, the word compiling refers to people stacking together punch cards in the right order. The first computers were humans flipping switches, doing calculations, and messing around with cables, punch cards and what not. The word debugging refers to removing actual live (or dead) bugs from circuitry. Writing a program used to mean creating a plan to task these people to do all these things. Having a plan for that is kind of crucial. Exactly like having an architecture blue print for a building is important. That's what a program is: a blueprint for creating/generating instructions that a computer can work with. Ada Lovelace, widely recognized as the first programmer, never even had access to a computer. She was designing software for a machine that did not yet exist. But she was a programmer and not an architect. Having a separate program for producing the program just isn't a thing (well except for meta programming of course). Just like having a blue print for a blue print for a bridge or a building is not really a thing. There's just the blueprint. And just like programmers have to do a lot of problem solving while they create their blue prints (programs), architects have to do a lot of problem solving while they are creating their blueprints. It's this problem solving that make their jobs hard and unpredictable. Once you have the blueprint, things get relatively straightforward and predictable. But before that, buildings are just as risky and unpredictable as software programs are. You have to deal with requirements, budgets, regulations, flaky customers, etc. This can get really complicated and risky. That's why large engineering projects run over budget so often. And ironically, agile engineering is actually a thing too now. E.g. SpaceX iterates on their rockets rather than designing them years in advance: real world engineering is learning from software engineering.
mcapodici 3y ago
Sounds like an episode of grand designs.
spintin 3y ago
The biggest thing missing from this is you have to build a brick house with a hammer and nails or a wooden house with mortar. The premise of micro-services where lost in complexity, the whole point always was "you should be able to select the tools you like".
- AndyPa32 3y ago
  As an architect and tech consultant I mostly advise against going all in on microservices. And when I do recommend them, tooling is never part of the argument. Organizational and team structures are.
ako 3y ago
It’s wrong to think programming is similar to construction. Creating new products consists of a product design phase and a product manufacturing phase. The first part finishes with a precise and tested design (so probably needs (digital) prototypes that can be tested), manufacturing just creates those design with as accurate as possible. Architects and software engineers are both part of the product design phase, software engineers deliver the first version of a product that can be tested (that can include multiple iteration, and new versions of an already finished version of the product). Product manufacturing in IT mostly consists of getting a copy of the product to the end user, either by creating an actual copy, or by allowing all users to have access to the final version created by product design. Software engineering is part of design, you’re part of getting the requirements and design final, don’t expect just to manufacture according to finalized designs. Architect simply look at the bigger picture design, components and interfaces, whereas engineers have a smaller focus. Architect are usually just engineers with more experience so they have more experience with the bigger picture design.
- osigurdson 3y ago
  >> Architect are usually just engineers with more experience I don't think that is true at all. These are distinct fields.
rurban 3y ago
kommt hin. I worked both as professional architect and programmer. Thanksfully, I could tame my SW clients, but heard enough stories of totally incapable PM's who accept such clients. But we also had similar "Bauherren", esp. in politics. German politicians are famous for demanding the "eierlegendewollmilchsau" in construction. I even had specialized jobs to deal with such clients, such as e.g. in stage design. There was a whole SW VR project to be able to show the client his absurdities beforehand.
andy_ppp 3y ago
Well, knowing an architect quite well they have exactly the same issues as we do of poor specifications that change, quite often due to unforeseen things on site. While a single person might be smart, people in general are idiots.
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rightbyte 3y ago
I used to laught at these joke chain mails. E.g. the "If programmer made cars" chain mail. But the sad reality is that programming mispractices have spread like a plague to other engineering discliplines. Even total BS like agile have been forced on other poor engineers in totally different sectors. So programming didn't evolve into an engineering discipline, we brought everyone else down with us! The royal we, as in The Man, by the way. I did nothing wrong. Leave me alone. :)
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tdudhhu 3y ago
If you read the work of Christopher Alexander you will notice he is proposing a much leaner method for building. For example: start by marking the position of the front door on the property and lay out the living room with sticks and wire so you can decide where you want to look at while sitting on your couch. And I believe he was right. Building lean can be done but does not fit in the 'architectual way'.
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bentobean 3y ago
This, but each sentence as a separate Slack DM with its own corresponding “Whack Whack” sound.
isoprophlex 3y ago
"If you tell me how much time a task will take, please don't specify the time in hours or days, but use these made up 'points' that mean different things to different people" Also, many commenters saying this is in bad taste, badmouthing architects or assuming a victimized 'hurr programming is so hard' stance. I read it differently, as a critique of the software industry itself, about how we're utterly unable to get our clients to understand the realities of our work. Noone in their right mind would ask for a house with 2-to-42 bedrooms. Yet the average IT worker somehow accepts this as normal in their software work. It would behoove us to get our clients to understand this, and not delegate that task to the scrumlords... who generally only make things more confusing and complex.
robertlagrant 3y ago
> At this time, for example, it is not appropriate to be choosing the color of the carpet. However, keep in mind that my wife likes blue. This made me chuckle. Captures the mentality perfectly.
lr4444lr 3y ago
Once "Agile" methodology effectively won in this industry, any hope of actually bringing software development into an "engineering" discipline was dead. I'm not saying there aren't positives to doing things that way, but it's got a lot to do with why the satire of this article rings true.
psychoslave 3y ago
Related links: https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/5z1vh/if_architects_had_to_work_like_programmers/ https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/5z1vh/if_archi... https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/9hwmh/if_architects_had_to_work_like_web_designers/ https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/9hwmh/if_archi... https://www.linkedin.com/posts/namanaggarwal_if-architects-had-to-work-like-programmers-activity-7165996262599675905-UKbf/ https://www.linkedin.com/posts/namanaggarwal_if-architects-h...
deleted 3y ago
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lp4vn 3y ago
Architecture is a kind of traditional professional that inherited its practices and methods from a time where there was a respect for the craftmanship that the activity requires. Programming is a profession that, with the exception of a few early decades, practically started in the corporate world. Modern day development is what you can expect when companies have unchecked autonomy over a whole professional field. That's why an abomination like scrum exists where you are guilty tripped everyday in dailys having to report what you have done even though management and your colleagues have access to your tickets with your logged hours and the code you have commited to the repository. I love programming but the only thing that keeps me in the field today is the pay, the moment I start to earn less I leave the field and go to work in something else.
alibarber 3y ago
Completely unrealistic. There's no way a developer would be allowed to talk to the client.
nercury 3y ago
Bytes aren't bricks. Reshuffling them from scratch after a smallest change is cheap and fast. Taking advantage of that is not stupid. Proper communication and work with client is a skill, and architects have to deal with stupid requests too! If's fun little article, but is a bit short-sighted. Probably because otherwise it would not work.
scott_w 3y ago
Articles (and the ensuing comments) always miss something major: construction and software are not even remotely the same thing. For example, in construction you have: * Architect (designs the building) * Designer (prepares the technical drawings) * Engineer (signs off the drawings) * Manufacturing (makes building parts to the drawings) * Surveyors (make sure the land can be built on) * Builders (build the building) * Roofers (put the roof on) * Site managers (make sure the builders build the building) * Building Control (government sign-off on the built building) * Sparkies (put wires in) * Plumbers (put the pipes in) * Plasterers (put the plaster on the walls) * Painters/decorators (finish the walls) * Fitters (put everything else in) All of these are separate businesses and I'm sure I've missed some things, or misnamed others. And, despite a number of people being legally liable for shoddy work, we still see things like Grenfell happen. Software engineering, by contrast: * Product manager (figures out what to make) * Designer (figures out how it should work/look) * Software engineer (writes the code) * Auditor (compliance with relevant standards e.g. PCI DSS or SOC2) There's also a bunch of stuff supporting that but I left them out because I'd add 5x more on the construction side. My point isn't to say who has it harder, or which field is "better," just to point out that the fields aren't comparable at all.
- ourmandave 3y ago
  This, honestly. I just read a quote (that I can't find) along the lines of, "no one asks a builder to remove the second floor and install a pool in the basement."
  - TremendousJudge 3y ago
    You'd be surprised.
- rrgok 3y ago
  Finally someone who sees for what a shit of a job Software Engineer has become. You can see my post/comment history here on HN, that I argue exactly this. We are doing too much.
  - 3y ago
bmitc 3y ago
This is missing "and your life is made a living hell by having to use other architects' unfinished work and without blueprints".
sonpython 3y ago
I use chatGPT4 to create the design you want. https://i.imgur.com/EVIL8wg.png https://i.imgur.com/EVIL8wg.png
spzb 3y ago
The entire house must be built on a cloud because clouds are cool. Clouds provide no structural stability and are completely inappropriate for this project so you'll need to build loads of scaffolding to hold everything together which should be concealed by the presence of the cloud.
mattacular 3y ago
It could have been me 15 years ago but these days I find this kind of attitude to be frankly very whiny. Building software lends itself to change and iteration more readily than building in the physical world. As an industry or discipline, it is also vastly younger (and therefore immature) compared with eg. our shared knowledge of how to do construction projects that has developed over thousands of years. The realm of what is possible and impossible is also much different. A laypersons understanding of what goes into building a home versus building a web application are much different.
sidewndr46 3y ago
This seems misplaced. My understanding is in most of the western world, architects can't actually design buildings anyways. They would need a PE for that, which they may not have. So instead they work with engineers and the process may more or less go as described. I have seen plenty of buildings that had last minute changes made, including jackhammering through the floors the minute the concrete had cured.
websitescenes 3y ago
This is a description of a poorly run process and lack of product management. Clients will ask for dumb stuff regardless if it’s a building or piece of software. It’s our job to educate and guide. If a client is un-guidable, then fire them!
smugma 3y ago
This is also how actual architects feel about requirements given by their clients.
collyw 3y ago
> And can you build me a small shed just to make sure you can do your work before I hire you.
charles_f 3y ago
So first off, this is almost 30yo, predates agile. You can tell that, because the bullshit detector reveals only 3 words. A lot of people are saying "construction and software are very different". This is fair, but this is not how I read it. The point being conveyed is not that the methods used in software don't make sense in construction, or that we're using the wrong method in software because construction does it differently, but to outline the outlandishness of certain expectations in software and of software devs (extreme flexibility, ridiculous cost, taking in the needs of the planet, doing all the jobs) that, dare I say, didn't change much in the 29y since this was written. That these are bytes and those are bricks don't change that thise expectations are unrealistic, and that post makes that point in a funny way.
lasereyes136 3y ago
Build software isn't like building physical things. Software and physical things operate under different constraints. All analogies are are wrong or off but some are insightful. The insight here is that people expect things not based on reality but on desire. With architecture there is a process to give the architect leverage to say no to ridiculous requests, architects need to be licensed, which is hard to get. We have no such leverage in IT so we get threatened with "do it or I will find someone that will" and businesses are always trying to find that cheaper someone or group of people that will do the work they have in their head on time, for a cheap budget, and without asking a lot of questions like "why do you think I would know something you didn't say or write down".
hn30000 3y ago
Ironically, much of this sounds like a high-end residential client. At least in software you get paid decently. Source: have worked in arch and tech.
class3shock 3y ago
This makes me want to write a post, "If programmers had to work like mechanical engineers". There is much overlap, dealing with changing requirements, fickle clients, struggles with realities of moving from design to production, etc. but imagine if a program crashing had the same legal, monetary, and personal safety implications as a cars brakes failing? To put it another way, there's a reason Toyota has an order of magnitude more employees but a comparable networth to Adobe and it's not because doing things in the real world is easier.
EchoChamberMan 3y ago
I'm pretty sure the author was writing something called "humor", and is not intending to actually compare architects to programmers. The fact people are taking this so seriously is concerning, though not surprising.
aryehof 3y ago
I think for many it would be more like… “bah! you don't need no plans or design! I’m an agile™ architect and will lay brick using microbrickservices™ and the runnyconcreteframework™ and see where we go from there”

501 points by cebert 3y ago

BillyTheMage 3y ago

As a handyman who does small repairs and remodeling, this is exactly how it is.

vrosas 3y ago
Yeah I’m on the client side of this now with a new home, trying to vaguely describe a vision to contractors who have great questions about problems and decisions I hadn’t even thought about. I’m sorry for myself.

dkarl 3y ago

If?

teeray 3y ago

Also, I don’t care how you accomplish this work, but you must atomize your anticipated work into individual bite-sized and estimated tasks. Your estimates need not be accurate, but you will be held accountable if you run over your estimates and be met with suspicion if your estimates are arbitrarily deemed too high. You will be left to execute these tasks as you see fit, but you must report progress on them daily in a one-hour meeting along with every other architect working on entirely unrelated work. You may be asked to repeat this same oral update in other meetings. These meetings may be time consuming, but you will still be expected to meet your time estimates. During this project to design my house, there may be periods of time when I may require you to assist with architectural emergencies, such as stabilizing the Leaning Tower of Pisa. These emergencies supersede your work and may come at any hour of the day or night, but should not impact your time estimates.

vrosas 3y ago
Your firm’s partners have hired BCG to streamline the home building process. Your home and every other one in the neighborhood that your coworkers have been designing will be left to rot and most of you will be let go. Some of you will be reassigned to design horse stables and indoor pools for a more profitable market segment.
- reactordev 3y ago
  Your neighborhood was sold to an HOA. All houses must conform to new rules, reporting, and ever increasing fees until all revenue is squeezed from the premises. Violators will be fined Fibonacci derived value amounts or forfeit their property to the HOA. If you are still around by this time. Your equity is worthless.
  - RCitronsBroker 3y ago
    Fibonacci derived values is wayyy too un-arbitrary
fatherzine 3y ago
<big tech> the building must make $10b/year in revenue, or else you are all fired.
- blkhawk 3y ago
  .... more than last year or you are all fired.
- gorbachev 3y ago
  ...and if any individual room isn't profitable in any quarter of the year, I need the ability to detach it from the building and dump it. I don't care about any furniture inside, dump it too.
  - xgkickt 3y ago
    Each room must be constructed of experimental materials so we can claim an R&D tax credit on them before dumping them.
ip26 3y ago
It's suddenly not ridiculous at all if you map PM to general contractor and SWE to tradespeople.
- disgruntledphd2 3y ago
  Well to be fair, most construction projects are bid on a fixed-price basis with overages, and there's normally a limitation of when stuff can be changed. Generally, the optimal strategy for a construction company/contractor is to go in with a low fixed price bid and screw them on the extras that your specialists have identified will be necessary, but the general contractor/engineers have missed. Source: I used to price construction jobs back in the day, and heard a lot of horror/joy stories. I think my college education was partially funded by these kinds of mess-ups, as my dad worked in construction.
mgoetzke 3y ago
The last part is what constantly destroys me :)
- ZaoLahma 3y ago
  For extra amusement, make it so that you have responsibility without authority. I.e. you know what is broken and roughly how to fix it and in everyone's view it absolutely is your responsibility to "git'erdone", but you can't since you either don't have access or resources to do what needs doing and you won't get the access or the resources due to office politics or some other equally unfixable issue. That's a fun little stress-biscuit to eat.
  - adrianmsmith 3y ago
    Or you literally aren't allowed to fix it, while it also being your responsibility to fix it. For example you see are responsible for fixing problem X, so you go to do it, and are told that X isn't on the planning board this month (because problem X hadn't occurred yet when planning happened at the start of the month) therefore you aren't allowed to work on it. But in other meetings, it's your fault it's not fixed, X is your job after all.
    - peteradio 3y ago
      Now this is podracing I mean Agile! - Aintworkin Scumwalker
    - Qwertious 3y ago
      Responsibility without authority is a game of "stop hitting yourself".
  - whstl 3y ago
    > For extra amusement, make it so that you have responsibility without authority. Ah! The good old recipe for burnout.
  - dxxth 3y ago
    This is very real in the context of many locked down, tightly-regulated industries such as DoD manufacturing gigs with poorly-managed webs of IT and Engineering infrastructure. Data governance and security, change and configuration management, are all cross functional teams with their own political priorities, cultures, budgets, and requirements. Sometimes even separate tools anf platforms with zero integration or worse, financial redundancy. It is pain to work in such an environment.
happymellon 3y ago
Your pencil to draw the diagrams will be managed by a completely different person, you are not allowed to sharpen it yourself. However that person may not be available as they will be sharpening everyone else's pencils, as well as adjusting desks. They are all from Blue Pants, so won't work the same time shifts as you
- archerx 3y ago
  My last job was almost this. My question is how does it get to that point?
  - pyrale 3y ago
    My best explanation is that some people believe that project management can be completely oblivious to the nature of the work to be done, and still be useful. To them, maximizing their ability to make choices about the way work will be done means they have more ability to take the good decisions that will lead the project to a successful end.
  - arkh 3y ago
    People whose only knowledge of management stopped at factory work in the 1920s.
  - happymellon 3y ago
    Someone up top found a cheaper supplier of pencils. Unfortunately these are cheap pencils, so the graphite keeps breaking. People are spending too much time sharpening their pencils, besides a good pencil sharpener is expensive. The solution is to get a sharpener person to move the sharpener about to save everyone time. However they are expensive to employ so we are going to outsource it because sharpening pencils are not our core business. It always starts as cheaping out on the free soda. Unless, as was also mentioned, someone is a project/product manager without actually understanding the business.
  - techcode 3y ago
    Was your last job a place with more focus on quarterly business cycle and less if any on longer term? It might even be that there's seemingly a lot of long term goals/objectives/focus. If it's mostly strategic level plans/talks/etc, while day to day things are still planned, executed and evaluated on half-year and even just quarterly period - it seemingly ends same as not having longer term plans.
qprofyeh 3y ago
There isn’t a more accurate description of “corporate agile” than exactly this. It’s a joke, and the joke’s on us.
- devsda 3y ago
  If I'm ever telling stories to my future grand kids, they will definitely hear about the terror regime of an evil king named Agile .
  - arethuza 3y ago
    You are assuming that Agile can be killed? At this point I'm thinking that it has seeped into the very nature of the world - like Morgoth's Ring.
- TurboHaskal 3y ago
  Left an otherwise good job because of this. I am done with it. For the next job I take, I will demand to be present in the daily meeting to see how it looks like. Ideally, there isn't one.
sage76 3y ago
> you must atomize your anticipated work into individual bite-sized and estimated tasks Based on a 2 line description from a product manager, so you actually have no clue on the scope of the task until you start working on it. This is how at my last company, my team got every estimate wrong and engineers got fired. Yes the salt is real.
reacharavindh 3y ago
Oh an remember, before you can design a house, you need to build a scaffolding using the same tools one would to build a warehouse, make sure it is earthquake proof, nuclear threat proof, hurricane category 7 proof, forest fire proof etc regardless of whether there are forests, earthquake geology, or hurricanes nearby. After all, you can be proud that you followed the same principles that unicorn architects who build warehouses used successfully to _their_ needs.
Fire-Dragon-DoL 3y ago
You forgot to add, your estimates need to use an artificial, non-agreedu-upon unit that differs per person and that varies (decreases) as you find new work that's simpler than the simplest work you have ever encountered. And then, you will be held accountable for that number, even if (supposedly), doesn't represent time and even if the interpretation of your estimate must use the unit that the person holding you acciuntable. Wow as I re-read this statement, it's completely insane
Viliam1234 3y ago
OK, now please build the second floor. We need it fully completed and functional a.s.a.p. However, do not build the first floor yet, because I am still waiting for some important decisions to be made.

Ygg2 3y ago

Honestly not complicated enough. PPPS. House will might be sent to the moon or Mariana trench. Make sure it can sustain these pressures. PPPPS. This goes for trailer as well. Additionally we need a plan to deploy it on a neutron star.

kmoser 3y ago
Assume it will be a spherical house in a vacuum. Except when it isn't.
- Ygg2 3y ago
  Assume sphere is also a square. Not a cube. A Square.
  - datadrivenangel 3y ago
    Square sphere is requirement. Still sphere even though non-circular.
nicewarmvalley 3y ago
Mariana trench is easy, make a thicker hull. Now try hot patching a house in interstellar space built after the 1977 housing standard.

demondemidi 3y ago

The person who wrote this doesn't know any building architects who serve the wealthy. Rich people who want custom homes often want to design it themselves, and then get extremely annoyed when confronted with the reality of basic design principles, usability, materials, structural integrity, etc. And then like to change their plans last minute once they actually start to see it framed in (assuming they don't freak out because they've never seen framing before and don't realize it isn't done yet). Or perhaps one of their rich friends made a glib comment or a jab while being shown the foundation and now the customer wants both their kids to have their own recital hall, because one isn't enough. Another stellar example: someone wanted a garage put above their kitchen because they wanted to park their ferrari next to their bedroom on the second floor. Damn the exhaust fumes.

angarg12 3y ago
> someone wanted a garage put above their kitchen because they wanted to park their ferrari next to their bedroom on the second floor. You mean this guy? https://youtu.be/Us8mDKUaX2M?si=qnrckuGLyWzoFNAe&t=1515 https://youtu.be/Us8mDKUaX2M?si=qnrckuGLyWzoFNAe&t=1515
- defrost 3y ago
  At the time, aspirationally, maybe. The next morning, after they sobered up, more like this guy: https://youtu.be/fqgrOl1q9p8?t=5 https://youtu.be/fqgrOl1q9p8?t=5
- maximus-decimus 3y ago
  I love how he's saying it's convenient because that gives you 2 parking spots... as if they can't afford to have room for a second parking space that doesn't block the car you put on the second floor while there's a tonne of empty space just in front of the garage door lol.
- demondemidi 3y ago
  It's like living in a mall, I guess i'm just a boring plebe who likes cozy spaces.
3y ago

ninetyninenine 3y ago

There is merit in the opposite concept where programmers are working like architects/(other engineers outside of programming). The problem is nobody cares about that style because although people die when a building falls, nobody dies when a program crashes. At least most of the time, nobody dies.

doubloon 3y ago

most of any job is listening to people. doesnt matter if you are a president or a janitor. people want things but they dont know exactly how or why, most of all they just want to feel that you have listened to them about their problem. and then done your best to help them.

waynesonfire 3y ago
yes, i need to feel heard. thanks for the specs and see you at tomorrows standup!
bruce511 3y ago
This 100%. We've discovered, especially in small customers, it's worth finding out if the payer, and user, are the same person. In some places the new house is being built for folk who are happy with the old house. And if the users don't want to change they can sabotage the project away. It's worth finding out, before any money is spent, just how devoted to thd project the owner is. As in, if push comes to shove, who gets fired, the architect or the monther-in-law?
jq-r 3y ago
While this sounds nice in a vacuum, I don't think that the reality for many people over here. Its usually: "our product needs X, get it done". You can listen to that manager for hours or days, use your psychiatrist hat to extract more useful info, renegotiate requrements etc, but that doesn't save you from probably weeks or months of just hard work. I would understand if one is a contact person for some account. And then you listen to your client as best you can, write up a doc/ticket/whatever for someone else to deal with that. A janitor who listens most of the time isn't really a good janitor so this is much less universal than it sounds.

elteto 3y ago

Oh so this guy has a spec? Must be nice.

aorloff 3y ago

We are not far off from the point where these kinds of constraint sets can produce designs. JitX is doing this for circuit boards. Houses are probably simpler, although people are more complex about their home.

kmoser 3y ago

Also, I am a visual and tactile person so I would need you to build a mock-up of this house in advance, preferably 1:1 scale, and fully functional so I can see how it will function. If I am dissatisfied with any aspect of the house, I expect you to rebuild it from scratch, only faster since you have already had practice building it once before, so how hard could it be to build it again while incorporating my changes?

Groxx 3y ago
What is this, a house for ants? How am I expected to live in this? Scale it up! It's already built, so I expect it on the lot tomorrow.
6510 3y ago
Odd that no one mentioned my favorite? The house must be rebuild in the same location while I'm using it and the transition to the new house must be seamless. The garage must be rebuild with the car in it, the kitchen floor and counter top must be replaced while the dishwasher and the oven are running, I must be able to shower and stay in my tub during the bath room replacement, you must rebuild the bedroom discreetly while I'm having sex, toilets must be rebuild while in use.
- Groxx 3y ago
  "hot-swappable toilets" was not a mental picture I expected to have today
  - ZaoLahma 3y ago
    Let's hope they at least allow you to wait for a flush to pipe so you won't have to carry over the user's transaction.
    - datadrivenangel 3y ago
      Zero downtime is a requirement.

oivey 3y ago

This is really some next level victimhood. Building houses often does involve dealing with whiny homeowners/builders with bad taste and no clue who want everything but also don’t want to pay. That’s the job. Good software engineers know working with stakeholders and users is also the job. I’ll add another shocker: sometimes blueprints are poorly specified and/or incorrect. And yet, people build the houses. That’s the job!

al_borland 3y ago
I’d be more accepting of these things from outside clients. I am less accepting of it from internal stakeholders.
twelvechairs 3y ago
Yes. Conversely if programmers had to work like Architects they'd be paid a fraction, not get promoted to run serious projects until they are 50+, work copious unpaid overtime, not be allowed to work from home, be held legally liable for their work, spend most of their days focussing on compliance rather than outcomes, be more client focussed than they have ever considered regardless of above, etc.
- oivey 3y ago
  Yes, and, if they wanted to just build to a spec like a construction worker, they’d get to look forward to getting paid even worse still, physically demanding labor, working in the hot, working in the cold, shitting in boiling portapotties, and shitting in frozen portapotties.
- throwitaway222 3y ago
  Some architects get hired to do a 50 unit apartment complex for 200k that only takes them a few months. The owners of those businesses farm it out to a junior to do the entire thing, then look over it quickly. Said junior usually only does this for a maximum of 10 years and graduates to owning their own business. However 85% of them graduate to running a drafter business which just draws plans.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

cortesoft 3y ago

This sounds like a perfect example of a "cocktail party idea", with programmers thinking they know how other fields operate. I am sure an architect could write a similar post about programmers, with just as many false assumptions and misunderstandings about what the job actually takes. https://danluu.com/cocktail-ideas/ https://danluu.com/cocktail-ideas/

YetAnotherNick 3y ago
> I am sure an architect could write a similar post about programmers Yes and I would like it.
- eastbound 3y ago
  Yes. Try justifying jobs paid 700€/day every day for years.
endofreach 3y ago
That would actually be a very, very interesting read.
- krisoft 3y ago
  I don't have an article for you, but this is a topic I discussed with a friend who works as an architect of buildings. His main points were: - programming is way easier because you get instantaneous feedback[1]. When he has an idea it will take sometimes tens of years for it to be realised. (if ever) - the rules they operate under are not deterministic. They might design a building which is totally fine under one interpretation of the regulations and fails under an other. Sometimes what actually changed is not even the interpretation of the rules, but things outside of their control such as the political favours of the investors behind the building. If plan reviewers want to find some problem with your thing they will. - builders replace materials and techniques often, sometimes even without discussing it with the architects. In programming you don't have to worry that your compiler cheapens out and replaces the doubles you declared with single floats. - With programming if you don't like what you made you just rewrite it[1]. With his line of work once you know know that something is wrong it is way too late to change anything. Heaps of money has been spent and years are passed. Because of reputational and liability reasons this leads to a mindset where you are unlikely to accept that there was ever anything wrong with your idea thus architects become solidly set in their thinking. - Everything he thinks is mediated through layers and layers of other people. If something goes wrong he can always blame the builder, or the owner or the occupier. This leads to even less honest self-reflection. 1: A common theme in all of this is that what he has experience with is very small scale coding. He knows that a compiler provides instant feedback on syntax errors and he thinks that is all there to software development. We who work in the industry know that feedback loops are not always that fast in Software Engineering , but those parts of the work were not experienced by him.

MASNeo 3y ago

Further, please ensure strict privacy of anyone entering the house but at the same time allow for good communication among everyone. Also, make sure only authorized people can enter or see what’s happening inside and keep everyone very safe from fires, physical harm or other people. Unfortunately, the safety must be accomplished without additional cost or restrictions in use.

jameshart 3y ago
The house is also going to be located in a unincorporated neighborhood where crime is rampant and law enforcement can do nothing to help. The house must nevertheless be secure from vandalism, arson, theft, installation of listening devices, verbal abuse or assault of visitors, or access by terrorists or people on global sanctions lists. I don’t plan on buying any insurance, the police won’t investigate any wrongdoing, and I don’t plan on paying security guards. But the house has to be open to the public. The people who will attempt to abuse or assault the house range from gangs of bored teenagers, through organized crime gangs, up to the intelligence agencies and militaries of major hostile nations. Good luck.

raldi 3y ago

Also I expect you to mow the lawn every two weeks and replace roof shingles whenever necessary.

croes 3y ago

Architects can't simply release a patch or update after they delivered, so programmers have it better unless you program for NASA or medical devices. Same with any craftsmanship. If they botch something they have to start all over again, sometimes they can't. Compared to that being a programmer is easy.

fendy3002 3y ago
counterpoint: because it can be patched / updated, client will want it patched / updated. The worse thing on programming, it's hard to estimate a task because it's very dependent on the software architecture. If we're talking about building, you'll know the estimates of adding a sink on a specific room / floor vs adding another floor on the roof. Both need to be reviewed by the blueprints and whether the foundation support another floor if we're talking the later. In software it should be similar, however most of the time management isn't aware of the software architecture and the challenge to make the change. Adding a button to change some value may take either hours to days depending on the architecture, same with adding a sink may take days to months depending on the plumbing blueprint. Which is why in software, sometimes management ask you to add 50 floors to an existing 100 floors building and simultaneously change all the electricity placements on all floors, in under 3 months.
osigurdson 3y ago
>> Architects can't simply release a patch or update after they delivered Some changes are trivial, others are like moving to a new standard for railroad widths.
- arethuza 3y ago
  It's easy - just like changing which side of the road a country drives on - phase it so that cars change over one day and lorries the next and buses the day after that....

swozey 3y ago

If I had to spend the amount of time and consideration on every merge to main that an architect probably has to spend on every minor change that might lead to a safety or regulatory or, whatever else you can come up with had to, I'm sure I'd get absolutely no work done and be a ball of stress. I'm incredibly grateful that I work on cattle not pets, or humans.

rovek 3y ago

Fun but I prefer the previous version about a bridge building team https://www.stilldrinking.org/programming-sucks https://www.stilldrinking.org/programming-sucks - Second section

charles_f 3y ago
This one predates it by 20y, do I don't think it qualifies as a "previous version". But thanks for sharing, it's quite fun

issafram 3y ago

He was being too nice

deleted 3y ago

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andrewstuart 3y ago

It's a false analogy. Programming has a lot more in common with portrait painting or sculpting than building something physical like a house. It is very hard and expensive to change physical things, software is relatively easily comparatively to change. Because software is changeable and pliable, it is practical to not make all decisions in advance.

NoPicklez 3y ago

What is this post trying to achieve. To me these "what it's like in comparison to x" post just try to exaggerate and overblow the Programmers life whilst downplaying an Architects. Almost all of these points just illustrate that every project based profession has similar pain points. It's also ignorant to assume you know what it's like to be an architect or what another profession is like for that matter unless you have worked in both fields.

Semiapies 3y ago

Also, I want it to do everything that this really cool house I saw does. But, I only want to pay for a day or two of labor in order to accomplish every feature that massive contruction project had, plus this one key feature that that house didn't have. What? You can't do that? My husband/ son/ nephew/ gardener knows how to draw with pencils, I can have them do it if you won't see reason!

MeImCounting 3y ago

Having worked in construction/contracting I can say that architects usually get badmouthed on the jobsite for being totally ignorant of the actual intricacies of construction and finishing. Obviously this isnt always true but it still made me smile to see something that could be interpreted as a bit of goodhearted architect bashing on HN tonight.

petre 3y ago

If Architects had to work like this, you'd likely earn a reputation as a cheapskate and get the "sorry but we're busy with other projects" line, or get the design for a barn from some desperate junior architect.

hooby 3y ago

That's a very funny take - but I wonder how architects feel about it, because I'm pretty sure that there is similar stuff happening when designing houses... The biggest difference though probably is, that the architect who creates the blue prints - will not be involved in the actual construction work. Therefore the blue-print (which the customer signed off on) has to be ground truth.

brudgers 3y ago
It’s similar, because clients are clients. But with a good chance of not being paid. And with direct personal liability that cannot be shielded with a corporate entity; and professional license requirements; and building codes enforced by governments… And of course if you fuck up, people may die. The article captures another aspect of architecture as well: ordinary people assume living in a house and using buildings gives them informed opinions on architectural matters. But that’s just people.
- moooo99 3y ago
  But isn’t the risk you’re describing mostly tied to the actual engineer implementing or adjusting the design the architects come up with? No clue how that works in the US, but here most of the calculations are being done by an engineer with a different education than an architect.
  - brudgers 3y ago
    No.

LAC-Tech 3y ago

I love it. Any more of these? I love 80s and 90s programming humour. Real programmers don't eat quiche, story of mel, etc.

jillesvangurp 3y ago

A common misconception with software architecture and software design is assuming that this is somehow separate from your program and something you create before you start programming. In most projects, this is limited to some preliminary scribbling on a whiteboard and some random musings in a wiki or issue tracker. But it used to be that people were very serious about waterfall and wasted lots of time on this. But if you think about it, an architectural drawing for a building is essentially an executable recipe for building a house that the construction team uses to build it. I.e. it's actually very similar to a program. It tells the team of builders all they need to know to build the building. In the software world, the blue prints actually are executable. That's the whole point. The job of programming is essentially just creating a very detailed blueprint in some language. The compiler/interpreter then generates the executable from this blue print. The only difference here is that we replaced the team of construction workers with another program the construction process is automated and does not involve any people. This wasn't always the case, the word compiling refers to people stacking together punch cards in the right order. The first computers were humans flipping switches, doing calculations, and messing around with cables, punch cards and what not. The word debugging refers to removing actual live (or dead) bugs from circuitry. Writing a program used to mean creating a plan to task these people to do all these things. Having a plan for that is kind of crucial. Exactly like having an architecture blue print for a building is important. That's what a program is: a blueprint for creating/generating instructions that a computer can work with. Ada Lovelace, widely recognized as the first programmer, never even had access to a computer. She was designing software for a machine that did not yet exist. But she was a programmer and not an architect. Having a separate program for producing the program just isn't a thing (well except for meta programming of course). Just like having a blue print for a blue print for a bridge or a building is not really a thing. There's just the blueprint. And just like programmers have to do a lot of problem solving while they create their blue prints (programs), architects have to do a lot of problem solving while they are creating their blueprints. It's this problem solving that make their jobs hard and unpredictable. Once you have the blueprint, things get relatively straightforward and predictable. But before that, buildings are just as risky and unpredictable as software programs are. You have to deal with requirements, budgets, regulations, flaky customers, etc. This can get really complicated and risky. That's why large engineering projects run over budget so often. And ironically, agile engineering is actually a thing too now. E.g. SpaceX iterates on their rockets rather than designing them years in advance: real world engineering is learning from software engineering.

mcapodici 3y ago

Sounds like an episode of grand designs.

spintin 3y ago

The biggest thing missing from this is you have to build a brick house with a hammer and nails or a wooden house with mortar. The premise of micro-services where lost in complexity, the whole point always was "you should be able to select the tools you like".

AndyPa32 3y ago
As an architect and tech consultant I mostly advise against going all in on microservices. And when I do recommend them, tooling is never part of the argument. Organizational and team structures are.

ako 3y ago

It’s wrong to think programming is similar to construction. Creating new products consists of a product design phase and a product manufacturing phase. The first part finishes with a precise and tested design (so probably needs (digital) prototypes that can be tested), manufacturing just creates those design with as accurate as possible. Architects and software engineers are both part of the product design phase, software engineers deliver the first version of a product that can be tested (that can include multiple iteration, and new versions of an already finished version of the product). Product manufacturing in IT mostly consists of getting a copy of the product to the end user, either by creating an actual copy, or by allowing all users to have access to the final version created by product design. Software engineering is part of design, you’re part of getting the requirements and design final, don’t expect just to manufacture according to finalized designs. Architect simply look at the bigger picture design, components and interfaces, whereas engineers have a smaller focus. Architect are usually just engineers with more experience so they have more experience with the bigger picture design.

osigurdson 3y ago
>> Architect are usually just engineers with more experience I don't think that is true at all. These are distinct fields.

rurban 3y ago

kommt hin. I worked both as professional architect and programmer. Thanksfully, I could tame my SW clients, but heard enough stories of totally incapable PM's who accept such clients. But we also had similar "Bauherren", esp. in politics. German politicians are famous for demanding the "eierlegendewollmilchsau" in construction. I even had specialized jobs to deal with such clients, such as e.g. in stage design. There was a whole SW VR project to be able to show the client his absurdities beforehand.

andy_ppp 3y ago

Well, knowing an architect quite well they have exactly the same issues as we do of poor specifications that change, quite often due to unforeseen things on site. While a single person might be smart, people in general are idiots.

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rightbyte 3y ago

I used to laught at these joke chain mails. E.g. the "If programmer made cars" chain mail. But the sad reality is that programming mispractices have spread like a plague to other engineering discliplines. Even total BS like agile have been forced on other poor engineers in totally different sectors. So programming didn't evolve into an engineering discipline, we brought everyone else down with us! The royal we, as in The Man, by the way. I did nothing wrong. Leave me alone. :)

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tdudhhu 3y ago

If you read the work of Christopher Alexander you will notice he is proposing a much leaner method for building. For example: start by marking the position of the front door on the property and lay out the living room with sticks and wire so you can decide where you want to look at while sitting on your couch. And I believe he was right. Building lean can be done but does not fit in the 'architectual way'.

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bentobean 3y ago

This, but each sentence as a separate Slack DM with its own corresponding “Whack Whack” sound.

isoprophlex 3y ago

"If you tell me how much time a task will take, please don't specify the time in hours or days, but use these made up 'points' that mean different things to different people" Also, many commenters saying this is in bad taste, badmouthing architects or assuming a victimized 'hurr programming is so hard' stance. I read it differently, as a critique of the software industry itself, about how we're utterly unable to get our clients to understand the realities of our work. Noone in their right mind would ask for a house with 2-to-42 bedrooms. Yet the average IT worker somehow accepts this as normal in their software work. It would behoove us to get our clients to understand this, and not delegate that task to the scrumlords... who generally only make things more confusing and complex.

robertlagrant 3y ago

> At this time, for example, it is not appropriate to be choosing the color of the carpet. However, keep in mind that my wife likes blue. This made me chuckle. Captures the mentality perfectly.

lr4444lr 3y ago

Once "Agile" methodology effectively won in this industry, any hope of actually bringing software development into an "engineering" discipline was dead. I'm not saying there aren't positives to doing things that way, but it's got a lot to do with why the satire of this article rings true.

psychoslave 3y ago

Related links: https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/5z1vh/if_architects_had_to_work_like_programmers/ https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/5z1vh/if_archi... https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/9hwmh/if_architects_had_to_work_like_web_designers/ https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/9hwmh/if_archi... https://www.linkedin.com/posts/namanaggarwal_if-architects-had-to-work-like-programmers-activity-7165996262599675905-UKbf/ https://www.linkedin.com/posts/namanaggarwal_if-architects-h...

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lp4vn 3y ago

Architecture is a kind of traditional professional that inherited its practices and methods from a time where there was a respect for the craftmanship that the activity requires. Programming is a profession that, with the exception of a few early decades, practically started in the corporate world. Modern day development is what you can expect when companies have unchecked autonomy over a whole professional field. That's why an abomination like scrum exists where you are guilty tripped everyday in dailys having to report what you have done even though management and your colleagues have access to your tickets with your logged hours and the code you have commited to the repository. I love programming but the only thing that keeps me in the field today is the pay, the moment I start to earn less I leave the field and go to work in something else.

alibarber 3y ago

Completely unrealistic. There's no way a developer would be allowed to talk to the client.

nercury 3y ago

Bytes aren't bricks. Reshuffling them from scratch after a smallest change is cheap and fast. Taking advantage of that is not stupid. Proper communication and work with client is a skill, and architects have to deal with stupid requests too! If's fun little article, but is a bit short-sighted. Probably because otherwise it would not work.

scott_w 3y ago

Articles (and the ensuing comments) always miss something major: construction and software are not even remotely the same thing. For example, in construction you have: * Architect (designs the building) * Designer (prepares the technical drawings) * Engineer (signs off the drawings) * Manufacturing (makes building parts to the drawings) * Surveyors (make sure the land can be built on) * Builders (build the building) * Roofers (put the roof on) * Site managers (make sure the builders build the building) * Building Control (government sign-off on the built building) * Sparkies (put wires in) * Plumbers (put the pipes in) * Plasterers (put the plaster on the walls) * Painters/decorators (finish the walls) * Fitters (put everything else in) All of these are separate businesses and I'm sure I've missed some things, or misnamed others. And, despite a number of people being legally liable for shoddy work, we still see things like Grenfell happen. Software engineering, by contrast: * Product manager (figures out what to make) * Designer (figures out how it should work/look) * Software engineer (writes the code) * Auditor (compliance with relevant standards e.g. PCI DSS or SOC2) There's also a bunch of stuff supporting that but I left them out because I'd add 5x more on the construction side. My point isn't to say who has it harder, or which field is "better," just to point out that the fields aren't comparable at all.

ourmandave 3y ago
This, honestly. I just read a quote (that I can't find) along the lines of, "no one asks a builder to remove the second floor and install a pool in the basement."
- TremendousJudge 3y ago
  You'd be surprised.
rrgok 3y ago
Finally someone who sees for what a shit of a job Software Engineer has become. You can see my post/comment history here on HN, that I argue exactly this. We are doing too much.
- 3y ago

bmitc 3y ago

This is missing "and your life is made a living hell by having to use other architects' unfinished work and without blueprints".

sonpython 3y ago

I use chatGPT4 to create the design you want. https://i.imgur.com/EVIL8wg.png https://i.imgur.com/EVIL8wg.png

spzb 3y ago

The entire house must be built on a cloud because clouds are cool. Clouds provide no structural stability and are completely inappropriate for this project so you'll need to build loads of scaffolding to hold everything together which should be concealed by the presence of the cloud.

mattacular 3y ago

It could have been me 15 years ago but these days I find this kind of attitude to be frankly very whiny. Building software lends itself to change and iteration more readily than building in the physical world. As an industry or discipline, it is also vastly younger (and therefore immature) compared with eg. our shared knowledge of how to do construction projects that has developed over thousands of years. The realm of what is possible and impossible is also much different. A laypersons understanding of what goes into building a home versus building a web application are much different.

sidewndr46 3y ago

This seems misplaced. My understanding is in most of the western world, architects can't actually design buildings anyways. They would need a PE for that, which they may not have. So instead they work with engineers and the process may more or less go as described. I have seen plenty of buildings that had last minute changes made, including jackhammering through the floors the minute the concrete had cured.

websitescenes 3y ago

This is a description of a poorly run process and lack of product management. Clients will ask for dumb stuff regardless if it’s a building or piece of software. It’s our job to educate and guide. If a client is un-guidable, then fire them!

smugma 3y ago

This is also how actual architects feel about requirements given by their clients.

collyw 3y ago

> And can you build me a small shed just to make sure you can do your work before I hire you.

charles_f 3y ago

So first off, this is almost 30yo, predates agile. You can tell that, because the bullshit detector reveals only 3 words. A lot of people are saying "construction and software are very different". This is fair, but this is not how I read it. The point being conveyed is not that the methods used in software don't make sense in construction, or that we're using the wrong method in software because construction does it differently, but to outline the outlandishness of certain expectations in software and of software devs (extreme flexibility, ridiculous cost, taking in the needs of the planet, doing all the jobs) that, dare I say, didn't change much in the 29y since this was written. That these are bytes and those are bricks don't change that thise expectations are unrealistic, and that post makes that point in a funny way.

lasereyes136 3y ago

Build software isn't like building physical things. Software and physical things operate under different constraints. All analogies are are wrong or off but some are insightful. The insight here is that people expect things not based on reality but on desire. With architecture there is a process to give the architect leverage to say no to ridiculous requests, architects need to be licensed, which is hard to get. We have no such leverage in IT so we get threatened with "do it or I will find someone that will" and businesses are always trying to find that cheaper someone or group of people that will do the work they have in their head on time, for a cheap budget, and without asking a lot of questions like "why do you think I would know something you didn't say or write down".

hn30000 3y ago

Ironically, much of this sounds like a high-end residential client. At least in software you get paid decently. Source: have worked in arch and tech.

class3shock 3y ago

This makes me want to write a post, "If programmers had to work like mechanical engineers". There is much overlap, dealing with changing requirements, fickle clients, struggles with realities of moving from design to production, etc. but imagine if a program crashing had the same legal, monetary, and personal safety implications as a cars brakes failing? To put it another way, there's a reason Toyota has an order of magnitude more employees but a comparable networth to Adobe and it's not because doing things in the real world is easier.

EchoChamberMan 3y ago

I'm pretty sure the author was writing something called "humor", and is not intending to actually compare architects to programmers. The fact people are taking this so seriously is concerning, though not surprising.

aryehof 3y ago

I think for many it would be more like… “bah! you don't need no plans or design! I’m an agile™ architect and will lay brick using microbrickservices™ and the runnyconcreteframework™ and see where we go from there”