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The Ute Tribe will construct one of the largest solar farms in the US
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- Amorymeltzer 3y ago>Officials are planning to break ground on the construction of the Sun Bear Solar Farm later in 2024, with the goal of producing electricity in 2026. Annual capacity is estimated to be about 756 megawatts.
- 1970-01-01 3y agohttps://www.sunbearproject.com/ https://www.sunbearproject.com/
- doodlebugging 3y agoThanks for this link.
- Aachen 3y agoEuropean here. What kind of legal structure is tribe in this context? > “We, as the Ute Mountain Ute tribe, had been a fossil fuel tribe with oil and gas for a long time, probably over 50 years. Today, with the changes in legislation, global warming, and climate change, you can see the impact of what's happening to our world. I think I only ever heard tribe used to describe a group or maybe 10-30 hunter-gatherers, or perhaps the descendants of such a group, but this is clearly not that. It sounds more like it might be a municipality with jurisdiction over some city+-sized plot of land? Or is it like a church type of structure where anyone in the area can sign up to be a member? Or something completely different? I've tried looking up tribe but the definition I get is this > A unit of sociopolitical organization consisting of a number of families, clans, or other groups who share a common ancestry and culture and among whom leadership is typically neither formalized nor permanent. That doesn't sound like the type of structure to have a billion USD to invest. There's three definitions given but none of them fit the context here
- yCombLinks 3y agoNative American groups were pushed onto reservations in the 1800s. They have political autonomy. The groups are called tribes.
- stenius 3y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ute_people#Reservations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ute_people#Reservations
- wizerdrobe 3y agoThey tend to work in a capacity similar to a US State, e.g. Utah itself but there is a lot of variation and nuance from tribe to tribe and state to state. You will run into confusing situations where a county law enforcement official might patrol on a reservation because there is overlap or nebulous boundaries with the blessing (cross deputizarion) from the tribal law enforcement. However some tribes defer more of their governance to a Federal Bureau of Indian Affairs. For a largely autonomous example, the Cherokee in North Carolina are interesting. Largely funded by their casinos and now marijuana which is legal on their reservation but not the encompassing state of North Carolina. They have fairly strict rules around membership, such that a Cherokee that was shipped off to Oklahoma is not eligible for membership. Land ownership is based on tribal membership, not quite following standard American rules. It’s a fun deep dive to read up on their system.
- tired-turtle 3y agoWithin the context of the US, tribe can refer to a specific group of Native Americans. Group size is irrelevant, e.g. the Navajo Nation has the largest reservation and 165k members. Each tribe is free to determine its own legal structure, as it is a separate polity (a sovereign nation) from the US -- sort of. US federal law still applies on federal reservations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Americans_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Americans_in_the_United...
- CogitoCogito 3y agoDoes it matter if this group of people refers to itself as a “tribe” or a “nation” or something else? If they started referring to themselves as a “nation” for example, would anything change. In any case, it’s quite common in the US for groups like this to be referred to as a “tribe”. I guess today you’re one of the lucky 10,000.
- doodlebugging 3y agoSounds like a nice, sustainable economic boom for the Ute Tribe once they bring it online. Reading the slides from the biological/archaeological impact studies from Canigou Group shows that someone didn't proofread their slide. The burrowing owl study states that it is "Threatened with the State of Colorado but not Federally". It was probably supposed to say "Threatened within..." Good luck to the Utes. There is not much industry other than oil and gas exploration in that region unless recent interest in nuclear power generation has restarted local mining operations shut down in the 1970's that used to be large employers (and polluters) out there. EDIT: Following the link posted by another comment shows that the slide in this article has been corrected. The same slide on that link says "in" instead of "with".
- EasyMark 3y ago> Sounds like a nice, sustainable economic boom for the Ute Tribe once they bring it online. As long as they properly distribute the profits to tribe members. There have definitely been some boondoggles in the past that only help the 1% ers
- doodlebugging 3y agoThis is a problem with all tribes. Resource extraction on tribal land is not necessarily improving the living standards of all members of the tribe. It's the same story whether we look at oil and gas production, coal or mineral mining, hydroelectric power generation, timber production, or wind and solar energy production. Electing tribal leaders who will focus on improvements that spread the wealth and boost living standards can be as difficult for them as it is for other Americans to elect leaders who attempt to improve their constituent's lives and create opportunities for them. It is also a challenge, less so today than in the past, to find tribal members with the domain knowledge to be able to understand how all this can be put to best use for the benefit of all. Then you also need firewalls in place to prevent exploitation by multinational corporations with the domain expertise who use that to draft agreements that end up cheating the tribes out of profits that should go to the tribes. It's a hard problem since it is so endemic in the American business world and since many programs that are currently in place have no one conducting effective oversight to insure that business is conducted transparently and to the benefit of the ones owning the resources.
- hooo 3y agoDoes anyone have a breakdown of the materials required to create 2.2 million solar panels? I worry that we measure solar strictly on the carbon emissions and not the full environmental impact -- such as that of land and mining of materials. Edit: I'm not advocating fossil fuels. I think solar makes a ton of sense, but it also seems crazy to think we could build enough solar + storage capacity for the world. Nuclear energy is the real future.
- mstipetic 3y agoNo one has ever thought of that and for sure can’t be available through a basic Google search. Maybe I’m wrong but every time anything with renewables comes there’s comments spreading doubt with basic questions
- renewiltord 3y ago[dead]
- shermantanktop 3y agoWe also get brilliant insights about how solar panels don’t generate power at night.
- werdnapk 3y agoWhat do you propose as an alternative? Coal has to mine their source material. Oil has to drill for their source material. One is much cleaner than the others. Nuclear is where I think we should moving in a perfect world, but the general population is fairly misinformed on modern day nuclear power generation.
- hooo 3y agoI'm not against solar. I think a seriously massive nuclear build up makes sense. To the extent you get economies of scale and not every project is a bespoke effort.
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- Solvency 3y agoImagine if the US enabled/supported native tribes in things like land management, sustainable bison management, solar farms, and things that actually seek to improve the national health/fertility/ecosystem instead of the gross complex they've created for them now.
- wavefunction 3y agoThere's been a larger focus during the Biden administration on supporting indigenous peoples and improving and reforming the relationship between the US Federal government and these peoples. His administration appointed Deb Haaland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deb_Haaland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deb_Haaland) as the first Native American Secretary of the Interior. Interior is in charge of the Bureau of Indian Affairs and she's been leveraging her position to tackle some of those exact efforts you mentioned. In March of 2023 last year she announced $25,000,000 for bison restoration efforts which admittedly is not enough but it's better than previous administrations have managed. (https://apnews.com/article/bison-restoration-tribes-haaland-6f5ad9227c70377a94a2a4efc809f3d8 https://apnews.com/article/bison-restoration-tribes-haaland-...)
- loeg 3y agoIt's unclear how they will finance this $1B project or who they will sell the juice to. Is the tribe getting suckered into a bad deal?
- kitten_mittens_ 3y ago> who...will they sell the juice to? Utah is already a power exporter. Utah generates about one-fifth more electricity than it consumes, and the state is a net supplier of power to other states.[1] [1] https://www.eia.gov/state/analysis.php?sid=UT https://www.eia.gov/state/analysis.php?sid=UT
- loeg 3y agoThis tribe is in Colorado, not Utah, despite the name. Transmission is expensive; you'd rather sell locally. Before you finance a $1B project it would be good to have a sense of how you expect to sell the outputs!
- nyrikki 3y agoThere is a star of WECC transmission lines going all around the region just south of the Colorado border near ShipRock NM. Part of what made this project viable IMHO was the adjacency to existing WECC Interface Paths. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WECC_Intertie_Paths#/media/File:Western_US_electrical_power_transmission_map.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WECC_Intertie_Paths#/media/Fil...
- pixl97 3y agoSimply put, we're going to have to build transmission infrastructure in the US. Right now we get past a lot of that by bundling up coal and natural gas in trains and pipes and generating closer to the sink.
- justinwp 3y agoTransmission lines are already there because of the nearby decommissioned coal plant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Juan_Generating_Station https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Juan_Generating_Station
- Matthew_Stevens 3y agoFigured this out because I was curious- This would makeup about .17% of total US electricity consumption in 2022. Assuming 4 trillion kWh. https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/electricity/use-of-electricity.php#:~:text=Total%20U.S.%20electricity%20consumption%20in,year%20decreases%20occurred%20after%202007 https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/electricity/use-of-elect....
- loeg 3y agoAlso for context, the quoted 756MW figure is about 68% of a single AP1000 reactor.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- thinkcontext 3y agoToo bad no one wants to build AP1000s even though there is a site in FL with all approvals and the new Biden subsidy. That's how badly the two projects fucked up.
- lambda 3y agoAnd an AP1000 reactor costs about $6.8 billion to build, and substantially higher operating costs. 68% of the power for 14% of the price seems like a pretty good deal to me, there's a reason people are investing more in solar than nuclear, it's just more cost effective. edit: Oh, and that $6.8 billion looks optimistic. This project with two AP1000s looks like it costs $30 billion. https://www.ans.org/news/article-3949/vogtle-project-update-cost-likely-to-top-30-billion/ https://www.ans.org/news/article-3949/vogtle-project-update-...
- NegativeK 3y agoComparing just on W/$ feels like it's missing a bunch of additional problems with the power generation, such as nuclear risk or needing more than solar to cover a full year's electrical demand.
- photochemsyn 3y agoThe financial backer of the project (London-based Canigou Group) says they're looking into using the electricity for water -> hydrogen -> ammonia pathways, which is a way around the energy transport problem (the best places for solar are often not co-located with human populations). https://www.canigougroup.com/news/evaluation-of-green-hydrogen-and-ammonia-with-ira https://www.canigougroup.com/news/evaluation-of-green-hydrog... Methanol is another valuable endpoint, the Chinese version of this (CEEC Songyuan) is using the same approach but intends to make both ammonia and methanol.
- thelastgallon 3y agoLargest in US, but pretty small compared to whats coming up. Todays news, ~$12B in Philippines: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39408076 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39408076 Edit: 3.58B, not 12 from another comment. Still, pretty large investment for Philippines.
- 38 3y agoIsn't the actual size important, and not the money involved?
- thelastgallon 3y agoYes, actual size, but also relative to the size of their economy. Considering Philippines GDP, this is significant.
- throwboatyface 3y agoWhat's the GDP of the Ute nation? It's probably quite a significant investment for them as well.
- deaddodo 3y ago2.96bln USD So 35% of the Ute Nation's GDP vs 1.3% of the Phillipines. OP is clearly either uninformed or biased. Or just doesn't understand Tribal Sovereignty status in the US.
- nharada 3y agoDang they went out and found 400+ of a rare cactus and avoided building on them? Anyone know how they actually did that survey? Like someone just goes out for days at a time and looks?
- tfourb 3y agoNot sure how it went in that specific case but yes, these type of impact studies are usually hands on, you go out into the field with a bunch of people and comb an area completely. In case of a chip factory currently developed by Intel in Germany, they went out onto the 200ha (roughly 280 football fields) and found and resettled 7 rare hamsters. 2 of those had to be dug out: https://www.mdr.de/nachrichten/sachsen-anhalt/magdeburg/magdeburg/intel-eulenberg-boerde-hamster-umzug-100.html https://www.mdr.de/nachrichten/sachsen-anhalt/magdeburg/magd...
- nharada 3y agoThat's pretty wild. Do you much about this? It's kinda related to a project I'm working on and I'd be interested in chatting if so!
- tfourb 3y agoNot really. I’ve done academic fieldwork before but not specifically this type of environmental impact study.
- s1artibartfast 3y agoFor what it is worth, a lot of environmental work is very hands on. I have a friend who's full time job was to walk in front of tractors and make sure they don't run over snakes. Another who's job was part of a large team with the job walk power lines under construction and make sure birds don't nest in them. If they did nest, the construction project would be on hold for a year.
- araes 3y agoThat story is one of the weirder stories I've read on Hacker News recently. Cute though: "The last hamster of the fields gave a timid crow when Alexander Resetaritz drew it out of the construction on his paw and pushed it into the transport box."
- thelastgallon 3y agoI wonder if the tribes have enough autonomy to build transmission lines quickly. Just the Navajo Nation can build enough solar/wind and transmission lines within their reservation and probably connect to the grids in Colorado, New Mexico, Utah and Arizona. US is incredibly slow in building transmission lines, takes decades. And, if they have enough autonomy to import Chinese panels (50% cheaper), a network of these nations can blanket the entire country with renewables.
- xeonmc 3y agoThis would greatly enhance the usefulness of tribal-electricity.
- foreverobama 3y ago[dead]
- EasyMark 3y agoI know it took my local utility about 5 years just to run about 30 miles of HV wire from me seeing "announcment of public commentary" -> studies -> "final notice of commentary on route" -> building starts. The building itself took about 6 months, as it ran along a road I travel a lot. That's a long time for 30 miles of HV towers.
- adrianN 3y agoOh, I thought you wanted to tell an anecdote about a fast project. Five years sound very quick to me.
- sergiomattei 3y agoFive years is light speed in terms of public works! I felt the same way.
- 10u152 3y agoA freeway bypass/overpass is being built on a road I travel a lot. Funding and consultation started in 2004. Expected completion date 2029. Quarter of a century to build 8km of road.
- yieldcrv 3y ago> But also, it makes sense not to transmit power too far from where you are yep, they’ll waste the energy trying to transmit it sounds like they’re going to be attracting bitcoin miners. they’re the only use case that’s able to be in the middle of nowhere without needing other infrastructure, like robust internet. any other use cases you all know of?
- aorloff 3y agoPowering a casino
- yieldcrv 3y agoPeople have to commute to, well maybe. If more infrastructure comes up around there and people live there then its a nice long game.
- sunshinesnacks 3y ago> they’ll waste the energy trying to transmit it High voltage transmission lines are very efficient. On the order of 1-2% loses per 100 miles for 500 kV carrying 1000 MW [0]. [0] https://web.ecs.baylor.edu/faculty/grady/_13_EE392J_2_Spring11_AEP_Transmission_Facts.pdf https://web.ecs.baylor.edu/faculty/grady/_13_EE392J_2_Spring...
- theptip 3y agoDatacenter for AI training workloads.
- yieldcrv 3y agoThats pretty good if the data is already there, other data centers rely on heavier internet infrastructure
- novok 3y agoFiber lines have less power transmission loss than the equivalent power lines themselves. In this hypothetical build out I'm guessing the huge fiber runs would be part of it.
- throwaway420690 3y agoThey should definitely mine bitcoin. No transmission lines needed. Can use all of their excess power.
- lukan 3y ago"Having said that, we're going to be producing a large amount of power. So I'm not sure that all of it will be able to be consumed within Colorado." Hopefully they can attract further industry, that will consume that cheap energy close to production. Metal smelting ones for example.
- jeffbee 3y agoRefining lithium
- latchkey 3y agoMetal smelting has the often frowned upon side effect of generating super fund sites.
- adrianN 3y agoHm? What kind of dangerous chemicals do you need to turn for example bauxite into aluminium?
- latchkey 3y agohttps://cumulis.epa.gov/supercpad/cursites/csitinfo.cfm?id=0201690 https://cumulis.epa.gov/supercpad/cursites/csitinfo.cfm?id=0... https://massena-environmental-health-and-justice.org/superfund-sites-in-massena https://massena-environmental-health-and-justice.org/superfu...
- adrianN 3y agoTo save others a click > Alcoa released hazardous substances, including polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs), onto the facility property as well as into the Grasse River through four industrial outfalls I wonder for what you need PCBs in sufficient quantities to cause a superfund site.
- hinkley 3y agoAre the PCBs an input or the result of the chemistry?
- ayk3 3y agoContrast this news with that of LPEA from neighboring Durango area putting a stop to new solar installation due to maxing out energy needs https://www.durangoherald.com/articles/la-plata-electric-puts-brakes-on-new-solar-arrays-around-durango/ https://www.durangoherald.com/articles/la-plata-electric-put...
- KennyBlanken 3y agoPromote electric vehicles, heat pumps, inductive cooktops, and other decarbonization that would increase electricity demand since you've got a plethora of electricity? Nope. Incentivize home energy storage and invest in grid level energy storage and encourage purchasing EVs that can be used as grid batteries? Nope. Invest in better grid-level interconnects to export electricity? Nope. Work with the community to attract industry that uses lots of electricity and approach commercial/industrial users to find ways to decarbonize? Nope. Ban customers from new grid-intertied solar: YES. Engage in scare-mongering about solar causing fires and being dangerous or causing grid instability when grid-intertie systems have a slew of safety mechanisms? YES. Absolute morons. Also buried in that article: they signed a contract with their wholesale provider mandating that they can only generate 5% of their own electricity. The article claims, but does not explain, how this doesn't limit solar generation - there's a bunch of hand-waiving about how "it doesn't prohibit homeowners from generating solar power." That contract goes until 2050. Who looked at the electricity market and said "you know what? Let's sign a multi-decade contract, that seems smart!"?
- usefulcat 3y ago> A proposed solar farm on the Ute Mountain Ute Reservation will have 2.2 million solar panels > Annual capacity is estimated to be about 756 megawatts. 756 MW/year = ~2 MW/day = less than 1 watt per day per panel? I get that the sun doesn't shine 24/7, but even so that seems way off. What am I missing? Maybe the 756 MW figure is daily instead of annual?
- newyankee 3y agoMW is power, MWh is energy. So annual should be 7564.5365 MWh
- titzer 3y agoWatts are a rate (energy/time), you don't need to divide them by time again.
- patricklorio 3y ago756 MW is the peak power rate, not accumulated amount of power that will be generated per year.
- angm128 3y agoShould be more like 756 GWh
- dgacmu 3y agoThe article is bad, as so often happens with units... The project site: https://www.sunbearproject.com/ https://www.sunbearproject.com/ 971MW, producing up to 1700 to 2400 GWh/year. That puts it at 2471 hours/year of full-power production equivalent, or 28%. That's good - it's a nice area for solar.
- oaththrowaway 3y agoOff topic, but does anyone know if Ute tribes share money with each other for big projects like this? I'm pretty sure this tribe has a casino on their reservation, but I know the one in Utah doesn't, both get money from oil extraction, but I'm not sure if they are totally independent from each other?
- latchkey 3y ago> US is incredibly slow in building transmission lines, takes decades. A lot of bitcoin miners use stranded power, which would otherwise go to waste. People often respond to me on HN that the power could be easily/cheaply sent elsewhere for better uses [0]. Comments like this just re-enforce the fact that these people have literally no idea what they are talking about. Thanks, I'll favorite this one. =) [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39317583 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39317583
- nextaccountic 3y agoThere is no law of nature that says that the pace of US infrastructure improvements should be like that. It's a matter of policy. The US has built impressive projects before at a staggering rate, and they could do so in the future. (currently China is doing the same but on a larger scale. It shows it is possible if you have the political will) When people say that the power "could" be sent elsewhere, they are right, you just need to build the damn transmission lines. It's not rocket science.
- latchkey 3y agoI'm referring to the whole picture not just platitudes. The reality of the situation is that certainly a lot of stuff "could" happen, like Fusion and Nuclear power too.
- littlestymaar 3y agoHad fusion power recived a fraction of the funds that went to blockchain stuff over the past decade, we would be much closer indeed.
- latchkey 3y agoHad fusion power received a fraction of the funds that went to military wars over the past decade, we would be much closer indeed. My point is that whataboutism, is probably a bad take here.
- helsinkiandrew 3y ago> Having said that, we're going to be producing a large amount of power. So I'm not sure that all of it will be able to be consumed within Colorado.” That’s a surprisingly vague statement on a billion dollar project. I’d expect there would be spreadsheets and models estimating production/consumption locations for decades out and the company would be quoting a percentage figure even if that was a guesstimate.
- fnordpiglet 3y agoI’d note that in 2024 $1bb isn’t THAT much money. Further the constraints will likely have more to do with distribution infrastructure outside their control.
- psychlops 3y agoWhen people say things like that you know they aren't spending their own money.
- sitkack 3y agoThis could power data centers, then the only outside link needed is fiber optic lines.
- latchkey 3y agoCorrect. Data centers over casinos. But then again, those data centers could have bitcoin miners, at which point, we'd be back to the casino. =)
- alexpotato 3y agoWhenever I see comments about how slow public projects are these days, I think about this documentary: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/films/race-underground/ https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/films/race-under... It's a PBS special about the history of the Boston subway (which was one of the first in the nation). To give you an idea of what construction safety was like back then, they would routinely encounter gas lines, cut them WITHOUT turning off the gas, and keep working. Obviously, this led to lots of explosions but also very quick construction. If you are optimizing for speed over safety/environmental/etc it's pretty surprising how quickly you can build something.
- zdragnar 3y agoSafety usually isn't the problem. It's the public notice periods, feedback collection, final notices, environmental impact studies, lawsuits over whether the environmental impact studies were sufficient, possible need to get the government to invoke eminent domain, studies over which potential version of a project needs the least disruption, and so forth. Near where I live is a bridge over a river that needs replacing. The county had to study three different ways to do it, weighing environmental impact, traffic disruption, total cost of each option, and so forth. The planning and regulatory portion of the project is easily 75% of the timeline, and that's for a fast one due to the condition of the bridge itself. If it were less urgent, it would have likely taken even longer.
- AtlasBarfed 3y agoMeanwhile collapsed Minneapolis I-35W bridge (remember that? Gusset plates, etc?) got replaced in something like 7 months, they picked a colorado company and started construction very quickly. Of course a half dozen local construction companies filed suit but the bridge was built really fast. Right next door to that bridge are three other projects: a cliff/dirt collapse/erosion/retaining project that kept the river parkway closed for like 4 years, and two bridges being reconditioned that have been closed for 3. Those went through the "normal" channels.
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- 0xGod 3y agoIncredible news and momentum. The entire land will have an advanced smart renewable grid that scales to any size and is very fault-tolerant and self-recovering. It is beautiful to observe the Melting Pot producing great ideas and vast installations of great systems. Great job all around and it's encouraging to observe communities joining forces and brains to work on planet-scale problems. Godspeed, USA! The Melting Pot will continue to lead the world in producing cultural exchange and elevation for all communities. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
- wkat4242 3y agoLol a Ute in Australia means a pickup truck. I first thought it meant that lol.
- krupan 3y agoJust like damming rivers to generate carbon free energy turned them into lakes and changed the climate and ecosystems that we are trying to preserve, paving over many square miles of land with solar panels (that will all end up in landfills eventually) will change ecosystems and climates. Carbon gas is not the only thing we need to be focused on if preserving our earth the way it is is our goal. Low carbon and low footprint options like nuclear should be our top priority. All this focus on wind and solar power is a distraction from real long-term solutions to preserving our ecology and climate.
- tomrod 3y ago> we are trying to preserve That's the trick of it. Turns out "leave nothing but footprints, take nothing but pictures" philosophy doesn't scale. We can respect andanage nature while recognizing we are part of it too.
- defrost 3y ago> turned them into lakes and changed the climate Global climate? or strictly local area effects? Global nuclear currently generates approximately half the energy that hydropower does, and less than an eighth of that generated by coal and gas which is the goal to replace - to replace that with nuclear will take many many years which will then no longer be "low foot print". All this focus on wind and solar is largely because it is delivering replacement power now and at less cost than nuclear. > paving over many square miles of land with solar panels You can graze animals | have market gardens | etc. underneath you know (maybe you don't, perhaps you might wish to learn more). Solar farm trial shows improved fleece on merino sheep grazed under panels https://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2022-05-30/solar-farm-grazing-sheep-agriculture-renewable-energy-review/101097364 https://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2022-05-30/solar-farm-graz...
- newfriend 3y agotwo what? did you say Utes?
- ric0c1 3y agoSorry, but with the thousands of square miles of parking that we have in the US, it seems very very stupid to do greenfield solar power, particularly in one of the few zones where the ecosystem is preserved.