22 ms·

Goodbye Auth0

286 points by surprisetalk 3y ago

edent 3y ago
Join a Union. The bitter truth is your employer has a lot more lawyers than you do. For all the talk about how well-compensated and in-demand tech workers are, the reality is usually different. You need someone in your corner to help you fight for your rights. If you're a tech worker in the UK, you can get three months free membership at https://prospect.org.uk/join/ https://prospect.org.uk/join/
- pjmlp 3y ago
  Germany, IG Metal and Verdi are active on IT field.
  - martinsnow 3y ago
    Salaries in Germany are really low compared to Denmark and Norway.
    - hulitu 3y ago
      And how is the cost of living ?
    - pjmlp 3y ago
      I have done a quite decent life since 2004, can't complain.
- maxehmookau 3y ago
  Join. A. Union. https://utaw.tech/join/ https://utaw.tech/join/ also good. Think of it as having an employment lawyer on retainer for £8 a month. Well worth the money.
  - rakoo 3y ago
    In IT we have it pretty easy and can rebound without as much hassle as other domains, so we think we're kinda safe. We're not. Join a union when things are good, to help you when things are bad.
    - diggan 3y ago
      > In IT we have it pretty easy and can rebound without as much hassle as other domains, so we think we're kind safe. We're not. Seems even people in the US aren't actually that well off, as the author said they'd experience "acute financial stress" if it wasn't for the severance: > [...] and was told that the severance offered would give me at least a few months free from acute financial stress [...]
      - maxehmookau 3y ago
        Wait until America wakes up and reads this thread. The anti-union feeling over there is very peculiar to Europeans.
        tjpnz 3y ago
        I like the idea of unions but not in tech.. blah blah.. meritocracy.. yadda yadda.. I can't afford union fees on my 600k salary.. something something.
        sokoloff 3y ago
        I think for most it's not a matter of "can't afford", but rather closer to "don't think it's a use of money that will benefit me over the alternative." As a parallel: I can easily afford to buy a new car; I choose to buy used cars because it's a better use of money than the alternative. Many engineers are rational optimizers by nature.
        Draiken 3y ago
        I believe this discounts the very heavy anti-union propaganda that we've all been subject to since... forever. I'm not even from the US (I'm from Brazil) but here, similarly, most have a very bad view of unions, fueled by employers that, of course, don't want to give workers any power. It's always ironic when we see today's workers continuously losing rights that were achieved mostly through unions (with a fair share of blood) actively hate unions without ever truly looking into them. Smart people always assume they are immune to propaganda, and objectively investigating where those feelings come from is not something most take the time to do. Confirmation bias plays a big role here.
  - chippiewill 3y ago
    Unfortunately like student unions they don't keep the focus on their actual remit and delving into irrelevant politics: https://palestine.utaw.tech/advocate/ https://palestine.utaw.tech/advocate/
    - steffandroid 3y ago
      Not irrelevant at all, military technology is a large part of the UK's tech sector, and arms exports to countries with poor human rights records are in the billions.
    - rakoo 3y ago
      That all depends what a union is about to you. To me, it is totally on-topic.
      - dablya 3y ago
        So... not really like having a lawyer on retainer?
        rakoo 3y ago
        The point of a union, to me, is to get society to a point where you are in control of your life. You as an individual but also you as a group, regarding your origins, your gender, your sexual orientation, your skin color, or your place in the employer/employee relationship; in short, whenever you live a situation of oppression, be it small or large. Having a lawyer helps, because it helps you fight these attacks. But larger than that, changing the situation, the society, the relationships so that you do not undergo any oppression based on your situation. The goal, to me again, is to live in a more communal, solidarity-based environment. Telling about the genocide happening in Palestine because of their ethnicity, destroyed by their colonizer neighbor, and supporting them is totally on-topic.
- dontlaugh 3y ago
  And if you work in the games industry, there's https://www.gameworkers.co.uk/ https://www.gameworkers.co.uk/
- Vinnl 3y ago
  Anyone have any idea how this would/could work for a company with employees in many different countries? Especially if the number of employees in your own country is low? (Single or low double digits.)
  - edent 3y ago
    Each country has its own unique employment laws. So you would need a different Union in each country. In the UK, for example, it doesn't matter how small your employer is - you still have the right to have your Trade Union representative with you in certain meetings.
    - Vinnl 3y ago
      Right, having someone in meetings is nice, but I'm thinking more in terms of collective bargaining, being involved in layoffs (e.g. making sure that every effort has been made to move/retrain people) and all that.
      - edent 3y ago
        Again, this will depend on the laws in your country. Speak to someone local to you.
      - dontlaugh 3y ago
        It's true that collective bargaining units will be per country, since legally the employer will have an entity in each country that is subject to local laws. In practice, unions have international links and often collaborate in the case of an action relevant to the same employer in multiple countries. The details are very much case-specific.
  - diggan 3y ago
    > Anyone have any idea how this would/could work for a company with employees in many different countries? Technically, that company should have a subsidiary for each country they're employing people full-time in. So you'd work with the local union + local subsidiary, just like it was a local company.
- qaq 3y ago
  Well I worked in both EU(Ireland) and US for the same company on the same projects the comp difference is huge. So all the safety nets might buy you more peace of mind but pragmatically you are better off just having an extra rainy day fund from the portion of extra income you get in the US.
  - estebank 3y ago
    This is true, but the number of "hidden" fees associated with living in the US make the difference slightly less stark than it seems at first, and a catastrophic health event can set you back to 0. The difference is biggest when working in tech, of course, and for the most part it is usually still worth it, depending on desired lifestyle.
    - gwright 3y ago
      I'm trying to understand what are the "hidden fees". Different fees, extra fees, annoying fees (when compared to some other country) I can wrap my head around those, but what fees are "hidden"?
  - edent 3y ago
    If your comp was that much higher, surely a few bucks a month for Union membership would have been an incidental expense?
    - qaq 3y ago
      If I was sure it would not become just another layer of corporate bureaucracy one has to navigate sure. In my possibly biased experience the people climbing any type of power structure are same type personality wise be it union or corporation or goverment agency
- evantbyrne 3y ago
  How does joining a union prevent someone from being laid off after a merger? Unions have their place, but I'm skeptical that someone–especially a presumably high-paid employee–could collectively bargain their way out of a planned post-merger mass firing.
  - edent 3y ago
    It doesn't prevent someone getting laid off. It makes sure that the process is fair and legal. It ensures that at-risk individuals have a chance to apply for available internal roles. A Union can use their legal powers to enforce proper compensation for an individual who is laid off and that remaining staff are protected. Your question is a bit like asking "how does insurance stop my house catching on fire?" - it doesn't; it makes sure you have some protection if the worst happens.
    - evantbyrne 3y ago
      The tradeoff is that people lose their ability to bargain individually, which is why you rarely see unionization of high-paid workers in the US. I think whether it makes sense for an individual to unionize really depends on their ability to negotiate. The more highly paid that a worker is and the more unique their role is, the less they have to gain from unionization vs looking at internal job postings and hiring an attorney as needed.
      - edent 3y ago
        It absolutely does not mean that. Unions help set minimum standards, not maximum ones. I've worked in private companies where the maximum comp is set by management and they do not allow individual negotiations. And I've worked in heavily unionised organisations where I was able to negotiate a better deal for myself. Do you really think your unique talents will save you from a lecherous boss or protect you from being discriminated against? And, if you wanted to sue, how much will an attorney's retainer cost? Hint - probably a lot more than you Union dues!
        3y ago
rollulus 3y ago
I don’t get it why the US company layoff culture is so different from what I’m familiar with, the European one. What are they afraid of that people need to be locked out? That one brings a gun to work? Here you get laid off, get a notice, are expected to continue working for a while (but depending on your work ethic you’ll take it easy), consume your remaining PTO, complain to your coworkers about what happened during a farewell dinner. So much more humane.
- mrweasel 3y ago
  Honestly given Oktas recent security problems I don't blame them from be very pro-active in deactivating accounts, but the ways it's handled though is just inhumane. At least have the balls to call people, give them instructions and let them know that their account is being disabled during the call. For companies like Okta, and a few other high security positions, it's not uncommon for companies in Europe to simply pay people do to nothing for their remaining time.
- sushibowl 3y ago
  I think the answer is pretty simply due to the difference in laws. In the US no notice is legally required. As you noted, employees that already know their employment is shortly coming to an end generally don't perform to the same level. Therefore it is in the company's interest to give no advance notice whatsoever until employment is officially, actually terminated. In every European country, there's a legal requirement to give notice. And therefore there is an incentive for the company to maintain amicable relations during the notice period to try and prevent trouble.
  - gabrielgio 3y ago
    > In the US no notice is legally required. Required or allowed? So in the US you can't give notice?
    - dspillett 3y ago
      I think you've read that wrong. It is probably better phrased as “In the US, notice is not legally required”.
dm03514 3y ago
Auth0 truly did an amazing job on hiring for culture, being transparent and living their values. The pre-acquisition Glassdoor reviews were astounding and back this up. For myself, working at auth0 was truly life altering. It was the first time I was in a long standing multi-national environment. It was the first time I was deeply exposed to other cultures and ways of living. As a side effect of working at Auth0, This exposure completely reshaped my worldview and thoughts on luck and privilege. Watching Argentina inflation fluctuate as people I spent 8 hours a day with struggle to pay their bills and provide for their families as I live stably with no worry I really internalized how much pure raw luck plays in setting us up for life: Who we’re born to and where we’re born.
- EdSharkey 3y ago
  Word choice can help your thinking. We all receive different struggles and decide how to respond. The way you describe your 'luck', I read as "random good fortune" tinged with some guilt for being a 'have' when there are so many 'have-not's. I prefer 'blessed', and not in the corny #blessed way, to describe my condition. To me, I was given much because so much is expected of me by God, by universe and by my higher self. The extent to which I am blessed is a component of my calling to improve the total human condition. If you lean in to that way of thinking, you obligate yourself and that can be as heavy a burden as you choose to make it. That choice and the freedom to decide how to fulfill that obligation are a part of the blessing. To naval gaze and feel guilt is natural but fruitless stinkin' thinkin'. Motivating oneself with gratitude and humbling oneself by giving glory are ways to power through guilt.
  - _heimdall 3y ago
    > I prefer 'blessed', and not in the corny #blessed way, to describe my condition. To me, I was given much because so much is expected of me by God, by universe and by my higher self. How do you avoid this leading to a feeling that you, and anyone else "blessed", is more important that others? Should we really assume that the condition of one's life is an indicator of both the existence of a higher power and of that person's relative importance to it?
yellow_lead 3y ago
It's difficult to find a good balance between engaging with your work and colleagues, and the reality that your employer-employee relationship is a business relationship that could be severed at any time. Reading this post reminds me of that.
hasty_pudding 3y ago
I feel like Auth0 is one of those products that shouldn't exist. Youre paying ALOT for what you can do with a JWT.
- nusl 3y ago
  Auth0 does a lot more than just a JWT. Sure, it's more expensive and probably not something you'll need, and if you do; why? But it's definitely not just a JWT.
  - hasty_pudding 3y ago
    like what?
    - mplewis 3y ago
      https://auth0.com/docs/get-started/auth0-overview https://auth0.com/docs/get-started/auth0-overview
    - paulddraper 3y ago
      SSO (for starters)
- ugly1kenowbi 3y ago
  is that your take on Auth0 specifically, or SaaS authentication in general?
- evantbyrne 3y ago
  I'm not sure the JWT characterization is fair, but in a world of open-source, auth doesn't feel like something you should have to pay a subscription for.
- stevage 3y ago
  I use auth0. For starters I would have no idea where to begin without the SaaS. Next, it handles account management, signup, password resets etc. You'd have to write that yourself.
buro9 3y ago
This bit at the end: > and learned an enormous amount about what it means to build and run a people-first company Seems at odds with this bit at the beginning: > And then it happened, I got the email. Slack didn't work. My laptop restarted and came back with accounts missing. It really, actually happened. And even though the writing seemed to be on the wall, I was still caught a bit off guard. This industry (not specifically this company) fires people in a way that is not as people-first as all of the declarations make out. If people want it to be people first through and through... know that every right that you ever had was earned through a union.
- loloquwowndueo 3y ago
  The “people first” company was Auth0. The company that sent the email and terminated access instantly was Okta. Fairly clear to me.
  - AndrewPGameDev 3y ago
    How can a company be "people first" when they sell out to a larger company who isn't "people first"?
    - joshcanhelp 3y ago
      This is a good question. A lot of people, all over the world, put a lot of work into something and getting acquired turns stock options worth $0 into options worth a lot more than that. It’s just my $0.02 but, knowing the founders and who they are, I’m fairly sure this was more about giving back to the folks that made it happen than it was a purely business decision. Also, Auth0 was investor-backed so there was likely a lot of pressure to sell at the price being offered. I don’t know how all that works exactly but I can imagine that this kind of decision is made by more people than just the founders.
      - whoisthemachine 3y ago
        Ethics are tricky!
chayesfss 3y ago
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nu11ptr 3y ago
Do a lot of companies actually fire people via email? That seems very cold! Most of the companies I've worked for they will call you into a meeting with your boss and HR and then have security walk you out after gathering your things. Not ideal, but at least has a human element. If this person was remote then it could at least be done via phone.
- great_wubwub 3y ago
  Once I got laid off via 1:1 call. Once I got laid off via a mass call with HR, they canned my entire department at once (300+ people). Once I got laid off via bulk bcc'd email because I was on vacation and missed the last-minute mass call with HR. This has never happened to me, but I am absolutely 100% positive some companies just shut your access off, send you an email to an account you can't log into any more, and move on without a second thought.
  - yau8edq12i 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - 12345hn6789 3y ago
      You don't live on earth?
    - spacephysics 3y ago
      The 20th century communist one was sure a joy. What we have may not be perfect, but it’s the best so far
- prmoustache 3y ago
  I am pretty sure the guy was working remotely.
  - paulddraper 3y ago
    That doesn't change anything about the comment, other than "security walk you out."
planetjones 3y ago
That was brilliantly written and summarised. Seems that Auth0 really did walk the walk in terms of developer experience and support. Thanks and good luck!
subarctic 3y ago
The article mentions Okta but the headline is about Auth0 - are they the same company now?
- briHass 3y ago
  Acquired in May 2021, 6.5 billion.
activitypea 3y ago
> I was still caught a bit off guard. What about that high-priority project I was helping to lead? What about the training I was scheduled to deliver? What about the offsite next month? This is the part that always confuses me. I understand why they treat employees as disposable, but it's like they don't care about continuation of business either. I feel like everytime I've quit a job, I cared more about my succession plan than my employer just because I have professional standards I set for myself. It makes no sense to me.
- ethanbond 3y ago
  Social systems like “a company” are surprisingly adaptive. Did your company fall over? Will Auth0 fall over? Very likely no. There’s almost no single person, project, process, or piece of knowledge that is truly existential to a moderate sized organization.
- matwood 3y ago
  Everyone is replaceable, even the CEO. Some plates will drop, the people left pick up the pieces and keep going.
victor106 3y ago
It’s not talked about as much but one of the main reasons for American and European software developers being let go is outsourcing to places like India. Companies save 90% of the cost of hiring someone in America. Very soon we are going to see what happened to manufacturing jobs happen to software jobs in the US unless the government steps in. Unfortunately I don’t see anyone talk about it
- sokoloff 3y ago
  What do you mean it’s not talked about? It was an incredibly common theme during the celebrations of remote work increases. A: "Finally, I can work from anywhere and don't have to live in an expensive place and commute to that office every day." B-Z: "Um, don't you think that being able to work from anywhere increases the possibility of the company to hire from anywhere as well? And that it's not guaranteed to be you or your neighbor who is hired?"
  - CalRobert 3y ago
    To be fair, there's also those of us in Europe splitting the difference. Auth0 is interesting in that it kinda did this from the start - a lot of the engineering was in South America - especially Argentina (it was founded by an Argentinian after all!) and there was great talent in nearly the same time zone. I don't understand why more companies in the US don't look at Latin America for affordable engineering talent.
    - mparnisari 3y ago
      > don't understand why more companies in the US don't look at Latin America for affordable engineering talent. i can only speak for Argentina. It's because the economic situation is bad and having people on payroll there is a nightmare. Constant fluctuations of exchange rates, employees asking to be paid in USD when the only legal currency is ARS, etc.
- surgical_fire 3y ago
  > Very soon we are going to see what happened to manufacturing jobs happen to software jobs in the US unless the government steps in. Unfortunately I don’t see anyone talk about it Outsourcing is nothing new. I don't know why you (and others) act like it is only going to happen now with remote work. My first job in my home country, 20 years ago, was outsourcing to a US company. I was just very cheap labor.
pm90 3y ago
I can’t help but wonder about all the people who can’t express themselves as well as this Author. No shade on them, Im glad to have read about their journey. But the cynical part of me wonders about all the other affected folks, and what their perspective was about their tenure.
- doublerabbit 3y ago
  A shock to reality, I suppose. I yawn at these posts because you should expect in life to be churned and when flavourless thrown out. Pick yourself up and move on. Should I care that someone worked at Auth0, SpaceX, Amazon or Google when they're just another company that pays you money? How is it any different to where I work? I've done them all, banks, animation studio, enterprise, corporate, sme, porn and can tell you every single one is the same. It's the corps vision of fairy dust that alludes the employee wrong is what. "Work for us and live a life of wonders and giggles *" * until we get bored of you
  - paulddraper 3y ago
    > you should expect in life to be churned and when flavourless thrown out Accurate
- joshcanhelp 3y ago
  This was on my mind when I published it. I know, personally, other folks who did not have as fond of a memory as I do and others who are in a tough spot because of these layoffs (visa issues, financial hardships, etc). I certainly don't mean to imply that I represent all views here but it seems to have resonated with a lot of my former colleagues (who were the audience for this post).
flumpcakes 3y ago
It has been interesting to read the comments here. At places I've worked I've always worked my full notice (usually months), however when other people have quit they've been locked out of their systems, and some escorted from the premises. Perhaps I come across as a naïve/nice/non-malicious. My roles have always been in some of the most sensitive positions within organisations. Often without a clear successor so perhaps the worry was about not being able to fix things if I was to become disgruntled. (Or simply not knowing if they could lock me out... as crazy as that sounds!)
brightstep 3y ago
> I was being exposed to engineering concepts that just weren't a thing in agency work: unit testing, CI/CD, git hygiene, release management. As someone who’s worked at an agency that’s grown from twenty engineers to hundreds over the last five years, what? Even when we were small and scrappy we still wrote unit tests…
- joshcanhelp 3y ago
  My experience was 100% different (but also 6+ years ago). Margins just weren't enough to build it into estimates and it was nearly impossible to sell it to clients as a line item.
oars 3y ago
Something I've learnt about layoffs: It's to no one's advantage for employers to give a reason. It just invites pushback/argument. Better to just say "you can't fight management/VPs/people above our pay grade" and move on.
CarenMuessig 3y ago
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Ignacio3z 3y ago
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RhondaAyala 3y ago
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286 points by surprisetalk 3y ago

Join a Union. The bitter truth is your employer has a lot more lawyers than you do. For all the talk about how well-compensated and in-demand tech workers are, the reality is usually different. You need someone in your corner to help you fight for your rights. If you're a tech worker in the UK, you can get three months free membership at https://prospect.org.uk/join/ https://prospect.org.uk/join/

pjmlp 3y ago
Germany, IG Metal and Verdi are active on IT field.
- martinsnow 3y ago
  Salaries in Germany are really low compared to Denmark and Norway.
  - hulitu 3y ago
    And how is the cost of living ?
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    I have done a quite decent life since 2004, can't complain.
maxehmookau 3y ago
Join. A. Union. https://utaw.tech/join/ https://utaw.tech/join/ also good. Think of it as having an employment lawyer on retainer for £8 a month. Well worth the money.
- rakoo 3y ago
  In IT we have it pretty easy and can rebound without as much hassle as other domains, so we think we're kinda safe. We're not. Join a union when things are good, to help you when things are bad.
  - diggan 3y ago
    > In IT we have it pretty easy and can rebound without as much hassle as other domains, so we think we're kind safe. We're not. Seems even people in the US aren't actually that well off, as the author said they'd experience "acute financial stress" if it wasn't for the severance: > [...] and was told that the severance offered would give me at least a few months free from acute financial stress [...]
    - maxehmookau 3y ago
      Wait until America wakes up and reads this thread. The anti-union feeling over there is very peculiar to Europeans.
      - tjpnz 3y ago
        I like the idea of unions but not in tech.. blah blah.. meritocracy.. yadda yadda.. I can't afford union fees on my 600k salary.. something something.
        sokoloff 3y ago
        I think for most it's not a matter of "can't afford", but rather closer to "don't think it's a use of money that will benefit me over the alternative." As a parallel: I can easily afford to buy a new car; I choose to buy used cars because it's a better use of money than the alternative. Many engineers are rational optimizers by nature.
        Draiken 3y ago
        I believe this discounts the very heavy anti-union propaganda that we've all been subject to since... forever. I'm not even from the US (I'm from Brazil) but here, similarly, most have a very bad view of unions, fueled by employers that, of course, don't want to give workers any power. It's always ironic when we see today's workers continuously losing rights that were achieved mostly through unions (with a fair share of blood) actively hate unions without ever truly looking into them. Smart people always assume they are immune to propaganda, and objectively investigating where those feelings come from is not something most take the time to do. Confirmation bias plays a big role here.
- chippiewill 3y ago
  Unfortunately like student unions they don't keep the focus on their actual remit and delving into irrelevant politics: https://palestine.utaw.tech/advocate/ https://palestine.utaw.tech/advocate/
  - steffandroid 3y ago
    Not irrelevant at all, military technology is a large part of the UK's tech sector, and arms exports to countries with poor human rights records are in the billions.
  - rakoo 3y ago
    That all depends what a union is about to you. To me, it is totally on-topic.
    - dablya 3y ago
      So... not really like having a lawyer on retainer?
      - rakoo 3y ago
        The point of a union, to me, is to get society to a point where you are in control of your life. You as an individual but also you as a group, regarding your origins, your gender, your sexual orientation, your skin color, or your place in the employer/employee relationship; in short, whenever you live a situation of oppression, be it small or large. Having a lawyer helps, because it helps you fight these attacks. But larger than that, changing the situation, the society, the relationships so that you do not undergo any oppression based on your situation. The goal, to me again, is to live in a more communal, solidarity-based environment. Telling about the genocide happening in Palestine because of their ethnicity, destroyed by their colonizer neighbor, and supporting them is totally on-topic.
dontlaugh 3y ago
And if you work in the games industry, there's https://www.gameworkers.co.uk/ https://www.gameworkers.co.uk/
Vinnl 3y ago
Anyone have any idea how this would/could work for a company with employees in many different countries? Especially if the number of employees in your own country is low? (Single or low double digits.)
- edent 3y ago
  Each country has its own unique employment laws. So you would need a different Union in each country. In the UK, for example, it doesn't matter how small your employer is - you still have the right to have your Trade Union representative with you in certain meetings.
  - Vinnl 3y ago
    Right, having someone in meetings is nice, but I'm thinking more in terms of collective bargaining, being involved in layoffs (e.g. making sure that every effort has been made to move/retrain people) and all that.
    - edent 3y ago
      Again, this will depend on the laws in your country. Speak to someone local to you.
    - dontlaugh 3y ago
      It's true that collective bargaining units will be per country, since legally the employer will have an entity in each country that is subject to local laws. In practice, unions have international links and often collaborate in the case of an action relevant to the same employer in multiple countries. The details are very much case-specific.
- diggan 3y ago
  > Anyone have any idea how this would/could work for a company with employees in many different countries? Technically, that company should have a subsidiary for each country they're employing people full-time in. So you'd work with the local union + local subsidiary, just like it was a local company.
qaq 3y ago
Well I worked in both EU(Ireland) and US for the same company on the same projects the comp difference is huge. So all the safety nets might buy you more peace of mind but pragmatically you are better off just having an extra rainy day fund from the portion of extra income you get in the US.
- estebank 3y ago
  This is true, but the number of "hidden" fees associated with living in the US make the difference slightly less stark than it seems at first, and a catastrophic health event can set you back to 0. The difference is biggest when working in tech, of course, and for the most part it is usually still worth it, depending on desired lifestyle.
  - gwright 3y ago
    I'm trying to understand what are the "hidden fees". Different fees, extra fees, annoying fees (when compared to some other country) I can wrap my head around those, but what fees are "hidden"?
- edent 3y ago
  If your comp was that much higher, surely a few bucks a month for Union membership would have been an incidental expense?
  - qaq 3y ago
    If I was sure it would not become just another layer of corporate bureaucracy one has to navigate sure. In my possibly biased experience the people climbing any type of power structure are same type personality wise be it union or corporation or goverment agency
evantbyrne 3y ago
How does joining a union prevent someone from being laid off after a merger? Unions have their place, but I'm skeptical that someone–especially a presumably high-paid employee–could collectively bargain their way out of a planned post-merger mass firing.
- edent 3y ago
  It doesn't prevent someone getting laid off. It makes sure that the process is fair and legal. It ensures that at-risk individuals have a chance to apply for available internal roles. A Union can use their legal powers to enforce proper compensation for an individual who is laid off and that remaining staff are protected. Your question is a bit like asking "how does insurance stop my house catching on fire?" - it doesn't; it makes sure you have some protection if the worst happens.
  - evantbyrne 3y ago
    The tradeoff is that people lose their ability to bargain individually, which is why you rarely see unionization of high-paid workers in the US. I think whether it makes sense for an individual to unionize really depends on their ability to negotiate. The more highly paid that a worker is and the more unique their role is, the less they have to gain from unionization vs looking at internal job postings and hiring an attorney as needed.
    - edent 3y ago
      It absolutely does not mean that. Unions help set minimum standards, not maximum ones. I've worked in private companies where the maximum comp is set by management and they do not allow individual negotiations. And I've worked in heavily unionised organisations where I was able to negotiate a better deal for myself. Do you really think your unique talents will save you from a lecherous boss or protect you from being discriminated against? And, if you wanted to sue, how much will an attorney's retainer cost? Hint - probably a lot more than you Union dues!
      - 3y ago

rollulus 3y ago

I don’t get it why the US company layoff culture is so different from what I’m familiar with, the European one. What are they afraid of that people need to be locked out? That one brings a gun to work? Here you get laid off, get a notice, are expected to continue working for a while (but depending on your work ethic you’ll take it easy), consume your remaining PTO, complain to your coworkers about what happened during a farewell dinner. So much more humane.

mrweasel 3y ago
Honestly given Oktas recent security problems I don't blame them from be very pro-active in deactivating accounts, but the ways it's handled though is just inhumane. At least have the balls to call people, give them instructions and let them know that their account is being disabled during the call. For companies like Okta, and a few other high security positions, it's not uncommon for companies in Europe to simply pay people do to nothing for their remaining time.
sushibowl 3y ago
I think the answer is pretty simply due to the difference in laws. In the US no notice is legally required. As you noted, employees that already know their employment is shortly coming to an end generally don't perform to the same level. Therefore it is in the company's interest to give no advance notice whatsoever until employment is officially, actually terminated. In every European country, there's a legal requirement to give notice. And therefore there is an incentive for the company to maintain amicable relations during the notice period to try and prevent trouble.
- gabrielgio 3y ago
  > In the US no notice is legally required. Required or allowed? So in the US you can't give notice?
  - dspillett 3y ago
    I think you've read that wrong. It is probably better phrased as “In the US, notice is not legally required”.

dm03514 3y ago

Auth0 truly did an amazing job on hiring for culture, being transparent and living their values. The pre-acquisition Glassdoor reviews were astounding and back this up. For myself, working at auth0 was truly life altering. It was the first time I was in a long standing multi-national environment. It was the first time I was deeply exposed to other cultures and ways of living. As a side effect of working at Auth0, This exposure completely reshaped my worldview and thoughts on luck and privilege. Watching Argentina inflation fluctuate as people I spent 8 hours a day with struggle to pay their bills and provide for their families as I live stably with no worry I really internalized how much pure raw luck plays in setting us up for life: Who we’re born to and where we’re born.

EdSharkey 3y ago
Word choice can help your thinking. We all receive different struggles and decide how to respond. The way you describe your 'luck', I read as "random good fortune" tinged with some guilt for being a 'have' when there are so many 'have-not's. I prefer 'blessed', and not in the corny #blessed way, to describe my condition. To me, I was given much because so much is expected of me by God, by universe and by my higher self. The extent to which I am blessed is a component of my calling to improve the total human condition. If you lean in to that way of thinking, you obligate yourself and that can be as heavy a burden as you choose to make it. That choice and the freedom to decide how to fulfill that obligation are a part of the blessing. To naval gaze and feel guilt is natural but fruitless stinkin' thinkin'. Motivating oneself with gratitude and humbling oneself by giving glory are ways to power through guilt.
- _heimdall 3y ago
  > I prefer 'blessed', and not in the corny #blessed way, to describe my condition. To me, I was given much because so much is expected of me by God, by universe and by my higher self. How do you avoid this leading to a feeling that you, and anyone else "blessed", is more important that others? Should we really assume that the condition of one's life is an indicator of both the existence of a higher power and of that person's relative importance to it?

yellow_lead 3y ago

It's difficult to find a good balance between engaging with your work and colleagues, and the reality that your employer-employee relationship is a business relationship that could be severed at any time. Reading this post reminds me of that.

hasty_pudding 3y ago

I feel like Auth0 is one of those products that shouldn't exist. Youre paying ALOT for what you can do with a JWT.

nusl 3y ago
Auth0 does a lot more than just a JWT. Sure, it's more expensive and probably not something you'll need, and if you do; why? But it's definitely not just a JWT.
- hasty_pudding 3y ago
  like what?
  - mplewis 3y ago
    https://auth0.com/docs/get-started/auth0-overview https://auth0.com/docs/get-started/auth0-overview
  - paulddraper 3y ago
    SSO (for starters)
ugly1kenowbi 3y ago
is that your take on Auth0 specifically, or SaaS authentication in general?
evantbyrne 3y ago
I'm not sure the JWT characterization is fair, but in a world of open-source, auth doesn't feel like something you should have to pay a subscription for.
stevage 3y ago
I use auth0. For starters I would have no idea where to begin without the SaaS. Next, it handles account management, signup, password resets etc. You'd have to write that yourself.

buro9 3y ago

This bit at the end: > and learned an enormous amount about what it means to build and run a people-first company Seems at odds with this bit at the beginning: > And then it happened, I got the email. Slack didn't work. My laptop restarted and came back with accounts missing. It really, actually happened. And even though the writing seemed to be on the wall, I was still caught a bit off guard. This industry (not specifically this company) fires people in a way that is not as people-first as all of the declarations make out. If people want it to be people first through and through... know that every right that you ever had was earned through a union.

loloquwowndueo 3y ago
The “people first” company was Auth0. The company that sent the email and terminated access instantly was Okta. Fairly clear to me.
- AndrewPGameDev 3y ago
  How can a company be "people first" when they sell out to a larger company who isn't "people first"?
  - joshcanhelp 3y ago
    This is a good question. A lot of people, all over the world, put a lot of work into something and getting acquired turns stock options worth $0 into options worth a lot more than that. It’s just my $0.02 but, knowing the founders and who they are, I’m fairly sure this was more about giving back to the folks that made it happen than it was a purely business decision. Also, Auth0 was investor-backed so there was likely a lot of pressure to sell at the price being offered. I don’t know how all that works exactly but I can imagine that this kind of decision is made by more people than just the founders.
    - whoisthemachine 3y ago
      Ethics are tricky!

chayesfss 3y ago

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nu11ptr 3y ago

Do a lot of companies actually fire people via email? That seems very cold! Most of the companies I've worked for they will call you into a meeting with your boss and HR and then have security walk you out after gathering your things. Not ideal, but at least has a human element. If this person was remote then it could at least be done via phone.

great_wubwub 3y ago
Once I got laid off via 1:1 call. Once I got laid off via a mass call with HR, they canned my entire department at once (300+ people). Once I got laid off via bulk bcc'd email because I was on vacation and missed the last-minute mass call with HR. This has never happened to me, but I am absolutely 100% positive some companies just shut your access off, send you an email to an account you can't log into any more, and move on without a second thought.
- yau8edq12i 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - 12345hn6789 3y ago
    You don't live on earth?
  - spacephysics 3y ago
    The 20th century communist one was sure a joy. What we have may not be perfect, but it’s the best so far
prmoustache 3y ago
I am pretty sure the guy was working remotely.
- paulddraper 3y ago
  That doesn't change anything about the comment, other than "security walk you out."

planetjones 3y ago

That was brilliantly written and summarised. Seems that Auth0 really did walk the walk in terms of developer experience and support. Thanks and good luck!

subarctic 3y ago

The article mentions Okta but the headline is about Auth0 - are they the same company now?

briHass 3y ago
Acquired in May 2021, 6.5 billion.

activitypea 3y ago

> I was still caught a bit off guard. What about that high-priority project I was helping to lead? What about the training I was scheduled to deliver? What about the offsite next month? This is the part that always confuses me. I understand why they treat employees as disposable, but it's like they don't care about continuation of business either. I feel like everytime I've quit a job, I cared more about my succession plan than my employer just because I have professional standards I set for myself. It makes no sense to me.

ethanbond 3y ago
Social systems like “a company” are surprisingly adaptive. Did your company fall over? Will Auth0 fall over? Very likely no. There’s almost no single person, project, process, or piece of knowledge that is truly existential to a moderate sized organization.
matwood 3y ago
Everyone is replaceable, even the CEO. Some plates will drop, the people left pick up the pieces and keep going.

victor106 3y ago

It’s not talked about as much but one of the main reasons for American and European software developers being let go is outsourcing to places like India. Companies save 90% of the cost of hiring someone in America. Very soon we are going to see what happened to manufacturing jobs happen to software jobs in the US unless the government steps in. Unfortunately I don’t see anyone talk about it

sokoloff 3y ago
What do you mean it’s not talked about? It was an incredibly common theme during the celebrations of remote work increases. A: "Finally, I can work from anywhere and don't have to live in an expensive place and commute to that office every day." B-Z: "Um, don't you think that being able to work from anywhere increases the possibility of the company to hire from anywhere as well? And that it's not guaranteed to be you or your neighbor who is hired?"
- CalRobert 3y ago
  To be fair, there's also those of us in Europe splitting the difference. Auth0 is interesting in that it kinda did this from the start - a lot of the engineering was in South America - especially Argentina (it was founded by an Argentinian after all!) and there was great talent in nearly the same time zone. I don't understand why more companies in the US don't look at Latin America for affordable engineering talent.
  - mparnisari 3y ago
    > don't understand why more companies in the US don't look at Latin America for affordable engineering talent. i can only speak for Argentina. It's because the economic situation is bad and having people on payroll there is a nightmare. Constant fluctuations of exchange rates, employees asking to be paid in USD when the only legal currency is ARS, etc.
surgical_fire 3y ago
> Very soon we are going to see what happened to manufacturing jobs happen to software jobs in the US unless the government steps in. Unfortunately I don’t see anyone talk about it Outsourcing is nothing new. I don't know why you (and others) act like it is only going to happen now with remote work. My first job in my home country, 20 years ago, was outsourcing to a US company. I was just very cheap labor.

pm90 3y ago

I can’t help but wonder about all the people who can’t express themselves as well as this Author. No shade on them, Im glad to have read about their journey. But the cynical part of me wonders about all the other affected folks, and what their perspective was about their tenure.

doublerabbit 3y ago
A shock to reality, I suppose. I yawn at these posts because you should expect in life to be churned and when flavourless thrown out. Pick yourself up and move on. Should I care that someone worked at Auth0, SpaceX, Amazon or Google when they're just another company that pays you money? How is it any different to where I work? I've done them all, banks, animation studio, enterprise, corporate, sme, porn and can tell you every single one is the same. It's the corps vision of fairy dust that alludes the employee wrong is what. "Work for us and live a life of wonders and giggles *" * until we get bored of you
- paulddraper 3y ago
  > you should expect in life to be churned and when flavourless thrown out Accurate
joshcanhelp 3y ago
This was on my mind when I published it. I know, personally, other folks who did not have as fond of a memory as I do and others who are in a tough spot because of these layoffs (visa issues, financial hardships, etc). I certainly don't mean to imply that I represent all views here but it seems to have resonated with a lot of my former colleagues (who were the audience for this post).

flumpcakes 3y ago

It has been interesting to read the comments here. At places I've worked I've always worked my full notice (usually months), however when other people have quit they've been locked out of their systems, and some escorted from the premises. Perhaps I come across as a naïve/nice/non-malicious. My roles have always been in some of the most sensitive positions within organisations. Often without a clear successor so perhaps the worry was about not being able to fix things if I was to become disgruntled. (Or simply not knowing if they could lock me out... as crazy as that sounds!)

brightstep 3y ago

> I was being exposed to engineering concepts that just weren't a thing in agency work: unit testing, CI/CD, git hygiene, release management. As someone who’s worked at an agency that’s grown from twenty engineers to hundreds over the last five years, what? Even when we were small and scrappy we still wrote unit tests…

joshcanhelp 3y ago
My experience was 100% different (but also 6+ years ago). Margins just weren't enough to build it into estimates and it was nearly impossible to sell it to clients as a line item.

oars 3y ago

Something I've learnt about layoffs: It's to no one's advantage for employers to give a reason. It just invites pushback/argument. Better to just say "you can't fight management/VPs/people above our pay grade" and move on.

CarenMuessig 3y ago

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Ignacio3z 3y ago

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RhondaAyala 3y ago

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