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Apple Vision Pro review: magic, until it's not

413 points by Handy-Man 3y ago

unsignedchar 3y ago
> The third AR thing I saw was the loading screen of Super Fruit Ninja, which allows you to throw a strawberry at a pig that’s running around on your floor. This seems slightly less historic. That seemed to me the most historic if true!
PamelePaine 3y ago
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Mindwipe 3y ago
This strikes me as the best review I've seen if you read the text (I'm not sure x/10 is useful). I learned a lot about it, including quite a few things Apple has been quite coy about.
- browningstreet 3y ago
  Agreed, per their video take. Didn’t realize how limited the field of view and the color coverage was. But all the popular reviewers are pretty skeptical. I think when another company offers a less ambitious VR headset they have given them a pass because the market target is more limited. Apple’s not getting a pass. It’s impressive but not magical and there are a lot of unoptimal design characteristics for a general purpose face mask computer. The travel case is stupid and costly but necessary. Can you imagine buying the travel backpack that can hold it, and then unpacking everything in economy plus, and then having to store it away most of it for a flight, and then repack at landing? Even in business class it’d be conspicuous and bothersome and busy.
  - polyterative 3y ago
    I would prefer to bring an iPad on the plane.
    - akmarinov 3y ago
      Depends. On a 2 hour flight - yeah. On a 16 hour flight (with power in the seats) - no.
      - coffeebeqn 3y ago
        The Steam deck or Nintendo switch are even better than either. You can get good headphones and play real games for 16 hours. And when you need to move they are easy to stow away
      - browningstreet 3y ago
        On a 16 hour flight you can watch the onscreen entertainment, use your wireless laptop, your wireless tablet and your wireless phone. I’ve travelled a bit and usually alternate among them. But the Vision Pro would need two cables (power brick and battery pack, which is required even when plugged in to the brick) and when you get up to use the bathroom your neighbor will absolutely trip crossing your seat and land their ass on the Vision Pro you left behind.. that you don’t want to wear into the cramped airplane bathroom.
        rcarmo 3y ago
        I just take a Kindle or buy a random analog book in Duty Free.
    - macintux 3y ago
      One advantage: more privacy with the Vision Pro. Even for innocuous content I feel self-conscious about people seated nearby being bored and watching over my shoulder.
      - ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
        Indeed: better to let them think you're viewing pornography, than to remove all doubt.
  - whycome 3y ago
    > general purpose face mask computer I hope this term takes off more than "spatial computing device" GPFMC
    - vczf 3y ago
      "Hold up, let me take my face off real quick."
    - jes5199 3y ago
      facial computing
  - PaulHoule 3y ago
    The really funny thing is that people never notice how bad the color gamut of their displays is. The usual way people draw the color charts make it look like there are all kinds of greens you are missing but they are not the green of money or living plants but rather the green you see when you get hit by a green laser pointer. https://tftcentral.co.uk/articles/pointers_gamut https://tftcentral.co.uk/articles/pointers_gamut The charts obscure it but it is reds/purples/blues you are missing, not the reds and blues that occur in naturally lit scenes but rather colors you might see in fireworks or CGI effects. The "Pointer Gamut" of naturally occurring colors is relatively small compared to the colors you might see hypothetically. There has been a lot of progress in the greens for formats like Display P3 but more saturated red and blue primaries are difficult because the sensitivity of the eye drops off and you need a lot more light to get equivalent perceived brightness.
asmallcat 3y ago
Wonderfully written review. Happy to have read it and disappointed with some of the takeaways. I wish that there were more of a "mac-centric" approach taken for powerusers, rather than barreling forward with visionOS. Once their OS is truly consolidated I may have more use for this device.
- samstave 3y ago
  >...more of a "mac-centric" approach taken for powerusers..." I think this the Apple Business plan in its entirety. But we shorten it to "Lock-in" for brevity. (or platform, moat, walled garden, etc)\ Not that theres anything wrong with that!
  - purpleflame1257 3y ago
    I don't know about that. MacOS remains a general-purpose computing experience in a way that iOS simply hasn't ever.
    - samstave 3y ago
      I have this awesome HP Omen AMD Rizen RTX GPU Laptop. Cant run MacOS. Lockin, HW.
- brookst 3y ago
  Decent review, but it is Nilay Patel, who sees himself as a kingmaker. I’m interested to read reviews from people just focusing on how it is to use the device.
  - htk 3y ago
    Absolutely, he kept trying to coin a phrase, and telling us how it's not an ideal version he imagines.
testfrequency 3y ago
It’s been pretty disingenuous of Apple to have all their marketing photos with the single strap, when the unanimous opinion is that strap doesn’t work at all for comfortability or longevity. Similar to AirPods Max, they oddly chose heavy materials just for the sake of finish - rather than functionality. If they truly cared about the user experience of the actual software/hardware, they would have went with better materials. In general, Vision Pro feels to me like another weird prototype showcase product, released years before they actually had a real viable solution
- bitcurious 3y ago
  > It’s been pretty disingenuous of Apple to have all their marketing photos with the single strap, when the unanimous opinion is that strap doesn’t work at all for comfortability or longevity. "I found the solo loop much more comfortable" - direct quote out of the article you're replying to.
  - testfrequency 3y ago
    The solo loop is more comfortable on the head, but it’s not practical for longer than a few minutes. My point is this band just looks good in marketing photos, but it will not be what the vast majority of people will be using once they’ve put the common dual loop band on
- deadbabe 3y ago
  It looks like something designed to look good in photos. Something like a Quest 3 with the upgraded head strap is probably way more practical and comfortable.
  - PaulHoule 3y ago
    Note the strap that comes with the MQ3 is atrocious and I find it hard to wear for more than 30 minutes. I find Meta's "Elite Strap" is really nice although it's expensive and I know other people have had problems with it. Current XR headsets are all too big to really be "mobile" devices (you're really going to take it on a plane or use it in a hotel?) but once you add something like the "Elite Strap" you know you aren't taking it anywhere. Still the MQ3 is a nice self-contained package that you can walk around the house with and do activities that involve a lot of motion without having a battery pack to worry about.
Topfi 3y ago
This is a very in-depth, informative and factual review. My hats off to the Verge; great job. I have racked up hours upon hours of actual, productive work in my Quest 2 and 3, so to say that I am a big proponent of the ideas that Apple is trying to advance would be an understatement. This makes me all the more disheartened to read that, for all their efforts, this release is mired by the same drawbacks that I have encountered across numerous headsets over the last decade: > [..] there’s a little bit of distortion and vignetting around the edges of the lenses, and you’ll see some green and pink color fringing at the edges as well, especially in bright environments. [..] If you’re looking at something bright or otherwise high contrast [..] you’ll see highlights reflecting in the lenses. Prior to this review, I was actually willing to understand certain seemingly odd decisions, such as the concept of putting an OLED display on the outside, the potential for weight distribution issues, and an external battery, as I was hopeful that, similar to the iPhone, there'd be a cohesive whole in the end that wasn't fully understandable until reviewers got to use it. I also was, somewhat naive, I admit that, under the impression that their handling of vignetting, etc. would be less noticable then what seems to be the case and, again naively following their marketing videos, had higher FOV expectations. To draw a parallel, the initial iPhone made some major tradeoffs and at the time odd choices, to say the least, many of which were laughed at for arguably justifiable reasons at the time, but I could see something in that that went beyond then-available touch-only smartphones and PDAs in terms of usability and cohesiveness. I fail to see the same in this review. Neither as an actual user nor as an enthusiast, do I see anything here that has not been done before. While your then-PDA may have supported 3G and came with many other capabilities the first iPhone lacked, there were certain things in regard to build, design, usability and intuitiveness that were unparalleled in the products at the time. Comparing an iPhone and an iPAQ Pocket PC made the latter seem ancient, even though it could do a lot the iPhone couldn't. Compare a Vision Pro to a Quest 3, I am saddened to say I don't see the same.
- theNJR 3y ago
  You captured my feeling perfectly. In particular >> While your then-PDA may have supported 3G and came with many other capabilities the first iPhone lacked, there were certain things in regard to build, design, usability and intuitiveness that were unparalleled in the products at the time. Comparing an iPhone and an iPAQ Pocket PC made the latter seem ancient, even though it could do a lot the iPhone couldn't. Compare a Vision Pro to a Quest 3, I am saddened to say I don't see the same.>> I too was hoping for the sum of the parts to be something special. I’m picking my AVP up on Saturday. I’ll give it an honest go but expect to return it within a week. I’ve owned most VR headsets and they sit in a drawer, rarely used. For a few hundred dollars I’m ok with that. For a few thousand I am not.
rubicon33 3y ago
Good points for sure. VR gaming has always had an edge because if you value physical immersion (the feeling of being in the game) then it DOES have a significant leg up over traditional gaming. Can the same be said for productivity and general computing yet? I don’t think so. Will I prefer a Vision Pro over 2 4K monitors? Highly unlikely. Will I grab my Vision Pro as I head out the door, rather than my laptop? No. There are some fundamental technology problems that need solving before that becomes a reality. Size and weight need an order of magnitude reduction, and the pass through has to be better which will require advancements in dark scene video processing. Realistically speaking, if AR does “take off” as a productivity and general computing tool I don’t see it happening for another 7-15 years.
- spywaregorilla 3y ago
  > VR gaming has always had an edge because if you value physical immersion (the feeling of being in the game) then it DOES have a significant leg up over traditional gaming. Good controls on a 2D screen are far more immersive than bad controls on a VR headset. VR makes good controls very hard to do.
pivo 3y ago
Oh boy: "Listen to me, do you want to use a computer that is always looking at your hands?" It took a second for that warning to sink in.
- bombcar 3y ago
  Someone at Apple had to design the watch to detect certain hand motions and purposely ignore them. That's a thing that someone had to do, otherwise false positives would be embarrassingly pasted across the Internet for to be laughed at.
  - brookst 3y ago
    No, it’s all ML models. It is very unlikely that an ML model trained on wrist motions for walking and running would falsely report steps for… other activities.
    - planede 3y ago
      They possibly had to include training data tagged with "inactive" though, including that.
    - nox101 3y ago
      One of the reasons I got rid of my apple watch is because it would congratulate me for successfuly completing my exercise for the day just from turning over on the sofa. It would also tell me how good I slept when I forgot to wear it to bed. So, at least for me, that ML doesn't work
      - ThalesX 3y ago
        I didn't give it up, but I did laugh one morning at 2:30AM, laying in bed, dozing off and getting startled by the watch telling me I've been sitting for awhile and it suggests I get up and move a bit.
        bombcar 3y ago
PaulHoule 3y ago
The large carrying case means it is not a "mobile" device. Sure you can take one on an airplane but it is going to be awkward. (What is the stewardess supposed to say? Are you supposed to take it off for takeoff and landing? Are you supposed to stow it? Where?) I was thinking you might use a device like this as a laptop replacement while traveling. Maybe I would because I'm a notorious overpacker but I think most people wouldn't. The carrying case for my Hololens 1 is crazy big and I know a grad student who sometimes shuttles a Meta Quest Pro to work and it fills his whole backpack.
- akmarinov 3y ago
  On the MKBHD video it looks like you can disassemble most things and the only thing you care about is the actual display and glass. So you might get a smaller case from a third party vendor just for that part and then the rest - light seal, spacer thing, band - you can squish those in your bag.
- seydor 3y ago
  Looks like you can skip the $3500 and buy this instead https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71ceiw0-DxL.jpg https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71ceiw0-DxL.jpg
pornel 3y ago
According to the review Mac is limited to one screen at 1440p.
- jitl 3y ago
  It’s 1440p of “screen real estate” logical resolution, like a 27” monitor with 5k pixels like the Apple studio display or LG UltraFine, full 4K video feed - not as high res as the LG UltraFine.
shmatt 3y ago
This sounds pretty great for a first iteration. My first iPhone was a 4S, but I can definitely see the "buy everything first" crowd enjoying this vs. the first iteration from every other company, as Apple usually succeeds doing I would bet the version announced in 4 years will be naturally usable all day
- monkeynotes 3y ago
  > will be naturally usable all day What do you imagine that device to look like, and cost?
  - ThalesX 3y ago
    Not GP but... thinner, lighter and maybe 1k cheaper?
swozey 3y ago
Ha, I was downvoted and told "why do we need controllers, the iphone and macbook dont come with controllers" yesterday when I said this is stupid without controllers. I have a vive, q2 and q3. Look at him trying to type on that keyboard. I have hand gestures on my q3. They're nice for a few certain things, but thankfully I can forget they exist for 99% of what I do, that isn't flinging windows/screens left and right and expanding them in front of me. Or turning wifi on and off, etc.. And.. you can't do multiple screens and it has less resolution than my real life monitor when connecting to a mbp.. hm. I thought that was a super cool feature when I thought you could just add monitors wherever. I hadn't even thought of it before they showed it in the demo.
- nickthegreek 3y ago
  Pains me to think about what this sucker would cost with controllers (which I agree are needed for many VR experiences).
  - jayd16 3y ago
    Who knows what Apple would charge but the BOM for a bluetooth controller with LEDs is not a lot when they already have good-enough hand tracking.
    - jsheard 3y ago
      Yeah, the way the non-Pro Quest controllers are implemented isn't expensive at all. The tracking hardware is just commodity accelerometers/gyroscopes for high resolution (albeit only relative) motion sensing, and a constellation of IR LEDs to give a clear reference point for the headset cameras to follow in absolute space and correct the IMU drift. Knowing Apple they would more likely follow the lead of the Quest Pro controllers though, which have their own set of cameras and perform their own inside-out tracking independently of the headset. It's expensive and power hungry but more robust since they work just as well when the headset can't see the controllers.
  - swozey 3y ago
    I'm so bummed that this is what they came out with. If it was some insane res better than pancake lense with no screen door effect or color wash out at all and had some amazingly well researched controllers that finally rocket shipped VR AND AR they'd have much more of a market and I'd consider one. But maybe in my 5 years these will be in every single hospital, school, etc. Who knows.
monkeynotes 3y ago
I think this is like a modern example of the Apple Newton in the sense it's impressive, has uses, but it too soon to be widely adopted. I think this device will flounder, early adopters will struggle to make full use of it because of all the compromises. Take it on the plane? Why? It will run out of power in 1-2 hrs (if you remembered the full charge before you board). Lugging all that bulk just for a movie on the plane while you look like a black mirror drone. Then there is TV, it's great if you live by yourself, but what couple has $7k to drop so they can watch TV together. For ~2hrs. Office work? No thanks, I can't wear that all day and actually be productive. It's an amazing accomplishment, but who is it for? The ~200k wealthy people who mostly live by themselves isn't going to fulfill an AR revolution for Apple. I wonder what Jobs would have done.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  When all plane seats seem to have power these days, is the battery in a plane really a limitation? Can’t it charge while being used?
  - zerbinxx 3y ago
    Doesn’t it have some weird and Very Apple design flaw where it’s hard to charge and use at the same time?
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      I don’t know, which is why I’m asking. I can see it not charging as fast as it’s being used.
      - monkeynotes 3y ago
        It's basically a laptop on your head, so a meaty 60w charger could be needed to power and charge it.
jesusofnazarath 3y ago
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GeekyBear 3y ago
Some other early reviews that are up: CNET - Apple Vision Pro Review: A Mind-Blowing Look at an Unfinished Future https://www.cnet.com/tech/computing/apple-vision-pro-review-a-mind-blowing-look-at-an-unfinished-future/ https://www.cnet.com/tech/computing/apple-vision-pro-review-... WSJ - Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset Yet Is Just a Glimpse of the Future https://www.wsj.com/tech/apple-vision-pro-review-39f2d82e?mod=followamazon https://www.wsj.com/tech/apple-vision-pro-review-39f2d82e?mo... Tom's Hardware - Apple Vision Pro review: A revolution in progress https://www.tomsguide.com/computing/smart-glasses/apple-vision-pro-review https://www.tomsguide.com/computing/smart-glasses/apple-visi... CNBC - Apple Vision Pro review: This is the future of computing and entertainment https://www.cnbc.com/2024/01/30/apple-vision-pro-review-the-future-of-computing-and-entertainment.html https://www.cnbc.com/2024/01/30/apple-vision-pro-review-the-...
- htk 3y ago
  It's interesting to see a common theme of "It's great, but not there yet."
  - GeekyBear 3y ago
    Can you think of examples where a company starts making a product in a new category and nails it on the first iteration? Experience shows that they will keep on iterating on it year after year. The thing I was most interested in was if they could nail an intuitive UI right from the outset.
    - browningstreet 3y ago
      VR headsets have been around for many years now and why does anyone believe a somewhat better version of those things would hit critical mass? It seems like the form factor is as much the problem as any of the implementations. Many people really wanted an Apple version to be a game changer. Maybe this game can’t really be changed?
      - whamlastxmas 3y ago
oatmeal1 3y ago
> Apple is so incredibly capable, stocked with talent, and loaded with resources that the company simply went out and engineered the hell out of the hardest problems it could think of in order to find a challenge. That’s good! I think they knew before halfway through that it was not possible to build a practical product, but Apple thinks it's important to stay relevant and appear innovative, so they went along and built it anyway. Maybe that was the intention from the start. I'm not sure why they created and marketed so many dystopian features though. The part of the demo where the dad played with his kids while wearing the Vision Pro and then watched the playback alone later was disturbing. Same with people talking using the EyeSight feature instead of taking of the goggles and making real eye contact.
- causal 3y ago
  Yeah it's interesting how the Quest seems like a less-creepy product by just owning the fact that users will be isolated.
- npteljes 3y ago
  >The part of the demo where the dad played with his kids while wearing the Vision Pro and then watched the playback alone later was disturbing. I'm glad I'm not alone who feels the same. To me, that scene is so out of place, so dystopian that it's outright ridiculous that it's presented in a demo like this.
  - naravara 3y ago
    Every parent I've talked to has found that pretty appealing. We're already looking at pictures and videos of our kids on the phone a lot of the time anyway. Which required us to be holding our phones in hand while playing with our kids. It only seems weird because it's unfamiliar. But it's not more dystopian than trying to capture special moments with a camcorder.
    - erklik 3y ago
      > We're already looking at pictures and videos of our kids on the phone a lot of the time anyway. Which required us to be holding our phones in hand while playing with our kids. A phone in the hand is objectively far less intrusive than a full on mask on your eyes that prevents half of your face being seen by your kids.
seydor 3y ago
Glad i got an oculus before they spike the price
alexawarrior3 3y ago
The only wearable headset so far has been Google Glass. It was great for wearing around 24x7 with only pauses to recharge. I even had mine in prescription glasses so I could wear them as my primary. Then, as Google does, they dropped it, and no one took it up again. I'd have to imagine that in 10+ years of display and battery improvements an even better Glass is waiting to hit the market. It seems more a social issue rather than a technological one: we as a society are not ready for universal AR.
- whycome 3y ago
  > It seems more a social issue rather than a technological one: we as a society are not ready for universal AR. At one point talking on the phone in public (video chats, bluetooth earpieces, etc) would have been weird. Now it's annoyingly common. Maybe this release is a longer term play at "culture/social change" rather than a true non-just-prototype device. Soften up the market and make "spatial computing" more acceptable. And then integrate a "non pro" version for general consumers.
spywaregorilla 3y ago
> The goal is for the Vision Pro to be a complete device that can sit right alongside the Mac and the iPad in Apple’s ecosystem of devices and let you get real work done. You can use Excel and Webex and Slack in the Vision Pro, and you can also sit back and watch movies and TV shows on a gigantic virtual 4K HDR display. And you can mirror your Mac’s display and just use the Vision Pro to look at a huge monitor floating in virtual space. As someone who used a living room tv with a wireless keyboard as a monitor for a while, I felt it sucked. Can't see why this would actually be a plus.
- swozey 3y ago
  That's like when I visit a friend who is an accountant and they're working on a laptop in the kitchen 8 hours a day, and I just.. "that's your whole office? You aren't miserable? You can work like that?" I would riot without my 49", mouse and kbs, and aeron.
  - pmontra 3y ago
    Everybody has very different subjective preferences and is subject to somewhat objective tradeoffs. I worked in two different places of my house today, with the same laptop. One location when the sun heated up an external room with no heating, another location in a heated room before and after then. I couldn't do that if I had to move around a large monitor, a mouse and a keyboard: too much troubles. I didn't move my chair, that stays in the main working location for the period of the year.
causal 3y ago
Many HN'ers are probably like me, in that hearing about its imperfections is kind of a relief. If it really DID mean a new era of tech, well then frick I need to learn some new skills to keep up, have to buy one for myself, etc. etc. That being said, it feels like a few small things would make a consumer version of this really take off: - Cut the weight in half (i.e., use plastic). - Drop the gimmicky eye TV (save weight, and probably make the whole thing thinner). - Make it thin/modular enough to collapse into a headphones-sized case. - And then if its light enough, a magnetic strap might be strong enough, making the transition in/out smoother and less likely to mess up hair. - Drop the price $1k. That is, simply paring things down might be enough to take this product out of the awkward-nerd-goggles category and into something more like a cozy-interactive-sleepmask for travelers.
- spywaregorilla 3y ago
  - have worthwhile apps
  - causal 3y ago
    Fair. In general I'm assuming the software piece will develop regardless, but you're right that there isn't really any killer app to draw people in yet.
    - spywaregorilla 3y ago
      well we're in 2024 now and people still try to suggest Beat Saber (2018) is proof that VR gaming is good.
      - jwells89 3y ago
        The problem with VR gaming is that it’s been hamstrung by requiring either a substantially beefy gaming PC or limited onboard midrange smartphone with underwhelming developer buy-in. If the rumors are true that Valve is working on a standalone VR headset based around an AMD APU, I think that might be the shot in the arm that VR gaming needs, with hardware more powerful than can be found in the Quest lineup as well as x86/Windows compatibility and greater general openness.
poulpy123 3y ago
I'm sure apple will manage to sell it by the millions, but both the price and the lock-in in the apple ecosystem are a no for me
- poulpy123 3y ago
  well maybe not millions but "a lot"
  - LeafItAlone 3y ago
    Supposedly they’ve already sold ~200k. Before release. Before reviews of it. That’s still a far cry from “millions” (plural), but I wouldn’t be surprised.
    - B56b 3y ago
      Odds are word of mouth is not going to be kind to this though. I can see pre-order statistics being overly optimistic.
    - asadotzler 3y ago
      Another way of phrasing that would be "they've already sold to the enthusiast crowd, so who is left" and that who will be people the enthusiasts and Apple marketing can convince. Will those 200K each convince several others to go out and get one? Will Apple commercials do it? I won't be surprised if Apple sells a couple million units. That will pale in comparison to headsets like the Quest which cost what a mid-range phone costs and not what a high end PC costs.
schmorptron 3y ago
Honestly, as someone who isn't an apple fan and uses a quest 3, this is still very cool. Obviously a first-gen hardware product, but the software and UX seems on point. eye-tracking and hand tracking combined for UX seems like a very good idea. one thing I'm super surprised about is that it doesn't use their stage manager window management. When they introduced that to the mac os, it seemed like it was designed for this, and introducing it on the mac would get their users ready to already know how to use the vision pro before it even releases.
boringg 3y ago
Having used the meta 3 and having been blown away by the step function in capability. I have to imagine that even if this product itself isn't a homerun future iterations will be very successful. As much as I don't love VR - it makes me nauseous, it leaves marks sometimes on my face I can't help but notice how amazing the immersive quality is. It isn't going to replace everything and it won't replace a computer - its a different product vertical and it will certainly be around in the future. It's been around since the 90s and will last a long time. Early innings still...
teeray 3y ago
I feel like this will be a spectacular flop. It’s the first major new Apple product announcement that I completely forgot about (and I mean completely) in the time between announcement and ordering. Nobody I know is even talking about it, unlike when the Apple Watch came out, or the iPad. The experience needs to be as life-changing as the iPhone if you’re going to normalize people wearing ski goggles around the house… I’m not convinced that it is.
- avidphantasm 3y ago
  Not to mention, there is no chance I would ever wear this at home in front of my family. My guess is that many feel the same; it’s just too anti-social and weird. If it can be used for VR/AR, there might be some industrial applications, but Apple seems to be positioning this more as a replacement for monitors.
  - randomopining 3y ago
    These days I feel like when I'm around close friends and family I want to have mutual experiences. We're already on our phones so much, etc that it takes away from that. I feel like this is for loner people who want experiences
- jyunwai 3y ago
  To provide a contrasting anecdote, I've spoken to a couple of people who are already interested in virtual reality (VR) who have been very much looking forward to the release (we talked about it, and one forwarded me links to news articles). One has worked with VR for research, and is familiar with the HTC Vive and Meta Quest headsets, but has not used VR for personal use. The other person used the Quest for gaming, and has been curious about Apple's approach. Outside of people with past experience using VR, though, I haven't personally heard people talking about Apple's version. The price point is likely a major factor: a larger number of people could imagine owning an Apple Watch or iPad shortly after release (even if relatively pricey), in contrast to the Apple Vision Pro upon release.
  - 3y ago
PKop 3y ago
I stare at screens way too much already. I can't imagine strapping one on my face inches from my eyeballs as substitute for getting real work done on a laptop. My eyes would suffer more than they already do. This really is an amazing tech "solution" looking for a problem to solve.
ninkendo 3y ago
I ordered mine on day one and it'll get here Friday. I work from home and intend to use it at my desk for (1) a bigger display for my mac and (2) native apps for things like Slack/video conferencing/notes/imessage/etc and hopefully I can have a productive environment with it. I figure it'll be cool to work at a national park or on the moon or some such, and to have more real estate to put my apps. I plan to use my physical keyboard and trackpad as much as possible, so I'm not too worried about the inputs sucking. My thought at this point is that I'm going to decide pretty quickly after using it whether this is actually going to work, and there's about a 50% chance I'm going to return it, because I'm starting to doubt whether it will. Some things I'm worried about: - The weight may make it so uncomfortable that the whole experience isn't worth it for 8 hours a day - FOV and vignetting issues are likely going to be worse than I thought and a distraction - App compatibility means it's possible that 90% of the work I'm doing is going to be on the mac virtual display anyway, meaning I paid $3500 for a bigger (virtual) screen that I have to put a heavy/uncomfortable headset on my head to see We'll see what the verdict is. I'm hoping they have a software update at some point that lets you "tear out" macOS app windows into virtual space... that may put it over the edge from not-worth-it to worth-it if it happens.
- PKop 3y ago
  I don't see a virtual screen being as nice or productive as an Apple Pro XDR for actually doing computer work. Too many layers between your eyes and the pixels, and then all the drawbacks like weight and finicky input glitches.
  - ninkendo 3y ago
    The vision pro is far cheaper than an Apple Pro XDR, and input glitches shouldn't be a problem as I'm using a physical mouse and keyboard. Plus I get to add additional apps outside the screen if visionOS natively supports them (Slack, email, and iMessage are good examples. Plus the web browser can be a native app. You can seamlessly move your mouse/keyboard between them and copy/paste too.) The weight is definitely on the "let's see how big of a deal this becomes" list though.
SushiHippie 3y ago
I'm not really interested in apple and its ecosystem. But this review got me really hooked, and I didn't even notice that it was 30 minutes long. Easily the best tech review I've ever seen. And it also felt very well-balanced between the good and the not so good things about the vision pro.
- TillE 3y ago
  The Verge is great, especially Nilay himself. I don't listen to a ton of tech podcasts, but Vergecast and Decoder are some of the best.
  - AISnakeOil 3y ago
    I agree, but they tend lean too heavily on Apple as their tech overlords and compare everything to their products.
    - SushiHippie 3y ago
      I don't watch/read the verge that often, but I don't find that this the case for this review.
- rcarmo 3y ago
  Nilay batted it out of the park on this one, for sure. The best video I’ve seen on the Vision Pro yet (and I’ve been watching all the usual suspects in a row).
jayd16 3y ago
Interesting that gaze-to-focus is panned and not because it doesn't track well. I've worked in VR games for a while and gaze tracking excites designers but I find it a very annoying input mechanism and we usually don't ship it. Maybe it's still the right call for the AVP but being able to interact with things you aren't looking at is important.
_xnmw 3y ago
This review confirmed this is exactly what I need. I don’t care about my hair messing up, I work from home. I don’t care if the display doesn’t look as good as reality, that was never my expectation anyway. The display just needs to look good enough to work with fine text and hi-res images. I don’t care if it’s too heavy to wear for hours at a time, I always work in 25 minute blocks anyway. Breaks are good. I don’t care if personas look creepy, Zoom virtual backgrounds are also creepy. I don’t care if the eye/hand tracking isn’t up to par for “serious” work, I plan to use it with a keyboard and mouse anyway (at least while working, not in entertainment/writing mode). Every single “fault” which this reviewer mentioned doesn’t matter to me, I was never expecting this device to replace reality for me anyway. What I want is, the ability to have large displays laid back on my bed/couch, and the ability to walk around the room and place different open Safari windows and apps around my physical space as I think and study some new topic. That’s all. The new virtual world stuff is just a cute addition for me, it’s not what I am buying it for. I am buying this thing to have an infinite number of screens placed anywhere in my space, and that’s all I wanted.
- walteweiss 3y ago
  My train of thought was similar to this, but I’m worried about my eyes. Although I’m not sure whether it’s worse than me looking at a regular screen all day long.
- whamlastxmas 3y ago
  Same for me but there was a single sentence that more than halved my interest in buying this: you can’t have multiple floating windows of MacOS. It’s all in one single floating window. This is by far the biggest flaw for me, and a really stupid one. Hopefully a software update changes this
  - _xnmw 3y ago
    But you can have one floating macOS window (for your workhorse app) and then infinite other visionOS and iPadOS windows. For me, that’s good enough, most of my other monitors are just Safari tabs or something that can be replaced with iPad apps anyway. Anyway the fact that you can continue to use your phone with the headset on means you could theoretically use another computer with external monitors for desktop apps while having lots of extra virtual space for iPad/Safari apps.
surfingdino 3y ago
I guess Apple had to do Vision Pro to make investors shut up, but I have a feeling it will be the next Pippin or Lisa. Apple does exceedingly well when there already is a growing mass market and they can offer something "better". Home computers (Apple II), PCs (Macintosh), smartphones (iPhone), tablets (iPad). They don't always succeed, e.g. servers, gaming consoles. There isn't a growing mass market for heavy and expensive VR headsets. And as the review states, their AR may be best in class, but it is still lacking. Ultimately, I don't know what question/need does Apple Vision Pro answer? Anyone has an idea?
- happyopossum 3y ago
  > tablets (iPad) There effectively wasn’t a tablet market before the iPad. You also forgot ‘mp3 player’ - which was a market not created by Apple but there wasn’t really a “growing mass market” - it was niche at best.
  - surfingdino 3y ago
    There was a massive portable analog audio player market before MP3 players came along. So Apple could improve on the attempts to offer a digital audio alternative. And they did. This supports what I wrote about the purpose of Apple Vision Pro. There is none. VR has forever been a solution looking for a problem.
- s3p 3y ago
  >There isn't a growing mass market for heavy and expensive VR headsets. According to Statista, there is[0]. The market is expected to grow by about 10% annually for the next half decade. Moreover, if this weren't a growing mass market, I don't think FB would have renamed to Meta and gone all-in on VR headsets. They just dropped the Quest 3 which undercut their 3x as expensive Quest Pro. The tech is rapidly improving and the market is definitely growing so I think it's natural that Apple wants to enter it. [0]https://www.statista.com/outlook/amo/ar-vr/worldwide https://www.statista.com/outlook/amo/ar-vr/worldwide
obinsonjoella 3y ago
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lukev 3y ago
Interesting that almost all his critiques relate to the concept of a head-mounted VR-passthrough device itself, not the Vision Pro specifically.
annexrichmond 3y ago
I haven't used VR/AR in a while, so I don't know if I should have expected this, but those black borders seem pretty large, and I think Apple made it seem the field of vision is much larger than it really is. The Verge hit the nail on the head with hand gestures. The input device is critical for a new computing platform. This is too awkward to be something you do all day. I wouldn't be surprised if this is the most returned Apple product.
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5350-uiop-1130 3y ago
> "it's magic, until it's not" apple can use this on their next keynote. VR falls apart for me when you realise there is no tactileness or depth to anything. no touch, no smell, no feeling, nothing.
- sentientslug 3y ago
  I suppose haptic feedback provides some sense of touch/feeling, but other than that you're correct. Smell is probably the next in line technology-wise but not sure anyone is asking for that one.
- jsilence 3y ago
  Was recently kajaking in KayakVR in the Arctic scenery. Wife snuck by and opened the window. Felt real.
crakhamster01 3y ago
If I'm an executive at Meta, I'm not sure whether I should be happy or sad reading this review. By all accounts, Apple is at least 5 years ahead of Meta in terms of hardware. With all of Apple's compute/display tech, and at 8-9x the price point of Quest, it still seems like the Vision Pro falls short of delivering the breakthrough experience needed to make AR/VR mass market. Not to mention that it still doesn't seem like AVP answers the "killer app" question that Meta has been trying to answer. If the value prop at this point is "a big virtual screen", I guess their work over the next few years will be getting the price point down to a level where consumers buy this over a monitor?
- Atotalnoob 3y ago
  If their price was 8-9x higher, I’m sure meta could pull off something similar. The reason they can’t is their target price is much lower.
  - crakhamster01 3y ago
    They could make the Quest feel more premium for 8-9x the cost, and include a lot of the AVP features (better eye tracking, better passthrough cameras), but I don't think they have the capacity to be making M1/R1 like chipsets or micro OLED screens at scale. The chipset in particular is a big reason why Apple is able to have their "sub-12ms latency" that makes the passthrough feel convincing. Now those definitely exist in a research lab somewhere on the Meta campus, but I doubt they're close to making them in high quantities.
- dansalvato 3y ago
  One thing I find with Apple devices is that they have an ecosystem of extremely passionate developers, and all their other "new paradigm" platforms also initially shipped with no software (Mac, iPhone, iPad). The mainstream usage of these devices is really based on what developers built for them in the first couple years after release, not the use cases Apple tried to sell us on. The shortcomings and skepticism surrounding the AVP is pretty reminiscent of the above examples' own initial releases. Unless AVP is an exception to the rule, I think both the hardware and the software will start to get extremely good over the next few years. But that is unavoidably predicated by a flawed gen 1 being released.
erickhill 3y ago
200 points in 4 hours, yet someone has flagged it so it isn't on the homepage where more can join the conversation? The anti-Apple reflex by some can be so petty, and so annoying.
- apozem 3y ago
  Right? Even if you don't like Apple, a perfectly valid viewpoint, the Vision Pro is a huge deal. It should be on the homepage. Also, if you don't like Apple... read the review! Nilay Patel has a lot of really good critiques of the headset. He concludes by basically saying he's not sold.
dang 3y ago
Related video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdwaWxY11jQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdwaWxY11jQ Related ongoing thread: Apple Vision Pro review - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39190468 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39190468
jug 3y ago
> Basically, I keep asking if I prefer using a computer _in there_ rather than _out here_. And as interesting as the Vision Pro is, there’s a long way to go before it can beat _out here_. I have to agree with this. We're getting more and more physically lonely as we find ourselves represented by personas on social networks and messaging services. I find the thought of viewing even the real world through a lens an extension of the wrong path we're already onto. Letting technology improve our daily lives and to connect doesn't have to be done this way. It's ironic, because mental health is plummeting in the western world and loneliness has been seen as a major contributing factor. That isn't letting technology help us, but letting technology consume us.
moribvndvs 3y ago
These products are fundamentally disturbing and depressing. The push by Apple, Meta, et al to normalize long term, general-purpose use of AR/MR is at best an attempt to generate a new iPod/iPhone craze by manipulating people into thinking they need a bulky $3499 gadget (that’s three thousand four hundred ninety-nine, not thirty four ninety nine, Mr Patel) that actually impinges on their ability to interact and integrate with the world rather than augmenting it. At its (much, much) worst, it’s an attempt at an evolutionary leap in corporate surveillance and extending the walled garden further into our perception of reality. Thinking about people going about their daily routine with this ridiculous parasite strapped to their faces, grasping at the air around them like the blind searching for the bathroom at an airport, fills me with more dread and sadness than any episode of Black Mirror. I cannot comprehend the mind of someone who willingly and enthusiastically pays that sort of money to insert a lossy, delayed, artifact-laced layer between themselves and the world directly in front of them. This is the enshittification of reality, processed via a corporate filter and the people around us replaced with clumsy and cringy simulacra.
- panarky 3y ago
  Fifteen years ago, when Facebook was growing exponentially through social pressure and gamification, a few misfits and weirdos made the conscious decision to opt out of the entire ecosystem of surveillance, exploitation and social alienation. Since then, millions more have quietly joined those misfits and weirdos, and the opt-out trend feels like it's accelerating. There must be strong demand for products that are actually good and healthy for those who use them, products that don't systematically make their customers ill in order to further enrich a few billionaires. Ignore for a moment how you might monetize it to make yourself a billionaire. Instead, imagine what would be most useful, most healthy, most beneficial for the customer. Then build that. The result probably won't make you a billionaire, but you could live pretty well. And the world would be better for it.
maximus-decimus 3y ago
Those Personas^TM are REALLY creepy.
soniman 3y ago
Is the DOD buying these? I can see soldiers using these as enhanced night vision goggles. No need to look at a map with a flashlight or bring a computer.
- chillacy 3y ago
  In case anyone else finds this interesting, the DOD has night vision goggles which have nearly-zero latency (all analog), amplify much better than digital cameras, and emit very little external light (hard to spot by adversaries). This veritasium video at 12:00 shows how these goggles work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAeJHAFjwPM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAeJHAFjwPM That said I wouldn't be surprised if someone in the DOD was buying them for general tech exploration though.
iteratethis 3y ago
This product, and every similar headset to follow will never appeal to a mass market for daily hours-long usage. It's uncomfortable, isolating, constraining, expensive, anti-social and its use cases are at best temporarily impressive but quickly grow old. The entire product category simply sucks. I'm sure the incidental 3D movie experience is great, but most people don't watch movies every single day for hours on end whilst sitting alone on the couch. It's slow to operate, can't easily be shared with others and having gigantic screens surrounding you is a useless novelty without utility. Watch people with big monitor setups. They watch the middle one whilst the other 2 are stale and only get the occasional peek. This super-multitasking idea is a myth and not how people work. Consider how when people own both an iPhone and an iPad, they almost always use the iPhone, even for use cases in which the iPad is superior. It's quicker, more flexible, hassle-free, always ready. Another issue is that the type of content/experience that would truly shine on such a headset, is impossibly hard/expensive to make. So that leaves out 99% of app developers.
- quonn 3y ago
  I can imagine a feature where multiple people using AVP in the same room are linked together so that some content is shared. Such as the TV or a Laptop or anything else. Everything else seems to be more a question of price. Maybe it will be useful in 20 years.
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  You place a lot of emphasis on the social aspect, but we aren't necessarily in the days where we show everyone what's on our phone screens. My phone is pretty much a solo experience unless someone wants to take a picture of me. > Watch people with big monitor setups. They watch the middle one whilst the other 2 are stale and only get the occasional peek. That makes it sound unviable, but you underestimate how great a passive monitor can be. Something to have some music or video run on, or to view output while one monitor has developmental tools on it. It saves a lot of friction from switching virtual desktops or alt-tabbing (which can ruin certain viewing applications). That's honestly a big selling point for me, the ability to pack in a portable double/triple monitor setup for travel. Not $3500 selling point, but it does make me consider trying one of them out before the close of the decade >Another issue is that the type of content/experience that would truly shine on such a headset, is impossibly hard/expensive to make. Yeah I imagine so. Beat Saber is crazy fun and something not easily emulated on a controller, but making that truly killer app in this modern environment is hard. But I guess the App Store encouraged that for mobile, maybe they can capture lightning twice.
megous 3y ago
So pretty much absolutely useless/harmful for any use case shown in the video, except maybe for solitary watching of movies. What a review. :)
LoganDark 3y ago
> But the Vision Pro is so convincing and so unconcerned with whether you might have any limits that you can easily go too far too fast and get yourself a little queasy. I think this is a good thing. I don't want to be protected from myself - let me find and push my own limits, and I'll keep myself in my comfort zone if I need to. Attempts to protect me from myself typically result in frustration, since I don't like being confined to what they think is safe.
wkat4242 3y ago
Pretty good and well balanced review that shows the limitations of the technology. Much more balanced than the initial hands-ons after apple's presentation where people like John Gruber were saying it's the best thing ever. I already doubted they were fair. Only thing that annoys me about this review that he has to mention constantly that it messes up his precious hair :/
aussieguy1234 3y ago
This is just the early version of the technology. Once miniaturized to fit into standard size glasses and integrated with a voice controlled LLM assistant/companion that can perform actions and tasks, there's a good chance these things will replace smartphones for alot of people.
enson110 3y ago
After watching the video, I have two conclusions: 1. Vision Pro will definitely replace all kind of monitors, such as TV, projectors, etc., because it provides a completely immersive watching experience 2. Besides that, due to the limitations of latency and noise issues in the low light situations, it will still be an entertainment toy instead of a productive tool
- M4v3R 3y ago
  Re 1. It would but it has a fatal flaw for this use case - only you see the content, so it only works when solo watching. In the review they note that the experience is “lonely”, even if you and your spouse both had Vision Pro you would still watch content separately as there is no way (at least right now) to sync your experience. This most probably will be addressed in a software update, but the first point still stands - you will need to buy as many headsets as you have people in your house that want to watch content together.
Razengan 3y ago
@dang: Why was the "The Best Headset Yet" removed from the title of the other review post, but this post still has the "Magic, until it's not" in the title?

413 points by Handy-Man 3y ago

> The third AR thing I saw was the loading screen of Super Fruit Ninja, which allows you to throw a strawberry at a pig that’s running around on your floor. This seems slightly less historic. That seemed to me the most historic if true!

PamelePaine 3y ago

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Mindwipe 3y ago

This strikes me as the best review I've seen if you read the text (I'm not sure x/10 is useful). I learned a lot about it, including quite a few things Apple has been quite coy about.

browningstreet 3y ago
Agreed, per their video take. Didn’t realize how limited the field of view and the color coverage was. But all the popular reviewers are pretty skeptical. I think when another company offers a less ambitious VR headset they have given them a pass because the market target is more limited. Apple’s not getting a pass. It’s impressive but not magical and there are a lot of unoptimal design characteristics for a general purpose face mask computer. The travel case is stupid and costly but necessary. Can you imagine buying the travel backpack that can hold it, and then unpacking everything in economy plus, and then having to store it away most of it for a flight, and then repack at landing? Even in business class it’d be conspicuous and bothersome and busy.
- polyterative 3y ago
  I would prefer to bring an iPad on the plane.
  - akmarinov 3y ago
    Depends. On a 2 hour flight - yeah. On a 16 hour flight (with power in the seats) - no.
    - coffeebeqn 3y ago
      The Steam deck or Nintendo switch are even better than either. You can get good headphones and play real games for 16 hours. And when you need to move they are easy to stow away
    - browningstreet 3y ago
      On a 16 hour flight you can watch the onscreen entertainment, use your wireless laptop, your wireless tablet and your wireless phone. I’ve travelled a bit and usually alternate among them. But the Vision Pro would need two cables (power brick and battery pack, which is required even when plugged in to the brick) and when you get up to use the bathroom your neighbor will absolutely trip crossing your seat and land their ass on the Vision Pro you left behind.. that you don’t want to wear into the cramped airplane bathroom.
      - rcarmo 3y ago
        I just take a Kindle or buy a random analog book in Duty Free.
  - macintux 3y ago
    One advantage: more privacy with the Vision Pro. Even for innocuous content I feel self-conscious about people seated nearby being bored and watching over my shoulder.
    - ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
      Indeed: better to let them think you're viewing pornography, than to remove all doubt.
- whycome 3y ago
  > general purpose face mask computer I hope this term takes off more than "spatial computing device" GPFMC
  - vczf 3y ago
    "Hold up, let me take my face off real quick."
  - jes5199 3y ago
    facial computing
- PaulHoule 3y ago
  The really funny thing is that people never notice how bad the color gamut of their displays is. The usual way people draw the color charts make it look like there are all kinds of greens you are missing but they are not the green of money or living plants but rather the green you see when you get hit by a green laser pointer. https://tftcentral.co.uk/articles/pointers_gamut https://tftcentral.co.uk/articles/pointers_gamut The charts obscure it but it is reds/purples/blues you are missing, not the reds and blues that occur in naturally lit scenes but rather colors you might see in fireworks or CGI effects. The "Pointer Gamut" of naturally occurring colors is relatively small compared to the colors you might see hypothetically. There has been a lot of progress in the greens for formats like Display P3 but more saturated red and blue primaries are difficult because the sensitivity of the eye drops off and you need a lot more light to get equivalent perceived brightness.

asmallcat 3y ago

Wonderfully written review. Happy to have read it and disappointed with some of the takeaways. I wish that there were more of a "mac-centric" approach taken for powerusers, rather than barreling forward with visionOS. Once their OS is truly consolidated I may have more use for this device.

samstave 3y ago
>...more of a "mac-centric" approach taken for powerusers..." I think this the Apple Business plan in its entirety. But we shorten it to "Lock-in" for brevity. (or platform, moat, walled garden, etc)\ Not that theres anything wrong with that!
- purpleflame1257 3y ago
  I don't know about that. MacOS remains a general-purpose computing experience in a way that iOS simply hasn't ever.
  - samstave 3y ago
    I have this awesome HP Omen AMD Rizen RTX GPU Laptop. Cant run MacOS. Lockin, HW.
brookst 3y ago
Decent review, but it is Nilay Patel, who sees himself as a kingmaker. I’m interested to read reviews from people just focusing on how it is to use the device.
- htk 3y ago
  Absolutely, he kept trying to coin a phrase, and telling us how it's not an ideal version he imagines.

testfrequency 3y ago

It’s been pretty disingenuous of Apple to have all their marketing photos with the single strap, when the unanimous opinion is that strap doesn’t work at all for comfortability or longevity. Similar to AirPods Max, they oddly chose heavy materials just for the sake of finish - rather than functionality. If they truly cared about the user experience of the actual software/hardware, they would have went with better materials. In general, Vision Pro feels to me like another weird prototype showcase product, released years before they actually had a real viable solution

bitcurious 3y ago
> It’s been pretty disingenuous of Apple to have all their marketing photos with the single strap, when the unanimous opinion is that strap doesn’t work at all for comfortability or longevity. "I found the solo loop much more comfortable" - direct quote out of the article you're replying to.
- testfrequency 3y ago
  The solo loop is more comfortable on the head, but it’s not practical for longer than a few minutes. My point is this band just looks good in marketing photos, but it will not be what the vast majority of people will be using once they’ve put the common dual loop band on
deadbabe 3y ago
It looks like something designed to look good in photos. Something like a Quest 3 with the upgraded head strap is probably way more practical and comfortable.
- PaulHoule 3y ago
  Note the strap that comes with the MQ3 is atrocious and I find it hard to wear for more than 30 minutes. I find Meta's "Elite Strap" is really nice although it's expensive and I know other people have had problems with it. Current XR headsets are all too big to really be "mobile" devices (you're really going to take it on a plane or use it in a hotel?) but once you add something like the "Elite Strap" you know you aren't taking it anywhere. Still the MQ3 is a nice self-contained package that you can walk around the house with and do activities that involve a lot of motion without having a battery pack to worry about.

Topfi 3y ago

This is a very in-depth, informative and factual review. My hats off to the Verge; great job. I have racked up hours upon hours of actual, productive work in my Quest 2 and 3, so to say that I am a big proponent of the ideas that Apple is trying to advance would be an understatement. This makes me all the more disheartened to read that, for all their efforts, this release is mired by the same drawbacks that I have encountered across numerous headsets over the last decade: > [..] there’s a little bit of distortion and vignetting around the edges of the lenses, and you’ll see some green and pink color fringing at the edges as well, especially in bright environments. [..] If you’re looking at something bright or otherwise high contrast [..] you’ll see highlights reflecting in the lenses. Prior to this review, I was actually willing to understand certain seemingly odd decisions, such as the concept of putting an OLED display on the outside, the potential for weight distribution issues, and an external battery, as I was hopeful that, similar to the iPhone, there'd be a cohesive whole in the end that wasn't fully understandable until reviewers got to use it. I also was, somewhat naive, I admit that, under the impression that their handling of vignetting, etc. would be less noticable then what seems to be the case and, again naively following their marketing videos, had higher FOV expectations. To draw a parallel, the initial iPhone made some major tradeoffs and at the time odd choices, to say the least, many of which were laughed at for arguably justifiable reasons at the time, but I could see something in that that went beyond then-available touch-only smartphones and PDAs in terms of usability and cohesiveness. I fail to see the same in this review. Neither as an actual user nor as an enthusiast, do I see anything here that has not been done before. While your then-PDA may have supported 3G and came with many other capabilities the first iPhone lacked, there were certain things in regard to build, design, usability and intuitiveness that were unparalleled in the products at the time. Comparing an iPhone and an iPAQ Pocket PC made the latter seem ancient, even though it could do a lot the iPhone couldn't. Compare a Vision Pro to a Quest 3, I am saddened to say I don't see the same.

theNJR 3y ago
You captured my feeling perfectly. In particular >> While your then-PDA may have supported 3G and came with many other capabilities the first iPhone lacked, there were certain things in regard to build, design, usability and intuitiveness that were unparalleled in the products at the time. Comparing an iPhone and an iPAQ Pocket PC made the latter seem ancient, even though it could do a lot the iPhone couldn't. Compare a Vision Pro to a Quest 3, I am saddened to say I don't see the same.>> I too was hoping for the sum of the parts to be something special. I’m picking my AVP up on Saturday. I’ll give it an honest go but expect to return it within a week. I’ve owned most VR headsets and they sit in a drawer, rarely used. For a few hundred dollars I’m ok with that. For a few thousand I am not.

rubicon33 3y ago

Good points for sure. VR gaming has always had an edge because if you value physical immersion (the feeling of being in the game) then it DOES have a significant leg up over traditional gaming. Can the same be said for productivity and general computing yet? I don’t think so. Will I prefer a Vision Pro over 2 4K monitors? Highly unlikely. Will I grab my Vision Pro as I head out the door, rather than my laptop? No. There are some fundamental technology problems that need solving before that becomes a reality. Size and weight need an order of magnitude reduction, and the pass through has to be better which will require advancements in dark scene video processing. Realistically speaking, if AR does “take off” as a productivity and general computing tool I don’t see it happening for another 7-15 years.

spywaregorilla 3y ago
> VR gaming has always had an edge because if you value physical immersion (the feeling of being in the game) then it DOES have a significant leg up over traditional gaming. Good controls on a 2D screen are far more immersive than bad controls on a VR headset. VR makes good controls very hard to do.

pivo 3y ago

Oh boy: "Listen to me, do you want to use a computer that is always looking at your hands?" It took a second for that warning to sink in.

bombcar 3y ago
Someone at Apple had to design the watch to detect certain hand motions and purposely ignore them. That's a thing that someone had to do, otherwise false positives would be embarrassingly pasted across the Internet for to be laughed at.
- brookst 3y ago
  No, it’s all ML models. It is very unlikely that an ML model trained on wrist motions for walking and running would falsely report steps for… other activities.
  - planede 3y ago
    They possibly had to include training data tagged with "inactive" though, including that.
  - nox101 3y ago
    One of the reasons I got rid of my apple watch is because it would congratulate me for successfuly completing my exercise for the day just from turning over on the sofa. It would also tell me how good I slept when I forgot to wear it to bed. So, at least for me, that ML doesn't work
    - ThalesX 3y ago
      I didn't give it up, but I did laugh one morning at 2:30AM, laying in bed, dozing off and getting startled by the watch telling me I've been sitting for awhile and it suggests I get up and move a bit.
      - bombcar 3y ago

PaulHoule 3y ago

The large carrying case means it is not a "mobile" device. Sure you can take one on an airplane but it is going to be awkward. (What is the stewardess supposed to say? Are you supposed to take it off for takeoff and landing? Are you supposed to stow it? Where?) I was thinking you might use a device like this as a laptop replacement while traveling. Maybe I would because I'm a notorious overpacker but I think most people wouldn't. The carrying case for my Hololens 1 is crazy big and I know a grad student who sometimes shuttles a Meta Quest Pro to work and it fills his whole backpack.

akmarinov 3y ago
On the MKBHD video it looks like you can disassemble most things and the only thing you care about is the actual display and glass. So you might get a smaller case from a third party vendor just for that part and then the rest - light seal, spacer thing, band - you can squish those in your bag.
seydor 3y ago
Looks like you can skip the $3500 and buy this instead https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71ceiw0-DxL.jpg https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71ceiw0-DxL.jpg

pornel 3y ago

According to the review Mac is limited to one screen at 1440p.

jitl 3y ago
It’s 1440p of “screen real estate” logical resolution, like a 27” monitor with 5k pixels like the Apple studio display or LG UltraFine, full 4K video feed - not as high res as the LG UltraFine.

shmatt 3y ago

This sounds pretty great for a first iteration. My first iPhone was a 4S, but I can definitely see the "buy everything first" crowd enjoying this vs. the first iteration from every other company, as Apple usually succeeds doing I would bet the version announced in 4 years will be naturally usable all day

monkeynotes 3y ago
> will be naturally usable all day What do you imagine that device to look like, and cost?
- ThalesX 3y ago
  Not GP but... thinner, lighter and maybe 1k cheaper?

swozey 3y ago

Ha, I was downvoted and told "why do we need controllers, the iphone and macbook dont come with controllers" yesterday when I said this is stupid without controllers. I have a vive, q2 and q3. Look at him trying to type on that keyboard. I have hand gestures on my q3. They're nice for a few certain things, but thankfully I can forget they exist for 99% of what I do, that isn't flinging windows/screens left and right and expanding them in front of me. Or turning wifi on and off, etc.. And.. you can't do multiple screens and it has less resolution than my real life monitor when connecting to a mbp.. hm. I thought that was a super cool feature when I thought you could just add monitors wherever. I hadn't even thought of it before they showed it in the demo.

nickthegreek 3y ago
Pains me to think about what this sucker would cost with controllers (which I agree are needed for many VR experiences).
- jayd16 3y ago
  Who knows what Apple would charge but the BOM for a bluetooth controller with LEDs is not a lot when they already have good-enough hand tracking.
  - jsheard 3y ago
    Yeah, the way the non-Pro Quest controllers are implemented isn't expensive at all. The tracking hardware is just commodity accelerometers/gyroscopes for high resolution (albeit only relative) motion sensing, and a constellation of IR LEDs to give a clear reference point for the headset cameras to follow in absolute space and correct the IMU drift. Knowing Apple they would more likely follow the lead of the Quest Pro controllers though, which have their own set of cameras and perform their own inside-out tracking independently of the headset. It's expensive and power hungry but more robust since they work just as well when the headset can't see the controllers.
- swozey 3y ago
  I'm so bummed that this is what they came out with. If it was some insane res better than pancake lense with no screen door effect or color wash out at all and had some amazingly well researched controllers that finally rocket shipped VR AND AR they'd have much more of a market and I'd consider one. But maybe in my 5 years these will be in every single hospital, school, etc. Who knows.

monkeynotes 3y ago

I think this is like a modern example of the Apple Newton in the sense it's impressive, has uses, but it too soon to be widely adopted. I think this device will flounder, early adopters will struggle to make full use of it because of all the compromises. Take it on the plane? Why? It will run out of power in 1-2 hrs (if you remembered the full charge before you board). Lugging all that bulk just for a movie on the plane while you look like a black mirror drone. Then there is TV, it's great if you live by yourself, but what couple has $7k to drop so they can watch TV together. For ~2hrs. Office work? No thanks, I can't wear that all day and actually be productive. It's an amazing accomplishment, but who is it for? The ~200k wealthy people who mostly live by themselves isn't going to fulfill an AR revolution for Apple. I wonder what Jobs would have done.

seanmcdirmid 3y ago
When all plane seats seem to have power these days, is the battery in a plane really a limitation? Can’t it charge while being used?
- zerbinxx 3y ago
  Doesn’t it have some weird and Very Apple design flaw where it’s hard to charge and use at the same time?
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    I don’t know, which is why I’m asking. I can see it not charging as fast as it’s being used.
    - monkeynotes 3y ago
      It's basically a laptop on your head, so a meaty 60w charger could be needed to power and charge it.

jesusofnazarath 3y ago

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GeekyBear 3y ago

Some other early reviews that are up: CNET - Apple Vision Pro Review: A Mind-Blowing Look at an Unfinished Future https://www.cnet.com/tech/computing/apple-vision-pro-review-a-mind-blowing-look-at-an-unfinished-future/ https://www.cnet.com/tech/computing/apple-vision-pro-review-... WSJ - Apple Vision Pro Review: The Best Headset Yet Is Just a Glimpse of the Future https://www.wsj.com/tech/apple-vision-pro-review-39f2d82e?mod=followamazon https://www.wsj.com/tech/apple-vision-pro-review-39f2d82e?mo... Tom's Hardware - Apple Vision Pro review: A revolution in progress https://www.tomsguide.com/computing/smart-glasses/apple-vision-pro-review https://www.tomsguide.com/computing/smart-glasses/apple-visi... CNBC - Apple Vision Pro review: This is the future of computing and entertainment https://www.cnbc.com/2024/01/30/apple-vision-pro-review-the-future-of-computing-and-entertainment.html https://www.cnbc.com/2024/01/30/apple-vision-pro-review-the-...

htk 3y ago
It's interesting to see a common theme of "It's great, but not there yet."
- GeekyBear 3y ago
  Can you think of examples where a company starts making a product in a new category and nails it on the first iteration? Experience shows that they will keep on iterating on it year after year. The thing I was most interested in was if they could nail an intuitive UI right from the outset.
  - browningstreet 3y ago
    VR headsets have been around for many years now and why does anyone believe a somewhat better version of those things would hit critical mass? It seems like the form factor is as much the problem as any of the implementations. Many people really wanted an Apple version to be a game changer. Maybe this game can’t really be changed?
    - whamlastxmas 3y ago

oatmeal1 3y ago

> Apple is so incredibly capable, stocked with talent, and loaded with resources that the company simply went out and engineered the hell out of the hardest problems it could think of in order to find a challenge. That’s good! I think they knew before halfway through that it was not possible to build a practical product, but Apple thinks it's important to stay relevant and appear innovative, so they went along and built it anyway. Maybe that was the intention from the start. I'm not sure why they created and marketed so many dystopian features though. The part of the demo where the dad played with his kids while wearing the Vision Pro and then watched the playback alone later was disturbing. Same with people talking using the EyeSight feature instead of taking of the goggles and making real eye contact.

causal 3y ago
Yeah it's interesting how the Quest seems like a less-creepy product by just owning the fact that users will be isolated.
npteljes 3y ago
>The part of the demo where the dad played with his kids while wearing the Vision Pro and then watched the playback alone later was disturbing. I'm glad I'm not alone who feels the same. To me, that scene is so out of place, so dystopian that it's outright ridiculous that it's presented in a demo like this.
- naravara 3y ago
  Every parent I've talked to has found that pretty appealing. We're already looking at pictures and videos of our kids on the phone a lot of the time anyway. Which required us to be holding our phones in hand while playing with our kids. It only seems weird because it's unfamiliar. But it's not more dystopian than trying to capture special moments with a camcorder.
  - erklik 3y ago
    > We're already looking at pictures and videos of our kids on the phone a lot of the time anyway. Which required us to be holding our phones in hand while playing with our kids. A phone in the hand is objectively far less intrusive than a full on mask on your eyes that prevents half of your face being seen by your kids.

seydor 3y ago

Glad i got an oculus before they spike the price

alexawarrior3 3y ago

The only wearable headset so far has been Google Glass. It was great for wearing around 24x7 with only pauses to recharge. I even had mine in prescription glasses so I could wear them as my primary. Then, as Google does, they dropped it, and no one took it up again. I'd have to imagine that in 10+ years of display and battery improvements an even better Glass is waiting to hit the market. It seems more a social issue rather than a technological one: we as a society are not ready for universal AR.

whycome 3y ago
> It seems more a social issue rather than a technological one: we as a society are not ready for universal AR. At one point talking on the phone in public (video chats, bluetooth earpieces, etc) would have been weird. Now it's annoyingly common. Maybe this release is a longer term play at "culture/social change" rather than a true non-just-prototype device. Soften up the market and make "spatial computing" more acceptable. And then integrate a "non pro" version for general consumers.

spywaregorilla 3y ago

> The goal is for the Vision Pro to be a complete device that can sit right alongside the Mac and the iPad in Apple’s ecosystem of devices and let you get real work done. You can use Excel and Webex and Slack in the Vision Pro, and you can also sit back and watch movies and TV shows on a gigantic virtual 4K HDR display. And you can mirror your Mac’s display and just use the Vision Pro to look at a huge monitor floating in virtual space. As someone who used a living room tv with a wireless keyboard as a monitor for a while, I felt it sucked. Can't see why this would actually be a plus.

swozey 3y ago
That's like when I visit a friend who is an accountant and they're working on a laptop in the kitchen 8 hours a day, and I just.. "that's your whole office? You aren't miserable? You can work like that?" I would riot without my 49", mouse and kbs, and aeron.
- pmontra 3y ago
  Everybody has very different subjective preferences and is subject to somewhat objective tradeoffs. I worked in two different places of my house today, with the same laptop. One location when the sun heated up an external room with no heating, another location in a heated room before and after then. I couldn't do that if I had to move around a large monitor, a mouse and a keyboard: too much troubles. I didn't move my chair, that stays in the main working location for the period of the year.

causal 3y ago

Many HN'ers are probably like me, in that hearing about its imperfections is kind of a relief. If it really DID mean a new era of tech, well then frick I need to learn some new skills to keep up, have to buy one for myself, etc. etc. That being said, it feels like a few small things would make a consumer version of this really take off: - Cut the weight in half (i.e., use plastic). - Drop the gimmicky eye TV (save weight, and probably make the whole thing thinner). - Make it thin/modular enough to collapse into a headphones-sized case. - And then if its light enough, a magnetic strap might be strong enough, making the transition in/out smoother and less likely to mess up hair. - Drop the price $1k. That is, simply paring things down might be enough to take this product out of the awkward-nerd-goggles category and into something more like a cozy-interactive-sleepmask for travelers.

spywaregorilla 3y ago
- have worthwhile apps
- causal 3y ago
  Fair. In general I'm assuming the software piece will develop regardless, but you're right that there isn't really any killer app to draw people in yet.
  - spywaregorilla 3y ago
    well we're in 2024 now and people still try to suggest Beat Saber (2018) is proof that VR gaming is good.
    - jwells89 3y ago
      The problem with VR gaming is that it’s been hamstrung by requiring either a substantially beefy gaming PC or limited onboard midrange smartphone with underwhelming developer buy-in. If the rumors are true that Valve is working on a standalone VR headset based around an AMD APU, I think that might be the shot in the arm that VR gaming needs, with hardware more powerful than can be found in the Quest lineup as well as x86/Windows compatibility and greater general openness.

poulpy123 3y ago

I'm sure apple will manage to sell it by the millions, but both the price and the lock-in in the apple ecosystem are a no for me

poulpy123 3y ago
well maybe not millions but "a lot"
- LeafItAlone 3y ago
  Supposedly they’ve already sold ~200k. Before release. Before reviews of it. That’s still a far cry from “millions” (plural), but I wouldn’t be surprised.
  - B56b 3y ago
    Odds are word of mouth is not going to be kind to this though. I can see pre-order statistics being overly optimistic.
  - asadotzler 3y ago
    Another way of phrasing that would be "they've already sold to the enthusiast crowd, so who is left" and that who will be people the enthusiasts and Apple marketing can convince. Will those 200K each convince several others to go out and get one? Will Apple commercials do it? I won't be surprised if Apple sells a couple million units. That will pale in comparison to headsets like the Quest which cost what a mid-range phone costs and not what a high end PC costs.

schmorptron 3y ago

Honestly, as someone who isn't an apple fan and uses a quest 3, this is still very cool. Obviously a first-gen hardware product, but the software and UX seems on point. eye-tracking and hand tracking combined for UX seems like a very good idea. one thing I'm super surprised about is that it doesn't use their stage manager window management. When they introduced that to the mac os, it seemed like it was designed for this, and introducing it on the mac would get their users ready to already know how to use the vision pro before it even releases.

boringg 3y ago

Having used the meta 3 and having been blown away by the step function in capability. I have to imagine that even if this product itself isn't a homerun future iterations will be very successful. As much as I don't love VR - it makes me nauseous, it leaves marks sometimes on my face I can't help but notice how amazing the immersive quality is. It isn't going to replace everything and it won't replace a computer - its a different product vertical and it will certainly be around in the future. It's been around since the 90s and will last a long time. Early innings still...

teeray 3y ago

I feel like this will be a spectacular flop. It’s the first major new Apple product announcement that I completely forgot about (and I mean completely) in the time between announcement and ordering. Nobody I know is even talking about it, unlike when the Apple Watch came out, or the iPad. The experience needs to be as life-changing as the iPhone if you’re going to normalize people wearing ski goggles around the house… I’m not convinced that it is.

avidphantasm 3y ago
Not to mention, there is no chance I would ever wear this at home in front of my family. My guess is that many feel the same; it’s just too anti-social and weird. If it can be used for VR/AR, there might be some industrial applications, but Apple seems to be positioning this more as a replacement for monitors.
- randomopining 3y ago
  These days I feel like when I'm around close friends and family I want to have mutual experiences. We're already on our phones so much, etc that it takes away from that. I feel like this is for loner people who want experiences
jyunwai 3y ago
To provide a contrasting anecdote, I've spoken to a couple of people who are already interested in virtual reality (VR) who have been very much looking forward to the release (we talked about it, and one forwarded me links to news articles). One has worked with VR for research, and is familiar with the HTC Vive and Meta Quest headsets, but has not used VR for personal use. The other person used the Quest for gaming, and has been curious about Apple's approach. Outside of people with past experience using VR, though, I haven't personally heard people talking about Apple's version. The price point is likely a major factor: a larger number of people could imagine owning an Apple Watch or iPad shortly after release (even if relatively pricey), in contrast to the Apple Vision Pro upon release.
- 3y ago

PKop 3y ago

I stare at screens way too much already. I can't imagine strapping one on my face inches from my eyeballs as substitute for getting real work done on a laptop. My eyes would suffer more than they already do. This really is an amazing tech "solution" looking for a problem to solve.

ninkendo 3y ago

I ordered mine on day one and it'll get here Friday. I work from home and intend to use it at my desk for (1) a bigger display for my mac and (2) native apps for things like Slack/video conferencing/notes/imessage/etc and hopefully I can have a productive environment with it. I figure it'll be cool to work at a national park or on the moon or some such, and to have more real estate to put my apps. I plan to use my physical keyboard and trackpad as much as possible, so I'm not too worried about the inputs sucking. My thought at this point is that I'm going to decide pretty quickly after using it whether this is actually going to work, and there's about a 50% chance I'm going to return it, because I'm starting to doubt whether it will. Some things I'm worried about: - The weight may make it so uncomfortable that the whole experience isn't worth it for 8 hours a day - FOV and vignetting issues are likely going to be worse than I thought and a distraction - App compatibility means it's possible that 90% of the work I'm doing is going to be on the mac virtual display anyway, meaning I paid $3500 for a bigger (virtual) screen that I have to put a heavy/uncomfortable headset on my head to see We'll see what the verdict is. I'm hoping they have a software update at some point that lets you "tear out" macOS app windows into virtual space... that may put it over the edge from not-worth-it to worth-it if it happens.

PKop 3y ago
I don't see a virtual screen being as nice or productive as an Apple Pro XDR for actually doing computer work. Too many layers between your eyes and the pixels, and then all the drawbacks like weight and finicky input glitches.
- ninkendo 3y ago
  The vision pro is far cheaper than an Apple Pro XDR, and input glitches shouldn't be a problem as I'm using a physical mouse and keyboard. Plus I get to add additional apps outside the screen if visionOS natively supports them (Slack, email, and iMessage are good examples. Plus the web browser can be a native app. You can seamlessly move your mouse/keyboard between them and copy/paste too.) The weight is definitely on the "let's see how big of a deal this becomes" list though.

SushiHippie 3y ago

I'm not really interested in apple and its ecosystem. But this review got me really hooked, and I didn't even notice that it was 30 minutes long. Easily the best tech review I've ever seen. And it also felt very well-balanced between the good and the not so good things about the vision pro.

TillE 3y ago
The Verge is great, especially Nilay himself. I don't listen to a ton of tech podcasts, but Vergecast and Decoder are some of the best.
- AISnakeOil 3y ago
  I agree, but they tend lean too heavily on Apple as their tech overlords and compare everything to their products.
  - SushiHippie 3y ago
    I don't watch/read the verge that often, but I don't find that this the case for this review.
rcarmo 3y ago
Nilay batted it out of the park on this one, for sure. The best video I’ve seen on the Vision Pro yet (and I’ve been watching all the usual suspects in a row).

jayd16 3y ago

Interesting that gaze-to-focus is panned and not because it doesn't track well. I've worked in VR games for a while and gaze tracking excites designers but I find it a very annoying input mechanism and we usually don't ship it. Maybe it's still the right call for the AVP but being able to interact with things you aren't looking at is important.

_xnmw 3y ago

This review confirmed this is exactly what I need. I don’t care about my hair messing up, I work from home. I don’t care if the display doesn’t look as good as reality, that was never my expectation anyway. The display just needs to look good enough to work with fine text and hi-res images. I don’t care if it’s too heavy to wear for hours at a time, I always work in 25 minute blocks anyway. Breaks are good. I don’t care if personas look creepy, Zoom virtual backgrounds are also creepy. I don’t care if the eye/hand tracking isn’t up to par for “serious” work, I plan to use it with a keyboard and mouse anyway (at least while working, not in entertainment/writing mode). Every single “fault” which this reviewer mentioned doesn’t matter to me, I was never expecting this device to replace reality for me anyway. What I want is, the ability to have large displays laid back on my bed/couch, and the ability to walk around the room and place different open Safari windows and apps around my physical space as I think and study some new topic. That’s all. The new virtual world stuff is just a cute addition for me, it’s not what I am buying it for. I am buying this thing to have an infinite number of screens placed anywhere in my space, and that’s all I wanted.

walteweiss 3y ago
My train of thought was similar to this, but I’m worried about my eyes. Although I’m not sure whether it’s worse than me looking at a regular screen all day long.
whamlastxmas 3y ago
Same for me but there was a single sentence that more than halved my interest in buying this: you can’t have multiple floating windows of MacOS. It’s all in one single floating window. This is by far the biggest flaw for me, and a really stupid one. Hopefully a software update changes this
- _xnmw 3y ago
  But you can have one floating macOS window (for your workhorse app) and then infinite other visionOS and iPadOS windows. For me, that’s good enough, most of my other monitors are just Safari tabs or something that can be replaced with iPad apps anyway. Anyway the fact that you can continue to use your phone with the headset on means you could theoretically use another computer with external monitors for desktop apps while having lots of extra virtual space for iPad/Safari apps.

surfingdino 3y ago

I guess Apple had to do Vision Pro to make investors shut up, but I have a feeling it will be the next Pippin or Lisa. Apple does exceedingly well when there already is a growing mass market and they can offer something "better". Home computers (Apple II), PCs (Macintosh), smartphones (iPhone), tablets (iPad). They don't always succeed, e.g. servers, gaming consoles. There isn't a growing mass market for heavy and expensive VR headsets. And as the review states, their AR may be best in class, but it is still lacking. Ultimately, I don't know what question/need does Apple Vision Pro answer? Anyone has an idea?

happyopossum 3y ago
> tablets (iPad) There effectively wasn’t a tablet market before the iPad. You also forgot ‘mp3 player’ - which was a market not created by Apple but there wasn’t really a “growing mass market” - it was niche at best.
- surfingdino 3y ago
  There was a massive portable analog audio player market before MP3 players came along. So Apple could improve on the attempts to offer a digital audio alternative. And they did. This supports what I wrote about the purpose of Apple Vision Pro. There is none. VR has forever been a solution looking for a problem.
s3p 3y ago
>There isn't a growing mass market for heavy and expensive VR headsets. According to Statista, there is[0]. The market is expected to grow by about 10% annually for the next half decade. Moreover, if this weren't a growing mass market, I don't think FB would have renamed to Meta and gone all-in on VR headsets. They just dropped the Quest 3 which undercut their 3x as expensive Quest Pro. The tech is rapidly improving and the market is definitely growing so I think it's natural that Apple wants to enter it. [0]https://www.statista.com/outlook/amo/ar-vr/worldwide https://www.statista.com/outlook/amo/ar-vr/worldwide

obinsonjoella 3y ago

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lukev 3y ago

Interesting that almost all his critiques relate to the concept of a head-mounted VR-passthrough device itself, not the Vision Pro specifically.

annexrichmond 3y ago

I haven't used VR/AR in a while, so I don't know if I should have expected this, but those black borders seem pretty large, and I think Apple made it seem the field of vision is much larger than it really is. The Verge hit the nail on the head with hand gestures. The input device is critical for a new computing platform. This is too awkward to be something you do all day. I wouldn't be surprised if this is the most returned Apple product.

deleted 3y ago

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5350-uiop-1130 3y ago

> "it's magic, until it's not" apple can use this on their next keynote. VR falls apart for me when you realise there is no tactileness or depth to anything. no touch, no smell, no feeling, nothing.

sentientslug 3y ago
I suppose haptic feedback provides some sense of touch/feeling, but other than that you're correct. Smell is probably the next in line technology-wise but not sure anyone is asking for that one.
jsilence 3y ago
Was recently kajaking in KayakVR in the Arctic scenery. Wife snuck by and opened the window. Felt real.

crakhamster01 3y ago

If I'm an executive at Meta, I'm not sure whether I should be happy or sad reading this review. By all accounts, Apple is at least 5 years ahead of Meta in terms of hardware. With all of Apple's compute/display tech, and at 8-9x the price point of Quest, it still seems like the Vision Pro falls short of delivering the breakthrough experience needed to make AR/VR mass market. Not to mention that it still doesn't seem like AVP answers the "killer app" question that Meta has been trying to answer. If the value prop at this point is "a big virtual screen", I guess their work over the next few years will be getting the price point down to a level where consumers buy this over a monitor?

Atotalnoob 3y ago
If their price was 8-9x higher, I’m sure meta could pull off something similar. The reason they can’t is their target price is much lower.
- crakhamster01 3y ago
  They could make the Quest feel more premium for 8-9x the cost, and include a lot of the AVP features (better eye tracking, better passthrough cameras), but I don't think they have the capacity to be making M1/R1 like chipsets or micro OLED screens at scale. The chipset in particular is a big reason why Apple is able to have their "sub-12ms latency" that makes the passthrough feel convincing. Now those definitely exist in a research lab somewhere on the Meta campus, but I doubt they're close to making them in high quantities.
dansalvato 3y ago
One thing I find with Apple devices is that they have an ecosystem of extremely passionate developers, and all their other "new paradigm" platforms also initially shipped with no software (Mac, iPhone, iPad). The mainstream usage of these devices is really based on what developers built for them in the first couple years after release, not the use cases Apple tried to sell us on. The shortcomings and skepticism surrounding the AVP is pretty reminiscent of the above examples' own initial releases. Unless AVP is an exception to the rule, I think both the hardware and the software will start to get extremely good over the next few years. But that is unavoidably predicated by a flawed gen 1 being released.

erickhill 3y ago

200 points in 4 hours, yet someone has flagged it so it isn't on the homepage where more can join the conversation? The anti-Apple reflex by some can be so petty, and so annoying.

apozem 3y ago
Right? Even if you don't like Apple, a perfectly valid viewpoint, the Vision Pro is a huge deal. It should be on the homepage. Also, if you don't like Apple... read the review! Nilay Patel has a lot of really good critiques of the headset. He concludes by basically saying he's not sold.

dang 3y ago

Related video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdwaWxY11jQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdwaWxY11jQ Related ongoing thread: Apple Vision Pro review - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39190468 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39190468

jug 3y ago

> Basically, I keep asking if I prefer using a computer _in there_ rather than _out here_. And as interesting as the Vision Pro is, there’s a long way to go before it can beat _out here_. I have to agree with this. We're getting more and more physically lonely as we find ourselves represented by personas on social networks and messaging services. I find the thought of viewing even the real world through a lens an extension of the wrong path we're already onto. Letting technology improve our daily lives and to connect doesn't have to be done this way. It's ironic, because mental health is plummeting in the western world and loneliness has been seen as a major contributing factor. That isn't letting technology help us, but letting technology consume us.

moribvndvs 3y ago

These products are fundamentally disturbing and depressing. The push by Apple, Meta, et al to normalize long term, general-purpose use of AR/MR is at best an attempt to generate a new iPod/iPhone craze by manipulating people into thinking they need a bulky $3499 gadget (that’s three thousand four hundred ninety-nine, not thirty four ninety nine, Mr Patel) that actually impinges on their ability to interact and integrate with the world rather than augmenting it. At its (much, much) worst, it’s an attempt at an evolutionary leap in corporate surveillance and extending the walled garden further into our perception of reality. Thinking about people going about their daily routine with this ridiculous parasite strapped to their faces, grasping at the air around them like the blind searching for the bathroom at an airport, fills me with more dread and sadness than any episode of Black Mirror. I cannot comprehend the mind of someone who willingly and enthusiastically pays that sort of money to insert a lossy, delayed, artifact-laced layer between themselves and the world directly in front of them. This is the enshittification of reality, processed via a corporate filter and the people around us replaced with clumsy and cringy simulacra.

panarky 3y ago
Fifteen years ago, when Facebook was growing exponentially through social pressure and gamification, a few misfits and weirdos made the conscious decision to opt out of the entire ecosystem of surveillance, exploitation and social alienation. Since then, millions more have quietly joined those misfits and weirdos, and the opt-out trend feels like it's accelerating. There must be strong demand for products that are actually good and healthy for those who use them, products that don't systematically make their customers ill in order to further enrich a few billionaires. Ignore for a moment how you might monetize it to make yourself a billionaire. Instead, imagine what would be most useful, most healthy, most beneficial for the customer. Then build that. The result probably won't make you a billionaire, but you could live pretty well. And the world would be better for it.

maximus-decimus 3y ago

Those Personas^TM are REALLY creepy.

soniman 3y ago

Is the DOD buying these? I can see soldiers using these as enhanced night vision goggles. No need to look at a map with a flashlight or bring a computer.

chillacy 3y ago
In case anyone else finds this interesting, the DOD has night vision goggles which have nearly-zero latency (all analog), amplify much better than digital cameras, and emit very little external light (hard to spot by adversaries). This veritasium video at 12:00 shows how these goggles work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAeJHAFjwPM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAeJHAFjwPM That said I wouldn't be surprised if someone in the DOD was buying them for general tech exploration though.

iteratethis 3y ago

This product, and every similar headset to follow will never appeal to a mass market for daily hours-long usage. It's uncomfortable, isolating, constraining, expensive, anti-social and its use cases are at best temporarily impressive but quickly grow old. The entire product category simply sucks. I'm sure the incidental 3D movie experience is great, but most people don't watch movies every single day for hours on end whilst sitting alone on the couch. It's slow to operate, can't easily be shared with others and having gigantic screens surrounding you is a useless novelty without utility. Watch people with big monitor setups. They watch the middle one whilst the other 2 are stale and only get the occasional peek. This super-multitasking idea is a myth and not how people work. Consider how when people own both an iPhone and an iPad, they almost always use the iPhone, even for use cases in which the iPad is superior. It's quicker, more flexible, hassle-free, always ready. Another issue is that the type of content/experience that would truly shine on such a headset, is impossibly hard/expensive to make. So that leaves out 99% of app developers.

quonn 3y ago
I can imagine a feature where multiple people using AVP in the same room are linked together so that some content is shared. Such as the TV or a Laptop or anything else. Everything else seems to be more a question of price. Maybe it will be useful in 20 years.
johnnyanmac 3y ago
You place a lot of emphasis on the social aspect, but we aren't necessarily in the days where we show everyone what's on our phone screens. My phone is pretty much a solo experience unless someone wants to take a picture of me. > Watch people with big monitor setups. They watch the middle one whilst the other 2 are stale and only get the occasional peek. That makes it sound unviable, but you underestimate how great a passive monitor can be. Something to have some music or video run on, or to view output while one monitor has developmental tools on it. It saves a lot of friction from switching virtual desktops or alt-tabbing (which can ruin certain viewing applications). That's honestly a big selling point for me, the ability to pack in a portable double/triple monitor setup for travel. Not $3500 selling point, but it does make me consider trying one of them out before the close of the decade >Another issue is that the type of content/experience that would truly shine on such a headset, is impossibly hard/expensive to make. Yeah I imagine so. Beat Saber is crazy fun and something not easily emulated on a controller, but making that truly killer app in this modern environment is hard. But I guess the App Store encouraged that for mobile, maybe they can capture lightning twice.

megous 3y ago

So pretty much absolutely useless/harmful for any use case shown in the video, except maybe for solitary watching of movies. What a review. :)

LoganDark 3y ago

> But the Vision Pro is so convincing and so unconcerned with whether you might have any limits that you can easily go too far too fast and get yourself a little queasy. I think this is a good thing. I don't want to be protected from myself - let me find and push my own limits, and I'll keep myself in my comfort zone if I need to. Attempts to protect me from myself typically result in frustration, since I don't like being confined to what they think is safe.

wkat4242 3y ago

Pretty good and well balanced review that shows the limitations of the technology. Much more balanced than the initial hands-ons after apple's presentation where people like John Gruber were saying it's the best thing ever. I already doubted they were fair. Only thing that annoys me about this review that he has to mention constantly that it messes up his precious hair :/

aussieguy1234 3y ago

This is just the early version of the technology. Once miniaturized to fit into standard size glasses and integrated with a voice controlled LLM assistant/companion that can perform actions and tasks, there's a good chance these things will replace smartphones for alot of people.

enson110 3y ago

After watching the video, I have two conclusions: 1. Vision Pro will definitely replace all kind of monitors, such as TV, projectors, etc., because it provides a completely immersive watching experience 2. Besides that, due to the limitations of latency and noise issues in the low light situations, it will still be an entertainment toy instead of a productive tool

M4v3R 3y ago
Re 1. It would but it has a fatal flaw for this use case - only you see the content, so it only works when solo watching. In the review they note that the experience is “lonely”, even if you and your spouse both had Vision Pro you would still watch content separately as there is no way (at least right now) to sync your experience. This most probably will be addressed in a software update, but the first point still stands - you will need to buy as many headsets as you have people in your house that want to watch content together.

Razengan 3y ago

@dang: Why was the "The Best Headset Yet" removed from the title of the other review post, but this post still has the "Magic, until it's not" in the title?