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New U.S. immigration rules spur more visa approvals for STEM workers

224 points by Metacelsus 3y ago

photochemsyn 3y ago
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- mkii 3y ago
  > I suppose the counterargument is that the US educational system is generally so poor that it's not generating enough people with the necessary technical capabilities But what if it's not a policy/ed system issue but a culture/society/values choice? As a teen today, why go to college when I can try my hand at drop-shipping/digital marketing/content creation/ChatGPT startup/whatever guru du jour's shilling today
- throwaway34916 3y ago
  >I suppose the counterargument is that the US educational system is generally so poor that it's not generating enough people with the necessary technical capabilities to meet employer demand... It's not the quality of the education system, it's the motivation of the students. In the mid-2000s, it was very fashionable to believe that all programming jobs should be offshored to India. People imagined that the startups of the future would have executives living in California and programmers living in India. Some VC firms would even pressure their startups to structure themselves in this way. Now imagine it's 2006, you're 18, you're American but you're hearing that the future of programming is going to be in India. Are you going to major in Computer Science? Probably not. Fast forward to 2012. The problems of offshoring to India are much more apparent, plus some of the most successful startups of the mid-2000s (e.g. Facebook) did not rely on offshored talent. So now people want to hire in the US. But now there's a shortage of new CS grads. But of course, companies/executives/VCs blamed the laziness of American students and the alleged poor quality of the American education system, rather than the messages they themselves had been sending out for the previous 10 years. >It's also rather noticeable that the VC tech investor sector wants more cheap obedient labor, and doesn't want this point raised. I've never been able to wrap my head around VCs, executives, and others in the US who have a obvious preference for foreign-born talent, but still complain about the lack of US-born workers.
  - bradlys 3y ago
    I think you're exaggerating the idea of offshoring. The reality is that tech is not a sexy sector at all and that's what pushes Americans away from it more than anything. The people who work in tech are usually people who were never going to fit into mainstream roles anyway. If you went into tech, you weren't ever going to be in sales or marketing. Same for those who went into the arts, they didn't see offshoring of tech jobs and went, "Yeah, I should really pursue the arts." Most of the decisions people make in the US around careers has more to do with image than it does with financial sense.
    - matrix87 3y ago
      > Most of the decisions people make in the US around careers has more to do with image than it does with financial sense. I've thought the same thing about this, it's kind of depressing. It's like science and tech are both stigmatized. These are fields that have to compensate well, because if they didn't, very few people would take interest in them And I don't think the problem is under-funding of stem, it's more cultural I shouldn't be complaining from a money standpoint, but from a national standpoint it's probably bad for places like the DoD which hire mostly domestic citizens
    - deleted 3y ago
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- _fizz_buzz_ 3y ago
  People on here don't seem to realize what an amazing asset it is that the US has a large pool of talented people that want to move there. I am from Europe and HN folks really like to look down on the European tech sector, but I would argue that the most important reason the US has a much stronger tech sector is because of the talent pool from around the world. Moving to Europe is a lot less interesting for people from around the world because of the language barrier. Honestly, for the EU it would be a gift from heaven if the US closed it's border to this talent pool and left it up for grabs.
  - jevoten 3y ago
    What an amazing asset, to not even have a country, just an economic zone where you get to compete with talent from all over the world. To slowly become a despised minority in what used to be your country, but the economy does so well! I am also from Europe, and I pray the US doesn't give us this "amazing asset".
    - rcbdev 3y ago
      Immigration will be politically encouraged either way for demographic reasons alone. Pensioners are the strongest voting block in most of Europe and it will stay that way for the foreseeable future. Someone needs to be productive for the pension system to keep on working. As a European myself, I'd much rather have the comparably educated, motivated and talented immigration Switzerland and the USA get versus what the rest of the EU is currently getting.
      - bufio 3y ago
        I'm not comfortable with this idea that we have to exploit immigrants to fund boomers' retirements.
    - filoleg 3y ago
      > What an amazing asset, to not even have a country, just an economic zone where you get to compete with talent from all over the world. Is this what europeans think the US is like? No country, just an economic zone? Mind if I ask how "just an economic zone" manages to produce cultural exports that most of the world has been predominantly consuming for decades? Is it the same "economic zone" that has some of the strongest national identities out there in the modern age? (not that it is an absolute positive or anything, but it would just be weird to claim that an "economic zone" has some national identity) And competing with talent from all over the world, really? If you frame it that way, sure. I personally see it as getting to collaborate and work together with some of the best talent from all over the world, to accomplish things that often wouldn't be possible otherwise. This is the kind of a thing that makes the US a powerhouse, and not just from the economical perspective. > To slowly become a despised minority in what used to be your country. Ah, the european attitude towards immigration has finally shown its face. I can assure you that no american doing anything worthy with their life thinks so. Please tell me who that "despised minority" you are referring to is, and who "my" country used to belong to? Who specifically makes someone feel like a "despised minority" and how? Are you talking about Indian and Chinese software engineers immigrating to Bay Area, who then make rural american midwest farmers feel like a "despised minority"? I am legit confused how any of that tracks, so I assume you are talking about something else, so I am curious to hear you elaborate on that. Note: I wasn't even born american (but I am white, in case you were trying to pull that "of course you disagree, because you are the minority being referenced" card), and I can assure you that I feel like less of a "despised minority" here than I do in my country of birth (where I grew up and had spent half of my life). And my country of birth was much much more homogenous in every single way compared to most large european countries, let alone the US. > I am also from Europe, and I pray the US doesn't give us this "amazing asset". If I were you, I wouldn't worry. Doesn't seem like Europe is going to manage to get there anytime soon, not even if they actually tried. Which they haven't yet, but judging by how well they manage to resolve any significant matters like that in Europe in general, I wouldn't place much hope on it going anywhere.
- aorist 3y ago
  > the US educational system is generally so poor that it's not generating enough people with the necessary technical capabilities to meet employer demand The US educational system might be generating enough people with those skills, but a very large proportion of them are foreigners who would need visas to work (40-50% of STEM postgrads: https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IF/IF11347 https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IF/IF11347)
- retinaros 3y ago
  if that were true indians woudlnt be the highest-earning ethnic group in USA
- deleted 3y ago
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fnord77 3y ago
would love to see the breakdown by STEM field. I'm guessing most are going toward computer programming/support roles, but I could be wrong
- jqpabc123 3y ago
  Having worked in STEM fields other than IT, I can assure you it is not the only one affected here.
  - apwell23 3y ago
    > it is not the only one affected here. Thats why parent comment said most.
- bsdpufferfish 3y ago
  Yep, s_em employment is dominated by US defense.
FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>“You don’t have any accomplishments,” the lawyer told him. “You don’t have a patent, or even a product.” That scolding spurred Sanjay to make a list of what he needed to do to achieve his goal of staying permanently. He improved the technology his AI-based firm was developing, expanded its customer base, and filed for a U.S. patent, which was awarded earlier this year. In May those efforts paid off, allowing him to move from an O-1A to a EB-1 visa, which grants him permanent residency. Question from non-USA-an here. I wonder if this will lead people to spam the patent office with low quality inventions hoping something will stick and help them secure a EB-1 visa.
- satya71 3y ago
  Not any more than other patent applicants. Currently all the layers in patent application process is incentivized to ignore quality. 1. Large companies pay a bonus for every patent applied and bigger one for approval. 2. Patent lawyers are paid for filed patents. 3. Patent office makes money on each patent. They view the review process as a cost center and optimize it for fast approval.
  - isbvhodnvemrwvn 3y ago
    > Currently all the layers in patent application process is incentivized to ignore quality. Hasn't it always been the case? There's a ton of old patents for shit which can't work as described.
  - paulryanrogers 3y ago
    Outsourcing real approval to the courts, what could possibly go wrong?
    - lotsofpulp 3y ago
      Would be fine if courts were sufficiently funded such that adjudication happened within weeks.
  - bumby 3y ago
    >Currently all the layers in patent application process is incentivized to ignore quality. Not just "incentivized to ignore quality", they aren't duty-bound to consider quality at all. The PTO evaluates applications for novelty, not quality. The three main relevant parts of the US Code are: 35 USC Sec. 101: is it patentable? (i.e., it must be a process, machine, process, or manufactured good. It can't be something like an idea or song) 35 USC Sec. 102: is it novel? (i.e., no one single prior existing item teaches all the limitations of the patent claims) 35 USC Sec. 103: is it non-obvious? (i.e., you can't combine a couple of different patents to arrive at your patent) There's a few other important sections (like 112 that ensures you're giving enough detail), but none of them look at "quality". In other words, you can patent a worthless invention as long as it passes those wickets. Edit: Somewhat surprisingly to some, they don't necessarily evaluate infringement either. So you could, in theory, have a novel patent that you can't use to make something because it infringes on an existing patent.
lgleason 3y ago
Expect further downward pressure on US tech salaries.
- _factor 3y ago
  At the benefit of a stronger economy.
  - mlindner 3y ago
    Completely agree. The pay is high because the demand is higher than the supply.
- addicted 3y ago
  Ah yes, the last 30 odd years of increasing immigration has exerted tremendous downward pressure on US tech salaries. And countries in Europe that have not seen as much Tech immigration have seen huge boosts in Tech salaries. Comparable Europeans earn almost 1/3 - 1/2 what their American counterparts do today!
  - dougmwne 3y ago
    But really, it’s much easier to enter the EU. You have dozens of countries with their own rules so there are many more options. Plus immigration rules tend to be much easier than the US with its famously strict legal immigration with low caps. Indeed, this balance between supply and demand is exactly what keeps US tech salaries high. Our dynamic economy creates a lot of tech roles while our restrictive immigration limits high skill immigrants from filling those roles, raising salaries. Tech companies have been lobbying unsuccessfully for years to raise or eliminate the h-1b cap, which would absolutely cut salaries. That’s why they are lobbying for it, to reduce their labor costs. Personally I think this is all going to be moot anyway. With software development becoming a mostly remote role after the pandemic, I’ve seen a lot less barrier over the past few years to hiring offshore teams. My own small division of 100 people has offshore teams in 3 countries.
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jmyeet 3y ago
There's no changes that affect the real bottleneck: the annual quota on green cards and the per-country limits of 7% or children aging out. Those all require Congressional action and that's just not going to happen in the current political environment [1]. Here's my take: you get a work visa for 3-5 years that's tied to your employer and allows you to freely leave and re-enter the US. Believe it or not, we still have visa holders that can't leave the US without having to re-apply for their visa. On renewal that becomes a 3-5 year visa that isn't tied to your employer. You can freely change jobs. At the end of that period, it just becomes a green card as long as you satisfy presence tests. Naturalization has continuous and physical presence tests. Just use those. Failing that it is simply renewed for another 3-5 years. If you satisfy the extraordinary category or get a NIW you simply skip the first step of having an employer-tied visa. This would free up USCIS to deal with actual visa fraud rather than all the pointless hoops they currently (are forced to) enforce. [1]: https://spectrumnews1.com/oh/columbus/news/2023/12/21/congress-ineffective-2023 https://spectrumnews1.com/oh/columbus/news/2023/12/21/congre...
- pc86 3y ago
  Won't this just dramatically shrink the number of initial work visas given out? Because you'll have to assume each one is now just a green card with extra steps.
  - jmyeet 3y ago
    Why do we need a quota for qualified people getting work visas (or green cards) at all? We don't.
    - sokoloff 3y ago
      If the qualifications are for a field that has 95 workers for every 100 jobs, come on in. If it’s for a field that already has 105 workers for every 100 jobs, I can see a lot of reasons ($$$) why current residents would want to see their potential competitors stifled or limited in number.
    - rayiner 3y ago
dimmke 3y ago
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- addicted 3y ago
  I suspect 99% of the people impacted by this are already working in the U.S.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  A historic year of tech layoffs? Does that mean most tech layoffs ever? Or just that layoffs occurred when they didn’t in the last few years?
  - ssgodderidge 3y ago
    Every layoff is “historic” to those affected
  - apwell23 3y ago
    > does that mean most tech layoffs ever why would it mean that? historic= famous or important in history, or potentially so. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/historic https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/historic
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      Historic means the year must be notable for something. Otherwise, it is just being used as embellishment here. I doubt 2023 layoffs will actually make it into the history books.
      - apwell23 3y ago
        True but that still has nothing do with "most layoffs ever" which you used to discredit that comment.
  - pfisherman 3y ago
    Well I assume that GP wasn’t around for the dot com bust or 2008. “We are all ready to win, just as we are all born knowing only life” - Han (Enter the Dragon)
ChumpGPT 3y ago
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jqpabc123 3y ago
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booleandilemma 3y ago
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jmyeet 3y ago
I'm a little surprised to see a number of anti-immigraiton comments on this thread, some of which you could describe as reactionary. The US is and always has been a country of immigrants. Your idea of who is and isn't an immigrant is simply a question of what time window you choose. In 1800, the US had a population of ~2 million. by 1900 it was ~50 million. You want to guess how itt got that way? Let's dispense of the common issues: 1. Tech layoffs. This is unrelated to immigration. This is de facto employer colusion to suppress wages. Notice how all the tech companies started doing layoffs at about the same time? The counterargument is "economic conditions". You may have a point with VC funding drying up due to rising interest rates but many of the biggest companies are massively profitable. Profits tend to fall so they want to suppress costs to maintain profits. That's it. I will say that layoffs should basically prohibit you from applying for more work visas for a period. For example: if you've laid off anyone in the last year, sorry you can't sponsor a work visa. You can escape this by, say, paying severance of at least a year's total compensation. The point is to remove the economic incentive of suppressing wages from the layoff-then-rehire cycle. 2. Lowering wages. Restricted immigration actually lowers wages. Why? Because it allows employs to pay undocumented workers less. Poultry farms are an excellent example of this. They pay undocuemnted workers less. If they ever start making noise about wages or conditions, you clear them out by calling in an ICE raid, pay a nominal fine, rinse and repeat. How do we know this? Because when states actually go after employers rather than the workers, it's an economic disaster [1]. Also, we used to have a temporary worker program for seasonal and agricultural workers called the Bracero program. This filled an economic need. Eliminating it created more undocumented residents because crossing the border became too difficult and expensive. 3. A rising tide lifts all boats. There's mountains of evidence for this (eg [1]). Unions increase non-union wages. If we didn't have wage suppression by forced undocumented workers it would raise wages for everyone. Immigrants aren't "stealing your jobs" or "lowering your wages". There's a long history of trying to blame immigrants instead of (correctly) blaming the concerted effort by capital owners to lower your wages. [1]: https://www.americanprogress.org/article/alabamas-immigration-disaster/ https://www.americanprogress.org/article/alabamas-immigratio... [2]: https://www.workrisenetwork.org/working-knowledge/unions-raise-pay-nonunion-workers https://www.workrisenetwork.org/working-knowledge/unions-rai...
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ren_engineer 3y ago
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danking00 3y ago
Watching friends work through the decades long journey of citizenship, going to prestigious undergrad institutions, getting PhDs, publishing in journals, teaching part-time while working full time in industry, all just to get the right to stay in the country they’ve lived since they were 18 is fucking depressing. I doubt I’d qualify for EB-1 [1]. I’d have qualified for EB-2 at 28 when I attained five years of work experience [2][3]. If I didn’t have a BS I’d need ten years experience. If I had spent the usual five years flailing about in a PhD instead of dropping out early, I’d have delayed “work experience” another three years. Now this hypothetical version of myself waits as short as two years (China-born) and as long as eleven years (India-born) to get an application considered. Meanwhile, they’re trying to maintain work authorization, either via the time-limited OPT or hopefully winning an H1-B which has its own highly competitive lottery. And when they finally get PR/citizenship, their (now quite old) parents have no hope of receiving PR/citizenship so they’ll probably be flying across oceans to care for them as they age. All of this for the mistake of being born in the wrong part of the word. Meanwhile, I’m some fuckup who happened to be born in the US who has never known struggle. It just all seems cosmically unfair. [1] https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/permanent-workers/employment-based-immigration-first-preference-eb-1 https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/permanent... [2] https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/permanent-workers/employment-based-immigration-second-preference-eb-2 https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/permanent... [3] aswell23 is correct that I would qualify for EB-2 based on my BS degree. I had misread the EB-2 requirements. The text originally read: “I’m still two years shy of the 10 year minimum years of experience for EB-2 [2]. So that leaves EB-3.” EDIT: clarify second paragraph with third-person pronouns. EDIT2: clarify based on apwell23’s comment EDIT3: further clarification based on apwell23’s second comment.
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- apwell23 3y ago
  > At 33 years old I’m still two years shy of the 10 year minimum for EB-2 [2] not sure what your link has to do with age requirement that you mention. eb2 has no age minimum. You also wrote bunch of other falsehoods like visa renewals requiring lottery, renewals don't count against yearly visa quota. Most of the stuff in your comment is not correct.
throwdef 3y ago
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aiisahik 3y ago
I'm an Australian citizen who has lived in the US for over 20 years, gotten degrees from Yale and Berkeley. I've worked as a software engineer for over 10 years and am currently a cofounder. I'm so put off by the immigration process in the US that I have decided to leave the US permanently. Don't worry - i still work for the same US based company remotely from a more cost effective nation. I just don't pay your taxes anymore.
- psychlops 3y ago
  You should try the Australian immigration process.
  - aiisahik 3y ago
    Australian immigration process is a breeze! I'm am Immigrant to Australia too.
  - BeetleB 3y ago
    Unless things changed recently, Australian immigration is much easier for a person of his profile.
    - psychlops 3y ago
      Fair, that fit his profile.
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- rayiner 3y ago
  That seems like a win-win. Hopefully remote work will reduce the need for immigration.
  - aiisahik 3y ago
    I hire a ton of engineers in LATAM who have no interest in migrating to US. They get paid well in USD, they live in kings and queens in their respective low cost countries. In fact, looking at their live inspired me to make the decision to leave.
syngrog66 3y ago
with the massive layoffs of American software folks the last year its a bad time to boost foreign STEM visas. yikes
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TheCaptain4815 3y ago
This is a good start, but without solving the elephant in the room (illegal immigration), there will never be the political capital to really make these programs efficient and effective.
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piuantiderp 3y ago
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matrix87 3y ago
This isn't bad timing really, we just had a year of layoffs and have a federal election just around the corner. The people who are interested should read up on Trump's previous immigration policy, which looks to be considerably more favorable to domestic citizens https://www.migrationpolicy.org/news/trump-h1b-changes-miss-opportunity-real-reform https://www.migrationpolicy.org/news/trump-h1b-changes-miss-...
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black_13 3y ago
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grungydan 3y ago
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- JB_Dev 3y ago
  It’s pretty simple - software engineering compensation can be 2x-4x or more in the US compared to other western democracies. Money circumvents a lot of the problems you describe.
jdjdjdkdksmdnd 3y ago
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- mgh2 3y ago
  What were your circumstances for denial?
- Georgelemental 3y ago
  To enter a country as a non-citizen is a privilege, that a country has the right to deny for any reason or none. Just as you can deny others entry into your own home or private property, without needing to give any justification. If the border agents are not applying their own stated rules consistently or transparently then that is wrong, but you are not entitled to anything just because you put in "time and effort".
  - leoqa 3y ago
    In the U.S. being a CBP is not well regarded and is generally a stepping stone for other federal law enforcement agencies due to the pension system. The guys checking passports are treated like children, I’m sure misuses of privilege can be escalated to a supervisor or complaints can be filed with the OIG or HSI even.
  - jdjdjdkdksmdnd 3y ago
    [dead]

224 points by Metacelsus 3y ago

photochemsyn 3y ago

[flagged]

mkii 3y ago
> I suppose the counterargument is that the US educational system is generally so poor that it's not generating enough people with the necessary technical capabilities But what if it's not a policy/ed system issue but a culture/society/values choice? As a teen today, why go to college when I can try my hand at drop-shipping/digital marketing/content creation/ChatGPT startup/whatever guru du jour's shilling today
throwaway34916 3y ago
>I suppose the counterargument is that the US educational system is generally so poor that it's not generating enough people with the necessary technical capabilities to meet employer demand... It's not the quality of the education system, it's the motivation of the students. In the mid-2000s, it was very fashionable to believe that all programming jobs should be offshored to India. People imagined that the startups of the future would have executives living in California and programmers living in India. Some VC firms would even pressure their startups to structure themselves in this way. Now imagine it's 2006, you're 18, you're American but you're hearing that the future of programming is going to be in India. Are you going to major in Computer Science? Probably not. Fast forward to 2012. The problems of offshoring to India are much more apparent, plus some of the most successful startups of the mid-2000s (e.g. Facebook) did not rely on offshored talent. So now people want to hire in the US. But now there's a shortage of new CS grads. But of course, companies/executives/VCs blamed the laziness of American students and the alleged poor quality of the American education system, rather than the messages they themselves had been sending out for the previous 10 years. >It's also rather noticeable that the VC tech investor sector wants more cheap obedient labor, and doesn't want this point raised. I've never been able to wrap my head around VCs, executives, and others in the US who have a obvious preference for foreign-born talent, but still complain about the lack of US-born workers.
- bradlys 3y ago
  I think you're exaggerating the idea of offshoring. The reality is that tech is not a sexy sector at all and that's what pushes Americans away from it more than anything. The people who work in tech are usually people who were never going to fit into mainstream roles anyway. If you went into tech, you weren't ever going to be in sales or marketing. Same for those who went into the arts, they didn't see offshoring of tech jobs and went, "Yeah, I should really pursue the arts." Most of the decisions people make in the US around careers has more to do with image than it does with financial sense.
  - matrix87 3y ago
    > Most of the decisions people make in the US around careers has more to do with image than it does with financial sense. I've thought the same thing about this, it's kind of depressing. It's like science and tech are both stigmatized. These are fields that have to compensate well, because if they didn't, very few people would take interest in them And I don't think the problem is under-funding of stem, it's more cultural I shouldn't be complaining from a money standpoint, but from a national standpoint it's probably bad for places like the DoD which hire mostly domestic citizens
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_fizz_buzz_ 3y ago
People on here don't seem to realize what an amazing asset it is that the US has a large pool of talented people that want to move there. I am from Europe and HN folks really like to look down on the European tech sector, but I would argue that the most important reason the US has a much stronger tech sector is because of the talent pool from around the world. Moving to Europe is a lot less interesting for people from around the world because of the language barrier. Honestly, for the EU it would be a gift from heaven if the US closed it's border to this talent pool and left it up for grabs.
- jevoten 3y ago
  What an amazing asset, to not even have a country, just an economic zone where you get to compete with talent from all over the world. To slowly become a despised minority in what used to be your country, but the economy does so well! I am also from Europe, and I pray the US doesn't give us this "amazing asset".
  - rcbdev 3y ago
    Immigration will be politically encouraged either way for demographic reasons alone. Pensioners are the strongest voting block in most of Europe and it will stay that way for the foreseeable future. Someone needs to be productive for the pension system to keep on working. As a European myself, I'd much rather have the comparably educated, motivated and talented immigration Switzerland and the USA get versus what the rest of the EU is currently getting.
    - bufio 3y ago
      I'm not comfortable with this idea that we have to exploit immigrants to fund boomers' retirements.
  - filoleg 3y ago
    > What an amazing asset, to not even have a country, just an economic zone where you get to compete with talent from all over the world. Is this what europeans think the US is like? No country, just an economic zone? Mind if I ask how "just an economic zone" manages to produce cultural exports that most of the world has been predominantly consuming for decades? Is it the same "economic zone" that has some of the strongest national identities out there in the modern age? (not that it is an absolute positive or anything, but it would just be weird to claim that an "economic zone" has some national identity) And competing with talent from all over the world, really? If you frame it that way, sure. I personally see it as getting to collaborate and work together with some of the best talent from all over the world, to accomplish things that often wouldn't be possible otherwise. This is the kind of a thing that makes the US a powerhouse, and not just from the economical perspective. > To slowly become a despised minority in what used to be your country. Ah, the european attitude towards immigration has finally shown its face. I can assure you that no american doing anything worthy with their life thinks so. Please tell me who that "despised minority" you are referring to is, and who "my" country used to belong to? Who specifically makes someone feel like a "despised minority" and how? Are you talking about Indian and Chinese software engineers immigrating to Bay Area, who then make rural american midwest farmers feel like a "despised minority"? I am legit confused how any of that tracks, so I assume you are talking about something else, so I am curious to hear you elaborate on that. Note: I wasn't even born american (but I am white, in case you were trying to pull that "of course you disagree, because you are the minority being referenced" card), and I can assure you that I feel like less of a "despised minority" here than I do in my country of birth (where I grew up and had spent half of my life). And my country of birth was much much more homogenous in every single way compared to most large european countries, let alone the US. > I am also from Europe, and I pray the US doesn't give us this "amazing asset". If I were you, I wouldn't worry. Doesn't seem like Europe is going to manage to get there anytime soon, not even if they actually tried. Which they haven't yet, but judging by how well they manage to resolve any significant matters like that in Europe in general, I wouldn't place much hope on it going anywhere.
aorist 3y ago
> the US educational system is generally so poor that it's not generating enough people with the necessary technical capabilities to meet employer demand The US educational system might be generating enough people with those skills, but a very large proportion of them are foreigners who would need visas to work (40-50% of STEM postgrads: https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IF/IF11347 https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IF/IF11347)
retinaros 3y ago
if that were true indians woudlnt be the highest-earning ethnic group in USA
deleted 3y ago
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fnord77 3y ago

would love to see the breakdown by STEM field. I'm guessing most are going toward computer programming/support roles, but I could be wrong

jqpabc123 3y ago
Having worked in STEM fields other than IT, I can assure you it is not the only one affected here.
- apwell23 3y ago
  > it is not the only one affected here. Thats why parent comment said most.
bsdpufferfish 3y ago
Yep, s_em employment is dominated by US defense.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago

>“You don’t have any accomplishments,” the lawyer told him. “You don’t have a patent, or even a product.” That scolding spurred Sanjay to make a list of what he needed to do to achieve his goal of staying permanently. He improved the technology his AI-based firm was developing, expanded its customer base, and filed for a U.S. patent, which was awarded earlier this year. In May those efforts paid off, allowing him to move from an O-1A to a EB-1 visa, which grants him permanent residency. Question from non-USA-an here. I wonder if this will lead people to spam the patent office with low quality inventions hoping something will stick and help them secure a EB-1 visa.

satya71 3y ago
Not any more than other patent applicants. Currently all the layers in patent application process is incentivized to ignore quality. 1. Large companies pay a bonus for every patent applied and bigger one for approval. 2. Patent lawyers are paid for filed patents. 3. Patent office makes money on each patent. They view the review process as a cost center and optimize it for fast approval.
- isbvhodnvemrwvn 3y ago
  > Currently all the layers in patent application process is incentivized to ignore quality. Hasn't it always been the case? There's a ton of old patents for shit which can't work as described.
- paulryanrogers 3y ago
  Outsourcing real approval to the courts, what could possibly go wrong?
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    Would be fine if courts were sufficiently funded such that adjudication happened within weeks.
- bumby 3y ago
  >Currently all the layers in patent application process is incentivized to ignore quality. Not just "incentivized to ignore quality", they aren't duty-bound to consider quality at all. The PTO evaluates applications for novelty, not quality. The three main relevant parts of the US Code are: 35 USC Sec. 101: is it patentable? (i.e., it must be a process, machine, process, or manufactured good. It can't be something like an idea or song) 35 USC Sec. 102: is it novel? (i.e., no one single prior existing item teaches all the limitations of the patent claims) 35 USC Sec. 103: is it non-obvious? (i.e., you can't combine a couple of different patents to arrive at your patent) There's a few other important sections (like 112 that ensures you're giving enough detail), but none of them look at "quality". In other words, you can patent a worthless invention as long as it passes those wickets. Edit: Somewhat surprisingly to some, they don't necessarily evaluate infringement either. So you could, in theory, have a novel patent that you can't use to make something because it infringes on an existing patent.

lgleason 3y ago

Expect further downward pressure on US tech salaries.

_factor 3y ago
At the benefit of a stronger economy.
- mlindner 3y ago
  Completely agree. The pay is high because the demand is higher than the supply.
addicted 3y ago
Ah yes, the last 30 odd years of increasing immigration has exerted tremendous downward pressure on US tech salaries. And countries in Europe that have not seen as much Tech immigration have seen huge boosts in Tech salaries. Comparable Europeans earn almost 1/3 - 1/2 what their American counterparts do today!
- dougmwne 3y ago
  But really, it’s much easier to enter the EU. You have dozens of countries with their own rules so there are many more options. Plus immigration rules tend to be much easier than the US with its famously strict legal immigration with low caps. Indeed, this balance between supply and demand is exactly what keeps US tech salaries high. Our dynamic economy creates a lot of tech roles while our restrictive immigration limits high skill immigrants from filling those roles, raising salaries. Tech companies have been lobbying unsuccessfully for years to raise or eliminate the h-1b cap, which would absolutely cut salaries. That’s why they are lobbying for it, to reduce their labor costs. Personally I think this is all going to be moot anyway. With software development becoming a mostly remote role after the pandemic, I’ve seen a lot less barrier over the past few years to hiring offshore teams. My own small division of 100 people has offshore teams in 3 countries.
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jmyeet 3y ago

There's no changes that affect the real bottleneck: the annual quota on green cards and the per-country limits of 7% or children aging out. Those all require Congressional action and that's just not going to happen in the current political environment [1]. Here's my take: you get a work visa for 3-5 years that's tied to your employer and allows you to freely leave and re-enter the US. Believe it or not, we still have visa holders that can't leave the US without having to re-apply for their visa. On renewal that becomes a 3-5 year visa that isn't tied to your employer. You can freely change jobs. At the end of that period, it just becomes a green card as long as you satisfy presence tests. Naturalization has continuous and physical presence tests. Just use those. Failing that it is simply renewed for another 3-5 years. If you satisfy the extraordinary category or get a NIW you simply skip the first step of having an employer-tied visa. This would free up USCIS to deal with actual visa fraud rather than all the pointless hoops they currently (are forced to) enforce. [1]: https://spectrumnews1.com/oh/columbus/news/2023/12/21/congress-ineffective-2023 https://spectrumnews1.com/oh/columbus/news/2023/12/21/congre...

pc86 3y ago
Won't this just dramatically shrink the number of initial work visas given out? Because you'll have to assume each one is now just a green card with extra steps.
- jmyeet 3y ago
  Why do we need a quota for qualified people getting work visas (or green cards) at all? We don't.
  - sokoloff 3y ago
    If the qualifications are for a field that has 95 workers for every 100 jobs, come on in. If it’s for a field that already has 105 workers for every 100 jobs, I can see a lot of reasons ($$$) why current residents would want to see their potential competitors stifled or limited in number.
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dimmke 3y ago

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addicted 3y ago
I suspect 99% of the people impacted by this are already working in the U.S.
seanmcdirmid 3y ago
A historic year of tech layoffs? Does that mean most tech layoffs ever? Or just that layoffs occurred when they didn’t in the last few years?
- ssgodderidge 3y ago
  Every layoff is “historic” to those affected
- apwell23 3y ago
  > does that mean most tech layoffs ever why would it mean that? historic= famous or important in history, or potentially so. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/historic https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/historic
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    Historic means the year must be notable for something. Otherwise, it is just being used as embellishment here. I doubt 2023 layoffs will actually make it into the history books.
    - apwell23 3y ago
      True but that still has nothing do with "most layoffs ever" which you used to discredit that comment.
- pfisherman 3y ago
  Well I assume that GP wasn’t around for the dot com bust or 2008. “We are all ready to win, just as we are all born knowing only life” - Han (Enter the Dragon)

ChumpGPT 3y ago

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jqpabc123 3y ago

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booleandilemma 3y ago

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jmyeet 3y ago

I'm a little surprised to see a number of anti-immigraiton comments on this thread, some of which you could describe as reactionary. The US is and always has been a country of immigrants. Your idea of who is and isn't an immigrant is simply a question of what time window you choose. In 1800, the US had a population of ~2 million. by 1900 it was ~50 million. You want to guess how itt got that way? Let's dispense of the common issues: 1. Tech layoffs. This is unrelated to immigration. This is de facto employer colusion to suppress wages. Notice how all the tech companies started doing layoffs at about the same time? The counterargument is "economic conditions". You may have a point with VC funding drying up due to rising interest rates but many of the biggest companies are massively profitable. Profits tend to fall so they want to suppress costs to maintain profits. That's it. I will say that layoffs should basically prohibit you from applying for more work visas for a period. For example: if you've laid off anyone in the last year, sorry you can't sponsor a work visa. You can escape this by, say, paying severance of at least a year's total compensation. The point is to remove the economic incentive of suppressing wages from the layoff-then-rehire cycle. 2. Lowering wages. Restricted immigration actually lowers wages. Why? Because it allows employs to pay undocumented workers less. Poultry farms are an excellent example of this. They pay undocuemnted workers less. If they ever start making noise about wages or conditions, you clear them out by calling in an ICE raid, pay a nominal fine, rinse and repeat. How do we know this? Because when states actually go after employers rather than the workers, it's an economic disaster [1]. Also, we used to have a temporary worker program for seasonal and agricultural workers called the Bracero program. This filled an economic need. Eliminating it created more undocumented residents because crossing the border became too difficult and expensive. 3. A rising tide lifts all boats. There's mountains of evidence for this (eg [1]). Unions increase non-union wages. If we didn't have wage suppression by forced undocumented workers it would raise wages for everyone. Immigrants aren't "stealing your jobs" or "lowering your wages". There's a long history of trying to blame immigrants instead of (correctly) blaming the concerted effort by capital owners to lower your wages. [1]: https://www.americanprogress.org/article/alabamas-immigration-disaster/ https://www.americanprogress.org/article/alabamas-immigratio... [2]: https://www.workrisenetwork.org/working-knowledge/unions-raise-pay-nonunion-workers https://www.workrisenetwork.org/working-knowledge/unions-rai...

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ren_engineer 3y ago

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danking00 3y ago

Watching friends work through the decades long journey of citizenship, going to prestigious undergrad institutions, getting PhDs, publishing in journals, teaching part-time while working full time in industry, all just to get the right to stay in the country they’ve lived since they were 18 is fucking depressing. I doubt I’d qualify for EB-1 [1]. I’d have qualified for EB-2 at 28 when I attained five years of work experience [2][3]. If I didn’t have a BS I’d need ten years experience. If I had spent the usual five years flailing about in a PhD instead of dropping out early, I’d have delayed “work experience” another three years. Now this hypothetical version of myself waits as short as two years (China-born) and as long as eleven years (India-born) to get an application considered. Meanwhile, they’re trying to maintain work authorization, either via the time-limited OPT or hopefully winning an H1-B which has its own highly competitive lottery. And when they finally get PR/citizenship, their (now quite old) parents have no hope of receiving PR/citizenship so they’ll probably be flying across oceans to care for them as they age. All of this for the mistake of being born in the wrong part of the word. Meanwhile, I’m some fuckup who happened to be born in the US who has never known struggle. It just all seems cosmically unfair. [1] https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/permanent-workers/employment-based-immigration-first-preference-eb-1 https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/permanent... [2] https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/permanent-workers/employment-based-immigration-second-preference-eb-2 https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/permanent... [3] aswell23 is correct that I would qualify for EB-2 based on my BS degree. I had misread the EB-2 requirements. The text originally read: “I’m still two years shy of the 10 year minimum years of experience for EB-2 [2]. So that leaves EB-3.” EDIT: clarify second paragraph with third-person pronouns. EDIT2: clarify based on apwell23’s comment EDIT3: further clarification based on apwell23’s second comment.

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apwell23 3y ago
> At 33 years old I’m still two years shy of the 10 year minimum for EB-2 [2] not sure what your link has to do with age requirement that you mention. eb2 has no age minimum. You also wrote bunch of other falsehoods like visa renewals requiring lottery, renewals don't count against yearly visa quota. Most of the stuff in your comment is not correct.

throwdef 3y ago

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aiisahik 3y ago

I'm an Australian citizen who has lived in the US for over 20 years, gotten degrees from Yale and Berkeley. I've worked as a software engineer for over 10 years and am currently a cofounder. I'm so put off by the immigration process in the US that I have decided to leave the US permanently. Don't worry - i still work for the same US based company remotely from a more cost effective nation. I just don't pay your taxes anymore.

psychlops 3y ago
You should try the Australian immigration process.
- aiisahik 3y ago
  Australian immigration process is a breeze! I'm am Immigrant to Australia too.
- BeetleB 3y ago
  Unless things changed recently, Australian immigration is much easier for a person of his profile.
  - psychlops 3y ago
    Fair, that fit his profile.
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rayiner 3y ago
That seems like a win-win. Hopefully remote work will reduce the need for immigration.
- aiisahik 3y ago
  I hire a ton of engineers in LATAM who have no interest in migrating to US. They get paid well in USD, they live in kings and queens in their respective low cost countries. In fact, looking at their live inspired me to make the decision to leave.

syngrog66 3y ago

with the massive layoffs of American software folks the last year its a bad time to boost foreign STEM visas. yikes

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TheCaptain4815 3y ago

This is a good start, but without solving the elephant in the room (illegal immigration), there will never be the political capital to really make these programs efficient and effective.

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piuantiderp 3y ago

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matrix87 3y ago

This isn't bad timing really, we just had a year of layoffs and have a federal election just around the corner. The people who are interested should read up on Trump's previous immigration policy, which looks to be considerably more favorable to domestic citizens https://www.migrationpolicy.org/news/trump-h1b-changes-miss-opportunity-real-reform https://www.migrationpolicy.org/news/trump-h1b-changes-miss-...

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black_13 3y ago

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grungydan 3y ago

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JB_Dev 3y ago
It’s pretty simple - software engineering compensation can be 2x-4x or more in the US compared to other western democracies. Money circumvents a lot of the problems you describe.

jdjdjdkdksmdnd 3y ago

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mgh2 3y ago
What were your circumstances for denial?
Georgelemental 3y ago
To enter a country as a non-citizen is a privilege, that a country has the right to deny for any reason or none. Just as you can deny others entry into your own home or private property, without needing to give any justification. If the border agents are not applying their own stated rules consistently or transparently then that is wrong, but you are not entitled to anything just because you put in "time and effort".
- leoqa 3y ago
  In the U.S. being a CBP is not well regarded and is generally a stepping stone for other federal law enforcement agencies due to the pension system. The guys checking passports are treated like children, I’m sure misuses of privilege can be escalated to a supervisor or complaints can be filed with the OIG or HSI even.
- jdjdjdkdksmdnd 3y ago
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