12 ms·

Tesla blamed drivers for failures of parts it long knew were defective

305 points by musiciangames 3y ago

ksjskskskkk 3y ago
ironically, the seminal paper in economy about information asymmetry bringing overall quality downfall to the entire market was on lemon cars
mschuster91 3y ago
> The documents, dated between 2016 and 2022, include repair reports from Tesla service centers globally; analyses and data reviews by engineers on parts with high failure rates; and memos sent to technicians globally, instructing them to tell consumers that broken parts on their cars were not faulty. This kind of behaviour should be severely penalized by regulatory agencies. Lying to customers is just as bad as lying to investors, and only the latter is punished at the moment - and customers were out massive amounts of their own money to get their cars fixed (or in insurance premium hikes) in addition to the money they all spent, which is an even worse state than an investor is. It's bad enough that companies are allowed to grow so large and dysfunctional that they can legitimately claim "there was no central awareness about <issue>", but what Tesla did here is IMHO intentional fraud. They knew about the issues, knew that they should be liable, but shifted the blame and bills to customers to avoid having issues on their financial statements. And FFS Tesla should be fined for that deceiving tactics by the SEC as well, because the trick of not admitting the risk on their books worked out in the end.
- lynx23 3y ago
  That would be a fatal blow to the advertisment industry...
  - ajsnigrutin 3y ago
    And nothing of value would be lost :)
gumballindie 3y ago
Sounds like british car sellers. Nearly all diesel cars i’ve seen here have DPF issues and nearly all get blamed on customers. Happened to mine but was clever enough to get expert investigation prior to making my dealer do their own. They tried to blame it on me but changed tune once the word “lawyer” was mentioned.
- supermatt 3y ago
  The problem with DPF is that people buy diesel vehicles with big engines and then use them for the school run. Short journeys dont allow the DPF to come up to regeneration temperatures. This is all mentioned in the owners manual, and it says what to do when the warning light comes on. The problem is people dont read the manual, neglect to maintain the DPF as per the instructions, and then end up blaming the DPF. Sure, there are other reasons for a clogged DPF, but they are generally caused by a failure elsewhere, like in the turbo or fuel injectors. BY FAR the biggest cause is short journeys, and then not maintaining via a forced regeneration accordingly. The ONLY purpose of the DPF is to capture particulates in urban environments and then release them when up to temperature on the highway. If your vehicle is nearly always in an urban environment the DPF is effectively pointless, and you shouldnt be driving a diesel. If anything, the dealer should make you sign a waiver to that effect as part of the purchase. Maybe then urbanites would stop driving diesel vehicles to look cool.
  - gumballindie 3y ago
    That is correct, however, none of the people i know with that issue - including myself - have had that driving pattern. Mainly driven on motorways.
    - supermatt 3y ago
      What was the reason they gave you for the DPF failure? The DPF has no moving parts. Aside from impact damage, it can only really get clogged, which shouldn't happen when regularly meeting regeneration temperatures. Some vehicles will have an additional heating matrix, but if regeneration occurs normally they should never be required anyway (they shouldnt really exist at all IMHO - they are effectively "cheating" the purpose of the DPF).
isoprophlex 3y ago
"Move fast and lie" company ran by asshat CEO engages in deceptive business practices. I guess if you can get away with promising "full self driving next year" since 2014, what is described in TFA is just small beer.
- mschuster91 3y ago
  > I guess if you can get away with promising "full self driving next year" since 2014, what is described in TFA is just small beer. IMHO it's the other way around. Promising that some kind of technology is being worked on is just as normal as are setbacks during said development. But this here is outright lying to customers and leaving them stuck with the bills, and it's lying to investors about risks on the company books.
  - IOT_Apprentice 3y ago
    He has customers pay for a feature for 10 years that they have been unable to use. A decade! That smells like fraud.
- netsharc 3y ago
  His title should be Chief Gaslight Officer...
jgilias 3y ago
> “We make the best cars,” he [Musk] said of Tesla at a New York Times event last month. “Whether you hate me, like me or are indifferent, do you want the best car, or do you not want the best car?” Ah, lol. You could’ve argued that Tesla was the best EV some years ago (not any car, mind you, just EV). But now? Since automakers who actually know how to make reliable cars have caught up on the EV part, that’s a pretty ridiculous claim.
- mschuster91 3y ago
  > Since automakers who actually know how to make reliable cars have caught up on the EV part, that’s a pretty ridiculous claim. Most are still years behind Tesla on the range or software quality part. Ask any Volkswagen owner, their software has gone to shit. On top of that they're rare in numbers. Tesla makes more cars in a quarter than BMW in a year, and it's obvious that the focus of the "classic" ICE car industry still lies on huge, gas guzzling, high-margin SUVs.
  - jgilias 3y ago
    I don’t want software from my car manufacturer. I want a thing I can cast Apple CarPlay on. Regarding range, pretty much any EV with a comparable battery pack (kWh-wise) is a peer. And there’s plenty of those now.
    - wddkcs 3y ago
      You don't want software, you just want a thing that relies on software. Got it
      - mort96 3y ago
        They don't want software they have to interact with through the car's UI. Everything relies on software these days, I'm sure they want their brakes to keep working too which requires software, but I think what they tried to communicate came through pretty clearly.
braunjohnson 3y ago
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nottorp 3y ago
In 2021 i tried a Tesla. One of the back doors didn't align properly with the car body. If they can't get that right, how can they get moving parts right?
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  My 2018 Model S has 110k miles on it, mostly Supercharged, with no maintenance except tires and washer fluid. I drive it like I stole it, not a garage queen. Similar reliability from our X and two more recent Ys. Certainly, you’ll hear complaints more often than people are satisfied with the vehicles. The sales volume speaks for itself.
  - ThaDood 3y ago
    How are the panel gaps and the interior holding up?
    - nxm 3y ago
      No car has perfect panel gaps, and even Tesla’s have improved to the where the point is almost moot. Also, a typical buyer is not measuring panel gaps.
      - nottorp 3y ago
        > Also, a typical buyer is not measuring panel gaps. Measure? Why do you think I measured? It was so crooked it was visible from 10 feet away...
    - nottorp 3y ago
      Also, TFA doesn't say all parts are broken. It just says that parts that basically do.not.break in any other car until it's old have come broken in new Teslas. I've never ever heard of a wheel falling off before... and I live in a country where probably more than half the cars are bought used.
      - 3y ago
avree 3y ago
Unrelated question to the article: “They were absolutely petrified,” Jain said of his wife and daughter. “If we were on a 70-mile-per-hour highway, and this would have happened, that would have been catastrophic.” Is it normal for people in the UK (Jain is from Cambridge, England) to use miles-per-hour? I thought it was kilometers-per-hour, generally.
- zimpenfish 3y ago
  Pretty much everything road-related in the UK is in miles (distances, speeds, etc.)
  - orwin 3y ago
    UK uses a sightly shorter mile than what I (western European SI unit user) uses when on water, and that was quite confusing the first time I tried to convert miles/hour to km/hours. Not a huge difference, but noticeable.
    - asdfaoeu 3y ago
      You're talking about nautical mile. Apart from that a mile is a mile.
    - yardie 3y ago
      You're talking of the nautical mile. It's used globally in the marine industry. The nm is 1.1miles or 1.85km. And it's based on 1 arcminute of the circumference of the Earth.
- tolien 3y ago
  Yes, UK-spec speedometers show miles per hour as the major unit (km/h are usually there too but given less emphasis) and speed limits are posted in mph.
- __s 3y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrication_in_the_United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrication_in_the_United_King... > Imperial units are officially used to specify journey distances, vehicle speeds and the sizes of returnable milk containers, beer and cider glasses, fresh milk is often still sold in multiples of pints, with the metric equivalent also marked, and precious metals are sold by the troy ounce
chaosprint 3y ago
I have no strong feeling on Musk, but Tesla is far from being a good product. The vision based system is a disaster, I have been driving a new Model Y MY 2024 for several days and got the following issues: 1. the cruise speed control stops working for 2 times due to "low visibility" on a foggy day. No sound alert but the car just slows down on motorway, which is super dangerous. As a comparison, my previous Hyundai Ioniq 5 can do cruise on foggy day perfectly. 2. There is another time on a single lane, the vision system got confused with oncoming traffic on the opposite lane and made a sudden break. Such behaviour is extremely dangerous on icy road now. Hyundai never had this issue on single lane pilot. 3. When I was on auto steering, the car somehow got confused with a motorway exit and made sudden break on motorway again. As a comparison, Hyundai will tell u: "ok, now I am not sure what to do, you have to control your steer". Tesla tried to be the hero but did a terrible mistake on motorway and I am sure if bad things happen it will just blame users. 4. The vision based system is terrible for reversing. It makes around 20 false alarms every time I reverse into my garage. And the sound engineering is so amateur that it pops/clicks because Tesla team is too unprofessional to know they need a crossfade or envelope. High school student mistake. 5. I have no time to test the emergent brake but Tesla reported a "failure on emergent brake" and I am waiting for service for this. As a comparison, my previous ioniq 5 saved me several times with the brake on parking lot. 6. During my car delivery, I found two scratches on the b-pillar. After they replaced it, the key card is not working... waiting for service again. Some irresponsible people put the types on the back seat and damaged the driver seat leather... unbelievable... I am considering returning it, but on the other hand, I can hardly find a good alternative in Europe for Model Y, which is sad. I have checked ID4, Ioniq 5, EV6, Polestar and many Chinese models. They do have some other issues. Don't trust those reviews online. Their trial time is too short to tell u these issues. Model Y is also poor on suspension, window noise. And the door is harder to close compared with ioniq 5 that I had quite some time with (around 2 months).
- malfist 3y ago
  Your car has tried killing you on multiple occasions and you're only _considering_ returning it?
  - 3y ago
xyst 3y ago
Tesla vehicles are the equivalent of social media advertised items - overhyped junk. Almost fell victim as well but reports of awful build quality and quality assurance (ie, vehicles shipped without brakes [1], hood may open while driving [2]) pushed me to cancel my preorder. [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20220123010452/https://www.motorbiscuit.com/tesla-model-3-delivered-without-brake-pads-normal/ https://web.archive.org/web/20220123010452/https://www.motor... [2] https://web.archive.org/web/20220115192423/https://www.motorsafety.org/tesla-recalls-model-s-vehicles-with-in-your-face-hoods/ https://web.archive.org/web/20220115192423/https://www.motor...
is_true 3y ago
The FORD way. Ford did this a couple of times, that I know of, I experienced it with the Powershift gearbox. The dealerships told you that they'll cover the electronic but you had to buy the clutches or viceversa. But you had to wait to get Ford's approval, if you wanted the fix fast you had to pay.
AndrewKemendo 3y ago
People don’t buy a Tesla because they’re interested in reliability and quality and whatever over long-term. Tesla hasn’t been around long enough to actually prove it, so literally everyone driving on around is driving around a beta test car because it’s fast and is popular. Conversely, buying a Toyota tundra has effectively zero risk. This is a version 10 car that’s not going to have any of these problems has a well understood maintenance and reliability supply chain and has a history of dealers to work with accessory parts and coherent recall procedure, etc.. Which one am I going to trust for my children? The one with a 30+ year safety record. This is playing out exactly as expected if a total psychopath was running the company
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- scottyah 3y ago
  That's a fair assessment, and if you wait long enough the features iterated on at Tesla do come to the other auto companies. I know Tesla helped Toyota with their findings on battery tech. Now it's looking like 48v architecture and drive by wire will come to the masses in a decade or so.
rumblestrut 3y ago
I know someone who used to work for Tesla. They said after working there and seeing how poor the quality was, they would never buy one.
- boobsbr 3y ago
  You can say that about every single company and industry. You would be REALLY worried about your money if you knew how things work inside banks.
  - acdha 3y ago
    > You would be REALLY worried about your money if you knew how things work inside banks. No, because banks are regulated and insured. If your bank fails, you’ll get your money back. As the article you’re commenting on describes, if your Tesla fails there’s a good chance you’ll be asked to pay out of pocket to fix their problems.
paxys 3y ago
I just read a news item that Musk uninstalled the Disney+ app from the entire Tesla fleet as retaliation for Disney pulling advertising from X. I bet Tesla owners/shareholders are thrilled that they are being used as collateral in a fight that has nothing to do with them.
- flutas 3y ago
  > I just read a news item that Musk uninstalled the Disney+ app from the entire Tesla fleet as retaliation for Disney pulling advertising from X. Mine still has it, as well as a number of people. Everything I've seen is saying it was a bug[0] as it's happening to some cars and not others, and if it has disappeared, going to disneyplus.com in the browser makes it show back up.[1] [0]: https://twitter.com/WholeMarsBlog/status/1736641032677372163 https://twitter.com/WholeMarsBlog/status/1736641032677372163 [1]: https://twitter.com/WholeMarsBlog/status/1736652882622161332 https://twitter.com/WholeMarsBlog/status/1736652882622161332 --- EDIT: To the down-voters, you know there's a reply button to point out why you think I'm wrong, right?
  - ceejayoz 3y ago
    Is this bug affecting any any other apps?
    - flutas 3y ago
      At this time? Only their in-house FSD Beta software. https://twitter.com/teslascope/status/1737413197781696609 https://twitter.com/teslascope/status/1737413197781696609 In the past? Also yes. Tidal: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/tidal-app-disappeared.269725/ https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/tidal-app-disappeare... TuneIn: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/tunein-gone.262861/ https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/tunein-gone.262861/ All of the entertainment apps: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/tesla-theater-blank-screen.234874/ https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/tesla-theater-blank-...
  - paxys 3y ago
    https://twitter.com/FredericLambert/status/1736785128175669647 https://twitter.com/FredericLambert/status/17367851281756696...
seltzered_ 3y ago
"Tesla owners who have experienced premature failures of suspension" I believe some have called this 'whompy wheel'. An aftermarket company (Meyle) has even made replacement front control arms for some models: https://youtu.be/24S3LJazOEM https://youtu.be/24S3LJazOEM
fallingknife 3y ago
The numbers included seem to contradict the story. They are alleging that the suspension is defective, but the numbers included don't seem to back it up. They show that the cost of repairs under warranty for suspension components is $3.9 million per year. This actually seems quite low for a company with millions of cars on the road. There is also this: > In other cases, the automaker charged customers with out-of-warranty cars to replace parts that Tesla engineers internally called flawed or that they knew had high failure rates. Engineers ordered repeated redesigns for several parts and discussed seeking money back from suppliers because of the defects. Do car companies ever not charge customers for repairs that are out-of-warranty? And I don't find the fact that the engineers called these parts flawed very significant. Everybody knows that certain makes and models tend to have trouble with their <car part>. I am not surprised that the engineers who made the car can figure these things out too. The anecdotal evidence of the single case of the wheel falling off I don't find particularly damning. First of all the analysis by the engineer does not rule out collision, like the article implies. The direct quote from the engineer is "No convincing evidence to prove a direct impact is the cause of the fracture." This is an indeterminate result. Assuming that this was in fact a defect, when you have a N of millions of cars, you are going to be able to find some catastrophic defects. It's inevitable, and it's the reason why anecdotal evidence is weak. I have a very high bar for accusations, and an even higher bar for accusations against Tesla given the high volume of them, and the low percentage of them actually going anywhere. And I remain unconvinced by this article.
- masswerk 3y ago
  > The anecdotal evidence of the single case of the wheel falling off I don't find particularly damning. Well, similar stories pretty much killed the British car industry.
- metabagel 3y ago
  > They show that the cost of repairs under warranty for suspension components is $3.9 million per year. The article is literally about Tesla denying claims, because they said that vehicle owners “abused” the vehicle.
- sophacles 3y ago
londons_explore 3y ago
One way to make an electric car go efficiently fast and far is to make it light. Extreme effort is taken on Teslas to reduce weight, and part of that will involve making suspension and steering components only as strong as they need to be, but no stronger. That strength is enough for most people - but there will always be some who hit a pothole at speed, slam into a kerb, jack the car up on the wrong point, or otherwise exert forces beyond the design limits. Other cars would survive that because they are overengineered. Tesla's may not. It's a tradeoff you make when you buy the vehicle - you get a faster and more efficient car, but have to be aware that it is more fragile. If you wanted something robust, you could have bought a tank.
- ceejayoz 3y ago
  Tesla has historically been pretty quick to release "we looked at the telemetry and the driver did X Y and Z" when they think it absolves them. In a car only driven 115 miles before the suspension fell apart, it a) should take some pretty extreme driving to cause that in such a short time and b) be pretty obvious in the telemetry.
- AlexandrB 3y ago
  This is quite the "take". But it's also directly contradicted by how Tesla designed the Cybertruck: with thick stainless steel body panels that weigh a ton compared to typical body panels used in cars. This was justified/marketed with the claim that these are bullet-proof - something that is far less relevant to the average driver than hitting a pothole or a curb. So is the Cybertruck the exception to Tesla's design philosophy for some reason?
epolanski 3y ago
I can't believe how much hyped Tesla keeps being, especially in the stock markets. I've seen enough EVs to conclude that Tesla does not make better cars than other automakers, at all. Nobody needs an EV that accelerates more than a Porsche 911, those are vanity pointless metrics. It's conduct is also terrible and customer service plain infuriating.
- scottyah 3y ago
  > I've seen enough EVs to conclude that Tesla does not make better cars than other automakers, at all. Wow this is a bold take as almost every other car manufacturing CEO has publicly stated they need to catch up to Tesla's innovation.
  - turzmo 3y ago
    Neither better innovation nor bigger sales imply better cars.
z7 3y ago
So they start the article with describing one case of technical failure. Then they state: "Jain is one of tens of thousands of Tesla owners who have experienced premature failures of suspension or steering parts." In what time frame? "The chronic failures ... date back at least seven years." Okay, now I'd be interested: How does this number compare to other automotive companies relative to the time frame observed?
- hef19898 3y ago
  If you go by the latest analysis ot TÜV (in Germany have to go through mandatory technical checks for roadworthiness, results arw aggregated and available for interested parties), Teslas have one of the worst pass rates at the initial three year check for new cars, it is 2 year intervalls after that. Over 40%, EDIT: 14% as someone else cited from the TÜV wesite in another comment but still at the bottom of 111 models, of Teslas failed the 3 year test the first time, this is right at the bottom of all cars from all brands. Among the stuff failing: Suspension and steering. So that checks out.
- IOT_Apprentice 3y ago
  Question. Are you a Tesla owner? I’m not, yet every Tesla owner I know has stated they have all experienced quality issues and operational problems needing repair. I read of Musk having teams in Tesla to deny & harass customers who experience now known issues. Not the sign if a stable company or quality focused or providing good service.
mypgovroom 3y ago
No way this article is in good faith.
- rsynnott 3y ago
  … What do you _mean_ by this? Are you claiming that Reuters made it up? Or just that it is insufficiently deferential to Dear Leader? Like, this is investigative journalism; almost by definition it is adversarial.
rsynnott 3y ago
While this article has some very _funny_ bits: > “All I can tell you,” the Tesla manager said, “is we’re not a 100-year-old company like GM and Ford. We haven’t worked all the bugs out yet.” Yes, it takes 100 years to figure out that water is corrosive; you only get told this when you’re invited into whatever the car equivalent of the Freemasons is. There’s nothing particularly _surprising_ here, except for Reuters actually quoting the word ‘fuck’. Reuters! Most US news sources of Reuters-level prestige/stuffiness primly mentions Elmo using ‘an obscenity’, rather than actually quoting him.
aga98mtl 3y ago
The article makes a bunch of grandiose claim, but it never pins down an actual failure rate. It never compares it to other manufacturer. Some cars will have defects if you make millions of them. The main claim seems to be that Tesla has higher defect rate, but it fails to make the case. Instead it veers into unrelated attacks on Musk.
seabird 3y ago
The steering knuckle failure shown in the article is insane. I've never heard of such a thing happening and have never heard of anybody who has heard of such a thing happening on a vehicle from what I will risk calling a "real manufacturer". I am always flabbergasted that there's people willing to just be in a Tesla while they're moving, let alone buy one, but then again, the general public has no real idea of how automotive safety really works. Crazy stuff.
qaq 3y ago
Would be good to have more data. Tesla reporting can be pretty skewed due to huge short positions on the stock and Musk being a total a@@ who decided to bet on fringe right.
cs702 3y ago
If this is true, shame on the company.
- katbyte 3y ago
  If? It is pretty hard to argue it’s not
- amelius 3y ago
  What about its management?
wnevets 3y ago
They're holding it wrong [1] [1] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/blog/2010/jun/25/iphone-reception-problems-solved https://www.theguardian.com/technology/blog/2010/jun/25/ipho...
helf 3y ago
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MattDaEskimo 3y ago
I am not a mechanic - only an enthusiast, but I know that a steering knuckle should never break the way it did in the photo unless there was some flaw in production.
- bumby 3y ago
  That break immediately made me think of the SpaceX strut failure due to supply chain mis-management. Quality checks were not in place, resulting in material that didn't have the structural strength specified.
- belltaco 3y ago
  Would be nice if Reuters actually compared such failures in other cars. But they seem to be hell bent on writing a hit piece with other Tesla unrelated Musk things thrown in rather than actually come up with a good journalistic piece, so I am assuming they found that other manufacturers are the same or worse, so didn't mention it.
  - lawn 3y ago
    The point is that "such failures" are very rare or unheard of, and that Tesla lies about them.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
Titan2189 3y ago
[flagged]
maxdo 3y ago
[flagged]
- enragedcacti 3y ago
  > it’s just a story of one person with questionable proofs I don't think your interpretation of the article is accurate > Jain is one of tens of thousands of Tesla owners who have experienced premature failures of suspension or steering parts, according to a Reuters review of thousands of Tesla documents. > The documents, dated between 2016 and 2022, include repair reports from Tesla service centers globally; analyses and data reviews by engineers on parts with high failure rates; and memos sent to technicians globally, instructing them to tell consumers that broken parts on their cars were not faulty.
- acdha 3y ago
  Just because it’s not something Tesla PR wants to be public does mean it’s a conspiracy theory. This is a well-respected media outlet basing the story on thousands of Tesla’s own documents and interviews with former Tesla employees.
  - belltaco 3y ago
    Why is there nothing about how it obtained the documents or how it verified the authenticity? Also why no comparison against other carmakers? A well respected media outlet would that. Instead it adds some weird things totally out of place. > Neither Musk nor any of his companies commented for these reports. But he recently lashed out at critics of his social-media company, X, formerly Twitter, which has seen its revenue and market value plummet since Musk bought the firm for $44 billion about a year ago. At the live Times event, he went after advertisers who boycotted X over Musk’s endorsement of an antisemitic post on the social-media site. “Go fuck yourself,” the billionaire told companies who pulled their business. How does the second sentence follow from the first? They don't seem related but the second sentence starts with "But he..". Terrible writing.
    - acdha 3y ago
      Look, I get that you have an emotional connection to this company’s image but it’s important to try to think rationally about it. Ask what’s more likely: Reuters not verifying the source of the documents and the people they interviewed so they could run a hit piece on a famously litigious man’s company, or that they did follow standard journalistic practices and it turns out that all of the things you’ve read online about quality control issues are actually representative?
maxdo 3y ago
[flagged]
onethought 3y ago
How often do other manufacturers do this? I recall from memory: VW had a loss of power problem they blamed on drivers. Toyota had throttle by wire problem they blamed on drivers. Not defending Tesla here, this is all shit. But to me this is more about some kind of safety and repairs regulation, than the usual: Elon is bad.
- MBCook 3y ago
  To me the issue isn’t that it happened… it’s that it happened over and over and over. It seems more like a pattern/SOP than a single mistake they’re embarrassed about.
- bumby 3y ago
  It feels a bit more damning when they share a "talking points" memo to service centers to direct them how to characterize the failures. Add to that, they had internal engineers saying the actual failure rate is much higher than what was being reported, and it seems like it's venturing into fraud territory.
  - onethought 3y ago
    You mean how VW directed their dealerships to deny there was a power problem while also directing their engineering team to come up with a fix? Sounds pretty similar to me.
    - bumby 3y ago
      Yes. So I’m assuming from your statement, you would agree that Tesla c/should be fine billions of dollars for fraud, just as VW was? To be clear, I’m not saying Tesla is unique in this regard. I’m saying there are degrees ranging from “good faith engineering mistakes that are handled appropriately” and “fraud”. The Tesla memos and whistleblower claims seem to tilt it closer to the latter.
      - onethought 3y ago
        Agree. But further than fines. They should fix their certification program to include sampling. Not just testing a purpose made testing vehicle.
autoexec 3y ago
Even if I liked the cars, and they aren't for me, I don't think I'd get a Tesla just because the company seems so terrible.
fgsfds028374 3y ago
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deergomoo 3y ago
There was a time when a Tesla was something I aspired to own one day, but now I don't think I'd get one even if I had a free pick of any car in that price range. From what I understand they still lead the EV space in several metrics, but other manufacturers have done a lot of catching up in the last few years. Add that to greater reliability and build quality, and inclusion of physical controls (anyone who thinks replacing the indicator/turn signal stalk with capacitive buttons is sensible has clearly never driven in the UK—my 15 minute drive into the office crosses 11 roundabouts). Plus I've developed such a strong personal distaste for Musk over the last few years that it's hard to want to give him money, however indirectly.
- pclmulqdq 3y ago
  As it turns out, producing a quality product takes a long time. Tesla got to market early by not producing a quality product, but I assumed they would raise the quality bar after they got mass adoption.
  - tmpz22 3y ago
    > Tesla got to market early by not producing a quality product I'd argue Tesla min/maxed aspects of their product that gave them a initial strong lead in product space. Quintessentially performance/distance/charger-availability, but also some aspects of their tech really stood out like the touchscreen performance and mobile integration (relative to what other cars had in the mid 2010s. IMO that initial lead has diminished. Other brands are catching up and do better in terms of some aspects of quality control and now reputation. If this trend continues I think we could see Tesla losing in most metrics, although we still probably have a good chunk of time until that happens. If I had to buy an electric car today Tesla would still be one of the first cars I researched. Maybe Tesla would win. But in a few years I wholly expect another brand would win out.
  - FireBeyond 3y ago
    ... and by espousing that they knew better than legacy auto how to build the lines, and ignoring a century of learned study.
  - 3y ago
MBCook 3y ago
So is Elon enough of a majority shareholder that he’s untouchable? Or is the company set up like FB where no matter what he controls a majority of voting shares? Of is it just that no investors were willing to touch it because it just kept making more money do oh well? So much stuff keeps coming out I’m left wondering why there isn’t a bigger push for a management change.
- pclmulqdq 3y ago
  Elon Musk packs his boards with cronies. He has a relatively small minority of the shares and the votes in both Tesla and SpaceX.
  - DoesntMatter22 3y ago
    He's the largest shareholder in both so idk what you mean by "small minority"
    - mcguire 3y ago
      The largest single shareholder. Musk owns 12.9% of Tesla; the second largest is Vanguard, with 6.9%, followed by various other investment fund companies.
      - DoesntMatter22 3y ago
        A shareholder is singular. What else can a person or company be but a single shareholder? He by far and away owns the most stock of any person or organization.
        MBCook 3y ago
        If the largest shareholder had 50.0001% of the shares, they’d be untouchable. No matter what, as long as they can vote they can get their way even if every other shareholder wants ‘em out. If the largest shareholder (let’s say Frank) has 5% of the shares it’s possible to overrule them. You just need enough people to band with you that your collective shares outnumber the collective shares of Frank and others who will vote with him. I should also note that this only matters for voting shares. I can own 97% of Microsoft shares and if I don’t have any voting shares I get as much direct say as my dog.
mcguire 3y ago
Tom and Ray, the Car Talk guys: "There are three kinds of problems with cars. First, things that don't really matter, like the radio. Second, things that will leave you stranded, like the engine. And third, things that will leave you dead, like the brakes and suspension."
advael 3y ago
I continue to have zero interest in any kind of "smart car" and consider all of this downstream to Tesla's leaning heavily into that business model. If they already have invested in building you a product that assumes the company is making the decisions on the road, defies user expectation constantly, and by and large extorts you for features already present in the vehicle at every turn, why wouldn't they also be running a monopolized in-house repair scam like apple? If they already have a legal team set up to blame end-users for failures of its hideously user-hostile autopilot features, why wouldn't they use the same tactics to also blame end-users for any and all mechanical failures? I will continue to avoid paying egregious sums of money to be a guinea pig for the attempted enshittification of moving through the physical world, thanks

305 points by musiciangames 3y ago

ironically, the seminal paper in economy about information asymmetry bringing overall quality downfall to the entire market was on lemon cars

mschuster91 3y ago

> The documents, dated between 2016 and 2022, include repair reports from Tesla service centers globally; analyses and data reviews by engineers on parts with high failure rates; and memos sent to technicians globally, instructing them to tell consumers that broken parts on their cars were not faulty. This kind of behaviour should be severely penalized by regulatory agencies. Lying to customers is just as bad as lying to investors, and only the latter is punished at the moment - and customers were out massive amounts of their own money to get their cars fixed (or in insurance premium hikes) in addition to the money they all spent, which is an even worse state than an investor is. It's bad enough that companies are allowed to grow so large and dysfunctional that they can legitimately claim "there was no central awareness about <issue>", but what Tesla did here is IMHO intentional fraud. They knew about the issues, knew that they should be liable, but shifted the blame and bills to customers to avoid having issues on their financial statements. And FFS Tesla should be fined for that deceiving tactics by the SEC as well, because the trick of not admitting the risk on their books worked out in the end.

lynx23 3y ago
That would be a fatal blow to the advertisment industry...
- ajsnigrutin 3y ago
  And nothing of value would be lost :)

gumballindie 3y ago

Sounds like british car sellers. Nearly all diesel cars i’ve seen here have DPF issues and nearly all get blamed on customers. Happened to mine but was clever enough to get expert investigation prior to making my dealer do their own. They tried to blame it on me but changed tune once the word “lawyer” was mentioned.

supermatt 3y ago
The problem with DPF is that people buy diesel vehicles with big engines and then use them for the school run. Short journeys dont allow the DPF to come up to regeneration temperatures. This is all mentioned in the owners manual, and it says what to do when the warning light comes on. The problem is people dont read the manual, neglect to maintain the DPF as per the instructions, and then end up blaming the DPF. Sure, there are other reasons for a clogged DPF, but they are generally caused by a failure elsewhere, like in the turbo or fuel injectors. BY FAR the biggest cause is short journeys, and then not maintaining via a forced regeneration accordingly. The ONLY purpose of the DPF is to capture particulates in urban environments and then release them when up to temperature on the highway. If your vehicle is nearly always in an urban environment the DPF is effectively pointless, and you shouldnt be driving a diesel. If anything, the dealer should make you sign a waiver to that effect as part of the purchase. Maybe then urbanites would stop driving diesel vehicles to look cool.
- gumballindie 3y ago
  That is correct, however, none of the people i know with that issue - including myself - have had that driving pattern. Mainly driven on motorways.
  - supermatt 3y ago
    What was the reason they gave you for the DPF failure? The DPF has no moving parts. Aside from impact damage, it can only really get clogged, which shouldn't happen when regularly meeting regeneration temperatures. Some vehicles will have an additional heating matrix, but if regeneration occurs normally they should never be required anyway (they shouldnt really exist at all IMHO - they are effectively "cheating" the purpose of the DPF).

isoprophlex 3y ago

"Move fast and lie" company ran by asshat CEO engages in deceptive business practices. I guess if you can get away with promising "full self driving next year" since 2014, what is described in TFA is just small beer.

mschuster91 3y ago
> I guess if you can get away with promising "full self driving next year" since 2014, what is described in TFA is just small beer. IMHO it's the other way around. Promising that some kind of technology is being worked on is just as normal as are setbacks during said development. But this here is outright lying to customers and leaving them stuck with the bills, and it's lying to investors about risks on the company books.
- IOT_Apprentice 3y ago
  He has customers pay for a feature for 10 years that they have been unable to use. A decade! That smells like fraud.
netsharc 3y ago
His title should be Chief Gaslight Officer...

jgilias 3y ago

> “We make the best cars,” he [Musk] said of Tesla at a New York Times event last month. “Whether you hate me, like me or are indifferent, do you want the best car, or do you not want the best car?” Ah, lol. You could’ve argued that Tesla was the best EV some years ago (not any car, mind you, just EV). But now? Since automakers who actually know how to make reliable cars have caught up on the EV part, that’s a pretty ridiculous claim.

mschuster91 3y ago
> Since automakers who actually know how to make reliable cars have caught up on the EV part, that’s a pretty ridiculous claim. Most are still years behind Tesla on the range or software quality part. Ask any Volkswagen owner, their software has gone to shit. On top of that they're rare in numbers. Tesla makes more cars in a quarter than BMW in a year, and it's obvious that the focus of the "classic" ICE car industry still lies on huge, gas guzzling, high-margin SUVs.
- jgilias 3y ago
  I don’t want software from my car manufacturer. I want a thing I can cast Apple CarPlay on. Regarding range, pretty much any EV with a comparable battery pack (kWh-wise) is a peer. And there’s plenty of those now.
  - wddkcs 3y ago
    You don't want software, you just want a thing that relies on software. Got it
    - mort96 3y ago
      They don't want software they have to interact with through the car's UI. Everything relies on software these days, I'm sure they want their brakes to keep working too which requires software, but I think what they tried to communicate came through pretty clearly.

braunjohnson 3y ago

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nottorp 3y ago

In 2021 i tried a Tesla. One of the back doors didn't align properly with the car body. If they can't get that right, how can they get moving parts right?

toomuchtodo 3y ago
My 2018 Model S has 110k miles on it, mostly Supercharged, with no maintenance except tires and washer fluid. I drive it like I stole it, not a garage queen. Similar reliability from our X and two more recent Ys. Certainly, you’ll hear complaints more often than people are satisfied with the vehicles. The sales volume speaks for itself.
- ThaDood 3y ago
  How are the panel gaps and the interior holding up?
  - nxm 3y ago
    No car has perfect panel gaps, and even Tesla’s have improved to the where the point is almost moot. Also, a typical buyer is not measuring panel gaps.
    - nottorp 3y ago
      > Also, a typical buyer is not measuring panel gaps. Measure? Why do you think I measured? It was so crooked it was visible from 10 feet away...
  - nottorp 3y ago
    Also, TFA doesn't say all parts are broken. It just says that parts that basically do.not.break in any other car until it's old have come broken in new Teslas. I've never ever heard of a wheel falling off before... and I live in a country where probably more than half the cars are bought used.
    - 3y ago

avree 3y ago

Unrelated question to the article: “They were absolutely petrified,” Jain said of his wife and daughter. “If we were on a 70-mile-per-hour highway, and this would have happened, that would have been catastrophic.” Is it normal for people in the UK (Jain is from Cambridge, England) to use miles-per-hour? I thought it was kilometers-per-hour, generally.

zimpenfish 3y ago
Pretty much everything road-related in the UK is in miles (distances, speeds, etc.)
- orwin 3y ago
  UK uses a sightly shorter mile than what I (western European SI unit user) uses when on water, and that was quite confusing the first time I tried to convert miles/hour to km/hours. Not a huge difference, but noticeable.
  - asdfaoeu 3y ago
    You're talking about nautical mile. Apart from that a mile is a mile.
  - yardie 3y ago
    You're talking of the nautical mile. It's used globally in the marine industry. The nm is 1.1miles or 1.85km. And it's based on 1 arcminute of the circumference of the Earth.
tolien 3y ago
Yes, UK-spec speedometers show miles per hour as the major unit (km/h are usually there too but given less emphasis) and speed limits are posted in mph.
__s 3y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrication_in_the_United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrication_in_the_United_King... > Imperial units are officially used to specify journey distances, vehicle speeds and the sizes of returnable milk containers, beer and cider glasses, fresh milk is often still sold in multiples of pints, with the metric equivalent also marked, and precious metals are sold by the troy ounce

chaosprint 3y ago

I have no strong feeling on Musk, but Tesla is far from being a good product. The vision based system is a disaster, I have been driving a new Model Y MY 2024 for several days and got the following issues: 1. the cruise speed control stops working for 2 times due to "low visibility" on a foggy day. No sound alert but the car just slows down on motorway, which is super dangerous. As a comparison, my previous Hyundai Ioniq 5 can do cruise on foggy day perfectly. 2. There is another time on a single lane, the vision system got confused with oncoming traffic on the opposite lane and made a sudden break. Such behaviour is extremely dangerous on icy road now. Hyundai never had this issue on single lane pilot. 3. When I was on auto steering, the car somehow got confused with a motorway exit and made sudden break on motorway again. As a comparison, Hyundai will tell u: "ok, now I am not sure what to do, you have to control your steer". Tesla tried to be the hero but did a terrible mistake on motorway and I am sure if bad things happen it will just blame users. 4. The vision based system is terrible for reversing. It makes around 20 false alarms every time I reverse into my garage. And the sound engineering is so amateur that it pops/clicks because Tesla team is too unprofessional to know they need a crossfade or envelope. High school student mistake. 5. I have no time to test the emergent brake but Tesla reported a "failure on emergent brake" and I am waiting for service for this. As a comparison, my previous ioniq 5 saved me several times with the brake on parking lot. 6. During my car delivery, I found two scratches on the b-pillar. After they replaced it, the key card is not working... waiting for service again. Some irresponsible people put the types on the back seat and damaged the driver seat leather... unbelievable... I am considering returning it, but on the other hand, I can hardly find a good alternative in Europe for Model Y, which is sad. I have checked ID4, Ioniq 5, EV6, Polestar and many Chinese models. They do have some other issues. Don't trust those reviews online. Their trial time is too short to tell u these issues. Model Y is also poor on suspension, window noise. And the door is harder to close compared with ioniq 5 that I had quite some time with (around 2 months).

malfist 3y ago
Your car has tried killing you on multiple occasions and you're only _considering_ returning it?
- 3y ago

xyst 3y ago

Tesla vehicles are the equivalent of social media advertised items - overhyped junk. Almost fell victim as well but reports of awful build quality and quality assurance (ie, vehicles shipped without brakes [1], hood may open while driving [2]) pushed me to cancel my preorder. [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20220123010452/https://www.motorbiscuit.com/tesla-model-3-delivered-without-brake-pads-normal/ https://web.archive.org/web/20220123010452/https://www.motor... [2] https://web.archive.org/web/20220115192423/https://www.motorsafety.org/tesla-recalls-model-s-vehicles-with-in-your-face-hoods/ https://web.archive.org/web/20220115192423/https://www.motor...

is_true 3y ago

The FORD way. Ford did this a couple of times, that I know of, I experienced it with the Powershift gearbox. The dealerships told you that they'll cover the electronic but you had to buy the clutches or viceversa. But you had to wait to get Ford's approval, if you wanted the fix fast you had to pay.

AndrewKemendo 3y ago

People don’t buy a Tesla because they’re interested in reliability and quality and whatever over long-term. Tesla hasn’t been around long enough to actually prove it, so literally everyone driving on around is driving around a beta test car because it’s fast and is popular. Conversely, buying a Toyota tundra has effectively zero risk. This is a version 10 car that’s not going to have any of these problems has a well understood maintenance and reliability supply chain and has a history of dealers to work with accessory parts and coherent recall procedure, etc.. Which one am I going to trust for my children? The one with a 30+ year safety record. This is playing out exactly as expected if a total psychopath was running the company

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
scottyah 3y ago
That's a fair assessment, and if you wait long enough the features iterated on at Tesla do come to the other auto companies. I know Tesla helped Toyota with their findings on battery tech. Now it's looking like 48v architecture and drive by wire will come to the masses in a decade or so.

rumblestrut 3y ago

I know someone who used to work for Tesla. They said after working there and seeing how poor the quality was, they would never buy one.

boobsbr 3y ago
You can say that about every single company and industry. You would be REALLY worried about your money if you knew how things work inside banks.
- acdha 3y ago
  > You would be REALLY worried about your money if you knew how things work inside banks. No, because banks are regulated and insured. If your bank fails, you’ll get your money back. As the article you’re commenting on describes, if your Tesla fails there’s a good chance you’ll be asked to pay out of pocket to fix their problems.

paxys 3y ago

I just read a news item that Musk uninstalled the Disney+ app from the entire Tesla fleet as retaliation for Disney pulling advertising from X. I bet Tesla owners/shareholders are thrilled that they are being used as collateral in a fight that has nothing to do with them.

flutas 3y ago
> I just read a news item that Musk uninstalled the Disney+ app from the entire Tesla fleet as retaliation for Disney pulling advertising from X. Mine still has it, as well as a number of people. Everything I've seen is saying it was a bug[0] as it's happening to some cars and not others, and if it has disappeared, going to disneyplus.com in the browser makes it show back up.[1] [0]: https://twitter.com/WholeMarsBlog/status/1736641032677372163 https://twitter.com/WholeMarsBlog/status/1736641032677372163 [1]: https://twitter.com/WholeMarsBlog/status/1736652882622161332 https://twitter.com/WholeMarsBlog/status/1736652882622161332 --- EDIT: To the down-voters, you know there's a reply button to point out why you think I'm wrong, right?
- ceejayoz 3y ago
  Is this bug affecting any any other apps?
  - flutas 3y ago
    At this time? Only their in-house FSD Beta software. https://twitter.com/teslascope/status/1737413197781696609 https://twitter.com/teslascope/status/1737413197781696609 In the past? Also yes. Tidal: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/tidal-app-disappeared.269725/ https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/tidal-app-disappeare... TuneIn: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/tunein-gone.262861/ https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/tunein-gone.262861/ All of the entertainment apps: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/tesla-theater-blank-screen.234874/ https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/tesla-theater-blank-...
- paxys 3y ago
  https://twitter.com/FredericLambert/status/1736785128175669647 https://twitter.com/FredericLambert/status/17367851281756696...

seltzered_ 3y ago

"Tesla owners who have experienced premature failures of suspension" I believe some have called this 'whompy wheel'. An aftermarket company (Meyle) has even made replacement front control arms for some models: https://youtu.be/24S3LJazOEM https://youtu.be/24S3LJazOEM

fallingknife 3y ago

The numbers included seem to contradict the story. They are alleging that the suspension is defective, but the numbers included don't seem to back it up. They show that the cost of repairs under warranty for suspension components is $3.9 million per year. This actually seems quite low for a company with millions of cars on the road. There is also this: > In other cases, the automaker charged customers with out-of-warranty cars to replace parts that Tesla engineers internally called flawed or that they knew had high failure rates. Engineers ordered repeated redesigns for several parts and discussed seeking money back from suppliers because of the defects. Do car companies ever not charge customers for repairs that are out-of-warranty? And I don't find the fact that the engineers called these parts flawed very significant. Everybody knows that certain makes and models tend to have trouble with their <car part>. I am not surprised that the engineers who made the car can figure these things out too. The anecdotal evidence of the single case of the wheel falling off I don't find particularly damning. First of all the analysis by the engineer does not rule out collision, like the article implies. The direct quote from the engineer is "No convincing evidence to prove a direct impact is the cause of the fracture." This is an indeterminate result. Assuming that this was in fact a defect, when you have a N of millions of cars, you are going to be able to find some catastrophic defects. It's inevitable, and it's the reason why anecdotal evidence is weak. I have a very high bar for accusations, and an even higher bar for accusations against Tesla given the high volume of them, and the low percentage of them actually going anywhere. And I remain unconvinced by this article.

masswerk 3y ago
> The anecdotal evidence of the single case of the wheel falling off I don't find particularly damning. Well, similar stories pretty much killed the British car industry.
metabagel 3y ago
> They show that the cost of repairs under warranty for suspension components is $3.9 million per year. The article is literally about Tesla denying claims, because they said that vehicle owners “abused” the vehicle.
sophacles 3y ago

londons_explore 3y ago

One way to make an electric car go efficiently fast and far is to make it light. Extreme effort is taken on Teslas to reduce weight, and part of that will involve making suspension and steering components only as strong as they need to be, but no stronger. That strength is enough for most people - but there will always be some who hit a pothole at speed, slam into a kerb, jack the car up on the wrong point, or otherwise exert forces beyond the design limits. Other cars would survive that because they are overengineered. Tesla's may not. It's a tradeoff you make when you buy the vehicle - you get a faster and more efficient car, but have to be aware that it is more fragile. If you wanted something robust, you could have bought a tank.

ceejayoz 3y ago
Tesla has historically been pretty quick to release "we looked at the telemetry and the driver did X Y and Z" when they think it absolves them. In a car only driven 115 miles before the suspension fell apart, it a) should take some pretty extreme driving to cause that in such a short time and b) be pretty obvious in the telemetry.
AlexandrB 3y ago
This is quite the "take". But it's also directly contradicted by how Tesla designed the Cybertruck: with thick stainless steel body panels that weigh a ton compared to typical body panels used in cars. This was justified/marketed with the claim that these are bullet-proof - something that is far less relevant to the average driver than hitting a pothole or a curb. So is the Cybertruck the exception to Tesla's design philosophy for some reason?

epolanski 3y ago

I can't believe how much hyped Tesla keeps being, especially in the stock markets. I've seen enough EVs to conclude that Tesla does not make better cars than other automakers, at all. Nobody needs an EV that accelerates more than a Porsche 911, those are vanity pointless metrics. It's conduct is also terrible and customer service plain infuriating.

scottyah 3y ago
> I've seen enough EVs to conclude that Tesla does not make better cars than other automakers, at all. Wow this is a bold take as almost every other car manufacturing CEO has publicly stated they need to catch up to Tesla's innovation.
- turzmo 3y ago
  Neither better innovation nor bigger sales imply better cars.

z7 3y ago

So they start the article with describing one case of technical failure. Then they state: "Jain is one of tens of thousands of Tesla owners who have experienced premature failures of suspension or steering parts." In what time frame? "The chronic failures ... date back at least seven years." Okay, now I'd be interested: How does this number compare to other automotive companies relative to the time frame observed?

hef19898 3y ago
If you go by the latest analysis ot TÜV (in Germany have to go through mandatory technical checks for roadworthiness, results arw aggregated and available for interested parties), Teslas have one of the worst pass rates at the initial three year check for new cars, it is 2 year intervalls after that. Over 40%, EDIT: 14% as someone else cited from the TÜV wesite in another comment but still at the bottom of 111 models, of Teslas failed the 3 year test the first time, this is right at the bottom of all cars from all brands. Among the stuff failing: Suspension and steering. So that checks out.
IOT_Apprentice 3y ago
Question. Are you a Tesla owner? I’m not, yet every Tesla owner I know has stated they have all experienced quality issues and operational problems needing repair. I read of Musk having teams in Tesla to deny & harass customers who experience now known issues. Not the sign if a stable company or quality focused or providing good service.

mypgovroom 3y ago

No way this article is in good faith.

rsynnott 3y ago
… What do you _mean_ by this? Are you claiming that Reuters made it up? Or just that it is insufficiently deferential to Dear Leader? Like, this is investigative journalism; almost by definition it is adversarial.

rsynnott 3y ago

While this article has some very _funny_ bits: > “All I can tell you,” the Tesla manager said, “is we’re not a 100-year-old company like GM and Ford. We haven’t worked all the bugs out yet.” Yes, it takes 100 years to figure out that water is corrosive; you only get told this when you’re invited into whatever the car equivalent of the Freemasons is. There’s nothing particularly _surprising_ here, except for Reuters actually quoting the word ‘fuck’. Reuters! Most US news sources of Reuters-level prestige/stuffiness primly mentions Elmo using ‘an obscenity’, rather than actually quoting him.

aga98mtl 3y ago

The article makes a bunch of grandiose claim, but it never pins down an actual failure rate. It never compares it to other manufacturer. Some cars will have defects if you make millions of them. The main claim seems to be that Tesla has higher defect rate, but it fails to make the case. Instead it veers into unrelated attacks on Musk.

seabird 3y ago

The steering knuckle failure shown in the article is insane. I've never heard of such a thing happening and have never heard of anybody who has heard of such a thing happening on a vehicle from what I will risk calling a "real manufacturer". I am always flabbergasted that there's people willing to just be in a Tesla while they're moving, let alone buy one, but then again, the general public has no real idea of how automotive safety really works. Crazy stuff.

qaq 3y ago

Would be good to have more data. Tesla reporting can be pretty skewed due to huge short positions on the stock and Musk being a total a@@ who decided to bet on fringe right.

cs702 3y ago

If this is true, shame on the company.

katbyte 3y ago
If? It is pretty hard to argue it’s not
amelius 3y ago
What about its management?

wnevets 3y ago

They're holding it wrong [1] [1] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/blog/2010/jun/25/iphone-reception-problems-solved https://www.theguardian.com/technology/blog/2010/jun/25/ipho...

helf 3y ago

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MattDaEskimo 3y ago

I am not a mechanic - only an enthusiast, but I know that a steering knuckle should never break the way it did in the photo unless there was some flaw in production.

bumby 3y ago
That break immediately made me think of the SpaceX strut failure due to supply chain mis-management. Quality checks were not in place, resulting in material that didn't have the structural strength specified.
belltaco 3y ago
Would be nice if Reuters actually compared such failures in other cars. But they seem to be hell bent on writing a hit piece with other Tesla unrelated Musk things thrown in rather than actually come up with a good journalistic piece, so I am assuming they found that other manufacturers are the same or worse, so didn't mention it.
- lawn 3y ago
  The point is that "such failures" are very rare or unheard of, and that Tesla lies about them.
deleted 3y ago
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Titan2189 3y ago

[flagged]

maxdo 3y ago

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enragedcacti 3y ago
> it’s just a story of one person with questionable proofs I don't think your interpretation of the article is accurate > Jain is one of tens of thousands of Tesla owners who have experienced premature failures of suspension or steering parts, according to a Reuters review of thousands of Tesla documents. > The documents, dated between 2016 and 2022, include repair reports from Tesla service centers globally; analyses and data reviews by engineers on parts with high failure rates; and memos sent to technicians globally, instructing them to tell consumers that broken parts on their cars were not faulty.
acdha 3y ago
Just because it’s not something Tesla PR wants to be public does mean it’s a conspiracy theory. This is a well-respected media outlet basing the story on thousands of Tesla’s own documents and interviews with former Tesla employees.
- belltaco 3y ago
  Why is there nothing about how it obtained the documents or how it verified the authenticity? Also why no comparison against other carmakers? A well respected media outlet would that. Instead it adds some weird things totally out of place. > Neither Musk nor any of his companies commented for these reports. But he recently lashed out at critics of his social-media company, X, formerly Twitter, which has seen its revenue and market value plummet since Musk bought the firm for $44 billion about a year ago. At the live Times event, he went after advertisers who boycotted X over Musk’s endorsement of an antisemitic post on the social-media site. “Go fuck yourself,” the billionaire told companies who pulled their business. How does the second sentence follow from the first? They don't seem related but the second sentence starts with "But he..". Terrible writing.
  - acdha 3y ago
    Look, I get that you have an emotional connection to this company’s image but it’s important to try to think rationally about it. Ask what’s more likely: Reuters not verifying the source of the documents and the people they interviewed so they could run a hit piece on a famously litigious man’s company, or that they did follow standard journalistic practices and it turns out that all of the things you’ve read online about quality control issues are actually representative?

maxdo 3y ago

[flagged]

onethought 3y ago

How often do other manufacturers do this? I recall from memory: VW had a loss of power problem they blamed on drivers. Toyota had throttle by wire problem they blamed on drivers. Not defending Tesla here, this is all shit. But to me this is more about some kind of safety and repairs regulation, than the usual: Elon is bad.

MBCook 3y ago
To me the issue isn’t that it happened… it’s that it happened over and over and over. It seems more like a pattern/SOP than a single mistake they’re embarrassed about.
bumby 3y ago
It feels a bit more damning when they share a "talking points" memo to service centers to direct them how to characterize the failures. Add to that, they had internal engineers saying the actual failure rate is much higher than what was being reported, and it seems like it's venturing into fraud territory.
- onethought 3y ago
  You mean how VW directed their dealerships to deny there was a power problem while also directing their engineering team to come up with a fix? Sounds pretty similar to me.
  - bumby 3y ago
    Yes. So I’m assuming from your statement, you would agree that Tesla c/should be fine billions of dollars for fraud, just as VW was? To be clear, I’m not saying Tesla is unique in this regard. I’m saying there are degrees ranging from “good faith engineering mistakes that are handled appropriately” and “fraud”. The Tesla memos and whistleblower claims seem to tilt it closer to the latter.
    - onethought 3y ago
      Agree. But further than fines. They should fix their certification program to include sampling. Not just testing a purpose made testing vehicle.

autoexec 3y ago

Even if I liked the cars, and they aren't for me, I don't think I'd get a Tesla just because the company seems so terrible.

fgsfds028374 3y ago

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deergomoo 3y ago

There was a time when a Tesla was something I aspired to own one day, but now I don't think I'd get one even if I had a free pick of any car in that price range. From what I understand they still lead the EV space in several metrics, but other manufacturers have done a lot of catching up in the last few years. Add that to greater reliability and build quality, and inclusion of physical controls (anyone who thinks replacing the indicator/turn signal stalk with capacitive buttons is sensible has clearly never driven in the UK—my 15 minute drive into the office crosses 11 roundabouts). Plus I've developed such a strong personal distaste for Musk over the last few years that it's hard to want to give him money, however indirectly.

pclmulqdq 3y ago
As it turns out, producing a quality product takes a long time. Tesla got to market early by not producing a quality product, but I assumed they would raise the quality bar after they got mass adoption.
- tmpz22 3y ago
  > Tesla got to market early by not producing a quality product I'd argue Tesla min/maxed aspects of their product that gave them a initial strong lead in product space. Quintessentially performance/distance/charger-availability, but also some aspects of their tech really stood out like the touchscreen performance and mobile integration (relative to what other cars had in the mid 2010s. IMO that initial lead has diminished. Other brands are catching up and do better in terms of some aspects of quality control and now reputation. If this trend continues I think we could see Tesla losing in most metrics, although we still probably have a good chunk of time until that happens. If I had to buy an electric car today Tesla would still be one of the first cars I researched. Maybe Tesla would win. But in a few years I wholly expect another brand would win out.
- FireBeyond 3y ago
  ... and by espousing that they knew better than legacy auto how to build the lines, and ignoring a century of learned study.
- 3y ago

MBCook 3y ago

So is Elon enough of a majority shareholder that he’s untouchable? Or is the company set up like FB where no matter what he controls a majority of voting shares? Of is it just that no investors were willing to touch it because it just kept making more money do oh well? So much stuff keeps coming out I’m left wondering why there isn’t a bigger push for a management change.

pclmulqdq 3y ago
Elon Musk packs his boards with cronies. He has a relatively small minority of the shares and the votes in both Tesla and SpaceX.
- DoesntMatter22 3y ago
  He's the largest shareholder in both so idk what you mean by "small minority"
  - mcguire 3y ago
    The largest single shareholder. Musk owns 12.9% of Tesla; the second largest is Vanguard, with 6.9%, followed by various other investment fund companies.
    - DoesntMatter22 3y ago
      A shareholder is singular. What else can a person or company be but a single shareholder? He by far and away owns the most stock of any person or organization.
      - MBCook 3y ago
        If the largest shareholder had 50.0001% of the shares, they’d be untouchable. No matter what, as long as they can vote they can get their way even if every other shareholder wants ‘em out. If the largest shareholder (let’s say Frank) has 5% of the shares it’s possible to overrule them. You just need enough people to band with you that your collective shares outnumber the collective shares of Frank and others who will vote with him. I should also note that this only matters for voting shares. I can own 97% of Microsoft shares and if I don’t have any voting shares I get as much direct say as my dog.

mcguire 3y ago

Tom and Ray, the Car Talk guys: "There are three kinds of problems with cars. First, things that don't really matter, like the radio. Second, things that will leave you stranded, like the engine. And third, things that will leave you dead, like the brakes and suspension."

advael 3y ago

I continue to have zero interest in any kind of "smart car" and consider all of this downstream to Tesla's leaning heavily into that business model. If they already have invested in building you a product that assumes the company is making the decisions on the road, defies user expectation constantly, and by and large extorts you for features already present in the vehicle at every turn, why wouldn't they also be running a monopolized in-house repair scam like apple? If they already have a legal team set up to blame end-users for failures of its hideously user-hostile autopilot features, why wouldn't they use the same tactics to also blame end-users for any and all mechanical failures? I will continue to avoid paying egregious sums of money to be a guinea pig for the attempted enshittification of moving through the physical world, thanks