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McDonald's ice cream machine hackers say they found 'smoking gun'
- mschuster91 3y agoArchive link: https://archive.ph/fouWj https://archive.ph/fouWj
- abfan1127 3y agoI still don't understand why McDonald's is accepting a 10-20% "broken" status as remotely acceptable. Especially when its clear its solvable.
- meepmorp 3y agoIt's not really McDonalds the corporation's problem - they get paid all the same, probably with some definitely-not-kickbacks from the manufacturer.
- krger 3y ago> they get paid all the same I haven't looked at a McDonalds franchise contract, but every QSR franchise contract I've seen requires the franchisee to pay the brand a percentage of each location's gross sales. Broken ice cream machine = less gross sales. Less gross sales = less money going to the brand. It's also not great for customer satisfaction.
- atlasunshrugged 3y agoYes, I looked into franchising many years ago and that was my recollection as well -- often groups also sell you the inputs/ingredients and force you to purchase through them to "maintain quality/consistency" which would seem to be another reason why McD would want more volume/sales.
- krger 3y ago> often groups also sell you the inputs/ingredients and force you to purchase through them to "maintain quality/consistency" QSR franchisees are famous for cutting every corner they can get away with (as well as cutting even more corners until they get caught by the brand or local health/labor inspectors), so maintaining quality and consistency is a very real concern for these brands.
- atlasunshrugged 3y agoYes, that's fair, but it's also a great way to guarantee recurring revenue for a franchisor whose franchisees are obligated to purchase from them
- dylan604 3y agoI thought we were talking about an ice cream machine and not an ink jet printer.
- atlasunshrugged 3y agoAll the same to the MBAs at these companies looking to squeeze the last penny out of everything
- kube-system 3y agoInkjet printers merely have DRM. Franchises have way more power; they have legally binding contracts.
- mike_d 3y agoI believe when this first came out it was highlighted that a lot of employees moved back and forth between McD and Taylor. The implication that residual stock or friends across town could influence the situation.
- krger 3y ago>The implication that residual stock or friends across town could influence the situation. Yes, that could explain why McDonalds execs would try to discourage franchisees from using Kytch. It doesn't, however, explain why McDonalds execs seem not to have a problem with 20% of their locations not being able to sell a product that people apparently like enough to complain when they can't get it, which is what the top-level comment was talking about.
- chankstein38 3y agoAren't most of their ice cream products like <$5? I recall the cones are only like $1. My guess would be that, if there is some kind of arrangement between McD's and Taylor, it's probably way more profitable than the losses they'd see from 10-13% of their ice cream machines being down per month.
- almostnormal 3y agoIsn't the cost of the ingredients some $0.2 (I have no idea, just estimating by the taste), so that machine is printing money when working? It's surprising they cannot build a machine that does not break that easily.
- kube-system 3y agoI wouldn't be so sure. Milk, cream, and sugar are relatively expensive ingredients, and labor is very expensive.
- bluGill 3y agoMilk/cream is not cheap. It takes a lot of energy to freeze that mixture as well. Most people don't try to measure this, but the ice in your soda probably costs more than the rest of the sugar water (in bulk/wholesale as restaurants buy soda, if you pay retails prices things are different)
- 0xy 3y agoWould McDonalds Corp rather sell let's say 1,000 ice creams for $1,000 total at a 2% cut ($20) or an ice cream machine repair (maybe $1,000)? They're fleecing the franchisees via repairs.
- tuukkah 3y agoThank you for pointing this out! This kind of a simple revenue calculation can be highly insightful.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- Aloisius 3y agoWhy would McDonald's corporate be getting paid for machine repairs? The repairs are handled by local distributors of Taylor machines. Taylor itself makes money on replacement parts and machines. There haven't been any allegations of kickbacks to McDonald's corporate, so I don't get it.
- JoeAltmaier 3y agoApparently if the ice cream machine is broken, the franchise can move more product in other higher-margin categories. So no, it doesn't mean less gross sales.
- badwolf 3y agoYep. me: "I'll have a milkshake please" McD: "ice cream machine's broke" me: "ugh. Ok, I'll just have a coke"
- Kluggy 3y ago[dead]
- hoten 3y agoJohnny Harris (journalist) covered this story: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrDEtSlqJC4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrDEtSlqJC4
- xvector 3y agoThis might be one of the worst videos I've ever seen. 30 minutes of video for about two paragraphs worth of content. Mind-bogglingly poor information density, it's like the video was deliberately stretched to 30 minutes for no reason other than the fact that he could. Terrible journalism. ChatGPT summary: > The video investigates why McDonald's ice cream machines are frequently broken. It reveals that the machines undergo a complex, four-hour cleaning cycle, often misinterpreted as a breakdown. Franchise owners are contractually obliged to use a specific machine model (C602) made by Taylor, which has a high failure rate. The malfunctioning machines, with cryptic error messages and user-unfriendly interfaces, necessitate expensive repairs by Taylor-authorized technicians. An entrepreneur developed an alternative device providing better feedback and reducing breakdowns, but McDonald's allegedly discouraged its use, favoring a less effective solution from a company related to Taylor. Every day GPT-4 becomes more useful for wading through the swath of bullshit.
- Lich 3y agoYeah, not a fan of Harris' videos at all. He defines journalism...differently. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dum0bqWfiGw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dum0bqWfiGw
- hef19898 3y agoHe was good with "Borders", after that no so much. His "documentation" on the Soccer World Cup worker was, well, a repetition of what other journalista already reported on, with less detail and depth but sold in way to make it look like he was the oloy one uncovering it and risking his life doing so. So no, not a fan neither.
- hoten 3y agoSome audiences prefer a bit longer winded content with some entertainment value. Myself, I wouldn't have clicked on an article that discusses this story even if it would have taken me half the time to read it than watch it.
- smegger001 3y agobecause McDonalds corporate profits off of the deal with the manufacturer/servicer who in turn profits off of the McDonalds franchisees. The franchisees aren't given a choice of what machine and servicers they use as corporate dictates what model of machine they are allowed to use and who is allowed to perform service upon it. So Mcdonalds corporate doesn't care because they aren't the ones loosing money on sales or service fees as they don't run many of the restaurants fore them its a profit center.
- gruez 3y ago>because McDonalds corporate profits off of the deal with the manufacturer/servicer who in turn profits off of the McDonalds franchisees Is there more on this? If they can dig up CEO's emails surely they can dig up the financial arrangements between them and mcdonalds?
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- pphysch 3y agoGiven all of the parties' (hacked) accounting books, how do you prove that "Foobar service/fee" is actually "illegal kickback"?
- gruez 3y ago1. If we're to take the plaintiffs at face value (ie. the email in question is really the "smoking gun", didn't bother hiding it, and just handed it over in discovery), then surely the defendants are too incompetent to hide the kickbacks? 2. That attitude is dangerously close to "unfalsifiable claim" territory. There's no evidence for your conspiracy? Well duh, it's all-powerful conspirators that we're dealing with. Of course there's going to be no evidence because they hid it all!
- pphysch 3y agoI'm just saying it's very easy to hide this sort of thing. A brief chat at the country club, totally off the record, is all they need to finalize a backroom deal. The prosecution even argued that the defendents were using Mafia-like language, according to TFA.
- uoaei 3y agoBecause it's never a moral question, it's always a financial one. And the finances shake out quasi-optimally for McDonald's the corporation.
- detourdog 3y agoMy guess is that they weren't measuring ice cream machine uptime. They were using some other metric. The franchisee is really the one loses sales to a down machine. Corporate McDs is satisfied with the revenue share and doesn't realize more ice cream could be sold.
- local_crmdgeon 3y agoBecause they don’t give a shit, just like every incumbent. It’s why institutions so quickly fall - no one gives a shit. Five Guys and Shake Shack do, and they’re eating McDonald’s lunch
- huytersd 3y agoWhat a joke. McDonald’s may not have the healthiest food but as a corporation they have things locked down. I’ve never seen a place run better at scale than McDonald’s inspite of the bottom of the barrel staff that’s available to them.
- local_crmdgeon 3y agoThe individual McDonald’s are run by franchisees. I’m talking about how corporate has really dropped the ball.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- gruez 3y ago>“Not sure if there is anything we can do to slow up the franchise community on the other solution,” FitzGerald wrote on October 17, 2020. “Not sure what communication from either McD or Midd can or will go out.” That's the extent of the "smoking gun" that's in the article. Needless to say, I'm far from convinced it's a "smoking gun" given how short and probably cherry picked it is. Is there a full copy of the email somewhere? All the cases on courtlistener don't show any relevant documents.
- VyseofArcadia 3y agoYou have to admit, there is a very "will no one rid me of this meddlesome priest?" ring to it.
- mike_d 3y agoThat is a really big deal coming from an executive. Leadership 101 is you never mention a business change or action in the same communication as a situation with a competitor. This guy clearly didn't do his yearly antitrust training.
- gruez 3y ago>Leadership 101 is you never mention a business change or action in the same communication as a situation with a competitor Source?
- mike_d 3y agoYou can reach out to your HR department at work if you are interested in taking leadership specific anti-trust training. Most larger companies have a leadership training track where this type of course is included.
- skissane 3y ago> Leadership 101 is you never mention a business change or action in the same communication as a situation with a competitor. This guy clearly didn't do his yearly antitrust training It depends on the nature of the change/action though? “We are falling behind competitor X in features… that’s why I’m increasing the R&D budget by 10%, and tasking the head of engineering to close the gap” - where is the antitrust issue in that?
- jconley 3y agoIt seems to me that this is the risk you take when you create an unofficial add-on to any product. I've helped reverse engineer vehicle ECU's to reprogram the fuel injection, turbo pressure, and spark timing systems. But, we wouldn't have expected the manufacturer to do anything except officially discourage the use of the aftermarket tools. That is the name of the game with unofficial add-ons with access to sensitive control systems. Disclaimer: I did work for a Middleby subsidiary at the time but I don't know anything that isn't public about this situation. We were all very separate companies.
- toxik 3y agoI somehow feel it is a very different thing with ice cream machines versus automotive applications.
- gruez 3y agoYes, you can probably harm an order of magnitude more people with a contaminated ice cream machine than with a defective vehicle.
- henriquez 3y ago[flagged]
- gruez 3y agoMcdonalds ice cream machines being broken all the time notwithstanding, how much ice cream cones do you think a mcdonalds will sell on a summer day?
- Der_Einzige 3y ago[flagged]
- blacksmith_tb 3y agoIt doesn't sound like the Kytch device was claimed to cause any kind of contamination, it just exposed diagnostic data? To me hacked ECUs seem much more likely to pose a danger to human health - but that's because bad drivers kill and injure a lot of people (maybe people who have done Level 3 tunes are all excellent and responsible drivers... maybe...)
- Dem_Boys 3y agoI worked at McDonalds for 4 years. 2 as a kitchen worker. 2 as a shift manager. I've personally cleaned these machines too many times to count. I've never heard one person tell "the truth" about this (at least in my personal experience). Our ice cream machine was often down too but not because it was broken. Because we were short staffed and making ice cream is a HUGE time sink for employees. The manager would just tell the employees "no more ice cream" and they all knew what's up. They'd be very happy that they could focus on food and McCafe and thus not disappoint customers too much due to slow service. Folks don't quite understand that McDonald's is consistently short staffed and the workers are often doing the work of 2-3 people just to try to get you fast and hot food.
- robertlagrant 3y ago> the workers are often doing the work of 2-3 people How is that possible?
- alphameese 3y agoWhen I worked there during our lunch rush, we would have a person dedicated to every task, fries, coffee, orders, bagging. When it came to the dinner rush, we would have half the staff or less then our lunch rush. So in a sense it is the work of 2 to 3 people. Also during overnight we would have only one person in the front, and one in the back. Once Uber eats came on the scene our workload increased 3x or more, but no extra staff was added! :-) Edit: that’s not even mentioning when we would be short staffed, due to people not showing up / calling in, which happened every other day it felt like, and the shift wouldn’t be replaced.
- toyg 3y agoI like antitrust cases like the next man, but this is weak sauce. They built a sharecropping add-on that was always going to live or die at the whim of Taysol and McDonald's, it was never going to last. Whether Taysol put it in writing or not, it doesn't really matter. I guess their lawyers are having fun billing their hours, though.
- projektfu 3y agoIt's funny to me that in the US, McDonald's has ice cream but doesn't really try to sell it, but in Brazil it seems to be their #1 product, and there are McDonald's stores that do not have burgers, just ice cream.
- pjot 3y agoIn the Philippines McDonald’s sells spaghetti!
- neilv 3y agoGoing only from the article, I'm skeptical of part of the argument: > It also countered in the complaint any claim that a Kytch device's remote connection to an ice cream machine could result in the machine turning on while a person's hand was inside—in fact, Taylor's own manual advises unplugging the machine before servicing it, and removing the door of the machine to access its rotating barrels automatically disables its motor. I suspect someone who didn't design real-world systems might read this and think "Of course it's not a safety problem, because the machine is unplugged, Silly," or "No one can get hurt by the rotating barrels, because the motor is disabled when something-something." Meanwhile, people who have designed systems are assuming, "Of course, sometimes the machine won't be unplugged when being maintained. That's one of the things we have to assume will go wrong. And text in a user manual doesn't seem a credible component of safety design here, implying always-perfect operator behavior of teenage fast food workers who are stressed and fatigued." A lot of engineers' questions come to mind (e.g., about that interlock and other mechanisms and safety scenarios, and how the third-party add-on integrates), but this isn't my specialty, and I'm wondering what that UL certification covered. I can totally believe that many companies will do all sorts of underhanded things, including colluding to smear a competitor, but I'd want a credible assessment by expert specialist engineers.
- Waterluvian 3y agoIs this purely an American thing or am I just unusually lucky? I’ve never ever had a case where the machine was down in Canada.
- ivanjermakov 3y agoObligatory "The REAL Reason McDonalds Ice Cream Machines Are Always Broken": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrDEtSlqJC4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrDEtSlqJC4
- throwaway2990 3y agoIs broken ice cream machine an American thing because in 30 years I’ve never been into a McDonald’s in Asia/Pacific that had a broken machine. It’s always working.
- senden9 3y agoIt seams so. I life in Europe and never had this problem in a McDonald's restaurant.
- ac130kz 3y agoMcD's is making more money on their "authorized" repairs (those companies are also owned by them). That's it.
- jeffrallen 3y agoMonopolists gonna monopolize.