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Apple partly halts Beeper's iMessage app again, suggesting a long fight ahead

297 points by CharlesW 3y ago

dcdevito 3y ago
[dead]
mngdtt 3y ago
[flagged]
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - teekert 3y ago
    [flagged]
- freerobby 3y ago
  What's this in reference to? WhatsApp, Signal, and many others are in the App Store.
  - avarun 3y ago
    ...He's clearly talking about third-party replacements for the default messaging app, ie. apps that are allowed to interface with the SMS/MMS protocol implemented by your phone. Android has had this capability forever. Not sure why everybody responding to him is being obtuse. If you don't understand something, maybe take a minute to think about it instead of assuming the person you're talking to is an idiot. (Not you, yours is the sanest response by far)
- nerdjon 3y ago
  Um… sees Snapchat and Discord on my iPhone I guess… I just jailbroke my iPhone and installed these? That’s news to me.
- i5-2520M 3y ago
  Yeah if US iPhone users bothered to download any of them to message their friends better then it would matter. Unfortunately however...
nocoiner 3y ago
Beeper CEO, from the article: "If there's enough pressure on Apple, they will have to quit messing with us." "Us," he clarified, meant both Apple's customers using iMessage and Android users trying to chat securely with iPhone friends. "That's who they're penalizing," he wrote. "It's not a Beeper vs. Apple fight, it's Apple versus customers." Not really sure how this is anti-customer. Apple customers have ample access to iMessage, after all. And as has been noted many, many times, there are many means of accessing secure cross-platform messaging.
- echelon 3y ago
  > Apple customers have ample access to iMessage, after all. It's not really fair that Apple gets to build snares around owning the most successful and important platform in modern civilization. This isn't an automobile where there are 50 alternative manufacturers, this is the "everything" device that handles your bills, employment, connections to loved ones, etc. And there's only one other choice of vendor in the United States. Apple shouldn't be able to exercise their position (nor should Google) to own every aspect of human life built atop this connection. Mobile internet shouldn't belong to anyone. It shouldn't be taxed by anyone. And yet here we are. One of the first rulings from antitrust I would expect is non-proprietary messaging protocols.
  - qeternity 3y ago
    > This isn't an automobile where there are 50 alternative manufacturers No, it’s exactly this. There are a ton of manufacturers all providing this product. It just so happens that Apple’s is one of the best, if not the best. And as has been mentioned, there are tons of secure messaging alternatives. It’s just that people prefer iMessage. This is not illegal or anticompetitive. Imagine if someone claimed they should be let into an airport lounge of an airline they aren’t flying on, simply because their friends are there.
    - smallerfish 3y ago
      [flagged]
    - 3y ago
wolpoli 3y ago
MSN Messenger played a similar cat-and-mouse game with AOL Instant Messenger long time ago. Unlike MSN Messenger which used this publicity to grow their own market share, I am not sure what's the end game for Beeper.
- paulddraper 3y ago
  The end game for Beeper is a significant presence on the most popular OS on the planet. I don't think their interested in replacing iMessage directly, if that's your question.
  - deleted 3y ago
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- notnmeyer 3y ago
  attention? this has brought beeper _tremendous_ publicity. i think it’s naive to think that beeper didn’t expect this—its win-win for them no matter what. they could and so they did.
  - madeofpalk 3y ago
    Win-win no matter what? An extremely likely scenario is that Beeper becomes completely defunct, and Apple has no legal or regulartory pressure applied to them. What's the win for Beeper here?
    - commoner 3y ago
      Beeper (Beeper Cloud) is a cross-platform stack that supports multiple messaging systems (not just iMessage) and has been in development for years.[1] This is different from Beeper Mini, which is a recently launched Android-exclusive app that only supports SMS/MMS and iMessage.[2] The release of Beeper Mini certainly gained publicity for Beeper Cloud, and I don't see why Beeper Mini would cause Beeper Cloud to go defunct. [1] Beeper Cloud: https://www.beeper.com/cloud https://www.beeper.com/cloud [2] Beeper Mini: https://blog.beeper.com/p/introducing-beeper-mini-get-blue https://blog.beeper.com/p/introducing-beeper-mini-get-blue
thot_experiment 3y ago
Is it common for people to use texts in 2023 in your social circle? I think I've been texted once this year. I mean obviously people care about this to some extent otherwise this app wouldn't exist but in my experience when I meet someone they'll give me insta or discord, unless they're a tryhard and then it's always signal (blegh). EDIT: not sure i'm being downvoted? i'm genuinely curious because i never use SMS or iMessage myself and haven't for some years so this seemed very niche to me, even randos i meet out in the world all seem to just chat on discord and insta (I'm in the bay area but most of my friends are not tech bros)
- pb7 3y ago
  Yes, it's the only way we communicate. Instagram for strangers, iMessage for friends.
- that_guy_iain 3y ago
  You‘ve just given multiple different text messengers that you use to text message when asking if people still text. Yes, people do. Non technically minded are very big users for the default text messaging apps.
  - thot_experiment 3y ago
    text message means SMS in my dialect, sorry
    - madeofpalk 3y ago
      iMessage is not SMS.
      - thot_experiment 3y ago
        ok sorry mr pedant, text message to me means the default tied to your number way of communicating on your phone
        3y ago
NettleBurr 3y ago
>Apple on Wednesday appeared to have blocked what Beeper described as "~5% of Beeper Mini users" from accessing iMessages >Apple previously issued a (somewhat uncommon) statement about Beeper's iMessage access, stating that it "took steps to protect our users by blocking techniques that exploit fake credentials in order to gain access to iMessage." Citing privacy, security, and spam concerns, Apple stated it would "continue to make updates in the future" to protect users. Migicovsky previously denied to Ars that Beeper used "fake credentials" or in any way made iMessages less secure. Not commenting about the ethics of all this, just wondering why technically Apple can only block ~5% of Beeper Mini users instead of all of them? Could this potentially be tied to the use of an email id as the iMessage handle?
- user_7832 3y ago
  > Not commenting about the ethics of all this, just wondering why technically Apple can only block ~5% of Beeper Mini users instead of all of them? Could this potentially be tied to the use of an email id as the iMessage handle? I wonder if it might also have anything to do with govt action. I believe a US elected rep recently tweeted in favour of Beeper. Apple cares much more about PR than they'll admit, and server costs for them are negligible.
  - nozzlegear 3y ago
    The rep was Senator Elizabeth Warren, who was once pretty popular during the Obama years when she helped create the CFPB. She sadly doesn’t hold much sway (e: in the senate) anymore.
- I_Am_Nous 3y ago
  Seems like a chess move. Apple blocks a small percentage of users instead of all of them, which casts uncertainty on using Beeper Mini at all. It also allows them to A/B test various methods of blocking or honeypotting Beeper Mini logins without giving away any big secrets. From Beeper's perspective, they now have to figure out why only those logins were blocked and if they need to patch something or not. Apple could be wasting their time and blocked random users out of spite. Time will tell.
shreyansh_k 3y ago
This seems to be Beeper's insincere attempt at dressing up their grievances to appear as if they were in advantage of the [Apple's] customer. Apple has made it clear that they won't bring iMessage to Android. People who choose to invest in Android phones know they won't get access to iMessage. It seems a bit entitled behaviour for someone to feel like Apple should be forced to bring iMessage to Android for any reason besides Apple's own choice, and that they know better than Apple on how to run Apple's business.
- user_7832 3y ago
  > It seems a bit entitled behaviour for someone to feel like Apple should be forced to bring iMessage to Android for any reason besides Apple's own choice, and that they know better than Apple on how to run Apple's business. It is simultaneously possible for it to appear entitled, while also recognizing how extremely restrictive, anti consumer and anti competition Apple is. And in this fight of a trillion dollar company vs something a little bigger than a startup, it's fun to root for the small guys who are hitting back at that restrictedness, sometimes even successfully.
  - shreyansh_k 3y ago
    It can be agreeable to an extend that Apple seem like an extremely restrictive, anti consumer and anti competition. But, the other side (Android), which has been positioned open, pro-consumer and pro-competition doesn't seem to be true to its roots or any better anyways. Android is mostly dominated by Samsung and Samsung is heavily pushing their own ecosystem of apps, just like every other company, and most brands want to lock in their users too. It's a sad state of affairs.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - rezonant 3y ago
      You can push your own ecosystem of apps and still allow your customers to replace them. I'm not aware of a Samsung app or service that cannot be swapped out. And I struggle even more to find a Samsung component that is designed to create network effect lock in like iMessage is. And Apple Messages can't be swapped out, it is the only texting app on iOS. You can install Signal or Whatsapp or whatever, but you can only talk to other people who have those apps installed. You cannot use them to talk to any phone number like a texting app can.
cdme 3y ago
I miss the days when chat wasn't fragmented across apps and platforms or could at least be unified in apps like Adium. Having to have a different app installed for myriad different contacts is, at best, irritating.
- lapinot 3y ago
  Couldn't you have said "compartmentalized", or "dominated by hostile silos" or anything else that doesn't involve comparison of the state of online chatting with wars that have killed humans? I agree things were nice with adium.
  - jrflowers 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - Youden 3y ago
      I think that's essentially their point. The root of the term "balkanized" is war and the person they're replying to could have used a word with less violent connotations like the ones listed.
    - Rebelgecko 3y ago
      FYI "TW" is outdated language and shouldn't be used any more. The phrase can elicit stress about what's to follow, and the t-word is associated with violent imagery.
      - jrflowers 3y ago
        Imagery is problematic, it is an aggression to put a picture into another person’s head without informed consent
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
    - 3y ago
jiggawatts 3y ago
The fundamental issue is that there are no readily-available iPhone emulators that can send iMessages, and this is a good thing that people pay for. The benefit of the Apple walled garden is that the spammers are kept out, because they can't get fifty SIM cards, plug them in to a "SIM box"[1], and start sending hundreds of thousands of scam messages via iMessage. This is easy in an uncontrolled, open-source ecosystem, but is prohibitively difficult in Apple's ecosystem where you need a physical device with a unique cryptographic ID that can be locked out by a central authority. Yes, it's an "exclusive club" where members pay to keep the general public out. The general public doesn't like this, but that is what it is. Inherently, allowing "anyone" in would void the exclusivity and invite an unrelenting flood of spam. At best, Apple could open up iMessage to other vendors that have similarly well-controlled devices with good hardware cryptographic attestation, but there aren't any. [1] https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/sydney-man-charged-with-sending-17-million-scam-texts-20231213-p5er5a.html https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/sydney-man-charged-with-...
- ewoodrich 3y ago
  Isn't there? You can use iMessage via the Messages app on a Mac and tools like BlueBubbles already have hooks to send and receive iMessages using the official client.
  - jiggawatts 3y ago
    Macs are an Apple product and have the very nearly the same hardware protections.
    - sudosysgen 3y ago
      How so? You can easily automate sending messages on a Mac, and you can easily change the IDs on Intel based Macs. Ultimately, the only solid line of defence is banning your phone number and Apple ID.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
bastard_op 3y ago
Because of course they did, they like that children make fun of their peers that have a green message vs. a blue, and that's exactly what they want. They're like "ew, are you poor and can't afford a $1200 iphone?" It is now a petty, but prevalent status symbol of being better than others, namely perceived "poor" or otherwise lesser android users.
- dann0 3y ago
  Did you just unironically use a “would someone think of the children?” argument? Of all the interesting points in this situation, this is not even close to being relevant
  - sbuk 3y ago
    The whole green-bubble debate is essentially an appeal to emotion...
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  Brand new iPhones have been available for $430 on apple.com for many years now. And most young minimum wage employees with very little money and no "status" also use iPhones. It is not a signal of poor/status, it is a signal of weird/not weird, without commenting on the validity of that, of course. For example, people do not opt out of dating Android users because they think Android users are poor, they opt out because they think Android users have a higher likelihood of being sufficiently "weird" such that they do not want to engage.
  - quartesixte 3y ago
    That’s also entirely USA centric and a byproduct of everyone sticking to SMS-phone number systems to chat. It drives me nuts. WhatsApp. WeChat. Line. Kakao. Facebook Messenger. Most of the world has switched to these dedicated apps. Only glimmer of hope is that gen-z/gen-alpha is really into Discord (at least all the ones I know). Might finally bring down the iMessage group chats.
    - 3y ago
dann0 3y ago
[flagged]
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >t’s really interesting that so many people are defending a corporation stealing from another company Boo-hoo, let me play you the world's smallest violin for Apple's "suffering". Apple is the richest company in the world, it has more money than God, they can fend for themselves just fine, why should anyone shed a tear that someone is stealing from them? People are defending others stealing from Apple because Apple has a history of stealing from other companies and developers as well, so it's just karma. Though you'll have to enlighten me what exactly it is they are stealing from Apple since Apple doesn't charge money for iMessage for there to be any theft or loss of revenue for them. Unless your definition of theft is "YOU WOULDN'T DOWNLOAD A CAR?!"
  - the_gastropod 3y ago
    > Though you'll have to enlighten me what exactly it is they are stealing from Apple since Apple doesn't charge money for iMessage for there to be any theft or loss of revenue for them. Unless your definition of theft is "YOU WOULDN'T DOWNLOAD A CAR?!" Apple doesn't charge money for iMessage in much the same way Microsoft doesn't charge money for MS Paint. iMessage is included as part of an Apple hardware purchase. Running a messaging system that likely handles billions of messages—with photo and video attachments—every day is not free. Apple's device sales subsidize the cost Apple pays to run this system. Beeper using this system by exploiting a technical loophole is theft in a much more direct way than pirating a copy of an audio track is, I think.
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      >Apple's device sales subsidize the cost Apple pays to run this system. And Beeper bought and paid for the Apple devices which they use to route iMessage. What's the problem? Looks fair and square to me. Apple is legally allowed to try to block me for breaking their ToS, but legally, I bought the device, I can do whatever I want with it since it's my property now, including trying to route iMessage on my device and my account if hat's what I want. It's still not stealing because I paid Apple for the HW, and stealing means breaking the law, not breaking Apple's ToS which are silly and worthless anyway.
kylehotchkiss 3y ago
Amazing this same story keeps getting reposted every other day. Slow news week? Great time to announce something you've been working on HNers!
- chrisoverzero 3y ago
  > Amazing this same story keeps getting reposted every other day. It keeps happening.
JoblessWonder 3y ago
As I mentioned in the previous discussion[1], users are going to have to put up with the system going down... and I just don't see that happening. From the article: "It was losing messages during the outage and never being entirely certain they had been sent or received. There was a gathering on Saturday, and she had to double-check with a couple people about the details after showing up inadvertently early at the wrong spot." https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38533775 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38533775
- tshirthoodie 3y ago
  Apple's iMessage implementation loses messages all the time. It happens about once every month between my girlfriend and I. I have also had iMesages be sent to the wrong recipient. In one ongoing case, my aunt and uncle frequently receive each other's iMessages, suggesting it's related to their group carrier plan but it's hard to say. The extended family all knows to use SMS instead, which reliably goes to the intended recipient. They are both retired and always together so they haven't reached the point of getting a new plan.
  - rgbrenner 3y ago
    iMessage is routed through apple's servers over TCP. So this is like saying: sometimes I go to google.com but it randomly loads bing.com... must be related to my group carrier plan What data made you make that association? Seems unlikely. If that happens, then apple would have to be routing messages incorrectly, but that would be a massive bug/security issue... especially considering how E2EE works.
    - tshirthoodie 3y ago
      Yeah, who knows? I am only brainstorming. Ever since I discovered the abysmal state of Apple's customer service after having my iphone stolen last year, I feel confident we will never know.
      - frumper 3y ago
josephcsible 3y ago
When Ma Bell didn't let people use third-party phones with their service, the government made them change their ways. Why is the government letting Apple get away with the equivalent?
- stouset 3y ago
  Ma Bell had a monopoly. This is one messaging app on one brand of phone. Nothing stops you from using another phone, or multiple or other messaging apps. And messaging apps aren’t restricted by a “default” in quite the same way a web browser is. I have friends on WhatsApp and Signal and Instagram and I message them all without any appreciable difference in effort.
  - josephcsible 3y ago
    As long as iMessage doesn't support federation, Apple has a monopoly on it too. If not, then Ma Bell wouldn't have had a monopoly either, since you could say mailing letters was a competitor to telephones.
    - madeofpalk 3y ago
      That's nonsensical. Reddit has a monopoly on Reddit - of course it does. Any service online is under no obligation to allow for widespread interpoperation - that would be madness.
      - hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
        > Any service online is under no obligation to allow for widespread interpoperation - that would be madness. Lol, "madness". The Digital Services Act in the EU would like a word.
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
        nicce 3y ago
MR4D 3y ago
I don't understand how this is not theft of service, or at least unlawful access. If I am reading the articles on Beeper correctly, they've applied a pretty brilliant hack to gain access to the iMessage network without an Apple ID. That last part seems key (pardon the pun). Can someone explain this to me? I feel like this technical issue is really in the weeds, so I'm sure there are multiple nuances I'm missing...
- MR4D 3y ago
  Ok, people clearly aren't reading the first few words (nor the last line) of my post: "I don't understand..." "Can someone explain this to me? "
  - wrboyce 3y ago
    I think the problem is that you do understand and have explained it perfectly, but some people can’t handle the truth. These threads have brought out some ludicrous opinions (as anything Apple centric tends to on HN).
    - MR4D 3y ago
      Well, I actually don’t think I do. For instance, wouldn’t this have to be reported as an unauthorized intrusion (getting access to a user’s messages without using their ID) ? Also, nothing I’ve read has any criminal aspect to it (ignoring DMCA stuff). Given all the issues with SMS security and spoofing, you’d think this would be an issue, but nobody has brought it up. Seems unlikely that given all the coverage that I’d be the first and only person to notice that, which is why I don’t think I truly understand it.
- GeekyBear 3y ago
  It certainly seems like it would have to be a violation of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. If you recall, Aaron Swartz was hounded to death using that law after accessing JSTOR's servers without permission. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Swartz https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Swartz
api 3y ago
A lot of people don’t understand the absolutely insane (and totally stupid) power of “blue text” in social settings, especially among teens. “Green text” is social suicide, largely because a lot of reactions and emojis and stuff don’t work. It’s also a status symbol… even though high end Android phones cost about what higher end iPhones cost and refurb iPhones are cheap. The iMessage platform is probably the strongest lock in on iPhones. Break that and the phone market gets competitive again.
- sroussey 3y ago
  So the biggest impediment to competition is the status of a blue text box in one messaging app? If so, create your “status symbol” message app and you can go buy apple or google after, lol
- burlesona 3y ago
  This is a weird take when iMessage isn’t even popular outside the US, and Android has 70% global market share. The market is very competitive.
- theshackleford 3y ago
  > A lot of people don’t understand the absolutely insane (and totally stupid) power of “blue text” in social settings In America. The rest of the world doesnt give a shit. > Break that and the phone market gets competitive again. See above.
  - paxys 3y ago
    Most of America also doesn't give a shit. This whole blue/green bubble thing is a story only among nerds and some tech elitists.
    - tenacious_tuna 3y ago
      I was at a company holiday setting with some coworkers and one of them mentioned how the green/blue text thing genuinely factored into their dating decisions, on the basis that texting with someone without iMessage made the conversation clunkier and harder to build rapport. So... I don't think this is just among nerds and tech elitists.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
bilsbie 3y ago
Semi related. I got a smart watch with a phone number but I can’t text from it. Can this product or a different product let me enter my number and let me participate in texting? Maybe a paid app? (Could I build this with service otherwise?)
etchalon 3y ago
It continues to be weird that anyone treats this as a technical battle when I'm sure Beeper will get a cease and desist at anytime.
lopkeny12ko 3y ago
How is this not getting flagged by regulatory bodies as blatantly monopolistic behavior?
- dijit 3y ago
  Same reason PS messenger can block third party clients. Is it ethical? Not in my opinion. Facetime and iMessage were introduced under the guise of becoming open at some point, however that was because they lost a patent lawsuit iirc[0] it's worth focusing on the differences between iMessage and Internet Explorer (which was the last monopoly battle that anyone cares about). The truth of it is: across Apple devices, while iMessage is installed, the alternative message systems are just too successful to argue. The overwhelming majority are using facebook messenger or whatsapp anyway. So there's no evidence that Apple is curbing another industry. Apple is also not in a monopolistic position except on their own hardware, which is true for everyone (including Blackberry with their messenger). [0]: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-20236114 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-20236114
- jabedude 3y ago
  Is Southwest Airlines not carrying luggage from United for free blatantly monopolistic behavior?
  - tristan957 3y ago
    I am struggling to see how this is comparable. Allowing iPhone users to talk to Android users through iMessage is a benefit to iPhone users. iPhone users get more end-to-end encrypted messages.
- munchler 3y ago
  To be monopolistic, Apple would have to have a monopoly in messaging, which they surely don’t.
  - tristan957 3y ago
    Why do people continue to think that you have to have a monopoly to be monopolistic? Also, Apple does have a monopoly. They have a monopoly on all devices that can communicate through iMessage. If that should be taken up by the DOJ or some other body is up to your interpretation of the law.
_8j50 3y ago
You know all the drm-y attestation b.s., yeah, don't be surprised when stuff like this accelerates apple and co.'s adaption of it. They can require the cpu to cryptographically verify imessage for it to talk to other clients. I hope the reverse engineers have a lot of fun though. I don't oppose it but I do wonder why people can't just use a different client? Same with the usb-c nonsense, walled garden lawsuits,etc... when alternatives are viable, is it right to be intolerant of what you don't like? If I want to start a closed source proprietary crappy messaging app and I don't want other clients to talk to it, why would someone have a problem with that? But again, I think beeper's work is cool, I just have a hard time understanding the whole anti-apple sentiment. I mean, why support apple at all on your messaging app if you don't like them? Does apple or do apple users owe everyone else participation in their ecosystem? I just can't reconcile the attitude with the attitude of liberty for all.
rezonant 3y ago
I think this is kinda technically a win for Beeper. I would've expected another 100% lockout to be Apple's priority. They were instead only able to block 5%, which sounds like a heuristic being applied, and possibly not even an intentional block of Beeper (in the sense that some anti-spam service may be identifying some Beeper users). They can certainly escalate with protocol changes, but they still have to contend with older Macs, iPhones and iPads which are out of the support window losing access-- so if they want to update the protocol they either have to issue out of band patches for these devices or cut them off too. This is assuming you can actually iMessage on iDevices that are out of software support -- maybe our iOS friends can let us know. EDIT: This take seems more plausible (that this is intentional by Apple): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38648030 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38648030
- unstatusthequo 3y ago
  Apple owns the delivery mechanism. I don’t believe that a third party using their ecosystem will last long. Nor do I want it. There are plenty of cross-platform things out there. Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp. Why does everyone care so much? Google can paint their Android robot blue. Then maybe all this silliness will end?
  - makeitdouble 3y ago
    > Nor do I want it > Why does everyone care so much? You seem to both care about it, and also wonder why other people care about it ? Otherwise, looking from the sideline it's fascinating seeing Apple fighting this battle that they brought upon themselves and have no chance of winning.
    - hx8 3y ago
      > have no chance of winning I think Apple will almost certainly win on a purely technical game of cat and mouse. I think you need to adjust your definition of winning. Blocking 5% of messages is a 'win' for Apple. I won't use a messaging service with a 95% success rate. I won't migrate from iMessage to Beeper. I will submit, Apple would have liked a more decisive victory.
sircastor 3y ago
It seems fairy obvious to me that the simple solution here is for Apple simply send a cease-and-desist to Beeper to stop using their network in an unauthorized manner (and I mean that in the literal sense of “you don’t have permission to do this”) The only reason I can think of that Apple is willing to let this go on is to plug holes in their system shown by a relatively benign opponent.
huevosabio 3y ago
Completely uninformed question, doesn't this fight just push people to WhatsApp? I never use SMS, and no one in Mexico does either. My friends in Europe seem to largely use WhatsApp as well. So it really seems like Americans are outliers in their choice for iMessage / SMS. So, wouldn't this push Americans to WhatsApp?
- wpm 3y ago
  Most people who use iMessage here have literally no idea this is even happening and would not care if I told them. It's still just as hard as it's always been to get all of your friends/contacts to "just switch to WhatsApp".
  - noirbot 3y ago
    Also, pretty sure the overlap of "would ever want to use Whatsapp" and "cares about iMessage at all" is zero. Either you have Apple Status Symbol people, or you have "Meta can die in a fire entirely" or "idk, I just use SMS and some people have iMessage". The first and last groups aren't gonna switch, and the middle are probably only ever going to use Telegram or Signal.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- rtpg 3y ago
  I think what happened is that Americans got unlimited SMS plans meaning they got used to just communicating by SMS. Europe got WhatsApp to deal with wild SMS pricing. So Europeans moved over to WhatsApp etc. Americans continued using SMS. Apple took advantage of this with iMessage silently upgrading stuff to their protocol. On top of this iPhone penetration in many places in the US is much higher I think.
  - simonklitj 3y ago
    Wild SMS pricing in Europe? Unlimited SMS has been the default in Denmark for at least 15 years.
paxys 3y ago
This ongoing saga reminds me of that famous story about how Microsoft engineers played a similar cat and mouse game to make MSN messenger interoperate with Yahoo's despite multiple efforts by the latter to block it.
- rezonant 3y ago
  Someone linked to this recently, it's a great read. https://www.nplusonemag.com/issue-19/essays/chat-wars/ https://www.nplusonemag.com/issue-19/essays/chat-wars/
unsigner 3y ago
These comments mention spam a lot as a reason to stick with iMessage. What kind of spam are people (presumably in the US) getting outside of iMessage? I’m in the EU, I get very little SMS spam (mostly for telecom’s clumsy attempts to find more ways to monetize me). I also have Viber, Telegram, and FB messenger, and the spam is virtually zero on Viber (less than an “offer” a month, and it’s from the likes of Coca Cola, not herbal viagra) and literally zero on the others. Is spam significantly worse elsewhere?
- lgbr 3y ago
  I don't have hard numbers, but I can say that spam on both sides of the ocean exist. In the US, we get a lot of SMS spam targeted at homeowners, pestering them about selling their property, since there's a lot of open data about property ownership. In Germany, there's frequently spam pretending to be one of the major shipping companies (DHL for example) or the local customs office (Zoll) saying you have a package that couldn't be delivered and to click on a link. I've found the source for this data to be customer data leaks. So yes, spam is a serious concern. WhatsApp spam exists as well, but since there's a central authority, unlike with SMS, it's a lot harder to avoid being shutdown.
- pashky 3y ago
  I'm getting somewhat noticeable (once every few weeks) phishing attempts on Telegram and Instagram, less frequent on WhatsApp. On Instagram they sit unobtrusively in "requests" and disappear after some time, in Telegram and Whatsapp they do pop up and have to be deleted.
- kelnos 3y ago
  I think everyone's spam experience on the various platforms just tends to vary a lot. Some people see iMessage spam, while others swear they haven't ever gotten one. Ditto for all the other services. I see SMS/MMS spam in spurts; I'll get one or two spam messages a day for a week or so, and then nothing for months. On Whatsapp, I get a few spam messages a month. I've never seen spam on GChat or FB Messenger. I don't use Viber or Telegram, so can't speak to those.
- paulgb 3y ago
deleted 3y ago
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pashky 3y ago
I'm your typical Whatsapp on iPhone user from Europe who's here just for a good drama, but blimey if this guy's rhetoric isn't sooo repetitive and cringey now. Like, my dude, it was an impressive technical hack, and you really pulled the tiger's whiskers when you went to prod with it, but dressing it in politics and greater mission and "freedom" with bald eagles and shit? Meh.
cunidev 3y ago
It seems like the effort Apple is putting in stopping this is an indicator of how many people buy iPhones just for being in their iMessage circles. Which is only possible as long as Apple keeps snubbing RCS and making messaging painful to non-iPhone users. If, say, a random cheap Motorola with Beeper could keep them in the same groups as before, Apple would probably lose a (small) chunks of its clients.
- delta_p_delta_x 3y ago
  > how many people buy iPhones just for being in their iMessage circles This is news only in the US. Literally everywhere else in the world (where iPhones don't have a supermajority market share), third-party apps like WhatsApp, Telegram, Line, WeChat, Facebook Messenger, etc have been used for the past decade, with no problems whatsoever. My own WhatsApp account has been active for a decade, with chats going back exactly that far.
  - msh 3y ago
    I think saying its US only is oversimplifying, its at least also true in some european markets.
    - leonheld 3y ago
      Which ones? I have friends (young and old) all over Europe and everyone uses WhatsApp. Everywhere I've been in Europe defaults to WhatsApp, even for business communication. Like, it's n=1, but still, my experience is quite broad.
      - jeppebemad 3y ago
        In Denmark hardly anyone uses WhatsApp by default. No business I’ve seen uses it. Android is common. I’m currently in Indonesia however, and it’s universal both privately and corporately.
      - InCityDreams 3y ago
        EU: I'm trying to get everyone i know onto signal. Hard fight. I tried whatsapp for a month and it was so facebooky (that I also got rid of yeeaaars ago, after trying for a month) that I deleted it. Whatsapp is very common, though and I am gradually being pushed out of various communications (my doctor, for example, pharmacies). At least I don't have to bugger about with Teams which is the requirement for my kids' schools. Amicable divorce, but I don't have that on my phone, unlike my ex (who hates it).
ds 3y ago
Technically speaking, Beeper can keep working for a long time. That is, Until apple starts checking if the client is on a official apple device. This may or may not be feasible for Apple to implement, mostly depending on if they even have the resources/method to know if every device is legitimate or not (they may not- especially for older devices) If they do have a way to enforce 'authentic' devices, the only step after that for beeper to take will be to ask users to purchase the cheapest iphone that still works for imessage and to extract its serial/key/whatever to import into the android client.
sprite 3y ago
They could ask Google to remove it from Play Store also.
EricHolden12 3y ago
You buy a first class ticket for an airline and you get access to the lounge in the airport with fast wifi and snacks. Outside there are people with different tickets screaming to be let in because they know someone in there and it’s not fair that they can’t go in. And Migicovsky is on the side trying to dig a little tunnel into the lounge. iMessage is a perk of using an iPhone. You want to use iMessage? Get an iPhone.
LeeYung1 3y ago
[dead]

297 points by CharlesW 3y ago

dcdevito 3y ago

[dead]

mngdtt 3y ago

[flagged]

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
[flagged]
- teekert 3y ago
  [flagged]
freerobby 3y ago
What's this in reference to? WhatsApp, Signal, and many others are in the App Store.
- avarun 3y ago
  ...He's clearly talking about third-party replacements for the default messaging app, ie. apps that are allowed to interface with the SMS/MMS protocol implemented by your phone. Android has had this capability forever. Not sure why everybody responding to him is being obtuse. If you don't understand something, maybe take a minute to think about it instead of assuming the person you're talking to is an idiot. (Not you, yours is the sanest response by far)
nerdjon 3y ago
Um… sees Snapchat and Discord on my iPhone I guess… I just jailbroke my iPhone and installed these? That’s news to me.
i5-2520M 3y ago
Yeah if US iPhone users bothered to download any of them to message their friends better then it would matter. Unfortunately however...

nocoiner 3y ago

Beeper CEO, from the article: "If there's enough pressure on Apple, they will have to quit messing with us." "Us," he clarified, meant both Apple's customers using iMessage and Android users trying to chat securely with iPhone friends. "That's who they're penalizing," he wrote. "It's not a Beeper vs. Apple fight, it's Apple versus customers." Not really sure how this is anti-customer. Apple customers have ample access to iMessage, after all. And as has been noted many, many times, there are many means of accessing secure cross-platform messaging.

echelon 3y ago
> Apple customers have ample access to iMessage, after all. It's not really fair that Apple gets to build snares around owning the most successful and important platform in modern civilization. This isn't an automobile where there are 50 alternative manufacturers, this is the "everything" device that handles your bills, employment, connections to loved ones, etc. And there's only one other choice of vendor in the United States. Apple shouldn't be able to exercise their position (nor should Google) to own every aspect of human life built atop this connection. Mobile internet shouldn't belong to anyone. It shouldn't be taxed by anyone. And yet here we are. One of the first rulings from antitrust I would expect is non-proprietary messaging protocols.
- qeternity 3y ago
  > This isn't an automobile where there are 50 alternative manufacturers No, it’s exactly this. There are a ton of manufacturers all providing this product. It just so happens that Apple’s is one of the best, if not the best. And as has been mentioned, there are tons of secure messaging alternatives. It’s just that people prefer iMessage. This is not illegal or anticompetitive. Imagine if someone claimed they should be let into an airport lounge of an airline they aren’t flying on, simply because their friends are there.
  - smallerfish 3y ago
    [flagged]
  - 3y ago

wolpoli 3y ago

MSN Messenger played a similar cat-and-mouse game with AOL Instant Messenger long time ago. Unlike MSN Messenger which used this publicity to grow their own market share, I am not sure what's the end game for Beeper.

paulddraper 3y ago
The end game for Beeper is a significant presence on the most popular OS on the planet. I don't think their interested in replacing iMessage directly, if that's your question.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
notnmeyer 3y ago
attention? this has brought beeper _tremendous_ publicity. i think it’s naive to think that beeper didn’t expect this—its win-win for them no matter what. they could and so they did.
- madeofpalk 3y ago
  Win-win no matter what? An extremely likely scenario is that Beeper becomes completely defunct, and Apple has no legal or regulartory pressure applied to them. What's the win for Beeper here?
  - commoner 3y ago
    Beeper (Beeper Cloud) is a cross-platform stack that supports multiple messaging systems (not just iMessage) and has been in development for years.[1] This is different from Beeper Mini, which is a recently launched Android-exclusive app that only supports SMS/MMS and iMessage.[2] The release of Beeper Mini certainly gained publicity for Beeper Cloud, and I don't see why Beeper Mini would cause Beeper Cloud to go defunct. [1] Beeper Cloud: https://www.beeper.com/cloud https://www.beeper.com/cloud [2] Beeper Mini: https://blog.beeper.com/p/introducing-beeper-mini-get-blue https://blog.beeper.com/p/introducing-beeper-mini-get-blue

thot_experiment 3y ago

Is it common for people to use texts in 2023 in your social circle? I think I've been texted once this year. I mean obviously people care about this to some extent otherwise this app wouldn't exist but in my experience when I meet someone they'll give me insta or discord, unless they're a tryhard and then it's always signal (blegh). EDIT: not sure i'm being downvoted? i'm genuinely curious because i never use SMS or iMessage myself and haven't for some years so this seemed very niche to me, even randos i meet out in the world all seem to just chat on discord and insta (I'm in the bay area but most of my friends are not tech bros)

pb7 3y ago
Yes, it's the only way we communicate. Instagram for strangers, iMessage for friends.
that_guy_iain 3y ago
You‘ve just given multiple different text messengers that you use to text message when asking if people still text. Yes, people do. Non technically minded are very big users for the default text messaging apps.
- thot_experiment 3y ago
  text message means SMS in my dialect, sorry
  - madeofpalk 3y ago
    iMessage is not SMS.
    - thot_experiment 3y ago
      ok sorry mr pedant, text message to me means the default tied to your number way of communicating on your phone
      - 3y ago

NettleBurr 3y ago

>Apple on Wednesday appeared to have blocked what Beeper described as "~5% of Beeper Mini users" from accessing iMessages >Apple previously issued a (somewhat uncommon) statement about Beeper's iMessage access, stating that it "took steps to protect our users by blocking techniques that exploit fake credentials in order to gain access to iMessage." Citing privacy, security, and spam concerns, Apple stated it would "continue to make updates in the future" to protect users. Migicovsky previously denied to Ars that Beeper used "fake credentials" or in any way made iMessages less secure. Not commenting about the ethics of all this, just wondering why technically Apple can only block ~5% of Beeper Mini users instead of all of them? Could this potentially be tied to the use of an email id as the iMessage handle?

user_7832 3y ago
> Not commenting about the ethics of all this, just wondering why technically Apple can only block ~5% of Beeper Mini users instead of all of them? Could this potentially be tied to the use of an email id as the iMessage handle? I wonder if it might also have anything to do with govt action. I believe a US elected rep recently tweeted in favour of Beeper. Apple cares much more about PR than they'll admit, and server costs for them are negligible.
- nozzlegear 3y ago
  The rep was Senator Elizabeth Warren, who was once pretty popular during the Obama years when she helped create the CFPB. She sadly doesn’t hold much sway (e: in the senate) anymore.
I_Am_Nous 3y ago
Seems like a chess move. Apple blocks a small percentage of users instead of all of them, which casts uncertainty on using Beeper Mini at all. It also allows them to A/B test various methods of blocking or honeypotting Beeper Mini logins without giving away any big secrets. From Beeper's perspective, they now have to figure out why only those logins were blocked and if they need to patch something or not. Apple could be wasting their time and blocked random users out of spite. Time will tell.

shreyansh_k 3y ago

This seems to be Beeper's insincere attempt at dressing up their grievances to appear as if they were in advantage of the [Apple's] customer. Apple has made it clear that they won't bring iMessage to Android. People who choose to invest in Android phones know they won't get access to iMessage. It seems a bit entitled behaviour for someone to feel like Apple should be forced to bring iMessage to Android for any reason besides Apple's own choice, and that they know better than Apple on how to run Apple's business.

user_7832 3y ago
> It seems a bit entitled behaviour for someone to feel like Apple should be forced to bring iMessage to Android for any reason besides Apple's own choice, and that they know better than Apple on how to run Apple's business. It is simultaneously possible for it to appear entitled, while also recognizing how extremely restrictive, anti consumer and anti competition Apple is. And in this fight of a trillion dollar company vs something a little bigger than a startup, it's fun to root for the small guys who are hitting back at that restrictedness, sometimes even successfully.
- shreyansh_k 3y ago
  It can be agreeable to an extend that Apple seem like an extremely restrictive, anti consumer and anti competition. But, the other side (Android), which has been positioned open, pro-consumer and pro-competition doesn't seem to be true to its roots or any better anyways. Android is mostly dominated by Samsung and Samsung is heavily pushing their own ecosystem of apps, just like every other company, and most brands want to lock in their users too. It's a sad state of affairs.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - rezonant 3y ago
    You can push your own ecosystem of apps and still allow your customers to replace them. I'm not aware of a Samsung app or service that cannot be swapped out. And I struggle even more to find a Samsung component that is designed to create network effect lock in like iMessage is. And Apple Messages can't be swapped out, it is the only texting app on iOS. You can install Signal or Whatsapp or whatever, but you can only talk to other people who have those apps installed. You cannot use them to talk to any phone number like a texting app can.

cdme 3y ago

I miss the days when chat wasn't fragmented across apps and platforms or could at least be unified in apps like Adium. Having to have a different app installed for myriad different contacts is, at best, irritating.

lapinot 3y ago
Couldn't you have said "compartmentalized", or "dominated by hostile silos" or anything else that doesn't involve comparison of the state of online chatting with wars that have killed humans? I agree things were nice with adium.
- jrflowers 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - Youden 3y ago
    I think that's essentially their point. The root of the term "balkanized" is war and the person they're replying to could have used a word with less violent connotations like the ones listed.
  - Rebelgecko 3y ago
    FYI "TW" is outdated language and shouldn't be used any more. The phrase can elicit stress about what's to follow, and the t-word is associated with violent imagery.
    - jrflowers 3y ago
      Imagery is problematic, it is an aggression to put a picture into another person’s head without informed consent
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
  - 3y ago

jiggawatts 3y ago

The fundamental issue is that there are no readily-available iPhone emulators that can send iMessages, and this is a good thing that people pay for. The benefit of the Apple walled garden is that the spammers are kept out, because they can't get fifty SIM cards, plug them in to a "SIM box"[1], and start sending hundreds of thousands of scam messages via iMessage. This is easy in an uncontrolled, open-source ecosystem, but is prohibitively difficult in Apple's ecosystem where you need a physical device with a unique cryptographic ID that can be locked out by a central authority. Yes, it's an "exclusive club" where members pay to keep the general public out. The general public doesn't like this, but that is what it is. Inherently, allowing "anyone" in would void the exclusivity and invite an unrelenting flood of spam. At best, Apple could open up iMessage to other vendors that have similarly well-controlled devices with good hardware cryptographic attestation, but there aren't any. [1] https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/sydney-man-charged-with-sending-17-million-scam-texts-20231213-p5er5a.html https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/sydney-man-charged-with-...

ewoodrich 3y ago
Isn't there? You can use iMessage via the Messages app on a Mac and tools like BlueBubbles already have hooks to send and receive iMessages using the official client.
- jiggawatts 3y ago
  Macs are an Apple product and have the very nearly the same hardware protections.
  - sudosysgen 3y ago
    How so? You can easily automate sending messages on a Mac, and you can easily change the IDs on Intel based Macs. Ultimately, the only solid line of defence is banning your phone number and Apple ID.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]

bastard_op 3y ago

Because of course they did, they like that children make fun of their peers that have a green message vs. a blue, and that's exactly what they want. They're like "ew, are you poor and can't afford a $1200 iphone?" It is now a petty, but prevalent status symbol of being better than others, namely perceived "poor" or otherwise lesser android users.

dann0 3y ago
Did you just unironically use a “would someone think of the children?” argument? Of all the interesting points in this situation, this is not even close to being relevant
- sbuk 3y ago
  The whole green-bubble debate is essentially an appeal to emotion...
lotsofpulp 3y ago
Brand new iPhones have been available for $430 on apple.com for many years now. And most young minimum wage employees with very little money and no "status" also use iPhones. It is not a signal of poor/status, it is a signal of weird/not weird, without commenting on the validity of that, of course. For example, people do not opt out of dating Android users because they think Android users are poor, they opt out because they think Android users have a higher likelihood of being sufficiently "weird" such that they do not want to engage.
- quartesixte 3y ago
  That’s also entirely USA centric and a byproduct of everyone sticking to SMS-phone number systems to chat. It drives me nuts. WhatsApp. WeChat. Line. Kakao. Facebook Messenger. Most of the world has switched to these dedicated apps. Only glimmer of hope is that gen-z/gen-alpha is really into Discord (at least all the ones I know). Might finally bring down the iMessage group chats.
  - 3y ago

dann0 3y ago

[flagged]

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>t’s really interesting that so many people are defending a corporation stealing from another company Boo-hoo, let me play you the world's smallest violin for Apple's "suffering". Apple is the richest company in the world, it has more money than God, they can fend for themselves just fine, why should anyone shed a tear that someone is stealing from them? People are defending others stealing from Apple because Apple has a history of stealing from other companies and developers as well, so it's just karma. Though you'll have to enlighten me what exactly it is they are stealing from Apple since Apple doesn't charge money for iMessage for there to be any theft or loss of revenue for them. Unless your definition of theft is "YOU WOULDN'T DOWNLOAD A CAR?!"
- the_gastropod 3y ago
  > Though you'll have to enlighten me what exactly it is they are stealing from Apple since Apple doesn't charge money for iMessage for there to be any theft or loss of revenue for them. Unless your definition of theft is "YOU WOULDN'T DOWNLOAD A CAR?!" Apple doesn't charge money for iMessage in much the same way Microsoft doesn't charge money for MS Paint. iMessage is included as part of an Apple hardware purchase. Running a messaging system that likely handles billions of messages—with photo and video attachments—every day is not free. Apple's device sales subsidize the cost Apple pays to run this system. Beeper using this system by exploiting a technical loophole is theft in a much more direct way than pirating a copy of an audio track is, I think.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    >Apple's device sales subsidize the cost Apple pays to run this system. And Beeper bought and paid for the Apple devices which they use to route iMessage. What's the problem? Looks fair and square to me. Apple is legally allowed to try to block me for breaking their ToS, but legally, I bought the device, I can do whatever I want with it since it's my property now, including trying to route iMessage on my device and my account if hat's what I want. It's still not stealing because I paid Apple for the HW, and stealing means breaking the law, not breaking Apple's ToS which are silly and worthless anyway.

kylehotchkiss 3y ago

Amazing this same story keeps getting reposted every other day. Slow news week? Great time to announce something you've been working on HNers!

chrisoverzero 3y ago
> Amazing this same story keeps getting reposted every other day. It keeps happening.

JoblessWonder 3y ago

As I mentioned in the previous discussion[1], users are going to have to put up with the system going down... and I just don't see that happening. From the article: "It was losing messages during the outage and never being entirely certain they had been sent or received. There was a gathering on Saturday, and she had to double-check with a couple people about the details after showing up inadvertently early at the wrong spot." https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38533775 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38533775

tshirthoodie 3y ago
Apple's iMessage implementation loses messages all the time. It happens about once every month between my girlfriend and I. I have also had iMesages be sent to the wrong recipient. In one ongoing case, my aunt and uncle frequently receive each other's iMessages, suggesting it's related to their group carrier plan but it's hard to say. The extended family all knows to use SMS instead, which reliably goes to the intended recipient. They are both retired and always together so they haven't reached the point of getting a new plan.
- rgbrenner 3y ago
  iMessage is routed through apple's servers over TCP. So this is like saying: sometimes I go to google.com but it randomly loads bing.com... must be related to my group carrier plan What data made you make that association? Seems unlikely. If that happens, then apple would have to be routing messages incorrectly, but that would be a massive bug/security issue... especially considering how E2EE works.
  - tshirthoodie 3y ago
    Yeah, who knows? I am only brainstorming. Ever since I discovered the abysmal state of Apple's customer service after having my iphone stolen last year, I feel confident we will never know.
    - frumper 3y ago

josephcsible 3y ago

When Ma Bell didn't let people use third-party phones with their service, the government made them change their ways. Why is the government letting Apple get away with the equivalent?

stouset 3y ago
Ma Bell had a monopoly. This is one messaging app on one brand of phone. Nothing stops you from using another phone, or multiple or other messaging apps. And messaging apps aren’t restricted by a “default” in quite the same way a web browser is. I have friends on WhatsApp and Signal and Instagram and I message them all without any appreciable difference in effort.
- josephcsible 3y ago
  As long as iMessage doesn't support federation, Apple has a monopoly on it too. If not, then Ma Bell wouldn't have had a monopoly either, since you could say mailing letters was a competitor to telephones.
  - madeofpalk 3y ago
    That's nonsensical. Reddit has a monopoly on Reddit - of course it does. Any service online is under no obligation to allow for widespread interpoperation - that would be madness.
    - hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
      > Any service online is under no obligation to allow for widespread interpoperation - that would be madness. Lol, "madness". The Digital Services Act in the EU would like a word.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - nicce 3y ago

MR4D 3y ago

I don't understand how this is not theft of service, or at least unlawful access. If I am reading the articles on Beeper correctly, they've applied a pretty brilliant hack to gain access to the iMessage network without an Apple ID. That last part seems key (pardon the pun). Can someone explain this to me? I feel like this technical issue is really in the weeds, so I'm sure there are multiple nuances I'm missing...

MR4D 3y ago
Ok, people clearly aren't reading the first few words (nor the last line) of my post: "I don't understand..." "Can someone explain this to me? "
- wrboyce 3y ago
  I think the problem is that you do understand and have explained it perfectly, but some people can’t handle the truth. These threads have brought out some ludicrous opinions (as anything Apple centric tends to on HN).
  - MR4D 3y ago
    Well, I actually don’t think I do. For instance, wouldn’t this have to be reported as an unauthorized intrusion (getting access to a user’s messages without using their ID) ? Also, nothing I’ve read has any criminal aspect to it (ignoring DMCA stuff). Given all the issues with SMS security and spoofing, you’d think this would be an issue, but nobody has brought it up. Seems unlikely that given all the coverage that I’d be the first and only person to notice that, which is why I don’t think I truly understand it.
GeekyBear 3y ago
It certainly seems like it would have to be a violation of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. If you recall, Aaron Swartz was hounded to death using that law after accessing JSTOR's servers without permission. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Swartz https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Swartz

api 3y ago

A lot of people don’t understand the absolutely insane (and totally stupid) power of “blue text” in social settings, especially among teens. “Green text” is social suicide, largely because a lot of reactions and emojis and stuff don’t work. It’s also a status symbol… even though high end Android phones cost about what higher end iPhones cost and refurb iPhones are cheap. The iMessage platform is probably the strongest lock in on iPhones. Break that and the phone market gets competitive again.

sroussey 3y ago
So the biggest impediment to competition is the status of a blue text box in one messaging app? If so, create your “status symbol” message app and you can go buy apple or google after, lol
burlesona 3y ago
This is a weird take when iMessage isn’t even popular outside the US, and Android has 70% global market share. The market is very competitive.
theshackleford 3y ago
> A lot of people don’t understand the absolutely insane (and totally stupid) power of “blue text” in social settings In America. The rest of the world doesnt give a shit. > Break that and the phone market gets competitive again. See above.
- paxys 3y ago
  Most of America also doesn't give a shit. This whole blue/green bubble thing is a story only among nerds and some tech elitists.
  - tenacious_tuna 3y ago
    I was at a company holiday setting with some coworkers and one of them mentioned how the green/blue text thing genuinely factored into their dating decisions, on the basis that texting with someone without iMessage made the conversation clunkier and harder to build rapport. So... I don't think this is just among nerds and tech elitists.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

bilsbie 3y ago

Semi related. I got a smart watch with a phone number but I can’t text from it. Can this product or a different product let me enter my number and let me participate in texting? Maybe a paid app? (Could I build this with service otherwise?)

etchalon 3y ago

It continues to be weird that anyone treats this as a technical battle when I'm sure Beeper will get a cease and desist at anytime.

lopkeny12ko 3y ago

How is this not getting flagged by regulatory bodies as blatantly monopolistic behavior?

dijit 3y ago
Same reason PS messenger can block third party clients. Is it ethical? Not in my opinion. Facetime and iMessage were introduced under the guise of becoming open at some point, however that was because they lost a patent lawsuit iirc[0] it's worth focusing on the differences between iMessage and Internet Explorer (which was the last monopoly battle that anyone cares about). The truth of it is: across Apple devices, while iMessage is installed, the alternative message systems are just too successful to argue. The overwhelming majority are using facebook messenger or whatsapp anyway. So there's no evidence that Apple is curbing another industry. Apple is also not in a monopolistic position except on their own hardware, which is true for everyone (including Blackberry with their messenger). [0]: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-20236114 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-20236114
jabedude 3y ago
Is Southwest Airlines not carrying luggage from United for free blatantly monopolistic behavior?
- tristan957 3y ago
  I am struggling to see how this is comparable. Allowing iPhone users to talk to Android users through iMessage is a benefit to iPhone users. iPhone users get more end-to-end encrypted messages.
munchler 3y ago
To be monopolistic, Apple would have to have a monopoly in messaging, which they surely don’t.
- tristan957 3y ago
  Why do people continue to think that you have to have a monopoly to be monopolistic? Also, Apple does have a monopoly. They have a monopoly on all devices that can communicate through iMessage. If that should be taken up by the DOJ or some other body is up to your interpretation of the law.

_8j50 3y ago

You know all the drm-y attestation b.s., yeah, don't be surprised when stuff like this accelerates apple and co.'s adaption of it. They can require the cpu to cryptographically verify imessage for it to talk to other clients. I hope the reverse engineers have a lot of fun though. I don't oppose it but I do wonder why people can't just use a different client? Same with the usb-c nonsense, walled garden lawsuits,etc... when alternatives are viable, is it right to be intolerant of what you don't like? If I want to start a closed source proprietary crappy messaging app and I don't want other clients to talk to it, why would someone have a problem with that? But again, I think beeper's work is cool, I just have a hard time understanding the whole anti-apple sentiment. I mean, why support apple at all on your messaging app if you don't like them? Does apple or do apple users owe everyone else participation in their ecosystem? I just can't reconcile the attitude with the attitude of liberty for all.

rezonant 3y ago

I think this is kinda technically a win for Beeper. I would've expected another 100% lockout to be Apple's priority. They were instead only able to block 5%, which sounds like a heuristic being applied, and possibly not even an intentional block of Beeper (in the sense that some anti-spam service may be identifying some Beeper users). They can certainly escalate with protocol changes, but they still have to contend with older Macs, iPhones and iPads which are out of the support window losing access-- so if they want to update the protocol they either have to issue out of band patches for these devices or cut them off too. This is assuming you can actually iMessage on iDevices that are out of software support -- maybe our iOS friends can let us know. EDIT: This take seems more plausible (that this is intentional by Apple): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38648030 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38648030

unstatusthequo 3y ago
Apple owns the delivery mechanism. I don’t believe that a third party using their ecosystem will last long. Nor do I want it. There are plenty of cross-platform things out there. Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp. Why does everyone care so much? Google can paint their Android robot blue. Then maybe all this silliness will end?
- makeitdouble 3y ago
  > Nor do I want it > Why does everyone care so much? You seem to both care about it, and also wonder why other people care about it ? Otherwise, looking from the sideline it's fascinating seeing Apple fighting this battle that they brought upon themselves and have no chance of winning.
  - hx8 3y ago
    > have no chance of winning I think Apple will almost certainly win on a purely technical game of cat and mouse. I think you need to adjust your definition of winning. Blocking 5% of messages is a 'win' for Apple. I won't use a messaging service with a 95% success rate. I won't migrate from iMessage to Beeper. I will submit, Apple would have liked a more decisive victory.

sircastor 3y ago

It seems fairy obvious to me that the simple solution here is for Apple simply send a cease-and-desist to Beeper to stop using their network in an unauthorized manner (and I mean that in the literal sense of “you don’t have permission to do this”) The only reason I can think of that Apple is willing to let this go on is to plug holes in their system shown by a relatively benign opponent.

huevosabio 3y ago

Completely uninformed question, doesn't this fight just push people to WhatsApp? I never use SMS, and no one in Mexico does either. My friends in Europe seem to largely use WhatsApp as well. So it really seems like Americans are outliers in their choice for iMessage / SMS. So, wouldn't this push Americans to WhatsApp?

wpm 3y ago
Most people who use iMessage here have literally no idea this is even happening and would not care if I told them. It's still just as hard as it's always been to get all of your friends/contacts to "just switch to WhatsApp".
- noirbot 3y ago
  Also, pretty sure the overlap of "would ever want to use Whatsapp" and "cares about iMessage at all" is zero. Either you have Apple Status Symbol people, or you have "Meta can die in a fire entirely" or "idk, I just use SMS and some people have iMessage". The first and last groups aren't gonna switch, and the middle are probably only ever going to use Telegram or Signal.
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rtpg 3y ago
I think what happened is that Americans got unlimited SMS plans meaning they got used to just communicating by SMS. Europe got WhatsApp to deal with wild SMS pricing. So Europeans moved over to WhatsApp etc. Americans continued using SMS. Apple took advantage of this with iMessage silently upgrading stuff to their protocol. On top of this iPhone penetration in many places in the US is much higher I think.
- simonklitj 3y ago
  Wild SMS pricing in Europe? Unlimited SMS has been the default in Denmark for at least 15 years.

paxys 3y ago

This ongoing saga reminds me of that famous story about how Microsoft engineers played a similar cat and mouse game to make MSN messenger interoperate with Yahoo's despite multiple efforts by the latter to block it.

rezonant 3y ago
Someone linked to this recently, it's a great read. https://www.nplusonemag.com/issue-19/essays/chat-wars/ https://www.nplusonemag.com/issue-19/essays/chat-wars/

unsigner 3y ago

These comments mention spam a lot as a reason to stick with iMessage. What kind of spam are people (presumably in the US) getting outside of iMessage? I’m in the EU, I get very little SMS spam (mostly for telecom’s clumsy attempts to find more ways to monetize me). I also have Viber, Telegram, and FB messenger, and the spam is virtually zero on Viber (less than an “offer” a month, and it’s from the likes of Coca Cola, not herbal viagra) and literally zero on the others. Is spam significantly worse elsewhere?

lgbr 3y ago
I don't have hard numbers, but I can say that spam on both sides of the ocean exist. In the US, we get a lot of SMS spam targeted at homeowners, pestering them about selling their property, since there's a lot of open data about property ownership. In Germany, there's frequently spam pretending to be one of the major shipping companies (DHL for example) or the local customs office (Zoll) saying you have a package that couldn't be delivered and to click on a link. I've found the source for this data to be customer data leaks. So yes, spam is a serious concern. WhatsApp spam exists as well, but since there's a central authority, unlike with SMS, it's a lot harder to avoid being shutdown.
pashky 3y ago
I'm getting somewhat noticeable (once every few weeks) phishing attempts on Telegram and Instagram, less frequent on WhatsApp. On Instagram they sit unobtrusively in "requests" and disappear after some time, in Telegram and Whatsapp they do pop up and have to be deleted.
kelnos 3y ago
I think everyone's spam experience on the various platforms just tends to vary a lot. Some people see iMessage spam, while others swear they haven't ever gotten one. Ditto for all the other services. I see SMS/MMS spam in spurts; I'll get one or two spam messages a day for a week or so, and then nothing for months. On Whatsapp, I get a few spam messages a month. I've never seen spam on GChat or FB Messenger. I don't use Viber or Telegram, so can't speak to those.
paulgb 3y ago

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pashky 3y ago

I'm your typical Whatsapp on iPhone user from Europe who's here just for a good drama, but blimey if this guy's rhetoric isn't sooo repetitive and cringey now. Like, my dude, it was an impressive technical hack, and you really pulled the tiger's whiskers when you went to prod with it, but dressing it in politics and greater mission and "freedom" with bald eagles and shit? Meh.

cunidev 3y ago

It seems like the effort Apple is putting in stopping this is an indicator of how many people buy iPhones just for being in their iMessage circles. Which is only possible as long as Apple keeps snubbing RCS and making messaging painful to non-iPhone users. If, say, a random cheap Motorola with Beeper could keep them in the same groups as before, Apple would probably lose a (small) chunks of its clients.

delta_p_delta_x 3y ago
> how many people buy iPhones just for being in their iMessage circles This is news only in the US. Literally everywhere else in the world (where iPhones don't have a supermajority market share), third-party apps like WhatsApp, Telegram, Line, WeChat, Facebook Messenger, etc have been used for the past decade, with no problems whatsoever. My own WhatsApp account has been active for a decade, with chats going back exactly that far.
- msh 3y ago
  I think saying its US only is oversimplifying, its at least also true in some european markets.
  - leonheld 3y ago
    Which ones? I have friends (young and old) all over Europe and everyone uses WhatsApp. Everywhere I've been in Europe defaults to WhatsApp, even for business communication. Like, it's n=1, but still, my experience is quite broad.
    - jeppebemad 3y ago
      In Denmark hardly anyone uses WhatsApp by default. No business I’ve seen uses it. Android is common. I’m currently in Indonesia however, and it’s universal both privately and corporately.
    - InCityDreams 3y ago
      EU: I'm trying to get everyone i know onto signal. Hard fight. I tried whatsapp for a month and it was so facebooky (that I also got rid of yeeaaars ago, after trying for a month) that I deleted it. Whatsapp is very common, though and I am gradually being pushed out of various communications (my doctor, for example, pharmacies). At least I don't have to bugger about with Teams which is the requirement for my kids' schools. Amicable divorce, but I don't have that on my phone, unlike my ex (who hates it).

ds 3y ago

Technically speaking, Beeper can keep working for a long time. That is, Until apple starts checking if the client is on a official apple device. This may or may not be feasible for Apple to implement, mostly depending on if they even have the resources/method to know if every device is legitimate or not (they may not- especially for older devices) If they do have a way to enforce 'authentic' devices, the only step after that for beeper to take will be to ask users to purchase the cheapest iphone that still works for imessage and to extract its serial/key/whatever to import into the android client.

sprite 3y ago

They could ask Google to remove it from Play Store also.

EricHolden12 3y ago

You buy a first class ticket for an airline and you get access to the lounge in the airport with fast wifi and snacks. Outside there are people with different tickets screaming to be let in because they know someone in there and it’s not fair that they can’t go in. And Migicovsky is on the side trying to dig a little tunnel into the lounge. iMessage is a perk of using an iPhone. You want to use iMessage? Get an iPhone.

LeeYung1 3y ago

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