14 ms·

Canada has fewer entrepreneurs today than it did 20 years ago

207 points by amichail 3y ago

faeriechangling 3y ago
This line “new businesses are responsible for 'almost all net new job creation in this country’” Is simply bullshit, the public sector is driving a huge slice of job creation in Canada and has for the last 20 years. Now you can argue that’s a bad thing but it is a thing and this “chief economist” is simply wrong on basic facts.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > the public sector is driving a huge slice of job creation in Canada and has for the last 20 years I don't doubt this. But do you have a source?
  - faeriechangling 3y ago
    https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=1410028802 https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=141002... Sept 2023 - Public sector employees: 4,291.7; Private sector employees: 13,293.4; Self-employed: 2,685.1 Sept 2003 - Public sector employees: 2,945.8; Private sector employees: 10,298.9; Self-employed: 2,430.0 Difference - Public sector employees: 1,345.9; Private sector employees: 2994.5; Self-employed: 255.1 % growth - Public sector employees: 45.7%; Private sector employees: 29.1%; Self-employed: 10.5%
- zmgsabst 3y ago
  Can the public sector add net jobs, or were they cancelled by losses of other jobs due to the new tax burden?
  - faeriechangling 3y ago
    I'd say this is possible at least in principle given that communist countries had pretty high levels of employment with growing populations with pretty minimal inputs from the private sector for much of that time. If you're willing to lower your standards for what constitutes a "job" sufficiently the public sector can be a job creation machine.
- peterskillet 3y ago
  Your numbers show the private sector added more than double the number of jobs added to the the public sector in that time period.
faeriechangling 3y ago
One thing I’ll highlight is that public sector growth has outpaced private sector during that whole time, and entrepreneurs indirectly have to pay to prop up public services only to get from a business perspective to get a worse business ecosystem than America in pretty much every way except not having to pay for employee health insurance and lower labour costs. If the idea is that the public sector’s wonderful services are supposed to help the private sector flourish, well, that whole idea doesn’t seem to be working. The other is rents have increased that whole time, who can afford to be an entrepreneur when your lease will eat you alive before you ever get off the ground. If the argument is “aha - but Canadians could start an innovative company that relies on remote work and thus avoid such expensive leases” what is the appeal of starting such a business in Canada compared to starting one in the United States where success is far more likely due to a larger market and more pro-business environment? Finally inequality and monopolization is just much worse than 20 years ago internationally. Why be David fighting Goliath when the deck is stacked against you? I’d be kind of surprised if the trend in the article isn’t happening internationally. The articles suggestion that Canadians just don’t have good enough soft skills to be entrepreneurs is just insulting blaming of non-existent individual deficits that ignores systemic issues.
- geepytee 3y ago
  >public sector growth has outpaced private sector during that whole time Interesting, do you have a source for this? Would love to read more about it
  - motohagiography 3y ago
    This example is for the prior decade, but the difference is so stark over 2003-2013 (22% public sector growth vs. 10% private) that even if the comment was conjecture, it would be a pretty good one. https://www.fraserinstitute.org/article/times-have-changed-public-sector-employment-on-the-rise-in-canada-especially-in-ontario https://www.fraserinstitute.org/article/times-have-changed-p... I'd suggest a more constructive comment might be to find an example source and ask whether it is consistent with the reasoning. These "source?" comments are low effort and degrade the quality of conversation.
tired_and_awake 3y ago
Canada (in particular Vancouver), fix your absurd housing problem and we'll come back.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- voisin 3y ago
  No need for the particular call out to Vancouver. That’s a 2014 story. In 2023, every city in the country has an absurd housing problem. I’ve lived coast to coast over the last five years and seen first hand how it doesn’t matter if you are in Vancouver or Halifax (or much smaller towns far away from either), the pricing has gone parabolic thanks to interest rates being ultra low for two decades and housing stock being artificially constricted, and god damn AirBNB “investors” buying everything. Thankfully we now have a ministry of finance serious about inflation and moving rates high, and provincial and federal governments cracking down on Airbnb.
  - b112 3y ago
    Thankfully we now have a ministry of finance serious about inflation and moving rates high, and provincial and federal governments cracking down on Airbnb. No minister has anything to do with interest rates. Only the Bank of Canada does, and it takes no input or guidance from the government.
    - cmrdporcupine 3y ago
      Unfortunately I get the impression that this current BoC leadership is wayyy too sensitive to public backlash and input. And fear that the loud and problematic proclamations of the official opposition are going to lead to immense pressure to lower rates prematurely.
      - b112 3y ago
        I don't know where this impression comes from, although I do see excess political noise on this front. I am disappointed by this aspect of the OO, but that does not imply the BoC is more sensitive.
pj_mukh 3y ago
“ People in their late 20s to early 40s are the most likely to start businesses, but that demographic is shrinking with Canada's aging population, leaving a smaller pool of candidates as potential founders.” Canada has an ace in the hole here (that America doesn’t) in the form of a relatively generous immigration program. It’s time it leans on immigrants to bolster its entrepreneurship. Immigrants are by definition self-selected risk takers it’s a match made in heaven. However to fix it Canada needs: a) less regulations on work requirements for immigrants (it’s less complicated than America but that’s not saying much) b) better funding environment (I’m not a funder/investor so not qualified to speak to this, but I know it sucks) c) housing, housing and lots of cheap housing especially, in the big cities and college towns where most budding entrepreneurs build the networks required to succeed. Without c) esp Canada is DOA. But that’s a whole other post.
- KRAKRISMOTT 3y ago
  I have friends who moved north and applied for their entrepreneurship visa. The whole program is a pay for play scam where local VCs and incubators either demand money up front to "join" their incubator or give ridiculous equity terms in the hope of cornering a desperate founder who won't or can't immigrate easily to the states. The whole thing is a money making grift designed to enrich the friends of their politicians. https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/immigrate-canada/start-visa.html https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/se... You are going to find very few if any brand name VCs participating in their dog and pony show. https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/immigrate-canada/start-visa/designated-organizations.html https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/se...
  - pj_mukh 3y ago
    Controversial opinion: that program is mostly inconsequential at scale. The real needle driver is the much maligned student visa program. While stuffing students into rando colleges in the far flung regions of the country (“diploma mills”) isn’t great, the mainstay colleges/universities should be encouraged to double/triple their intake. There is an existing workflow that turns students into well-networked, educated individuals empowered to manouever the levers of power/capital. Just lean on that more.
Hammershaft 3y ago
Just tax land! So many productive urban spaces are left as prarking lots & rundown buildings in so many Canadian urban cores as a product of rampant real estate speculation (more accurately, land speculation). https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/your-book-review-progress-and-poverty https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/your-book-review-progress-a... http://www.vacantnewyork.com/ http://www.vacantnewyork.com/
- pj_mukh 3y ago
  Seconded. Great idea.
- Scoundreller 3y ago
  Or just straight up low-density immediately next to transit hubs.
- voisin 3y ago
  Try to develop a parking lot and the locals get up in arms over lost parking and threaten to never go downtown again if it is challenging to find parking. We can’t have nice things so long as everyone gets to have a say in absolutely everything.
ilrwbwrkhv 3y ago
Canadians have a deep attitude problem. There is a sense of smugness at not being the USA. What they don't realize is the good times happened due to geopolitical good fortune and having a ton of natural resources. But eventually the time comes when you would have to make sure that entrepreneurship is respected and encouraged and is the main way of creating societal wealth. Right now old crusted people sitting on real estate as the main source of wealth won't cut it anymore. Also immigration from India for low impact, low wage jobs is a huge problem. I have been saying it for a while now: Canada is the most overrated country out of the developed countries.
- akomtu 3y ago
  "The current King of Canada is Charles III, who has reigned since 8 September 2022." That's what's different between USA and Canada.
  - richbell 3y ago
    Which policies implemented by the royal family in the last ~50 years do you think are responsible?
    - akomtu 3y ago
      The King doesn't need to get his hands dirty in implementing policies: he has prime minister for that. What the king does is he vetoes policies he doesn't like, without explaining his reasons to PM. So I'd reframe your question as "what hasn't been done in the past 50 years?"
      - richbell 3y ago
        I can't tell if you're joking or not. That's not how the Canadian system works.
  - shyn3 3y ago
    Lol you speak English that means England owns Canada. I know you are acting smart and speaking like a jerk but research reality and you will realize the sun still does not set for the British empire which is the Romans. They own America also. Get your self educated and respect the greats.
SashaSirotkin 3y ago
The opportunity cost of starting a business in Canada is too high. People who have the capital to start their own business are more likely to see better returns by investing in real estate which has much lower risk and requires less effort. The federal and provincial governments would need to stop artificially propping up the real estate sector to make entrepreneurship competitive which is unlikely to happen willingly.
- applied_heat 3y ago
  How are the federal and provincial governments propping up the real estate market?
  - SashaSirotkin 3y ago
    Many of the programs to help with housing affordability is making it easier for first-time homebuyers to get enough money for a downpayment. There is tax break for first-time buyers, the ability to borrow money from your own RRSP and most recently the FHSA (First Home Savings Account). Long term this increases home prices by injecting more money into the system.
  - zapdrive 3y ago
    [dead]
steve_adams_86 3y ago
Well. I’ve had a lot of ideas in my adult life that I felt passionate about, but doing business here is remarkably unrewarding. I can do what I enjoy and I’m good at with an American company for 2-3x what I’d realistically earn here working at least as hard on my own business. I’ve consulted for several Canadian tech companies and their finances often seemed remarkably poor. I know some are doing well; I’m more so speaking about “regular people” businesses. Small private companies with staff around 10-20 people. They work really, really hard for their incomes and the rewards really aren’t what you’d expect. This seems true outside of tech as well. My wife works for the federal government on the other hand. She earns much less than I do, yet still dramatically higher than the average for our city and the rest of the country. She also has generous time off, training, an excellent union, interesting work, etc. Why in the world would she start a business? She actually could, too. She’s an awesome hydrographer with cutting-edge skills and knowledge. But she’d have to work herself to the bone if she went private and she’d have to work in wildly different and less comfortable contexts. And for what? 1.5x the income? 2x? After that’s chewed up by taxes, she has traded her family life for a career that barely pays more when you do the quantitative and qualitative maths. Yet I think this is a huge problem. It isn’t really wise to work hard and innovate here, and I think it’s actually harming our workforce and economy quite seriously. Look to many countries and you can quickly point at many past and recent innovations and core competencies. But what do you see when you look at Canada? There’s certainly less, and seemingly less all the time. Our small population is a huge disadvantage here, but we have such immense opportunity for innovation. I do think we innovate in extractive industries. We do a lot of environmental research around our primary industries, and that’s very valuable. Economically though, I don’t know… We aren’t much of a land of opportunity these days, and it doesn’t seem like much is happening to reverse this trend.
- gumballindie 3y ago
  This is true for tech work as well. Pay is higher in east european countries after a certain level of seniority. All in all Canada is noth worth it for the money. Everyone I know from the UK moving to Canada came back running as pay was easily higher. That means businesses can't afford people.
throwawaysleep 3y ago
A lot of this is simply that Canadians do not desire to be rich and prioritize not being poor. That is not aligned with entrepreneurship. Our culture is very poorly suited to it. I know because I am one of those people. For example, I have participated in numerous entrepreneurship accelerator programs, as have my friends. How many of us spent any time on our companies after finishing the accelerators? Zero. I know people who put the winning of 200K on their resume, went to get a corporate job, and just returned the 200K in prize money later, as the purpose of the prize was to be publicly named as winning the prize. This person now works for RBC as a software developer. I won 20K with a friend a few weeks ago for our startup (which was generated just for the competition). We intend to hand the money back at the progress deadline, as he is a new grad and it helped him to get a job. Canadians are also very suspicious of people who do go into business for themselves. American companies will hire entrepreneurs. Going to YC is not a career derailer. In Canada, we would assume that if you started a company that you couldn't find a job. I have been in the (virtual) room as resumes are tossed as the hiring manager assumed "Co-Founder" was just a synonym for unemployed. Anecdotally, Canadians need more money to work for a startup, not less as in the USA. Americans take pay cuts to work for startups in the hope of a giant return. Canadians demand a pay premium to work for a startup, over say RBC. The other issue is that Canadian consumers also do not take risks. We don't try new products or switch suppliers. Consider our high internet costs. There are tons of other options, but even when CBC went out and told people about them, they refused to switch as they didn't want to take the risk. https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1196815939737 https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1196815939737
- Scoundreller 3y ago
  > There are tons of other options, but even when CBC went out and told people about them, they refused to switch as they didn't want to take the risk. That's a 6 year old article. Most alt/independent vendors have basically been gutted or acquired by the incumbent oligopolists. Was with 2 providers (Teksavvy and eBox) that jacked up their prices above what the "flanker" providers by incumbents were charging. There used to be quite a savings, but that's vaporized. Coextro might be worth investigating, I'll admit. Thought they only did own-fibre to bigger buildings.
- 3y ago
Tiktaalik 3y ago
The severe rent seeking behaviors throughout the Canadian economy are making things too burdensome to try entrepreneurship. For a Main St type business, rents, costs and regulations are too high. Rents again come into play for the entrepreneur, being so insanely high that they discourage risk taking and encourage people to stay at their current relatively high paying company. As with so many things in Canada it all comes back to housing lol. We will not have more entrepreneurship until it is dramatically cheaper to live in Canada, and that means lowering one of the biggest costs that people have, which is housing.
- cmrdporcupine 3y ago
  It's been this way since colonial times. It's either rip-it-and-ship-it extraction industries... or "I got there first, so give me $$" rent seeking & monopoly. I don't want to be a part of the US, I hate their culture and politics. But the local elites here benefit too much from having their own little closed market to monopolize and control.
  - monero-xmr 3y ago
    This comment, and the whole thread really, is such a mind fuck for me - someone who lives in a rich left-wing American city. Canada is idolized and worshipped here as the paragon of lifestyle - the perfect balance of capitalism, civil discourse, and welfare state support (in addition to Norway). I literally have friends making comfortable $500k+ family incomes musing about how much better it would be to move to Canada. The grass is always greener!
    - cmrdporcupine 3y ago
      Yea, American liberals don't really get Canada -- even when they come here, my friends from the US... they wear rose tinted glasses. Most of it is fantasy. Canada's social service programmes are really not great when compared to European social democracies; welfare and disability payments are actually quite low, and we have pretty bad homelessness in our major cities. Canada is no Scandinavian social democracy. It's really just a fusion of aspects of both the UK and the US. Universal healthcare is good but it's been underfunded for decades, slowly coming apart, and inconsistent across the country. Public education is definitely in a better state than the US, though. And I'd argue our higher education / university system is superior in both cost and quality. So far. Culturally, Canada might be in a better state. The culture wars not as pronounced (depending on where you are). Abortion rights etc. mostly a given. Gay marriage and rights pretty much unassailable at this point. Legal cannabis, etc. etc. But in terms of bread and butter supports for regular working people, it's not that great. Though of course, again, the health care thing is a big caveat. US healthcare is great if you're upper middle class, wayyyyy better than anything you'd get here. But the average working class person is definitely better off in Canada compared to the US, on the healthcare front. Anyways, housing prices here are way worse (relative to earning potential) than any American city other than I guess Manhattan, at this point. People in the Bay Area complain, but they really have nothing on the GTA or Vancouver lower mainland.
zaptheimpaler 3y ago
This article itself is a great case study. The implicit structure of this article is that Lynn got fired and became an entrepreneur because he was forced into it. They never asked him anything about what it would take to get more entrepreneurs or make his life as an entrepreneur easier. Instead they asked 4 professors of entrepreneurship & govt. ministers who probably weren't entrepreneurs. These people mentioned twice that one of the reasons for low entrepreneurship is because unemployment is too low and jobs pay too well... the whole push for this is coming from callous bureaucrats who've never been anywhere close to entrepreneurship who apparently believe its so bad that the only reason someone would do it is if they have no other options.. What a joke.. it's hard to believe this level of stupidity , it might just be malice (a pretext to justify raising interest rates and increase unemployment)
- onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago
  Especially when wages in Canada for skilled labor are horrendous.
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  >ell... the whole push for this is coming from callous bureaucrats who've never been anywhere close to entrepreneurship who apparently believe its so bad that the only reason someone would do it is if they have no other options.. In all fairness, isn't that a legitimate reason? If you could make a very comfy life and retire early I think many would be entrepreneurs would take the easy way out. Of course, some want the big cash out or strongly believe in their mission, but many people are there for the money. Of course, I can't verify if wages in Canada are indeed "too well. Seems like an outdated statement if the economy up there is anything close to the US's. Legitimate reason with incorrect data is simply a misguided take.
  - deanCommie 3y ago
    It's definitely not the case. Canada has a cost of living crisis, and an entire generation has been priced out of the possibility of owning a home. One can survive better than in the US at the extremely low end, and being sick won't kill or bankrupt you. But nobody is living a "comfy" life without busting and hustling.
pbj1968 3y ago
They all move to America, take high paying jobs, and complain about everything. At least the ones I’ve encountered.
martin_drapeau 3y ago
Canadian tech startup entrepreneur here. Coziness is the biggest hurdle. As a programmer, I can make a really good salary at a tech giant. Even after 4 years of grinding and finally achieving product market fit and growth, my wife doesn't understand why I'm doing a startup. Life could be so much easier working for Google. Heck everyone has a job here. The 2/1,000 missing entrepreneurs don't have an incentive to start. I'm from Ottawa and all my friends work for the federal government with big fat pensions and doing boring work (my perspective mind you). But they have great family lives, lots of vacation and great outside of work experiences. Why the hell would they jump into entrepreneurship? Worst of all, the government workforce is growing faster than that of the private sector! What worries me most is the future - a country cannot get wealthier nor innovate without entrepreneurs. It is s a real concern indeed.
- throwawaysleep 3y ago
  Canada is very much a "let someone else do it" kind of place. You see that in politics, you see that in business, you see that in government. A lot of that though is simply not wanting to be rich. Americans truly want lambo type wealth. I can't say I have met someone born here who wanted that. We are content to own a house and go to Mexico.
  - billy99k 3y ago
    I frequently travel to Toronto and the number of people driving Teslas there has increased 10X in the last 5 years. This could be a result of new Chinese money though and not native Canadians.
    - dleslie 3y ago
      Many Canadians became wealthy via the housing market. Effectively drawing wealth from the mortgaged future potential income of Canada's young first time home buyers. Or, just running STRs in the big cities.
      - Scoundreller 3y ago
voisin 3y ago
I would suggest that 20 years ago life was far more affordable for the average person, such that it was more conducive to risk taking for personal gain. Today, everything is so damn expensive (housing being the most obvious, but really everything) that taking a few years out of your life to try to start a business feels like a massively riskier proposition in that those are years you’d otherwise be making money to ideally save for a house down payment which keeps getting farther and farther away even while working (in some areas of the GTA, house prices were increasing on average by $80k/month).
martin_drapeau 3y ago
I run a Canadian tech startup here. Funding to get going is of course an issue. The BDC (referenced in this article) is just another bank and have zero means to help a SaaS getting started. We turned to the US to get funding (besides our own money). TinySeed specializes in boostrapped B2B SaaS. They have an incubator program that is really good and got us going. We're at the point of getting a line of credit and again have to deal with Canadian banks. Again the BDC cannot help more than any other bank. We also looked at government tech subsidies and grants. Honestly, there is so much paperwork that takes time away from gaining customers and growing the business. We did not pursue. Maybe when you reach 20+ staff these things will come to help you. Especially if you have someone to manage it. But when you get started, you're on your own.
- cmrdporcupine 3y ago
  Back when I worked at a Canadian startup and had to do SRED paperwork I got the vibe that it was more about companies that could afford to hire SRED consultants than it was actual research and dev. Heard stories about web dev / media shops milking SRED, while I saw people doing actual foundational engineering struggle (nor could they waste the time filling in the paperwork). This was over a decade ago. Did not come away with a positive impression of the tech startup scene in Canada. Yours and other comments since have only fed that.
  - somerandomqaguy 3y ago
    ... I want to disagree with this, but it lines up with my own experience. My work was being presented for similar grants with very flimsy justifications. Not pure web work but it wasn't exactly foundational research either.
    - e-brake 3y ago
      I too have seen this as a past entrepreneur in Canada. A lot of accountants are in on misrepresenting SR&ED tax credit applications and will attempt to find the "research" in regular IT work. They will even do the technical writing and filing work for free, while taking a commission of the take when the tax credits roll in (free money). There is a whole segment of startups propped up by SR&ED. I've seen many doing innovative work with a sound business plan, using that money to get to profitability, and it's great they were able to get funding, but a lot of others milked the system fraudulently, using SR&ED consultants to continue to exist when they should have failed.
pokstad 3y ago
Funny timing on this article. I just watched the BlackBerry drama about Waterloo based Research In Motion. Pretty good movie.
shyn3 3y ago
Canada is a communist country how can we have entrepreneurs..
fallingfrog 3y ago
Don’t you need hundreds of thousands of dollars to become an entrepreneur? Or millions? I mean buying a place to do business alone is crazy, real estate is so expensive. I would start with that if I was wondering why people aren’t starting businesses. Is the money there? You can’t educate yourself into three hundred thousand dollars. Seems like the first obvious place to look.
- logicchains 3y ago
  >Don’t you need hundreds of thousands of dollars to become an entrepreneur No, many entrepreneurs borrow money to start businesses. Traditionally that was a function of banks, lending to small businesses. Maybe not in Canada.
- randomdata 3y ago
  BDC from the article is a bank – owned by the government of Canada that exclusively lends to entrepreneurs. They have the money needed for someone to become an entrepreneur. What is missing is people with a vision to use that money. The idea they are presenting, right or wrong[1], is that educating yourself can produce the missing vision. [1] Probably wrong as Canada is considered, according to the OECD, the most educated nation in the world.
dade_ 3y ago
These explanations are all very interesting, but the reality is that any good business person must decide when to invest. The conditions have been far from favourable for years in Canada. Real estate is simply too expensive. Sure commercial real estate for the plant or office or whatever facility you need is outrageously expensive, but then, when you wanted to hire somebody or try, they need to pay rent or a mortgage. People aren’t demanding outrageous wages because they suddenly think they’re worth it. They just know how expensive it is to pay the bills and groceries. Government policy, both the conservatives and the liberals, are very cosy to large corporations. Most of their announcements, that supposedly help small businesses are simply far out of reach due to requirements for revenue or number of employees, and is essentially corporate welfare. The BDC and EDC are a joke, both crown corporations run by people very disconnected from any sort of reality. Of course it was driven by interest rates, but the insidious thing about interest rate is it allows zombie corporations. These organizations that should’ve gone out of business being acquired or shut down, but because of their size and revenue were able to continue to borrow more and more and more money at extremely low interest rates. of course it’s coming to an end now as financial reality hits. Many of these companies are forced to cut, but they were actually hopelessly dysfunctional so over time though finally either just be bought or go to business. all of this to say, the last 20 years has been a terrible time to start a business in Canada but a lot of markers are indicating things could be getting better soon. While it may be good for somebody starting a business isn’t good for necessarily the average person. anyway, the thing I find absolutely laughable is that we need more education for entrepreneurs. The funniest thing I’ve read all year. there is no education that will make someone an entrepreneur, but someone may learn enough to be scarred out of taking the plunge. finally, the idea that there’s a single definition of Canadians is completely stupid and misinformed. culture varies dramatically from coast to coast and from the south to the north. if someone thinks that nobody wants to work, or nobody wants to make money, it speaks about the people that they associate with not the country they live in. I think that is true most anywhere.
- cmrdporcupine 3y ago
  Yours is the most reasoned comment here, thank you. And you're right to point the finger at both major parties. While I agree that there's no single definition of Canadian, I do think there's a particular Canadian sickness that seems to think that policy that benefits and protects existing established interests is good policy. Example: local rural zoning laws here in Hamilton area were being revisited some years ago. I live on a small farm so went to the sessions and read the documents, etc. And I have an interest in the wine industry, so noticed that in the bylaws they went out of their way to explicitly forbid winery development in any area but an area east of the city (towards Niagara.) Why? When I asked the zoning officer at a public meeting, she just stared at me blankly: "Because that's where the wineries already are." She wasn't corrupt. She wasn't stupid. She didn't care about the issue. But the thought that you might want to craft regulation in such a way to leave things open for new entrants and possibilities was ... confusing to her. But why would you close off a whole agricultural area to new developments like that? I don't get the mindset, but I see it all the time. Maybe because we're so used to being squashed by the US that we feel we have to protect the successes that we have? Bizarrely though we have very intense internal protectionism. I see examples of this all over the place. From Alberta's recent moves against the burgeoning renewable energy sector, to Ontario wine regulations, to the way the telecomms sector is run nationally, to the way grants and incubators etc are set up.
adamiscool8 3y ago
Canada is captured by real estate investors, bureaucrats, and the Century Initiative [0]. So rather than developing national infrastructure and tier 2/3 markets across this giant landmass (like China) to create affordable places to incubate entrepreneurship, they ramp up immigration into "mega-regions" driving up living costs, making everyone risk averse and entrepreneurship untenable. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Century_Initiative https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Century_Initiative
WalterBright 3y ago
> would-be entrepreneurs face a barrage of discouraging factors, such as labour shortages, inflation, technological change and the increasing domination of large companies. More likely ever-increasing taxes, mandates, lawsuits and crushing regulations.
kahnclusions 3y ago
Difficult and complicated to get funding, insanely high rent, Canadian banks and telcos are stuck in the Stone Age, and the government bureaucracy is impotent and moves at a snail’s pace. Or we move to America and earn twice as much money.
dgudkov 3y ago
I know the cost of living is now a standard excuse for everything unfortunate in Canada, but I have an untypical view on this topic: Canadians strike me as a very undemanding nation. I mean, they are ready to go through whatever inconvenience a big corp may force them into, and still be fine about it. To Canadians, it's just the way things are, inevitable evil. At the same time, an entrepreneur frequently starts by targeting a market niche and offering better quality or better service or a novel way of doing things. However, a market niche assumes that there are consumers with a niche demand. But if consumers are undemanding and are OK with keeping paying for something subpar, this leaves us with not so many market niches and thus opportunities. At the same time, doing business is great in Canada. The tax system is simple (just 3 taxes). Reduced tax rates for small businesses. Registering a business can be done online for a small fee. The banks are OK. Abundance of decent business-related services - accountants, designers, etc. It's relatively easy to sell to the government. Finding a good lawyer is a tough problem, though. But I suspect it's a problem everywhere. PS. I run a technology company based in Canada.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- muunbo 3y ago
  I totally agree with the “undemanding Canadians” view…so true! I moved here 12 years ago from Dubai and the demands/standards of business and service are way lower here. Pros are that it’s laid back and chill, cons are that we are unlikely to lead and innovate because we are satisfied with the status quo
  - amrocha 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - fastball 3y ago
      Whoa where did this come from?
kazinator 3y ago
> What else might help? I'd mention something, but I see you've already invited a giant white elephant, which has its trunk wound around the handle of an "affordable housing" sign.
thomassmith65 3y ago
The grand theories in this thread about Canada's national character, its housing prices, its tax rates, etc etc. The descent of Canada's tech industry has moved in lockstep with the ascent of the internet, and good internet access depends on good telecom companies, and Canada has none. Canada's telecom monopoly stabbed the country's future to death with a rusty awl.
FpUser 3y ago
This article is such a load of BS (bar couple of sound points). I particularly love parts where they imply that putting people into hardship (pay less and fire mor) is a potential solution. Those fuckers should just lead by the example rather than getting salaries for spreading lies. Start your own successful business and then you can talk.
langsoul-com 3y ago
> The Crown corporation says the decline puts the economy in danger, and it worked with researchers from the Université de Montréal to analyze the problem and what's causing it, and to consider solutions. Its recommendation: Some of the difficulties of entrepreneurship can be overcome by helping business owners develop "soft skills," such as grit, marketing and how to interact with people I wonder if they're self aware about how dumb their suggestions sound. If all it took was some sort skills, then everyone would be starting businesses left and right. Or because they're paid to say something. And that needs to be easily and individually actionable.
j7ake 3y ago
Honestly I think it’s not canada vs usa, but Bay Area, New York, and Boston vs everywhere else in the world. These three regions in usa are doing almost all the innovation in the western world currently. Why? Because it’s where ambitious, hungry people go to make their mark in their world. Success breeds success and usa treats their successful better than any other western country.
EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 3y ago
Apparently it's a Netherlands decease, as Canada's main business is natural resources, and it makes little sense to invest in other things.
chx 3y ago
> and found that the country has 100,000 fewer entrepreneurs than it did 20 years ago — despite the fact that the population has grown by more than 10 million over the same period. Canada is a bit below 39M people. In 2003 it was above 31M. The growth is decidedly less than 10M. But yes, support for entrepreneurs is nonexistent, my little company (not even reaching 1M CAD a year in revenue) is controlled by the same rules on paper as SNC-Lavalin (except of course if they break the rules the prime minister fires the minister of justice to avoid prosecution but if I am late with a report a few days I get fined). Many European countries have simple flat taxes with minimal administration.
teunispeters 3y ago
I'll sum from what I've seen. 1. the rents are too damned high. 2. Bureaucracy has barriers for everyone except monopolies, and prefers monopolies as it's less groups to negotiate with. (A significant amount of said bureaucracy is private industry, but yes, most public qualifies too). 3. Internet access is controlled by a small group of monopolies who manage to (largely) keep access costs above anywhere else in the world, largely - and definitely higher than most of the USA. 4. Shipping is largely controlled by either US monopolies that aren't reliable, safe or consistent, or Canada Post who's been eroded repeatedly by Canadian Conservatives favouring their US friends. 5. US protectionism results in some businesses - especially supplies - either being shut down or bought up and moved US-side or the like. This one goes back a long ways, but Conservatives provincially and federally have escalated it every chance they have. In short - if your business idea requires a storefront, you're likely paying 2-10x housing rent (or more), and your home will be 2-10x what it was renting for 1-3 years ago. Business rents go up arbitrarily without any ability to negotiate (as the people renting out control it). Household rent goes up arbitrarily, largely due to same. While I've not seen direct proof, there are signs most real estate is either owned by foreign (eg USA based or other) for (artificially inflated) investment, tax evaders or money launderers. Canadian real estate isn't worth the price attached almost anywhere - especially when one qualifies that outside of some specific areas, it's colder than most other places in the world. At the end of the day it's still possible, but if I could find a path to get a simple product to market without being swamped by amazon (and its cartels of forgers and thieves - most third party) or similar across other markets ... I would have long ago. There's one more cost of entry - NIMBYism and city zoning. This is a subtle one - it means one has a lot of barriers against opening a business out of a home unless strictly mail order. This was established a long time ago...
Joel_Mckay 3y ago
Canada has all the issues and none of the advantages of the US market 10 times its size. Real-estate securitization has DoS’d key class 5 to 7 zones. This means empty industrial buildings stay empty, as the tax-deductions on inflated-valuations are also used to underwrite more debt... worth more than any lease sucker deal. Try to convince a competent CEO a small $32k/month triple-net lease isn’t going to bleed an inexperienced company into receivership eventually. Pick just about any US state, hire 30 locals, and making a profit gets so much easier. The US financial ecosystem is generally far more harmonious even to type C corporations. As an outsider in unregulated markets, one could see Corporate sponsored prostitution, targeted bribery, and blackmail. You just aren't important enough if you don't know these facts yet. Canada has some of the silliest smart people in the world =)
randomdata 3y ago
> For its report, BDC defined an entrepreneur as a self-employed worker who hires employees to support their venture. Perhaps what has actually changed in the last 20 years is that, thanks to technical advancement, a need for employees has declined – not that fewer people are taking on business operational risk as entrepreneur is more typically defined? For example, I operate three different businesses in Canada, but only one of them hires employees.
anovikov 3y ago
Maybe it's simply about concentration? Fewer entrepreneurs but they are bigger - because in digital economy, things scale better, thus there are fewer, bigger winners.
Jemm 3y ago
Competent and "cultural fit" people in Canada are not only drawn to the US by higher wages, but they are actively pushed out of Canada by a system that does not value them.
newsclues 3y ago
I was in a city grant committee in a community in Canada. Most of the committee was happy to dole out funding for arts projects. I was the only one that advocated for funding an entrepreneur program, and reasoning that funding future entrepreneurs will create the funding for art’s grant was lost on the progressives.
xedrac 3y ago
Maybe I've just become more aware of the origins of the products I buy, but I have encountered a lot of Canadian things lately: Apollo electric scooter, Fluance sound system, 1Password service, Zealios keyboard switches, etc... I don't go out of my way to buy Canadian made things, it just seems like they are everywhere.
naveen99 3y ago
Maybe a sign of progress. Wealthier economies have fewer self employed people than poorer economies.
aussiegreenie 3y ago
I have to ask the question "What is an entreneur?" How do people define it? Are young "sneakerheads" who collect and trade shoes "entrenprenuers"

207 points by amichail 3y ago

This line “new businesses are responsible for 'almost all net new job creation in this country’” Is simply bullshit, the public sector is driving a huge slice of job creation in Canada and has for the last 20 years. Now you can argue that’s a bad thing but it is a thing and this “chief economist” is simply wrong on basic facts.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> the public sector is driving a huge slice of job creation in Canada and has for the last 20 years I don't doubt this. But do you have a source?
- faeriechangling 3y ago
  https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=1410028802 https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=141002... Sept 2023 - Public sector employees: 4,291.7; Private sector employees: 13,293.4; Self-employed: 2,685.1 Sept 2003 - Public sector employees: 2,945.8; Private sector employees: 10,298.9; Self-employed: 2,430.0 Difference - Public sector employees: 1,345.9; Private sector employees: 2994.5; Self-employed: 255.1 % growth - Public sector employees: 45.7%; Private sector employees: 29.1%; Self-employed: 10.5%
zmgsabst 3y ago
Can the public sector add net jobs, or were they cancelled by losses of other jobs due to the new tax burden?
- faeriechangling 3y ago
  I'd say this is possible at least in principle given that communist countries had pretty high levels of employment with growing populations with pretty minimal inputs from the private sector for much of that time. If you're willing to lower your standards for what constitutes a "job" sufficiently the public sector can be a job creation machine.
peterskillet 3y ago
Your numbers show the private sector added more than double the number of jobs added to the the public sector in that time period.

faeriechangling 3y ago

One thing I’ll highlight is that public sector growth has outpaced private sector during that whole time, and entrepreneurs indirectly have to pay to prop up public services only to get from a business perspective to get a worse business ecosystem than America in pretty much every way except not having to pay for employee health insurance and lower labour costs. If the idea is that the public sector’s wonderful services are supposed to help the private sector flourish, well, that whole idea doesn’t seem to be working. The other is rents have increased that whole time, who can afford to be an entrepreneur when your lease will eat you alive before you ever get off the ground. If the argument is “aha - but Canadians could start an innovative company that relies on remote work and thus avoid such expensive leases” what is the appeal of starting such a business in Canada compared to starting one in the United States where success is far more likely due to a larger market and more pro-business environment? Finally inequality and monopolization is just much worse than 20 years ago internationally. Why be David fighting Goliath when the deck is stacked against you? I’d be kind of surprised if the trend in the article isn’t happening internationally. The articles suggestion that Canadians just don’t have good enough soft skills to be entrepreneurs is just insulting blaming of non-existent individual deficits that ignores systemic issues.

geepytee 3y ago
>public sector growth has outpaced private sector during that whole time Interesting, do you have a source for this? Would love to read more about it
- motohagiography 3y ago
  This example is for the prior decade, but the difference is so stark over 2003-2013 (22% public sector growth vs. 10% private) that even if the comment was conjecture, it would be a pretty good one. https://www.fraserinstitute.org/article/times-have-changed-public-sector-employment-on-the-rise-in-canada-especially-in-ontario https://www.fraserinstitute.org/article/times-have-changed-p... I'd suggest a more constructive comment might be to find an example source and ask whether it is consistent with the reasoning. These "source?" comments are low effort and degrade the quality of conversation.

tired_and_awake 3y ago

Canada (in particular Vancouver), fix your absurd housing problem and we'll come back.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
voisin 3y ago
No need for the particular call out to Vancouver. That’s a 2014 story. In 2023, every city in the country has an absurd housing problem. I’ve lived coast to coast over the last five years and seen first hand how it doesn’t matter if you are in Vancouver or Halifax (or much smaller towns far away from either), the pricing has gone parabolic thanks to interest rates being ultra low for two decades and housing stock being artificially constricted, and god damn AirBNB “investors” buying everything. Thankfully we now have a ministry of finance serious about inflation and moving rates high, and provincial and federal governments cracking down on Airbnb.
- b112 3y ago
  Thankfully we now have a ministry of finance serious about inflation and moving rates high, and provincial and federal governments cracking down on Airbnb. No minister has anything to do with interest rates. Only the Bank of Canada does, and it takes no input or guidance from the government.
  - cmrdporcupine 3y ago
    Unfortunately I get the impression that this current BoC leadership is wayyy too sensitive to public backlash and input. And fear that the loud and problematic proclamations of the official opposition are going to lead to immense pressure to lower rates prematurely.
    - b112 3y ago
      I don't know where this impression comes from, although I do see excess political noise on this front. I am disappointed by this aspect of the OO, but that does not imply the BoC is more sensitive.

pj_mukh 3y ago

“ People in their late 20s to early 40s are the most likely to start businesses, but that demographic is shrinking with Canada's aging population, leaving a smaller pool of candidates as potential founders.” Canada has an ace in the hole here (that America doesn’t) in the form of a relatively generous immigration program. It’s time it leans on immigrants to bolster its entrepreneurship. Immigrants are by definition self-selected risk takers it’s a match made in heaven. However to fix it Canada needs: a) less regulations on work requirements for immigrants (it’s less complicated than America but that’s not saying much) b) better funding environment (I’m not a funder/investor so not qualified to speak to this, but I know it sucks) c) housing, housing and lots of cheap housing especially, in the big cities and college towns where most budding entrepreneurs build the networks required to succeed. Without c) esp Canada is DOA. But that’s a whole other post.

KRAKRISMOTT 3y ago
I have friends who moved north and applied for their entrepreneurship visa. The whole program is a pay for play scam where local VCs and incubators either demand money up front to "join" their incubator or give ridiculous equity terms in the hope of cornering a desperate founder who won't or can't immigrate easily to the states. The whole thing is a money making grift designed to enrich the friends of their politicians. https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/immigrate-canada/start-visa.html https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/se... You are going to find very few if any brand name VCs participating in their dog and pony show. https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/immigrate-canada/start-visa/designated-organizations.html https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/se...
- pj_mukh 3y ago
  Controversial opinion: that program is mostly inconsequential at scale. The real needle driver is the much maligned student visa program. While stuffing students into rando colleges in the far flung regions of the country (“diploma mills”) isn’t great, the mainstay colleges/universities should be encouraged to double/triple their intake. There is an existing workflow that turns students into well-networked, educated individuals empowered to manouever the levers of power/capital. Just lean on that more.

Hammershaft 3y ago

Just tax land! So many productive urban spaces are left as prarking lots & rundown buildings in so many Canadian urban cores as a product of rampant real estate speculation (more accurately, land speculation). https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/your-book-review-progress-and-poverty https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/your-book-review-progress-a... http://www.vacantnewyork.com/ http://www.vacantnewyork.com/

pj_mukh 3y ago
Seconded. Great idea.
Scoundreller 3y ago
Or just straight up low-density immediately next to transit hubs.
voisin 3y ago
Try to develop a parking lot and the locals get up in arms over lost parking and threaten to never go downtown again if it is challenging to find parking. We can’t have nice things so long as everyone gets to have a say in absolutely everything.

ilrwbwrkhv 3y ago

Canadians have a deep attitude problem. There is a sense of smugness at not being the USA. What they don't realize is the good times happened due to geopolitical good fortune and having a ton of natural resources. But eventually the time comes when you would have to make sure that entrepreneurship is respected and encouraged and is the main way of creating societal wealth. Right now old crusted people sitting on real estate as the main source of wealth won't cut it anymore. Also immigration from India for low impact, low wage jobs is a huge problem. I have been saying it for a while now: Canada is the most overrated country out of the developed countries.

akomtu 3y ago
"The current King of Canada is Charles III, who has reigned since 8 September 2022." That's what's different between USA and Canada.
- richbell 3y ago
  Which policies implemented by the royal family in the last ~50 years do you think are responsible?
  - akomtu 3y ago
    The King doesn't need to get his hands dirty in implementing policies: he has prime minister for that. What the king does is he vetoes policies he doesn't like, without explaining his reasons to PM. So I'd reframe your question as "what hasn't been done in the past 50 years?"
    - richbell 3y ago
      I can't tell if you're joking or not. That's not how the Canadian system works.
- shyn3 3y ago
  Lol you speak English that means England owns Canada. I know you are acting smart and speaking like a jerk but research reality and you will realize the sun still does not set for the British empire which is the Romans. They own America also. Get your self educated and respect the greats.

SashaSirotkin 3y ago

The opportunity cost of starting a business in Canada is too high. People who have the capital to start their own business are more likely to see better returns by investing in real estate which has much lower risk and requires less effort. The federal and provincial governments would need to stop artificially propping up the real estate sector to make entrepreneurship competitive which is unlikely to happen willingly.

applied_heat 3y ago
How are the federal and provincial governments propping up the real estate market?
- SashaSirotkin 3y ago
  Many of the programs to help with housing affordability is making it easier for first-time homebuyers to get enough money for a downpayment. There is tax break for first-time buyers, the ability to borrow money from your own RRSP and most recently the FHSA (First Home Savings Account). Long term this increases home prices by injecting more money into the system.
- zapdrive 3y ago
  [dead]

steve_adams_86 3y ago

Well. I’ve had a lot of ideas in my adult life that I felt passionate about, but doing business here is remarkably unrewarding. I can do what I enjoy and I’m good at with an American company for 2-3x what I’d realistically earn here working at least as hard on my own business. I’ve consulted for several Canadian tech companies and their finances often seemed remarkably poor. I know some are doing well; I’m more so speaking about “regular people” businesses. Small private companies with staff around 10-20 people. They work really, really hard for their incomes and the rewards really aren’t what you’d expect. This seems true outside of tech as well. My wife works for the federal government on the other hand. She earns much less than I do, yet still dramatically higher than the average for our city and the rest of the country. She also has generous time off, training, an excellent union, interesting work, etc. Why in the world would she start a business? She actually could, too. She’s an awesome hydrographer with cutting-edge skills and knowledge. But she’d have to work herself to the bone if she went private and she’d have to work in wildly different and less comfortable contexts. And for what? 1.5x the income? 2x? After that’s chewed up by taxes, she has traded her family life for a career that barely pays more when you do the quantitative and qualitative maths. Yet I think this is a huge problem. It isn’t really wise to work hard and innovate here, and I think it’s actually harming our workforce and economy quite seriously. Look to many countries and you can quickly point at many past and recent innovations and core competencies. But what do you see when you look at Canada? There’s certainly less, and seemingly less all the time. Our small population is a huge disadvantage here, but we have such immense opportunity for innovation. I do think we innovate in extractive industries. We do a lot of environmental research around our primary industries, and that’s very valuable. Economically though, I don’t know… We aren’t much of a land of opportunity these days, and it doesn’t seem like much is happening to reverse this trend.

gumballindie 3y ago
This is true for tech work as well. Pay is higher in east european countries after a certain level of seniority. All in all Canada is noth worth it for the money. Everyone I know from the UK moving to Canada came back running as pay was easily higher. That means businesses can't afford people.

throwawaysleep 3y ago

A lot of this is simply that Canadians do not desire to be rich and prioritize not being poor. That is not aligned with entrepreneurship. Our culture is very poorly suited to it. I know because I am one of those people. For example, I have participated in numerous entrepreneurship accelerator programs, as have my friends. How many of us spent any time on our companies after finishing the accelerators? Zero. I know people who put the winning of 200K on their resume, went to get a corporate job, and just returned the 200K in prize money later, as the purpose of the prize was to be publicly named as winning the prize. This person now works for RBC as a software developer. I won 20K with a friend a few weeks ago for our startup (which was generated just for the competition). We intend to hand the money back at the progress deadline, as he is a new grad and it helped him to get a job. Canadians are also very suspicious of people who do go into business for themselves. American companies will hire entrepreneurs. Going to YC is not a career derailer. In Canada, we would assume that if you started a company that you couldn't find a job. I have been in the (virtual) room as resumes are tossed as the hiring manager assumed "Co-Founder" was just a synonym for unemployed. Anecdotally, Canadians need more money to work for a startup, not less as in the USA. Americans take pay cuts to work for startups in the hope of a giant return. Canadians demand a pay premium to work for a startup, over say RBC. The other issue is that Canadian consumers also do not take risks. We don't try new products or switch suppliers. Consider our high internet costs. There are tons of other options, but even when CBC went out and told people about them, they refused to switch as they didn't want to take the risk. https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1196815939737 https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1196815939737

Scoundreller 3y ago
> There are tons of other options, but even when CBC went out and told people about them, they refused to switch as they didn't want to take the risk. That's a 6 year old article. Most alt/independent vendors have basically been gutted or acquired by the incumbent oligopolists. Was with 2 providers (Teksavvy and eBox) that jacked up their prices above what the "flanker" providers by incumbents were charging. There used to be quite a savings, but that's vaporized. Coextro might be worth investigating, I'll admit. Thought they only did own-fibre to bigger buildings.
3y ago

Tiktaalik 3y ago

The severe rent seeking behaviors throughout the Canadian economy are making things too burdensome to try entrepreneurship. For a Main St type business, rents, costs and regulations are too high. Rents again come into play for the entrepreneur, being so insanely high that they discourage risk taking and encourage people to stay at their current relatively high paying company. As with so many things in Canada it all comes back to housing lol. We will not have more entrepreneurship until it is dramatically cheaper to live in Canada, and that means lowering one of the biggest costs that people have, which is housing.

cmrdporcupine 3y ago
It's been this way since colonial times. It's either rip-it-and-ship-it extraction industries... or "I got there first, so give me $$" rent seeking & monopoly. I don't want to be a part of the US, I hate their culture and politics. But the local elites here benefit too much from having their own little closed market to monopolize and control.
- monero-xmr 3y ago
  This comment, and the whole thread really, is such a mind fuck for me - someone who lives in a rich left-wing American city. Canada is idolized and worshipped here as the paragon of lifestyle - the perfect balance of capitalism, civil discourse, and welfare state support (in addition to Norway). I literally have friends making comfortable $500k+ family incomes musing about how much better it would be to move to Canada. The grass is always greener!
  - cmrdporcupine 3y ago
    Yea, American liberals don't really get Canada -- even when they come here, my friends from the US... they wear rose tinted glasses. Most of it is fantasy. Canada's social service programmes are really not great when compared to European social democracies; welfare and disability payments are actually quite low, and we have pretty bad homelessness in our major cities. Canada is no Scandinavian social democracy. It's really just a fusion of aspects of both the UK and the US. Universal healthcare is good but it's been underfunded for decades, slowly coming apart, and inconsistent across the country. Public education is definitely in a better state than the US, though. And I'd argue our higher education / university system is superior in both cost and quality. So far. Culturally, Canada might be in a better state. The culture wars not as pronounced (depending on where you are). Abortion rights etc. mostly a given. Gay marriage and rights pretty much unassailable at this point. Legal cannabis, etc. etc. But in terms of bread and butter supports for regular working people, it's not that great. Though of course, again, the health care thing is a big caveat. US healthcare is great if you're upper middle class, wayyyyy better than anything you'd get here. But the average working class person is definitely better off in Canada compared to the US, on the healthcare front. Anyways, housing prices here are way worse (relative to earning potential) than any American city other than I guess Manhattan, at this point. People in the Bay Area complain, but they really have nothing on the GTA or Vancouver lower mainland.

zaptheimpaler 3y ago

This article itself is a great case study. The implicit structure of this article is that Lynn got fired and became an entrepreneur because he was forced into it. They never asked him anything about what it would take to get more entrepreneurs or make his life as an entrepreneur easier. Instead they asked 4 professors of entrepreneurship & govt. ministers who probably weren't entrepreneurs. These people mentioned twice that one of the reasons for low entrepreneurship is because unemployment is too low and jobs pay too well... the whole push for this is coming from callous bureaucrats who've never been anywhere close to entrepreneurship who apparently believe its so bad that the only reason someone would do it is if they have no other options.. What a joke.. it's hard to believe this level of stupidity , it might just be malice (a pretext to justify raising interest rates and increase unemployment)

onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago
Especially when wages in Canada for skilled labor are horrendous.
johnnyanmac 3y ago
>ell... the whole push for this is coming from callous bureaucrats who've never been anywhere close to entrepreneurship who apparently believe its so bad that the only reason someone would do it is if they have no other options.. In all fairness, isn't that a legitimate reason? If you could make a very comfy life and retire early I think many would be entrepreneurs would take the easy way out. Of course, some want the big cash out or strongly believe in their mission, but many people are there for the money. Of course, I can't verify if wages in Canada are indeed "too well. Seems like an outdated statement if the economy up there is anything close to the US's. Legitimate reason with incorrect data is simply a misguided take.
- deanCommie 3y ago
  It's definitely not the case. Canada has a cost of living crisis, and an entire generation has been priced out of the possibility of owning a home. One can survive better than in the US at the extremely low end, and being sick won't kill or bankrupt you. But nobody is living a "comfy" life without busting and hustling.

pbj1968 3y ago

They all move to America, take high paying jobs, and complain about everything. At least the ones I’ve encountered.

martin_drapeau 3y ago

Canadian tech startup entrepreneur here. Coziness is the biggest hurdle. As a programmer, I can make a really good salary at a tech giant. Even after 4 years of grinding and finally achieving product market fit and growth, my wife doesn't understand why I'm doing a startup. Life could be so much easier working for Google. Heck everyone has a job here. The 2/1,000 missing entrepreneurs don't have an incentive to start. I'm from Ottawa and all my friends work for the federal government with big fat pensions and doing boring work (my perspective mind you). But they have great family lives, lots of vacation and great outside of work experiences. Why the hell would they jump into entrepreneurship? Worst of all, the government workforce is growing faster than that of the private sector! What worries me most is the future - a country cannot get wealthier nor innovate without entrepreneurs. It is s a real concern indeed.

throwawaysleep 3y ago
Canada is very much a "let someone else do it" kind of place. You see that in politics, you see that in business, you see that in government. A lot of that though is simply not wanting to be rich. Americans truly want lambo type wealth. I can't say I have met someone born here who wanted that. We are content to own a house and go to Mexico.
- billy99k 3y ago
  I frequently travel to Toronto and the number of people driving Teslas there has increased 10X in the last 5 years. This could be a result of new Chinese money though and not native Canadians.
  - dleslie 3y ago
    Many Canadians became wealthy via the housing market. Effectively drawing wealth from the mortgaged future potential income of Canada's young first time home buyers. Or, just running STRs in the big cities.
    - Scoundreller 3y ago

voisin 3y ago

I would suggest that 20 years ago life was far more affordable for the average person, such that it was more conducive to risk taking for personal gain. Today, everything is so damn expensive (housing being the most obvious, but really everything) that taking a few years out of your life to try to start a business feels like a massively riskier proposition in that those are years you’d otherwise be making money to ideally save for a house down payment which keeps getting farther and farther away even while working (in some areas of the GTA, house prices were increasing on average by $80k/month).

martin_drapeau 3y ago

I run a Canadian tech startup here. Funding to get going is of course an issue. The BDC (referenced in this article) is just another bank and have zero means to help a SaaS getting started. We turned to the US to get funding (besides our own money). TinySeed specializes in boostrapped B2B SaaS. They have an incubator program that is really good and got us going. We're at the point of getting a line of credit and again have to deal with Canadian banks. Again the BDC cannot help more than any other bank. We also looked at government tech subsidies and grants. Honestly, there is so much paperwork that takes time away from gaining customers and growing the business. We did not pursue. Maybe when you reach 20+ staff these things will come to help you. Especially if you have someone to manage it. But when you get started, you're on your own.

cmrdporcupine 3y ago
Back when I worked at a Canadian startup and had to do SRED paperwork I got the vibe that it was more about companies that could afford to hire SRED consultants than it was actual research and dev. Heard stories about web dev / media shops milking SRED, while I saw people doing actual foundational engineering struggle (nor could they waste the time filling in the paperwork). This was over a decade ago. Did not come away with a positive impression of the tech startup scene in Canada. Yours and other comments since have only fed that.
- somerandomqaguy 3y ago
  ... I want to disagree with this, but it lines up with my own experience. My work was being presented for similar grants with very flimsy justifications. Not pure web work but it wasn't exactly foundational research either.
  - e-brake 3y ago
    I too have seen this as a past entrepreneur in Canada. A lot of accountants are in on misrepresenting SR&ED tax credit applications and will attempt to find the "research" in regular IT work. They will even do the technical writing and filing work for free, while taking a commission of the take when the tax credits roll in (free money). There is a whole segment of startups propped up by SR&ED. I've seen many doing innovative work with a sound business plan, using that money to get to profitability, and it's great they were able to get funding, but a lot of others milked the system fraudulently, using SR&ED consultants to continue to exist when they should have failed.

pokstad 3y ago

Funny timing on this article. I just watched the BlackBerry drama about Waterloo based Research In Motion. Pretty good movie.

shyn3 3y ago

Canada is a communist country how can we have entrepreneurs..

fallingfrog 3y ago

Don’t you need hundreds of thousands of dollars to become an entrepreneur? Or millions? I mean buying a place to do business alone is crazy, real estate is so expensive. I would start with that if I was wondering why people aren’t starting businesses. Is the money there? You can’t educate yourself into three hundred thousand dollars. Seems like the first obvious place to look.

logicchains 3y ago
>Don’t you need hundreds of thousands of dollars to become an entrepreneur No, many entrepreneurs borrow money to start businesses. Traditionally that was a function of banks, lending to small businesses. Maybe not in Canada.
randomdata 3y ago
BDC from the article is a bank – owned by the government of Canada that exclusively lends to entrepreneurs. They have the money needed for someone to become an entrepreneur. What is missing is people with a vision to use that money. The idea they are presenting, right or wrong[1], is that educating yourself can produce the missing vision. [1] Probably wrong as Canada is considered, according to the OECD, the most educated nation in the world.

dade_ 3y ago

These explanations are all very interesting, but the reality is that any good business person must decide when to invest. The conditions have been far from favourable for years in Canada. Real estate is simply too expensive. Sure commercial real estate for the plant or office or whatever facility you need is outrageously expensive, but then, when you wanted to hire somebody or try, they need to pay rent or a mortgage. People aren’t demanding outrageous wages because they suddenly think they’re worth it. They just know how expensive it is to pay the bills and groceries. Government policy, both the conservatives and the liberals, are very cosy to large corporations. Most of their announcements, that supposedly help small businesses are simply far out of reach due to requirements for revenue or number of employees, and is essentially corporate welfare. The BDC and EDC are a joke, both crown corporations run by people very disconnected from any sort of reality. Of course it was driven by interest rates, but the insidious thing about interest rate is it allows zombie corporations. These organizations that should’ve gone out of business being acquired or shut down, but because of their size and revenue were able to continue to borrow more and more and more money at extremely low interest rates. of course it’s coming to an end now as financial reality hits. Many of these companies are forced to cut, but they were actually hopelessly dysfunctional so over time though finally either just be bought or go to business. all of this to say, the last 20 years has been a terrible time to start a business in Canada but a lot of markers are indicating things could be getting better soon. While it may be good for somebody starting a business isn’t good for necessarily the average person. anyway, the thing I find absolutely laughable is that we need more education for entrepreneurs. The funniest thing I’ve read all year. there is no education that will make someone an entrepreneur, but someone may learn enough to be scarred out of taking the plunge. finally, the idea that there’s a single definition of Canadians is completely stupid and misinformed. culture varies dramatically from coast to coast and from the south to the north. if someone thinks that nobody wants to work, or nobody wants to make money, it speaks about the people that they associate with not the country they live in. I think that is true most anywhere.

cmrdporcupine 3y ago
Yours is the most reasoned comment here, thank you. And you're right to point the finger at both major parties. While I agree that there's no single definition of Canadian, I do think there's a particular Canadian sickness that seems to think that policy that benefits and protects existing established interests is good policy. Example: local rural zoning laws here in Hamilton area were being revisited some years ago. I live on a small farm so went to the sessions and read the documents, etc. And I have an interest in the wine industry, so noticed that in the bylaws they went out of their way to explicitly forbid winery development in any area but an area east of the city (towards Niagara.) Why? When I asked the zoning officer at a public meeting, she just stared at me blankly: "Because that's where the wineries already are." She wasn't corrupt. She wasn't stupid. She didn't care about the issue. But the thought that you might want to craft regulation in such a way to leave things open for new entrants and possibilities was ... confusing to her. But why would you close off a whole agricultural area to new developments like that? I don't get the mindset, but I see it all the time. Maybe because we're so used to being squashed by the US that we feel we have to protect the successes that we have? Bizarrely though we have very intense internal protectionism. I see examples of this all over the place. From Alberta's recent moves against the burgeoning renewable energy sector, to Ontario wine regulations, to the way the telecomms sector is run nationally, to the way grants and incubators etc are set up.

adamiscool8 3y ago

Canada is captured by real estate investors, bureaucrats, and the Century Initiative [0]. So rather than developing national infrastructure and tier 2/3 markets across this giant landmass (like China) to create affordable places to incubate entrepreneurship, they ramp up immigration into "mega-regions" driving up living costs, making everyone risk averse and entrepreneurship untenable. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Century_Initiative https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Century_Initiative

WalterBright 3y ago

> would-be entrepreneurs face a barrage of discouraging factors, such as labour shortages, inflation, technological change and the increasing domination of large companies. More likely ever-increasing taxes, mandates, lawsuits and crushing regulations.

kahnclusions 3y ago

Difficult and complicated to get funding, insanely high rent, Canadian banks and telcos are stuck in the Stone Age, and the government bureaucracy is impotent and moves at a snail’s pace. Or we move to America and earn twice as much money.

dgudkov 3y ago

I know the cost of living is now a standard excuse for everything unfortunate in Canada, but I have an untypical view on this topic: Canadians strike me as a very undemanding nation. I mean, they are ready to go through whatever inconvenience a big corp may force them into, and still be fine about it. To Canadians, it's just the way things are, inevitable evil. At the same time, an entrepreneur frequently starts by targeting a market niche and offering better quality or better service or a novel way of doing things. However, a market niche assumes that there are consumers with a niche demand. But if consumers are undemanding and are OK with keeping paying for something subpar, this leaves us with not so many market niches and thus opportunities. At the same time, doing business is great in Canada. The tax system is simple (just 3 taxes). Reduced tax rates for small businesses. Registering a business can be done online for a small fee. The banks are OK. Abundance of decent business-related services - accountants, designers, etc. It's relatively easy to sell to the government. Finding a good lawyer is a tough problem, though. But I suspect it's a problem everywhere. PS. I run a technology company based in Canada.

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muunbo 3y ago
I totally agree with the “undemanding Canadians” view…so true! I moved here 12 years ago from Dubai and the demands/standards of business and service are way lower here. Pros are that it’s laid back and chill, cons are that we are unlikely to lead and innovate because we are satisfied with the status quo
- amrocha 3y ago
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  - fastball 3y ago
    Whoa where did this come from?

kazinator 3y ago

> What else might help? I'd mention something, but I see you've already invited a giant white elephant, which has its trunk wound around the handle of an "affordable housing" sign.

thomassmith65 3y ago

The grand theories in this thread about Canada's national character, its housing prices, its tax rates, etc etc. The descent of Canada's tech industry has moved in lockstep with the ascent of the internet, and good internet access depends on good telecom companies, and Canada has none. Canada's telecom monopoly stabbed the country's future to death with a rusty awl.

FpUser 3y ago

This article is such a load of BS (bar couple of sound points). I particularly love parts where they imply that putting people into hardship (pay less and fire mor) is a potential solution. Those fuckers should just lead by the example rather than getting salaries for spreading lies. Start your own successful business and then you can talk.

langsoul-com 3y ago

> The Crown corporation says the decline puts the economy in danger, and it worked with researchers from the Université de Montréal to analyze the problem and what's causing it, and to consider solutions. Its recommendation: Some of the difficulties of entrepreneurship can be overcome by helping business owners develop "soft skills," such as grit, marketing and how to interact with people I wonder if they're self aware about how dumb their suggestions sound. If all it took was some sort skills, then everyone would be starting businesses left and right. Or because they're paid to say something. And that needs to be easily and individually actionable.

j7ake 3y ago

Honestly I think it’s not canada vs usa, but Bay Area, New York, and Boston vs everywhere else in the world. These three regions in usa are doing almost all the innovation in the western world currently. Why? Because it’s where ambitious, hungry people go to make their mark in their world. Success breeds success and usa treats their successful better than any other western country.

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 3y ago

Apparently it's a Netherlands decease, as Canada's main business is natural resources, and it makes little sense to invest in other things.

chx 3y ago

> and found that the country has 100,000 fewer entrepreneurs than it did 20 years ago — despite the fact that the population has grown by more than 10 million over the same period. Canada is a bit below 39M people. In 2003 it was above 31M. The growth is decidedly less than 10M. But yes, support for entrepreneurs is nonexistent, my little company (not even reaching 1M CAD a year in revenue) is controlled by the same rules on paper as SNC-Lavalin (except of course if they break the rules the prime minister fires the minister of justice to avoid prosecution but if I am late with a report a few days I get fined). Many European countries have simple flat taxes with minimal administration.

teunispeters 3y ago

I'll sum from what I've seen. 1. the rents are too damned high. 2. Bureaucracy has barriers for everyone except monopolies, and prefers monopolies as it's less groups to negotiate with. (A significant amount of said bureaucracy is private industry, but yes, most public qualifies too). 3. Internet access is controlled by a small group of monopolies who manage to (largely) keep access costs above anywhere else in the world, largely - and definitely higher than most of the USA. 4. Shipping is largely controlled by either US monopolies that aren't reliable, safe or consistent, or Canada Post who's been eroded repeatedly by Canadian Conservatives favouring their US friends. 5. US protectionism results in some businesses - especially supplies - either being shut down or bought up and moved US-side or the like. This one goes back a long ways, but Conservatives provincially and federally have escalated it every chance they have. In short - if your business idea requires a storefront, you're likely paying 2-10x housing rent (or more), and your home will be 2-10x what it was renting for 1-3 years ago. Business rents go up arbitrarily without any ability to negotiate (as the people renting out control it). Household rent goes up arbitrarily, largely due to same. While I've not seen direct proof, there are signs most real estate is either owned by foreign (eg USA based or other) for (artificially inflated) investment, tax evaders or money launderers. Canadian real estate isn't worth the price attached almost anywhere - especially when one qualifies that outside of some specific areas, it's colder than most other places in the world. At the end of the day it's still possible, but if I could find a path to get a simple product to market without being swamped by amazon (and its cartels of forgers and thieves - most third party) or similar across other markets ... I would have long ago. There's one more cost of entry - NIMBYism and city zoning. This is a subtle one - it means one has a lot of barriers against opening a business out of a home unless strictly mail order. This was established a long time ago...

Joel_Mckay 3y ago

Canada has all the issues and none of the advantages of the US market 10 times its size. Real-estate securitization has DoS’d key class 5 to 7 zones. This means empty industrial buildings stay empty, as the tax-deductions on inflated-valuations are also used to underwrite more debt... worth more than any lease sucker deal. Try to convince a competent CEO a small $32k/month triple-net lease isn’t going to bleed an inexperienced company into receivership eventually. Pick just about any US state, hire 30 locals, and making a profit gets so much easier. The US financial ecosystem is generally far more harmonious even to type C corporations. As an outsider in unregulated markets, one could see Corporate sponsored prostitution, targeted bribery, and blackmail. You just aren't important enough if you don't know these facts yet. Canada has some of the silliest smart people in the world =)

randomdata 3y ago

> For its report, BDC defined an entrepreneur as a self-employed worker who hires employees to support their venture. Perhaps what has actually changed in the last 20 years is that, thanks to technical advancement, a need for employees has declined – not that fewer people are taking on business operational risk as entrepreneur is more typically defined? For example, I operate three different businesses in Canada, but only one of them hires employees.

anovikov 3y ago

Maybe it's simply about concentration? Fewer entrepreneurs but they are bigger - because in digital economy, things scale better, thus there are fewer, bigger winners.

Jemm 3y ago

Competent and "cultural fit" people in Canada are not only drawn to the US by higher wages, but they are actively pushed out of Canada by a system that does not value them.

newsclues 3y ago

I was in a city grant committee in a community in Canada. Most of the committee was happy to dole out funding for arts projects. I was the only one that advocated for funding an entrepreneur program, and reasoning that funding future entrepreneurs will create the funding for art’s grant was lost on the progressives.

xedrac 3y ago

Maybe I've just become more aware of the origins of the products I buy, but I have encountered a lot of Canadian things lately: Apollo electric scooter, Fluance sound system, 1Password service, Zealios keyboard switches, etc... I don't go out of my way to buy Canadian made things, it just seems like they are everywhere.

naveen99 3y ago

Maybe a sign of progress. Wealthier economies have fewer self employed people than poorer economies.

aussiegreenie 3y ago

I have to ask the question "What is an entreneur?" How do people define it? Are young "sneakerheads" who collect and trade shoes "entrenprenuers"