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Mastercard Should Stop Selling Our Data
- tpmx 3y agoEFF doing something that pertains to their charter as it stood e.g. 10 years ago? I'm all for it.
- worik 3y agoWhat are you getting at?
- helph67 3y agoGreatly appreciate this post! Have a Mastercard issued by my bank and have now requested them to investigate or else!
- Terretta 3y agoYour bank knows. If they're big enough, they will have known for a while as Google and/or MC will have told them during a sales pitch. See the Bloomberg reporting from 2018: https://archive.vn/SLmFw https://archive.vn/SLmFw
- doctorpangloss 3y agoThis comment is meant to get an interesting conversation instead of "mastercard bad" or whatever. Would the EFF feel any differently if the data were pseudo-anonymous and open to everyone? You can go to SteamDB.info and learn a lot about millions of people based on what games they buy. It's a psuedo-anonymous per-user purchase history. Here's mine: https://steamdb.info/calculator/76561197975362423/?cc=us https://steamdb.info/calculator/76561197975362423/?cc=us . You can look up basically anyone on Steam, and even do advanced math on all of it. It's been going on for at least a decade. Have there been consequences or harms? I mean maybe in some isolated case I can imagine it. But there's also lots of value in the data being open.
- pstuart 3y agoGood point. The sticky point is privacy protection. Would you be ok with every single transaction you make being public? Even if so, many would not be. Selling/sharing depersonalized data is hard to find fault with.
- doctorpangloss 3y agoIs it objectively true in general that default sharing transaction-level credit card data - in other words, I can see a (pseudo) anonymous "user ID" column in a table of transactions - benefits all of us more than default privacy? In my estimation yes, but this is a complex question. My point is that the EFF spends no time investigating this in a serious way at all. We live the reality I'm describing with Steam, which is millions of people, it's been going on for a long time, it's conceivable that even broader categories of transaction data may be prisoner-dilemma-style valuable to share. I just wish the EFF would engage with that 1 iota. Otherwise they are just another opinion in a sea of brand-and-celebrity posters.
- wkat4242 3y agoAbsolutely not. Pseudo-anoymous can still be traced back with the right correlations. It should just be illegal to use customer data unless they explicitly agree. It's not even about harm. It's about having a right to privacy. And this is not some computer games we're talking about. It's our whole lives.
- reactordev 3y agoThen we all should vote for a new net neutrality because until internet is a utility, you agree to a terms of service that is hostile towards privacy.
- mminer237 3y agoNot every anonymization can be undone. It depends on how it's done. And customers already explicitly agree. They just don't read the terms when they sign up or value having a credit card more than that level of privacy.
- wkat4242 3y agoWe should have a payment system that isn't held hostage by two providers anyway. At least here in Europe MasterCard and visa are the only options. Amex and Discovery are really unusable here. Besides selling our data this also means we get American morals pushed on us, eg they won't provide payments for some websites they don't like. But how do you break up such a duopoly?
- reactordev 3y agoYou start an EU competing service with the top EU banks and money lenders. You build a bunch of credit card infrastructure. You tie your infrastructure to the merchant systems and get gateways to implement your protocol. Not exactly easy but it’s not impossible. An app based system could probably do it and force ApplePay and GooglePay to use it in those areas. They will if it’s in place.
- wkat4242 3y agoWell the whole credit/lending part isn't even needed. In Europe this is only a marginal thing and most people just have debit cards.
- reactordev 3y agoYou need capital to lend though or you need lender groups you can securitize. That’s the “credit” part of Visa/Mastercard. The concept can easily be done all digital. IANAE on payments but pretty sure if you build it (and connect it), it would work.
- c0pium 3y agoWhat you wrote is not responsive to the comment you are replying to. Whether it would work is irrelevant if it’s bad product market fit.
- wolverine876 3y agoThere are advantages to credit. For example, the money remains in your hands until you pay your credit card bill, so if there is a dispute, fraud, or overcharge, you don't have to fight and wait to get your money back. Also, some businesses, such as car rental companies, won't provide services to debit card holders. Also, it's a free [edit: zero-interest, not free] loan (if you pay credit card bills in full); you get some small marginal revenue from the money you keep for up to a month.
- yjftsjthsd-h 3y agoAny idea if Mastercard is worse than Visa/Discover? It's not a healthy competitive market, but there are options, I'm curious if I should be making an effort to use one.
- Terretta 3y agoBloomberg reporting, circa 2018: “For the past year, select Google advertisers have had access to a potent new tool to track whether the ads they ran online led to a sale at a physical store in the U.S. That insight came thanks in part to a stockpile of Mastercard transactions that Google paid for...” “But most of the two billion Mastercard holders aren’t aware of this behind-the-scenes tracking. That’s because the companies never told the public about the arrangement. .... But the deal, which has not been previously reported, could raise broader privacy concerns about how much consumer data technology companies like Google quietly absorb.” https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-08-30/google-and-mastercard-cut-a-secret-ad-deal-to-track-retail-sales https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-08-30/google-an... https://archive.vn/SLmFw https://archive.vn/SLmFw
- sys_64738 3y agoHow does Mastercard know what you actually bought? If got to Costcos then the CC bill says the whole amount, not individual items.
- lozenge 3y agoI guess these advertisers own stores, eg clothing. The marketers also only need to compare between multiple campaigns, not get a fully accurate count of how many people were served an ad then made a purchase. Yeah, if you use a Visa card you won't show up, but that's just a fixed unknown factor.
- rad_gruchalski 3y agoYour cc bill says that. The shop knows individual items you purchased and they know how you paid. Someone is buying that data.
- secondcoming 3y agoI belive Mastercard have already told customers in certain regions to stop using their data by last week.
- daft_pink 3y agoDoes this mean that Visa, AMEX and Discover don't sell our data? I agree. Just curious if I should be preferring a specific card company.
- thephyber 3y agoNone of the big 4 networks in the US don’t sell data. Best to opt-out of each that you use.
- bippihippi1 3y agosource?
- thephyber 3y agoA 5 second search on Google shows Reddit r/privacy has threads for each of {AMEX, Visa, Mastercard, Discover} opt-out of marketing links. I would argue that data brokers are so prolific in the transactions processing space that we should assume the onus is flipped and assume all companies are doing it until they can prove they aren’t (which is a pretty difficult task). I also realize that other countries/governments regulate this space differently, so I’m speaking specifically about the USA.
- Rastonbury 3y agoWould be surprised if there are or have been meetings at these companies where they ask themselves when they can start doing what MC is doing
- gruez 3y agoThere's an opt-out here: https://www.mastercard.us/en-us/vision/corp-responsibility/commitment-to-privacy/privacy/data-analytics-opt-out.html https://www.mastercard.us/en-us/vision/corp-responsibility/c...
- jacooper 3y agoDoes visa do the same thing? Do they have an opt our too?
- pacifika 3y agoSomething went wrong
- rozab 3y agoHilarious. Is this even working for anybody?
- fbelzile 3y agoSince Firefox auto-filled my credit card number, I had to delete and re-type the last digit for it to work. Presumably, they have some JS looking for key up/down events to do some validation.
- ThePowerOfFuet 3y agoMake sure there are no spaces or dashes, digits only.
- asciii 3y agoI wonder how this impacts Apple Card (via GS) and knowing Apple's whole privacy focus
- kylehotchkiss 3y ago“but do not share or sell your transaction information to third parties for marketing or advertising.” The wording only says they can’t share or sell transactions for those two reasons but I’d imagine analytics may be a valid reason?
- tiffanyh 3y agoFraud analytics gets an exception from most regulator laws.
- zeristor 3y agoIf you’re in Europe would this be an issue? I’ve opted out all the same, no mention was made that nothing would be done, or assurance that this might not be an issue for me. [Edited for accidental Yoda grammar]
- Probiotic6081 3y agothey should but they won't.
- phyzome 3y agoUse cash more. I know you can't use it everywhere, and for everything, but -- for the sake of privacy, use cash when and where you can. The cashless economy is a surveillance economy, and if you care about privacy (for others, if not for yourself) then you should use cash whenever possible.
- paulpauper 3y agothe problem is cash is sometimes slower. self-checkout machines not uncommonly have card-only option or otherwise stuck waiting in line, which can be way slower
- worik 3y agoSo not there. Where you can, is the important part
- ClumsyPilot 3y agothat is not relevant, it does not help produce alternative payment system
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- lxgr 3y agoUnfortunately, using cash does not by itself create an alternative that can be used for remote/online payments too.
- phyzome 3y agoI'm aware. But it does reduce the value of data mining, simply by reducing the amount of data.
- corkybeta 3y agocardholders Mastercard thinks will be “high-value”—predictions used to target certain people and encourage them to spend more money. Sorry, I don't understand, perhaps because I am in the UK not US. My bank issues my Mastercard, so I don't have a direct relationship with them. How would they target me?
- louloulou 3y agoYou are using Mastercard's payment network whenever you pay for something. They see and record all your transactions. Mastercard is the entity informing your bank to pay the merchant's bank.
- maronato 3y agoYes, but how is Mastercard encouraging me to spend more? In my day to day, it matters little which payment network I use since that’s abstracted away by the bank’s interface. What opportunity does Mastercard have to target me?
- lxgr 3y agoPresumably they could tell stores that you have your card on file with? (Only speculating; I have no idea if they or any other card network actually does that.)
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- conception 3y agoOffering lower interests rates as a promo, higher limits, low interest loans, bonus points from certain brands/categories, offering new types of cards, etc etc
- semiquaver 3y agoRead OP’s comment again. Mastercard is not a card issuer, they can offer none of the things you mentioned. The answer to OP’s question, of course, is that Mastercard doesn’t make use of the information it has directly. It sells the information to interested parties like Google and other advertisers. This is the behavior EFF is objecting to.
- paulpauper 3y agoAnyone who makes an account on a commercial website has consented to this indirectly. We've crossed the Rubicon long ago. Most people seem content with their info shared, sold, brokered, etc.
- sircastor 3y agoContent? I doubt it. But the choice is agreeing to the terms or not being able to use modern services. And the terms are increasingly abusive. It used to be that buying something remotely was mailing or calling Sears-Roebuck. You give them money, they ship you a thing. Reasonably discretely.
- barrysteve 3y agoTha's a very blunt measurement of 'content'. Vito Corleone knew how to make an offer you can't refuse. Tech has done the same, in very finely measured increments.
- r00fus 3y agoHow does Apple Card compare (since it’s also a Mastercard)?
- alexfromapex 3y agoThis is why Europe passed data privacy laws.
- pantulis 3y agoNot only GDPR, but also a payments directive (PSD2).
- 6ak74rfy 3y agoCoincidentally, just earlier today I was looking for one-time-use prepaid cards. I thought I'd buy a few $100 worth cards and use them for pseudo-anonymous transactions. However, all I could find were prepaid "debit cards" (which could be easily tied back to be) our store specific "gift" cards. Curious to see if anyone has a good solution for that? (In the US.)
- hansvm 3y agoVisa vanilla is fairly practical for most threat models. I know some orgs are trying to do more ad targeting via security cameras across multiple stores, but afaik you'll have no problem paying cash for a visa vanilla gift card, activating it online (through a vpn or something if you're worried about that level of tracking), and then using it like a credit card at nearly any brick-and-mortar store and many online retailers. Potential flaws: (1) They used to have a bit of overhead (1-5%). Not sure nowadays. (2) None of that is ironclad anonymity. Don't be an outspoken gay ukrainian hacktivist journalist visiting russia or anything. (3) Some organizations will only do business with you if they're able to slurp up more data than the initial transaction would suggest to a reasonable person. You can't use prepaid phones to sign up to many online accounts (notably Facebook for a long time) because the site owner can't slurp up your address and other info without certain postpaid plans, and you can't use any pseudo-anonymous card [0] to make transactions at a place that wants to buy your address and purchasing habits from the card issuer. [0] Solutions like privacy.com might qualify here perhaps, in that you can actually anonymize your name/address/... and still use most of the sites trying to capitalize on that data, but fundamentally that just turns them into a middleman with the same data, and I expect they'll sell out eventually. Plus they have raw access to your bank account and other things you might not want to give out.
- TheCapeGreek 3y ago>You can't use prepaid phones to sign up to many online accounts Presumably this is meaning prepaid phone numbers? Also assuming this is likely a US thing? Or I'm misreading it somehow. Because otherwise, I've always bought my phone cash and buy my airtime and data prepaid (no contract) in both EU and Africa and have never come across a service that restricted my phone number for being prepaid.
- nologic01 3y agoImagine you go to a market notorious for haggling and the company that sold you your wallet monitors all your transactions and reports them to whomever of the market sellers pays most. You are now the fat chicken, ready to be plucked: You just bought a hammer, now you need nails. From your social media trail sellers can also infer you are somewhat of a dimwit. Hurry, nails are in high demand in your area. But no worries, here is a great offer for you, valid for the next 0.3 hours. I just can't understand how people have come to accept such erosion of their privacy, ultimately their very own economic interests and agency under the hands of manipulative operators and captured regulators. What kind of collective inanity allows such social degeneration. Was it always like that? Is there any hope?
- seanthemon 3y agoYes, it always was like this, all the way back to snake oil salesmen and probably even further back. Now we have 'legit' companies that know the exact snake oil you'd want. There will always be a battle between the wants and want nots.
- nologic01 3y agoI was always under the impression that despite ups and downs there was (on average) progress, improvement, in some broadly defined way. I am no longer sure. One could always think that we hit a local minimum. But the comatose, practically non-existent debate suggests there are no reacting forces, the malaise runs deep. Its puzzling and confusing because none of that phemomena seem pre-ordained. Its all self-inflicted through abysmally bad governance. Literally made up through behavior and choices.
- zelphirkalt 3y agoNow however, the consequences are on a truly global scale, so it becomes more important than ever before, while at the same time becoming less understandable than ever before for normal people. So instead of downtalking the issue, we should highlight it more than ever before and we should inform and educate people more than ever before. 'cept that education sector is struggling to even get financed in places. We even have people seriously thinking schools should finance themselves, because they are too short-sighted, to see the net benefit for a society, that a good education system brings with it. This in the face of ever more things to learn about the digital world. And I live in a country, where there isn't even an official school subject about interacting with this digital world.
- BrandonS113 3y agoOne reason to like the visa mastercard duopoly. They work everywhere. I go to the Netherlands a lot for work, and it is a real pain as they have their own payment system, IDEAL, one needs to live there, that is closed to foreigners. Many vendors, especially outside of main tourist areas will not take foreign cards. Guess they don't want to pay 0.1% fees. Yesterday, was left embarrassed in Albert Heijn where they only took Dutch cards and I did not have enough cash. (some AH do, most don't)
- flarg 3y agoOutside of main cities and Germany is the same for restaurants and cafes. Pita
- lstamour 3y agoAs a tourist, though, a pro tip is that big banks in Germany charge for deposits, not withdrawals, so if you happen to have a debit Mastercard with no exchange fees (e.g. in Canada, EQ Bank or WealthSimple), you can use your Mastercard at a bank ATM completely fee free and at Mastercard exchange rates. Plus it doesn’t matter which bank you go to, just pick the nearest name brand big bank ATM and you’re good to go.
- em500 3y agoBut as you just discovered, they don't work everywhere. Plenty of Dutch and German stores don't accept them. Visa and Mastercard interchange fees are nowadays capped to 0.3% by law, but they used to be 2%+ (and still are in the USA AFAICT), that's why historically Dutch and German retailers shunned them. Why pay 2% to accept a few more cards from foreigners and tourists when 99% of your customers already have a 0.3% fee card (Maestro or VPay)? Also, the Dutch iDEAL system might form in important building block of a European home-grown payment solution, that hopefully will give the Visa/MC duopoly some actual competition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Payments_Initiative https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Payments_Initiative
- BrandonS113 3y ago
- hknmtt 3y agoActually all current card payment providers should be put out of business altogether. Two companies(master/visa) hold complete control over the entire customer spending in the whole world.- They also prevented banks from catching up to the 21st century, technology-wise, and we still do not have instant online payments. There is so many things bad with banking and many causes can be traced back to these card payment providers. We need alternatives, as many as there are banks in the world. Every bank needs to be a card payment provider, an online payment gateway providers and so on.
- Lutger 3y agoNot the whole world, this is mostly in the United States. In Europe its more like what you describe, banks are the card payment provider and we have (near) instant online transfers. Credit cards are relatively unimportant here.
- izacus 3y agoWhat are you going on about? Pretty much all European banks issue Visa/Mastercard credit and debit cards (sometimes under their subbrands Maestro and VPay) by default to pretty much all customers. Most in-store payment processing goes directly over those two companies still.
- zelphirkalt 3y agoPlus, if you want to buy anything online outside of your own country (in Europe), you will likely have to use a credit card or something like PayPal. Or some other third party, that is connected to your credit card.
- sofixa 3y agoBut the underlying payments network isn't necessarily Visa/Mastercard's. In the case of France, there's Cartes Bancaires https://www.cartes-bancaires.com/ https://www.cartes-bancaires.com/, which you can pay through regardless of your card type (Visa, Mastercard, Amex) as an alternative over paying through the Visa/Mastercard/Amex networks. And of course with GDPR, there are actual restrictions on how Visa/Mastercard can monetise your transaction history, and with banking regulations, how much of a cut they can take.
- faeriechangling 3y agoPeople use separate “loyalty cards” which are a pure data for discounts play happily enough. The only reason such cards have become less popular over time is Mastercard, Visa, and Amex have rendered such products redundant. At this point you can also 99% of the time pay cash and efforts to change this face significant political resistance as being discriminatory to the poor/unbanked. I think the argument “why don’t you just not use their products if you don’t like the deal” is a shockingly good argument… for now. We can revisit this issue when society truly goes cashless, but for now, not the hill I’d die on. Mastercard will cry bloody MURDER before they let go of this gold mine. If anything I find the interchange fees and the virtual monopsony the credit card companies have to be more scandalous.
- MattSayar 3y agoI visited the Air Force Academy football stadium this past weekend. Multiple audio announcements and various signs posted all over the stadium proclaimed the Falcon stadium as a "cashless venue."
- RadixDLT 3y agoits not just Mastercard, most banks like Charles Schwab do too
- EchoReflection 3y agoso appropriate, literally just saw incoming email from "Shop" (a company I'm sure I was "obliged" to use because some other company that I actually wanted to use told me "we now process all of our transactions through 'Shop'!" This email reads: We wanted to let you know we’re updating our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy (“Terms”), which applies to the products or services you use, like Shop and Shop Pay. We periodically update our Terms as our services evolve, and to address new laws and regulations. We’ve also made them easier to read. The changes will take effect on November 6, 2023. Here are some highlights: Terms of Service • Broadened the description of the services and features we offer to you and how these services work • Addressed new compliance requirements around Shopify’s role as a platform Privacy Policy • Explained how we use your data for advertising, and provided information about your consumer rights • Integrated the Privacy for Customers policy, improving transparency about how we process personal information when you interact with a merchant • Updated language to better reflect how our products work, such as Shop • Re-structured parts to add detail about the information Shopify collects and why, how we use it, and how we may share it. --- Now I "need" to figure out how to delete that account/request erasure of all my personal data. Just did that with "23andme" yesterday and it was pretty straightforward, but still I have to kick my past self for being naive enough to sign up for this crap in the first place.