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Bill to ban hidden fees in California signed into law
- api 3y agoGreat. Now do something about housing prices.
- astrange 3y agoSB423 and AB835 will help with that. Unfortunately Newsom is also doing some strange presidential run attempt where he's vetoed a bunch of popular bills everyone likes, including a new public housing program AB309.
- RecycledEle 3y agoI am tired of new names for old crimes If a company advertised one price then charges another price, that is false advertising and fraud. Why pass a new law against hidden fees? Just prosecute the crooks under the laws we have had since our nation was founded.
- ngoel36 3y agoGlad we are focused on the most critical issues facing society.
- dehrmann 3y agoIt might not be the most crucial, but it likely has widespread voter support, and it makes it harder for merchants to take advantage of customers. No, it doesn't solve California's homeless problem, but it's a win for consumers.
- pingpongchef 3y agoFees businesses charge will be a nonissue when businesses are unable to operate in California
- parineum 3y agoWhich single issue is the consensus most important one that they should be working on first before they do anything else?
- sowbug 3y agoThis comment is a partial example of the fallacy of relative privation. It's only partial because usually when people make it, they go the extra mile to include the thing that they think is more important. https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Relative-Privation https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Relativ...
- amatecha 3y agoIs that like "convenience fee" or that sort of crap such as on Ticketmaster? If so, this is amazing! Make it NA-wide please :) haha
- koito17 3y agoIt has to do more with e.g. ISPs charging fees that are not revealed to prospective customers (either in their website or other marketing materials) yet appear in a monthly statement and significantly increase the real cost of their service. cf. https://gizmodo.com/comcast-fcc-doesnt-want-to-list-all-its-broadband-fees-1850540251 https://gizmodo.com/comcast-fcc-doesnt-want-to-list-all-its-... You can also find other recent articles about this kind of thing
- autoexec 3y agoIt both (minus taxes unfortunately)
- musicale 3y agoTicket fees should be covered.
- comex 3y agoYes, it would include that kind of thing. It’s written broadly to include all fees except (1) taxes and government-mandated fees, and (2) shipping fees (which have to match the actual cost the seller pays for shipping).
- autoexec 3y agoYeah, we should make this national policy but make it include tax and government mandated fees too. I don't mind listed prices not including shipping fees because that requires knowing where I want something shipped to and how. As long as that's clearly disclosed before I pass the point of no return in a transaction, shipping fees aren't such a big deal.
- roschdal 3y agoHidden feeds is the pillars of silicon Valley startups. Having no idea how much the service will actually cost.
- dehrmann 3y agoSubsidizing a business isn't the same as hidden fees.
- bagels 3y agoIs this going to apply to telecom or utilities?
- latentcall 3y agoJust need other states to follow suit. However, I personally haven’t dealt with hidden fees and don’t know how prevalent they are in the US. Is it a widespread issue? I suppose none of the companies I do business with have them.
- newprint 3y agoit is a very widespread issue, from buying a car to internet, to restaurants.
- cmeacham98 3y agoHave you been to a sit-down restaurant recently? Where I live (major southeast US city) there's a 50/50 chance there will be some random bullshit fee (sometimes even more than one!) tacked onto the bill (and I'm not talking about tax or a tip).
- Beldin 3y agoTaxes are (should be) completely predictable. There's no reason not to include them in the price. So those definitely constitute bs fees.
- musicale 3y agoGiven that they compute the tax on your receipt, they could compute the tax up front unless it depends on delivery location - which they need to ask for anyway.
- cmeacham98 3y agoI agree it would be ideal if taxes were displayed in the price, but they are a known constant easily accounted for. The types of fees I'm referring to are included at the bottom of the menu in 2pt font. You're typically already halfway through ordering before discovering that you'll randomly be charged an extra 20% because the restaurant relies on misleading consumers about their prices to draw them in.
- musicale 3y ago
- adasdasdas 3y agoI don't know why we can't just force everyone to show post tax/fees price upfront. It's complete bullshit that every restaurant bill comes with 3 different taxes.
- darknavi 3y agoBut then how would Arizona Ice Tea be able to print "$1" on their can??? /s
- sacnoradhq 3y agoIt was 49c in 2017, then it was 89c in 2020, and now it's 99c in 2023.
- gingerrr 3y agoWhere? I remember buying Arizona with 99c on it well over a decade ago. edit: it's been 99c for 3 decades, since they started business https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2022-04-12/az-iced-tea-inflation-99-cents https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2022-04-12/az-iced-te...
- sacnoradhq 3y agoThey put 49c labels over the 99c wherever I bought them in California. I think the 99c price was originally for convenience stores because there were sales of 5 for $2 at Walgreens in 2018.
- gingerrr 3y agoI'm also in CA and lived on Arizona for most of my teens and early 20s. Never saw this pricing. I would have remembered it, especially during the skint college years. It's always been a dollar. At best you'd see 2 for 1 deals. It sounds like you live in a heavily subsidized market - probably best not to try to draw generalizations about inflation from your specific circumstances, they are atypical.
- shiroiuma 3y agoThey should ban tipping too.
- ekianjo 3y agoThat would be an actual improvement
- hn_throwaway_99 3y agoEveryone always says this, and it's basically never going to happen, at least in the US. Tons of places have tried to ban tipping and just include the service in the cost of the item. They nearly always revert because the best workers leave to make more money at a tipping joint.
- kelnos 3y agoNot just that, some businesses that try no-tipping end up having to raise their prices significantly more than the average tip amount, since paying their workers a higher non-tipped wage means they have to pay more in payroll taxes too.
- astrange 3y agoThat doesn't apply to California, which already doesn't have a tipped minimum wage. But waiters like tips, because it means they get paid more.
- shiroiuma 3y agoIf tipping is banned in a place (by the local government I mean), where exactly are the "best workers" going to go? Are they going to pack up and move somewhere else? Also, how are the tipped staff the "best workers"? They're just servers. All they have to do is take an order. It's incredible how much money they expect for this, when it's something that would be more efficiently done with an iPad. In US restaurants, they're even too lazy to bring the food for you; I guess they're too busy trying to act like the customer's new best friend.
- throw_m239339 3y agoThat's good, very good. Price transparency is fundamental to a free market society.
- krab 3y ago> Hidden fees are fees in which a seller uses an artificially low headline price to attract a customer and usually either discloses additional required fees in smaller print, or reveals additional unavoidable charges later in the buying process. Like tips?
- rahimnathwani 3y agoI guess tips are technically not 'unavoidable'.
- krab 3y agoYes, I understand. But if you want to come to the same restaurant again and you don't tip, it may be a problem. Imagine Amazon not wanting to do business with you because you didn't add extra X% to your previous purchase.
- kwhitefoot 3y agoThat's the restaurant's problem not mine.
- ThePowerOfFuet 3y agoClearly you haven't learned the lesson of not fucking with those who make your food.
- kwhitefoot 3y agoif the place is that bad I wouldn't want to go back anyway.
- dehrmann 3y agoAt least tips are expected. It's the 5% "employee support fee" that annoys me because it's a hidden fee, and it's not clear how it relates to tips.
- sfmike 3y agoWe could learn from for example Japan where there is no cents and all fees included so 5000 Yen is 5000 yen no tip no tax no fees no cents it's really cortisol reducing.
- oefrha 3y agoWelcome to most of the world.
- _AzMoo 3y agoAside from the cents bit, it's like that in Australia too. If something (retail) says $30 then it's $30. If it says $30.95 then it's $30.95. It's very simple. When you're selling wholesale it's different because it's a sales tax, and that's paid by the consumer, not the retail business.
- jessriedel 3y agoSales tax is paid by the consumer? The consumer mails in a check for the sales tax to the government?
- sowbug 3y agoSales tax is charged only once for a retail good, not for the sales of wholesale goods that led to the retail sale. Otherwise the store that sold you a thing would itself have also had to pay 10% on that thing, as would the factory that bought the raw materials to make the thing, etc.
- jessriedel 3y agoI see, "sales tax only applies to consumer purchases" would have been clearer.
- comex 3y agoCaveat: 1 yen is worth about 1 cent USD.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- Svip 3y agoWhilst encouraging, I also feel like US policies are part of the problem, besides allowing it for so long. The fact that sales tax in the US doesn't just depend on state, but can be down to the house number on a street, means it's difficult to present automated listing of all fees online. There are reasons why sales taxes are not included in price tags in shops. Among them, that the tax could be different if you went across the street, and you don't want to advertise that. (There are numerous other policies contributing to hidden fees, like minimum wage laws leading to tipping.)
- b112 3y agoTaxes aren't remotely related to this, are understood by everyone, and every place I ask is quite happy to disclose local taxes. After all, the company is only collecting them for governments. Yet nothing prevents companies from showing all fees the company charges. All of them. This is what the new law addressees.
- musicale 3y agoLooks like Ticketmaster, AT&T, Comcast Xfinity, Hotels with mandatory "resort fees", airlines, banks, car dealerships and rental agencies, realtors, landlords, etc. may have to make some changes. Deceptive pricing is extremely annoying, as are stealth price increases.
- rahimnathwani 3y agoIANAL but my quick read of the legislation suggests rental car companies might be exempt, as long as the fees are disclosed somewhere.
- petesergeant 3y agoI’d like to see IATA set some standards for airfares that mean you can easily search like-for-like knowing you’ll want to be able to choose your seat and have a bag. Google Flights do an OK but not perfect job at this
- HDThoreaun 3y agoAirlines already have to disclose all fees. I don’t pay a cent more than the price listed on google travel.
- musicale 3y agoInteresting - yet somehow I was hit with a surprise baggage fee fairly recently?
- Ylpertnodi 3y agoTry Ryanair (in the Eu). Deceptive bastards.
- mullingitover 3y agoThey missed an opportunity to make really transparent pricing by including tax in the displayed price.
- kelnos 3y agoAs nice as that would be, I think they probably thought including that in the bill would greatly increase the risk of it failing to pass. What we've gotten here is an improvement, even if it could be better.
- petesergeant 3y agoBet this doesn’t include sales tax, whose non-inclusion is baffling and irritating
- comex 3y agoIt indeed excludes all taxes and government-imposed fees.
- b112 3y agoI know no one who finds this baffling, or irritating. Oddly, only on HN do I ever see anyone(rarely!) express this. Beyond that, it's fully expected, is simple to deal with, it's solved as it is. There's nothing to do here. Nothing to fix.
- astrange 3y agoTypical reason to exclude taxes is that some people don't have to pay it.
- Ylpertnodi 3y agoSame in Eu: those that don't pay the taxes present their trade number and get the tax knocked off - often at the register (seen it often where a tradesperson just needs some quick items). Prices for the rest of us are visible and are what we pay. No guessing involved.
- nodesocket 3y agoLaws like this aren't going to make services and products any cheaper. They'll just shift around and hide the fees into the core price. Sure, that's better I suppose, but end of the day still costs the same amount. Not convinced at all this is a area policy makers should be focusing on.
- inemesitaffia 3y agoYou don't want to drive to a resort, hotel or store with a headline figure of say $300 and end up finding out additional fees double that to $600
- musicale 3y agoResort/amenity fees in a nutshell - just a way for them to advertise a rate that is lower than the actual rate. Unfortunately the law seems to ignore hotel taxes/government fees, which are often substantial.
- kelnos 3y agoThe law is aimed against companies who try to undercut their competitors by listing deceptive pricing. Taxes are always the same rate for a given good and location, so requiring including those would be a separate -- if related -- issue.
- habitue 3y agoThe issue is that you can't compare apples to apples. One company charges more built into the price, another company hides some fees you only see at checkout and can't avoid. It's not adding value and it's not improved by competition (competing with this tactic means hiding more fees than your competitor)
- musicale 3y agoIt bans price dripping, where you go through 6 checkout screens and each one adds a new fee. Car dealerships are also notorious for the practice of continually adding fees after you agree to buy for the advertised price. It also makes it harder for companies (phone companies, cable companies and ISPs, utilities, etc.) to enact stealth rate increases by adding bogus fees to your monthly bill.
- hn_throwaway_99 3y agoComments that are bringing up taxes (which are totally exempted by this bill anyway) and tips (with one small caveat) are completely missing the point. You can have a debate about how to display those items on a price list, but everyone knows about them and they are expected. The whole point of this bill is to prevent bait-and-switch, where loads of unknown or variable fees are tacked on after the price is initially shown. The one caveat I'd say about a tip is if it's mandatory. E.g. if a place requires a minimum tip amount for large parties, it's no longer a tip, it's appropriately called a service charge.
- guitarbill 3y agoDisagree. Bait and switch is one symptom of the issue that the price is not what you'll pay. Which to be clear is awful. And that matters if you have to be careful about spending. Also, "everyone knows about them", really? If it's so easy to "know" the local tax rate for various things, why isn't it easy to label them? See the rest of the world, where even young kids can go shopping. If you give them 5 <amount of currency>, and the item they want is less than 5, or they want five of something that is 1, they can buy it.
- seer 3y agoI really like how tips are done in most of europe, where the tip is included by default in the restaurant price. So now your choices are - add additional tip if you’re really satisfied with your service, or retract the default tip if you’ve been wronged in some way. Just by default you don’t have to think about it, and it shows up in all the places if should - government included.
- SSchick 3y agoI grew up in Germany and never heard about 'retracting' the default tip. The only way I can imagine this is severe complaining to the point where they take something off the bill which I've only ever seen once or twice, where as in the US this is a frequent thing.
- 3y ago
- yieldcrv 3y agoAirBnB Turo who else is sweating right now
- lpolovets 3y agoFrom the article linked in the first paragraph: "The legislation — the first bill of its type across the state — would prohibit advertising a price for a good or service that does not include all required charges other than taxes and fees imposed by a government. Why are taxes and govt fees exempt? This reeks of "rules for thee but not for me." Either to goal is to avoid misleading customers with low advertised prices, or it's not. For example, California has a ~50 cents/gallon fuel tax. Can gas stations start advertising prices that are 50 cents lower than they actually charge and be compliant with this law?
- rahimnathwani 3y agoTaxes and government fees are exempt because it promotes transparency! I wish gas stations showed taxes separately, but I'm guessing retail gas stations aren't the ones collecting and remitting those taxes. It's probably taken earlier in the supply chain.
- autoexec 3y agoIt doesn't promote transparency. It means you still don't know how much something is going to cost by looking at the listed price of that thing. That's the opposite of transparency. Including taxes and fees in the advertised price won't prevent stores (or anyone else) from making it clear what percentage of that price comes from taxes and government fees. I'd love to see more stores provide an itemized breakdown of those fees so that we can see how much of the price to blame on greedy vendors vs sneaky governments. What I want most of all though is to only ever pay what the listed price of an item is. I want to be able to walk in with a single $5 bill and pay for something that says it costs $5 and have that be the end of it. It should really just be that simple. Other countries do it. We can too.
- heimidal 3y agoIt would require a massive overhaul of the tax code in every state, not to mention that it would require state-by-state coordination because Congress cannot force them to comply. Other countries do it because their constitution generally does not include a clause like the Tenth Amendment. But wow, the things it would do to national marketing. Imagine an iPhone launch. Tim Cook gets to the pricing slide and it says, "Starting at $1099 in Alaska, Delaware, Montana, New Hampshire, and Oregon. Check your local store for your pricing in your location." That's our cue to mentally add our local tax rate like we do already, now with the added benefit of feeling bad about where we live.
- LanceH 3y agoI've always wanted to bill some contract work to AT&T in particular and include my personal taxes and fees after the negotiated price.
- musicale 3y ago> Advertising goods or services with intent not to supply reasonably expectable demand, unless the advertisement discloses a limitation of quantity. This is interesting. I expect we'll see more of "first 10 customers" or "while supplies last" (15 seconds). > (11) Advertising furniture without clearly indicating that it is unassembled if that is the case. Ikea is worried. > (19) Inserting an unconscionable provision in the contract. As in every click-through license "agreement" ever?
- goplayoutside 3y agoWill this apply to all those miserable 5% "economic adjustment" surcharges that restaurants started charging a couple of years ago? I stopped going to restaurants that charge those fees, but it's become so widespread that it can be a challenge to find any that don't at this point.
- rrrrrrrrrrrryan 3y agoFrom my understanding of an earlier draft of this bill: If they're mandatory, yes - they'll be outlawed. They may be able to keep them if they allow customers a way to opt-out, but this is less clear.
- zzo38computer 3y agoIt would be a good idea to make in other places too, so that the advertising of prices will not be deceptive, so that you will know what they are. If someone charges you money they did not say (due to the service that was agreed on), it is false advertising and they should not do that.
- zzo38computer 3y agoHowever, there might need to be nuanced, such as if there are both mandatory and non-mandatory fees in a service. It will need to be managed in a satisfactory way which does not hide any fees but ensures which fees are not mandatory, must somehow be specified so that you can know what fees to expect. Furthermore, if fees are not mandatory then they must tell you the fee before you decide to purchase that optional feature. (For example, in a hotel there might be a fee for parking that only applies if you use the parking; they should mention that so that you can add it up yourself before you ever go there, and you will know exactly how much money you need.)
- musicale 3y agoUniversities should be worried.
- gordon_freeman 3y agowill this apply to foreign transaction fees that Banks charge when someone books a flight for example originating from a foreign country to USA? These fees (~3% of whole transaction $)sneak up into the CC statements and always surprises me.
- kelnos 3y agoI don't see how that would work. The merchant does not know what (if any) fees your bank is going to charge; that's between you and your bank.
- menthe 3y agoIronic when the same day, California Gov. Gavin Newsom vetoe'd bill intended to limit the price of insulin, and thus access to essential health care for many.
- tacocataco 3y agoIs that the same bill that would have decriminalized psychedelic mushrooms? Good thing California uses First Past the Post voting, making a two party system a inevitably. Must be cheaper to purchase the government for the 1%.
- gingerrr 3y agoNo, he vetoed more than one good bill today! Busy day for Gavin.
- astrange 3y agoNewsom is the same party as the legislative supermajority. This is a very bad way to analyze politics. Politicians actually believe in the things they're doing.
- dragonwriter 3y ago> Newsom is the same party as the legislative supermajority. FPTP is a major part of the reason why there can be a wide disparity in position on currently salient issues between a legislative supermajority and a governor of the same party, since it is why we have ridiculously “big tent” parties.
- astrange 3y agoMost of the things in the US people blame on FPTP are caused by primary elections, and California doesn't use the usual primary system because it has jungle primaries. And IRV for local elections, but you don't see micro-parties in SF.
- 3y ago
- autoexec 3y agoIt looks like this passed along party lines. What's the "pro hidden fees" stance exactly?
- petesergeant 3y agoPromotes “economic innovation” /s
- Simulacra 3y agoMo fees mo money !
- heimidal 3y agoIn general, their stance has been "vote against anything the governor is willing to sign."
- sacnoradhq 3y agoBill to Ban Hidden Files in California Signed into Law (ca.gov) <- Remind me around the end of March ;@)
- tacocataco 3y agoSo would this enable people to get an actual price for medical services BEFORE using them?
- justinclift 3y agoCame across a US website "Ameridroid" - eg: https://ameridroid.com/products/radxa-zero https://ameridroid.com/products/radxa-zero - that seems to do this: Make sure to go to your cart and add ProtectMyOrder, *If shipping protection is not present in your order, ameriDroid is not liable for lost, damaged, or stolen items. "Shipping Protection" is a US$1.99 extra fee, which is turned on by default. Pretty clearly a complete scam approach.
- nojvek 3y agoAll the Silicon Valley startups will now have engineers working on if (user.location.state == “CA”) … Just like CCPA. I wish other states would join.
- zachshefska 3y agoI hope this applies to car dealers too.
- beachy 3y agoI don't quite see how an overdraft fee (one of the examples given) is a junk fee - it costs the bank real money to cover the loan they are effectively giving you when you are in overdraft.
- wolpoli 3y agoThat would be covered by the interest charged on the overdraft.
- initplus 3y agoIn the recent past, US banks were found to have specifically designed software to calculate how to best re-order customer transactions to maximise overdraft fees. Banks also generally make it hard/impossible to opt out of overdraft, something that would probably be preferable to many customers. Overdraft fees are a huge source of income these days.
- KennyBlanken 3y agoAdding further: many banks make it difficult or impossible to opt out of overdraft programs. I had to have a huge argument with my local rep. She kept insisting "what if there isn't enough money to cover the transaction?" and did not seem to understand that it was perfectly acceptable to me for such a transaction to fail, rather than succeed and incur a substantial fee.
- hobs 3y agoTo anyone reading this, you often need to write a letter to the bank. I was quite irritated at the time and made the bank manager give me a piece of paper which he then accepted as a "letter". Don't get me started on the level of irritated you need to get a bank manager to void protocol, lol.
- webninja 3y agoYes, especially at the big banks. Either they became big by making more money charging fees or they stopped caring about their customers because they’re too big to care. Smaller online banks & credit unions typically don’t have any fees now.
- elyobo 3y ago> "Now we can put the consumer first and create a level playing field for those businesses that advertise the real price, up front," I hope this means they're banning the common US practice of omitting sales taxes and tips from prices.
- tansan 3y agoThat would be a game changer
- hedora 3y agoDon’t forget the “living wage surcharge” that many cities mandate for restaurant workers! It’s typically not disclosed until after you eat, and varies from city to city.
- p1necone 3y agoThis seems insane to me. Paying your employees a living wage is just another cost of producing the food, it should be part of the menu cost like everything else. Splitting it out is no more sensible that adding "building rent" or "ingredient cost" as extra line items on the final bill.
- pengaru 3y agoIt is insane, and what's even more insane is that restaurants pulling this shit still have customers.
- matthewfcarlson 3y agoI wonder how this will affect the rest of the US even if congress can’t pass something. For example, if I’m in California and I buy something elsewhere am I protected? If I live in Oregon and buy something in California am I covered?
- sircastor 3y agoI also live in Oregon, and I’d be willing to bet that this comes down to a legal argument. Meaning if you don’t think a fee is fair you can pursue legal action. The effective way to regulate this would be have an agency that tracks this stuff and when something is amiss, the offender gets fined. Which is to say that if you wanted to pursue this, I doubt it would be worth your time being out of state.
- starttoaster 3y agoThe most obvious assumption that comes to my mind is that if you're a Californian visiting the rest of the US, you're not covered in local businesses. If you're from the rest of the US visiting California, you're covered by this bill as the business you're purchasing from will likely assume you're a Californian. In a situation where the business finds out your real address (as is the case in many online transactions where you input your billing address) you probably won't be covered unless the wording of the bill specifically forces businesses based out of California to apply this rule to all business they conduct. I'm mostly curious about the online transactions, as that seems like a pretty big motivation to exit California if you're a business owner.
- emodendroket 3y agoIn practice CA rules often get applied nationally because the market is too big to ignore and doing two versions is too much trouble.
- hiatus 3y agoCompanies have been very specific around CCPA requests but that's a bit different price display.
- solardev 3y agoDoes this mean wireless and ISP bills will finally be accurate?
- ytdytvhxgydvhh 3y agoNow are all the folks who defend invasive targeted ads for helping small business reach customers also going to bemoan this? “Think of all the mom-and-pop businesses with deceptive pricing models that will be put out of business by government overreach”?
- yieldcrv 3y agoI think i need to read this bill It seems it taps into a sentiment that’s allll over the place but not based in the reality of this bill
- dang 3y agoSee also https://www.cbsnews.com/news/california-junk-fees-law-governor-gavin-newsom/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/california-junk-fees-law-govern... (via https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37827053 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37827053, but we merged that thread hither). Also related: California AG and state senators introduce bill to ban hidden fees - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34870752 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34870752 - Feb 2023 (377 comments)
- daft_pink 3y agoNow they just need to apply this to doctors.
- zlakdfljk 3y ago[dead]
- bubblethink 3y agoSo now these fees will be presumably less hidden, but does it really change things ? The junk fees appear as a fixed line item on the bill. Instead, much like the side-effects disclaimers, they will appear somewhere on the first screen. Something like, "Uber adds $5 + 25% to your order" in tiny text somewhere.
- belltaco 3y agoThats a big improvement because you can back out before investing all your time configuring your cart if you know fees are higher than worth it to you. Or comparison shop easier.
- sharts 3y ago> This bill would provide that a rental company is not in violation of unlawful advertising, displaying, or offering a price for a good or service for excluding from the advertised, displayed, or offered price of a rental vehicle charges that are disclosed to the consumer in compliance with the above-described provisions. So....basically nothing changes. You're always privy to the disclosure at the time of sale anyway when you see the charges right before you fork up your credit card. Seems like legislators just needed some bullet points for resume padding.
- oldbbsnickname 3y agoWow and not even vetoed by a governor who vetoes things coming from his own party because it's a POTUS election year. I can already see the gotcha capitalism lobby of life insurance, cell phone carriers, spas, cruise ships, yearbook photographers, and payday lenders fighting this in court.
- _nalply 3y agoGood. Capitalism is not the same as a working market. A working market depends on many things, including price transparency. If people don't know how much they are paying for a service of unknown quality, they can't compare products and services. Hidden fees are one way to prevent price transparency, but they are not the only one. It may seem strange, but a working free market needs strong guidance. Laissez-faire capitalism will lead to broken markets with loss of freedom. There are too many ways to impede market competition. Here is a list of some, without claiming to be complete: - Monopolies and oligopolies - Cartels and collusion - Confusion marketing (confusopoly) - Hidden fees - External costs Especially external costs are insidious. This means that a company does not pay for everything it uses. For example, if a company lets it rip and pollutes a river instead of having its wastewater processed, it transfers the cost of pollution to everyone else. When I was younger, I believed that capitalism would solve everything because of the invisible hand, a concept introduced by Adam Smith. The invisible hand is the idea that even if everyone egoistically optimizes their own benefits, there will be a natural collaboration that will achieve progress. Today I know that this can work with a lot of strong guidance. One example: California has banned hidden fees.