18 ms·

How to see bright, vivid images in your mind’s eye (2016)

320 points by kalkr 3y ago

kylebenzle 3y ago
Great post, I wish we had more of these types of pragmatic techniques from zen buddhism/yoga. I've heard of this one as both a way to induce lucid dreaming and as just a yoga meditation but this post does not seem to mention that some people say the best results are often had right before falling asleep.
- Dwewlyo 3y ago
  [flagged]
- Hnrobert42 3y ago
  The images you see just before falling asleep are called hypnagogic images or hypnagogic hallucinations.
- bondarchuk 3y ago
  Hypnagogic state is the only time I can see anything at all so can confirm I guess.
- Zetobal 3y ago
  It's the same for lucid dreaming it works the best if you take a nap 20-30 mins and push caffeine and before the onset you fall asleep again.
- malauxyeux 3y ago
  > pragmatic techniques from zen buddhism/yoga Not Zen, but there's "kasina" meditation that sounds similar to this. You might stare at a light source or a colored disc, then close your eyes and watch the afterimage. Repeat. That's it really – very mechanical. That can lead to wakeful closed-eye hallucinations, some of which are described here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed-eye_hallucination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed-eye_hallucination
CommieBobDole 3y ago
So, wait, are people normally actually seeing images, with their eyes, when they imagine what something looks like? Like, the brown-blackness of the back of your eyelids gets replaced with something you actually see, like it's projected there? I can imagine what something looks like, and I guess I sort of 'see' it, but closing my eyes doesn't make it any more real. It doesn't seem to involve the eyes or any part of the visual system at all - it's somewhere else in my head.
- BizarroLand 3y ago
  No. It's only rarely that vivid. It's more like the memory of an image, but one you may not have seen yet. Like if you imagine a 1950's spaceship, yellow with red stripes and long curving fins resting on a cratered moonscape with astronauts in shiny puffy silver suits holding their glass helmets in their hands as if they can breathe in the vacuum of space smiling brightly with a sign above that reads, "buy astrogum! It's astrolicious!" in the coca-cola font. You won't see that the same way you see the words on the page in front of you, but in that same way that you "see" the hazy memories of your childhood playing with friends, running around, parks and blue skies in the ever-lasting summer of your youth.
- doug-moen 3y ago
  I can imagine imagery in two different ways. 1. One way is the "behind the eyelids" technique, where the imagery seems to be coming from the retina, or at least I experience it that way. I cannot currently generate the high quality photographic imagery of the OP, and even the experience of colour is pretty sketchy. That's today, awake, although sometimes it gets better when I'm in bed and about to fall asleep. Either way, this only works if my eyes are closed, or it's pitch dark. With my eyes open, the signal from my retina washes out the image, which is very dim. One person I met who experiences this calls the experience "phosphenes". The experience doesn't look real, and I have no sense of depth or spatial location, like I do with vision. It is only partially under conscious control. I get images, then I "make suggestions" about what I want to see, and then it kind of drifts in the direction of what I want. 2. The other way works with my eyes open. I can do 3D objects, even set up a wire frame cube spinning around my head. The object can be "inside my mind" with no defined location, or I can locate it in space. I barely have any colour available in this subsystem, but that could be lack of practice. This is under full conscious control. I have no difficulty distinguishing these images from what I am seeing, I experience eyesight and these images as two different mental domains. I just ran a test, and I can do both things at the same time, but it requires a lot of concentration and I'm not good at it. I know from talking to people that there is a lot of variation in how people experience mental imagery. Based on what I've read, LSD and psilocybin hallucinations may be be a more powerful version of "system 1" imagery as described above. That's because: at low doses, you can only see the hallucinations with your eyes closed, and they are only partially under conscious control. (There are instructions on the web on how to influence the imagery.) UPDATE: I wondered whether my system 1 imagery is "in the retina" or "in the visual cortex". As an experiment, I stared at a bright light, then closed my eyes to see the retinal afterimage of the bright light. Everybody gets these afterimages. Then, I was able to modify the afterimage! After some work, I eventually changed the colour of the afterimage and made it into the centre of a flower. To my delight, the flower had an almost photographic quality. This doesn't really prove anything about retina vs visual cortex. But this is a better result than I've had in the past, before I read the ideas in this post. Finally, the OP and video describes "image streaming", which seems to be a more advanced version of what I do when I try to shape a system 1 "retinal" image. Afterimages are one way to produce a seed image. In the past I've just created images starting from a black visual field, but I guess it's easier if you start with a seed. Apparently if you get really good then you can have full conscious control over system 1 mental imagery! I had not previously considered talking out loud to influence the image. Now I'm wondering whether "microdosing", a Silicon valley practice that has been discussed on HN before, would improve your ability to perform "image streaming". Maybe other people with more knowledge of this can comment.
chatmasta 3y ago
The thing I've never understood about aphantasia is the emphasis on closing your eyes. Does it really matter? I can visualize an apple (to borrow the example from the frequently shared meme) whether my eyes are open or closed. It's not like my eyelids are some necessary visual backdrop for visualization.
- sgt 3y ago
  So you can do AR, basically
- shawabawa3 3y ago
  At this point I'm fairly certain aphantasia doesn't really exist (or is extremely rare), but what exists is a disconnect between what people understand the word "visualising" to mean I cannot project an image of an apple into my brain, but I can be aware of what an apple looks like and have that awareness move and rotate the apple. I would never call it visualising though
  - deadbeeves 3y ago
    From talking to people, I would say it exists on a spectrum. I can imagine an apple, the color and texture of its skin, how it feels to touch it, its weightiness, its smell, the sound it'll make when I bite into it, as well as its taste and texture. I can imagine it at different levels of ripeness too, although I don't have the same amount of information for all of them. For me it's so clear that it's almost as good as the real thing. Some people I've talked to said they couldn't do most of that. They said they could think of an apple, but couldn't tell me much more about it, other than that it was an apple. Now, obviously I can't peer into their heads. Were they actually imagining more but were unable to put it into words? Were they underestimating the vividness of what they were imagining? Or were they accurately describing what was in their minds? Although I can't directly experience their minds, there were certainly differences between what each of us could describe.
    - 4star3star 3y ago
      I watched a video from a woman talking about her aphantasia. I was struck by the fact that she is an avid reader and enjoys fiction. She said she processes descriptive text as facts. Like, if she read, "Raindrops glistened in the afternoon light as they rolled off the red maple leafs, falling peacefully to the lush green grass, below," she would just have a list of facts in her head and no visualization. It makes me wonder what such a person would write, themselves. How could they put together a scene?
treme 3y ago
https://old.reddit.com/r/CureAphantasia/ https://old.reddit.com/r/CureAphantasia/ Recommended for aphantasics
- graeme 3y ago
  Did it work for you? How would you sum it up?
  - treme 3y ago
    It's the most detailed open source community of people that are working together to come up with a solution. I haven't dedicated any consistent time/effort towards it, but I developed a much deeper understanding of stages you progress through as you develop your mind's eye. I'm at 3% from 0%, with 100% being able to visualize things with ease like a HUD of sort. 3% is going from complete darkness to just beginning to be able to manipulate small stimulus (while eyes closed) into something bigger / more vivid.
- ricardobeat 3y ago
  Sorry about the rant, but this kind of sub rubs me the wrong way. People quickly develop an entire subculture around something, start using their own insider language (autogogia, prophantasia, hyperphantasia) which quickly loops back onto itself in Google since it was unearthed from a random 1973 paper. Then they go on developing methods and theories without any scientific rigour, and sharing experiences with origin-story undertones. Not to dismiss the whole idea, which I think has very solid ground, but this makes the perfect breeding ground for 'sociogenic ilnesses' like that fake-Tourette's epidemic a couple years ago.
  - treme 3y ago
    The founder of the sub went through their own journey and have been rigorous, transparent about his process and methods. It rubs me the wrong way you are so quick to judge about someone being unscientific all while showing that you didn't even bother spending 5~10 min on his content.
- 3y ago
ChrisClark 3y ago
Thanks for this post. I've never been able to see anything in my mind's eye. When I try really hard I can get the faint impression, more like the image was almost there, but never arrived. I'll give this a try and see if anything ever changes.
spacebacon 3y ago
I thought this was innate for decades … I’ve had a clear minds eye for as long as I can remember. In college a couple decades ago I did Jose Silvas program and some of Monroe Institutes. This is the way to truly enhance your minds eye.
- muixoozie 3y ago
  can you provide links?
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
pizzafeelsright 3y ago
I thought I could use my mind's eye until I read similar threads. I have a vivid imagination but it turns out it's all conceptual. I don't see an apple. I see a mostly circle shape. It's either green or red. Maybe yellow. I can't draw well but I can draw anything. I know the concepts and can poorly draw the approximate.
- nabakin 3y ago
  I find that I visualize things vaguely/abstractly by default but I can put a bit of effort in thinking about the detail of the object I'm trying to imagine and then I can see that detail. So I might imagine an Apple as a circle but if I need it in more detail, I put more effort into it, recalling the detail and able to see the red, the stem, peel it with a small knife, add a chunk taken out because it was bitten, etc.
pharmakom 3y ago
Don’t rub your eyes for any reason (source: my optometrist)
- hosteur 3y ago
  Really. Not for any reason? Please elaborate.
  - buffington 3y ago
    Every eye doctor I've known has also said to never rub your eyes, for any reason. Here's just a short, non-exhaustive list, as to why rubbing your eyes is a bad idea: * it's very easy to scratch your cornea * touching your eyes or eyelids is an easy way to introduce infections * rubbing can increase the pressure on your eyes, which can cause damage * rubbing to try to get something out of your eye risks more damage, as now you're rubbing a foreign body around delicate corneas and such Eyes are also special in that has a dampened immune response. Eyes are relatively fragile as a result. There are times when you want to rub your eyes because they itch. Doing nothing is the best approach. Your eye will work it out, or the urge will go away. Same for when something trivial is in your eye. Your tears will flush it out. For non trivial contamination, use water. I have to assume there are exceptions, but when in doubt, water will flush it out.
    - Noumenon72 3y ago
      Your eyes and nose are the physical openings by which germs can enter your body. Your hands are the part of your body that picks up the most germs. Never touch your eyes with your hands. I do rub/scratch them sometimes, but I use my shirt.
    - moffkalast 3y ago
      If your eyes itch then it's clearly an evolutionary advantage to scratch them. Checkmate doctors. /s
    - Name_Chawps 3y ago
      Alternatively, your eye doctor is exactly the wrong person to ask, because they have an availability bias.
HellDunkel 3y ago
The whole website and all links mentioned here looks as if this was just a hoax but i still like to think this could work.
izoow 3y ago
I wonder if this has something to do with certain people's brains being wired more towards images and others towards sound. I always felt like I'm much better with sound when it comes to recalling things and such.
- nico 3y ago
  Interesting. Another potential spectrum could be people wired more for concrete vs abstract Personally I mostly think and understand the world in terms of abstract concepts, but I know that a lot of people don’t really have or care for the level of abstraction that I’m usually more comfortable with Similar I guess to the spectrum of actual vs ideal
layer8 3y ago
I would be careful with the eye rubbing, as that’s an important risk factor for keratoconus: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6848869/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6848869/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9800344/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9800344/
- drewtato 3y ago
  Maybe this is too obvious to spend words on, but it's really weird that neither actually define eye rubbing, specifically as being with the eyelids closed. The first one even has a section for the definition of eye rubbing and fully avoids defining it.
  - layer8 3y ago
    I don’t think many people would be able to rub their eyes with their eyes open ;), but yes, more precision would be useful.
- i4i 3y ago
  I take the heals of my palms and apply gentle pressure, just long enough to create phonemes. So, not rubbing. (Not that this too might not be a good idea to do too often).
TikiTDO 3y ago
Ooh, this is a nice link. Totally going to add some of this stuff to my practice.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
yummybear 3y ago
It’s amazing how little we know about how others dream and visualize: Do you see 3d or 2d? Is there smells? Are there color? Is there sound? Do people talk? Can you feel touch?
- quickthrower2 3y ago
  Dream: 3d; no; yes; yes; yes; yes (rarely) For the last one, I have made a jolting motion in a dream, like a kick, felt it, and that woke me up.
julianeon 3y ago
Could someone summarize the technique? This was a video tl;dr for me (though I’ll watch it if the summary sounds interesting).
- treme 3y ago
  https://old.reddit.com/r/CureAphantasia/comments/z0clpt/how_to_develop_prophantasic_visualization_part/ https://old.reddit.com/r/CureAphantasia/comments/z0clpt/how_...
- insickness 3y ago
  It's stuff like looking at something for a while and then closing your eyes and trying to see it, etc.
justinlloyd 3y ago
The article kind of comes off as spammy/scammy and I fully expected to reach a point where the author wanted to sell me a course for $99 on how to achieve whatever it was he was hawking. I have a propensity for staring at points in space and daydreaming/visualizing to the point where it thoroughly annoys my wife. Right now I am rotating a small grey elephant wearing blue boots and a red blanket with gold edging on the blanket in my mind's eye whilst staring at the HN web page and there is not a single thing anyone can do to stop me from doing it. It's also free which no doubt irks a number of CEOs and founders who have yet to figure out how to monetize it. I have a family member who describes themselves as "visual primary" but during conversations of what this means woefully admits that they need to "see things" to know what they look like, cannot visualize rotating an elephant nor picture what the underside of a soup bowl might look like if they had never looked under that particular soup bowl but had looked under many other soup bowls throughout their life. I liken the ability to visualize as my first encounter with NeRF "Yes, it's like that! Seeing things from other angles even though you'd never seen that particular angle." The human mind, it is quirky to say the least. Quirky in that I can now rest easy because the amount of HN karma I have accumulated has taken on a pleasant shade rather than the jarring visual noise it previously was when it was below 2000.
- jocaal 3y ago
  > It's also free which no doubt irks a number of CEOs and founders who have yet to figure out how to monetize it. Just wait for Neuralink brain ads, it'l come
  - justinlloyd 3y ago
    I prefer to self host vs running my brain in the cloud. After all, there is no cloud, it's just someone else's brain. Eventually, someone on HN, in a few decades, will admonish with the same fervour at the proposal of self-hosting their dreams as they do when someone proposes running their own email server.
graphe 3y ago
I cured my aphantasia another way. I stopped believing in it. I was asked to visualize something and I could only do it vaguely when I described it. He told me I had weak visualization which showed me it didn't exist. Everyone who claims to have it just has WEAK visualization and trying harder to visualize will give you the same results. It'll take a while, think of it as a muscle. Use it or lose it.
- fileeditview 3y ago
  I love people like you that just dismiss everything that doesn't apply to themselves.. It is clearly a spectrum and if you are the lower end of it, it doesn't help at all to have someone say: "just do it".
voxl 3y ago
I think I have very good visualization skills. To the point where I can solve three dimensional geometry problems in my head with nothing external. However, I never "see" anything with my two eyes in the way I can see an afterglow of a candle or a window, as described in the video. I see with a "third-eye" or a "minds-eye." Never with me real two eyes. This means I can visualize at any point, eyes closed or open. I can transpose an additional image on the scenery around me, and in fact I did that very often in school, playing games on walls in my head. Anything to avoid the lesson. But, is that seeing images in your head, or isn't it? Must you see the image as you would see the afterglow of a window? I've never been able to tease out what people really mean when they say they can visualize.
- HellDunkel 3y ago
  So you can make really good drawings of the things? Like imagine a castle and draw it on a sheet of paper without any other references? I am very skeptical.
  - voxl 3y ago
    No because I don't know how to draw. But I can program in my head and reproduce on a page.
    - HellDunkel 3y ago
      Do you visually see the code in your mind? Do you remember it visually? Hoe does that even make sense?
      - jakefromstatecs 3y ago
        I program in my head, and yes, I often do see the code in my head. In some sense, it's like a spatial experience, where each file is a different "room", and those rooms have contents of the code. When I imagine programming something, I make mental plans of what code goes in specific rooms (Files, or directories), and what that code will roughly look like - At first a rough shape, of a class with particular methods, and over time that resolves into more and more detail such as what the methods will do and how they will interact with other parts. My memory is really bad though, so if I try to come back to this a week later I will have forgotten the whole thing unless I make very detailed notes.
i8comments 3y ago
Is everyone here this credulous? The website even claims it increases your IQ, which is extremely dubious, to say the least. Rubbing your eyes doesnt make you not aphantasic, any more than looking at a bright lightbulb for a few seconds or unblinkingly staring at a single image on a bright tv for a few minutes (which is actually more effective if you want to clearly see colorful and bright shapes with closed eyes -- doesnt change your minds eye, which is different), and whats worse is that it will damage your eye!
- quickthrower2 3y ago
  The technique was passed down from a self-help practitioner and credited to someone with PhD ... sceptitismometer should be high about claims like that. That said if it works to help photography that is a good usage and no harm in trying. If they start saying this helps cure cancer then run.
- jasonlfunk 3y ago
  I think the important part of the technique is talking about what you see, not the actual act of seeing things. He talks about creating brain pathways between the visual and linguistic parts of your brain. It’s those new pathways that are the key.
- drowsspa 3y ago
  Yeah it sounds very scam-like. But it does make me think: IQ tests are basically all about rotating coloured things in your mind. I wonder if being able to visualize them in your head, instead of having to manipulate them with words and algebra like I do, does influence the results.
FriedPickles 3y ago
AKA how to train a generative image model on a biological neural net. Listening to him do it sounds a lot like a description of a diffusion model generating an image from the initial static--surreal.
oh_sigh 3y ago
There was a story about a guy who trained himself to lucid dream about a hundred years ago while he was riding a train, and letting the shadows play off of his closed eyes....anyone know what I'm talking about? Having a hard time googling it, but I wonder if that same technique could be used for improving mental imagery instead of eye rubbing.
- qnleigh 3y ago
  That also sounds safer..
tzs 3y ago
A bit OT: I'm curious what, if anything, people here see when their eyes are closed while falling asleep. I usually see one of the following: 1. Just the brown/black of my eyelids, with some slight variations in darkness. 2. A blob of white light. It looks a lot like what you'd see if you were in a dark room with a sink full of water that is draining, and there was a drop of some glowing dye in the water which is circling the drain and expanding. 3. Gears, pistons, linkages, pulleys, wheels, etc forming elaborate moving mechanisms. I have no idea what the mechanisms are doing or if any of the mechanisms are sensible or even possible. I'm very much not mechanically inclined and so this is the most puzzling nighttime visualization to me. 4. Plants. I seem to be flying low over land with patches of grass, flowers, and trees. The scene is quite detailed, with individual leaves and blades of grass visible, and any gaps between things filled with things farther behind, giving a strong sense of 3D. 5. Animals. Unlike the plants of #4 that I see in a full environment if I see animals they are just kind of there against the brown/black background. Sometimes they are normal animals, and sometimes they are weird creatures that belong in science fiction or mythology. The animals often morph into other animals.
- qingcharles 3y ago
  I've seen none of those things. In fact, I never "see" anything[0] in my mind. I just feel the concept of it without actually seeing a visual image of the thing. [0] except several times while I was in prison and had a lot of time on my hands to daydream -- I randomly conjured up what I would consider "hyper-real" images in my mind for a few seconds each.. a cat, an apple, a wheel spinning down a beach with a ship in the distance. I say "hyper-real" because they were far more stunning than anything I have seen through my eyes. Like my eyes are SD video and this was 8K HDR 3D. I've never been able to recreate this or do it on demand.
- __lain__ 3y ago
  > 3. Gears, pistons, linkages, pulleys, wheels, etc forming elaborate moving mechanisms... This is a really interesting phenomenon. Elaborate machinescapes are present in a lot of psychedelic closed eye visuals. Its unusual because we typically don't have a lot of interaction with these things, yet there's this shared experience. I wonder if the experiences we have had seeing complex machinery in real life have embedded some primal response to them. I commonly see blobs of light, but a particularly frequent recurring visualization is circus imagery. If I'm listening to music I seem to be more prone to seeing something like cardboard cutouts of the Beatles in their Sgt Pepper outfits sort of bouncing up and down moving off to the side.
ogig 3y ago
This one is curious; >Q. If I use a voice recorder, do I have to listen back to what I’ve said? No. I’m not going to pretend that I understand why but it seems that your mind just needs to know what the words are being recorded. You can, of course, listen to the recordings if you want to. Personally, I didn’t bother.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- hansvm 3y ago
  A priori it sounds plausible. Their explanation is that you're exploiting plasticity (neurons that fire together wire together), so the whole point of the exercise would be to ensure you're thinking the right thoughts. Moreover, we know minor differences in circumstances do have huge effects on how we think in a given moment. To the extent the advice is valid though, I imagine there's some significant set of people for whom it won't work. Voice teachers and math professors have a similar task in coming up with metaphors and situations to provoke the right thought patterns and give new ideas a place to take hold, and a defining characteristic of both of those professions is that people are very heterogeneous and aren't usually amenable to a one-size-fits-all metaphor.
laserbeam 3y ago
I hate the writing style. This is the kind of text you normally see from scam artists: "this cool techinque that I'm going to tell you about", "here's a personal story/testimonial", "soon I'll tell you how I did it", "watch this video if you want to learn more", and there's usually also a "buy my course if you really want to learn about it". This is not how one shares knowledge, this is how one sells snake oil. Thus, by default all information shared here should be considered bogus. Every claim needs to be verified (multiple hours of research). As such, I'd rathet disregard the article completely and use actual research on aphantasia as a starting point to learn about it instead.
- drt5b7j 3y ago
  Bingo
- omnicognate 3y ago
  I also hate it, for the same reason. And I hate that having read the "this one neat trick" blurb you then have to hear exactly the same information delivered vocally before getting to the technique. However, this is the first time I've ever seen anybody even suggest a technique that might help with this, and it's something I've come to see as a real limitation. I very badly want a functioning "mind's eye" and if there's any chance practicing this for 10 minutes a day for a few months might achieve it, hell yes I'm going to try. And when he did actually get to the technique, it wasn't "buy my book" or "sign up for this course". It was a simple and complete demonstration of something anyone can do at home for free. I didn't see any means of monetisation beyond views on the video itself, and he's welcome to his slice of my youtube premium. I agree that the style is horrible, and that the information should be assumed to be bogus by default. But, fortunately, checking if there's any value in it for me is a cost-free, risk-free thing I can do in my spare time. Fingers crossed! Edit: Oh, and the whole left brain, right brain thing is disappointing bollocks too. Still, I'm going to try this. Edit 2: BTW, if you do have any serious aphantasia research sources I'd love to know about them. I've seen very little research into it. (And TBH I'm not really convinced it's worth significant research investment, any more than people not being able to whistle or raise one eyebrow is. I don't see myself as having a disorder, just an undeveloped ability.) Edit 3: Somewhat relatedly I have also been mostly unable to hear sounds in my "mind's ear", although I am a keen amateur musician. I can imagine tunes but they are not accompanied by the timbre and richness of actual sounds. They're more of an abstraction. This is something I've made actual progress on, though. As a byproduct of learning sight-singing and transcription (as an adult, starting with movable-do sol-fa), I am able to hear sounds much more convincingly at times. I have to remember to exercise the ability, though, or I fall back to my old ways, and it still takes a lot of effort.
contr-error 3y ago
Rubbing one's eyes is not entirely innocuous, as it can induce or worsen astigmatism.
ilrwbwrkhv 3y ago
Back in the early 2000s when I was growing up, I wanted to increase my IQ. Image streaming was actually one of the techniques that came highly recommended. Mega genius would also suggest this and similar other techniques. Bit nostalgic to see this here.
buro9 3y ago
Describing the technique in text would've been helpful https://sourcesofinsight.com/image-streaming/ https://sourcesofinsight.com/image-streaming/
- theobromananda 3y ago
  I am stumped: how does visualizing a scene in your minds eye and describing it lead to seeing it on the back of your eyelids as the article linked in the title of this comment section claims? And why call that "image streaming" instead of just "describing a visualized scene". Just advertising, right?
fileeditview 3y ago
Great to see this topic on HN(aphantasia). I learned about that about 3-4 years ago from my colleagues. Before that I wasn't aware that people can see images. I certainly couldn't (still cannot). I read a lot about this topic and it's fascinating. This does not only apply to images but also sounds and smells. I cannot "imagine" them too. So I presume that a great musician is able to imagine certain instruments clearly in his head. At least a friend told me that he could do this. And a master chef will probably be able to imagine the taste of different ingredients. I however cannot. At times this realization feels quite sad. I try to however see the benefits to this.. there are some. E.g. I have a great sleep. I always told my wife that I close my eyes and the world is gone. I then can just fall a sleep given that I am tired enough. She never understood that. Were this held me back in my life is drawing and chess playing. I am good chess player on club level but I never managed to play blindfolded more than a few moves. I now know why. I also always needed references before me when drawing. I imagine a good mind's eye could be of great help here. I will certainly try the techniques mentioned in the article/video. But I think if you can learn it depends on whether you have the ability at all. I might have dreamed with pictures very rarely but I am not sure about it. We will see if the technique does something for me.
- withinboredom 3y ago
  I can see images in my head, but never color. I have never, ever been able to imagine any color, at all, in my head. My dreams are even in black and white.
- bergerjac 3y ago
  I used to have have aphantasia. Now, I can visualize and pre-plan projects and events in my mind's eye. To get started I never did any techniques. Instead, I just listened to fantasy & fiction audiobooks (eg by GRRM and Joe Abercrombie). Once I started seeing scenes in my imagination, I made the connection that "This is just like daydreaming or thinking of memories!" Then I took some training on personal growth which practiced changing the size, color, dimensions, etc and now it's become a powerful tool.
aatd86 3y ago
I wonder if this is really real (aphantasia I mean) . I know that it can be blocked so it's probably brain area related. As long as you can remember the shape of objects and recall them to draw on paper as a kid, I think that you probably are capable of conjuring images up your mind (or sound, or perhaps even touch). Then, I have had time I felt my internal visualization was unusually impeded.
- jonplackett 3y ago
  I have aphantasia and it’s definitely a real thing. I realised I have it after seeing it on a daytime TV show when it was first discovered. Before then, like what happened with the writer of this, everyone just dismissed it as nonsense, “of course you can see images in your head!” Finding out it was a condition was a very exciting day. today now also feels like an exciting day!
ergonaught 3y ago
As someone with aphantasia, most of the replies here prompt me to think ugly thoughts about humanity. Judgemental, hateful, repugnant species. There's really no hope for the primate line. With any luck, some thoughtless company will engineer a replacement. If only I could visualize that outcome.
- ratg13 3y ago
  FYI incitement to genocide is a crime under international law. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incitement_to_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incitement_to_genocide
  - ergonaught 3y ago
    I’d like to think that your remarks displayed a special kind of horrifying stupidity. Unfortunately it seems all too common to qualify as special.
    - ratg13 3y ago
      Says the person that wants to visualize the “end of the primate line” Please keep this rhetoric localized to Stormfront or wherever you generally hang out online.
  - anonym29 3y ago
    Go be a troll somewhere else.
- fransje26 3y ago
  Well, the author of the article is not trying to sell you anything, so why don't you let the haters be haters, and give it a try. The best that can happen is that it might help. The worse that can happen is that you are going to "waste" some time. He miss every shot you don't take.
  - bstnbstn 3y ago
    For me, the worst would be to be able to visualise but find it distracting, annoying or traumatic. Or if I could only imagine dim and vague images: not helpful, but also impossible to turn off.
chromoblob 3y ago
I wonder how aphantasia and synesthesia are related. Are there many people who have both?
temp0826 3y ago
Despite the awful article I'm going to give this a try. I work at an ayahuasca retreat and get to drink a couple times a week, but it's pretty rare for me to get clear visions with it and I wonder if this could help. I do find it interesting that speaking out loud is part of it; it reminds me of how the medicine songs (icaros) are used- which are often very literal instructions of what's going on in the shaman's visual/felt experience. I have considered looking more deeply into Vajrayana Buddhist practices like diety yoga (visualizing dieties in great detail with persistence, eventually visualizing oneself as the diety) to work on this, but haven't come across too many resources.
ncfausti 3y ago
This reminds me of a time when I was meditating in my dimly lit office after work some years ago. For context, I had been meditating daily for 20-30 minutes quite consistently at the time. During this session, about 15 minutes in I had the sensation of "seeing with my eyes closed". I could see very clearly my workspace, desk, monitors, keyboard, etc. It was one of the most remarkable experiences of my life. I am wondering now if this was related to a sudden lapse in aphantasia (which it seems like I have), a closed eye hallucination (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed-eye_hallucination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed-eye_hallucination), both, or something else?
- perrygeo 3y ago
  What's the distinction between vivid mental imagery and a closed-eye hallucination? I have aphantasia too (what I used to call "the opposite of a photographic memory") and it always struck me as odd that seeing imagery with closed eyes is considered normal. We put people in mental institutions for hearing voices in their head, but we get a pass if we're hallucinating a visual scene. My theory is that it's a spectrum from "I only see images when photons hit my eyes" to "I see god right here in front of me." and somewhere on that line is the optimal amount of visual hallucination. It certainly serves some evolutionary advantage.
  - doug-moen 3y ago
    There's a distinction between delirium, being in a delusional state, where you can't tell the difference between fantasy and reality, which is pathological, vs the normal everyday action of replaying a sensory memory in your head, or imagining sensory input in order to explore an idea. Delusional states may or may not involve a sensory component. It's not a spectrum from one to the other. The term "hallucination" is tricky because the usual connotation is that it is part of a delusion, whereas some people can generate "closed-eye hallucinations" (or whatever you want to call it) as an alternative kind of mental imagery. For me personally, the distinction between ordinary "mental imagery" vs "closed-eye hallucinations" that I generate under conscious control is that they are subjectively quite different. The former feel like they are in a different "mental domain" than visual input, and I can perceive this imagery with my eyes open. Another commenter in this thread called this a third frame buffer in their head, separate from their eyes. The latter kind of imagery feels like it is coming from my retina, but it's very dim, and I can only see it with my eyes closed, or in a completely dark room. Apparently, visual input from my retina interferes with this second kind of imagery. And it's this kind of imagery that the OP discusses. You can train yourself to experience it. I've managed to improve both kinds of mental imagery by practicing.
qnleigh 3y ago
Tangential but hopefully related enough to be of interest; is there similar variability with the "mind's ear?" If you imagine someone saying "hello," does it make sense to then ask things like whether the voice was male or female?Personally, I can 'hear' imagined sounds in quite a lot of detail. I'm not aphantasic, but images are less vivid than audio for me. Oddly, I realized a few years ago that most of my dreams have no direct audio content. There are no sounds when people talk ; speech is implicit. I asked around and my impression is that this is unusual. However every once in a while I will have a dream with incredibly vivid, apparently novel music, as if every note on every instrument is actually being played in my head. I still remember the main melody from the last song that I dreamt this way.
i4i 3y ago
Having only discovered Aphantasia in my 6th decade on the planet, it's safe to say that you can't miss what you never had. That said, in a FB forum that discusses Aphantasia, a few people who previously had the ability to 'see memories', were devastated by the (stroke) loss of it. Upon describing my situation, one friend immediately asked incredulously, "How do you jerk off?" I'm intrigued with the article. That a "Mind's Eye" could be developed is an exciting possibility. BTW, This is a tight, short, Hank Green video that I send to folks who have no idea what I'm talking about. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A91tvp0b1fY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A91tvp0b1fY

320 points by kalkr 3y ago

Great post, I wish we had more of these types of pragmatic techniques from zen buddhism/yoga. I've heard of this one as both a way to induce lucid dreaming and as just a yoga meditation but this post does not seem to mention that some people say the best results are often had right before falling asleep.

Dwewlyo 3y ago
[flagged]
Hnrobert42 3y ago
The images you see just before falling asleep are called hypnagogic images or hypnagogic hallucinations.
bondarchuk 3y ago
Hypnagogic state is the only time I can see anything at all so can confirm I guess.
Zetobal 3y ago
It's the same for lucid dreaming it works the best if you take a nap 20-30 mins and push caffeine and before the onset you fall asleep again.
malauxyeux 3y ago
> pragmatic techniques from zen buddhism/yoga Not Zen, but there's "kasina" meditation that sounds similar to this. You might stare at a light source or a colored disc, then close your eyes and watch the afterimage. Repeat. That's it really – very mechanical. That can lead to wakeful closed-eye hallucinations, some of which are described here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed-eye_hallucination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed-eye_hallucination

CommieBobDole 3y ago

So, wait, are people normally actually seeing images, with their eyes, when they imagine what something looks like? Like, the brown-blackness of the back of your eyelids gets replaced with something you actually see, like it's projected there? I can imagine what something looks like, and I guess I sort of 'see' it, but closing my eyes doesn't make it any more real. It doesn't seem to involve the eyes or any part of the visual system at all - it's somewhere else in my head.

BizarroLand 3y ago
No. It's only rarely that vivid. It's more like the memory of an image, but one you may not have seen yet. Like if you imagine a 1950's spaceship, yellow with red stripes and long curving fins resting on a cratered moonscape with astronauts in shiny puffy silver suits holding their glass helmets in their hands as if they can breathe in the vacuum of space smiling brightly with a sign above that reads, "buy astrogum! It's astrolicious!" in the coca-cola font. You won't see that the same way you see the words on the page in front of you, but in that same way that you "see" the hazy memories of your childhood playing with friends, running around, parks and blue skies in the ever-lasting summer of your youth.
doug-moen 3y ago
I can imagine imagery in two different ways. 1. One way is the "behind the eyelids" technique, where the imagery seems to be coming from the retina, or at least I experience it that way. I cannot currently generate the high quality photographic imagery of the OP, and even the experience of colour is pretty sketchy. That's today, awake, although sometimes it gets better when I'm in bed and about to fall asleep. Either way, this only works if my eyes are closed, or it's pitch dark. With my eyes open, the signal from my retina washes out the image, which is very dim. One person I met who experiences this calls the experience "phosphenes". The experience doesn't look real, and I have no sense of depth or spatial location, like I do with vision. It is only partially under conscious control. I get images, then I "make suggestions" about what I want to see, and then it kind of drifts in the direction of what I want. 2. The other way works with my eyes open. I can do 3D objects, even set up a wire frame cube spinning around my head. The object can be "inside my mind" with no defined location, or I can locate it in space. I barely have any colour available in this subsystem, but that could be lack of practice. This is under full conscious control. I have no difficulty distinguishing these images from what I am seeing, I experience eyesight and these images as two different mental domains. I just ran a test, and I can do both things at the same time, but it requires a lot of concentration and I'm not good at it. I know from talking to people that there is a lot of variation in how people experience mental imagery. Based on what I've read, LSD and psilocybin hallucinations may be be a more powerful version of "system 1" imagery as described above. That's because: at low doses, you can only see the hallucinations with your eyes closed, and they are only partially under conscious control. (There are instructions on the web on how to influence the imagery.) UPDATE: I wondered whether my system 1 imagery is "in the retina" or "in the visual cortex". As an experiment, I stared at a bright light, then closed my eyes to see the retinal afterimage of the bright light. Everybody gets these afterimages. Then, I was able to modify the afterimage! After some work, I eventually changed the colour of the afterimage and made it into the centre of a flower. To my delight, the flower had an almost photographic quality. This doesn't really prove anything about retina vs visual cortex. But this is a better result than I've had in the past, before I read the ideas in this post. Finally, the OP and video describes "image streaming", which seems to be a more advanced version of what I do when I try to shape a system 1 "retinal" image. Afterimages are one way to produce a seed image. In the past I've just created images starting from a black visual field, but I guess it's easier if you start with a seed. Apparently if you get really good then you can have full conscious control over system 1 mental imagery! I had not previously considered talking out loud to influence the image. Now I'm wondering whether "microdosing", a Silicon valley practice that has been discussed on HN before, would improve your ability to perform "image streaming". Maybe other people with more knowledge of this can comment.

chatmasta 3y ago

The thing I've never understood about aphantasia is the emphasis on closing your eyes. Does it really matter? I can visualize an apple (to borrow the example from the frequently shared meme) whether my eyes are open or closed. It's not like my eyelids are some necessary visual backdrop for visualization.

sgt 3y ago
So you can do AR, basically
shawabawa3 3y ago
At this point I'm fairly certain aphantasia doesn't really exist (or is extremely rare), but what exists is a disconnect between what people understand the word "visualising" to mean I cannot project an image of an apple into my brain, but I can be aware of what an apple looks like and have that awareness move and rotate the apple. I would never call it visualising though
- deadbeeves 3y ago
  From talking to people, I would say it exists on a spectrum. I can imagine an apple, the color and texture of its skin, how it feels to touch it, its weightiness, its smell, the sound it'll make when I bite into it, as well as its taste and texture. I can imagine it at different levels of ripeness too, although I don't have the same amount of information for all of them. For me it's so clear that it's almost as good as the real thing. Some people I've talked to said they couldn't do most of that. They said they could think of an apple, but couldn't tell me much more about it, other than that it was an apple. Now, obviously I can't peer into their heads. Were they actually imagining more but were unable to put it into words? Were they underestimating the vividness of what they were imagining? Or were they accurately describing what was in their minds? Although I can't directly experience their minds, there were certainly differences between what each of us could describe.
  - 4star3star 3y ago
    I watched a video from a woman talking about her aphantasia. I was struck by the fact that she is an avid reader and enjoys fiction. She said she processes descriptive text as facts. Like, if she read, "Raindrops glistened in the afternoon light as they rolled off the red maple leafs, falling peacefully to the lush green grass, below," she would just have a list of facts in her head and no visualization. It makes me wonder what such a person would write, themselves. How could they put together a scene?

treme 3y ago

https://old.reddit.com/r/CureAphantasia/ https://old.reddit.com/r/CureAphantasia/ Recommended for aphantasics

graeme 3y ago
Did it work for you? How would you sum it up?
- treme 3y ago
  It's the most detailed open source community of people that are working together to come up with a solution. I haven't dedicated any consistent time/effort towards it, but I developed a much deeper understanding of stages you progress through as you develop your mind's eye. I'm at 3% from 0%, with 100% being able to visualize things with ease like a HUD of sort. 3% is going from complete darkness to just beginning to be able to manipulate small stimulus (while eyes closed) into something bigger / more vivid.
ricardobeat 3y ago
Sorry about the rant, but this kind of sub rubs me the wrong way. People quickly develop an entire subculture around something, start using their own insider language (autogogia, prophantasia, hyperphantasia) which quickly loops back onto itself in Google since it was unearthed from a random 1973 paper. Then they go on developing methods and theories without any scientific rigour, and sharing experiences with origin-story undertones. Not to dismiss the whole idea, which I think has very solid ground, but this makes the perfect breeding ground for 'sociogenic ilnesses' like that fake-Tourette's epidemic a couple years ago.
- treme 3y ago
  The founder of the sub went through their own journey and have been rigorous, transparent about his process and methods. It rubs me the wrong way you are so quick to judge about someone being unscientific all while showing that you didn't even bother spending 5~10 min on his content.
3y ago

ChrisClark 3y ago

Thanks for this post. I've never been able to see anything in my mind's eye. When I try really hard I can get the faint impression, more like the image was almost there, but never arrived. I'll give this a try and see if anything ever changes.

spacebacon 3y ago

I thought this was innate for decades … I’ve had a clear minds eye for as long as I can remember. In college a couple decades ago I did Jose Silvas program and some of Monroe Institutes. This is the way to truly enhance your minds eye.

muixoozie 3y ago
can you provide links?

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

pizzafeelsright 3y ago

I thought I could use my mind's eye until I read similar threads. I have a vivid imagination but it turns out it's all conceptual. I don't see an apple. I see a mostly circle shape. It's either green or red. Maybe yellow. I can't draw well but I can draw anything. I know the concepts and can poorly draw the approximate.

nabakin 3y ago
I find that I visualize things vaguely/abstractly by default but I can put a bit of effort in thinking about the detail of the object I'm trying to imagine and then I can see that detail. So I might imagine an Apple as a circle but if I need it in more detail, I put more effort into it, recalling the detail and able to see the red, the stem, peel it with a small knife, add a chunk taken out because it was bitten, etc.

pharmakom 3y ago

Don’t rub your eyes for any reason (source: my optometrist)

hosteur 3y ago
Really. Not for any reason? Please elaborate.
- buffington 3y ago
  Every eye doctor I've known has also said to never rub your eyes, for any reason. Here's just a short, non-exhaustive list, as to why rubbing your eyes is a bad idea: * it's very easy to scratch your cornea * touching your eyes or eyelids is an easy way to introduce infections * rubbing can increase the pressure on your eyes, which can cause damage * rubbing to try to get something out of your eye risks more damage, as now you're rubbing a foreign body around delicate corneas and such Eyes are also special in that has a dampened immune response. Eyes are relatively fragile as a result. There are times when you want to rub your eyes because they itch. Doing nothing is the best approach. Your eye will work it out, or the urge will go away. Same for when something trivial is in your eye. Your tears will flush it out. For non trivial contamination, use water. I have to assume there are exceptions, but when in doubt, water will flush it out.
  - Noumenon72 3y ago
    Your eyes and nose are the physical openings by which germs can enter your body. Your hands are the part of your body that picks up the most germs. Never touch your eyes with your hands. I do rub/scratch them sometimes, but I use my shirt.
  - moffkalast 3y ago
    If your eyes itch then it's clearly an evolutionary advantage to scratch them. Checkmate doctors. /s
  - Name_Chawps 3y ago
    Alternatively, your eye doctor is exactly the wrong person to ask, because they have an availability bias.

HellDunkel 3y ago

The whole website and all links mentioned here looks as if this was just a hoax but i still like to think this could work.

izoow 3y ago

I wonder if this has something to do with certain people's brains being wired more towards images and others towards sound. I always felt like I'm much better with sound when it comes to recalling things and such.

nico 3y ago
Interesting. Another potential spectrum could be people wired more for concrete vs abstract Personally I mostly think and understand the world in terms of abstract concepts, but I know that a lot of people don’t really have or care for the level of abstraction that I’m usually more comfortable with Similar I guess to the spectrum of actual vs ideal

layer8 3y ago

I would be careful with the eye rubbing, as that’s an important risk factor for keratoconus: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6848869/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6848869/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9800344/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9800344/

drewtato 3y ago
Maybe this is too obvious to spend words on, but it's really weird that neither actually define eye rubbing, specifically as being with the eyelids closed. The first one even has a section for the definition of eye rubbing and fully avoids defining it.
- layer8 3y ago
  I don’t think many people would be able to rub their eyes with their eyes open ;), but yes, more precision would be useful.
i4i 3y ago
I take the heals of my palms and apply gentle pressure, just long enough to create phonemes. So, not rubbing. (Not that this too might not be a good idea to do too often).

TikiTDO 3y ago

Ooh, this is a nice link. Totally going to add some of this stuff to my practice.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

yummybear 3y ago

It’s amazing how little we know about how others dream and visualize: Do you see 3d or 2d? Is there smells? Are there color? Is there sound? Do people talk? Can you feel touch?

quickthrower2 3y ago
Dream: 3d; no; yes; yes; yes; yes (rarely) For the last one, I have made a jolting motion in a dream, like a kick, felt it, and that woke me up.

julianeon 3y ago

Could someone summarize the technique? This was a video tl;dr for me (though I’ll watch it if the summary sounds interesting).

treme 3y ago
https://old.reddit.com/r/CureAphantasia/comments/z0clpt/how_to_develop_prophantasic_visualization_part/ https://old.reddit.com/r/CureAphantasia/comments/z0clpt/how_...
insickness 3y ago
It's stuff like looking at something for a while and then closing your eyes and trying to see it, etc.

justinlloyd 3y ago

The article kind of comes off as spammy/scammy and I fully expected to reach a point where the author wanted to sell me a course for $99 on how to achieve whatever it was he was hawking. I have a propensity for staring at points in space and daydreaming/visualizing to the point where it thoroughly annoys my wife. Right now I am rotating a small grey elephant wearing blue boots and a red blanket with gold edging on the blanket in my mind's eye whilst staring at the HN web page and there is not a single thing anyone can do to stop me from doing it. It's also free which no doubt irks a number of CEOs and founders who have yet to figure out how to monetize it. I have a family member who describes themselves as "visual primary" but during conversations of what this means woefully admits that they need to "see things" to know what they look like, cannot visualize rotating an elephant nor picture what the underside of a soup bowl might look like if they had never looked under that particular soup bowl but had looked under many other soup bowls throughout their life. I liken the ability to visualize as my first encounter with NeRF "Yes, it's like that! Seeing things from other angles even though you'd never seen that particular angle." The human mind, it is quirky to say the least. Quirky in that I can now rest easy because the amount of HN karma I have accumulated has taken on a pleasant shade rather than the jarring visual noise it previously was when it was below 2000.

jocaal 3y ago
> It's also free which no doubt irks a number of CEOs and founders who have yet to figure out how to monetize it. Just wait for Neuralink brain ads, it'l come
- justinlloyd 3y ago
  I prefer to self host vs running my brain in the cloud. After all, there is no cloud, it's just someone else's brain. Eventually, someone on HN, in a few decades, will admonish with the same fervour at the proposal of self-hosting their dreams as they do when someone proposes running their own email server.

graphe 3y ago

I cured my aphantasia another way. I stopped believing in it. I was asked to visualize something and I could only do it vaguely when I described it. He told me I had weak visualization which showed me it didn't exist. Everyone who claims to have it just has WEAK visualization and trying harder to visualize will give you the same results. It'll take a while, think of it as a muscle. Use it or lose it.

fileeditview 3y ago
I love people like you that just dismiss everything that doesn't apply to themselves.. It is clearly a spectrum and if you are the lower end of it, it doesn't help at all to have someone say: "just do it".

voxl 3y ago

I think I have very good visualization skills. To the point where I can solve three dimensional geometry problems in my head with nothing external. However, I never "see" anything with my two eyes in the way I can see an afterglow of a candle or a window, as described in the video. I see with a "third-eye" or a "minds-eye." Never with me real two eyes. This means I can visualize at any point, eyes closed or open. I can transpose an additional image on the scenery around me, and in fact I did that very often in school, playing games on walls in my head. Anything to avoid the lesson. But, is that seeing images in your head, or isn't it? Must you see the image as you would see the afterglow of a window? I've never been able to tease out what people really mean when they say they can visualize.

HellDunkel 3y ago
So you can make really good drawings of the things? Like imagine a castle and draw it on a sheet of paper without any other references? I am very skeptical.
- voxl 3y ago
  No because I don't know how to draw. But I can program in my head and reproduce on a page.
  - HellDunkel 3y ago
    Do you visually see the code in your mind? Do you remember it visually? Hoe does that even make sense?
    - jakefromstatecs 3y ago
      I program in my head, and yes, I often do see the code in my head. In some sense, it's like a spatial experience, where each file is a different "room", and those rooms have contents of the code. When I imagine programming something, I make mental plans of what code goes in specific rooms (Files, or directories), and what that code will roughly look like - At first a rough shape, of a class with particular methods, and over time that resolves into more and more detail such as what the methods will do and how they will interact with other parts. My memory is really bad though, so if I try to come back to this a week later I will have forgotten the whole thing unless I make very detailed notes.

i8comments 3y ago

Is everyone here this credulous? The website even claims it increases your IQ, which is extremely dubious, to say the least. Rubbing your eyes doesnt make you not aphantasic, any more than looking at a bright lightbulb for a few seconds or unblinkingly staring at a single image on a bright tv for a few minutes (which is actually more effective if you want to clearly see colorful and bright shapes with closed eyes -- doesnt change your minds eye, which is different), and whats worse is that it will damage your eye!

quickthrower2 3y ago
The technique was passed down from a self-help practitioner and credited to someone with PhD ... sceptitismometer should be high about claims like that. That said if it works to help photography that is a good usage and no harm in trying. If they start saying this helps cure cancer then run.
jasonlfunk 3y ago
I think the important part of the technique is talking about what you see, not the actual act of seeing things. He talks about creating brain pathways between the visual and linguistic parts of your brain. It’s those new pathways that are the key.
drowsspa 3y ago
Yeah it sounds very scam-like. But it does make me think: IQ tests are basically all about rotating coloured things in your mind. I wonder if being able to visualize them in your head, instead of having to manipulate them with words and algebra like I do, does influence the results.

FriedPickles 3y ago

AKA how to train a generative image model on a biological neural net. Listening to him do it sounds a lot like a description of a diffusion model generating an image from the initial static--surreal.

oh_sigh 3y ago

There was a story about a guy who trained himself to lucid dream about a hundred years ago while he was riding a train, and letting the shadows play off of his closed eyes....anyone know what I'm talking about? Having a hard time googling it, but I wonder if that same technique could be used for improving mental imagery instead of eye rubbing.

qnleigh 3y ago
That also sounds safer..

tzs 3y ago

A bit OT: I'm curious what, if anything, people here see when their eyes are closed while falling asleep. I usually see one of the following: 1. Just the brown/black of my eyelids, with some slight variations in darkness. 2. A blob of white light. It looks a lot like what you'd see if you were in a dark room with a sink full of water that is draining, and there was a drop of some glowing dye in the water which is circling the drain and expanding. 3. Gears, pistons, linkages, pulleys, wheels, etc forming elaborate moving mechanisms. I have no idea what the mechanisms are doing or if any of the mechanisms are sensible or even possible. I'm very much not mechanically inclined and so this is the most puzzling nighttime visualization to me. 4. Plants. I seem to be flying low over land with patches of grass, flowers, and trees. The scene is quite detailed, with individual leaves and blades of grass visible, and any gaps between things filled with things farther behind, giving a strong sense of 3D. 5. Animals. Unlike the plants of #4 that I see in a full environment if I see animals they are just kind of there against the brown/black background. Sometimes they are normal animals, and sometimes they are weird creatures that belong in science fiction or mythology. The animals often morph into other animals.

qingcharles 3y ago
I've seen none of those things. In fact, I never "see" anything[0] in my mind. I just feel the concept of it without actually seeing a visual image of the thing. [0] except several times while I was in prison and had a lot of time on my hands to daydream -- I randomly conjured up what I would consider "hyper-real" images in my mind for a few seconds each.. a cat, an apple, a wheel spinning down a beach with a ship in the distance. I say "hyper-real" because they were far more stunning than anything I have seen through my eyes. Like my eyes are SD video and this was 8K HDR 3D. I've never been able to recreate this or do it on demand.
__lain__ 3y ago
> 3. Gears, pistons, linkages, pulleys, wheels, etc forming elaborate moving mechanisms... This is a really interesting phenomenon. Elaborate machinescapes are present in a lot of psychedelic closed eye visuals. Its unusual because we typically don't have a lot of interaction with these things, yet there's this shared experience. I wonder if the experiences we have had seeing complex machinery in real life have embedded some primal response to them. I commonly see blobs of light, but a particularly frequent recurring visualization is circus imagery. If I'm listening to music I seem to be more prone to seeing something like cardboard cutouts of the Beatles in their Sgt Pepper outfits sort of bouncing up and down moving off to the side.

ogig 3y ago

This one is curious; >Q. If I use a voice recorder, do I have to listen back to what I’ve said? No. I’m not going to pretend that I understand why but it seems that your mind just needs to know what the words are being recorded. You can, of course, listen to the recordings if you want to. Personally, I didn’t bother.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
hansvm 3y ago
A priori it sounds plausible. Their explanation is that you're exploiting plasticity (neurons that fire together wire together), so the whole point of the exercise would be to ensure you're thinking the right thoughts. Moreover, we know minor differences in circumstances do have huge effects on how we think in a given moment. To the extent the advice is valid though, I imagine there's some significant set of people for whom it won't work. Voice teachers and math professors have a similar task in coming up with metaphors and situations to provoke the right thought patterns and give new ideas a place to take hold, and a defining characteristic of both of those professions is that people are very heterogeneous and aren't usually amenable to a one-size-fits-all metaphor.

laserbeam 3y ago

I hate the writing style. This is the kind of text you normally see from scam artists: "this cool techinque that I'm going to tell you about", "here's a personal story/testimonial", "soon I'll tell you how I did it", "watch this video if you want to learn more", and there's usually also a "buy my course if you really want to learn about it". This is not how one shares knowledge, this is how one sells snake oil. Thus, by default all information shared here should be considered bogus. Every claim needs to be verified (multiple hours of research). As such, I'd rathet disregard the article completely and use actual research on aphantasia as a starting point to learn about it instead.

drt5b7j 3y ago
Bingo
omnicognate 3y ago
I also hate it, for the same reason. And I hate that having read the "this one neat trick" blurb you then have to hear exactly the same information delivered vocally before getting to the technique. However, this is the first time I've ever seen anybody even suggest a technique that might help with this, and it's something I've come to see as a real limitation. I very badly want a functioning "mind's eye" and if there's any chance practicing this for 10 minutes a day for a few months might achieve it, hell yes I'm going to try. And when he did actually get to the technique, it wasn't "buy my book" or "sign up for this course". It was a simple and complete demonstration of something anyone can do at home for free. I didn't see any means of monetisation beyond views on the video itself, and he's welcome to his slice of my youtube premium. I agree that the style is horrible, and that the information should be assumed to be bogus by default. But, fortunately, checking if there's any value in it for me is a cost-free, risk-free thing I can do in my spare time. Fingers crossed! Edit: Oh, and the whole left brain, right brain thing is disappointing bollocks too. Still, I'm going to try this. Edit 2: BTW, if you do have any serious aphantasia research sources I'd love to know about them. I've seen very little research into it. (And TBH I'm not really convinced it's worth significant research investment, any more than people not being able to whistle or raise one eyebrow is. I don't see myself as having a disorder, just an undeveloped ability.) Edit 3: Somewhat relatedly I have also been mostly unable to hear sounds in my "mind's ear", although I am a keen amateur musician. I can imagine tunes but they are not accompanied by the timbre and richness of actual sounds. They're more of an abstraction. This is something I've made actual progress on, though. As a byproduct of learning sight-singing and transcription (as an adult, starting with movable-do sol-fa), I am able to hear sounds much more convincingly at times. I have to remember to exercise the ability, though, or I fall back to my old ways, and it still takes a lot of effort.

contr-error 3y ago

Rubbing one's eyes is not entirely innocuous, as it can induce or worsen astigmatism.

ilrwbwrkhv 3y ago

Back in the early 2000s when I was growing up, I wanted to increase my IQ. Image streaming was actually one of the techniques that came highly recommended. Mega genius would also suggest this and similar other techniques. Bit nostalgic to see this here.

buro9 3y ago

Describing the technique in text would've been helpful https://sourcesofinsight.com/image-streaming/ https://sourcesofinsight.com/image-streaming/

theobromananda 3y ago
I am stumped: how does visualizing a scene in your minds eye and describing it lead to seeing it on the back of your eyelids as the article linked in the title of this comment section claims? And why call that "image streaming" instead of just "describing a visualized scene". Just advertising, right?

fileeditview 3y ago

Great to see this topic on HN(aphantasia). I learned about that about 3-4 years ago from my colleagues. Before that I wasn't aware that people can see images. I certainly couldn't (still cannot). I read a lot about this topic and it's fascinating. This does not only apply to images but also sounds and smells. I cannot "imagine" them too. So I presume that a great musician is able to imagine certain instruments clearly in his head. At least a friend told me that he could do this. And a master chef will probably be able to imagine the taste of different ingredients. I however cannot. At times this realization feels quite sad. I try to however see the benefits to this.. there are some. E.g. I have a great sleep. I always told my wife that I close my eyes and the world is gone. I then can just fall a sleep given that I am tired enough. She never understood that. Were this held me back in my life is drawing and chess playing. I am good chess player on club level but I never managed to play blindfolded more than a few moves. I now know why. I also always needed references before me when drawing. I imagine a good mind's eye could be of great help here. I will certainly try the techniques mentioned in the article/video. But I think if you can learn it depends on whether you have the ability at all. I might have dreamed with pictures very rarely but I am not sure about it. We will see if the technique does something for me.

withinboredom 3y ago
I can see images in my head, but never color. I have never, ever been able to imagine any color, at all, in my head. My dreams are even in black and white.
bergerjac 3y ago
I used to have have aphantasia. Now, I can visualize and pre-plan projects and events in my mind's eye. To get started I never did any techniques. Instead, I just listened to fantasy & fiction audiobooks (eg by GRRM and Joe Abercrombie). Once I started seeing scenes in my imagination, I made the connection that "This is just like daydreaming or thinking of memories!" Then I took some training on personal growth which practiced changing the size, color, dimensions, etc and now it's become a powerful tool.

aatd86 3y ago

I wonder if this is really real (aphantasia I mean) . I know that it can be blocked so it's probably brain area related. As long as you can remember the shape of objects and recall them to draw on paper as a kid, I think that you probably are capable of conjuring images up your mind (or sound, or perhaps even touch). Then, I have had time I felt my internal visualization was unusually impeded.

jonplackett 3y ago
I have aphantasia and it’s definitely a real thing. I realised I have it after seeing it on a daytime TV show when it was first discovered. Before then, like what happened with the writer of this, everyone just dismissed it as nonsense, “of course you can see images in your head!” Finding out it was a condition was a very exciting day. today now also feels like an exciting day!

ergonaught 3y ago

As someone with aphantasia, most of the replies here prompt me to think ugly thoughts about humanity. Judgemental, hateful, repugnant species. There's really no hope for the primate line. With any luck, some thoughtless company will engineer a replacement. If only I could visualize that outcome.

ratg13 3y ago
FYI incitement to genocide is a crime under international law. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incitement_to_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incitement_to_genocide
- ergonaught 3y ago
  I’d like to think that your remarks displayed a special kind of horrifying stupidity. Unfortunately it seems all too common to qualify as special.
  - ratg13 3y ago
    Says the person that wants to visualize the “end of the primate line” Please keep this rhetoric localized to Stormfront or wherever you generally hang out online.
- anonym29 3y ago
  Go be a troll somewhere else.
fransje26 3y ago
Well, the author of the article is not trying to sell you anything, so why don't you let the haters be haters, and give it a try. The best that can happen is that it might help. The worse that can happen is that you are going to "waste" some time. He miss every shot you don't take.
- bstnbstn 3y ago
  For me, the worst would be to be able to visualise but find it distracting, annoying or traumatic. Or if I could only imagine dim and vague images: not helpful, but also impossible to turn off.

chromoblob 3y ago

I wonder how aphantasia and synesthesia are related. Are there many people who have both?

temp0826 3y ago

Despite the awful article I'm going to give this a try. I work at an ayahuasca retreat and get to drink a couple times a week, but it's pretty rare for me to get clear visions with it and I wonder if this could help. I do find it interesting that speaking out loud is part of it; it reminds me of how the medicine songs (icaros) are used- which are often very literal instructions of what's going on in the shaman's visual/felt experience. I have considered looking more deeply into Vajrayana Buddhist practices like diety yoga (visualizing dieties in great detail with persistence, eventually visualizing oneself as the diety) to work on this, but haven't come across too many resources.

ncfausti 3y ago

This reminds me of a time when I was meditating in my dimly lit office after work some years ago. For context, I had been meditating daily for 20-30 minutes quite consistently at the time. During this session, about 15 minutes in I had the sensation of "seeing with my eyes closed". I could see very clearly my workspace, desk, monitors, keyboard, etc. It was one of the most remarkable experiences of my life. I am wondering now if this was related to a sudden lapse in aphantasia (which it seems like I have), a closed eye hallucination (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed-eye_hallucination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed-eye_hallucination), both, or something else?

perrygeo 3y ago
What's the distinction between vivid mental imagery and a closed-eye hallucination? I have aphantasia too (what I used to call "the opposite of a photographic memory") and it always struck me as odd that seeing imagery with closed eyes is considered normal. We put people in mental institutions for hearing voices in their head, but we get a pass if we're hallucinating a visual scene. My theory is that it's a spectrum from "I only see images when photons hit my eyes" to "I see god right here in front of me." and somewhere on that line is the optimal amount of visual hallucination. It certainly serves some evolutionary advantage.
- doug-moen 3y ago
  There's a distinction between delirium, being in a delusional state, where you can't tell the difference between fantasy and reality, which is pathological, vs the normal everyday action of replaying a sensory memory in your head, or imagining sensory input in order to explore an idea. Delusional states may or may not involve a sensory component. It's not a spectrum from one to the other. The term "hallucination" is tricky because the usual connotation is that it is part of a delusion, whereas some people can generate "closed-eye hallucinations" (or whatever you want to call it) as an alternative kind of mental imagery. For me personally, the distinction between ordinary "mental imagery" vs "closed-eye hallucinations" that I generate under conscious control is that they are subjectively quite different. The former feel like they are in a different "mental domain" than visual input, and I can perceive this imagery with my eyes open. Another commenter in this thread called this a third frame buffer in their head, separate from their eyes. The latter kind of imagery feels like it is coming from my retina, but it's very dim, and I can only see it with my eyes closed, or in a completely dark room. Apparently, visual input from my retina interferes with this second kind of imagery. And it's this kind of imagery that the OP discusses. You can train yourself to experience it. I've managed to improve both kinds of mental imagery by practicing.

qnleigh 3y ago

Tangential but hopefully related enough to be of interest; is there similar variability with the "mind's ear?" If you imagine someone saying "hello," does it make sense to then ask things like whether the voice was male or female?Personally, I can 'hear' imagined sounds in quite a lot of detail. I'm not aphantasic, but images are less vivid than audio for me. Oddly, I realized a few years ago that most of my dreams have no direct audio content. There are no sounds when people talk ; speech is implicit. I asked around and my impression is that this is unusual. However every once in a while I will have a dream with incredibly vivid, apparently novel music, as if every note on every instrument is actually being played in my head. I still remember the main melody from the last song that I dreamt this way.

i4i 3y ago

Having only discovered Aphantasia in my 6th decade on the planet, it's safe to say that you can't miss what you never had. That said, in a FB forum that discusses Aphantasia, a few people who previously had the ability to 'see memories', were devastated by the (stroke) loss of it. Upon describing my situation, one friend immediately asked incredulously, "How do you jerk off?" I'm intrigued with the article. That a "Mind's Eye" could be developed is an exciting possibility. BTW, This is a tight, short, Hank Green video that I send to folks who have no idea what I'm talking about. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A91tvp0b1fY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A91tvp0b1fY