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China is flooding Taiwan with disinformation
- technocratius 3y agohttps://archive.ph/Wg5xT https://archive.ph/Wg5xT
- sacnoradhq 3y agoIt seems worth the cost and effort to improve CAPTCHAs and comment microtransactions to prevent automated and boiler room sentiment manipulation.
- zoklet-enjoyer 3y agoLightning Network fixes this
- bratbag 3y agoCreating a paywall for opinions just filters out normal people while only mildly increasing the cost of organised propaganda.
- praisewhitey 3y ago>She points to a spurious claim that America “wants to blow up” TSMC, a Taiwanese chipmaker. It originated with a misleading video posted on Douyin, the Chinese version of TikTok, which featured an American lawmaker appearing to discuss the possibility. This part stood out to me as I've seen this mentioned several times on HN in the past. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=tsmc+blow+up&sort=byPopularity&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
- jamesaurichs 3y ago[flagged]
- perihelions 3y agoThe HN discussion isn't related to a "misleading video posted on Douyin"; it's based on accurate news reporting about an academic foreign policy paper (which doesn't speak for US foreign policy). https://www.theregister.com/2022/01/05/taiwan_should_destory_tsmc_paper/ https://www.theregister.com/2022/01/05/taiwan_should_destory... ("US Army journal's top paper from 2021 says Taiwan should destroy TSMC if China invades") https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31012442 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31012442 ("Taiwan should destroy TSMC if invaded, suggests US military paper (datacenterdynamics.com)"; 148 comments) Here's extended context of what the OP is discussing, a different thing: https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2023/05/12/2003799660 https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2023/05/12/... ("‘Selectively clipped’ video misrepresents US official’s TSMC comments") https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/05/12/microchips-us-taiwan-strategy/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/05/12/microchip... ("Opinion: Blow up the microchips? What a Taiwan spat says about U.S. strategy") edit: Moulton's quote is at 36:22 here—this is apparently its full and complete context: https://vimeo.com/817736553 https://vimeo.com/817736553 ("The United States and China: Navigating Strategic Competition"; Milken Institute, May 2, 2023)
- arp242 3y ago> an academic foreign policy paper (which doesn't speak for the US foreign policy). From two guys who seem to have no real influence. It's basically little more than a blog post. A lot of people say a lot of stuff. Sometimes that's pretty stupid. Sometimes even worse. That's kind of how it works in a free society. The most effective lie is the one with a kernel of truth.
- dundarious 3y agoRep. Seth Moulton (Mass.) is in government. And if a Chinese military journal said something, the US press would have no qualms saying "Chinese military thinks/wants X". It's on the same level of "disinformation" as 99% of journalism, which is to say, it contains minor sensationalism but has meaningful factual basis, and with minor additional qualifiers, has a reasonable factual basis.
- WiSaGaN 3y agoThis is said by "Rep. Seth Moulton (Mass.) — one of the Democratic Party’s leading voices on defense": Speaking at a Milken Institute panel in Los Angeles, Moulton said: “One of the interesting ideas that’s been floated out there for deterrence is just making it very clear to the Chinese that if you invade Taiwan, we’re going to blow up TSMC.” He continued: “I just throw that out not because that’s necessarily the best strategy, but because it’s an example of the debate that’s out there. And of course, the Taiwanese really don’t like this idea.” [1] [1]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/05/12/microchips-us-taiwan-strategy/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/05/12/microchip...
- SanjayMehta 3y agoThat’s a bizarre idea. China wants Taiwan because they consider it a renegade province. I doubt they care about one fab.
- WiSaGaN 3y agoIt's dangerous strategically for the US to believe that China's motivation is about TSMC. "Taiwan" might not even be just a "CCP" goal. In fact, the "CCP" wouldn't likely survive without making unification a priority.
- 3seashells 3y agoHate for the outsiders, the traditional authoritarian pressure valve.
- blackoil 3y agoYeah. China has its stance consistently since 1940s, it is not that they woke up about Taiwan in 2010. It is more of a scorched earth plan. There isn't much of interest to US beyond TSMC. As long as it doesn't fall in hand of China, rest it will be OK to loose.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
- snehk 3y agoAbsolutely hilarious that - in an article talking about disinformation - they make the 100% wrong claim that the video is somehow misleading. It exists and the contents are absolutely clear. Claiming that the video is misleading is 100% disinformation. Reminds me of Trudeau who talked about Russian disinformation after they gave a standing ovation to a literal SS soldier. Anything I don't like is a Russian/Chinese fake news campaign and everyone I don't agree with is a Russian/Chinese bot. I can't believe that's what the culture in the west has become. It's really concerning.
- calyth2018 3y agoYou'd think when Rota, the speaker said that the soldier thought against the Russians in WW2, people would clue in. We have 338 trained seals up in Parliament. And they're still saying it's Russian propaganda...
- maverick2007 3y ago> America had asked Taiwan to manufacture biological weapons at a lab run by the island’s defence ministry, the report claimed. This reminds me a lot of the (presumably Russian disinformation) story that flitted around American conservative spheres early in the Ukraine war saying that the US gov was setting up bio weapon labs at the border with Russia and that's why the Russian invasion was justified. Funny how the exact same propaganda can be shared between conflicts to good effect presumably.
- jamesaurichs 3y agoThere's going to be a lot of Russian and Chinese interference in American politics in 2024 for sure
- peepeepoopoo39 3y ago[flagged]
- goodbyesf 3y agoIf there is any foreign interference, it would be from britain, canada, israel, etc. What russian or chinese interference is there when there is 24/7 anti-russian and anti-chinese propaganda?
- seventytwo 3y agoWhy not all of them? American politics have turned into a global influence game.
- anthonymelchett 3y ago[flagged]
- adventured 3y agoCould you list a bunch of it and explain why it's disinformation? Given it's a flood, there must be an enormous amount of it over time.
- nickpeterson 3y agoThere was so much disinformation the Chinese military had to crush it in the streets with tanks.
- wdutch 3y agoAh yes that event that famously took place on the island of taiwan....
- est 3y agoIt's actually in reverse. Taiwan's congress diplomacy was a huge success.
- stevofolife 3y agoWhat a fluffy statement withstanding like a thin paper tower.
- goodbyesf 3y ago[flagged]
- bigger_inside 3y ago[flagged]
- zxcnmbzxcmb 3y agoThe reason why the US would destroy it is bc TSMC manufactures chips used in.. everything from F35, carriers, drones, satellites, SIGINT hardware, etc
- jamesaurichs 3y ago[flagged]
- goodbyesf 3y ago[flagged]
- stale2002 3y ago> Who cares? Presumable the hundreds of thousands, or maybe even millions of people in China who are going to die if they invade Taiwan, due to all the weapons that the US gives Taiwan and will continue to give them to defend themselves. And possibly even more that that if and when either the USA or surrounding Pacific Asia countries get directly involved against China. Those US bases aren't there for show. Instead, they are they to shoot down invading forces from China, if they start an invasion.
- galangalalgol 3y agoIf it goes that far, the global economic ramifications could easily have a death toll exceeding direct hostilities. Or maybe trade would continue while war raged, it seems surreal, but it isn't unthinkable.
- Supply5411 3y ago[flagged]
- AbrahamParangi 3y agoYou’re downvoted because this claim is worse than an insane conspiracy theory. It’s just mind-blowingly stupid.
- Supply5411 3y agoWhat claim? I'm quoting the article and saying its ridiculous that racial bioweapon threats are becoming normalized.
- eloisius 3y agoThe quote is an example of Chinese disinformation being spread in Taiwan, not a reflection of anything in reality.
- Supply5411 3y agoYes, I know that. Where did I say differently? I said the threats are being normalized. If a world power is telling their citizens that it's happening, whether its actually happening or not, then that is the process of normalization.
- jazzyjackson 3y ago> is this the kind of world we live in now? Where the proliferation of bioweapon threats is commonplace? no one is normalizing bioweapon threats, they're normalizing accusing the other side of bioweapon threats but I guess that's pedantic and I agree with you that it sucks that no one would be surprised if a bioweapon did occur because everyone suspects the other side of it anyway *using no one and everyone loosely
- SkyMarshal 3y ago
- coliveira 3y agoThe expression "flooding with disinformation" is the hallmark of biased reporting. Why is only one side considered as "disinformation" while the other side is assumed to be only talking the truth? The only conclusion I can reach is that the economist is doing here the very same thing they're accusing the other side.
- Supply5411 3y agoMSM wants to pretend that nobody realizes their purpose is to push disinformation to everyone, all the time. So they clutch their pearls when "the other side" does it. Sorry, MSM, your credibility is in the toilet. You're all pushing disinformation, all the time. You get no points for calling the other side out on it.
- ipnon 3y agoA better term would be “propaganda” or psychological warfare, something CCP and PLA each have dedicated units for.
- coliveira 3y agoDon't forget the other country that has dedicated propaganda units: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-operation-social-networks https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-op...
- bratbag 3y ago'Both sides' is a core part of the authoritarian propaganda playbook. Pretending that occasional manipulation in the information produced by Liberal democracies is somehow equivalent to the constant stream of lies autocracies produce, is part of how they stop their people wanting change.
- shashurup 3y agoWhat Russian or Chinese press do you read to come to this conclusion?
- samcheng 3y ago[flagged]
- Supply5411 3y ago[flagged]
- _kbh_ 3y agoI’m not seeing much independent thought outside the usual “America bad”. It’s interesting that a lot of those independent thinkers all have the exact same opinions.
- sva_ 3y agoIt's funny that you make this qualitative assessment about the history of this board, and the very topic of burner accounts, while posting from a fresh account.
- Supply5411 3y agoI made no reference to burner accounts, but thanks for tying that into your not-so-subtle accusation against me. I've been here since 2011. Want proof of my identity, check my bio on Github[1] This is exactly what I'm talking about. McCarthy like paranoia. Downvoting people because of how old their accounts are[2], not because of what they wrote. Accusations of burner accounts. It's ridiculous. 1. https://github.com/amoffat https://github.com/amoffat 2. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37668908 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37668908
- bpodgursky 3y agoGenuine Q, how am I supposed to connect this Github with this account or the 2011 claim?
- Supply5411 3y agoThe project that I'm known for, sh.py, was launched on HN 12 years ago, dig up the post if you're interested.
- Animats 3y agoChina is having an internal information crackdown. It's approaching the nutty level, which probably indicates that Xi is losing it. The latest thing is a crackdown on clothing "detrimental to the spirit of the Chinese people."[1] [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-66737272 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-66737272
- aragonite 3y agoI'd suggest taking a look at the specific clauses under discussion, esp. as the draft laws are still in the public commentary stage. See clauses 2 and 3 of Article 34 in (https://www.chinalawtranslate.com/en/public-security-administron-punishments-draft/ https://www.chinalawtranslate.com/en/public-security-adminis...) and consider them in the context of clauses 1, 4, 5, and 6. Note the recurrent mentions of 'heroes and martyrs' and 'wars of aggression' within these clauses, something a casual reader of that BBC article would not have been led to expect, and consider that some European countries directly impacted by WW2 on their own soil have laws at least similar in letter (laws which most Americans would probably find restrictive, but I doubt anyone would regard as them as clearly 'nutty'). Of course, you can still criticize these draft laws for vagueness and unenforceability: these concerns have already been extensively covered in mainstream Chinese media outlets.
- keepamovin 3y agoTut tut, I thought you would have learned from the HK protests that no serious current event commentator is ever really interested in what the law actually says. I.E., The Basic Law.
- jcranmer 3y ago"Causing harm to the names, images, reputations, and honor of heroes and martyrs through insult, defamation, or other such means" pretty clearly means to me something along the lines of "you can't point out that Mao Zedong's Great Leap Forward caused a famine that killed tens of millions of people." There's nothing along those lines in any EU country, let alone the US (where such a concept is in extremely flagrant violation of the First Amendment). The closest you'd come is laws against Holocaust denial--but notice the key difference between a law that makes it a crime to suggest that a "good" person might have done something bad versus a law that makes it a crime to suggest that a bad deed never happened.
- hohohmm 3y agoThe fact that saying it's disinformation is downvoted so rapidly perfectly illustrates how hard it is to tell what is the actual disinformation
- ipnon 3y agoOne phenomenon I don’t think psyop brigades seem to have caught on to, is that by flooding comment sections with controversial statements they invite vigorous debate, which ends up boosting engagement. In the end they bring more attention to the stories they are attempting to squash.
- keepamovin 3y agoI think these new slated rules are actually more taking a leaf out of the Western democratic book: it's a distraction. It's a loss-leader. Yes, a small sacrifice that makes you (the gov) look ridiculous. But the gain? Immeasurable. Because you essentially get people obsessed over trivialities, content-free but emotionally compelling non-issues that are guaranteed to channel energy but not move the needle. It's a key tenet of democratic stability: you need to pump the media full of innumerable social debates that partition the market, so you get people fighting themselves over trivialities rather than focusing their considerable energies on change for real issues. So I see this as more a proof of the "coming of age" or new sophistication of the Chinese "psyop brigades" as you call them, rather than an indication of incompetence that you seem to think. Small caveat that I haven't decided about yet is: some of this could be to create such an overly oppressive "rules based" atmosphere that people are so afraid of tripping over any law they just toe the line more generally. But I'm not sure, this is directly non-Confucian: In governing, don't try to force issues or you'll turn away from what is right. The more prohibitions you have, the less virtuous people will be. The more weapons you have, the less secure people will be And anti-Lao Tzu: "The more laws and restrictions there are, The poorer people become. ... The more rules and regulations, The more thieves and robbers."
- temptemptemp111 3y ago[dead]
- th2o3i4uo34234 3y agoIgnoring the details (bioweapon etc.), US Skepticism is very warranted for Taiwan (and all Asians/Europeans IMO). Considering what US is doing to TSMC and how Taiwan is likely going to be stripped of all valuable assets in the future for NatSec, and how Germany is now being de-industrialized after the bombing of Nordstream by US & allies, I'd be extremely wary of the people running US if I care an iota about my own people. Those of us who remember how Japan was made to kneel by the BoJ following US diktats know very well that Kissinger's remark 'to be a friend of US is fatal' is deadly serious.
- syngrog66 3y agoRussia is also a major actor in the adversarial disinfo space. Especially against the US, NATO and the EU. background: worked on a US State Department project to help counter them. Technically China's anti-Taiwan efforts too. But we cared most about Russia. I did, anyway. my side project, Slartboz, also deals with the topic of adversarial propaganda & disinfo, and the efforts of amoral, anti-democratic nation state actors like Russia and China.
- friend_and_foe 3y agoI was really interested until they compared it to Russian disinformation that led to the election of Donald Trump. Everyone knows that's a load of crap. Why discredit yourself? If you're trying to get the word out that China is attempting to sway a Taiwanese election, the last thing you need to be doing is comparing your point to known nonsense.
- keepamovin 3y agoHe suggests many Taiwanese have an “orphan mentality”: they fear abandonment by outsiders because of Taiwan’s experience of losing American diplomatic recognition in the 1970s. This was insightful for me, actually. I never thought of this before. It explains a lot! All journalists in Taiwan serve the bias of their newspapers’ bosses, says Mr Wang, who has worked for both pro-independence and pro-unification newspapers. “Everyone just treats it as a job,” he says. “It’s a tool to feed yourself.” Also this is very cynical and painful to read. Ugh...vomit face. But also makes sense based on what I've seen there!
- mjklin 3y agoRumor has it that many Taiwanese named ugly street dogs “Carter” for years because of what Jimmy Carter’s admin did with their recognition.
- keepamovin 3y agoIt reminds me very much of this episode from Chinese history, which shows an equally mirrored-but-subdued statement of defiance after rejection: Project 596 was named after the month of June 1959 in which it was initiated as an independent nuclear project, immediately after Nikita Khrushchev decided to stop helping the Chinese with their nuclear program on 20 June 1959, and Mao shifted toward an overall policy of self-reliance. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_596 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_596
- Mademilg 3y ago[flagged]
- bratbag 3y agoIf you want to see the flood in action, watch this story get pushed down by every tool available. Expect it to effectively vanish off the front of hacker news in record time.
- hammon 3y ago[dead]