13 ms·

66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

137 points by pg_1234 3y ago

unmole 3y ago
Did the survey ask if they wanted a pay cut to match European style wages?
- cpursley 3y ago
  Fair question. I think many Americans in higher income brackets would say yes; it’s just that they’d never had the option. Ditto on a 4 day work week.
  - refurb 3y ago
    Americans with higher incomes likely have very good vacation policies. I get 25 days per year.
    - objektif 3y ago
      What type of job?
    - ghosty141 3y ago
      What you call very good is almost the minimum (24) vacation days in germany plus you get public holidays ontop of which range from 10-12 (in a good year most of them are during the workweek). Here people who have good jobs can get ~35 vacation days.
      - brational 3y ago
        Right but I (and I assume others) wouldn’t trade 100-200k usd per year for 5-10 more days. Not to mention most in that environment have plenty of flexible work arrangements as well. I also CAN take unpaid extra days and most years do, in essence doing that trade for a better price (~1k per day), but I recognize it’s not that common in the US.
    - morelisp 3y ago
      25 days a year is not a "very good" vacation policy in Europe, I'd say that would be at least 35 + public holidays.
      - refurb 3y ago
        I’m very happy with 25 days plus another 13 bank holidays. That’s a total of almost 2 months off per year. And in trade for not getting another 10 days I get 2-3x the compensation as the EU. That’s a trade I’m happy with.
    - maccard 3y ago
      I get 25, plus 8 bank holidays, plus an office closure for 10 days (which is technically 7 because there's 3 bank holidays during that time period) during the holiday period, and we closed for a week during Summer this year too.
- NavinF 3y ago
  I suspect the survey results will change drastically if each person was shown this table: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_capita_income#Disposable_income_per_capita_(OECD) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_c...
  - defrost 3y ago
    The US might have higher disposable income but there are less benefits to go with that. I'll stick with the health care, education, paid vacation and sick leave, lower crime rates, lower incarceration rates, zero school shootings, etc.
  - andrelaszlo 3y ago
    The difference is much smaller if you look at the median disposable income instead. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_capita_income#Median_equivalent_adult_income https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per... The big skewness (difference between the mean and the median) suggests that a lot of wealth is concentrated at the top and that many people are in fact worse off than Europeans.
- momirlan 3y ago
  and taxes...
  - formerly_proven 3y ago
    Taxes and levies don't seem to be that different, overall you always seem to pay about 50 % of gross income in developed countries.
  - dopidopHN 3y ago
    I pay a month worth of salary per year in France and I pay the same in Louisiana. 1/12 But in France you get something out of your taxes
    - unmole 3y ago
      What's the VAT rate in Louisiana? /s
    - 0xDEF 3y ago
      You only pay 8.3% in tax in France? That sounds unrealistic.
      - dopidopHN 3y ago
        Exact figures : https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F1419 https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F1419 It’s progressive, from 0% to 45%. A rule of thumb is “a month of salary”
  - mrkeen 3y ago
    Americans do love their taxes. They still take a cut even if you live and work overseas.
  - GaryNumanVevo 3y ago
    As an expat who used to work in California and now works in the Netherlands, tax wise it's about the same. With the 30% ruling + a lower overall income I've actually been able to offload a lot of stock and diversify into real estate without being over taxed. So ymmv
- tyingq 3y ago
  That's perhaps true at tech wage levels. I think it's less true as you move down the ladder, where things like American health costs, college costs, etc, eat into things.
- WeylandYutani 3y ago
  What's the point of having money if you don't have the time to spend it?
  - sorwin 3y ago
    You know you can take unpaid vacations, right?
    - mrkeen 3y ago
      Unless you're hired 'at will'. Then your manager can fire you for taking vacation.
    - jtwaleson 3y ago
      Afaik: you have a contract where you promise to work X hours per year. Some companies include clauses for unpaid leave but if not, they are not obliged to grant it.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  Reaching 50 years old, never got this American complaint about our salaries. The whole package is what matters. We work to live, not live to work.
  - dagi3d 3y ago
    For some might not be the case when talking about the health insurance...
    - pjmlp 3y ago
      Most countries have it free from the state, even if it has several issues, way better than the US situation, where even the Red Cross had to set up camp on the poorer states.
  - zer0tonin 3y ago
    I think Americans also are quite delusional about how low the European salaries are. Getting six figures in Europe isn't particularly hard anymore.
    - 0xDEF 3y ago
      Europe is not one country. I live in Denmark and some of the things I have witnessed in (eastern) Germany almost felt 3rd worldish.
    - badpun 3y ago
      Probably as hard as getting $200k in the States though... "Six figures" just aren't what they used to be.
    - nxm 3y ago
      Yes but what percentage of that ends up getting taxed?
    - emptysongglass 3y ago
      I am European: our wages are much, much lower than our American tech counterparts, without taxes double, with taxes we're on average making a third of them. And that's same cost of living.
- edent 3y ago
  The UK's minimum wage is £10.42 per hour. That's about US$13. What's the minimum wage in the USA? And, yes, if you're a full-time minimum wage employee in the UK you get a minimum of 28 days paid holiday.
- ubercore 3y ago
  Anecdote time, but I moved from a decent (non-FAANG) tech salary in the US to a (locally) good salary in Norway, and feel better off as a result. In outright terms my salary took a huge hit, but there are so many little things in the US that eat up your money you don't realize over time. And the difference gets even more stark if you have children.
  - lordnacho 3y ago
    This is what I don't get about the US system. You can get paid a lot of money, but it is unthinkable for someone with a good job in America to not send their kids to college, which costs a heck of a lot of money. 2.5 kids is going to cost many years of earnings to put through college, and you don't even know what amount that is since the price is flying away. In Norway you can have 10 kids and all they have to do is be diligent about doing their homework, and they will get into university.
    - acuozzo 3y ago
      We just saddle our children with private student loan debt.
  - GaryNumanVevo 3y ago
    Social mobility is also a lot higher in the Western EU. I moved with my wife to the Netherlands 3 years ago. I was working a FAANG job, I took a 30% pay cut (after factoring taxes, etc). But the flip side is that the relative salary of a global tech worker in the Netherlands is MUCH higher than the average. My wife and I now have 5 separate rental properties now and growing, something we could only dream of doing in the Bay Area unless one of us hit the startup lottery. Of course I could have worked remotely for a similar pay cut and bought a bunch of rental properties in the Midwest or something, but instead we're living in a vibrant international city and have enough cash flow to pay our bills.
- catboybotnet 3y ago
  If pay is the only concern, why not just take up contract work and refuse benefits to get the most pay? Ignoring the other variables at play, such as cost of living and benefits, and only focusing on pay is foolish.
  - unmole 3y ago
    Higher pay gives you options like being able to take unpaid time off and still coming out ahead. That's more appealing than nebulous benefits. Contract work is a fundamentally different proposition and equating it to employment is foolish.
    - maccard 3y ago
      > That's more appealing than nebulous benefits. Benefits aren't nebulous, they're concrete things. My employer offers a pension(401k) contribution, health insurance (which is a queue skip really here), income protection for long term sickness or death in service, and a "perks card" which is 95% crap but gives me a 25% discount on the largest gym chain in my area. That's just monetary. On the "non-monetary" side, I'm guaranteed 33 days _paid_ time off (and promised 40 this year), have an option to take a month _unpaid_ with notice, I have employment rights and can't just find myself without a job with no notice or dismissed for no reason. There's also the "overhead"/admin work of managing a business and handling the tax affairs. Sure it's straightforward, until HMRC decide it's audit time. > Contract work is a fundamentally different proposition and equating it to employment is foolish. That, I agree with.
  - jtwaleson 3y ago
    I switched to freelance earlier this year and now make 6x compared to before. Granted, I was underpaid for the market because I was CTO in a small startup. Contract work is for when you can take the risks. You also need to have a good network and be able to sell yourself so you have a steady stream of work. Finding new work takes considerable time which you should factor in. I personally love the freedom right now, but I’m using this as an in-between period until I discover what I really want to focus on.
dotdi 3y ago
I'm shocked, I tell you. Shocked! /s Is it a suprize to anybody that employees do not appreciate being exploited for financial gain?
cynicalsecurity 3y ago
As much as I like my vacations, I would rather prefer US salary over it.
- lionkor 3y ago
  Does the US salary hold up against the benefits you get in a well-off EU country? Namely free healthcare, automatic payments into pension fund, strong social system if you're ever in trouble, etc.? It seems to me that, as high as US salaries are, they arent that much higher compared to European salaries when you factor all this in, plus the face that a month of that work youre paid for youre OOO
  - Longhanks 3y ago
    For Germany: "Free" as in waiting for months to get an appointment with a specialist? "Pension fund" as in gigantic ponzi scheme that requires 30% of the state‘s yearly budget, with no party having any kind of plan how to save the system? "Strong social system" as in being taken advantage of with the world‘s second highest taxes? Sure, I’d rather be super poor in Europe than in the US. But anybody above the poorest, anybody that can and wants to work for a living, I’d much rather try to find my luck in America.
    - renewiltord 3y ago
      Sadly, you'll be waiting in America too if you're in SF. It's actually really poor customer service till you get the doctors.
    - rightbyte 3y ago
      > "Pension fund" as in gigantic ponzi scheme that requires 30% of the state‘s yearly budget Why is that a problem? At macro scale you can't really save money. As long as the pension payouts are somewhat balanced to pay ins each year it is kinda fine.
      - lotsofpulp 3y ago
lionkor 3y ago
> While the average American is lucky to get 11 vacation days WHAT? Does that count sick days as well, or is that a myth? Here in Germany, I get 30 vacation days per calendar year, plus any sick days, and thats fairly normal. Edit: Sure the absolute salaries here are lower, but the cost of living is vastly different and the social support structures and healthcare are different, too. That should definitely be kept in mind. I dont need to drive my car a lot, because my city is fully walkable/bikeable, and thats not a super rare thing here. There are a lot of factors. I feel vacation days are just a basic requirement for happiness, whereas being rich maybe isnt
- jacobgorm 3y ago
  When I first joined a US startup, they said "you can take unlimited PTO -- we suggest starting with a week per year"... I negotiated that up to the five weeks that are standard here in Denmark.
  - iteria 3y ago
    That is blowing my mind 2 weeks is generally considers standard for white collar work in the US, but companies that have unlimited PTO have a higher tolerance in my experience. I take off 5 weeks a year. I found that taking off a week a quarter and then whatever random emergency days was just right for me. It's why once I experienced unlimited PTO I never went back.
  - FartyMcFarter 3y ago
    "Unlimited PTO" is a red flag for me. It means that PTO will be governed by pressure, self-pressure and shame.
    - lotsofpulp 3y ago
      Also you do not get paid for leave you have accrued when you are terminated or quit.
      - bradleyjg 3y ago
jlnthws 3y ago
They first need to build European-style mindset to properly take advantage of this.
- WeylandYutani 3y ago
  This is true. I used to think that having a life outside your job was normal. But that was before I became friends with Asian expats.
laserlight 3y ago
NPR's recent Planet Money episode on the topic: [0]. [0] Europe gets more vacations than the U.S. Here are some reasons why. https://www.npr.org/2023/08/17/1194467863/europe-vacation-holiday-paid-time-off https://www.npr.org/2023/08/17/1194467863/europe-vacation-ho...
0xDEF 3y ago
Other than the expensive healthcare one thing that really brings down American quality of life is the long working hours and lack of vacation. Americans should also stop focusing on bullshit stats like "working two jobs or more". The percentage of Danish people who work two jobs or more is roughly the same as in the US. The real problem are the long working hours and lack of vacation in the US.
kramerger 3y ago
It has been shown that you need around 14 days of interrupted rest to recover from stress etc. The European laws are not some random thing we made up because we are lazy. It is to ensure workers are well rested and ready for a new working year. Hence in long term it will also benefit employers. Some personal anecdata: I notice an immediate difference when I come back after a long vacation. The first 2-3 months I work at top efficiency, get probably done twice as much as I would do any other month.
- switch007 3y ago
  > The European laws are not some random thing we made up because we are lazy. In the case of the UK, much of the working hours, weekends, time off for bank holidays etc were hard-won agreements and rights from the Industrial Revolution era to the 20th century. The UK led the charge with many of these things too I wish more people understood this. We had basically slave labour, workhouses, horrific factories etc
- renewiltord 3y ago
  How long is that long term because there aren't that many great European companies.
  - rpadovani 3y ago
    I count 10 European companies on this list, and 20 US. Maybe is not as bad as you think? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_companies_by_revenue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_companies_by_r...
    - veave 3y ago
      I only count 6. Switzerland and the UK are not part of the EU. (The article is about the EU, not Europe)
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
anoncow 3y ago
Water is wet?
- personomas 3y ago
  I think actually more newsworthy here is that only 66% of Americans want extended holidays haha
1letterunixname 3y ago
Meanwhile, Americans don't know how bad they have it and are far more productive for more hours for less money. Perhaps Americans should unionize smartly more and insist on collective bargaining for workplace safety, proper healthcare, and livable wages to start? Most Americans are living paycheck-to-paycheck and don't have much hope for their future. They feel like they're going to work until they drop without a plan or the resources to grow old with a shred of dignity.
bananapub 3y ago
what's wrong with the other 34%?
- NamTaf 3y ago
  They're the bosses
speedgoose 3y ago
I’m concerned about the 21% who don’t want a better quality of life. What’s going on with them?
- 0xDEF 3y ago
  If Americans want the same quality of life as we have here in Denmark they should tax the top 20% more so it doesn't surprise me that the top 20% come out against things like higher taxes and more worker rights. I'm probably among the top 5% here in Denmark and I'm fine with paying high taxes.
  - memefrog 3y ago
    You can't tax your way to wealth. Taxing the rich more won't make the quality of life of the average person better. The rich already pay the OVERWHELMING majority of tax.
    - speedgoose 3y ago
      The rich wouldn’t be rich without poorer people. Also I’m a bit dubious about your statement, it goes against what I can quickly search for but I would gladly be proven wrong.
      - memefrog 3y ago
        "High-Income Taxpayers Paid the Majority of Federal Income Taxes. In 2020, the bottom half of taxpayers earned 10.2 percent of total AGI and paid 2.3 percent of all federal individual income taxes. The top 1 percent earned 22.2 percent of total AGI and paid 42.3 percent of all federal income taxes." https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/federal/summary-latest-federal-income-tax-data-2023-update/ https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/federal/summary-latest-fe... In New Zealand, about 12% of individuals pay about 50% of personal income tax, and the top 3% pay about a quarter. That doesn't take into account the amount they are taxed indirectly through GST or through company tax on companies they own shares in.
larusso 3y ago
I‘ve been to the US for a long vacation (4,5 weeks or with traveltime and rest day before and after a whole month). I was able to do this because I have 35 days of vacation (a bonus program from my employer, stay more then x years and your vacation days increase. I have the maximum after 7 years) While I was traveling through south California and Arizona I dreamed how awesome it would be to live here and be able to visit more awesome sites without a 11-13h flight and all the other costs. Then I realized: If I would live and work here I might not get the vacation days I‘m used to, to do all these things. Bubble bursted for the time being. Or are there exceptions? I also include a normal weekly hour rate. I work 40h a week and can be very flexible with these times.
- mutex_man 3y ago
  I get ~28 vacation days per year in the US, and I've only been with my company for 5 years. It's going to heavily depend on your industry and level of experience. Even outside of vacation I also have a pretty relaxed work/life balance. If I want to visit family for 2 weeks but not take a bunch of vacation my boss isn't going to care if I work half days remote the whole time.
  - larusso 3y ago
    Ok nice to hear that it is possible ;) See with the overall generalization one thinks in Europe we are constantly on holiday and in the US the people work 50-60 hours a week and have to count the days until the next vacation.
- GaryNumanVevo 3y ago
  While you might be able to find a good company that offers a lot of vacation (relatively compared to other US firms), culture is ultimately the biggest roadblock for people actually taking the time they need. I've worked at many places that have "unlimited time off" but in reality people worked more on average because it can be difficult to negotiate that time off with your manager.
codr7 3y ago
Forget about 4 weeks; I took 7 weeks off this summer, next year I'm going for 8.
xetifafa 3y ago
If anyone is interested in an anecdote from a US American mid level dev living in Germany: I get 30 paid vacation days, 10 ish public holidays and my employer has to pay up to 6 weeks of sick leave a year (after that the public health insurance pays). I make around 75k€ with a 38 hour work week and my take home is roughly 3600€ net. My living expenses are less than 1k (mid sized city, no car, split rent, no kids) so I am able to invest 2-2.5x my living expenses every a month.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  That's a very good wage for mid level dev. Which City?
  - xetifafa 3y ago
    Don't want to give too many details but it's in NRW close to Cologne.
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      Aren't rents there insane?
      - xetifafa 3y ago
        Not as bad as Berlin, Munich or Hamburg. I split around 1k€ (warm) for a newly remodeled/renovated 60m2 apartment in a very hip area close to the city center.
        FirmwareBurner 3y ago
        So the total rent is 1k or 2k?
- stop50 3y ago
  Consecutive sick days. If you got in the icu because of corona for 5 weeks and the month after that because you got into a car crash for 4 weeks the employer has to pay for all the 9 weeks.
badpun 3y ago
It's also worth pointing out that, in many European countries (Nordics, Italy, probably Germany as well?) it's perfectly ok to just take say most of July or August off, along with everyone else. It's disruptive to the business (to the point that it's taken into account when planning things), esp. in complex companies, where a couple of key managers or architects missing means an entire initiative can stall for the duration- but it's part of the culture and business owners are just accepting this. Also, even the senior key people are often not really expected to answers emails during vacation. It might be different at the director level and above, but they're pretty much all workaholics anyway, so they don't mind.
- stop50 3y ago
  Some german companies may do this, but at most i saw comapnies to give prio to parents and if there is still free capacity its given to the others.
- vikaveri 3y ago
  One company I worked for enforced vacations. If someone from work absolutely had to call you on your vacation day, ask a question or password, anything, you'd get a do-over for your day. No one ever called anyone on vacation without a damn good reason. Checking and answering emails on vacation was discouraged as well
  - paulmd 3y ago
    this is actually required in some finance-centered fields in the US, because historically many frauds/ponzis/etc have fallen apart when their key players happened to be out-of-office or incommunicado for a few weeks, and a fresh set of eyes got to look at the books. "wait, that doesn't look right... hmmm..." https://www.fdic.gov/regulations/safety/manual/section4-2.pdf https://www.fdic.gov/regulations/safety/manual/section4-2.pd... > Vacation Policies > Banks should have a policy that requires all officers and employees to be absent from their duties for an uninterrupted period of not less than two consecutive weeks. Absence can be in the form of vacation, rotation of duties, or a combination of both activities. Such policies are highly effective in preventing embezzlements, which usually require a perpetrator’s ongoing presence to manipulate records, respond to inquiries, and otherwise prevent detection. The benefits of such policies are substantially, if not totally, eroded if the duties normally performed by an individual are not assumed by someone else. > Where a bank’s policies do not conform to the two-week recommended absence, examiners should discuss the benefits of this control with senior management and the board of directors and encourage them to annually review and approve the bank’s actual policy and any exceptions. In cases where a two-week absent-from-duty policy is not in place, the institution should establish appropriate compensating controls that are strictly enforced. Any significant deficiencies in an institution's vacation policy or compensating controls should be discussed in the ROE and reflected in the Management component of the Uniform Financial Institutions Rating System (UFIRS). Note: Management should consider suspending or restricting an individual’s normal IT access rights during periods of prolonged absence, especially for employees with remote or high-level access rights. At a minimum, management should consider monitoring and reporting remote access during periods of prolonged absence.
EoinB 3y ago
I was born and educated in Scotland, worked in the UK for a decade or so, then moved to the US and worked for big tech for 15 years while living in the US and becoming a US citizen. I then chose to move back to Scotland, where I continue to work for the same US big tech company but get paid UK wages with UK employment benefits. So, I've lived significant portions of my life on both sides. Here in the UK, I get 29 days paid vacation plus ten or so (not sure) public holidays. If I am sick on vacation, I can claim those days as sick days and regain the vacation time. Edit: plus, my contract is for 35 hours per week whereas in the US it was 40. Regarding money, I am doing the same job that I was doing in the US (same team etc.) but took, what was at the time, a 25% reduction in gross salary. However, by the time you add in the higher taxes, my take home pay (from my salary - my stock awards are the same) is about 40% lower than it was in the US. Now, I am nearing 50, my corporate career progression is plateauing/settled (by choice, btw) and I have a teenage daughter. A big reason for coming back to Scotland was so she could be educated here and experience European life and culture during her formative years. The other big reason was to have a better work-life balance. I have so much non-work time here, I can actually pursue non-work interests; whereas my US work colleagues seem to always be Slacking and "checking in" while they are on vacation; never seeming to have an identity beyond their job. I have also lost 13kg (29lb) in weight. For us techies, the US is the place to get rich, but, in my experience, there are significant lifestyle compromises that you must make in order to do so. Edit: I was curious about the numbers, so I did a little arithmetic to work out the hourly wage I earned in the US and the hourly wage I earn here in the UK, taking into consideration the vacation days. My UK gross per hour wage is between 11% and 15% lower than my US salary, depending on the (volatile) exchange rate. Of course, UK tax is much higher (my marginal rate is 49%). So, the difference in take-home pay is more than that.
- glimshe 3y ago
  I work in a major tech company and never check email outside work hours, which I cap at 40 hours a week. I never work weekends, never check work during weekends or vacations. I make much more than my European peers, have a better car, better weather and bigger house. I have 25 days of paid vacation. While this is better than the US average, I don't know a single person in my friends group wanting to trade the US for Europe, including my Europe-born friends.
Moldoteck 3y ago
Regardless of what you think, in the best path is being an eu citizen, work in us(some high paying job like IT) for 5-10 years, return in eu with huge cash, buy a home, work some more chill years for minimal pension and happily retire. Eu is nice to retire if you are eu citizen and have enough cash(by either working some years in us or remotely for us conpanies but a bit less pay)
- mmmmmbop 3y ago
  Agreed. It's a good strategy to benefit from the "free" education for both you and your kids.
- ChatGTP 3y ago
  Do you pay tax in Europe while in the US, or just do the parasitical thing?
  - mmmmmbop 3y ago
    How would you go about paying tax in Europe while in the US? The European countries I'm familiar with will not consider you a tax resident while living abroad, so they won't allow you to pay taxes.
    - ChatGTP 3y ago
      I get this way of living is personally advantageous but it's pretty shitty right? Work in the USA, pay lower tax there and get higher salary, fly back to Europe and take advantage of everyone's contributions to get yourself free healthcare while having contributed nothing yourself ?
      - mmmmmbop 3y ago
        If you were just trying to make that point, your previous comment comes across as a snarky leading question. From the HN guidelines: > Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously; don't cross-examine. Edit out swipes. In any case, it doesn't seem fair to frame it the way you did. If a high-earning engineer spends 5-10 years in the US to build wealth before returning to Europe to work at a 250k€ job for 7 more years before finally retiring, they'll still have contributed more in income taxes and social contributions in their home country during those 7 years than the median employee during their lifetime. At the same time, they will receive much lower state pensions since they only contributed for 7 years, and they will never take advantage of the unemployment benefits they contributed to. This is ignoring other contributions such as VAT on their personal consumption (which will likely be higher than average) and on the consumption of their relatives they may support. There's also the non-negligible aspect of bringing highly specialized knowledge and expertise back to their home country, which may increase the country's productivity by second order effects. Finally, at least in the two European countries I'm familiar with, Switzerland and Germany, you'll still have to pay monthly premiums for the "free health care" until retirement age.
tpetry 3y ago
Everyone starts to compare quality of live and salaries in America vs. Europe. But you are missing the biggest point! Not everyone is working in IT. And a ton of people do not make $200k+/year. We're in a group that is very well paid. But most are not. And for them European vacation policies or a social system that doesn't ruin you when you are ill are a big difference. Everone working it IT is speaking from within an ivory tower.
- maccard 3y ago
  I'd rather make £75k in most parts of the UK than $200k in most parts of the US.
jdthedisciple 3y ago
I'll take 5x the salary over a measly 20 extra vacation days any day, thanks. 70k a year for a highly skilled software dev is an absolute joke. At least that allows me to generate wealth and retire 20-30 years sooner compared to your average German.
- apexalpha 3y ago
  German retirement age is 66. So unless you are very young I guess you're retired now? How's that going? Also congrats on the $350,000 salary as a dev at the age of 30. There's no one in Europe making that as dev, not even in the Netherlands or Switzerland, not even close!
  - mmmmmbop 3y ago
    In Switzerland, top companies will pay $350k+ for senior engineers and above.
    - jdthedisciple 3y ago
      Right, with simultaneously lower tax rates. None of the alleged benefits in Germany offset or justify the discrepancies to similarly developed countries.
  - jdthedisciple 3y ago
    Meh, $350k is good but comparatively not even too much in some areas of the US, like NY or SF. > There's no one in Europe making that as dev, not even in the Netherlands or Switzerland, not even close! Exactly! Which is ridiculous! And people always bring up "free healthcare!" as a counter but it doesn't really offset this vast discrepancy for someone with a generally healthy lifestyle. How are people in Europe wage-slaving like that all their life? Edit: Lest it is misunderstood, this is not to demean the people. Rather, it is meant to critique the system. Free healthcare shouldn't mean having to give up indefinitely more in other regards. Furthermore, I'm sure European corporations too make millions and billions of €€ every year, so why can't they afford to pay competitively? Lastly taxes are obviously way too high and the pension rates are ridiculous for working 40-50 yrs. In short I'm critiquing the whole system. Just imagine, you have the same skill, same daily struggles, same effort, same trouble waking up in the morning... but you make in a day what your mirror in another place makes in an hour.
bitcharmer 3y ago
The number of delusional Americans with strong exceptional vibes on this thread is pretty frightening.
- dang 3y ago
  You posted nationalistic flamebait several times in this thread. That's not ok, regardless of which country you have a problem with. Please don't post like this to HN again. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - bitcharmer 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - dang 3y ago
      Of course not. Note the word "regardless" above.
acuozzo 3y ago
It amazes me how few of these comments are about neighbors. I'm a Software Engineer as well, but most people are not. The EU system helps ensure you're not surrounded by people made entirely miserable by their wage slavery. Who would want to be surrounded by miserable fucks? I live in the US state with the highest median income: Maryland. I feel lucky to have pursued a career here because I didn't grow up here and I didn't know much about Maryland beforehand. I now feel as though I couldn't live elsewhere within the US. I was surrounded by exhausted, overworked, miserable people growing up in NJ and I see so much less misery here even though I interact with people from many different socioeconomic backgrounds; up and down the ladder.

137 points by pg_1234 3y ago

unmole 3y ago

Did the survey ask if they wanted a pay cut to match European style wages?

cpursley 3y ago
Fair question. I think many Americans in higher income brackets would say yes; it’s just that they’d never had the option. Ditto on a 4 day work week.
- refurb 3y ago
  Americans with higher incomes likely have very good vacation policies. I get 25 days per year.
  - objektif 3y ago
    What type of job?
  - ghosty141 3y ago
    What you call very good is almost the minimum (24) vacation days in germany plus you get public holidays ontop of which range from 10-12 (in a good year most of them are during the workweek). Here people who have good jobs can get ~35 vacation days.
    - brational 3y ago
      Right but I (and I assume others) wouldn’t trade 100-200k usd per year for 5-10 more days. Not to mention most in that environment have plenty of flexible work arrangements as well. I also CAN take unpaid extra days and most years do, in essence doing that trade for a better price (~1k per day), but I recognize it’s not that common in the US.
  - morelisp 3y ago
    25 days a year is not a "very good" vacation policy in Europe, I'd say that would be at least 35 + public holidays.
    - refurb 3y ago
      I’m very happy with 25 days plus another 13 bank holidays. That’s a total of almost 2 months off per year. And in trade for not getting another 10 days I get 2-3x the compensation as the EU. That’s a trade I’m happy with.
  - maccard 3y ago
    I get 25, plus 8 bank holidays, plus an office closure for 10 days (which is technically 7 because there's 3 bank holidays during that time period) during the holiday period, and we closed for a week during Summer this year too.
NavinF 3y ago
I suspect the survey results will change drastically if each person was shown this table: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_capita_income#Disposable_income_per_capita_(OECD) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_c...
- defrost 3y ago
  The US might have higher disposable income but there are less benefits to go with that. I'll stick with the health care, education, paid vacation and sick leave, lower crime rates, lower incarceration rates, zero school shootings, etc.
- andrelaszlo 3y ago
  The difference is much smaller if you look at the median disposable income instead. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_capita_income#Median_equivalent_adult_income https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per... The big skewness (difference between the mean and the median) suggests that a lot of wealth is concentrated at the top and that many people are in fact worse off than Europeans.
momirlan 3y ago
and taxes...
- formerly_proven 3y ago
  Taxes and levies don't seem to be that different, overall you always seem to pay about 50 % of gross income in developed countries.
- dopidopHN 3y ago
  I pay a month worth of salary per year in France and I pay the same in Louisiana. 1/12 But in France you get something out of your taxes
  - unmole 3y ago
    What's the VAT rate in Louisiana? /s
  - 0xDEF 3y ago
    You only pay 8.3% in tax in France? That sounds unrealistic.
    - dopidopHN 3y ago
      Exact figures : https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F1419 https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F1419 It’s progressive, from 0% to 45%. A rule of thumb is “a month of salary”
- mrkeen 3y ago
  Americans do love their taxes. They still take a cut even if you live and work overseas.
- GaryNumanVevo 3y ago
  As an expat who used to work in California and now works in the Netherlands, tax wise it's about the same. With the 30% ruling + a lower overall income I've actually been able to offload a lot of stock and diversify into real estate without being over taxed. So ymmv
tyingq 3y ago
That's perhaps true at tech wage levels. I think it's less true as you move down the ladder, where things like American health costs, college costs, etc, eat into things.
WeylandYutani 3y ago
What's the point of having money if you don't have the time to spend it?
- sorwin 3y ago
  You know you can take unpaid vacations, right?
  - mrkeen 3y ago
    Unless you're hired 'at will'. Then your manager can fire you for taking vacation.
  - jtwaleson 3y ago
    Afaik: you have a contract where you promise to work X hours per year. Some companies include clauses for unpaid leave but if not, they are not obliged to grant it.
pjmlp 3y ago
Reaching 50 years old, never got this American complaint about our salaries. The whole package is what matters. We work to live, not live to work.
- dagi3d 3y ago
  For some might not be the case when talking about the health insurance...
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    Most countries have it free from the state, even if it has several issues, way better than the US situation, where even the Red Cross had to set up camp on the poorer states.
- zer0tonin 3y ago
  I think Americans also are quite delusional about how low the European salaries are. Getting six figures in Europe isn't particularly hard anymore.
  - 0xDEF 3y ago
    Europe is not one country. I live in Denmark and some of the things I have witnessed in (eastern) Germany almost felt 3rd worldish.
  - badpun 3y ago
    Probably as hard as getting $200k in the States though... "Six figures" just aren't what they used to be.
  - nxm 3y ago
    Yes but what percentage of that ends up getting taxed?
  - emptysongglass 3y ago
    I am European: our wages are much, much lower than our American tech counterparts, without taxes double, with taxes we're on average making a third of them. And that's same cost of living.
edent 3y ago
The UK's minimum wage is £10.42 per hour. That's about US$13. What's the minimum wage in the USA? And, yes, if you're a full-time minimum wage employee in the UK you get a minimum of 28 days paid holiday.
ubercore 3y ago
Anecdote time, but I moved from a decent (non-FAANG) tech salary in the US to a (locally) good salary in Norway, and feel better off as a result. In outright terms my salary took a huge hit, but there are so many little things in the US that eat up your money you don't realize over time. And the difference gets even more stark if you have children.
- lordnacho 3y ago
  This is what I don't get about the US system. You can get paid a lot of money, but it is unthinkable for someone with a good job in America to not send their kids to college, which costs a heck of a lot of money. 2.5 kids is going to cost many years of earnings to put through college, and you don't even know what amount that is since the price is flying away. In Norway you can have 10 kids and all they have to do is be diligent about doing their homework, and they will get into university.
  - acuozzo 3y ago
    We just saddle our children with private student loan debt.
- GaryNumanVevo 3y ago
  Social mobility is also a lot higher in the Western EU. I moved with my wife to the Netherlands 3 years ago. I was working a FAANG job, I took a 30% pay cut (after factoring taxes, etc). But the flip side is that the relative salary of a global tech worker in the Netherlands is MUCH higher than the average. My wife and I now have 5 separate rental properties now and growing, something we could only dream of doing in the Bay Area unless one of us hit the startup lottery. Of course I could have worked remotely for a similar pay cut and bought a bunch of rental properties in the Midwest or something, but instead we're living in a vibrant international city and have enough cash flow to pay our bills.
catboybotnet 3y ago
If pay is the only concern, why not just take up contract work and refuse benefits to get the most pay? Ignoring the other variables at play, such as cost of living and benefits, and only focusing on pay is foolish.
- unmole 3y ago
  Higher pay gives you options like being able to take unpaid time off and still coming out ahead. That's more appealing than nebulous benefits. Contract work is a fundamentally different proposition and equating it to employment is foolish.
  - maccard 3y ago
    > That's more appealing than nebulous benefits. Benefits aren't nebulous, they're concrete things. My employer offers a pension(401k) contribution, health insurance (which is a queue skip really here), income protection for long term sickness or death in service, and a "perks card" which is 95% crap but gives me a 25% discount on the largest gym chain in my area. That's just monetary. On the "non-monetary" side, I'm guaranteed 33 days _paid_ time off (and promised 40 this year), have an option to take a month _unpaid_ with notice, I have employment rights and can't just find myself without a job with no notice or dismissed for no reason. There's also the "overhead"/admin work of managing a business and handling the tax affairs. Sure it's straightforward, until HMRC decide it's audit time. > Contract work is a fundamentally different proposition and equating it to employment is foolish. That, I agree with.
- jtwaleson 3y ago
  I switched to freelance earlier this year and now make 6x compared to before. Granted, I was underpaid for the market because I was CTO in a small startup. Contract work is for when you can take the risks. You also need to have a good network and be able to sell yourself so you have a steady stream of work. Finding new work takes considerable time which you should factor in. I personally love the freedom right now, but I’m using this as an in-between period until I discover what I really want to focus on.

dotdi 3y ago

I'm shocked, I tell you. Shocked! /s Is it a suprize to anybody that employees do not appreciate being exploited for financial gain?

cynicalsecurity 3y ago

As much as I like my vacations, I would rather prefer US salary over it.

lionkor 3y ago
Does the US salary hold up against the benefits you get in a well-off EU country? Namely free healthcare, automatic payments into pension fund, strong social system if you're ever in trouble, etc.? It seems to me that, as high as US salaries are, they arent that much higher compared to European salaries when you factor all this in, plus the face that a month of that work youre paid for youre OOO
- Longhanks 3y ago
  For Germany: "Free" as in waiting for months to get an appointment with a specialist? "Pension fund" as in gigantic ponzi scheme that requires 30% of the state‘s yearly budget, with no party having any kind of plan how to save the system? "Strong social system" as in being taken advantage of with the world‘s second highest taxes? Sure, I’d rather be super poor in Europe than in the US. But anybody above the poorest, anybody that can and wants to work for a living, I’d much rather try to find my luck in America.
  - renewiltord 3y ago
    Sadly, you'll be waiting in America too if you're in SF. It's actually really poor customer service till you get the doctors.
  - rightbyte 3y ago
    > "Pension fund" as in gigantic ponzi scheme that requires 30% of the state‘s yearly budget Why is that a problem? At macro scale you can't really save money. As long as the pension payouts are somewhat balanced to pay ins each year it is kinda fine.
    - lotsofpulp 3y ago

lionkor 3y ago

> While the average American is lucky to get 11 vacation days WHAT? Does that count sick days as well, or is that a myth? Here in Germany, I get 30 vacation days per calendar year, plus any sick days, and thats fairly normal. Edit: Sure the absolute salaries here are lower, but the cost of living is vastly different and the social support structures and healthcare are different, too. That should definitely be kept in mind. I dont need to drive my car a lot, because my city is fully walkable/bikeable, and thats not a super rare thing here. There are a lot of factors. I feel vacation days are just a basic requirement for happiness, whereas being rich maybe isnt

jacobgorm 3y ago
When I first joined a US startup, they said "you can take unlimited PTO -- we suggest starting with a week per year"... I negotiated that up to the five weeks that are standard here in Denmark.
- iteria 3y ago
  That is blowing my mind 2 weeks is generally considers standard for white collar work in the US, but companies that have unlimited PTO have a higher tolerance in my experience. I take off 5 weeks a year. I found that taking off a week a quarter and then whatever random emergency days was just right for me. It's why once I experienced unlimited PTO I never went back.
- FartyMcFarter 3y ago
  "Unlimited PTO" is a red flag for me. It means that PTO will be governed by pressure, self-pressure and shame.
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    Also you do not get paid for leave you have accrued when you are terminated or quit.
    - bradleyjg 3y ago

jlnthws 3y ago

They first need to build European-style mindset to properly take advantage of this.

WeylandYutani 3y ago
This is true. I used to think that having a life outside your job was normal. But that was before I became friends with Asian expats.

laserlight 3y ago

NPR's recent Planet Money episode on the topic: [0]. [0] Europe gets more vacations than the U.S. Here are some reasons why. https://www.npr.org/2023/08/17/1194467863/europe-vacation-holiday-paid-time-off https://www.npr.org/2023/08/17/1194467863/europe-vacation-ho...

0xDEF 3y ago

Other than the expensive healthcare one thing that really brings down American quality of life is the long working hours and lack of vacation. Americans should also stop focusing on bullshit stats like "working two jobs or more". The percentage of Danish people who work two jobs or more is roughly the same as in the US. The real problem are the long working hours and lack of vacation in the US.

kramerger 3y ago

It has been shown that you need around 14 days of interrupted rest to recover from stress etc. The European laws are not some random thing we made up because we are lazy. It is to ensure workers are well rested and ready for a new working year. Hence in long term it will also benefit employers. Some personal anecdata: I notice an immediate difference when I come back after a long vacation. The first 2-3 months I work at top efficiency, get probably done twice as much as I would do any other month.

switch007 3y ago
> The European laws are not some random thing we made up because we are lazy. In the case of the UK, much of the working hours, weekends, time off for bank holidays etc were hard-won agreements and rights from the Industrial Revolution era to the 20th century. The UK led the charge with many of these things too I wish more people understood this. We had basically slave labour, workhouses, horrific factories etc
renewiltord 3y ago
How long is that long term because there aren't that many great European companies.
- rpadovani 3y ago
  I count 10 European companies on this list, and 20 US. Maybe is not as bad as you think? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_companies_by_revenue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_companies_by_r...
  - veave 3y ago
    I only count 6. Switzerland and the UK are not part of the EU. (The article is about the EU, not Europe)
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]

anoncow 3y ago

Water is wet?

personomas 3y ago
I think actually more newsworthy here is that only 66% of Americans want extended holidays haha

1letterunixname 3y ago

Meanwhile, Americans don't know how bad they have it and are far more productive for more hours for less money. Perhaps Americans should unionize smartly more and insist on collective bargaining for workplace safety, proper healthcare, and livable wages to start? Most Americans are living paycheck-to-paycheck and don't have much hope for their future. They feel like they're going to work until they drop without a plan or the resources to grow old with a shred of dignity.

bananapub 3y ago

what's wrong with the other 34%?

NamTaf 3y ago
They're the bosses

speedgoose 3y ago

I’m concerned about the 21% who don’t want a better quality of life. What’s going on with them?

0xDEF 3y ago
If Americans want the same quality of life as we have here in Denmark they should tax the top 20% more so it doesn't surprise me that the top 20% come out against things like higher taxes and more worker rights. I'm probably among the top 5% here in Denmark and I'm fine with paying high taxes.
- memefrog 3y ago
  You can't tax your way to wealth. Taxing the rich more won't make the quality of life of the average person better. The rich already pay the OVERWHELMING majority of tax.
  - speedgoose 3y ago
    The rich wouldn’t be rich without poorer people. Also I’m a bit dubious about your statement, it goes against what I can quickly search for but I would gladly be proven wrong.
    - memefrog 3y ago
      "High-Income Taxpayers Paid the Majority of Federal Income Taxes. In 2020, the bottom half of taxpayers earned 10.2 percent of total AGI and paid 2.3 percent of all federal individual income taxes. The top 1 percent earned 22.2 percent of total AGI and paid 42.3 percent of all federal income taxes." https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/federal/summary-latest-federal-income-tax-data-2023-update/ https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/federal/summary-latest-fe... In New Zealand, about 12% of individuals pay about 50% of personal income tax, and the top 3% pay about a quarter. That doesn't take into account the amount they are taxed indirectly through GST or through company tax on companies they own shares in.

larusso 3y ago

I‘ve been to the US for a long vacation (4,5 weeks or with traveltime and rest day before and after a whole month). I was able to do this because I have 35 days of vacation (a bonus program from my employer, stay more then x years and your vacation days increase. I have the maximum after 7 years) While I was traveling through south California and Arizona I dreamed how awesome it would be to live here and be able to visit more awesome sites without a 11-13h flight and all the other costs. Then I realized: If I would live and work here I might not get the vacation days I‘m used to, to do all these things. Bubble bursted for the time being. Or are there exceptions? I also include a normal weekly hour rate. I work 40h a week and can be very flexible with these times.

mutex_man 3y ago
I get ~28 vacation days per year in the US, and I've only been with my company for 5 years. It's going to heavily depend on your industry and level of experience. Even outside of vacation I also have a pretty relaxed work/life balance. If I want to visit family for 2 weeks but not take a bunch of vacation my boss isn't going to care if I work half days remote the whole time.
- larusso 3y ago
  Ok nice to hear that it is possible ;) See with the overall generalization one thinks in Europe we are constantly on holiday and in the US the people work 50-60 hours a week and have to count the days until the next vacation.
GaryNumanVevo 3y ago
While you might be able to find a good company that offers a lot of vacation (relatively compared to other US firms), culture is ultimately the biggest roadblock for people actually taking the time they need. I've worked at many places that have "unlimited time off" but in reality people worked more on average because it can be difficult to negotiate that time off with your manager.

codr7 3y ago

Forget about 4 weeks; I took 7 weeks off this summer, next year I'm going for 8.

xetifafa 3y ago

If anyone is interested in an anecdote from a US American mid level dev living in Germany: I get 30 paid vacation days, 10 ish public holidays and my employer has to pay up to 6 weeks of sick leave a year (after that the public health insurance pays). I make around 75k€ with a 38 hour work week and my take home is roughly 3600€ net. My living expenses are less than 1k (mid sized city, no car, split rent, no kids) so I am able to invest 2-2.5x my living expenses every a month.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
That's a very good wage for mid level dev. Which City?
- xetifafa 3y ago
  Don't want to give too many details but it's in NRW close to Cologne.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    Aren't rents there insane?
    - xetifafa 3y ago
      Not as bad as Berlin, Munich or Hamburg. I split around 1k€ (warm) for a newly remodeled/renovated 60m2 apartment in a very hip area close to the city center.
      - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
        So the total rent is 1k or 2k?
stop50 3y ago
Consecutive sick days. If you got in the icu because of corona for 5 weeks and the month after that because you got into a car crash for 4 weeks the employer has to pay for all the 9 weeks.

badpun 3y ago

It's also worth pointing out that, in many European countries (Nordics, Italy, probably Germany as well?) it's perfectly ok to just take say most of July or August off, along with everyone else. It's disruptive to the business (to the point that it's taken into account when planning things), esp. in complex companies, where a couple of key managers or architects missing means an entire initiative can stall for the duration- but it's part of the culture and business owners are just accepting this. Also, even the senior key people are often not really expected to answers emails during vacation. It might be different at the director level and above, but they're pretty much all workaholics anyway, so they don't mind.

stop50 3y ago
Some german companies may do this, but at most i saw comapnies to give prio to parents and if there is still free capacity its given to the others.
vikaveri 3y ago
One company I worked for enforced vacations. If someone from work absolutely had to call you on your vacation day, ask a question or password, anything, you'd get a do-over for your day. No one ever called anyone on vacation without a damn good reason. Checking and answering emails on vacation was discouraged as well
- paulmd 3y ago
  this is actually required in some finance-centered fields in the US, because historically many frauds/ponzis/etc have fallen apart when their key players happened to be out-of-office or incommunicado for a few weeks, and a fresh set of eyes got to look at the books. "wait, that doesn't look right... hmmm..." https://www.fdic.gov/regulations/safety/manual/section4-2.pdf https://www.fdic.gov/regulations/safety/manual/section4-2.pd... > Vacation Policies > Banks should have a policy that requires all officers and employees to be absent from their duties for an uninterrupted period of not less than two consecutive weeks. Absence can be in the form of vacation, rotation of duties, or a combination of both activities. Such policies are highly effective in preventing embezzlements, which usually require a perpetrator’s ongoing presence to manipulate records, respond to inquiries, and otherwise prevent detection. The benefits of such policies are substantially, if not totally, eroded if the duties normally performed by an individual are not assumed by someone else. > Where a bank’s policies do not conform to the two-week recommended absence, examiners should discuss the benefits of this control with senior management and the board of directors and encourage them to annually review and approve the bank’s actual policy and any exceptions. In cases where a two-week absent-from-duty policy is not in place, the institution should establish appropriate compensating controls that are strictly enforced. Any significant deficiencies in an institution's vacation policy or compensating controls should be discussed in the ROE and reflected in the Management component of the Uniform Financial Institutions Rating System (UFIRS). Note: Management should consider suspending or restricting an individual’s normal IT access rights during periods of prolonged absence, especially for employees with remote or high-level access rights. At a minimum, management should consider monitoring and reporting remote access during periods of prolonged absence.

EoinB 3y ago

I was born and educated in Scotland, worked in the UK for a decade or so, then moved to the US and worked for big tech for 15 years while living in the US and becoming a US citizen. I then chose to move back to Scotland, where I continue to work for the same US big tech company but get paid UK wages with UK employment benefits. So, I've lived significant portions of my life on both sides. Here in the UK, I get 29 days paid vacation plus ten or so (not sure) public holidays. If I am sick on vacation, I can claim those days as sick days and regain the vacation time. Edit: plus, my contract is for 35 hours per week whereas in the US it was 40. Regarding money, I am doing the same job that I was doing in the US (same team etc.) but took, what was at the time, a 25% reduction in gross salary. However, by the time you add in the higher taxes, my take home pay (from my salary - my stock awards are the same) is about 40% lower than it was in the US. Now, I am nearing 50, my corporate career progression is plateauing/settled (by choice, btw) and I have a teenage daughter. A big reason for coming back to Scotland was so she could be educated here and experience European life and culture during her formative years. The other big reason was to have a better work-life balance. I have so much non-work time here, I can actually pursue non-work interests; whereas my US work colleagues seem to always be Slacking and "checking in" while they are on vacation; never seeming to have an identity beyond their job. I have also lost 13kg (29lb) in weight. For us techies, the US is the place to get rich, but, in my experience, there are significant lifestyle compromises that you must make in order to do so. Edit: I was curious about the numbers, so I did a little arithmetic to work out the hourly wage I earned in the US and the hourly wage I earn here in the UK, taking into consideration the vacation days. My UK gross per hour wage is between 11% and 15% lower than my US salary, depending on the (volatile) exchange rate. Of course, UK tax is much higher (my marginal rate is 49%). So, the difference in take-home pay is more than that.

glimshe 3y ago
I work in a major tech company and never check email outside work hours, which I cap at 40 hours a week. I never work weekends, never check work during weekends or vacations. I make much more than my European peers, have a better car, better weather and bigger house. I have 25 days of paid vacation. While this is better than the US average, I don't know a single person in my friends group wanting to trade the US for Europe, including my Europe-born friends.

Moldoteck 3y ago

Regardless of what you think, in the best path is being an eu citizen, work in us(some high paying job like IT) for 5-10 years, return in eu with huge cash, buy a home, work some more chill years for minimal pension and happily retire. Eu is nice to retire if you are eu citizen and have enough cash(by either working some years in us or remotely for us conpanies but a bit less pay)

mmmmmbop 3y ago
Agreed. It's a good strategy to benefit from the "free" education for both you and your kids.
ChatGTP 3y ago
Do you pay tax in Europe while in the US, or just do the parasitical thing?
- mmmmmbop 3y ago
  How would you go about paying tax in Europe while in the US? The European countries I'm familiar with will not consider you a tax resident while living abroad, so they won't allow you to pay taxes.
  - ChatGTP 3y ago
    I get this way of living is personally advantageous but it's pretty shitty right? Work in the USA, pay lower tax there and get higher salary, fly back to Europe and take advantage of everyone's contributions to get yourself free healthcare while having contributed nothing yourself ?
    - mmmmmbop 3y ago
      If you were just trying to make that point, your previous comment comes across as a snarky leading question. From the HN guidelines: > Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously; don't cross-examine. Edit out swipes. In any case, it doesn't seem fair to frame it the way you did. If a high-earning engineer spends 5-10 years in the US to build wealth before returning to Europe to work at a 250k€ job for 7 more years before finally retiring, they'll still have contributed more in income taxes and social contributions in their home country during those 7 years than the median employee during their lifetime. At the same time, they will receive much lower state pensions since they only contributed for 7 years, and they will never take advantage of the unemployment benefits they contributed to. This is ignoring other contributions such as VAT on their personal consumption (which will likely be higher than average) and on the consumption of their relatives they may support. There's also the non-negligible aspect of bringing highly specialized knowledge and expertise back to their home country, which may increase the country's productivity by second order effects. Finally, at least in the two European countries I'm familiar with, Switzerland and Germany, you'll still have to pay monthly premiums for the "free health care" until retirement age.

tpetry 3y ago

Everyone starts to compare quality of live and salaries in America vs. Europe. But you are missing the biggest point! Not everyone is working in IT. And a ton of people do not make $200k+/year. We're in a group that is very well paid. But most are not. And for them European vacation policies or a social system that doesn't ruin you when you are ill are a big difference. Everone working it IT is speaking from within an ivory tower.

maccard 3y ago
I'd rather make £75k in most parts of the UK than $200k in most parts of the US.

jdthedisciple 3y ago

I'll take 5x the salary over a measly 20 extra vacation days any day, thanks. 70k a year for a highly skilled software dev is an absolute joke. At least that allows me to generate wealth and retire 20-30 years sooner compared to your average German.

apexalpha 3y ago
German retirement age is 66. So unless you are very young I guess you're retired now? How's that going? Also congrats on the $350,000 salary as a dev at the age of 30. There's no one in Europe making that as dev, not even in the Netherlands or Switzerland, not even close!
- mmmmmbop 3y ago
  In Switzerland, top companies will pay $350k+ for senior engineers and above.
  - jdthedisciple 3y ago
    Right, with simultaneously lower tax rates. None of the alleged benefits in Germany offset or justify the discrepancies to similarly developed countries.
- jdthedisciple 3y ago
  Meh, $350k is good but comparatively not even too much in some areas of the US, like NY or SF. > There's no one in Europe making that as dev, not even in the Netherlands or Switzerland, not even close! Exactly! Which is ridiculous! And people always bring up "free healthcare!" as a counter but it doesn't really offset this vast discrepancy for someone with a generally healthy lifestyle. How are people in Europe wage-slaving like that all their life? Edit: Lest it is misunderstood, this is not to demean the people. Rather, it is meant to critique the system. Free healthcare shouldn't mean having to give up indefinitely more in other regards. Furthermore, I'm sure European corporations too make millions and billions of €€ every year, so why can't they afford to pay competitively? Lastly taxes are obviously way too high and the pension rates are ridiculous for working 40-50 yrs. In short I'm critiquing the whole system. Just imagine, you have the same skill, same daily struggles, same effort, same trouble waking up in the morning... but you make in a day what your mirror in another place makes in an hour.

bitcharmer 3y ago

The number of delusional Americans with strong exceptional vibes on this thread is pretty frightening.

dang 3y ago
You posted nationalistic flamebait several times in this thread. That's not ok, regardless of which country you have a problem with. Please don't post like this to HN again. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- bitcharmer 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - dang 3y ago
    Of course not. Note the word "regardless" above.

acuozzo 3y ago

It amazes me how few of these comments are about neighbors. I'm a Software Engineer as well, but most people are not. The EU system helps ensure you're not surrounded by people made entirely miserable by their wage slavery. Who would want to be surrounded by miserable fucks? I live in the US state with the highest median income: Maryland. I feel lucky to have pursued a career here because I didn't grow up here and I didn't know much about Maryland beforehand. I now feel as though I couldn't live elsewhere within the US. I was surrounded by exhausted, overworked, miserable people growing up in NJ and I see so much less misery here even though I interact with people from many different socioeconomic backgrounds; up and down the ladder.