22 ms·

Zoom terms now allow training AI on user content with no opt out

• eh9 3y ago
  I do therapy and group therapy on Zoom, are they going to train a therapist AI? Does this go around HIPAA privacy rules? Would they keep a file on phi?
  • hammock 3y ago
    The ToS clearly says all "Customer Content/Customer Input" AKA your words, text, voice, face, etc can be used for "Product and Services Development" which could as easily be a facial recognition database, an FBI-style database of dirt on individuals, or literally anything else before it's an AI.
    • glitcher 3y ago
      ToS can't negate HIPAA or any other laws that could potentially be violated though.
      • whiddershins 3y ago
        HIPAA allows you to waive your privacy rights … not sure whether a TOS would count.
      • deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
• menacepineapple 3y ago
  [dead]
• freedude 3y ago
  They updated their TOS again today. https://explore.zoom.us/en/terms/ https://explore.zoom.us/en/terms/
• jgalt212 3y ago
  What happens if I say DROP TABLE every now and again in a meeting? just for the lulz.
• TahoeBlue 3y ago
  The original posting about “no opt-out” was either incorrect, or prior to the current terms of service, per the following from the Zoom site: ( https://blog.zoom.us/zooms-term-service-ai/ https://blog.zoom.us/zooms-term-service-ai/ ) ” It’s important to us at Zoom to empower our customers with innovative and secure communication solutions. We’ve updated our terms of service (in section 10.4) to further confirm that we will not use audio, video, or chat customer content to train our artificial intelligence models without your consent. ” (unless that is a “distinction without a difference” — meaning, how does one opt-out )
• isodev 3y ago
  10.2 … You agree that Zoom compiles and may compile Service Generated Data based on Customer Content and use of the Services and Software. You consent to Zoom’s access, use, collection, creation, modification, distribution, processing, sharing, maintenance, and storage of Service Generated Data for any purpose, to the extent and in the manner permitted under applicable Law, including for the purpose of product and service development, marketing, analytics, quality assurance, machine learning or artificial intelligence (including for the purposes of training and tuning of algorithms and models), training, testing, improvement of the Services, Software, or Zoom’s other products, services, and software, or any combination thereof, and as otherwise provided in this Agreement
  • sjmulder 3y ago
    "..for any purpose", how is this ever supposed to fly in the EU or UK? Should be opt-in, not in the small print, and entirely optional.
    • jodrellblank 3y ago
      “…for any purpose, to the extent and in the manner permitted under applicable Law”
    • jsnell 3y ago
      You're both misquoting and misunderstanding. Misquoting in that you clipped out the "to the extent and in the manner permitted under applicable Law". And misunderstanding since the text was talking "service generated data", not about "customer data". That's basically data generated by their system (e.g. debug logs). It's not the data you entered into the system (contact information), the calls you made, the chats you sent, etc. Also, the linked document is effectively a license for the intellectual property rights. The data protection side of things would be covered by the privacy policy[0]. This all seems pretty standard? [0] https://explore.zoom.us/en/privacy/ https://explore.zoom.us/en/privacy/
      • sjmulder 3y ago
        You're right, I was too quick to judge. Sorry.
• ginko 3y ago
  Does that include corporate zoom contracts?
  • Maxious 3y ago
    You can self host the enterprise tier "User and meeting metadata are managed in the public cloud while the meeting traffic including video, audio and data-sharing goes through the Meeting Connector in your company network." https://explore.zoom.us/docs/en-us/plan/enterprise.html https://explore.zoom.us/docs/en-us/plan/enterprise.html
    • bippihippi1 3y ago
      good luck finding the telemetry in the decompiled meeting connector server
      • jabradoodle 3y ago
        Not that hard to packet sniff or add a firewall
        • ta1243 3y ago
          Zoom sends encrypted traffic to their servers, for "control" purposes. How are you sure it's not leaking your company secrets. There's no way that a legal team will be happy with an attempted technical block to what is a legal problem. Simply cancel the zoom contract. It's not like there aren't alternatives. If this applies to corporate accounts then it's time to short Zoom like there's no tomorrow.
  • hyperbovine 3y ago
    Regardless, you should complain to your org about this. I’m sure it’s where all their (Zoom’s) revenue comes from. If enough of us do it, they will listen.
• the_lego 3y ago
  What user content does Zoom the company have access to? Connection metadata, call video, call audio..?
  • isodev 3y ago
    Also, any messages, files and contacts you share via their service.
• abecedarius 3y ago
  Why not switch? I've had good experiences with competitors. I don't know if they're as nice for mass meetings instead of one-to-one or small groups, but at least for the chats I've had, there's never been any reason to go to Zoom. (I care more about spyware, privacy, and user sovereignty than AI training.)
  • landgenoot 3y ago
    Because "company policies"
    • hiepph 3y ago
      This. I personally can switch but how do I communicate with my other colleagues? It's hard to convey people to move into a whole new stack without significant effort.
      • abecedarius 3y ago
        FWIW it's gone all right with Google Meet as the usual suggestion from me -- though as I said, it's been only small-group chats. Most of my colleagues have Chrome. If really necessary for some particular chat I can use Zoom's in-browser page, ignoring its ridiculous auto-download of the native client. (I didn't even know a page could do that, before.)
  • ta1243 3y ago
    Presumably Microsoft does the same with Teams
    • e40 3y ago
      Or worse. Skype tos were changed to allow eavesdropping for quality control purposes, some time after the purchase.
  • lucb1e 3y ago
    > I've had good experiences with competitors That's flipped for me: I've had good experiences with zoom on occasion. The only time we use Zoom is with US customers, so a handful of times per year I'd estimate. Before covid, I only ever heard of Zoom in the context of laughably bad vulnerabilities; then during covid, suddenly it was a new verb used online to mean video calls. In a world where there are many established players (until 2019-12-31, I had already used: skype/lync, jitsi, discord, signal, whatsapp, wire, telegram, hangouts, webex, jami/ring, and gotomeeting) are already established players, why in the world would anyone ever choose to go with specifically the company that we all laughed at? I don't get it, and it seems most of our customers (mostly european) either
• _ddzr 3y ago
  Thankfully nothing like this is in Jitsi Meet’s TOS: https://jitsi.org/meet-jit-si-terms-of-service/ https://jitsi.org/meet-jit-si-terms-of-service/ It never ceases to amaze me how companies choose the worst software!
  • tradevapp 3y ago
    I use Zoom for work and never got an email explaining that suddenly they can use call recordings to train some AI models and sell this to 3rd parties.
  • arielcostas 3y ago
    Actually, they only affect their hosted meet.jit.si service, right? Not if you self-host Jitsi on your own server (which you should if you're a medium-large company, for data protection and all that)
    • lucb1e 3y ago
      Of course. If you run it yourself, you're free to train your neural nets on your users, if that's something you want to do For restrictions on what you can do with the code, you'll need to check the code's license, not the hosted-service's terms of use
  • arun-mani-j 3y ago
    +1 for Jitsi. They are awesome, lightweight, and just work with the least hassle. Pretty bad that many nontechnical users are not aware of it compared to Google Meet or Teams.
    • chii 3y ago
      This is just a marketing problem aint it? Unfortunately, one big marketing resource is also owned by said competitor...opps. So where are those antitrust laws again?
    • Knee_Pain 3y ago
      lightweight? they are literally the only video chatting service I use that makes my laptop fans spin up.
• lopatin 3y ago
  Does GMail do this for spam detection? I always thought they do but didn't read the TOS.
  • pavlov 3y ago
    Google also used to read email contents for targeted advertising. This was a major point of contention when Gmail was introduced in 2004. They stopped 13 years later: https://www.fastcompany.com/4041720/heres-why-it-took-gmail-13-years-to-stop-scanning-your-email-to-target-ads https://www.fastcompany.com/4041720/heres-why-it-took-gmail-... Most people just don’t care though.
• traceroute66 3y ago
  I assume this only applies to their standard service and not when you activate the E2E encryption option ?
  • NullPrefix 3y ago
    we have a comedian here
• tikkun 3y ago
  What are the alternatives people have tried and had good experiences with?
  • jeltz 3y ago
    I have tried most of them: Google Meet, Teams, Slack, Discord, Skype, Jitsi and so far I liked Jitsi the most and Skype the least.
    • tikkun 3y ago
      That's helpful to know you tried all of those. Based on that plus all the other Jitsi mentions in the thread, I'll give Jitsi a try.
    • jenadine 3y ago
      There is also Nextcloud Talk
  • cj 3y ago
    We use Google Meet at our company for everything including external client and vendor calls. Not to say Google has the best track record with privacy… but its feature set is on par with Zoom in most areas (I personally like it because it’s 100% sandboxed in the browser)
    • randerson 3y ago
      Google at least has a better track record with _security_ than Zoom.
    • PeterisP 3y ago
      How does it work for larger meetings? At the start of Covid I had to check many options, and while for many use-cases Google Meet was most convenient, it started to work poorly if there were a bunch of people connected, so I used Google Meet for calls with 2 (or 3) people and something else (e.g. Zoom) for anything larger.
• morkalork 3y ago
  Isn't this a huge legal minefield when you think about schools using zoom for online learning?
  • kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 3y ago
    And hospitals and doctor's offices and lawyers and...
    • davidf18 3y ago
      [dead]
  • lotsofpulp 3y ago
    Once you have enough budget for full time lawyers, legal minefields are just another thing to test. Many times, the mines will be inactive, at least long enough to earn money. Better to ask for forgiveness than permission, etc.
    • ta1243 3y ago
      My company has been asked to sign a form 899, which seems to be interpreted as meaning we have to ensure that our entire supply chain does not use Huawei I'm not sure how we can do that. For example the only ISP we can use in one of our offices provides internet via a devices with a Huawei MAC address. Now fine, I can see it's part, we could close the office, but how can I confirm that a security contractor we have in Kabul doesn't own a Huaweii mobile phone? I'm sure our company employs foreign agents somewhere in the company -- there was always an open secret that the cleaner in the Moscow office worked for the KGB. It's with our lawyers, but they basically say the way it's been presented is any business with operations in any way reliant on the internet cannot sign the form. Maybe they're overparanoid. Maybe US legal practice is that you sign and hope for the best. I can see jobs programs for rocket scientists to stop them emigrating, but for lawyers?
      • davidf18 3y ago
        [dead]
• DueDilligence 3y ago
  [dead]
• dleeftink 3y ago
  It will be interesting to see whether Snap-like filters running locally and other facial feature obfuscation tech will cross over to enable opting out more drastically.
• LinuxBender 3y ago
  I am curious if they have been silently saving voice to text transcription in the background on all calls and if AI will be permitted to ingest all of that data. A great deal could be learned from private one on one calls in the corporate world. The insider knowledge one could gain about corporations and governments would be fascinating.
  • naillo 3y ago
    Their mouths must be watering at this thought but the legal repercussions are obviously company destroying
    • j45 3y ago
      It wouldn’t be surprising. Gotta make sure audio is clear on calls. How? We run randomly less random speech to text to make sure words are being said. Which words? Well if any are on this list of words we might think have to tell someone.
  • musha68k 3y ago
    I feel as if 2023 could become the inflection point where we will finally start investing in our own infrastructure again. Video calls for example are really a commodity service to be set up at this point.
    • SoftTalker 3y ago
      Where I work they have been running in-house video meeting infrastructure for close to 20 years. They abandonded all the equipment and expertiese a few years ago in favor of Zoom. For all its faults, it's just so much easier for users. They probably saved 10 or more minutes per meeting of "Can you hear me? Can you see us? Can you see my screen?" BS at the start of each meeting. I guess it also helps that these days most people are working with phones or laptops that have integrated and well supported cameras and microphones, vs. then when that stuff would have been external peripherals and required installation of the proper drivers.
    • TheRealPomax 3y ago
• ta1243 3y ago
  "I am altering the deal. Pray I do not alter it any further." My company pays for zoom, presumably we agreed to some form of terms before this change. Is this the same TOS for paid accounts too?
  • rany_ 3y ago
    I think so, given that it mentions the case of the client being a paying customer: > 31.3 Data Processing Addendum. If you are a business, enterprise, or education account owner and your use of the Services requires Zoom to process an End User’s personal data under a data processing agreement, Zoom will process such personal data subject to Zoom’s Global Data Processing Addendum. Though it limits the scope of the data collection: https://explore.zoom.us/docs/doc/Zoom_GLOBAL_DPA.pdf https://explore.zoom.us/docs/doc/Zoom_GLOBAL_DPA.pdf
    • nerdponx 3y ago
      To some extent, I don't know how much I care. This is my employers problem, not mine. Where it actually starts to bother me is when I need to use a platform like Zoom for a job interview. Now I'm forced to download this spyware onto my personal computer and forced to consent to a whole bunch of things I would rather not consent to, as a private individual, rather than as a representative of my employer.
      • rany_ 3y ago
        I've never had to install their application on my machine. The web version performs works well for me, if anything it performs better than their app ever did.
  • unnouinceput 3y ago
    That's a question for you company's legal department, not HN
• ohdannyboy 3y ago
  Zoom is the standard tool I've seen therapists use. I wonder if they use a hippa compliant vl variant.
  • Spooky23 3y ago
    Zoom definitely sells that.
• jxf 3y ago
  edit: I'm retracting my earlier comment. Earlier I wrote that the headline didn't seem to match what was in the TOS, since OP never mentioned which part they're concerned about. I'm now assuming the part they don't like is §10.4(ii): > 10.4 Customer License Grant. You agree to grant and hereby grant Zoom a perpetual, worldwide, non-exclusive, royalty-free, sublicensable, and transferable license and all other rights required or necessary to redistribute, publish, import, access, use, store, transmit, review, disclose, preserve, extract, modify, reproduce, share, use, display, copy, distribute, translate, transcribe, create derivative works, and process Customer Content and to perform all acts with respect to the Customer Content: [...] _(ii) for the purpose of product and service development, marketing, analytics, quality assurance, machine learning, artificial intelligence, training, testing, improvement of the Services, Software, or Zoom’s other products, services, and software, or any combination thereof_ Notice that 10.4(ii) says they can use Customer Content "for ... machine learning, artificial intelligence, training", which is certainly allowing training on user content.
  • gunapologist99 3y ago
    Good catch jxf! but what is that boundary line between SGD and Customer Input/Content? Is it blurry or clearly defined? It seems like things like translations or future enhancements might fall into that area (it also seems like training AI on diags isn't as useful), so this might be expanded in the future now that they have that language in place.
    • westcort 3y ago
      It is defined not at all. Sorry if this is bad for your investment decisions, jxf, but this company is not trustworthy.
      • jxf 3y ago
        I don't have any positions in Zoom (although I did have some puts last year that I've since closed out).
  • westcort 3y ago
• gunapologist99 3y ago
  Given how many large companies outright ban using AI for codegen etc (including Google!), will this cause some of those large companies to find alternatives to Zoom, or is it just too ingrained? (I remember when WebEx was the default choice for large companies, and now that's largely changed, but that was because Cisco allowed WebEx to mostly wither on the vine, while Zoom is still a great product, if not company.) What about in govt, US or otherwise? Is Zoom still going to be used?
  • hef19898 3y ago
    That makes Zoom basically a no-go for any company. IP needs to be protected, if your video conference provider can use all data you share using his platform for AI training, meaning he has access to it, he is most likely out. Microsoft says thank you.
  • rolph 3y ago
    ZOOM is and always was a tool of espionage, find something else or purge your infra. we dont need a zoom video chat to get things done.
• deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
• version_five 3y ago
  To be fair, there's no way Microsoft isn't doing something worse with data from Teams. And the only reason google "products" exist is to mine data to sell ads. I can see how we'd expect better from a company focused on video chat, but it's not like any of their big competitors are actually treating your data respectfully.
  • CreRecombinase 3y ago
    That’s absolutely not true about Microsoft. They’re very clear about how they use your data. If they’re mining data in secret against their own terms that’s felonious criminal behavior.
    • version_five 3y ago
      > They’re very clear about how they use your data You lost me there. Every day there seem to be new terms in new places about what they do. I have absolutely no idea if I've managed to find and turn off all the spying that they want to do, and even if I have I assume they still have terms that let them do what they want that they've opted me in to.
    • I_am_tiberius 3y ago
      I remember when their server visited urls people posted in skype conversations. That was creepy as well.
• pawelwentpawel 3y ago
  Does this mean that ZOOM is basically using every attendee's audio and video stream to train their models? How do they define the "Service Generated Data"? I made a video-conferencing app for virtual events (https://flat.social https://flat.social). No audio and video is ever recorded, packets are only forwarded to subscribed clients. Frankly, while designing the service it didn't even cross my mind to use this data for anything else than the online event itself.
  • rolph 3y ago
    this means that ZOOM is basically using every attendee's audio and video stream[.] AI training is small potatoes, compared to the espionage infrastructure, that has been allowed to take root
• rsync 3y ago
  Do the terms of service require that my content be truthful or even reflective of reality in any way ? Do the terms of service disallow machine generated content ? How soon until this becomes an arms race between zoom and those that would attempt to poison zoom ? (Asking for a friend…)
• duringmath 3y ago
  Using user generated data to train an AI is no different than scanning it for spam or any other administrative function, and using public data to train your AI model is fair use and everyone should get over it already.
  • Havoc 3y ago
    >Using user generated data to train an AI is no different than scanning it for spam That's definitely not true. Under some circumstances LLMs can spit out large chunks of the original content verbatim. Meaning this can actively leak the contents of a confidential discussion out into a completely different context, a risk that does not exist with spam scanning.
• api 3y ago
  Lots of businesses use Zoom for very private things like law and finance. I smell lawsuits.
  • deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  • gorbachev 3y ago
    Yep. If accurate, this will never fly with my employer. We will have an email from someone very high up in the organization very soon explaining how we can no longer use Zoom, and the software will be automatically uninstalled on all the devices they control shortly prior to that email being sent out.
  • amelius 3y ago
    Yes, LLMs can reproduce data that is in the training set.
• albert_e 3y ago
  At the scale of Zoom and MS Teams ... you could theoretically train an AI model that can autonomously conduct all meetings businesses ever need -- all day every day -- without any human ever needing to attend. So much productivity claimed back! GenAI provides the agenda, GenAI bots log in with a AI avatar and spout hallucinations, bots agree to disagree and setup a followup meeting next week after resolving fake calendar conflicts amongst themselves. Minutes and action items are sent out and reviewed in next meeting, jiras are updated, CRs approved, budgets allocated and rescinded.
  • yacine_ 3y ago
    sign me up lmao
    • hypercube33 3y ago
      If you watch the video for office 365 next with ai it's basically this and really made me question things.
      • rizky05 3y ago
        [dead]
      • dfxm12 3y ago
        Microsoft is very good at marketing. Their materials, like videos, rarely map to tell functionally of the service. My job has, in part, become tempering people's expectations for Microsoft copilot.
        • dbish 3y ago
          This is why I mostly don’t worry about what they’re up to as a competitor in a particular product space. It’s rare that their advertised features match (with good quality) their released features.
  • javajosh 3y ago
    As long as the paychecks aren't hallucinations I'm good with it.
• tikkun 3y ago
  I've posted an Ask HN thread about which other companies are doing this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37022000 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37022000
• eddieroger 3y ago
  Remote work has enough threats with return to office looming that we really don't need Zoom to also be the bad guys now, again, since it was hard enough getting them in the door the first time.
  • aiisjustanif 3y ago
    Zoom is still used without remote work. Businesses talk to other businesses and talk to other offices that are not in the same location. Pretty common for a Fortune 500 to have more than one office location.
• koolala 3y ago
  At what point are they actually stealing our souls to train AI? Art? Private comments to our loved ones?
  • javajosh 3y ago
    Not stealing it, copying it. And your loved ones will be glad to have a copy after you die. You're welcome!
    • CatWChainsaw 3y ago
      Why should I value my loved ones now if I can just get emotional completion from a copy of them after they die? That's the endgame here. Says a lot about you, I think.
    • williamtrask 3y ago
      For a price…
• beebeepka 3y ago
  I guess I am just too cynical because I have zero doubt everything is transcribed, analyzed, and stored for later use. Why wouldn't they do it? There are massive monetary incentives to do so. I don't think it's just apps. Telecoms have collected incredible amount of data and have been using it. Yes, even in the EU where things are supposedly better in this regard.
• e40 3y ago
  Honest question: are the Google and microsoft tos any better? Mainly curious about Google, since that is what I would use as an alternative.
• user6723 3y ago
  There should be jail time for asking someone to be subject to third party surveillance anywhere commercial activity is involved. "Sorry anon, we won't point a web browser at your colocated Jitsi instance, please install this malware named Zoom and let a third party gather your likeness to deepfake you better". Put these cunts in jail.
• deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
• Waterluvian 3y ago
  “Meeting about having a meeting detected. Shutting down.”
• musha68k 3y ago
  I’m not the biggest slack fan but I won’t join any further personal zoom meetings going forward; will switch to slack “huddles” at the workplace instead.
• illwrks 3y ago
  And so begins the creation of digital doubles of the ordinary person.... Face to face meetings will be the only thing you can trust in future.
  • HKH2 3y ago
    > Face to face meetings will be the only thing you can trust in future. Except if you have a chip implanted.
• garydgregory 3y ago
  Switch to Jitsi...
• rolph 3y ago
  The Dawn of A.I. Mischief Models https://slate.com/technology/2022/08/4chan-ai-open-source-trolling.html https://slate.com/technology/2022/08/4chan-ai-open-source-tr... Adversarial machine learning explained: How attackers disrupt AI and ML systems https://www.csoonline.com/article/573031/adversarial-machine-learning-explained-how-attackers-disrupt-ai-and-ml-systems.html https://www.csoonline.com/article/573031/adversarial-machine... How to attack Machine Learning ( Evasion, Poisoning, Inference, Trojans, Backdoors) https://towardsdatascience.com/how-to-attack-machine-learning-evasion-poisoning-inference-trojans-backdoors-a7cb5832595c?gi=79bdd687e818 https://towardsdatascience.com/how-to-attack-machine-learnin... AI Security and Adversarial Machine Learning 101 https://towardsdatascience.com/ai-and-ml-security-101-6af8026675ff https://towardsdatascience.com/ai-and-ml-security-101-6af802... The Road to Secure and Trusted AI https://adversa.ai/report-secure-and-trusted-ai/ https://adversa.ai/report-secure-and-trusted-ai/
• danielvaughn 3y ago
  Between this and their decision to enforce a return-to-office policy, I think it's safe to say that Zoom is making some questionable executive decisions. No company in their right mind is going to be okay with having their business meetings recorded and loaded into an AI model.
  • gruez 3y ago
    The charitable interpretation of this is that they're launching some sort of AI product (eg. meeting summarizer) that's opt in, but the legal department went too board with their ToS wording.
• nologic01 3y ago
  The conventional (actually drivel) explanation is that individuals don't care about their online footprint because: convenience, free, nothing to hide etc. But how to explain that corporates don't care? Any value extracted from their casual attitude toward online information flows is value that nominally belongs to their shareholders. Commercial secrecy is a required fundation for any enterprise. The whole edifice of current tech business models seems to be resting on false pillars.
• kwanbix 3y ago
  Related to zoom: I started to use it (pay user), and no matter what I try, I never get the confirmation/appointment emails. I have tried inviting google, yahoo, gmx, zoho, and cloudflare emails, I never receive anything. Zoom support is BS, even if you are paying.
• Hamcha 3y ago
  How does this work with GDPR? As far as I'm aware (not a lawyer) you must provide a easy opt-out from data collection and usage, plus you must not force your employees into such agreements[1]. ChatGPT already got blocked over GDPR issues, and with new regulations coming forward I really don't see how they think this can be the right call. 1. https://commission.europa.eu/law/law-topic/data-protection/reform/rights-citizens/how-my-personal-data-protected/can-my-employer-require-me-give-my-consent-use-my-personal-data_en https://commission.europa.eu/law/law-topic/data-protection/r...
  • raphman 3y ago
    At least the German ToS (updated April 10) do not contain any AI provisions. https://explore.zoom.us/de/privacy/ https://explore.zoom.us/de/privacy/
• gorbachev 3y ago
  What's the exact change? What did the relevant section(s) contain before?
• galleywest200 3y ago
  One of my doctors uses Zoom for tele-health appointments... How is this not a violation of HIPAA?
  • icco 3y ago
    I am not a lawyer, but https://explore.zoom.us/docs/doc/Zoom-hipaa.pdf https://explore.zoom.us/docs/doc/Zoom-hipaa.pdf reads like as long as they don't disclose your information, they aren't in violation.
    • ratg13 3y ago
      If they generate an AI model based on your data and allow anyone else to use that model, you should assume that the user will also be able to query data about you. So really it all hinges on if the AI is only used in house, or if it is accessible by the general public.
  • _throwaway123 3y ago
    While I am not an expert in the details, this seems aligned with HIPAA to me at a high level in the following sense. While HIPAA got marketed as protecting medical data (privacy), it really was intended make medical data shareable (portability). Think of it like a trojan horse: get this in with that. Or, a misdirection: look over here, while some other thing happens. Therefore, automatic Zoom transcripts of tele-health appointments are remarkably well-aligned with the intent of HIPAA. Think how much more sharable and more complete digital medical records can be now. (And the breakthroughs that may come of it! Etc., etc.) To wit, "As much as there's a law, HIPAA supposed to prevent people from revealing your medical data, suppose to be protected, which is completely false. 20% of the population works in health care. That 20% of pop can see the med data. the med data you are not ware of is being sent to insurance companies, forwarded to government health info exchanges...." - Rob Braxman Tech, "Live - Rant! Why I am able to give you this privacy information, + Q&A", https://youtube.com/watch?v=ba6wI1BHG9A https://youtube.com/watch?v=ba6wI1BHG9A
  • MaxBarraclough 3y ago
    Perhaps slightly off-topic: the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) seem to be paying particular attention to security/privacy as it relates to providers of medical services using online tracking services. In a recent open letter they mentioned Meta/Facebook and Google Analytics by name. I imagine communication services like Zoom are also on their minds. * https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2023/07/ftc-hhs-warn-hospital-systems-telehealth-providers-about-privacy-security-risks-online-tracking https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2023/07/... * https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/blog/2023/07/ftc-hhs-joint-letter-gets-heart-risks-tracking-technologies-pose-personal-health-information https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/blog/2023/07/ftc-hhs-j...
• amelius 3y ago
  At this point I feel that EULAs should contain clear warning signs.
• amelius 3y ago
  Will this fly in the EU?
• serial_dev 3y ago
  I miss the good old days when "if you are not paying for the product, you are the product" meant I need to watch some ads on a free website. Now, even if you pay for the product, you're still the product, and every company will try to get you to train their AI.
  • evandale 3y ago
    That is why I'm back to torrenting. Cheaper and no ads just like the old days when I cut the cable cord. I'll admit I have a horrible setup and binge watching 12 random episodes of a new show in one day is a huge pain in the ass but I've decided that's a good thing!
    • capableweb 3y ago
      It'd be amazing if I could torrent my co-workers so I could skip all those pesky ads they keep doing when we're sitting in remote meetings.
      • evandale 3y ago
        I'm sorry for making completely off-topic comments. I'll try to refrain from doing that in the future.
      • saurik 3y ago
        It sounds like that might be Zoom's plan?
        • deleted 3y ago
          [deleted]
    • zxexz 3y ago
      Unfortunately that doesn’t work for things like meetings!
      • evandale 3y ago
• jimmaswell 3y ago
  Maybe this can be our magic bullet to save free content after we killed ads: train AI on user input/behavior (at least for a brief period of time until the EU throws another fit and California follows suit). Perfectly fair tradeoff to me - it should be fair use for AI to train on anything at all in my view, same as it's fair use for a human to look at something and learn abstract lessons from it.
  • lewhoo 3y ago
    Oh not the "like a human" again. But would you really allow any human on every zoom call ? I think this is a good example where this analogy breaks pretty obviously.
    • jimmaswell 3y ago
      It's the best of both worlds because an AI isn't a human - an AI learning from your private conversation is like letting a cat watch you go to the bathroom.
      • lewhoo 3y ago
        Now tell me with a straight face it doesn't feel a bit awkward to let your pet follow you to the bathroom. But on a more serious note, if the cat could convey messages of what he had heard, bits and peaces but also whole chunks it would've been a better analogy I think.
• pologreen1978 3y ago
  [dead]
• jamesgill 3y ago
  It seems to me that every ‘AI’ effort I see today utterly depends on circumventing or ignoring privacy.
  • CatWChainsaw 3y ago
    This is baked into the current design. How else would it be fed large amounts of data if every individual made an informed choice?
  • barbariangrunge 3y ago
    And the copyright of individuals
  • icco 3y ago
    Definitely, but so does every advertising play. While AI companies are more egregious, this isn't anything new.
    • TheRealPomax 3y ago
      That seems an intentionally blind take on the matter. That's like saying that because you've seen a kid shoplift a pack of gum at a gas station, an organized crime outfit stealing entire ATMs from every gas station in a 200 mile radius isn't anything new. Scale matters.
  • TheRealPomax 3y ago
    I like the part where the reason the US keeps allowing it is that "if we don't, China will", as if China has access to the same flood of data that US FAANG companies and contenders like Zoom have access to every second of every day. Sure, at the government level it has access to the same data as everyone else, but that firewall's still there, can't have an AI trained on data that might give a more worldly view on matters the party doesn't want citizens exposed to. A Chinese AI will be pretty useless for western audiences, so best they can do is make the hardware. Which they already do.
    • duccinator 3y ago
• DrZootron 3y ago
  Great, what could possibly go wro.. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37013704 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37013704
• deusexml 3y ago
  I guess the equivalent terms for Google Meet are much more privacy friendly: > Control over your data > ... > Google does not store video, audio, or chat data unless a meeting participant initiates a recording during the Meet session. https://support.google.com/meet/answer/9852160 https://support.google.com/meet/answer/9852160 Though, I suppose this isn't exactly the same as a TOS.
  • LinuxBender 3y ago
    Out of curiosity based on recent discussions and debates about AI and copyright, would it be considered storing if AI processes the information first and then stores the derivative works?
    • ant6n 3y ago
      Like some sort of real time training, then throwing away the inout?
      • LinuxBender 3y ago
        Maybe? I don't know what is actually feasible at scale in this theoretical scenario. If these things were being performed at the behest of the intelligence community then costs could be offset by generic named grants.
• buildbuildbuild 3y ago
  How to enable end to end encryption in Zoom: https://support.zoom.us/hc/en-us/articles/360048660871-End-to-end-E2EE-encryption-for-meetings https://support.zoom.us/hc/en-us/articles/360048660871-End-t... (Presuming of course that their closed source software really E2E encrypts without a backdoor)
  • gumballindie 3y ago
    Why not simply use a product that doesnt steal your meeting content?
    • Jerrrry 3y ago
      [flagged]
      • seneca 3y ago
        > Why not simply not comment? Please don't post attacks like this here.
        • Jerrrry 3y ago
          It was a question, similar to the exact tort posted. Please don't post self-righteous dismissive comments here.
          • mrd3v0 3y ago
            I am sorry but it is not "self-righteous", it is in the guidelines you agree to when you sign up here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
            • Jerrrry 3y ago
              May want to review those guidelines; and look up the definition of "self-righteous," while on a literacy streak. >Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something. My comment was just as genuine as his, but wasn't dismissive, as his was. It also assumed good faith, which is ironic given his comment was a rhetorical dismissal. I legitimately pointed out that he was on the wrong website; dismissive "why are yall even X why you should Y" is a hallmark of Stackoverflow. Similarly, reddit-eqsue circle jerk musk-bad/trump-bad comments get a similar reminder that this isn't reddit.
• ANarrativeApe 3y ago
  This would appear to be a material change to the terms and conditions. What recourse do paying subscribers have in terms on cancellation and refunds?
• chriscappuccio 3y ago
  PRC instructing a Zoom employee to place child pornography on Chinese dissidents should have been enough to stop companies from using Zoom https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/china-based-executive-us-telecommunications-company-charged-disrupting-video-meetings https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/china-based-executive-us-tele...
• hammock 3y ago
  I like how everyone is up in arms over the use of your meetings for AI training specifically, when the ToS clearly says all "Customer Content/Customer Input" AKA your words, text, voice, face, etc can be used for "Product and Services Development" which could as easily be a facial recognition database, a corporate espionage service, a direct competitor to whatever company you work for, or literally anything else before it's an AI.
• likenesstheft 3y ago
  [dead]
• throwawaycr4zy 3y ago
  There is an opt out -- don't use Zoom.
• ant6n 3y ago
  So uh, we’ll switch to MS Teams?
• blindriver 3y ago
  I hope this goes viral and Zoom dies a quick death. They went too far with this and I hope they suffer the consequences.
  • WhereIsTheTruth 3y ago
    Where were you when Microsoft trained their models on everyone's github repo without their consent? Where were you when Microsoft announced the exact same for Teams? https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-365/blog/2022/06/13/how-microsoft-teams-uses-ai-and-machine-learning-to-improve-calls-and-meetings/ https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-365/blog/2022/06/1... By allowing Microsoft do as they please, we collectively gave up our rights for privacy, we deserve what's happening I chose to not use their products at all, it starts from there if you care
• gumballindie 3y ago
  I see, Industrial Espionage is now the norm. The telephone company, in this case zoom, will simply automate it and resell it on the open market. Also what’s so cool about zoom? I used it once and it was utter crap. Was its popularity largely due to cargo culting novelty or did i genuinely miss something?
  • switch007 3y ago
    It became rather popular during the COVID pandemic. It entered the lexicon as a synonym for online video meetings.
• dylan604 3y ago
  Wouldn't it be easier to just have a banner "all your meetings are belong to us"?
  • an1sotropy 3y ago
    For great productivity
• Sunspark 3y ago
  You want to see a Zoom client that is utter broken trash? Look at the Linux flatpak. The scaling is completely broken, buttons are covered up, changing the size of the window results in bleed-through from underneath in parts but not others. Once a call is started if you maximize the window it will cut the other side's video in half. I am not a regular user of Zoom at all but I did install the flatpak to check it out. I am not impressed. A company as big as this and they couldn't scrape up the resources to find a developer to make a working client? PATHETIC! It looks like it was done as a highschool project by the gifted nephew of the CEO for their computer class and then rolled out to the world so that all may benefit from the genius of the nephew.
  • baz00 3y ago
    Have you tried using a desktop OS that vendors give a crap about? (Yeah I know how that sounds but it's true)
    • notpushkin 3y ago
      Yeah well thanks, but I'll probably just use a product whose vendor gives a crap about Linux.
    • Sunspark 3y ago
      Windows is my main OS. If I have to use Zoom, I will use it in the web interface only.. I won't install the app. Reason is because I don't trust that the app is not riddled with CCP backdoors.
  • r4indeer 3y ago
    The Flatpak wrapper for Zoom is not made or endorsed by Zoom, Inc. as indicated in its description [1]. I am definitely not a fan of Zoom either and had my own issues with the Linux client, but if the problems you describe are unique to the Flatpak and not in the official Linux distribution, you can't blame Zoom for that. [1] https://flathub.org/apps/us.zoom.Zoom https://flathub.org/apps/us.zoom.Zoom
    • 3y ago
• everyone 3y ago
  Why did Zoom explode in popularity anyway? When there were already plenty of video chat programs on the market that seemed to be doing fine?
• indus 3y ago
  I think we needed a user specific robots.txt - here’s my website, take whatever you want - here’s my photo repository, attribute me - here’s my zoom, anonymize me
• karaterobot 3y ago
  I thought Zoom meetings were end-to-end encrypted. I checked my settings, and it's turned on. Does this right I am hereby granting them supercede my prior choice?
• whiddershins 3y ago
  Wait has the entire developed world been feeding a real-time transcription of every important decision made at every company direct to the CCP for the past 3+ years.
• seesawtron 3y ago
  Is it only the update in US or world wide?
• grogenaut 3y ago
  While I dislike the tos change and don't use zoom u understand why there doing it. How else can they train a closed caption system like everyone else has? They need data for it. Transcripts are becoming a killer feature for me for meetings. I can understand why my dad couldn't type now, he had a secretary to transcribe everything. It's super efficient. I just pull jr devs or product into a meeting now turn on transcribe and we just talk through a problem. No one has to take notes we just talk and diagram. I started turning it on in war rooms as well. Every 30 minutes I stop the transcript and start a new one. A few minutes later I can share out the previous minutes to managers so they can get a detailed progress update. Better than typing really detailed things into slack, and better than an audio recording. Edit: some people pointed out that whisper would do a good job with transcription but there's other things like tweaking the model which is essentially training it and there is things like building their own summarization systems that may be bespoke by customer. At my work we use some AI that answers HR and other types of questions that are kind of trained on our company specific questions and it actually does a great job but that does mean that we have to allow our data to be used for AI training. We're also using this system to do first tier tech support and some of our developer channels for very common questions and it works great because it finds those common questions and gets an answer before a human's even able to pay attention. Both of those approaches could be enabled by these terms of service changes
  • Dwedit 3y ago
    Can they just use the open source Whisper model?
  • nwoli 3y ago
    Just use whisper or any other open source speech to text system. They don’t need to built their own version
  • catlifeonmars 3y ago
    > How else can they train a closed caption system like everyone else has? They need data for it. This is where zero knowledge federated learning comes in. Unfortunately, this is very much a tomorrow technology (it needs the infrastructure to support it). Why invest in privacy-preserving methods for training machine learning models tomorrow when you can steal users private information today (or even better, bully them into doing so by being the defacto VC that everyone needs to use because of network effects).
• imiric 3y ago
  This is very much like the Black Mirror episode Joan Is Awful. By using modern services we consent to our data, including our likeness, being used in any way the service can extract value from it. User data is such a gold mine that most services should be paying their users instead. Even giving the service away for "free" doesn't come close to making this a fair exchange. Not to sound pessimistic, but we are already living in a dystopia, and it will only get much, much worse. Governments are way behind in regulating Big Tech, which in most cases they have no desire in since they're in a symbiotic relationship. It's FUBAR.
  • yosito 3y ago
    Balaji talks a lot about the state losing power in the future, but I don't think this is how he was envisioning it.
    • wwweston 3y ago
      As far as I can tell he's not only pretty sure he'll be part of the class that holds power like this without accountability to any state, he consistently makes manipulative statements which function to move things in that direction.
  • cade 3y ago
    Enjoyed the Black Mirror reference, and will hopefully add to the pop culture enjoyable cross linking with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HumancentiPad https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HumancentiPad. > WHY WON’T IT READ?!
• CodeWriter23 3y ago
  Canceled that.
• yosito 3y ago
  And unfortunately my company uses Zoom with no opt out other than leaving my job. :-/
  • switch007 3y ago
    Tech workers don’t need unions though /s
• Pixie_Dust 3y ago
  “You agree to grant and hereby grant Zoom a perpetual, worldwide, non-exclusive, royalty-free, sublicensable, and transferable license and all other rights required or necessary to redistribute, publish, import, access, use, store, transmit, review, disclose, preserve, extract, modify, reproduce, share, use, display, copy, distribute, translate, transcribe, create derivative works, and process Customer Content and to perform all acts with respect to the Customer Content: (i) as may be necessary for Zoom to provide the Services to you, including to support the Services; (ii) for the purpose of product and service development, marketing, analytics, quality assurance, machine learning, artificial intelligence .. .. If you have any Proprietary Rights in or to Service Generated Data or Aggregated Anonymous Data, you hereby grant Zoom a perpetual, irrevocable, worldwide, non-exclusive, royalty-free, sublicensable, and transferable license and all other rights ..”
• zakember 3y ago
  This is not new. These terms were quietly updated on 1st April 2023. Looks like very few people noticed it until now. https://web.archive.org/web/20230401045359/https://explore.zoom.us/en/terms/ https://web.archive.org/web/20230401045359/https://explore.z...
  • s5ma6n 3y ago
    I am really puzzled how are they able to "quietly" update the terms without notifying their users? Everybody was joking about the emails (We have updated our terms...) raining from every company when GDPR et al. got introduced. What changed?
    • AlecSchueler 3y ago
      I thought those emails were a form of protest, like complying in the most annoying way possible just to make a point.
    • esperent 3y ago
      Possibly they've done something illegal here. Let's wait and see (or, if you're in the EU, take action and report it to your data protection authority and NOYB).
    • greyface- 3y ago
      Section 15 of the agreement ("MODIFICATIONS TO THIS AGREEMENT") allows for Zoom to unilaterally change the terms without providing notice other than updating them on the website.
      • nicce 3y ago
        In many countries that is illegal... ToS does not go over the local laws.
        • greyface- 3y ago
          In such jurisdictions, it would be unenforceable, but not illegal. The agreement is executed in California per section 33.3, where it is perfectly legal.
• I_am_tiberius 3y ago
  I just recently got a response from chatGPT that made me speechless. I have a very specific function in my code, with a very specific name. Just some days ago I asked it to produce a function with similar functionality. It used that function's name. I couldn't believe it. I even have disabled chat history & training so I'm not sure if that was an incredibly big coincidence or they really re-used my data.
• fieldbob 3y ago
  This also probably mean that they are going to tap/secretly record every video call and analyze the data without recording being turned on. Since all video calls terminate at a zoom server they already have the capability to listen in without anyone knowing about it.
• nphase 3y ago
  I am not a lawyer, but I believe that without consent, this may actually be illegal in the state of Illinois.
• _cenw 3y ago
  Hollywood should've just gotten actors to use Zoom for a few weeks worth of meetings, so they can buy the perpetual likeness of their voice and faces. This is way too broad and especially the sublicense clause is going to make me reject meeting requests that contain a Zoom link from now on.
• yread 3y ago
  When did this change happen? I saw a notification in March was this already included?
• golemotron 3y ago
  Are there any AI tools that give an assurance that they do not persist data (or its derivatives) from a session beyond the session?
• operatingthetan 3y ago
  Given confidentiality requirements I can see this causing a lot of clients to drop.
• ignoramous 3y ago
  This is just the begining. Previously, only a handful companies like Google truly knew how to make AI tick with all the data they could gobble up. In the not so distant future, many tech companies will want to build out such capabilities. I wouldn't be surprised if this "AI clause" is a staple in ToS going forward. Brace for Meta to call it in for Instagram and WhatsApp, if they haven't already (WhatsApp, in particular).
• danShumway 3y ago
  Tangentially related, but a number of telehealth operations with hospitals/therapists/etc... use Zoom -- I suspect because their clients can connect without an app or an account over a browser. When you join a Zoom session over the browser, you don't sign a TOS. And I assume that actual licensed medical establishments are under their own TOS provisions that are compatible with HIPPA requirements. Training on voice-to-text transcription, etc... would be a pretty huge privacy violation particularly in the scope of services like therapy. Both because there are demonstrable attacks on AIs to get training data out of them, and because presumably that data would then be accessible to employees/contractors who were validating that it was fit for training. Out of curiosity, has anyone using telehealth checked with their doctor/therapist to see what Zoom's privacy policies are for them?
  • johndhi 3y ago
    Looks like they have a separate offering, Zoom for Healthcare that presumably has different terms and conditions. https://blog.zoom.us/answering-questions-about-zoom-healthcare/ https://blog.zoom.us/answering-questions-about-zoom-healthca...
    • NeverFade 3y ago
      What if you discuss sensitive health-related details with someone other than your doctor, for example your attorney? The privacy issues here are bottomless, and so are the legal issues.
      • johndhi 3y ago
        The law doesn't protect it. HIPAA doesn't apply in that setting. Attorney client privilege is an interesting case. "Privacy issues" is a meaningless phrase to me when divorced from the law. Do you mean, like, ethically concerning? This term in the contract is neither uncommon nor illegal.
  • whatatita 3y ago
    I know that many smaller therapists use Zoom for exactly the reasons you mentioned above - ease of use. They often don't have the technical know-how to assess the technology they're using. The UK, for example, has hundreds of private mental health practitioners (therapists, psychologists, etc.) that provice their services directly to clients. They almost universally use off-the-shelf technology for video calling, messaging, and reporting.
• enjeyw 3y ago
  I’m not an expert here but it seems to me that this should force every single healthcare org in the US off Zoom, since having patient health data leaked in this way violates HIPPA?
  • janejeon 3y ago
    Unless you specifically enable E2E in meetings (which is NOT the default), it does seem like it?
• johndhi 3y ago
  Curious for users here: why does using your content to train AI bother you? How is it any more scary than using it to advertise to you for example.
  • ggoo 3y ago
    IMO, it's less about AI and more the complete lack of any regard for user privacy.
  • IsTom 3y ago
    All and any personal information that is used for training might get reproduced later. I am not excited about somebody else asking AI personal questions about me.
    • johndhi 3y ago
      So it's a fear for generative AI specifically. Because there are other AI training examples without this concern present.
      • IsTom 3y ago
        In my case mostly yes, though you have to be careful with classifiers too as you can pull out a lot of things with just yes/no answers.
• techas 3y ago
  Is this for free account? Or also for paid corporate accounts?
• Jeff_Brown 3y ago
  Is there any service that doesn't do this?
• zmmmmm 3y ago
  This seems a subtle shift in general with AI is people feel entitled to treat it as an end in itself or a black box. The agreement says they can use "User Content" for: > the purpose of product and service development, marketing, analytics, quality assurance, machine learning, artificial intelligence, training, testing, improvement of the Services, Software So notice most of these are somehow qualified to the service they are providing you, but the AI part stands alone. If it was to improve the service to me, that would be pretty reasonable, but here it says they can use it for AI as an end unto itself. Something about the inscrutability of modern AI (nobody knows how it really works, what the limits of its capabilities are etc.) seems to lend itself to this kind of open ended vagueness. If they just wrote "we can use your user generated content for anything we like" it would almost amount to the same thing but people would be outraged. But when they say "it's for AI" everyone nods their head as if it's somehow different to that.
• cobychapple 3y ago
  Interesting when taken together with things like the story from the other day about emerging AI/ML-based acoustic keystroke attacks against, which mentioned being trainable via Zoom calls: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37013704 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37013704 / https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/new-acoustic-attack-steals-data-from-keystrokes-with-95-percent-accuracy/ https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/new-acoustic-...
• ericksoa 3y ago
  Question: unless you are an anti-AI advocate, why does this matter? Why are we raising pitchforks over this? We routinely sign terms that allow product managers to analyze how we use a product and even use data for aggregation of trends. Yes, an opt out would be nice, but what bad outcome for anyone personally comes of this?
• mensetmanusman 3y ago
  https://cyberscoop.com/zoom-china-doj-eric-yuan/ https://cyberscoop.com/zoom-china-doj-eric-yuan/ Their executives love money as much as Apple so they comply to crush wrongthink about how amazing the CCP is.
• iamnotsure 3y ago
  Zoom and others may be a major source of chaos due to mirror swapping and recording video streams.
• aparnabzoom 3y ago
  Hi there - this is Aparna from Zoom, our Chief Operating Officer. Thank you for your care and concern for our customers - we are grateful for the opportunity to double click on how we treat customer content. To clarify, Zoom customers decide whether to enable generative AI features (recently launched on a free trial basis) and separately whether to share customer content with Zoom for product improvement purposes. Also, Zoom participants receive an in-meeting notice or a Chat Compose pop-up when these features are enabled through our UI, and they will definitely know their data may be used for product improvement purposes.
  • 23B1 3y ago
    Thanks for your response, but as you can see in the comments even HN users are confused about this. Where can we find the ability to 'switch off' any sort of generative AI features or data harvesting? I ask because the zoom administrative interface is an absolute nightmare that feels more like a bunch of darkpatterns than usable UX. When I asked your customer support team – on this occasion and others – they clearly don't even read the request, let alone provide a sufficient response. I've been going back-and-forth on a related issue with your CSRs for almost two months; they've neither escalated nor solved my problem. The bottom line is that as a paying customer, you're incentivizing me and others to move to different services – namely because you seem to be entangled by your own bureaucracy and lack of values than any outside problem.
  • j45 3y ago
    One of the major faults of Zoom possibly from the rate of change in it is how many features are buried in the web configuration that are not in the physical application. Seamless integration and access between the two is not where it should be.
  • oltre 3y ago
    Answer unsatisfactory. With the recent T&C update, Zoom committed (business) suicide. A memorable fail story to avoid. Goodbye forever, Zoom.
  • tailspin2019 3y ago
    When you say “Zoom customers decide … whether to share customer content with Zoom”… Can you elaborate on whether this is opt-out or opt-in? Does a new user who starts to use Zoom today have this turned on by default? Usually when companies say things like “customers decide” it can gloss over a lot of detail like hidden settings that default to “on” or other potentially misleading / dark patterns. Given the obvious interest in the finite details being discussed in this thread, and your legal background, it would be good to hear a bit more of a comprehensive response if you can provide it.
• onlypositive 3y ago
  Account deleted, see ya later.
• nemoniac 3y ago
  Can anyone point to a short overview of the various online video meeting platforms and their terms regarding AI training, eavesdropping for QC or otherwise and claims of E2E encryption?
• voice-clown 3y ago
  As my old granny used to say, “If in doubt, keep it out”. (She meant your nose from other people’s business). But it’s good advice when considering which software to allow on your computer and in your life. Personally, I’d avoid using ANY software whose Terms I don’t fully trust.
• aparnabzoom 3y ago
  [flagged]
  • deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  • _moof 3y ago
    You don't today, but your terms of service say that you can, and that's unacceptable.
• tupriq 3y ago
  [dead]
• dtaht 3y ago
  I use self hosted galene.org. It is FOSS & in go. Takes 10 minutes to setup. Is missing a few features.
• brunes 3y ago
  It is depressing how few people seem to be able to read or understand basic legal text nowadays. Service Generated Data is *very clearly defined* to not include user generated data. Service Genrated Data would include data like APM, error logs, aggregate stats around how many customers use features. None of this data us PII. It is depressing how many CISOs and others reposted this drivel.