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They also have too much stuff in them. I want a "dumb" but well-built electric car... No side mirror lights, no motorized trunks, no suite of cabin sensors try
by brucethemoose2 3y ago
They also have too much stuff in them.
I want a "dumb" but well-built electric car... No side mirror lights, no motorized trunks, no suite of cabin sensors trying to figure out what I want, no air conditioned seats, and definitely no elaborate, janky, hilariously expensive infotainment system. Just put that engineering into the suspension and steering, please.
I want a tablet mount and good A/C. Maybe power windows and nice speakers. And I will take the 900lbs and $10k+ that shaves off, thank you.
- Simorgh 3y agoI think it’s part of a wider trend in tech towards shipping features without due regard to the efficacy / performance of the product.
- jackmott42 3y agoEveryone can make a good car now, they are a commodity now. So to differentiate in the market you turn to nonsense (pointless features you can talk about) and obfuscation (confusing pricing and options and fees, ala airlines)
- hotpotamus 3y agoI'd say warranty is the feature I'm most interested in.
- flagrant_taco 3y agoI'd much rather have a reliably car than a solid warranty. If fewer creature comforts get me there then count me in.
- davidthewatson 3y agoThat's right... commodity fetishism manufacturing consent: https://www.alexanderrea.com/project/mcdonalds-happy-world/ https://www.alexanderrea.com/project/mcdonalds-happy-world/ Because what could be more fun than praying for autonomy at speed in a self-driving car while ordering a happy meal? I'm happy they stopped at the concept. Given the lack of regulation, I'm surprised we don't have drones dropping happy meals through moon-roofs in traffic like turkeys-via-chopper on WKRP in Cincinnati.
- def_true_false 3y agoDoes the word 'good' have a different meaning in the US? Your car manufacturers barely manage to compete in the segment protected by the chicken tax tariff... Some do a decent job in luxury EVs.
- bmitc 3y agoIt also points out the fallacy and lie of electric car companies caring about the environment. They don't. It's just the new thing to sell. Just like every company known to man is parroting sustainability now.
- SamBam 3y agoSure, but it doesn't matter whether they actually "care" about the environment, or just about selling cars, an electric car is still better for the environment. Now, if you keep buying new cars to keep up with the latest features, that's a problem.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- anonymouskimmer 3y ago> Now, if you keep buying new cars to keep up with the latest features, that's a problem. It depends on what happens to your old cars (and they're mileage ratings). Many people are driving more inefficient cars and would upgrade if affordable used cars were available. The market can absorb more than a few yearly upgraders, though of course after a point it is a waste.
- anonymouskimmer 3y agough. their instead of they're.
- eddythompson80 3y agoThis is becoming so widespread, it’s no longer just a byproduct of how a project or a product is managed. It’s an explicit guidance that is explicitly stated in the form of “No feature should take more than 1-2 months. 3 months feature work is the longest term we should plan and consider. Everything we work on from planning to design to implementation to deployment needs to be in the hand of a customer at most in 2-3 months max” I even had this hilarious conversation with my manager once. I asked: “You know how broken this feature is, right? Like if you even deviate from the simple announcement example in any way, you’ll probably be broken in a completely unknown way. We’re providing an ‘alternative’ that only implements a 1/10 of the scenarios but nonetheless exposes the same interface to users” He said: “yeah, that’s fine. The most important thing is to deliver something for users to use. To even know if anyone wants this at all or if no one will use it” I perplexedly asked: “but how would you know if people are not using it because they don’t want it, or if they are using it because they try and it’s hopelessly broken?” He said: “We’ll fix it. If they are not using it because it rough or broken, then we’ll fix it. We will wait for feedback about what’s broken and fix the problem they run into. If people want to use something and they find issues, they’ll just report it.” I said: “… do you do that? You try a feature in a new product or a tool or a feature, and when it doesn’t work at all, do you start file feedback items and work with that company to make sure their feature work? I know i don’t. I just move on until they fix it or find a competitor who has a better alternative” He said: “no, most people will report problems and we can fix them as they come. Also we should tell from telemetry what people are trying and what’s not working and what we should fix vs not” I said: “yeah, that makes sense.“, knowing that our telemetry is also generally broken because it’s implemented in the same way and generally we do the work when business folks come back asking for some data or complaining how the data we provide doesn’t add up. Oh fun times.
- ImPostingOnHN 3y agothis sounds like a conversation wherein someone learns about lean startup / agile methodologies for the first time (build an MVP and get it in front of people ASAP to get feedback, don't perfect it first)
- 3y ago
- xnx 3y ago> no air conditioned seats ... and good A/C Which is it? Directly cooling/heating the body through the seat seems like the fastest and most efficient way.
- TaylorAlexander 3y agoYou can buy a 2011 Nissan Leaf that has had a 2018 Nissan Leaf battery pack installed, giving it 200+ miles of range, for like $15k. I want something like that!
- brucethemoose2 3y agoOr better yet, shoehorn a Kawasaki Ninja engine into the back: https://youtu.be/PVlMxQaAf-k https://youtu.be/PVlMxQaAf-k
- gravitronic 3y agoEvery Nissan I've driven in the last ten years had had terrible UI as well - more buttons switches and hat controls than my simulator flight stick
- irjustin 3y agoBut isn't that what the grand parent is asking for?
- gravitronic 3y agoThey were physical controls but there was SO many of them and they all felt very cheap that it was its own sense of crappy cheap and likely to break UI.
- tmountain 3y agoWhere do you find one?
- TaylorAlexander 3y agoI did a quick search, here is one such company. https://evridesllc.com/ https://evridesllc.com/
- jackmott42 3y agoPower windows are cheaper to manufacture now, oddly. So that is what we will get!
- Tagbert 3y agoI remember old crank windows breaking all the time. I'd take a modern, convenient and more reliable electric window any day.
- xwdv 3y agoWe can do all that except the $10k off. This is very niche vehicle, enthusiast driven. So extra $10k.
- smeej 3y agoHonestly, at this point, if that were all it would cost extra, I'd pay it.
- bagacrap 3y agoMy 2020 leaf is this.
- Panoramix 3y agoAnd then there's a shortage because of all the chips that are needed to enable these garbage features.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago> And I will take the 900lbs and $10k+ that shaves off, thank you. Going from digital to analog control is more likely to add weight and cost, so you aren't going to save in that regard. Specifically going back from the infotainment system to an old fashioned analog control panel would likely add more cost and weight than it saves.
- voisin 3y agoI think OP is referring not to going digital to analog but going from feature rich to feature lite.
- seanmcdirmid 3y agoThat's fine, but it isn't going to happen by going back in time, rather they take a modern all digital design and just take features away. So your dash is going to still be digital, not because it is fancy, but because it is economical. You would wind up with something like: https://carnewschina.com/2017/08/08/meet-gms-cheapest-electric-car-new-baojun-e100-china/ https://carnewschina.com/2017/08/08/meet-gms-cheapest-electr...
- flagrant_taco 3y agoIf the concern is lifetime ownership cost, repairs need to factor in as well. More analog parts, fewer features, and individual parts rather than monolithic control systems all can make a big difference in repairability.
- seanmcdirmid 3y agoYou have to run more wires, more points of failure, more things to wear out. It is heavier, more expensive to produce, but ya, you can repair individual parts maybe without replacing the entire head unit.
- throwawaylinux 3y agoAll that cheap garbage does not weigh 900lbs or cost $10k, and they'd probably call it race trim and charge you more for it.
- tnel77 3y agoCan I get a normal looking car that doesn’t look like a toe? Thank you!
- oblio 3y agoThat ship has sailed. Tight emissions regulations (at least in Europe) plus EV range anxiety mean that cars have to be water droplet shaped.
- eddythompson80 3y agoExactly. It’s just simple laws of aerodynamics unfortunately. People might demand non-droplet shaped cars, and some might even buy some. But the majority will look at the significant drop in mileage, or regulators might look at pedestrian safety or range and penalize it in general. Then some of those same people would say something like “beautiful car, love the looks, but not willing to take the range difference. Fix that and we can talk” as if it’s a menu you can pick and choose from.
- hef19898 3y agoAlso pedestrian and cyclist safety on top of crash saftey requirements. There still are some designs that are different. They just don't sell as well as the mainstream stuff.
- tnel77 3y agoAre the aerodynamics of a Model 3 that much better than something like a Toyota Camry?
- dingaling 3y agoModern cars are universally the opposite of the optimum subsonic shape, which is a hemispherical leading section tapering into a cone. The 1914 Alfa Aerodinamica by Castagna was closer to the optimum than anything from 2023. Even engineless EVs persist with a long bonnet.
- oblio 3y ago
- Solvency 3y agoThis is why I salivate over Icon4x4 vintage car rebuilds. Check any video the owner posts on YouTube. All of the tech is state of the art analog stuff. It's the definition of "dumb and absolutely perfectly crafted."
- qbasic_forever 3y agoMake sure you really want to drive and live with an old design before dropping tons of money on a restoration. Driving a leaf spring suspension all solid axles and body on frame truck is wayyyy different than modern independent suspension unibody frame trucks. You might not remember it but back in the heyday of those old trucks people were flipping and rolling them on the freeway all the time--there are conditions and speeds that they just plain are not safe to drive, and a lot of that comes from their inherent design which Icon can't fix.
- mb7733 3y agoAs far as I know all modern full-size pickup trucks are still frame-on-body, and most have solid rear axles. (In the mid/small size there's some unibody options like the Honda Ridgeline but that's nothing new. It's just a different type of vehicle, not something that's obsoleted a traditional truck.)
- qbasic_forever 3y agoElectronic limited slip diffs, ABS and wheelspin sensors with traction control, etc. go a loooong way to making modern stuff more drivable. There's no comparison to an old 80s truck with none of that stuff (and way less crash safety).
- twothamendment 3y agoMy 2014 truck has solid axels and body on frame, but the suspension is a million times better than the 70's International truck I was in when I hit my head on the ceiling as it went over a speed bump at a reasonable speed. Coils on all four corners and I'm sure some better engineering helps quite a bit.
- thatfrenchguy 3y ago> And I will take the 900lbs and $10k+ that shaves off, thank you. You are way off
- arwhatever 3y agoYeah just mirror the screen and audio directly from my phone.
- kansface 3y agoA surprising amount of junk is mandated by law.
- CSMastermind 3y agoThings mandated by law in the US: horns, engine hoods, windshield wipers, mirrors, airbags, tire pressure monitors, backup cameras, seat belts, bumpers, anti-lock brakes, automatic emergency braking, electronic stability control, LATCH systems, mufflers/emission control systems, headlights, tail lights, stop lights, and turn signals. Additionally air intakes may not be more than 4 inches in height, steering wheels must be circular and at least 13 inches in diameter, and tires must not discharge materials towards the rear of the vehicle. That covers most of it.
- eddythompson80 3y agoJunk I tell yea. I live in Death Valley, CA why are you mandating me to have windshield wipers? Also I’m a very good driver why do I need ABS or automatic emergency breaking? I only text and drive when there is no one on the road.
- robotresearcher 3y agoSome of the junk is from lessons learned the hard way. For example, backup cameras dramatically reduce the chance of you running over your own children in your driveway. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Chesterton%27s_fence https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Chesterton%27s_fence
- argonaut 3y agoAn infotainment is practically a legal requirement, since backup cameras are mandated by law in the USA. Since you already need a screen and a computer, you might as well add some more functionality.
- slumberlust 3y agoThat's cool, but can you power it with something larger than a TI-83 please?
- AlotOfReading 3y agoManufacturers are dependent on automotive qualified parts to be available. For reference, a moderate to high end solution might use the Arm a53 cores from 2012, with an A72 if you're lucky. Usually even that gets pushback from beancounters and the fallback will be some chip from TI that makes the z80 in their calculators look almost modern. Couple this with software that has had 0 time allocated to optimization and you can see the issue. A lot of manufacturers are exploring custom silicon instead, because that's a great way to avoid spending money.
- smeej 3y agoMy '07 Prius has a backup can, but there's no entertainment in its "infotainment" screen unless you count radio preset buttons. I don't need to be entertained while I drive. I need to drive while I drive.
- mock-possum 3y agoIt’s how I feel about my TV too - god I hate smart tvs. All I want is a dumb display I can hook a media pc up to. I can make that setup do literally anything I want.
- lotsofpulp 3y agoAny TV with HDMI CEC should work, no? Just like how I connect an Apple TV and never deal with the TV interface.
- tguvot 3y agoHDMI CEC is too complex. SCART all the way
- bushbaba 3y agoThe original Nissan leaf but with a 300 mile range would be perfect.
- bourneavent 3y agoThe problem is you end up paying More for what you want because what you want doesn't align with everyone else. These cars are massed produced, so anything deviating from the popular norm ends up becoming custom and costing more, even if the custom design is less complex then the popular design. Given that everyone else wants those bells and whistles, ironically you get more by paying less which means logically more bells and whistles is the better deal. A logical person would in turn want the cars with "too much stuff". That is unless you're willing to pay more for less stuff.
- lamontcg 3y ago> Given that everyone else wants those bells and whistles I'd argue that almost nobody else wants all those bells and whistles, but most people want a couple of them. So you wind up with all of them, because people will walk away from a vehicle that doesn't have what they want more than walk away from a vehicle that has too many things they don't.
- shepherdjerred 3y agoI like/use all of the features that the parent listed. There are _some_ dumb features, on my car, but most of them I quite like and are a large part of why I bought my car and not a cheaper model/trim.
- vel0city 3y agoAlmost nobody wants power windows?
- voidfunc 3y agoThe car you want exists basically, it's called a Mazda3.
- robotresearcher 3y ago> I want a "dumb" but well-built electric car Mazda 3 is great, but it's ICE.
- voidfunc 3y agoWoops read past that part. I'd love an electric Mazda3 too.
- robotresearcher 3y agoThe Tesla Model 3 is surprisingly barebones. The display/infotainment has unnecessary extras, but the car has wheels, seats, a stereo, and AC, sitting on a battery. Pair your phone with BT and you'll never touch the infotainment again. It's not cheap, but it's not overcomplicated in daily use if you ignore the infotainment.
- bumby 3y agoGenuinely curious: do they have crank windows? Manual seat adjustment?
- electrondood 3y agoNo.
- photonbeam 3y agoI guess you could aftermarket install that if you like
- bumby 3y agoI think that gets to the original point that even cars described as "barebones" have a lot of electronics in them.
- brucethemoose2 3y agoIIRC the model 3 is lighter than other EVs. Perhaps that is why. EVs kinda follow the "tyrrany of the rocket equation" because so much weight is their batteries (aka their rocket fuel). Taking a few pounds of features off also saves some battery that is no longer needed.
- CorrectHorseBat 3y agoUnless you want to turn on your wipers or the fog lights. It's better than before witg the latest update but the experience still sucks, especially the fog lights. I don't understand how that got past safety checks.
- sokoloff 3y agoCooled seats are just a couple of fans, a switch, and perforations in the leather. In some climates, that’s totally worth the modest expense and minuscule (usually zero) maintenance.
- greedo 3y agoAnd you can pry my heated seats away from my cold, dead body. Between lower back pain and cold midwest winters, they're my favorite car feature.
- RajT88 3y ago> and definitely no elaborate, janky, hilariously expensive infotainment system I mean, I would want one of those, but just one I'm in complete control over. A lightly De-Googled Android would be just fine.
- brucethemoose2 3y agoThat would be simple an inexpensive though. A family jaguar had an absolutely enormous computer unit that had to get replaced, all for... A absolutely horrible infotainment system that literally singlehandedly drags down the consumer reports rating
- irrational 3y agoSame with TVs. I just want a decent dumb TV with HDMI inputs. But it is basically impossible to find a new non-smart TV.
- brucethemoose2 3y agoI am theoretically OK with smart TVs because there is a real advantage to fancy upscaling/interpolating/tonemapping ASICs like they ship with now. The HDMI link limits you in some respects, and the downstream devices just dont have that kind of horsepower (or have extreme difficulty displaying legal HDR content, in the case of PCs). The awful UIs and spam though... Yeah, make it dumber please.
- ex3ndr 3y agoSo, like tesla model 3 or y?
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- vachina 3y agoAutomobiles have matured to a point where the only things manufacturers can compete on are flashy shiny things, kinda like phones nowadays.
- wilg 3y agoThis stuff is probably 10 pounds and $500
- bumby 3y agoJust the powered seat option on the Mustang Mach E is a $1500 add-on. Add memory capability is $1500 more. BlueCruise is $2100. I don't know about the weight claim, but the price estimate doesn't seem too far off.
- wilg 3y agoI guess I was thinking materials cost and that it wouldn’t translate to purchase price.
- bumby 3y agoMy understanding is that a lot of profit is derived from trim packages, implying the cost to consumer is heavily inflated for those options. The difference with premium packages can approach 50% of the base model cost (although that usually goes beyond electronics)
- sz4kerto 3y agoMotorised seats were the single fixed requirement when we bought our car. That’s because we only have one car, my wife and me drives it similarly often.
- nindalf 3y agoWhen I hear this I’m reminded of surveys asking people how the government should spend its money. A majority will say cut spending, but wouldn’t agree on what to cut spending on. “I’m ok with spending on defence, social security and education” while another wants spending only on unemployment, health care and policing. That’s the paradox where a supermajority supports cutting spending and “streamlining” government but there isn’t majority support for cutting any one thing. So it is with cars. You want a “tablet mount and good AC. Maybe power windows and nice speakers”. Some other consumer will say “I can’t get around without GPS so a good maps app on a large screen is non negotiable but get rid of everything else.” And so on. To make a car that appeals to everyone, you have to put most features in. Kinda like an American Congress Omnibus Bill.
- technotarek 3y agoI hear your point, but the given example? GPS? Does anyone prefer an auto manufacturers software GUI over the GUI of their phone? CarPlay and the Android equivalent for the win.
- jcpst 3y agoThe kind of places I like to vacation commonly have no cell service. The built in GPS works pretty good without cell service. Google/Apple maps fail in this scenario.
- twothamendment 3y agoI don't buy that. I live and recreate in an area where cell service is bad to non-existent. I navigate with Google maps all the time. The key is downloading offline maps. I've got multiple states on my phone and they take up surprisingly little space. I still like my nav in the vehicle because of the larger screen, but I never use it to navigate.
- Kye 3y agoI would do this even if I used the on-board GPS. I wouldn't be in the car 100% of the time, so having downloaded maps on the phone is handy.
- scottmcdot 3y agoI am hoping that EV conversions will lead to an "open source" approach to cars, where there will be recycled, old chassis stripped of anything proprietary and installed with standardised control chips. If this means government regulation and a 110km/h baked-in speed limit, I would happily compromise. I'm already noticing something similar occur with bicycles, where there are advocates [1] and [2] of non-proprietary bike parts. [1] https://www.youtube.com/@durianriders https://www.youtube.com/@durianriders [2] https://www.youtube.com/@PathLessPedaledTV https://www.youtube.com/@PathLessPedaledTV
- yootyootr 3y agoI went a long way down this route a year or so ago, having found an absolutely perfect 1986 porsche 911 "donor car," however the amount of regulation the car needed to comply with, the engineering time and the expense of the motors, batteries and controllers (that would have to be custom made to fit the car) meant that I was going to spend a quarter million all in. I could have saved maybe a third of that taking a used car off a scrapheap, but then it defeats the point of ending up with a car I actually wanted to drive.
- ulfw 3y agoHow would an entertainment system, a mini-A/C in a set and a trunk motor plus some extremely low weight sensor and lights shave off 900lbs? I'm with your sentiment, but let's keep it real please.
- gambiting 3y agoThat exists - it's called a VW e-UP(along with its sisters - Seat Mii Electric and Skoda Citigo EV). Super basic, analogue gauges, it has a phone mount instead of an infotainment system....you hop in, turn the key(!) and drive. 160 miles range, can rapid charge, easily fits 4 adults or in our case 2 adults, baby seat, pram and Costco shopping. I love that car more than I love our 400bhp Volvo - it just works, gets us everywhere in our daily life, and costs absolutely nothing to drive. And yes, it has A/C, electric windows, and even heated seats. I'm keeping this car forever, absolutely not interested in any future replacement with VW's ID.1 and such, I know they will be packed with crappy tech that will drive me mad.
- onion2k 3y agoAnd I will take the 900lbs and $10k+ that shaves off, thank you. If a manufacturer can save 900lbs they'll just put in a bigger battery instead. People are anxious about range, and manufacturers sell more long range cars. And if they can knock $10k off the bill of materials they'll just make $10k more profit on the vehicle. The choices that go into building a car are about driving mass market sales and increasing the bottom line. They aren't about catering to specific user needs.
- dannersy 3y agoAfter working software side in automotive, a lot of the features you stated are completely different areas of the company. This could be part of the problem, since they don't think in terms of one cohesive product and try to jam as many features as they can into a vehicle. Without getting into the details, automotive acts like a start up with money and no idea what to actually build. Even worse, they have established leadership who in all their hubris thinks they can navigate development in bleeding edge technology they haven't the first idea on how to go about it. A feature in the infotainment system was my responsibility. I was writing services to consume opt-in data and give user feedback. They pivoted the tech available to me for development six times in a six month span when my deadline was around eight months. I couldn't get anyone to understand that good software takes time. Apparently the automotive veterans around me said that, "this is just how it is" and my resignation followed shortly after. But all this jank shit and half baked design of what you get as a package deal in your vehicle is the result of an industry that is woefully behind in terms of a well operating "tech" company. Those features you claim to want to get rid of are the same features that allow them to claim they are "luxury" and to justify the cost of a vehicle that probably should have taken a fraction of the effort and cost to make with any sort of competency. This is ultimately why Tesla is a crying shame and I wonder what it would have looked like without Elon's interference.
- pers0n 3y agoExactly, the more bells and whistles the more can go wrong. The basic model is good when it comes to cars
- vlucas 3y agoYou just described a Honda Civic. EV cars are not quite there yet on price and economies of scale, so they have to have all the "luxury" frills to justify the $10-15k higher price tag vs the same ICE car. Something closer to what you want will come eventually though. We're just still early in the EV market as a % of overall vehicles sold. Prices have already come down a lot and will continue to do so in the future.
- nonrepeating 3y agoI recently bought a Chevy Bolt that pretty much meets these criteria. It’s a fine car, without many frills, and about $10K less than a basic Tesla Model 3.
- JohnFen 3y agoToss in "no phoning home" and that's a car that I would absolutely consider buying. I am not aware of any electric cars on the market right now that I would be willing to buy.
- itsoktocry 3y ago>Just put that engineering into the suspension and steering, please. Don't worry, modern manufacturers have this figured out, too. But there are tradeoffs: do you want comfort, or performance? You can't have both.