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Apple Vision Pro – Why It May Be Lousy for Watching Movies on a Plane

108 points by FrojoS 3y ago

RockRobotRock 3y ago
semi-related, the xreal (previously nreal) air are amazing for this
thunkshift1 3y ago
People are going to trash the vision pro for the next couple of years. In the next 5 years or so its going to be apples best selling product to date.
theshrike79 3y ago
> In the past 25 years, many companies have introduced headsets with increasingly better displays. According to some reports, the installed base of VR headsets will be ~25 million units in 2023. Yet I have never seen anyone on an airplane or a train wear a head-mounted display. Has the author seen anyone ever wear a head mounted display anywhere outside of their living room?
- deleted 3y ago
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- throwaway2990 3y ago
  Is this not referring to headrest mounted displays. The one mounted in the back of the seats?
  - cwxm 3y ago
    no, it’s referencing VR headsets
    - throwaway2990 3y ago
      Yeah I thought it might be a typo.
  - Karunamon 3y ago
    The term of art for VR/AR headsets is "head mounted display", or HMD.
- jawilson2 3y ago
  I have never seen anyone wear a head mounted display anywhere, period. Not at work (finance, Chicago), commuting or travelling, at home, etc. Are you saying this is actually a thing?
  - macintux 3y ago
    I’ve seen one, a couple of days after the Apple keynote, sitting in the cafeteria at work. I’m not sure whether I was more susceptible to noticing it thanks to the AVP.
  - retrac 3y ago
    They are used in niche applications. All in a somewhat similar way, in my opinion: precision technical work. Where you need free movement of your head but also need urgent real-time updates, or a diagram or secondary view, of what you're working on. Fighter pilots, surgeons, underwater divers working on complex machinery. I've always figured they will stay largely restricted to those niches. But cost coming down might see new applications.
  - mrtranscendence 3y ago
    I've seen one used at work for R&D demo purposes, but aside from that I don't think I've ever noticed anyone using one while out and about (Cincinnati, OH). Certainly never in transit or on an airplane.
- moi2388 3y ago
  No, but then again I have never seen people drag their desktops with them, yet desktops are still quite popular
- furyofantares 3y ago
  Yeah, the paragraph you quoted feels heavily designed to sound convincing but isn't very honest. For most of the past 25 years there haven't been 25 million headsets, and the headsets that did exist weren't standalone. It's simply 0% surprising that I never saw anyone watch a movie in VR on a plane before 2020. A more honest way to make the point would be to say there are 10 million Quest 2's, and have you ever seen someone use in to watch a movie on a plane in the last 2 years? I will admit that, in the few plane rides I've taken in the last few years, I have not.
  - crooked-v 3y ago
    I've thought about it with my Quest 2, but decided against it because of the bulk of the headset and controllers when it comes to just carrying it around, the clumsiness of using the controllers in an airline seat (even a nice one), the difficulty of easily switching in/out if someone needs my attention, and how it's a pain in the ass to get media files on to the device. The Vision Pro has seemingly solved those issues so handily that I absolutely would have brought it if I had one in the same circumstances.
    - furyofantares 3y ago
      Yep. I don't know if I'd do it with an Apple Vision either but I do know almost for sure that I wouldn't with a Quest 3 because of the controllers. Whether there's other reasons that will prevent me from doing it is unknown to me.
  - mrguyorama 3y ago
    The main point is that what apple has demonstrated has been possible since the 90s for just a couple hundred dollars, yet nobody cared. Hell, I used to wish for one as a kid, but now that I have a real VR headset, I know it wouldn't have been useful.
    - furyofantares 3y ago
      It absolutely hasn't been possible to watch a movie on a plane in VR since the 90s for a couple hundred dollars. There's zero surprise that in 1990 nobody saw anyone watching a movie in VR on a plane because it was not remotely possible. The main point may have some validity, supporting it with over the top misleading arguments just because they sound like slam dunks is dishonest.
5350-uiop-1130 3y ago
there's going be a stigma to wearing this anywhere in public imo. conspicuous consumption dialed up to 11. unless you're in business class.
- SideburnsOfDoom 3y ago
  A seat on a long-haul flight is short on personal space, it is pretty much "I'm in public, but I'd rather not be". So wearable devices and sleep masks that signal "leave me alone" are quite common already. Creating "virtual personal space" doesn't seem like a bad idea.
  - 5350-uiop-1130 3y ago
    > Creating "virtual personal space" doesn't seem like a bad idea. it's a luxury that many can't afford. "i'm forced to sit among the riff raff of economy so i'm wearing an expensive headset to avoid them"
    - SideburnsOfDoom 3y ago
      There are many good ideas that many can't afford, there's no contradiction here. long-haul economy flights aren't luxury, but neither are they poverty. If I have to long-haul economy, then I usually create virtual personal space by splashing out $10 on some kindle books, and when my eyes finally glaze over, a sleep mask as a cheaper VR headset and "leave me alone" signal.
  - mrguyorama 3y ago
    "Being" in whatever virtual world you want isn't going to stop the person next to you from being rude and intruding in your space.
- Yujiro 3y ago
  When I look around in the economy class (HKG-CDG), many people are sitting here with iPads Pro or MacBooks. The financial difference to the VisionPro is not that huge.
jsheard 3y ago
The article focuses on movie viewing but this is just as applicable to the concept of using it as a virtual workstation monitor (or several), the effective resolution of the virtual monitor is tied to how much of your field of view it covers. Even if the headset can resolve ~4K on a giant screen that fills your entire field of view, that's not going to be comfortable or ergonomic for a workstation monitor, and as you scale it down in virtual space it drops to an effective 1440p... 1080p... 720p... Especially for Apple enthusiasts who have been spoiled by >200dpi laptops and >450dpi phones, I think the practical resolution you get out of a "4K per eye" headset is going to underwhelm.
- nordsieck 3y ago
  > Even if the headset can resolve ~4K on a giant screen that fills your entire field of view, that's not going to be comfortable or ergonomic for a workstation monitor Could you elaborate on this a bit? I know that most people use a 24"-30" monitor, but there are plenty of people who want max screen real estate and either use a large TV, or multiple monitors which add up to a large TV in size. I don't see a lot of difference between what you're describing and using a 48" TV as a monitor. The reviews of people who have tried this suggest that it many not be the best for gaming, but for productivity and watching video, it's pretty great.
  - fkyoureadthedoc 3y ago
    If I understand correctly they are saying the headset is the 4k screen, and then you are taking a subset of that and creating a floating monitor on it, thus not having the full 4k dedicated to whatever you are doing on that floating monitor inside the AR environment.
    - coffeebeqn 3y ago
      I mean sure but this is quite unimaginative thinking. Why would you use a VR workspace as just a virtual desk and monitor? I would love to have just VSCode on my main “monitor” for example and then my music can be out of sight to my right or left that I can turn to if I ever need to change it. Right now I have so much packed in the browser tabs and windows open on my OS. Just basic apps like notes and calendar would be much better in a “spatial” OS
mensetmanusman 3y ago
How compatible would wearing this be with a high quality noise canceling headset? Or does the AVP have the ability to drown out the airplane droning with noise cancelling built in?
- manuelflara 3y ago
  In the Keynote, when they talk about the "use it on an airplane" use case, they specifically said you'll need to Airpods (Pro) for noice cancellation. One has to assume any bluetooth set would work as well
selfmodruntime 3y ago
How are people forgetting that watching a movie on the plane works perfectly fine with any tablet and a set of wireless earphones??
- switchstance 3y ago
  Ever have a sex scene pop up and have a child sitting next to you?
- ralfd 3y ago
  Sure, but I dislike backseat/sideseat watchers. For example I would be to self-consious to watch Game of Thrones / House of the Dragon on the plane, because of sudden nudity or bloody violence.
  - PaulHoule 3y ago
    Reminds me of the time I was watching Strike Witches on the bus.
- jackpeterfletch 3y ago
  Coming up to long/medium flights I've often thought, cool - a period of distraction free time, I can read, watch films, write, play video games. In reality, it always sucks for those things. Crap in seat displays, crook neck on a tablet/book, no comfortable typing position, etc. I mean it it works, but I wouldn't say its ideal - particularly in cattle class. So weather this is the solution or not, I don't know, but think theres definitely _something_ in a compact, portable 'Head Up - Hands Down' device form factor.
  - ghaff 3y ago
    I find a tablet works pretty well for reading or watching movies. (And, really, planes are the main place I use mine.) I never try to take my laptop out though; it's too awkward to type.
- HDThoreaun 3y ago
  Sure that's fine. It's not a good experience though, merely acceptable.
AndrewKemendo 3y ago
I just want to reinforce that head worn AR or VR are so radically different user experiences that almost everything is surprisingly counter intuitive or magnitudes harder than you anticipate. The fact that we keep beating the same paths either means we’re crazy or there’s actually gold at the end of this rainbow somewhere.
noodlesUK 3y ago
I think it’s possible that Apple has managed what is necessary (or nearly managed it), as they’re marketing this as a productivity device, which arguably wants higher resolution than a movie. I do feel like Apple not releasing real specs is somewhat worrying, but I guess we will find out soon enough. Does the SDK reveal anything about the resolution or FOV?
jmuguy 3y ago
I feel like you could hop in a time machine and read something similar about the first iPhone, comparing it to the existing smartphones at the time. "No physical keyboard? Wow, ok Apple!". Its definitely possible that the Vision Pro will be a dud, but it seems odd to assume that Apple hasn't verified basic things about the product like "is watching a movie a good experience".
- user3939382 3y ago
  I still want a physical keyboard :(
- Schroedingers2c 3y ago
  With their cash-pile they could have even rented a private plane just to test the Vision Pro on a plane and make sure it's a good experience.
  - catach 3y ago
    Apple already rents or probably owns private jets for their executives. https://qz.com/work/1167463/apple-is-forcing-ceo-tim-cook-to-fly-in-a-private-jet-for-business-and-personal-use https://qz.com/work/1167463/apple-is-forcing-ceo-tim-cook-to...
- thunky 3y ago
  Every criticism of the Apple Vision is met with this same empty defense of "remember the iphone", instead of an actual response to the criticism.
  - Karunamon 3y ago
    Every criticism of the Apple Vision is, at this point in time, pure speculation. As such, they are both inherently low-value as well as uninformed. The time for this type of talk will be when people actually get their hands on the device. Seriously, the headline here is why something "may" be lousy for watching movies.
reliablereason 3y ago
A big issue on other headsets is the hedsets inertial tracking when it is used on airplanes or cars. The entire envoriment is moving at high speed and the inertial measurement unit in the headset tracks movements based on acceleration and deceleration. Small changes in the aircrafts speed in various axes tend to cause tracking issues. I guess this could be fixed with a higher reliance on camera traking, but i think it is still a unsolved problem.
- jffry 3y ago
  This other comment [1] says Apple claims to have specifically worked on that problem. My assumption would indeed be that they're fusing inputs from IMU and external cameras to help it work on planes. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36430885 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36430885
typon 3y ago
Disappointed by the discussion so far. The response seems to be "Trust Apple". The OP's claims are more theoretical and apply to any headset - is there a decent rebuttal of this article? (I am not an expert, I just want good information)
- allenu 3y ago
  It's incredibly frustrating to see a lack of serious discussion of the product here. Any skepticism is met with blind faith that Apple can pull this off and just to sit and wait until the product ships before criticizing. (Meanwhile, a lot of people are freely speculating what amazing experiences this product will allow them to have, having never tried the shipped product either.) The kguttag.com blog posts were the first time I've seen someone raise interesting questions about the feasibility of the product and try to poke holes in them. Yes, he's using product shots and statements from Apple to speculate what the product's limitations are, but this guy appears to have knowledge about this space himself, so he's familiar with the difficulties of building AR and VR headsets.
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pxx 3y ago
I've worn an Oculus Quest 2 on an airplane to watch 3d movies. It works fine. This article is way too deep of a dive on non-issues. * Sure, you don't get the full resolution. The apps typically put you in a virtual movie theatre and "waste" pixels on your environs. But people watch 720p content all the time! Would I want this to be my only media experience? No. Is it better than your tiny phone or cheap tablet on your tray table? Yes. * The 6dof tracking is totally off because the cameras can't see the fact that you're moving and you just end up shifting wildly. You can turn it off and go back to accelerometer-based head tracking and it works fine (modulo landing and takeoff, and in those regimes you just need to reset the viewport every so often). I would recommend you turn off 6dof before you get on the plane though; it's wild trying to do it on the plane.
- madaxe_again 3y ago
  I’ve worn a Sony glasstron to watch movies on a planes, back in the Stone Age, and given that DVD at 480p was the pinnacle of quality at the time, it also worked just fine — as long as I didn’t move my head.
- tyingq 3y ago
  > But people watch 720p content all the time! I had the same reaction, and the article only says that the effective resolution, accounting for their "pixels per degree", is something less than 1080p. Which sort of implies it is better than 720p...somewhere between the two. Plus whatever benefit blocking out the things around you in the plane has. I'd much rather hear some reviews of the experience from run of the mill people that don't have much experience with VR. I suppose the article does, though, at least set a reasonable expectations bar.
  - deleted 3y ago
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  - Pyramus 3y ago
    My interpretation is that it is some sort of cognitive bias, which is very common: Because A is better than B, we start to think of B as not good, while in reality B is still good and A is just better. In particular A may only be marginally better, or only be better on paper, according to an irrelevant metric. I see this come up a lot in hardware discussions (Megapixels come to mind) and manufacturers love to jump on this effect.
dumpster_fire 3y ago
I'm torn. Someone wearing a gigantic pair of VR goggles on a plane will indeed look ridiculous. Not too mention how obnoxious it looks. But on the other hand, if you gave me one on the plane, I'm definitely putting it on throughout a 14h flight. Anything to let me escape the reality of flying long haul Economy.
- senttoschool 3y ago
  Believe it or not, Airpods used to look ridiculous. I wore one in 2017 and people starred at me in Silicon Valley.
- PaulHoule 3y ago
  2h of battery life will get you 1/7th of the way through that flight. Maybe you can plug it in though. It’s certainly not something you can use all day. To get a jump on Apple Vision development I picked up a Hololens 1 and it also has 2 hour battery life on Ebay although right now I don’t know if I can stand to wear it for that long. The weird thing is that even after using it for 20 minutes I could not see computer screens the same way, I was already starting to want to drag windows off the monitor and have them hanging in space, do a ‘flower’ gesture to open the Windows menu, etc…
  - maxlamb 3y ago
    You can plug its battery to a USB port while using it (according to Apple) so since most plane have charging ports next to every seat it doesn't look like battery capacity will be an issue on (most) planes. Just keep it plugged in while using it.
    - ollien 3y ago
      Those USB ports probably don't supply more than 5W. You almost certainly need a full 120V outlet. These do exist on planes, though, just not all.
      - PaulHoule 3y ago
Zetobal 3y ago
I love how he bases everything on marketing images do you really believe the fov will be 16:9...
the_real_sparky 3y ago
I see nobody around me at concerts wearing AirPod Pro 2s, even though they are undoubtedly the best musical experience you can have without destroying your ear drums (in the adaptive transparency mode). I expect that one day I’ll go to a concert and everybody will be wearing them. Hopefully with a synchronized ultra-low latency broadcast option direct from the house mix (hint hint to any Apple employees) to deal with the garbage sound at some areas in arenas. Adoption of new hardware seems to always be very slow, then all at once.
- jerojero 3y ago
  I do see people in concerts wearing airpods pro. I would assume they use them with transparency mode to lower the environment sound so they don't go deaf. I mean, I have a pair of musician earplugs for that reason.
- doix 3y ago
  > I see nobody around me at concerts wearing AirPod Pro 2s, even though they are undoubtedly the best musical experience you can have without destroying your ear drums (in the adaptive transparency mode). Have you tried this? Can the AirPod Pro 2s block high frequency sound well? I actually vaguely worked in the vicinity of where the active noise cancelling tech was developed. Blocking higher frequencies was always a big problem. Unfortunately I left that area a while ago now and haven't really kept up with the developments. I got a pair of the first gen pros for free, and I couldn't imagine wearing them at a concert. They'd sometimes end up amplifying random noises when I was walking on the street, I'd be scared of them going haywire in a concert. I always wear musician earplugs at concerts, but now I'm kind of interested in trying the new pros. I would be worried of them getting knocked out though.
  - the_real_sparky 3y ago
    The 2’s adaptive transparency is a huge step up from the 1.
terhechte 3y ago
In the "The Talk Show" Interview after WWDC [1], Mike Rockwell from Apple explained how they specifically engineered the Vision Pro to work very well for watching movies on planes. Here's a copy from the YouTube-generated transcript: [1] https://daringfireball.net/2023/06/the_talk_show_live_from_wwdc_2023 https://daringfireball.net/2023/06/the_talk_show_live_from_w... --- ...all these cameras to do that and um and the other thing is interesting and you may or may not have seen it in the in the keynote because we can also do this on a plane which uh when you for those who are you know in this kind of space like that's not an easy thing to do because planes kind of like turn and fly and move around and you know the IMU on the system how does it know what to do in that case because it doesn't have a fixed inertial space so there's some magic going on there but you can get that same level of stability when you use it on a plane which means that you know when you're at 40 000 feet and you know the baby's crying next to you and you really kind of want to be somewhere else you can be uh
- Cthulhu_ 3y ago
  Wow, when written out like that it's really hard to follow what they're saying.
  - SheinhardtWigCo 3y ago
    We utilize an array of cameras for stabilization, which you may have seen during our keynote presentation. Another fascinating aspect is our ability to replicate this process on a plane. For those familiar with the field, you'll understand that this is not a trivial task given the constant motion and changing orientations of an airplane. The system's Inertial Measurement Unit (IMU) faces a challenge in these scenarios due to the absence of a fixed inertial space. However, we've developed some innovative solutions to ensure a similar level of stability, even when used on an airplane. This means that, even at 40,000 feet, amidst distractions such as a crying baby nearby, our system can transport you to a more pleasant environment. (courtesy of you-know-what)
    - detourdog 3y ago
      Inertial guidance systems have been using visual reference to verify gyroscopic readouts since the 50's. I see that quote as saying the visionPro verifies what the camera sees and what the IMU is describing to arrive at a realistic interpretation. Forgive me if that wasn't a question.
repler 3y ago
I suspect they can still cram more pixels into this thing but it would have inflated the purchase price pretty noticeably. Apple likes to iterate with their hardware, so I have no doubt they can get to where they need to be pretty easily if people buy and enjoy the current iteration.
ethbr0 3y ago
It's always nice to see actual numbers in a debate! (and hat tip to Thad Starner [0] and Haynes) If you take nothing else away from this: - Try to keep detail and gaze in the 10° to 30° range (from view center) to limit fatigue - People prefer moving their head to moving their eyes, for any lengthy amount of time And also this awesome chart, which I always use when moving and TV positioning: https://i0.wp.com/kguttag.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/HDTV-view-distance-chart-copy-1.png?w=776&ssl=1 https://i0.wp.com/kguttag.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/HDT... [0] If he and his grad students still teach it, the GT "Rapid Prototyping" course is awesome. Or as the joke went, "Learn just enough EE for IED assembly" (just kidding, FBI! And also, steel wool + 9v battery + timer/receiver)
- leecarraher 3y ago
  Agreed, great article and figures. I'm guessing from the comments no one actually read through it.
tlogan 3y ago
The main reason people don't want to wear these on planes is because they look funny. Plus, they can mess up your hair, like my wife first noticed :) Also, we need movies which are made for VR.
- throwuwu 3y ago
  Immersive movies are gimmicky. When you add all of the things that make it an enjoyable experience it just becomes a video game. If you don’t then it’s just a theme park ride where you’re sitting in a cart being wheeled around while things happen around you. Movies in VR are enjoyable when the effort is put into the theatre experience surrounding the movie and the social experience of watching a movie with other people sitting next to you.
- ladberg 3y ago
  Does anyone actually care about their looks on a plane? I can't imagine prioritizing what other plane passengers think of me over my personal comfort and ability to get through sitting in a cramped seat all day...
- spacedcowboy 3y ago
  Honestly, I really don't care what other people think of me on a plane. I'm quiet, keep to myself, hope others have the same level of consideration towards me, but I don't care if you judge me for wearing a headset. Maybe I've actually reached that halcyon stage of life where I've run out of fucks to give about the trivial shit.
HumblyTossed 3y ago
We'll still probably see a lot of these on airplanes. Especially from the type of people who want other people to know they spent $3500 on something to watch movies on an airplane with.
- boomboomsubban 3y ago
  And I bet in ~50% of situations they'll turn into $3500 eye masks.
m3kw9 3y ago
It’s subjective, but if you are ok watching a movie with it in your house, which is an AVP selling point, it would work anywhere because you can use the exact virtualized environment anywhere
- m3kw9 3y ago
  In fact, Delta airline may offer a virtualized business class seat to use
asylteltine 3y ago
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simontheowl 3y ago
This whole blog is just a regurgitation of surface-level wikipedia knowledge. All of these issues are very well known in the industry. Asking to solve all of them, perfectly, at once, is clear indication of someone who's never done product development.
- fomine3 3y ago
  As who don't work in industry (99.999%), it's quite informative blog.
- raesene9 3y ago
  Out of curiosity, did you look at the About section of the website that the article is from? https://kguttag.com/about-karl-guttag/ https://kguttag.com/about-karl-guttag/
  - eutropia 3y ago
    Work Summary Date: 2018-06 to present Organization: RAVN Title: Cheif Science Officer Summary: RAVN is working on augmented reality headsets for military and first responder applications ... Not the GP, but it looks like they work for someone who makes a competing product. A competing product not backed by Apple's absurd R&D budget.
    - raesene9 3y ago
      I believe the author has an extensive background in product development in the area, which is why I was surprised that GGP thought they'd never done it before.
- ddalex 3y ago
  The guy (Karl Guttag) also writes the wikipedia on these subjects
- whynotminot 3y ago
  Yeah, these kind of people are the worst in any kind of product ideation session. Nothing is ever worth doing to them because all they do is point out minute flaws the whole time. Contrarianism taken to a level beyond useful devils advocate. The other obnoxious thing here is that he thinks he’s being novel? Like Apple hasn’t considered any of these points over this headset’s near decade-long gestation period? Ultimately though I’ll at least give him credit for putting himself out here so publicly. Plenty of people are harboring private doubts, but he’s setting himself up here for potential posterity, up there with all the people who said the original iPhone would be a failure.
gsibble 3y ago
When will people realize this is just a v0.1 product? It'll still produce something new and exhilarating. Shitting on new technology is a horrible new trend.
rokweom 3y ago
">It may shock many VR game players that want 120+ degree FOVs, but SMTPE, which sets the recommendations for movie theaters, says the optimal viewing angle for HDTV is only 30°" The reason VR enthusiasts want wide FOVs is not because they want to watch movies stretched to 120°. Nobody does that. They want wide FOVs because even at relatively high FOV, like the 106 of Quest Pro, the edges of the display are still easily visible and the image does not fill eye's FOV fully. Yes, the resolution of what we can see towards the edges of our vision are much lower than what we can see in the center, but it's about getting rid of the visible boundry that messes with immersion.
- gpm 3y ago
  And it's also ok if the pixels-per-degree (PPD) towards the edges is lower. Which makes PPD analysis based on counting pixels suspect. Good optics can cheat by moving pixels from the peripheral field of view to the central field of view. Simulavr claims to go from 24.48 PPD (pixels / field of view) to 35.5 PPD (actual pixels per degree near the centre) by doing this. They also have a great blogpost on it: https://simulavr.com/blog/ppd-optics/ https://simulavr.com/blog/ppd-optics/
dd_xplore 3y ago
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ytdytvhxgydvhh 3y ago
> Steve Jobs with the iPhone 6 called 300 pixels per inch at reading distance, which works out to ~60ppd), “retinal resolution.” Jobs died in 2011, the iPhone 6 came out in 2014.
yieldcrv 3y ago
cool story, I’ll still do it I’m imagining the day when my earbuds fall out at max volume and the flight attendant hears faint but loud moaning and I casually confirm that I’m interested in hot tea and they smile, I smile, the person seated next to me laughs in shock, and we go about our business
s1mon 3y ago
I worked on mechanical engineering and ID for some 3D video glasses in the mid-2000s. One of the supposed use cases was watching movies on a plane. As part of the project we tried to test out that hypothesis by having users watch something (I think it was Avatar) while in a limo driving down 280 (a fairly smooth highway in the Bay Area). One of the subjects had to pull over and vomit. Turns out he was a former fighter pilot. The product found a niche as remote googles for FPV (first person video) drone pilots, but was not successful otherwise. It had a very narrow field of view and the aperture was small, so getting aligned to even see anything was challenging. I still remain skeptical that movies on a plane will really work out, but I have more recently tried out some VR experiences which blew my mind and made me much more positive about the whole field. [0] [1] I'm also cautiously excited by the orders of magnitude improvements that Apple as made in resolution, field of view, and latency for passthrough. [0] https://phi.ca/en/carne-y-arena/ https://phi.ca/en/carne-y-arena/ [1] https://phi.ca/en/events/space-explorers-the-infinite/ https://phi.ca/en/events/space-explorers-the-infinite/
eutropia 3y ago
This same author has appeared on HN no less than 3 times for different articles about why the headset that they haven't seen in person is going to have serious hypothetical issues. And none of those articles have been convincing, because they've all come across as "here are some standard problems, slathered up with technical jargon, in XR: the VP will DEFINITELY SUFFER from these, even though I've never used it" Wait til the thing comes out, use it, tear it down - whatever - but provide real facts to back up your assertions.
sod 3y ago
It's not VR though. Nearly all demos showed windows being projected into your surroundings. Cutting yourself off is a physical knob, and even then close objects will fade into your view. This is not like VR at all. This is more like looking at a screen in front of you. The nausea problems are caused because your body getting different signals then your eyes. Similar like reading a book in a car. But with apple vision, everything is anchored to the outside world. So reading a book in a car with apple vision while looking straight ahead may be way less vomit inducing as reading normally. My guess is, the same goes for in flight. I'm sceptical as well. But apple has a pretty good track record in sweeping into a field that consisted of 20 years of half-assery and overengineer a few key aspects they deem most important.
BirAdam 3y ago
I would argue, that as with any new product, the technology needs to be in the hands of both consumers and developers. If there is genuine value to be had, it will be found through the market as developers make stuff they think is cool, and the people vote with dollars and installs as to what they agree is cool. Apple threw a lot of stuff at the wall, providing different use cases, and those may be correct or incorrect. As usual, if people like something that an app developer made more than the Apple stuff, Apple will purchase the app developer's tech and integrate it. This isn't that complex a thing. Whether or not people ultimately want to strap a computer their faces is my biggest question. I have no desire to do so, but I am also not your average consumer.
danabrams 3y ago
The complaint that at ideal viewing angles, the resolution will only be 720p is silly. 720p is fine for watching movies, even if it's not home theater perfect. But it's absolutely fine and way better than the alternative of watching on a terrible IFE seatback (which probably gets the aspect ratio wrong)

108 points by FrojoS 3y ago

semi-related, the xreal (previously nreal) air are amazing for this

People are going to trash the vision pro for the next couple of years. In the next 5 years or so its going to be apples best selling product to date.

theshrike79 3y ago

> In the past 25 years, many companies have introduced headsets with increasingly better displays. According to some reports, the installed base of VR headsets will be ~25 million units in 2023. Yet I have never seen anyone on an airplane or a train wear a head-mounted display. Has the author seen anyone ever wear a head mounted display anywhere outside of their living room?

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throwaway2990 3y ago
Is this not referring to headrest mounted displays. The one mounted in the back of the seats?
- cwxm 3y ago
  no, it’s referencing VR headsets
  - throwaway2990 3y ago
    Yeah I thought it might be a typo.
- Karunamon 3y ago
  The term of art for VR/AR headsets is "head mounted display", or HMD.
jawilson2 3y ago
I have never seen anyone wear a head mounted display anywhere, period. Not at work (finance, Chicago), commuting or travelling, at home, etc. Are you saying this is actually a thing?
- macintux 3y ago
  I’ve seen one, a couple of days after the Apple keynote, sitting in the cafeteria at work. I’m not sure whether I was more susceptible to noticing it thanks to the AVP.
- retrac 3y ago
  They are used in niche applications. All in a somewhat similar way, in my opinion: precision technical work. Where you need free movement of your head but also need urgent real-time updates, or a diagram or secondary view, of what you're working on. Fighter pilots, surgeons, underwater divers working on complex machinery. I've always figured they will stay largely restricted to those niches. But cost coming down might see new applications.
- mrtranscendence 3y ago
  I've seen one used at work for R&D demo purposes, but aside from that I don't think I've ever noticed anyone using one while out and about (Cincinnati, OH). Certainly never in transit or on an airplane.
moi2388 3y ago
No, but then again I have never seen people drag their desktops with them, yet desktops are still quite popular
furyofantares 3y ago
Yeah, the paragraph you quoted feels heavily designed to sound convincing but isn't very honest. For most of the past 25 years there haven't been 25 million headsets, and the headsets that did exist weren't standalone. It's simply 0% surprising that I never saw anyone watch a movie in VR on a plane before 2020. A more honest way to make the point would be to say there are 10 million Quest 2's, and have you ever seen someone use in to watch a movie on a plane in the last 2 years? I will admit that, in the few plane rides I've taken in the last few years, I have not.
- crooked-v 3y ago
  I've thought about it with my Quest 2, but decided against it because of the bulk of the headset and controllers when it comes to just carrying it around, the clumsiness of using the controllers in an airline seat (even a nice one), the difficulty of easily switching in/out if someone needs my attention, and how it's a pain in the ass to get media files on to the device. The Vision Pro has seemingly solved those issues so handily that I absolutely would have brought it if I had one in the same circumstances.
  - furyofantares 3y ago
    Yep. I don't know if I'd do it with an Apple Vision either but I do know almost for sure that I wouldn't with a Quest 3 because of the controllers. Whether there's other reasons that will prevent me from doing it is unknown to me.
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  The main point is that what apple has demonstrated has been possible since the 90s for just a couple hundred dollars, yet nobody cared. Hell, I used to wish for one as a kid, but now that I have a real VR headset, I know it wouldn't have been useful.
  - furyofantares 3y ago
    It absolutely hasn't been possible to watch a movie on a plane in VR since the 90s for a couple hundred dollars. There's zero surprise that in 1990 nobody saw anyone watching a movie in VR on a plane because it was not remotely possible. The main point may have some validity, supporting it with over the top misleading arguments just because they sound like slam dunks is dishonest.

5350-uiop-1130 3y ago

there's going be a stigma to wearing this anywhere in public imo. conspicuous consumption dialed up to 11. unless you're in business class.

SideburnsOfDoom 3y ago
A seat on a long-haul flight is short on personal space, it is pretty much "I'm in public, but I'd rather not be". So wearable devices and sleep masks that signal "leave me alone" are quite common already. Creating "virtual personal space" doesn't seem like a bad idea.
- 5350-uiop-1130 3y ago
  > Creating "virtual personal space" doesn't seem like a bad idea. it's a luxury that many can't afford. "i'm forced to sit among the riff raff of economy so i'm wearing an expensive headset to avoid them"
  - SideburnsOfDoom 3y ago
    There are many good ideas that many can't afford, there's no contradiction here. long-haul economy flights aren't luxury, but neither are they poverty. If I have to long-haul economy, then I usually create virtual personal space by splashing out $10 on some kindle books, and when my eyes finally glaze over, a sleep mask as a cheaper VR headset and "leave me alone" signal.
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  "Being" in whatever virtual world you want isn't going to stop the person next to you from being rude and intruding in your space.
Yujiro 3y ago
When I look around in the economy class (HKG-CDG), many people are sitting here with iPads Pro or MacBooks. The financial difference to the VisionPro is not that huge.

jsheard 3y ago

The article focuses on movie viewing but this is just as applicable to the concept of using it as a virtual workstation monitor (or several), the effective resolution of the virtual monitor is tied to how much of your field of view it covers. Even if the headset can resolve ~4K on a giant screen that fills your entire field of view, that's not going to be comfortable or ergonomic for a workstation monitor, and as you scale it down in virtual space it drops to an effective 1440p... 1080p... 720p... Especially for Apple enthusiasts who have been spoiled by >200dpi laptops and >450dpi phones, I think the practical resolution you get out of a "4K per eye" headset is going to underwhelm.

nordsieck 3y ago
> Even if the headset can resolve ~4K on a giant screen that fills your entire field of view, that's not going to be comfortable or ergonomic for a workstation monitor Could you elaborate on this a bit? I know that most people use a 24"-30" monitor, but there are plenty of people who want max screen real estate and either use a large TV, or multiple monitors which add up to a large TV in size. I don't see a lot of difference between what you're describing and using a 48" TV as a monitor. The reviews of people who have tried this suggest that it many not be the best for gaming, but for productivity and watching video, it's pretty great.
- fkyoureadthedoc 3y ago
  If I understand correctly they are saying the headset is the 4k screen, and then you are taking a subset of that and creating a floating monitor on it, thus not having the full 4k dedicated to whatever you are doing on that floating monitor inside the AR environment.
  - coffeebeqn 3y ago
    I mean sure but this is quite unimaginative thinking. Why would you use a VR workspace as just a virtual desk and monitor? I would love to have just VSCode on my main “monitor” for example and then my music can be out of sight to my right or left that I can turn to if I ever need to change it. Right now I have so much packed in the browser tabs and windows open on my OS. Just basic apps like notes and calendar would be much better in a “spatial” OS

mensetmanusman 3y ago

How compatible would wearing this be with a high quality noise canceling headset? Or does the AVP have the ability to drown out the airplane droning with noise cancelling built in?

manuelflara 3y ago
In the Keynote, when they talk about the "use it on an airplane" use case, they specifically said you'll need to Airpods (Pro) for noice cancellation. One has to assume any bluetooth set would work as well

selfmodruntime 3y ago

How are people forgetting that watching a movie on the plane works perfectly fine with any tablet and a set of wireless earphones??

switchstance 3y ago
Ever have a sex scene pop up and have a child sitting next to you?
ralfd 3y ago
Sure, but I dislike backseat/sideseat watchers. For example I would be to self-consious to watch Game of Thrones / House of the Dragon on the plane, because of sudden nudity or bloody violence.
- PaulHoule 3y ago
  Reminds me of the time I was watching Strike Witches on the bus.
jackpeterfletch 3y ago
Coming up to long/medium flights I've often thought, cool - a period of distraction free time, I can read, watch films, write, play video games. In reality, it always sucks for those things. Crap in seat displays, crook neck on a tablet/book, no comfortable typing position, etc. I mean it it works, but I wouldn't say its ideal - particularly in cattle class. So weather this is the solution or not, I don't know, but think theres definitely _something_ in a compact, portable 'Head Up - Hands Down' device form factor.
- ghaff 3y ago
  I find a tablet works pretty well for reading or watching movies. (And, really, planes are the main place I use mine.) I never try to take my laptop out though; it's too awkward to type.
HDThoreaun 3y ago
Sure that's fine. It's not a good experience though, merely acceptable.

AndrewKemendo 3y ago

I just want to reinforce that head worn AR or VR are so radically different user experiences that almost everything is surprisingly counter intuitive or magnitudes harder than you anticipate. The fact that we keep beating the same paths either means we’re crazy or there’s actually gold at the end of this rainbow somewhere.

noodlesUK 3y ago

I think it’s possible that Apple has managed what is necessary (or nearly managed it), as they’re marketing this as a productivity device, which arguably wants higher resolution than a movie. I do feel like Apple not releasing real specs is somewhat worrying, but I guess we will find out soon enough. Does the SDK reveal anything about the resolution or FOV?

jmuguy 3y ago

I feel like you could hop in a time machine and read something similar about the first iPhone, comparing it to the existing smartphones at the time. "No physical keyboard? Wow, ok Apple!". Its definitely possible that the Vision Pro will be a dud, but it seems odd to assume that Apple hasn't verified basic things about the product like "is watching a movie a good experience".

user3939382 3y ago
I still want a physical keyboard :(
Schroedingers2c 3y ago
With their cash-pile they could have even rented a private plane just to test the Vision Pro on a plane and make sure it's a good experience.
- catach 3y ago
  Apple already rents or probably owns private jets for their executives. https://qz.com/work/1167463/apple-is-forcing-ceo-tim-cook-to-fly-in-a-private-jet-for-business-and-personal-use https://qz.com/work/1167463/apple-is-forcing-ceo-tim-cook-to...
thunky 3y ago
Every criticism of the Apple Vision is met with this same empty defense of "remember the iphone", instead of an actual response to the criticism.
- Karunamon 3y ago
  Every criticism of the Apple Vision is, at this point in time, pure speculation. As such, they are both inherently low-value as well as uninformed. The time for this type of talk will be when people actually get their hands on the device. Seriously, the headline here is why something "may" be lousy for watching movies.

reliablereason 3y ago

A big issue on other headsets is the hedsets inertial tracking when it is used on airplanes or cars. The entire envoriment is moving at high speed and the inertial measurement unit in the headset tracks movements based on acceleration and deceleration. Small changes in the aircrafts speed in various axes tend to cause tracking issues. I guess this could be fixed with a higher reliance on camera traking, but i think it is still a unsolved problem.

jffry 3y ago
This other comment [1] says Apple claims to have specifically worked on that problem. My assumption would indeed be that they're fusing inputs from IMU and external cameras to help it work on planes. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36430885 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36430885

typon 3y ago

Disappointed by the discussion so far. The response seems to be "Trust Apple". The OP's claims are more theoretical and apply to any headset - is there a decent rebuttal of this article? (I am not an expert, I just want good information)

allenu 3y ago
It's incredibly frustrating to see a lack of serious discussion of the product here. Any skepticism is met with blind faith that Apple can pull this off and just to sit and wait until the product ships before criticizing. (Meanwhile, a lot of people are freely speculating what amazing experiences this product will allow them to have, having never tried the shipped product either.) The kguttag.com blog posts were the first time I've seen someone raise interesting questions about the feasibility of the product and try to poke holes in them. Yes, he's using product shots and statements from Apple to speculate what the product's limitations are, but this guy appears to have knowledge about this space himself, so he's familiar with the difficulties of building AR and VR headsets.

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pxx 3y ago

I've worn an Oculus Quest 2 on an airplane to watch 3d movies. It works fine. This article is way too deep of a dive on non-issues. * Sure, you don't get the full resolution. The apps typically put you in a virtual movie theatre and "waste" pixels on your environs. But people watch 720p content all the time! Would I want this to be my only media experience? No. Is it better than your tiny phone or cheap tablet on your tray table? Yes. * The 6dof tracking is totally off because the cameras can't see the fact that you're moving and you just end up shifting wildly. You can turn it off and go back to accelerometer-based head tracking and it works fine (modulo landing and takeoff, and in those regimes you just need to reset the viewport every so often). I would recommend you turn off 6dof before you get on the plane though; it's wild trying to do it on the plane.

madaxe_again 3y ago
I’ve worn a Sony glasstron to watch movies on a planes, back in the Stone Age, and given that DVD at 480p was the pinnacle of quality at the time, it also worked just fine — as long as I didn’t move my head.
tyingq 3y ago
> But people watch 720p content all the time! I had the same reaction, and the article only says that the effective resolution, accounting for their "pixels per degree", is something less than 1080p. Which sort of implies it is better than 720p...somewhere between the two. Plus whatever benefit blocking out the things around you in the plane has. I'd much rather hear some reviews of the experience from run of the mill people that don't have much experience with VR. I suppose the article does, though, at least set a reasonable expectations bar.
- deleted 3y ago
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- Pyramus 3y ago
  My interpretation is that it is some sort of cognitive bias, which is very common: Because A is better than B, we start to think of B as not good, while in reality B is still good and A is just better. In particular A may only be marginally better, or only be better on paper, according to an irrelevant metric. I see this come up a lot in hardware discussions (Megapixels come to mind) and manufacturers love to jump on this effect.

dumpster_fire 3y ago

I'm torn. Someone wearing a gigantic pair of VR goggles on a plane will indeed look ridiculous. Not too mention how obnoxious it looks. But on the other hand, if you gave me one on the plane, I'm definitely putting it on throughout a 14h flight. Anything to let me escape the reality of flying long haul Economy.

senttoschool 3y ago
Believe it or not, Airpods used to look ridiculous. I wore one in 2017 and people starred at me in Silicon Valley.
PaulHoule 3y ago
2h of battery life will get you 1/7th of the way through that flight. Maybe you can plug it in though. It’s certainly not something you can use all day. To get a jump on Apple Vision development I picked up a Hololens 1 and it also has 2 hour battery life on Ebay although right now I don’t know if I can stand to wear it for that long. The weird thing is that even after using it for 20 minutes I could not see computer screens the same way, I was already starting to want to drag windows off the monitor and have them hanging in space, do a ‘flower’ gesture to open the Windows menu, etc…
- maxlamb 3y ago
  You can plug its battery to a USB port while using it (according to Apple) so since most plane have charging ports next to every seat it doesn't look like battery capacity will be an issue on (most) planes. Just keep it plugged in while using it.
  - ollien 3y ago
    Those USB ports probably don't supply more than 5W. You almost certainly need a full 120V outlet. These do exist on planes, though, just not all.
    - PaulHoule 3y ago

Zetobal 3y ago

I love how he bases everything on marketing images do you really believe the fov will be 16:9...

the_real_sparky 3y ago

I see nobody around me at concerts wearing AirPod Pro 2s, even though they are undoubtedly the best musical experience you can have without destroying your ear drums (in the adaptive transparency mode). I expect that one day I’ll go to a concert and everybody will be wearing them. Hopefully with a synchronized ultra-low latency broadcast option direct from the house mix (hint hint to any Apple employees) to deal with the garbage sound at some areas in arenas. Adoption of new hardware seems to always be very slow, then all at once.

jerojero 3y ago
I do see people in concerts wearing airpods pro. I would assume they use them with transparency mode to lower the environment sound so they don't go deaf. I mean, I have a pair of musician earplugs for that reason.
doix 3y ago
> I see nobody around me at concerts wearing AirPod Pro 2s, even though they are undoubtedly the best musical experience you can have without destroying your ear drums (in the adaptive transparency mode). Have you tried this? Can the AirPod Pro 2s block high frequency sound well? I actually vaguely worked in the vicinity of where the active noise cancelling tech was developed. Blocking higher frequencies was always a big problem. Unfortunately I left that area a while ago now and haven't really kept up with the developments. I got a pair of the first gen pros for free, and I couldn't imagine wearing them at a concert. They'd sometimes end up amplifying random noises when I was walking on the street, I'd be scared of them going haywire in a concert. I always wear musician earplugs at concerts, but now I'm kind of interested in trying the new pros. I would be worried of them getting knocked out though.
- the_real_sparky 3y ago
  The 2’s adaptive transparency is a huge step up from the 1.

terhechte 3y ago

In the "The Talk Show" Interview after WWDC [1], Mike Rockwell from Apple explained how they specifically engineered the Vision Pro to work very well for watching movies on planes. Here's a copy from the YouTube-generated transcript: [1] https://daringfireball.net/2023/06/the_talk_show_live_from_wwdc_2023 https://daringfireball.net/2023/06/the_talk_show_live_from_w... --- ...all these cameras to do that and um and the other thing is interesting and you may or may not have seen it in the in the keynote because we can also do this on a plane which uh when you for those who are you know in this kind of space like that's not an easy thing to do because planes kind of like turn and fly and move around and you know the IMU on the system how does it know what to do in that case because it doesn't have a fixed inertial space so there's some magic going on there but you can get that same level of stability when you use it on a plane which means that you know when you're at 40 000 feet and you know the baby's crying next to you and you really kind of want to be somewhere else you can be uh

Cthulhu_ 3y ago
Wow, when written out like that it's really hard to follow what they're saying.
- SheinhardtWigCo 3y ago
  We utilize an array of cameras for stabilization, which you may have seen during our keynote presentation. Another fascinating aspect is our ability to replicate this process on a plane. For those familiar with the field, you'll understand that this is not a trivial task given the constant motion and changing orientations of an airplane. The system's Inertial Measurement Unit (IMU) faces a challenge in these scenarios due to the absence of a fixed inertial space. However, we've developed some innovative solutions to ensure a similar level of stability, even when used on an airplane. This means that, even at 40,000 feet, amidst distractions such as a crying baby nearby, our system can transport you to a more pleasant environment. (courtesy of you-know-what)
  - detourdog 3y ago
    Inertial guidance systems have been using visual reference to verify gyroscopic readouts since the 50's. I see that quote as saying the visionPro verifies what the camera sees and what the IMU is describing to arrive at a realistic interpretation. Forgive me if that wasn't a question.

repler 3y ago

I suspect they can still cram more pixels into this thing but it would have inflated the purchase price pretty noticeably. Apple likes to iterate with their hardware, so I have no doubt they can get to where they need to be pretty easily if people buy and enjoy the current iteration.

ethbr0 3y ago

It's always nice to see actual numbers in a debate! (and hat tip to Thad Starner [0] and Haynes) If you take nothing else away from this: - Try to keep detail and gaze in the 10° to 30° range (from view center) to limit fatigue - People prefer moving their head to moving their eyes, for any lengthy amount of time And also this awesome chart, which I always use when moving and TV positioning: https://i0.wp.com/kguttag.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/HDTV-view-distance-chart-copy-1.png?w=776&ssl=1 https://i0.wp.com/kguttag.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/HDT... [0] If he and his grad students still teach it, the GT "Rapid Prototyping" course is awesome. Or as the joke went, "Learn just enough EE for IED assembly" (just kidding, FBI! And also, steel wool + 9v battery + timer/receiver)

leecarraher 3y ago
Agreed, great article and figures. I'm guessing from the comments no one actually read through it.

tlogan 3y ago

The main reason people don't want to wear these on planes is because they look funny. Plus, they can mess up your hair, like my wife first noticed :) Also, we need movies which are made for VR.

throwuwu 3y ago
Immersive movies are gimmicky. When you add all of the things that make it an enjoyable experience it just becomes a video game. If you don’t then it’s just a theme park ride where you’re sitting in a cart being wheeled around while things happen around you. Movies in VR are enjoyable when the effort is put into the theatre experience surrounding the movie and the social experience of watching a movie with other people sitting next to you.
ladberg 3y ago
Does anyone actually care about their looks on a plane? I can't imagine prioritizing what other plane passengers think of me over my personal comfort and ability to get through sitting in a cramped seat all day...
spacedcowboy 3y ago
Honestly, I really don't care what other people think of me on a plane. I'm quiet, keep to myself, hope others have the same level of consideration towards me, but I don't care if you judge me for wearing a headset. Maybe I've actually reached that halcyon stage of life where I've run out of fucks to give about the trivial shit.

HumblyTossed 3y ago

We'll still probably see a lot of these on airplanes. Especially from the type of people who want other people to know they spent $3500 on something to watch movies on an airplane with.

boomboomsubban 3y ago
And I bet in ~50% of situations they'll turn into $3500 eye masks.

m3kw9 3y ago

It’s subjective, but if you are ok watching a movie with it in your house, which is an AVP selling point, it would work anywhere because you can use the exact virtualized environment anywhere

m3kw9 3y ago
In fact, Delta airline may offer a virtualized business class seat to use

asylteltine 3y ago

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simontheowl 3y ago

This whole blog is just a regurgitation of surface-level wikipedia knowledge. All of these issues are very well known in the industry. Asking to solve all of them, perfectly, at once, is clear indication of someone who's never done product development.

fomine3 3y ago
As who don't work in industry (99.999%), it's quite informative blog.
raesene9 3y ago
Out of curiosity, did you look at the About section of the website that the article is from? https://kguttag.com/about-karl-guttag/ https://kguttag.com/about-karl-guttag/
- eutropia 3y ago
  Work Summary Date: 2018-06 to present Organization: RAVN Title: Cheif Science Officer Summary: RAVN is working on augmented reality headsets for military and first responder applications ... Not the GP, but it looks like they work for someone who makes a competing product. A competing product not backed by Apple's absurd R&D budget.
  - raesene9 3y ago
    I believe the author has an extensive background in product development in the area, which is why I was surprised that GGP thought they'd never done it before.
ddalex 3y ago
The guy (Karl Guttag) also writes the wikipedia on these subjects
whynotminot 3y ago
Yeah, these kind of people are the worst in any kind of product ideation session. Nothing is ever worth doing to them because all they do is point out minute flaws the whole time. Contrarianism taken to a level beyond useful devils advocate. The other obnoxious thing here is that he thinks he’s being novel? Like Apple hasn’t considered any of these points over this headset’s near decade-long gestation period? Ultimately though I’ll at least give him credit for putting himself out here so publicly. Plenty of people are harboring private doubts, but he’s setting himself up here for potential posterity, up there with all the people who said the original iPhone would be a failure.

gsibble 3y ago

When will people realize this is just a v0.1 product? It'll still produce something new and exhilarating. Shitting on new technology is a horrible new trend.

rokweom 3y ago

">It may shock many VR game players that want 120+ degree FOVs, but SMTPE, which sets the recommendations for movie theaters, says the optimal viewing angle for HDTV is only 30°" The reason VR enthusiasts want wide FOVs is not because they want to watch movies stretched to 120°. Nobody does that. They want wide FOVs because even at relatively high FOV, like the 106 of Quest Pro, the edges of the display are still easily visible and the image does not fill eye's FOV fully. Yes, the resolution of what we can see towards the edges of our vision are much lower than what we can see in the center, but it's about getting rid of the visible boundry that messes with immersion.

gpm 3y ago
And it's also ok if the pixels-per-degree (PPD) towards the edges is lower. Which makes PPD analysis based on counting pixels suspect. Good optics can cheat by moving pixels from the peripheral field of view to the central field of view. Simulavr claims to go from 24.48 PPD (pixels / field of view) to 35.5 PPD (actual pixels per degree near the centre) by doing this. They also have a great blogpost on it: https://simulavr.com/blog/ppd-optics/ https://simulavr.com/blog/ppd-optics/

dd_xplore 3y ago

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ytdytvhxgydvhh 3y ago

> Steve Jobs with the iPhone 6 called 300 pixels per inch at reading distance, which works out to ~60ppd), “retinal resolution.” Jobs died in 2011, the iPhone 6 came out in 2014.

yieldcrv 3y ago

cool story, I’ll still do it I’m imagining the day when my earbuds fall out at max volume and the flight attendant hears faint but loud moaning and I casually confirm that I’m interested in hot tea and they smile, I smile, the person seated next to me laughs in shock, and we go about our business

s1mon 3y ago

I worked on mechanical engineering and ID for some 3D video glasses in the mid-2000s. One of the supposed use cases was watching movies on a plane. As part of the project we tried to test out that hypothesis by having users watch something (I think it was Avatar) while in a limo driving down 280 (a fairly smooth highway in the Bay Area). One of the subjects had to pull over and vomit. Turns out he was a former fighter pilot. The product found a niche as remote googles for FPV (first person video) drone pilots, but was not successful otherwise. It had a very narrow field of view and the aperture was small, so getting aligned to even see anything was challenging. I still remain skeptical that movies on a plane will really work out, but I have more recently tried out some VR experiences which blew my mind and made me much more positive about the whole field. [0] [1] I'm also cautiously excited by the orders of magnitude improvements that Apple as made in resolution, field of view, and latency for passthrough. [0] https://phi.ca/en/carne-y-arena/ https://phi.ca/en/carne-y-arena/ [1] https://phi.ca/en/events/space-explorers-the-infinite/ https://phi.ca/en/events/space-explorers-the-infinite/

eutropia 3y ago

This same author has appeared on HN no less than 3 times for different articles about why the headset that they haven't seen in person is going to have serious hypothetical issues. And none of those articles have been convincing, because they've all come across as "here are some standard problems, slathered up with technical jargon, in XR: the VP will DEFINITELY SUFFER from these, even though I've never used it" Wait til the thing comes out, use it, tear it down - whatever - but provide real facts to back up your assertions.

sod 3y ago

It's not VR though. Nearly all demos showed windows being projected into your surroundings. Cutting yourself off is a physical knob, and even then close objects will fade into your view. This is not like VR at all. This is more like looking at a screen in front of you. The nausea problems are caused because your body getting different signals then your eyes. Similar like reading a book in a car. But with apple vision, everything is anchored to the outside world. So reading a book in a car with apple vision while looking straight ahead may be way less vomit inducing as reading normally. My guess is, the same goes for in flight. I'm sceptical as well. But apple has a pretty good track record in sweeping into a field that consisted of 20 years of half-assery and overengineer a few key aspects they deem most important.

BirAdam 3y ago

I would argue, that as with any new product, the technology needs to be in the hands of both consumers and developers. If there is genuine value to be had, it will be found through the market as developers make stuff they think is cool, and the people vote with dollars and installs as to what they agree is cool. Apple threw a lot of stuff at the wall, providing different use cases, and those may be correct or incorrect. As usual, if people like something that an app developer made more than the Apple stuff, Apple will purchase the app developer's tech and integrate it. This isn't that complex a thing. Whether or not people ultimately want to strap a computer their faces is my biggest question. I have no desire to do so, but I am also not your average consumer.

danabrams 3y ago

The complaint that at ideal viewing angles, the resolution will only be 720p is silly. 720p is fine for watching movies, even if it's not home theater perfect. But it's absolutely fine and way better than the alternative of watching on a terrible IFE seatback (which probably gets the aspect ratio wrong)