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Whistleblower drops 100 GB of Tesla secrets to German news site
- buildbot 3y agoI avoid driving anywhere near Tesla’s, especially tailing them. Phantom braking is not okay.
- George83728 3y agoI treat them like semi-trucks on the highway. Pass them or let them pass you, but don't loiter alongside, behind or in front of one.
- bboygravity 3y agoI treat them like the safest cars to be around. Because statistically, they are?
- viraptor 3y agoThat's not proven as far as I know, unless you've got stats? (And not the stats from their website - those are not comparable)
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago> And not the stats from their website There is a reason it is said, "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics." Statistically, there's a ~7% chance I won't die because ~7% of all humans who have ever lived haven't died.
- adversaryIdiot 3y agoif you are on the inside at least... But yeah i think they tend to have better track records than human drivers.
- ethbr0 3y agoThere's a difference between safety and consistency.
- belorn 3y agoAccording to statistics that Tesla publish. I would like to see mercedes publish their own statistics on their FSD. Given the tight constraints where they allow self driving, they could easily claim 100% safety record and thus infinitive more safe than any other manufacturer. It would be misleading, but statistically it would be the truth (any accidents could be said to be outside the constraint and thus will not count). Personally I would only really trust such statistics if insurance companies would reflect that in the premium. Somehow I doubt they would be willing to cut the fee based on what Tesla claims.
- kwhitefoot 3y agoCan someone present evidence that Teslas are more expensive to insured than other comparable vehicles? Along with evidence that the difference is because of safety rather than cost of repairs?
- olyjohn 3y agoTesla has their own insurance because people were complaining about high rates. Why else would they come up with their own insurance?
- kwhitefoot 3y ago> Why else would they come up with their own insurance? If they had evidence that their cars were less likely to be involved in accidents then it would pay them to set up an insurance company and charge just below the usual rates. Even if they are merely as safe as other cars then Tesla could provide insurance at lower prices because they need only break even and they have better statistics.
- yumraj 3y agoCitation needed, Musk’s tweet doesn’t qualify.
- mardifoufs 3y agoHope this link posted further down the thread does qualify though. https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/tesla/model+y/46618 https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/tesla/model+y/46618
- olyjohn 3y agoThat's not a great idea. The driver is still in control of the car and is no better than anybody else, and maybe even not paying attentnion because some think autopilot is self driving. You should treat all other traffic with the same defense.
- valine 3y agoWhy are you loitering beside other cars? This is a good safety practice regardless of the car’s make and model.
- pc86 3y agoIt's a shame this is getting downvoted because it's true. In any level of traffic except stop-and-go--and even then to a large extent--you should be doing everything within your power to either pass the cars on your right, and/or move over to let cars pass you on the left. It is a vanishingly small number of scenarios where you are keeping pace with a car next to you and you're not in the wrong. This isn't just at high speed or on highways, any two-land road operates (or is designed to operate) this way.
- jacquesm 3y agoThat's not the same everywhere in the world though, and even in places where it is strictly passing on the left (or on the right in the UK, Japan and a few other places) 'keep your lane' tends to be the rule if the right hand lane is also moving at the speed limit (so you can't legally pass). That way the carrying capacity of the road is higher. But when traffic is less dense 'station keeping' should be avoided at all times and if someone moves into my 'dead zone' or just to the left of me I'll gradually slow down to force them to finish their overtake.
- withinboredom 3y ago> 'keep your lane' tends to be the rule if the right hand lane is also moving at the speed limit (so you can't legally pass). Why are you in the lefter lane if you can't pass? I've been in rush hour (where keep-to-the-right-unless-passing is very strictly enforced) in bumper-to-bumper traffic and the left two (out of 6) are completely empty and everyone is doing 'around' the speed limit. Some are in the right lane doing a few below the limit, some are in the left-most lane doing a few above. Occasionally, someone who is late to work, emergency services, or whatever goes flying by in one of the left-most lanes.
- misiti3780 3y agophantom breaking isnt a thing in 2023. it used to be a problem, it's not anymore if you have HW3
- McSwag 3y agoSpoken by someone who clearly doesn’t own or drive a Tesla. Phantom braking is very much STILL an unsolved problem.
- misiti3780 3y agoI own a tesla, im on fsd 14.2 though. maybe it's still an issue on auto-pilot. i have no had an issue with phantom breaking in over a year.
- uturingmachine 3y agoThis is not true, I purchased a Model 3 brand new in 2021; it has HW3 and it absolutely does phantom braking regularly on road trips. This is on US interstates.
- jacquesm 3y agoWhy do you keep driving it? I had a car that did this to me twice and got rid of it, the first time could have been a glitch but twice is simply broken and dangerous. The dealer said the car was fine.
- MortimerDukePhD 3y ago[dead]
- cypress66 3y agoAll car brands ADAS are imperfect. If it phantom brakes you just push the accelerator, or simply don't use the ADAS. You can drive the car normally, you aren't forced to use ADAS if you don't like it.
- bottlepalm 3y agoYou shouldn't tail any car in general. There's a lot more 'real' braking out there than 'phantom' braking.
- buildbot 3y agoSure, but an unexpected full ABS lock when you can see nothing in front of the tesla is going to be yard for most to react quickly too even at a decent distance. 10 second follow distances are only possible in most metros during very light traffic.
- robertlagrant 3y agoYou only need 2 seconds to be safe. It's longer than you think.
- andybak 3y ago3 is the guidance in the UK at least
- robertlagrant 3y ago> You should ... allow at least a two-second gap between you and the vehicle in front on high-speed roads and in tunnels where visibility is reduced. The gap should be at least doubled on wet roads and up to ten times greater on icy roads Highway code rule 126[0] says 2? [0] https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/general-rules-techniques-and-advice-for-all-drivers-and-riders-103-to-158 https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/general-rules-t...
- andybak 3y agoOh. I stand corrected.
- robertlagrant 3y ago
- xenospn 3y agosadly this is virtually impossible in Los Angeles.
- asdff 3y agoThe Tesla drivers in LA are like an upper echelon of terrible Tesla drivers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yd0IpJFSZ10 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yd0IpJFSZ10
- izzydata 3y agoAgreed. With human drivers you can, in most cases, see their intent with the way they move. With tesla or other self driving systems it is a black box that is way less predictable.
- asdff 3y agoI avoid them too. Erratic drivers too. I'm not sure if its them coming out of autopilot back into control or just that's what happens when you have a lead foot and a car that goes to 60mph in 3 seconds entirely silently.
- GaryNumanVevo 3y agoAny car with regenerative braking is obnoxious, by federal law they aren't required to flash the brake lights when decelerating, ONLY when they're applying the physical brake and not when the car is regenerating, etc.
- noveltyaccount 3y agoI don't know about the law, but that's not true of Teslas. Deceleration triggers brake lights. Here's one example where a guy tests it https://youtu.be/dmptMElBpjI https://youtu.be/dmptMElBpjI
- oittaa 3y agoI agree, non-Teslas should be banned just for that reason. On top of that literally every other brand is also more dangerous to drive[0]. 0: https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/tesla/model+y/46618 https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/tesla/model+y/46618
- zeeZ 3y agoThis is not true for the EU. > 0,7 m/s² and ≤ 1,3 m/s² The signal may be generated. > 1,3 m/s² The signal shall be generated. https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2015/2364/oj https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2015/2364/oj
- 99_00 3y ago>found a disturbing trend of brushing off customers complaining about dangerous Autopilot glitches while covering the company’s ass. The article doesn't present any evidence or argument to support it's own thesis. Everything in it sounds like my experience dealing with any corperation.
- arbitrage 3y ago> Customers that Handelsblatt spoke to have the impression that Tesla employees avoid written communication. “They never sent emails, everything was always verbal,” says the doctor from California, whose Tesla said it accelerated on its own in the fall of 2021 and crashed into two concrete pillars. I mean, that's pretty suspicious right there.
- bboygravity 3y agoYou're confirming the point of the commenter that you're replying to?
- 99_00 3y ago>that's pretty suspicious right there. It seems suspicious to you because you assume it's not standard industry practice. But that assumption is not in evidence. They have the internal communications and this is the most incriminating thing they could come up with?
- nvrmnd 3y agoI have heard from former Twitter employees that this was very much the policy after the Musk takeover there. Nothing is ever put in writing if it can possibly be avoided.
- morkalork 3y agoNever write in an email what you can say on the phone, never say on the phone what you can say in person.
- TheAlchemist 3y ago
- advael 3y agoGatekeep, gaslight, girlboss The official policy to deprive customers and victims of information as much as possible is shocking from the standpoint of being flagrantly, cynically customer-hostile to the point of probable illegality, but it's right out of both Musk's normal playbook and that of his erstwhile colleagues at e.g. Paypal For me, cars cross a very key danger threshold, which I express like this: "I am trusting my life to this device by using it. I must trust that it will not malfunction". We are in an era where cars have computer overrides, so that standard needs to be applied to the security and reliability of the computer inside. We are also in an era where computers sold by corporate robber-barons (IE most major corporations) will routinely not merely malfunction, but explicitly, intentionally betray the interests of their end-users for increasingly marginal gains for the company Even if you trust the company that sold your car's computer, do you trust their security? All their employees? When we are putting computers in devices, like cars, where them operating as expected is life-or-death, those computers need to be auditable by independent experts and controllable by the end-user. To be clear, that unambiguously refers to the person or persons trusting - with their lives - that car operating safely and responding to their commands. We need to mandate open-source, user-owned computers in devices this dangerous, period.
- jacquesm 3y agoThe bigger problem is that I am trusting my life to you using it. This goes way beyond defective product and normal risk, the fact that these things happen endangers everybody on the road, not just those that decided to throw in their lot with Tesla.
- advael 3y agoAlso a very good point, which makes an even stronger case for throwing the regulatory kitchen sink at this bullshit
- panarky 3y agoIf I refuse to use a product because I think it's too dangerous, but I die anyway because of your use of the dangerous product, does my estate sue you personally for gross negligence, or must my estate sue the maker of the product? Naturally if my estate sues you personally, your defense would be that you didn't know the product was dangerous. Perhaps if the whistleblower's leak is widely publicized, that would weaken your defense. Certainly the leak should weaken the maker's ability to claim they didn't know.
- abirch 3y agoUnfortunate thing for Tesla is we have the Affective Fallacy where if we like Tesla we overweight its benefits and underweight its errors.
- 1970-01-01 3y agoWhat's the name for that fallacy where we do not know what went right, and we pessimize to assume the worst? I.E. How many times did Tesla prevent a crash? Assume none?
- dmbche 3y agoDon't know that it's a fallacy, it's more that the question you ask is impossible to answer - it's impossible to have a number for how many crashes were prevented. But we do have a number for crashes caused by. So we work off of that - if Telsa want's to argue they are safer, I'd love for them to devise some way to prove it, but I can't see that happening.
- ertian 3y agoYou can figure out statistically if Teslas are systematically avoiding some types of accidents.
- 1970-01-01 3y agoForbes did this with stats. They concluded autopilot was not causing accidents. https://www.forbes.com/sites/bradtempleton/2020/10/28/new-tesla-autopilot-statistics-show-its-almost-as-safe-driving-with-it-as-without/?sh=63771b171794 https://www.forbes.com/sites/bradtempleton/2020/10/28/new-te...
- sidibe 3y agoIt seems like comparing AP to anything but regular cruise control miles is not very fair and is going to inflate its safety. From that link, it's pretty bad if it's not even clearly better at general "highway miles" than when it's off because people are least likely to use it at the times that are much more dangerous generally, such as merging onto and off the freeway.
- throw-4e451c8 3y ago[flagged]
- jacquesm 3y agoBut what did you think of the article?
- throw-4e451c8 3y agoI first focused on adding relevant context. Also; not your monkey.
- pc86 3y agoHow is this relevant context?
- throw-4e451c8 3y agoIt's a German newspaper that has relatively recently been caught publishing nonsense about foreign competitors to German companies. See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handelsblatt#Anti-Vaccine_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handelsblatt#Anti-Vaccine_cont...
- Pxtl 3y ago[flagged]
- sidibe 3y agoNo other company/CEO can make as grandiose announcements. Their future product pipeline is worth trillions and every year there's something else they will deliver very soon that will revolutionize the world. If you've read about it in a scifi book, Tesla will announce they are working on it first.
- methodical 3y ago[flagged]
- detaro 3y agowoosh, as the kids say. Fairly sure parent is sarcastic.
- methodical 3y agoYikes, yeah- on second thought it does seem sarcastic. It's just so difficult to tell with Tesla because it certainly does have a certain portion of the population that would have posted the original comment entirely unironically.
- tylersmith 3y agoI'm pretty sure they were being sarcastic.
- valine 3y agoProbably because the world is transitioning to EVs and they have a 5ish year head start over most other automakers. There’s a long list of technologies Tesla has already shipped that other car makers are just beginning to explore. - Structural batteries - The “Octovalve” heat pump - Mega casted car frames - Their custom ML SOC The TSLA market cap is debatable, but their lead is real.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- vxNsr 3y agoAnd this the real risk of alienating a group, they’ll retaliate when they no longer feel aligned with you. Even if they’ll work for you, they won’t have the same allegiance/loyalty they had before.
- belter 3y ago"Is your data also in the Tesla files?" (German ) - https://www.handelsblatt.com/unternehmen/industrie/leseraufruf-sind-auch-ihre-daten-in-den-tesla-files-melden-sie-sich-bei-der-redaktion/29135340.html https://www.handelsblatt.com/unternehmen/industrie/leseraufr...
- chaxor 3y agoI didn't see the actual data or a link or anything to how to get it, but why on earth would it be 100GB? That seems fairly large if it's just tallying accidents and such.
- londons_explore 3y agoIf just a few of the accident reports have attached photos or videos, you'll quickly get to 100GB.
- bj-rn 3y ago"The 'Tesla Files' comprise more than 23,000 files. Some documents apparently show salaries and home addresses of more than 100,000 current and former employees. Others list presumably private mail addresses and phone numbers of customers." [...] "Due to the sheer volume and structure of the data sets, the editorial team had to make a selection of which of the more than thousand Excel tables could be taken into account in the query tool. " https://app.handelsblatt.com/unternehmen/industrie/leseraufruf-sind-auch-ihre-daten-in-den-tesla-files-melden-sie-sich-bei-der-redaktion/29135340.html https://app.handelsblatt.com/unternehmen/industrie/leseraufr...
- zizee 3y agoHow different is this from any other similar sized companies behaviour? This site doesn't seem that impartial/unbiased. From a linked article on Tesla: > It’s also worth noting that the above email was sent after 2 a.m. Pacific, which isn’t specifically relevant to the faked video. But it does make it look like Musk is a loser with no friends or anything else to do other than work. Loser.
- dmbche 3y agoIs what you raise relevant? Is it fine if everybody does it? Is the leak not real because you found a link to it on an unimpartial site? Edit:spelling
- Eisenstein 3y agoI think you meant 'biased' and not 'impartial'. I am not being pedantic; I don't want your sentence to have the wrong meaning so I am bringing it to your attention if that is the case.
- dmbche 3y agoOh no thanks! it was a typo, added un at the begining.
- dylan604 3y agoIf you can find the same information to corroborate then no, but if it's the only source... But it is one of those trends that I personally do not like either where these posts are made like it's a personal conversation between two girlfriends or whatever. There's opinion pieces and then there's this kind of I don't even know what it's called I'm so un-hip
- meowkit 3y agoThe leak can be real, but the narrative around the leak is important. My read from this link to a story about a story: ~1000 crashes related to autopilot reported for the 2.6 million autopilot enabled vehicles shipped in the reported time frame. .04% total failures. How many of these were user created and not the fault of the car? How many of the failures from the car were specific to that cars hardware vs the software? Was it a Tesla hardware failure or an OEM device failure? I’m not gonna do a full analysis, but whenever I re contextualize myself on car crash statistics I am reminded that Tesla failures represent an insignificant fraction of all failures.
- RoyGBivCap 3y agoso? They Musk open sourced tesla patents 9 years ago: https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/blog/all-our-patent-are-belong-you https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/blog/all-our-patent-are-belong-y...
- notsound 3y agoYou didn't read the article. This is mainly customer complaints, safety issues, and internal processes. Also, read the actual policy your article references; they aren't suing people for patent infringement (which is kinda cool), but they also haven't released anything. (aren't patents public?)
- jyscao 3y agoIMO Tesla would be better if they focused solely on making good EVs, rather than also trying to become the leader in self-driving. I get that they're trying to create a wider moat against their competitors, but if their self-driving software are found to have systematic failure modes in them as these internal docs seem to suggest, then that could very well do more harm to their reputation in the long run.
- metalliqaz 3y agoIt's not just the software. They are trying to make due without the kind of sensors that are required to properly sense the immediate environment (LIDAR)
- throwaway894345 3y agoThis may surprise, but LIDAR is a very recent innovation and virtually zero percent of cars (particularly historically) are LIDAR equipped. Binocular vision has a pretty impressive track record.
- RomanPushkin 3y agoThat's why I use Lyft instead of Uber. In SFBay it's often Tesla because of their business relationship, and I don't like it.
- diebeforei485 3y agoCan someone link to the source article? It is paywalled
- adultSwim 3y agohttps://pastebin.com/S49ttUqf https://pastebin.com/S49ttUqf
- jasonlfunk 3y agoWhen does a thief become a whistleblower? It seems to me that something really dangerous or illegal needs to be going on to morally justify publicly releasing a 100GB worth of (presumably unfiltered) private company data.
- sinuhe69 3y agoThe data also contains salaries information and private addresses of Tesla employees, which clearly don’t belong to the category of “whistler blower data”, even under EU laws.
- bks 3y agoIts my understanding that the vendor that they were buying LIDAR from was either slow paid or never paid - and then cut them off. This is when LIDAR became less important in their marketing spin and they said that they do not need it.
- adultSwim 3y agoSource article text, Handelsblatt: https://pastebin.com/S49ttUqf https://pastebin.com/S49ttUqf
- agnosticmantis 3y agoThe conman has already moved on from FSD to humanoid robots that can currently spread their legs with the help of 2 other people holding the robot. It’ll keep the hype up for another decade or so, and by that time there’ll be another wave he’ll masterfully ride on. Thunderf00t points to an interesting interview of karpathy where he says (truthfully) that when he joined Tesla, the cars couldn’t even follow the lines or something, yet at the same time the scam king was promising coast to coast self-driven rides. See timestamp 16:48 of the video below: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=grefAhSvcvc&t=16m48s https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=grefAhSvcvc&t=16m48s P.S. no offense to the excellent employees of Tesla who’ve achieved tremendous things, including the driver assist system. But the scammy claims of the conman in chief straddling the border of fraud and and futurism unfortunately overshadows these legitimate achievements.
- joshspankit 3y agoIs it just me, or are these numbers almost low enough to be labelled positive PR? > The Tesla files contain more than 2,400 self-acceleration complaints and more than 1,500 braking function problems, including 139 cases of unintentional emergency braking and 383 reported phantom stops resulting from false collision warnings. The number of crashes is more than 1000. A table of incidents involving driver assistance systems where customers have expressed safety concerns has more than 3000 entries. Out of millions of cars? And for the entire time Tesla’s been making cars? I’ve watched YouTube videos of a SF Tesla driver who submits one or two reports every video (autopilot wasn’t aggressive enough, or failed to navigate a complicated turn, etc). Are each of those counted in the 3000 safety concerns? I can’t even fathom any other car manufacturer having lower numbers.
- pfd1986 3y agoIn Germany alone and for a period of time.
- usr1106 3y agoNo. Despite the data being leaked to German newspaper most cases are reportedly from the US.
- MauroIksem 3y agoPeople are just not reporting them. My model 3 does something scary at least a few times a month but I've never reported any.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- infinghxsg 3y ago[flagged]
- usr1106 3y agoGerman news site is a bit misleading. Handelsblatt is the leading business newspaper in Germany. And according to the article they made significant journalist effort to confirm the authenticity of the information.
- Randomizer42 3y agoHorrible company, with a miserable CEO.
- Randomizer42 3y agoGarbage technology by a company with bunions backers.
- RickJWagner 3y agoJalopnik has been very negative in Tesla articles for several months now. (I read auto news all the time, I love cars.) I wonder if they're acting on behalf of another auto manufacturer.
- botanical 3y ago> How did the company deal with complaints? The Tesla files also provide information about this. The files show that employees have precise guidelines for communicating with customers. The top priority is obviously: offer as little attack surface as possible. For each incident there are bullet points for the “technical review”. The employees who enter this review into the system regularly make it clear that the report is “for internal use only”. Each entry also contains a note in bold type that information, if at all, may only be passed on “VERBALLY to the customer”. “Do not copy and paste the report below into an email, text message, or leave it in a voicemail to the customer,” it said. Vehicle data should also not be released without permission. If, despite the advice, “an involvement of a lawyer cannot be prevented”, this must be recorded. Customers that Handelsblatt spoke to have the impression that Tesla employees avoid written communication. “They never sent emails, everything was always verbal,” says the doctor from California, whose Tesla said it accelerated on its own in the fall of 2021 and crashed into two concrete pillars.
- todd8 3y agoTesla seems to be making progress on full self driving, but real self driving (cars without steering wheels) still seems quite distant. How will such a car respond to road workers redirecting traffic? How many times have you had to talk to someone outside of your car to obtain instructions on how to get around some obstacle, like a moving truck. I don't do such things every day or even every month, but there are occasions where it is necessary to take unmarked detours. How would a self driving car get through heavy fog or snow covered roads when there are only very difficult to decipher hints to the road edges? How will self-driving cars deal with humans that can perfectly predict their actions? I believe that bad drivers will take advantage of self-driving cars by cutting them off and failing to yield when they should. Because human drivers have a sense of self preservation we can break the rules when we are about to be car-jacked or see an impending collision coming. Imagine how easy it is to obstruct a self-driving car for nefarious reasons. I'm confident that, eventually, self-driving cars will address all of these issues to some degree, and that will mark a turning point where it is better to leave driving to the cars than average drivers. However, this doesn't mean I'm going to put my $100K car into a taxi pool to be used by (sometimes drunk) strangers; I don't buy the argument that the cost of buying such a car will pay for itself.
- 0xedd 3y ago3k complaints for 3 million cars? "Only verbal" (common practice)? Sounds like click bait more than anything.