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Majority of gig economy workers are earning below minimum wage: research

988747 4y ago
And what's wrong with that? "Gig" is not a real job, so it doesn't have to pay a real salary :) It's a temporary solution for people in-between jobs.
- HPsquared 4y ago
  Agreed, there should be an exemption for part-time work. Why is there a gulf between "unpaid" and "minimum wage" - what if someone wants to just ride the bike for fun and make a couple of pounds as a bonus?
  - johngladtj 4y ago
    That's called not having a minimum wage. Are we just now rediscovering why minimum wages are bad?
    - tpmx 4y ago
      None of the Nordic countries have a statutory minimum wage, btw. Edit: Any skeptics don't have to trust me, they also have the option to trust the International Labour Organization: https://www.ilo.org/global/topics/wages/minimum-wages/setting-machinery/WCMS_460934/lang--en/index.htm https://www.ilo.org/global/topics/wages/minimum-wages/settin...
      - matsemann 4y ago
        We don't have a general minimum wage in Norway, because we don't need them. We have strong unions that have given us good tariffs for various industries, that acts as a minimum pay for that sector. But there are some sectors (building, cleaning etc.) that do have a government set minimum pay, because they often would exploit foreign workers. Actually, our foodora bicyclists a while back formed a union, striked, and got a tariff deal. So got rid of some of the problems around their gig-work.
  - friendzis 4y ago
    What if someone is obsessed with heavy machinery, wants to try operate them for fun and maybe make a couple of pounds as a bonus? Minimum wage laws are there to prevent exactly this scenario. It is deemed better to let inefficient enterprises that cannot pay even minimum wage to implode and support unlucky people via government programs rather inefficient enterprises.
    - HPsquared 4y ago
      On the first point - why not indeed? Why ban unproductive work?
      - friendzis 4y ago
        Some companies pay minimum wage because they cannot pay more. Some companies pay minimum wage because they can not pay more. Once you allow the latter to pay less - they will, in a heartbeat. And policymakers do not want that.
      - brewdad 4y ago
        No one is banning unproductive work. You still have to pay for it though.
  - karpierz 4y ago
    What if some child wants to work in the coal mines? What if some worker wants to be paid in company scrip? Unravelling worker rights is just a race to the bottom.
sebzim4500 4y ago
Maybe I should start tipping deliveroo drivers.
- ta1243 4y ago
  We're not american.
ITB 4y ago
There’ll be a bunch of people here saying that capitalism is vicious and people should earn more. But actually what will happen is that they will get automated and then have no job. When automation is the alternative, collective bargaining is not a great option.
- HPsquared 4y ago
  Next step: ban automation.
  - toomuchtodo 4y ago
    Well, not necessarily, you simply tax it at a highly progressive rate and distribute the tax revenue as social services. Automation isn't the problem, its control and use to create systems of extraction from the disadvantaged is.
    - HPsquared 4y ago
      An automatic McDonalds is a not a system of extraction.
      - Xelynega 4y ago
        It quite literally is. A non-automated McDonalds extracts money from a certain population(the target market of the McDonald's) and funnels it to the owner, but the owner has to employ people(typically from the same area/market) to give some of that money back to. Without those jobs, money is being extracted from the target market without any being given back.
    - pessimizer 4y ago
      Never tax automation. The failure to distribute resources humanely or fairly is a failure of sympathy, conscience, and justice. Automation should make us all richer. Not having to work customer service is a blessing. Tax everybody at the rate that allows us to provide for those who are put out of work by automation, and let those who automate reap the rewards of that. It's not technology's fault that we require people to do bullshit jobs in return for bullshit pay. It's that our secular religion of protestant capitalism is severely flawed. One day, all production will be automated, and 99% of the population will still be digging holes and filling them all day in return for their rations.
KMnO4 4y ago
I can’t tell how to interpret this. Doing gig work doesn’t pay well, but respondents are doing an average of 28 hours of work per week. Something is missing from the picture. If the takeaway is that gig workers are struggling to pay living expenses, I would expect that to be reflected by working 50-60+ hours per week.
- robertlagrant 4y ago
  It's a citeable headline.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- refulgentis 4y ago
  For interpreting it, basically: - revenue = true hourly pay * hours. - statutory hourly pay = some constant set by gov't. Therefore: - given revenue less than some X, we'll name it `living expenses` - it's possible that true hourly pay < statutory hourly pay Reading your comment, you may have also meant that you're trying to pick between that interpretation, and another one, that looks like: Given: - revenue = true hourly pay * hours. - statutory hourly pay = some constant set by gov't. - true hourly pay < statutory hourly pay Proposition: - Given hours worked < Y, where Y is some range, and revenue = Z, and workers continue being alive, then perhaps the statutory hourly pay is too high? From there, to help me choose an interpretation, I'd look for more evidence of that. I'd want something damning, enough to overrule the statute / legal social contract of the population.
- wongarsu 4y ago
  Might be a sign that most people have another job and just do the gig work on the side
- Bjartr 4y ago
  Plus they say minimum wage rose just this month. I'd expect to see at least a little lag between wages that are legislated directly and those only influenced by that legislation through market pressures.
dumpsterlid 4y ago
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ETH_start 4y ago
The gig economy provides a way to mop up excess labor rendered unemployable by minimum wage/benefits laws. The people doing gig economy jobs are at the margins, due to the circumstances they find themselves in, and those gigs are a lifeline.
- balderdash 4y ago
  My experience with ride sharing is that you have the people that you just mentioned, + people doing it professionally, people doing it for fun / get out of the house make a little Extra money, and people in a short term bind that need to make some extra money
  - ETH_start 4y ago
    Yes true. I over-simplified. There are people who earn well from these types of gig markets. But it provides the flexibility to also allow those who really can't or won't find ordinary jobs - due to reasons ranging from their skill level, to their scheduling requirements - a way to earn.
    - pessimizer 4y ago
      Or reasons like the availability of gig labor, who you can pay less than normal employees.
- jasmer 4y ago
  No - the 'gig economy' provides a way to pay people substantially lower than they would have to otherwise, often lower than minimum wage, provide no benefits or long term viability, shift social spending to government, and to create an underclass of voiceless powerless serfs. The naivte here in these comments is deeply disturbing.
  - mrob 4y ago
    Social spending should be the responsibility of government. Minimum wage, like price controls, is another form of stealth welfare, with the responsibility imposed on unaccountable third parties. It would make more sense for governments to redistribute wealth directly. Minimum wage is effectively a tax on low value labor, which is obviously inefficient.
topicseed 4y ago
Key takeaways... - A study led by the University of Bristol reveals that 52% of gig workers in the UK earn below the minimum wage. - The average hourly earnings of gig workers were £8.97, approximately 15% lower than the current UK minimum wage. - Work-related insecurity and anxiety were experienced by 76% of gig workers surveyed. - Many gig workers (28%) felt their health and safety were at risk, and 25% experienced pain on the job. - Gig workers expressed the need for basic rights such as minimum wage rates, holiday and sick pay, and protection against unfair dismissal, as well as the formation of unions and platform councils to represent their interests and influence working conditions.
- remote_phone 4y ago
  The study was an internet survey with no verification and they mixed the data between a wide variety of types of remote gigs, including upwork and fiverr and the further mixed the idea of “waiting for work” which falsely decreased the average wage.
  - kranke155 4y ago
    Falsely how?
    - AnthonyMouse 4y ago
      If you're reading your personal email or watching Netflix until your phone dings, you're not getting paid for it, but why would you expect to be?
      - kranke155 4y ago
        Because someone who’s under a contract at Apple will get paid during those times? Even a freelancer like me on a higher demand profession, I get paid by day and sometimes there’s only 4 hours of work. The lack of empathy of some commenters here is truly shocking.
        3y ago
version_five 4y ago
So the median wage is the minimum wage, which sort of makes sense in terms of what would incentivize people to take a gig job over a minimum wage job. It does come with some more flexibility or course which some might be happy to trade off against absolute earnings. Takeaway to me is gig jobs are a viable alternative to minimum wage, but nothing more.
- mint2 4y ago
  I would hazard to guess many don’t have a choice due to the flexibility compared to a minimum wage job. Are they doing it out of “happiness” if a 9-5 is impossible to fit in their day?
balderdash 4y ago
“A major factor contributing to low pay rates is that this work involves spending significant amounts of time waiting or looking for work while logged on to a platform.” Well sure, if you include time not working in the denominator, the pay rate is going to be low! Seems like the title should read that gig workers would make more nominal dollars if they spent their time waiting for gig work working a minimum wage job…
- gbanfalvi 4y ago
  > Well sure, if you include time not working in the denominator, the pay rate is going to be low! So dragging around tickets in Jira and taking the next one off the backlog isn't working either?
  - refulgentis 4y ago
    Are you paid during it? Usually, that's a full-time job, i.e not compensated hourly. Alternatively, if you're not paid...I haven't heard of an employer only compensating for typing into Jira but not dragging tickets. Is there another analogy familiar to us, where we're blocked on waiting for an employer to find us work, and we're not paid during it?
    - pessimizer 4y ago
      > Usually, that's a full-time job, i.e not compensated hourly. This is the subject being discussed. Appealing to current labor conventions doesn't make any sense when talking about the problems with current labor conventions. You might as well say that tipped employees shouldn't be paid minimum wage because the rules for tipped employment allow you to pay them less than minimum wage.
    - bcrosby95 4y ago
      A full time job doesn't mean you're salary. When I worked at Macy's I was still paid when I was not helping a customer or managing stock. I was also paid for simply being there if I were needed.
systemtest 4y ago
Self-employed gig workers aren't protected against illness or unemployment. No paid time off, no sick days, no pension, no maternity leave. And on top of that the majority earn below minimum wage. Gig work is understandable for students or people who want extra income but it shouldn't be someones main source of income.
- malcolmgreaves 4y ago
  > it shouldn't be someones main source of income. Interesting, because as companies continue to find ways to pay less for their labor by moving folks from W-2 to 1099s, gig work will become a larger portion of the only kind of work available for people's main source of income. If you feel like our economy should not force folks to have gig work be their main source of income, have you ever thought about how to shape society to ensure that people have jobs with stable sources of income?
  - systemtest 4y ago
    I have to admit that I lack political knowledge for a good solution. In my opinion, if your main source of income is from one company, you should be employed and have paid sick days, paid time off, disability, unemployment and all other employee protections.
  - ryandrake 4y ago
    As long as we're shaping society, we might as well go all the way: Shape it so people don't have to perform this work ritual and earn their right to merely exist and survive.
  - nathan_compton 4y ago
    It is easy. Tax the wealthy more, make sure workers and the state own stock and receive dividends from publicly traded companies, establish a generous social welfare program, and create a job guarantee from the state at the minimum wage.
    - jsbg 4y ago
themagician 4y ago
If we are going to let this persist we should really just get rid of the minimum wage all together. Having a minimum wage for some jobs but not for others is just silly at this point.
- swarnie 4y ago
  Minimum wage does not apply to self employed people. Definitely doesn't apply to visaless drivers borrowing accounts.
- remedan 4y ago
  How is not having minimal wage for any job better than having it for only some?
- pessimizer 4y ago
  I agree; honesty is better. We should change "labor law" to "labor advice" or "labor suggestions."
- jacknews 4y ago
  When we can also get rid of 'minimum food' and 'minimum housing' and so on then we can get rid of minimum wage. Actually there is a way to satisfy the 'everything is a market' camp at the same time as treating people as, well, people, and not just some resource that should disapear if it's not in demand. Universal Equity. Not just Universal Basic Income, dispensed at the whim of government, but actual equity - everyone owns a share in the economy, whether or not they are employed by it.
  - jsbg 4y ago
    > everyone owns a share in the economy People already have that option, as long as they're ok also losing money when the economy is down.
    - jjk166 4y ago
      People have the option to buy a share of the economy assuming they have enough spare cash lying around to do so. People in most places are not currently entitled to a share of the economy. Many places, however, have set up sovereign wealth funds which do allow the population at large to benefit from the economy.
say_it_as_it_is 4y ago
Minimum wage earners who are working 40 hours a week find out that they could work half as many hours and still earn that much. They also get flexible hours and the freedom to decide what gig to do. Card-carrying Socialists are teaching them how exploited they are, by The System, encouraging unionization.
dewfaced 4y ago
For me gig work is side income. I do uber and make $25/hr. Closer to $17/hr. once I pay for gas. But I am on the luck side because I get tipped well.
- malcolmgreaves 4y ago
  > But I am on the luck side because I get tipped well That's curious! Do you know why you get tipped well?
- _joel 4y ago
  That's great but the UK isn't the US. However I do hear of people doing it here, just to be able to pay their mortgage
- pessimizer 4y ago
  How much after you depreciate the value of your car? <$15/hr?
  - mint2 4y ago
    Don’t forget taxes! <$12/hr And If they’re earning so little that taxes do not apply, chances are OUR tax money is instead funding things to help them get by so that gig companies can skirt labor laws.
nintendo1889 4y ago
Well I guess they better start living in tents, prepping, learning survival skills, and buying bitcoin! No, I am not joking: https://archive.is/ifiOt https://archive.is/ifiOt
DoreenMichele 4y ago
More than just side hustles to earn extra cash, respondents spent on average 28 hours a week undertaking gig work, comprising 60% of their total earnings. This makes me wonder what the other 40 percent of their earnings is from, how much time it takes and how well it pays.
- dmix 4y ago
  My friend is an Uber driver, he’s an immigrant from Africa and has been running a small accounting business for years. He doesn’t always have a lot of work and it can be seasonal so he uses Uber to fill the gap (allowing him to completely stop doing Uber for a month or two and come back to it). He also has small kids at home so helps with them during the day and does Uber at nights. Gig work is very flexible that way, unlike almost any other side job accessible to most people.
  - DoreenMichele 4y ago
    I've done gig work under circumstances where a normal job was simply not possible. I often earned well under minimum wage because I was sick and struggling to get anything done. I was thrilled to have the ability to earn anything and I have long voiced criticisms of this assumption that earning less than minimum wage is inherently some kind of employer abuse that must be aggressively stamped out. It's not like people are throwing money at me out of pity for my incurable condition and sad sack life story. Denying me the opportunity to choose to work part-time for sometimes less than minimum wage winds up being just a means to cut my income, not improve my life any.
    - swores 4y ago
      The problem with that thinking is that by allowing it at all you open the door to employers taking advantage of both people like you, and everyone else. Wouldn't it be better if, for people whose health/disabilities/etc make it so that nobody would hire them for minimum wage but would hire them for x% of minimum wage, that the government has a program to subsidise the cost to the employer so you still get minimum wage without becoming unemployable due to your conditions? Why do you deserve less because of health problems?
pierat 4y ago
And we're shocked... why? These aren't real contractors, with complex tasks, negotiations for 3-5x salary of a normal employee. Ive done that. No benefits , but paid EXTRAORDINARILY well, like on the range of $300/hr But "gig work companies" are about bypassing and subverting normal employment by calling it "contract work", and having NONE of the meeting of the minds of a proper contractor. And it's blatantly obvious why - it lowers cost and transfers liability to people who don't have a clue what those externalized liabilities really are.
- swores 4y ago
  It's a study of the extent to which people are being screwed over, not sure why you're acting like the fact that, depressingly, it's not surprising is a gotcha. That it is happening means we need the government (or courts, or whatever) to take action to fix it, the fact that this hasn't yet happened means that studies like this are extremely useful.
  - jjoonathan 4y ago
    The "gotcha" isn't aimed at the people doing the study or advocating for change, it's aimed at the apologists who were running around with "everyone is winning" rhetoric. There were plenty of them around here. They were very wrong about something that should have been obvious. This is all going to play out again with AI, but moreso, so it's important to keep score.
    - fnimick 4y ago
      They are not wrong. They are lying, and we know they are lying, and they know that we know they are lying, but they have to speak to the pretense of societal good in order to get business and money. Look at SBF's 'effective altruism' schtick to see this in action. Everyone involved knew it was bullshit, but it had to be said to keep the money flowing in.
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    This whole topic seems to be unnecessary and stupid. Gig workers should all be sole Proprietors of their own businesses. The only reason they aren't is because governments make it difficult to run your own business. This would solve basically all of the legal and moral problems. Gig workers would be responsible for all of their own benefits, but be able to deduct all of their business costs. They would be responsible for if their own business turns a profit or loss and if they want to continue it.
Jupe 4y ago
Are "gig" workers considered independent enterprises themselves? Do they need to pay self-employment taxes?
- bshimmin 4y ago
  They are considered to be self-employed. If they're earning more than £1000 a year, then they need to file a self-assessment tax return with HMRC, and if they're earning more than a certain amount, perhaps £12500 a year, they will need to pay income tax on those earnings (plus national insurance). Do most gig workers actually do these things? I have no idea.
fareesh 4y ago
Is gig work intended to be a substitute for employment, or a career? My impression was these jobs are for folks who need an extra income or are in a temporary rough spot in life. Does the math allow for gig workers to be paid more AND for the venture to remain profitable to a degree that reasonably satisfies investors AND consumers to pay a minimal additional amount?
- swores 4y ago
  It may or may not still be feasible for these companies if they were paying minimum wage, but that's irrelevant to the fact that minimum wage is a requirement. Doesn't matter if the worker is already earning £100k in their main job, and 5 hours of "gig economy" work, those 5 hours are still legally required to hit the minimum wage.
- lifeonlars 4y ago
  minimum wage legislation does not have an exception for those in a 'temporary rough spot' there are lots of businesses which would be profitable if they didn't have to worry about laws or regulations, but which are unviable in the real world. for example, selling methamphetamine to middle school kids in tony neighbourhoods.
- yanellena 4y ago
  A lot of these ventures aren't profitable even while paying their employees a pittance.
- brewdad 4y ago
  The fact that these job my be side gigs is irrelevant to a discussion about whether they are dodging minimum wage.
throwaway22032 4y ago
The "abstract" here for lack of better terms is extremely misleading. The minimum wage raised to approx 10.50 from 9.50 last month, but the survey was polled last year, when the minimum wage was 9.50. That makes the discrepancy shrink to approx 5% from 15%. We've had 10%+ inflation in basics in the UK so you can't really compare 2021/2022/2023 like for like without accounting for that.
abeppu 4y ago
How can we be surprised by this? Isn't this, from the companies' view, exactly what gig work is _for_. If you're offering a food delivery service, and you thought that end users + restaurants were willing to pay more than minimum wage for delivery services, you'd hire an army of minimum-wage workers and pocket the difference. If it's likely that people are willing to pay less than minimum wage for delivery services, then you've gotta design a way to pay people less than that by inventing something other than normal "employment".
pyrophane 4y ago
One thing I didn't take away from this is the extent to which gig workers they surveyed would prefer full-time employment but aren't able to find it. If someone has the opportunity to work full-time but is choosing the flexibility of gig work, then I see this as less of an issue. On the other hand, if someone is doing gig work because that is what is available to them, and they aren't able to make enough to get by despite their best effort, then something needs to change.
matt3210 4y ago
That’s the point. The system is working as intended
- oblio 4y ago
  Also, see MLM.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
chrishannah 4y ago
So what they're saying is, they want all the benefits of having a permanent full-time job, but they don't want to work permanently or full-time?
- mrkwse 4y ago
  I don't think it's a safe assumption that gig workers are typically choosing gig work over full-time contracted employment, but rather choosing gig work over unemployment/benefits.
- brewdad 4y ago
  Part-time employees are still required to be paid minimum wage.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
maxbaines 4y ago
we should all take note of this, and where we can give a meaningful tip to the workers. Every time I use a service like this I tip on average twice the delivery cost ~£5. Very few of these services are essential, there here to make our lives easier, I tip them for that.
- brewdad 4y ago
  I thought those tips don't generally make it to the workers anyway. All you are doing is subsidizing the same corporation that is taking advantage of their workers.
  - sebzim4500 4y ago
    Presumably if you tip cash it does.
  - maxbaines 4y ago
    Oh wow, i naturally presumed it was the case, about to check on that thanks for the info.
    - maxbaines 4y ago
      FYI, in the UK specifically for Uber eats 100% of tips go to drivers.
remote_phone 4y ago
Can we please delete this post? The “study” is absolute garbage. It’s an internet survey with no verification. Reading through the “study” was a complete waste of time.
- surement 4y ago
  you can flag it
eat 4y ago
That's the whole point.
bilsbie 4y ago
For drivers is this before or after vehicle depreciation, maintainemce, and insurance?
- mym1990 4y ago
  Very likely before. Generally, in the US, I have seen averages for driving a car around .50-.60 cents a mile. This includes cost of gas, the cost of maintenance, insurance, and the cost of depreciation.
neilwilson 4y ago
Bit of a pity it doesn’t go into how many of these people then claim tax credits - which tops up their earnings to a living income. ISTM that tax credits end up subsidising sub minimum wage gig workers to the benefit of the business using the gig worker.
sequoia 4y ago
Here's an interesting talk related to app workers working collectively https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8rJN4ikQhQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8rJN4ikQhQ The question I wish the authors of this paper had asked, which seems like a key question to me is: "Why do keep working on this platform if it pays so little? Why not get another job?" If it's because they cannot find any other employment and this is the only work they can find (sometimes the case for newcomers to the country etc.), then removing gig jobs would appear to result in them having no employment at all. In many cases (I might even guess "most cases") people do work through these apps because they allow a level of flexibility people cannot typically get from other jobs. If you work at Nandos you can't decide to take the morning off or work a couple extra hours during some downtime, you can't stay home a few days if your child is sick or childcare falls through and pick up working again once the disruption abates or unilaterally decide to switch from morning to evening hours for a few days. Some people just don't like dealing with coworkers and a boss. In any event, I think the "why" behind peoples' decisions to do these jobs is highly relevant, and I think that the flexibility these gigs provide should be factored in when comparing them to a job at a grocery store or something, as it seems like an apples to oranges comparison.
- ilaksh 4y ago
  Its because A) its hard to find a good job in general, B) its very hard to find a good job in a hurry, C) most people don't have much savings when they lose their job, so they need to find another one quickly), D) these jobs are VASTLY easier to get quickly than most jobs, E) these jobs don't allow for much savings or breathing room, so stopping to spend a significant amount of time looking for a different job can be at risk of not being able to pay expenses. When you are stuck in survival mode, you take what you can get. You're not picky. And they are not bad jobs in some ways.
sequoia 4y ago
Also this question seems a bit ridiculous: "I can decide the time I start and be reasonably confident of having work to undertake" If you're driving a cab, you work when people need cabs. If you're delivering food, you work during times of the day people are ordering food. This is the nature of these jobs. Does an icecream truck owner get to decide to work during colder or rainy weather because that's what he prefers? Of course not; he has to work at times and places where people are likely to purchase ice cream. It hardly seems reasonable to blame deliveroo for the fact that people tend to cluster food ordering during one or two periods of the day.
davidguetta 4y ago
Who could have thought
Krisjohn 4y ago
This is suppressing everyone's wages. Failure to address this is a government policy failure. How about we take all the existing laws designed to stop this and enforce them?

And what's wrong with that? "Gig" is not a real job, so it doesn't have to pay a real salary :) It's a temporary solution for people in-between jobs.

HPsquared 4y ago
Agreed, there should be an exemption for part-time work. Why is there a gulf between "unpaid" and "minimum wage" - what if someone wants to just ride the bike for fun and make a couple of pounds as a bonus?
- johngladtj 4y ago
  That's called not having a minimum wage. Are we just now rediscovering why minimum wages are bad?
  - tpmx 4y ago
    None of the Nordic countries have a statutory minimum wage, btw. Edit: Any skeptics don't have to trust me, they also have the option to trust the International Labour Organization: https://www.ilo.org/global/topics/wages/minimum-wages/setting-machinery/WCMS_460934/lang--en/index.htm https://www.ilo.org/global/topics/wages/minimum-wages/settin...
    - matsemann 4y ago
      We don't have a general minimum wage in Norway, because we don't need them. We have strong unions that have given us good tariffs for various industries, that acts as a minimum pay for that sector. But there are some sectors (building, cleaning etc.) that do have a government set minimum pay, because they often would exploit foreign workers. Actually, our foodora bicyclists a while back formed a union, striked, and got a tariff deal. So got rid of some of the problems around their gig-work.
- friendzis 4y ago
  What if someone is obsessed with heavy machinery, wants to try operate them for fun and maybe make a couple of pounds as a bonus? Minimum wage laws are there to prevent exactly this scenario. It is deemed better to let inefficient enterprises that cannot pay even minimum wage to implode and support unlucky people via government programs rather inefficient enterprises.
  - HPsquared 4y ago
    On the first point - why not indeed? Why ban unproductive work?
    - friendzis 4y ago
      Some companies pay minimum wage because they cannot pay more. Some companies pay minimum wage because they can not pay more. Once you allow the latter to pay less - they will, in a heartbeat. And policymakers do not want that.
    - brewdad 4y ago
      No one is banning unproductive work. You still have to pay for it though.
- karpierz 4y ago
  What if some child wants to work in the coal mines? What if some worker wants to be paid in company scrip? Unravelling worker rights is just a race to the bottom.

sebzim4500 4y ago

Maybe I should start tipping deliveroo drivers.

ta1243 4y ago
We're not american.

ITB 4y ago

There’ll be a bunch of people here saying that capitalism is vicious and people should earn more. But actually what will happen is that they will get automated and then have no job. When automation is the alternative, collective bargaining is not a great option.

HPsquared 4y ago
Next step: ban automation.
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  Well, not necessarily, you simply tax it at a highly progressive rate and distribute the tax revenue as social services. Automation isn't the problem, its control and use to create systems of extraction from the disadvantaged is.
  - HPsquared 4y ago
    An automatic McDonalds is a not a system of extraction.
    - Xelynega 4y ago
      It quite literally is. A non-automated McDonalds extracts money from a certain population(the target market of the McDonald's) and funnels it to the owner, but the owner has to employ people(typically from the same area/market) to give some of that money back to. Without those jobs, money is being extracted from the target market without any being given back.
  - pessimizer 4y ago
    Never tax automation. The failure to distribute resources humanely or fairly is a failure of sympathy, conscience, and justice. Automation should make us all richer. Not having to work customer service is a blessing. Tax everybody at the rate that allows us to provide for those who are put out of work by automation, and let those who automate reap the rewards of that. It's not technology's fault that we require people to do bullshit jobs in return for bullshit pay. It's that our secular religion of protestant capitalism is severely flawed. One day, all production will be automated, and 99% of the population will still be digging holes and filling them all day in return for their rations.

KMnO4 4y ago

I can’t tell how to interpret this. Doing gig work doesn’t pay well, but respondents are doing an average of 28 hours of work per week. Something is missing from the picture. If the takeaway is that gig workers are struggling to pay living expenses, I would expect that to be reflected by working 50-60+ hours per week.

robertlagrant 4y ago
It's a citeable headline.
deleted 4y ago
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refulgentis 4y ago
For interpreting it, basically: - revenue = true hourly pay * hours. - statutory hourly pay = some constant set by gov't. Therefore: - given revenue less than some X, we'll name it `living expenses` - it's possible that true hourly pay < statutory hourly pay Reading your comment, you may have also meant that you're trying to pick between that interpretation, and another one, that looks like: Given: - revenue = true hourly pay * hours. - statutory hourly pay = some constant set by gov't. - true hourly pay < statutory hourly pay Proposition: - Given hours worked < Y, where Y is some range, and revenue = Z, and workers continue being alive, then perhaps the statutory hourly pay is too high? From there, to help me choose an interpretation, I'd look for more evidence of that. I'd want something damning, enough to overrule the statute / legal social contract of the population.
wongarsu 4y ago
Might be a sign that most people have another job and just do the gig work on the side
Bjartr 4y ago
Plus they say minimum wage rose just this month. I'd expect to see at least a little lag between wages that are legislated directly and those only influenced by that legislation through market pressures.

dumpsterlid 4y ago

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ETH_start 4y ago

The gig economy provides a way to mop up excess labor rendered unemployable by minimum wage/benefits laws. The people doing gig economy jobs are at the margins, due to the circumstances they find themselves in, and those gigs are a lifeline.

balderdash 4y ago
My experience with ride sharing is that you have the people that you just mentioned, + people doing it professionally, people doing it for fun / get out of the house make a little Extra money, and people in a short term bind that need to make some extra money
- ETH_start 4y ago
  Yes true. I over-simplified. There are people who earn well from these types of gig markets. But it provides the flexibility to also allow those who really can't or won't find ordinary jobs - due to reasons ranging from their skill level, to their scheduling requirements - a way to earn.
  - pessimizer 4y ago
    Or reasons like the availability of gig labor, who you can pay less than normal employees.
jasmer 4y ago
No - the 'gig economy' provides a way to pay people substantially lower than they would have to otherwise, often lower than minimum wage, provide no benefits or long term viability, shift social spending to government, and to create an underclass of voiceless powerless serfs. The naivte here in these comments is deeply disturbing.
- mrob 4y ago
  Social spending should be the responsibility of government. Minimum wage, like price controls, is another form of stealth welfare, with the responsibility imposed on unaccountable third parties. It would make more sense for governments to redistribute wealth directly. Minimum wage is effectively a tax on low value labor, which is obviously inefficient.

topicseed 4y ago

Key takeaways... - A study led by the University of Bristol reveals that 52% of gig workers in the UK earn below the minimum wage. - The average hourly earnings of gig workers were £8.97, approximately 15% lower than the current UK minimum wage. - Work-related insecurity and anxiety were experienced by 76% of gig workers surveyed. - Many gig workers (28%) felt their health and safety were at risk, and 25% experienced pain on the job. - Gig workers expressed the need for basic rights such as minimum wage rates, holiday and sick pay, and protection against unfair dismissal, as well as the formation of unions and platform councils to represent their interests and influence working conditions.

remote_phone 4y ago
The study was an internet survey with no verification and they mixed the data between a wide variety of types of remote gigs, including upwork and fiverr and the further mixed the idea of “waiting for work” which falsely decreased the average wage.
- kranke155 4y ago
  Falsely how?
  - AnthonyMouse 4y ago
    If you're reading your personal email or watching Netflix until your phone dings, you're not getting paid for it, but why would you expect to be?
    - kranke155 4y ago
      Because someone who’s under a contract at Apple will get paid during those times? Even a freelancer like me on a higher demand profession, I get paid by day and sometimes there’s only 4 hours of work. The lack of empathy of some commenters here is truly shocking.
      - 3y ago

version_five 4y ago

So the median wage is the minimum wage, which sort of makes sense in terms of what would incentivize people to take a gig job over a minimum wage job. It does come with some more flexibility or course which some might be happy to trade off against absolute earnings. Takeaway to me is gig jobs are a viable alternative to minimum wage, but nothing more.

mint2 4y ago
I would hazard to guess many don’t have a choice due to the flexibility compared to a minimum wage job. Are they doing it out of “happiness” if a 9-5 is impossible to fit in their day?

balderdash 4y ago

“A major factor contributing to low pay rates is that this work involves spending significant amounts of time waiting or looking for work while logged on to a platform.” Well sure, if you include time not working in the denominator, the pay rate is going to be low! Seems like the title should read that gig workers would make more nominal dollars if they spent their time waiting for gig work working a minimum wage job…

gbanfalvi 4y ago
> Well sure, if you include time not working in the denominator, the pay rate is going to be low! So dragging around tickets in Jira and taking the next one off the backlog isn't working either?
- refulgentis 4y ago
  Are you paid during it? Usually, that's a full-time job, i.e not compensated hourly. Alternatively, if you're not paid...I haven't heard of an employer only compensating for typing into Jira but not dragging tickets. Is there another analogy familiar to us, where we're blocked on waiting for an employer to find us work, and we're not paid during it?
  - pessimizer 4y ago
    > Usually, that's a full-time job, i.e not compensated hourly. This is the subject being discussed. Appealing to current labor conventions doesn't make any sense when talking about the problems with current labor conventions. You might as well say that tipped employees shouldn't be paid minimum wage because the rules for tipped employment allow you to pay them less than minimum wage.
  - bcrosby95 4y ago
    A full time job doesn't mean you're salary. When I worked at Macy's I was still paid when I was not helping a customer or managing stock. I was also paid for simply being there if I were needed.

systemtest 4y ago

Self-employed gig workers aren't protected against illness or unemployment. No paid time off, no sick days, no pension, no maternity leave. And on top of that the majority earn below minimum wage. Gig work is understandable for students or people who want extra income but it shouldn't be someones main source of income.

malcolmgreaves 4y ago
> it shouldn't be someones main source of income. Interesting, because as companies continue to find ways to pay less for their labor by moving folks from W-2 to 1099s, gig work will become a larger portion of the only kind of work available for people's main source of income. If you feel like our economy should not force folks to have gig work be their main source of income, have you ever thought about how to shape society to ensure that people have jobs with stable sources of income?
- systemtest 4y ago
  I have to admit that I lack political knowledge for a good solution. In my opinion, if your main source of income is from one company, you should be employed and have paid sick days, paid time off, disability, unemployment and all other employee protections.
- ryandrake 4y ago
  As long as we're shaping society, we might as well go all the way: Shape it so people don't have to perform this work ritual and earn their right to merely exist and survive.
- nathan_compton 4y ago
  It is easy. Tax the wealthy more, make sure workers and the state own stock and receive dividends from publicly traded companies, establish a generous social welfare program, and create a job guarantee from the state at the minimum wage.
  - jsbg 4y ago

themagician 4y ago

If we are going to let this persist we should really just get rid of the minimum wage all together. Having a minimum wage for some jobs but not for others is just silly at this point.

swarnie 4y ago
Minimum wage does not apply to self employed people. Definitely doesn't apply to visaless drivers borrowing accounts.
remedan 4y ago
How is not having minimal wage for any job better than having it for only some?
pessimizer 4y ago
I agree; honesty is better. We should change "labor law" to "labor advice" or "labor suggestions."
jacknews 4y ago
When we can also get rid of 'minimum food' and 'minimum housing' and so on then we can get rid of minimum wage. Actually there is a way to satisfy the 'everything is a market' camp at the same time as treating people as, well, people, and not just some resource that should disapear if it's not in demand. Universal Equity. Not just Universal Basic Income, dispensed at the whim of government, but actual equity - everyone owns a share in the economy, whether or not they are employed by it.
- jsbg 4y ago
  > everyone owns a share in the economy People already have that option, as long as they're ok also losing money when the economy is down.
  - jjk166 4y ago
    People have the option to buy a share of the economy assuming they have enough spare cash lying around to do so. People in most places are not currently entitled to a share of the economy. Many places, however, have set up sovereign wealth funds which do allow the population at large to benefit from the economy.

say_it_as_it_is 4y ago

Minimum wage earners who are working 40 hours a week find out that they could work half as many hours and still earn that much. They also get flexible hours and the freedom to decide what gig to do. Card-carrying Socialists are teaching them how exploited they are, by The System, encouraging unionization.

dewfaced 4y ago

For me gig work is side income. I do uber and make $25/hr. Closer to $17/hr. once I pay for gas. But I am on the luck side because I get tipped well.

malcolmgreaves 4y ago
> But I am on the luck side because I get tipped well That's curious! Do you know why you get tipped well?
_joel 4y ago
That's great but the UK isn't the US. However I do hear of people doing it here, just to be able to pay their mortgage
pessimizer 4y ago
How much after you depreciate the value of your car? <$15/hr?
- mint2 4y ago
  Don’t forget taxes! <$12/hr And If they’re earning so little that taxes do not apply, chances are OUR tax money is instead funding things to help them get by so that gig companies can skirt labor laws.

nintendo1889 4y ago

Well I guess they better start living in tents, prepping, learning survival skills, and buying bitcoin! No, I am not joking: https://archive.is/ifiOt https://archive.is/ifiOt

DoreenMichele 4y ago

More than just side hustles to earn extra cash, respondents spent on average 28 hours a week undertaking gig work, comprising 60% of their total earnings. This makes me wonder what the other 40 percent of their earnings is from, how much time it takes and how well it pays.

dmix 4y ago
My friend is an Uber driver, he’s an immigrant from Africa and has been running a small accounting business for years. He doesn’t always have a lot of work and it can be seasonal so he uses Uber to fill the gap (allowing him to completely stop doing Uber for a month or two and come back to it). He also has small kids at home so helps with them during the day and does Uber at nights. Gig work is very flexible that way, unlike almost any other side job accessible to most people.
- DoreenMichele 4y ago
  I've done gig work under circumstances where a normal job was simply not possible. I often earned well under minimum wage because I was sick and struggling to get anything done. I was thrilled to have the ability to earn anything and I have long voiced criticisms of this assumption that earning less than minimum wage is inherently some kind of employer abuse that must be aggressively stamped out. It's not like people are throwing money at me out of pity for my incurable condition and sad sack life story. Denying me the opportunity to choose to work part-time for sometimes less than minimum wage winds up being just a means to cut my income, not improve my life any.
  - swores 4y ago
    The problem with that thinking is that by allowing it at all you open the door to employers taking advantage of both people like you, and everyone else. Wouldn't it be better if, for people whose health/disabilities/etc make it so that nobody would hire them for minimum wage but would hire them for x% of minimum wage, that the government has a program to subsidise the cost to the employer so you still get minimum wage without becoming unemployable due to your conditions? Why do you deserve less because of health problems?

pierat 4y ago

And we're shocked... why? These aren't real contractors, with complex tasks, negotiations for 3-5x salary of a normal employee. Ive done that. No benefits , but paid EXTRAORDINARILY well, like on the range of $300/hr But "gig work companies" are about bypassing and subverting normal employment by calling it "contract work", and having NONE of the meeting of the minds of a proper contractor. And it's blatantly obvious why - it lowers cost and transfers liability to people who don't have a clue what those externalized liabilities really are.

swores 4y ago
It's a study of the extent to which people are being screwed over, not sure why you're acting like the fact that, depressingly, it's not surprising is a gotcha. That it is happening means we need the government (or courts, or whatever) to take action to fix it, the fact that this hasn't yet happened means that studies like this are extremely useful.
- jjoonathan 4y ago
  The "gotcha" isn't aimed at the people doing the study or advocating for change, it's aimed at the apologists who were running around with "everyone is winning" rhetoric. There were plenty of them around here. They were very wrong about something that should have been obvious. This is all going to play out again with AI, but moreso, so it's important to keep score.
  - fnimick 4y ago
    They are not wrong. They are lying, and we know they are lying, and they know that we know they are lying, but they have to speak to the pretense of societal good in order to get business and money. Look at SBF's 'effective altruism' schtick to see this in action. Everyone involved knew it was bullshit, but it had to be said to keep the money flowing in.
- s1artibartfast 4y ago
  This whole topic seems to be unnecessary and stupid. Gig workers should all be sole Proprietors of their own businesses. The only reason they aren't is because governments make it difficult to run your own business. This would solve basically all of the legal and moral problems. Gig workers would be responsible for all of their own benefits, but be able to deduct all of their business costs. They would be responsible for if their own business turns a profit or loss and if they want to continue it.

Jupe 4y ago

Are "gig" workers considered independent enterprises themselves? Do they need to pay self-employment taxes?

bshimmin 4y ago
They are considered to be self-employed. If they're earning more than £1000 a year, then they need to file a self-assessment tax return with HMRC, and if they're earning more than a certain amount, perhaps £12500 a year, they will need to pay income tax on those earnings (plus national insurance). Do most gig workers actually do these things? I have no idea.

fareesh 4y ago

Is gig work intended to be a substitute for employment, or a career? My impression was these jobs are for folks who need an extra income or are in a temporary rough spot in life. Does the math allow for gig workers to be paid more AND for the venture to remain profitable to a degree that reasonably satisfies investors AND consumers to pay a minimal additional amount?

swores 4y ago
It may or may not still be feasible for these companies if they were paying minimum wage, but that's irrelevant to the fact that minimum wage is a requirement. Doesn't matter if the worker is already earning £100k in their main job, and 5 hours of "gig economy" work, those 5 hours are still legally required to hit the minimum wage.
lifeonlars 4y ago
minimum wage legislation does not have an exception for those in a 'temporary rough spot' there are lots of businesses which would be profitable if they didn't have to worry about laws or regulations, but which are unviable in the real world. for example, selling methamphetamine to middle school kids in tony neighbourhoods.
yanellena 4y ago
A lot of these ventures aren't profitable even while paying their employees a pittance.
brewdad 4y ago
The fact that these job my be side gigs is irrelevant to a discussion about whether they are dodging minimum wage.

throwaway22032 4y ago

The "abstract" here for lack of better terms is extremely misleading. The minimum wage raised to approx 10.50 from 9.50 last month, but the survey was polled last year, when the minimum wage was 9.50. That makes the discrepancy shrink to approx 5% from 15%. We've had 10%+ inflation in basics in the UK so you can't really compare 2021/2022/2023 like for like without accounting for that.

abeppu 4y ago

How can we be surprised by this? Isn't this, from the companies' view, exactly what gig work is _for_. If you're offering a food delivery service, and you thought that end users + restaurants were willing to pay more than minimum wage for delivery services, you'd hire an army of minimum-wage workers and pocket the difference. If it's likely that people are willing to pay less than minimum wage for delivery services, then you've gotta design a way to pay people less than that by inventing something other than normal "employment".

pyrophane 4y ago

One thing I didn't take away from this is the extent to which gig workers they surveyed would prefer full-time employment but aren't able to find it. If someone has the opportunity to work full-time but is choosing the flexibility of gig work, then I see this as less of an issue. On the other hand, if someone is doing gig work because that is what is available to them, and they aren't able to make enough to get by despite their best effort, then something needs to change.

matt3210 4y ago

That’s the point. The system is working as intended

oblio 4y ago
Also, see MLM.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

chrishannah 4y ago

So what they're saying is, they want all the benefits of having a permanent full-time job, but they don't want to work permanently or full-time?

mrkwse 4y ago
I don't think it's a safe assumption that gig workers are typically choosing gig work over full-time contracted employment, but rather choosing gig work over unemployment/benefits.
brewdad 4y ago
Part-time employees are still required to be paid minimum wage.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

maxbaines 4y ago

we should all take note of this, and where we can give a meaningful tip to the workers. Every time I use a service like this I tip on average twice the delivery cost ~£5. Very few of these services are essential, there here to make our lives easier, I tip them for that.

brewdad 4y ago
I thought those tips don't generally make it to the workers anyway. All you are doing is subsidizing the same corporation that is taking advantage of their workers.
- sebzim4500 4y ago
  Presumably if you tip cash it does.
- maxbaines 4y ago
  Oh wow, i naturally presumed it was the case, about to check on that thanks for the info.
  - maxbaines 4y ago
    FYI, in the UK specifically for Uber eats 100% of tips go to drivers.

remote_phone 4y ago

Can we please delete this post? The “study” is absolute garbage. It’s an internet survey with no verification. Reading through the “study” was a complete waste of time.

surement 4y ago
you can flag it

eat 4y ago

That's the whole point.

bilsbie 4y ago

For drivers is this before or after vehicle depreciation, maintainemce, and insurance?

mym1990 4y ago
Very likely before. Generally, in the US, I have seen averages for driving a car around .50-.60 cents a mile. This includes cost of gas, the cost of maintenance, insurance, and the cost of depreciation.

neilwilson 4y ago

Bit of a pity it doesn’t go into how many of these people then claim tax credits - which tops up their earnings to a living income. ISTM that tax credits end up subsidising sub minimum wage gig workers to the benefit of the business using the gig worker.

sequoia 4y ago

Here's an interesting talk related to app workers working collectively https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8rJN4ikQhQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8rJN4ikQhQ The question I wish the authors of this paper had asked, which seems like a key question to me is: "Why do keep working on this platform if it pays so little? Why not get another job?" If it's because they cannot find any other employment and this is the only work they can find (sometimes the case for newcomers to the country etc.), then removing gig jobs would appear to result in them having no employment at all. In many cases (I might even guess "most cases") people do work through these apps because they allow a level of flexibility people cannot typically get from other jobs. If you work at Nandos you can't decide to take the morning off or work a couple extra hours during some downtime, you can't stay home a few days if your child is sick or childcare falls through and pick up working again once the disruption abates or unilaterally decide to switch from morning to evening hours for a few days. Some people just don't like dealing with coworkers and a boss. In any event, I think the "why" behind peoples' decisions to do these jobs is highly relevant, and I think that the flexibility these gigs provide should be factored in when comparing them to a job at a grocery store or something, as it seems like an apples to oranges comparison.

ilaksh 4y ago
Its because A) its hard to find a good job in general, B) its very hard to find a good job in a hurry, C) most people don't have much savings when they lose their job, so they need to find another one quickly), D) these jobs are VASTLY easier to get quickly than most jobs, E) these jobs don't allow for much savings or breathing room, so stopping to spend a significant amount of time looking for a different job can be at risk of not being able to pay expenses. When you are stuck in survival mode, you take what you can get. You're not picky. And they are not bad jobs in some ways.

sequoia 4y ago

Also this question seems a bit ridiculous: "I can decide the time I start and be reasonably confident of having work to undertake" If you're driving a cab, you work when people need cabs. If you're delivering food, you work during times of the day people are ordering food. This is the nature of these jobs. Does an icecream truck owner get to decide to work during colder or rainy weather because that's what he prefers? Of course not; he has to work at times and places where people are likely to purchase ice cream. It hardly seems reasonable to blame deliveroo for the fact that people tend to cluster food ordering during one or two periods of the day.

davidguetta 4y ago

Who could have thought

Krisjohn 4y ago

This is suppressing everyone's wages. Failure to address this is a government policy failure. How about we take all the existing laws designed to stop this and enforce them?